The Unwritten Rules

[Circular]

So, there's been some argument recently--especially in the BGs thread--about what does and doesn't constitute a bad game. A lot of this has come from differing opinions about what the "unwritten rules" are; some people think not switching characters is bad, some people think playing too many shotos is bad, etc.

I don't think those problems can be resolved; there are too many sources of argument. For example, who's a shoto? Are Kyo and Shingo shotos, even though they don't have a fireball? What about Ryo, with the best DP in the game but a weird fireball? K'? There's a line somewhere, but different people will draw it differently. Is it okay to have two shotos on a team, or only one? Is it okay to have two, if you change which shotos you're using? If you only use two shotos every other game? We'll never work it out.

I'd suggest this: Instead of arguing about what the "unwritten rules" are, let's have a way to communicate--even with people who don't have a headset--"please stop playing this character and choose someone else next round." Some gentlemanly way to say, "I'm not having fun the way things are going right now, let's take a quick break from it next round and do something different. Then we can go back to bringing out our strongest stuff." That way we don't bring down the level of play--you can still show your best stuff on a regular basis--but those who want a little more variety can get it. I'll be the first to admit that there are times when I'd like to be able to say, "you're good, but I'd like to see how our matches go without Duo Lon from time to time."

Thoughts? Suggestions as to what we could do to send the message?

[loffter]

ill get flamed for saying this, but i know im really decent at 03. when people who arent aldegod, thoth, you (circular), etc (AKA people who i dont beat every single round) get tired of loseing, they go and set the cursor on random. so thats what you should do. if they decline, thats fine, but youll find most none rank whore rank whores will accept .. mu computer just crashed, i cant finish this post.

[SaffronsGhost]

Play the game and stop whining.

People know they are doing cheap shit if they are doing it, and they won't stop just because you *ask* them too. So yeah, just keep playing the game.

[loffter]

Play the game and stop whining.

People know they are doing cheap shit if they are doing it, and they won't stop just because you *ask* them too. So yeah, just keep playing the game.





this comeing from the guy with THAT in his sig.:karate:

[Koll]

I kinda agree with capnSRK, people know they are using cheap people for easy wins, hell who cares. They want to rnak up so bad they use Malin, Dyo etc etc etc. Even people here do it and then complain about it, just get over it >.>.

[SaffronsGhost]

My sig sums it up pretty good.

No one and nothing is gonna change how people play a game. At that point you have two options, stick with it and not care that they suck and they are still beating you, or leave. I don't whine and cry about shitty players, I just leave them. I like my policy :tup:

[loffter]

I kinda agree with capnSRK, people know they are using cheap people for easy wins, hell who cares. They want to rnak up so bad they use Malin, Dyo etc etc etc. Even people here do it and then complain about it, just get over it >.>.





....Malin is no where near top tier. just wanted to point that out.... shes mid tier at best.

[FighterX]

Only time I complain is when people fireball/uppercut runaway/uppercut all day. That shit went out back in the late 90's.

If something like that bugs me, I'll simply say it over the loudspeaker. If it doesn't stop, I'm gone. But I'll almost always "warn" you.

That's the only thing I ever complain about.

I can't say shit about picking repetitive characters; because people are so concerned with winning, there are very few people online that will try out new characters with you and respect that. I had to learn Jhun on the fly. Sometimes, it's the best way to learn, but he's got all these stance options.

So, forewarning to anyone playing me, Jhun will most likely be in my team for a good 95% of our matches for the next few days. If it bugs you, let me know. I don't generally care what anyone else thinks, but I *WILL* make an exception for SRK folks.

[ArcadeFire]

I think it's cheap to just use Iori's QCB+PX3 move only and do nothing else.

[Circular]

If the opponent is just an unpleasant sort, then there's nothing for that. However, I still think there are times when the opponent doesn't mean to irritate you. The situation Kenmasters313 is talking about where you're learning a character, so you play them a lot, and the opponent gets sick of it is a prime example.

The problem is that I--and I suspect a lot of other people--can't hear what you're saying (I turn the sound off so it doesn't bother my wife, I know Kenmasters 313 has a kid he doesn't want to wake, lots of people don't have headsets). I'd like to develop some mechanism so that people can tell me "stop practicing Jhun mixup/Ryo LDM/whatever, I'm getting sick of it."

[Koll]

Meh arguable tier list.

http://www.forumplanet.com/planetdreamcast/orochinagi/topic.asp?fid=6980&tid=1433542

[loffter]

Tier listing compiled by Empyrian
*Insert 2k3 favourite character aka HIM here.* (im guessing duolon...)

Dominant Tier (in running order)
K` (hes not really THAT strong. hes got his wakeup game, and keepaway game, but outside of that, hes reletivly balanced)
Goro (goro???? if this is supposed to be Daimon, then yeah, TT)
Ash (no. just...no.Ash is like Guild from CvS2. hes good, but not THAT good.)

Overpowered (in running order)
Benimaru (meh, all of his moves are supercancelable, and he combos well. not TT though)
Jhun (same with K. outside his mixup game, hes reletively normal.)
Malin (her jumping DM would make her upper teir, but jhun and robert have one too, as well as a few other people.)
Iori (god yes. overpowered as hell)
Kim (Kim isnt overpowered at all. hes VERY balanced as far as ive seen. cept his crossup is sick)
Terry (Terry is ALWAYS overpowered. hes the SNK favorite. its like Ryu. ever seen Ryu be low tier?)
Yamazaki (yamazaki is a whore. nuff said.)

Balanced Tier (well, it is the balanced tier, right? :P)
Gato
King
Shen Woo (id say shen woo is pretty low teir. hes like iori, only less powerful and fewer options.)
Kyo
Ryo
Billy
Chang
Griffin
Hinako
Robert
Shingo
Mai
Chizuru
Clark

(overall, i agree with this list.)

Weak Tier
Kusanagi (HAHA! this guy just lost all credibility. kusanagi low tier...haha...)
Athena (arguable)
Joe (again.....HAHA, Joe low tier. funny shit.)
Yuri (PLEASE. shes Balanced at the least/ she is one of the FEW charecters that can DM off a low attack. that alone makes her GOOD. add in full screen fireball, reflector, bitch slap of doom... id say yuri is uper middle tier.)
Leona (agreed)

Crap Tier
Ralf
Whip
Maxima
Mary

this entire list is lame. Ralf and whip are not crap tier, Maxima is at least on par with Athena, Mary has a mixup game that is just as sick as K', and id like to either watch thoths whip, or personal use mine, to kick this guys ass. and ralf is not bad at all. he combos well, has a mixup game, and his supers are easy to combo into as well. this guy is a complete hoser. this list isnt even arguable, its downright shit.

[Circular]

EDIT: Argh, stop tricking me into derailing my own thread. ;)

My take:

Tier listing compiled by Empyrian
*Insert 2k3 favourite character aka HIM here.* This is Duo Lon--the Orochinagi forums started to refer to Duo Lon as "HIM." I don't think this is disputable.

Dominant Tier (in running order)
K`
Goro (Daimon's full name is Goro Daimon.)
Ash

K' and Ash make it because of the invincible 0-frame startup supers. Those moves completely change how you play against them. They also have lots of good stuff--good pokes and strong specials. Plus they're both "complete" characters; they have no weaknesses to speak of. Same with Daimon--his supers, especially his counter-super, are so good that they force you to approach him completely differently.

Overpowered (in running order)
Benimaru--B&B which is, so far as I know, completely safe. Solid supers with easy supercancels. Good pokes. Only real weaknesses are a lack of a ranged game and a shaky anti-air--but those are important weaknesses. I'd put him in the balanced tier.
Jhun--j.D has unbelievable priority. It beats things that I literally didn't think could be beaten. s.D and c.D are both great. Qcb + K is good. Useful supers. Mixups from the B stance. c.B, c.A is a very easy link. Again, only weakness is that he has to get in.
Malin--Made too good simply because no one else is designed to fight her. The other characters weren't given tools to deal with her flight-like abilities. Also, multiple yo-yos is really good.
Iori--Always a solid character. Made better in 2k3 because he can get even more damage from his command grab by using a tag attack into super.
Kim--Good pokes, especially s.A. Good combos from c.B. I don't think he's overpowered, though; his good stuff isn't as good as Jhun's good stuff.
Terry--Again, always a solid character. However, his only good anti-air is a super (admittedly a good super). I'd call him balanced.
Yamazaki--Would be balanced were it not for the invincible grab super, which is a lot like K''s Ash's, and Daimon's supers in how it forces you to change your play. Yamazaki isn't in their tier only because his other stuff isn't as strong as theirs.

Balanced Tier (well, it is the balanced tier, right? :P)
Gato--Lots of good stuff but hard to play.
King--Good fireball options and supers, but I'm not too impressed with her normals.
Shen Woo--No good anti-air, but does huge damage fast.
Kyo--Only in leader form, where he's got random Mushiki potential. Without the LDM I'd call him low tier.
Ryo--Great priority, great damage, but predictable and laggy.
Billy--I'd put him in the overpowered tier, for the same reason as Malin--no one else is equipped to deal with his range.
Chang--Long range on c.D, and j.C is very good, otherwise kinda plain.
Griffin--Pecking is awesome, great super grabs, but not as dangerous as the overpowered characters.
Hinako--I'd say she's low tier. I've never seen anyone get her to work.
Robert--Probably the most conventional shoto-type character in the game after Athena. A classic, strong design that couples with good c.B combos and high-low mixup on wakeup with f + A. Damage potential, however, is merely average, and while his stuff is good none of it is *too* good like the characters in the overpowered tier.
Shingo--Like Kyo, a shoto design without the fireball.
Mai--Malin Lite.
Chizuru--Hard to fight against, but also hard to play. I haven't played many Chizurus, so I'm not sure how good she is.
Clark--Very good grab game, some good pokes, has the usual grappler weaknesses. I'll agree with him being balanced.

Weak Tier
Kusanagi--The computer is really good with this guy, but I think it's a lot harder for humans to use the autoguard on his uppercut. Also, I think his fireballs are slower when a human uses them. Balanced tier, but low balanced tier.
Athena--Strong shoto design. I'm not sure why she isn't better, but I think it's right that she's low tier. Probably nerfed too hard after being top tier in 2k2.
Joe--Uppercut (upper-knee?) with good invincibility, Hurricane Uppers control space just like Sol's Gunflames do. Only real weakness is that his other specials are kinda odd. Balanced tier.
Yuri--Mindgames with the rush-slaps, has an uppercut, fireball takes a long time to charge but acts like a super fireball, okay pokes, combos well. The problem, again, is that her stuff is good but not *too* good. Balanced tier.
Leona--Doesn't seem to have very good damage potential, and her big combos are hard to do. Low tier if only because she's hard to get much damage out of.

Crap Tier
Ralf--Autoguarding command grab is good, and his normals are okay, but he doesn't have a good B&B combo that I know of and a lot of his specials either have lots of startup time or lag afterward. Better than Leona, but still low tier.
Whip--Mixups are cute but can generally be avoided if you know they're coming. Tarzan-swinging is good; I think the only thing that can match it head-on is Jhun's j.D. Invincible supers that suck you in are great for blowing through wakeup games. Otherwise not very noteworthy. Balanced tier.
Maxima--Has some good moves--Vapor Cannon, Bunker Buster, the rush-grab. Very slow, though. I'd say he's at least as good as Leona, and beolongs in the low tier.
Mary--I can't tell if Mary is actually good or if it's just that my reflexes are too slow to respond to her slide on reaction. Either way, her moves take a while to come out; somebody with better reflexes than me ought to be able to handle her pretty easily. I lose all the time to Mary, but I think it's just me. Low tier.

[danomyte]

those post im sure are about the arcade verison. some big changes in the console.

anyway my tight (online)tier list! :cool:

Shin orichi Uber broke GOD tizier
LAG!-lame jumpins and unblockable trips=too good!
RAT!wait for an attack then roll and throw also good with lag assist so u cant tech!

S-class
Maki-doesnt have to block high-low,good fireballs and LDM,ez inf
Mazui-good mixup,safe,and hard to hit
Adel-fast,air proitay,and piano music
Duo-mix up,fast,lockdown, &air proitay
Goro-1000 different throws(antiair throws,antiground throws),good pokes,scruby throw commands(HCB?) and good supers. its like zangief without the skill!

A-class
K-good FB mixup,high-low mixup in lag,unblockables,and good supers
Iori-crossoverkick,damage doesnt scale with supers,command throw(cant duck)into whatever you want,ez combos to hit online,command overhead stays high hit,and crazy tag command throw combos if lon of on the team. lag does messup his commands sometimes however.
Jhun-good mixup offline and better online.
Yaki-has everything covered,cant jump on him(good AA super, cant block(tick throws),good supers,anti fireball,good pokes,and command counter.
Gato-mixup flowed by more mixup. just see the kof11 vids. they tone down every1 else in that game but not him? lucky motherfucker slid under the radar.
Robert-ez combos to hit,solid FB and UC,good air dive kick,lighting kick is retard and cheap LDM
Tizoc-random crossovers,gay peck, and **see goro**

B-Class
Shingo-2 words......under rated......command throw,highlow game,and good LDM
King-O.sagat eat your heart out!
Benny-solid drill,nice moves,alot of good combos,and gay leopard belly shirt
Kim-good pokes,ez combo,gay head stomp? yeah thats kim everyyear! slowthis year though.
Shen Woo-hard to get in but once he does...
Billy-still good from 02,reallly good pokes,hard to get in,good supers,and give lon and grapplers a hard time.
Terry-tricky to play,toned down from MOTW,hard to hit combos online.if u want overpower terry play kof 97-98. not this waterdown wannabe. still solid.

C-Class
Ryo-solid brick wall,hes shit stop everything. no good combo however and lag messes his moves up since they are so close.
Athena-toned down from 02 but still good, slow startup really hurts her,but good pressure combos
Hink-ez combos,nice command throws,but no real damage
kyo-good links,nice supers,but nothing great. lag messes up his moves
chang-nice auto block and command throws. but size holds him back.
yuri-nice lockdown but slow
joe-good links with ok damamge,good AA
clark-ok pokes and solid throws nothing great
Mai-slowed down from other years but still good in the air
evil kyo-greaat AA,good D attack,nice FB but no good combos.
Malin-nice lockdown,but no damamge or mixup however rapes grapplers!

Toliet Tier
Whip-Good C and D attacks,gay mixup,random crossovers but hard to get in and get out of mixup isnt to hard
Mary-no real way to hurt you,solid AA,slow
Max-slow as fuck,way is tizoc C 2 frames but max is 19 frames?
Ralf-no combo,slow,raped terriablely from 02

[Rave]

Tier List
That was fun to read.

~~~
Also, is Gato really all that hard to play? I mean, he has a lot of options, but mixup-wise, if you stick to qcb A, C , qcb A, B , and qcb B, C it seems to work pretty well on most people. Not that I don't try to work everything into my game, just he seems solid with those alone.
His jumping D is really good for hops, and his C is easy to combo into. He seems to be pretty good mainly because of the unknown factor. Most of the time I throw out a qcb B, C it connects. So stuff like random tag attack to Close D, qcb B, C, qcfx2, or just a few loops of crouching a, qcb b, c, work a lot more than they should.

But hey, I'm the newb here, so what do I know :P

[SaffronsGhost]

That was fun to read.

~~~
Also, is Gato really all that hard to play? I mean, he has a lot of options, but mixup-wise, if you stick to qcb A, C , qcb A, B , and qcb B, C it seems to work pretty well on most people.
By "most people" I guess you meant people that really dont know the game all that well. :tup:

[Rave]

By "most people" I guess you meant people that really dont know the game all that well. :tup:

Yeah, that's fair. I'm gonna guess most of the people on XBL aren't really used to the game yet, much less the character.

[SaffronsGhost]

Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and guess that most of the people that play this on XBL are either Capcom fans, or fans that haven't put much time into 2k3. And he's a fair bit different from his Garou version, so knowing that game wouldn't help too much...

But if you tried that on, probably, any of the Top 10 it wouldn't work out too well.

[Mycah Leonhart]

Why the fuck is EVERYONE playing or trying to learn Jhun now?! lol - I had him first damn it!!!!!!!, Since '99 bitches!!!

[Circular]

Why the fuck is EVERYONE playing or trying to learn Jhun now?! lol - I had him first damn it!!!!!!!, Since '99 bitches!!!

Since I realized that j.D, s.C, and c.C were some of the best normals I've ever seen.

[scum gale 88]

I had never noticed that ralf was so low. kinda disappointing. still, 0 combos but great damage output on some moves.

"I can survive anything, EVEN NUKES!"

[loffter]

Since I realized that j.D, s.C, and c.C were some of the best normals I've ever seen.




lol, in my defense, Jhun was the first person i picked in training mode when i bought the game.it went, in this order:

Jhun
Malin
Whip
Duolon (had NO idea at the time who he was or what he was about)
King
Billy





i imidiately dropped Jhun, whip became my favorite, Billy was a close second, malin my third, and duolon went the way of the Jhun. i recently picked jhun up again. oh right.... im still not sure how king became my best/favorite.. >_>