could someone PLEASE help me out with this argument!

[loffter]

MortalRepentance: i like when we play with people we suck with the most
MortalRepentance: notice how i use maxima all the time? do you think i think im good with him? :-!
LoffterT: lol... like when i get Duolon and bumfuck Shen?
MortalRepentance: ...no, not like duolon
MortalRepentance: but yeah, shen is good
MortalRepentance: we both blow with him
MortalRepentance: you seem to be trying to develop a tourney team or something, whcih is fine
MortalRepentance: but i hate
MortalRepentance: i need variety or i get bored, and lose
MortalRepentance: plus your team is like, my most hated people
MortalRepentance: played the way i most hate them played
MortalRepentance: :-)
MortalRepentance: if this was cvs2 your team is like vega, blanka, sagat
MortalRepentance: ya
LoffterT: lol not really...
LoffterT: TT in this game is Ash, Duolon, and K
LoffterT: Kim is considered high mid tier
MortalRepentance: uhm, by retards
LoffterT: no, thats universal
MortalRepentance: 2003 kim is pretty much cvs2 ex groove
LoffterT: not EVEN
LoffterT: all he can do is combo into super
MortalRepentance: every move he has is a cancel
LoffterT: thats all kim has, combo into super
MortalRepentance: no
MortalRepentance: cancels too
LoffterT: without a bar, kim is nothing
MortalRepentance: if you decide whos tt bar weither they have bar or not, youre retarded
MortalRepentance: :-)
LoffterT: ...you have no concept of what makes a charecter TT
MortalRepentance: right, of course
LoffterT: kim is not TT because he has to have a bar to be any good
MortalRepentance: thats such a load of bullshit, lol
MortalRepentance: ash isnt tt then either
LoffterT: what does he have besides his combos and cancels into super
LoffterT: Ash is second only to duolon
MortalRepentance: ash has literally nothing without supers
LoffterT: his moves are fast, he has priority, his supers a great, he can turtle, he can rush, he has a command grab, and he can combo into super off crossups and low attacks, not to mention he can escape or preasure with his back A/C respectivly
LoffterT: everything about Ash is TT and anyone but you will tell you that
MortalRepentance: exactly like kim
LoffterT: no, kim has no projectiles, no high damageing non super combos, the only priority he has is his down up kick, he has alot of recovery on most of his more damageing moves makeing them risky to do, and hes highly prone to getting randomly supered because of it, and once he loses his momentum, he is done for
LoffterT: he has no means of escape outside of rolling
MortalRepentance: uh
MortalRepentance: so your argument is "if you arent doing good with kim hes not tt!"
MortalRepentance: rofl
LoffterT: ...what?
MortalRepentance: no high damaging no super combos, give me a break
LoffterT: i said no high damageing NON super combos
MortalRepentance: so did i
MortalRepentance: ash has like, 3 combos
MortalRepentance: and yet hes tt and kim isnt?
MortalRepentance: whatever
LoffterT: ugh
LoffterT: its like arguing with a toddler, you refuse to even consider that you are wrong, instead, the entire world is wrong and you are right
MortalRepentance: if you could make a single point i might come around
MortalRepentance: instead you prove me right
LoffterT: everyone point ive made is completel valid
LoffterT: all you have said in retort is "haha yeah right"

MortalRepentance: no...
LoffterT:
MortalRepentance: if you could make a single point i might come around
MortalRepentance: here, ill make it real easy for you
LoffterT:
MortalRepentance: whatever
LoffterT:
MortalRepentance: no high damaging no super combos, give me a break
MortalRepentance: name me more than 3 ash combos and you iwn
LoffterT:
MortalRepentance: so your argument is "if you arent doing good with kim hes not tt!"
LoffterT: all of your arguments boil down to you saying "you are wrong" and you have yet to give an explanation
LoffterT: what does kim have that makes him TT
LoffterT: and why is ash not TT
MortalRepentance: ash is tt
MortalRepentance: see you dont even listen
MortalRepentance: my point is that ash AND kim are tt, not that neither are
LoffterT:
MortalRepentance: ash isnt tt then either
MortalRepentance: yes i was mocking you
MortalRepentance: ash has far less than kim, and kim isnt? whatever
LoffterT: im telling you, and so will anyone else, Kim is not TT, ash is
LoffterT: kim isnt low tier
LoffterT: his top mid tier
MortalRepentance: well they cant ggive a decent reason then
LoffterT: there are 5 tiers in KoF 03
MortalRepentance: besides just saying it
LoffterT: i jsut gave you a goddamn paragraph!
MortalRepentance: and i retorted it all
LoffterT: no you didnt
LoffterT: no a single thing did you prove wrong, even give an explanation
LoffterT: again, all you said was "yeah right"
MortalRepentance: whatever you say
MortalRepentance: ive said many things you havent responded to
MortalRepentance: YOU are trying to prove something to ME
MortalRepentance: YOU give the "facts" and I retort
LoffterT: you havnt said ANYTHING
LoffterT: you have yet to defend kim being TT
LoffterT: even once outside of saying that he is
MortalRepentance: you havent said anything worth retorting :-D
MortalRepentance: kim can combo from anything, and super from any combo
MortalRepentance: thats tt right there
LoffterT: combo WHAT
LoffterT: qcb k, which does no damage and leaves him vulnerable?
LoffterT: qcb P which is a decent preasure move but gets owned by a super that has more range than Kings qcb X2 k super?
MortalRepentance: ...wtf
LoffterT: charge down + up which can only be comboed off crouching moves, and you cant move while doing it
MortalRepentance: your reason a move sucks is cause "it gets owned by a super"
MortalRepentance: i mean what the fuck is that
LoffterT: no, it gets owned by ANY move with range
LoffterT: i use super as an example
MortalRepentance: a non-noob can charge it in a jump in or a roll or whatever
LoffterT: its very risky
LoffterT: and a pro MIGHT be able to hit confirm it
MortalRepentance: if youre close (and why the fuck else would you use it) its not risky at all
LoffterT: it is risky because if it whifs, you get hurt
MortalRepentance: uh, ok
LoffterT: or blocked for that matter
MortalRepentance: kinda like jumpin d?
MortalRepentance: right
LoffterT: what about a jump in D?
MortalRepentance: the FACT of the matter is that kims moves push the other person away, so they ARENT punishable
MortalRepentance: unless you do them at the wrong time
MortalRepentance: and "doing things at the wroong time" isnt what makes TTs
LoffterT: no, priority, comboability, infinates, attack strength, and unblockable situations make a charecter TT
MortalRepentance: rofl
MortalRepentance: k would still be more than tt without his undoable infinite
LoffterT: Kim has a small amount of comboability, no priority, no infinates, medium attack strength, and no unblockbles
MortalRepentance: ...k, we're done, youre out of your mind
LoffterT: K doesnt have an infinate
LoffterT: ARGH, see, thats what im talking about
MortalRepentance: small amount of comboability, rofl
LoffterT: godamnit, if your gonna argue, ARGUE, make a point, but dont just say shit like that
MortalRepentance: thats funny, cause i remember you telling me you caught spooty with it
LoffterT: its not an infinate
MortalRepentance: your a liar or he has one, thats all
LoffterT: its an unblockable
LoffterT: and its an escapeable corner combo
LoffterT: well, not a combo
LoffterT: all it does is put his fireball on both sides of you
LoffterT: you can safe fall to get out of it because safe fall give you invis frames while keeping you on your feet
MortalRepentance: i gotta go now, ill be back
MortalRepentance: kim is tt





i mean, please. someone tell him. he posts on SRK, its CaptainSRK, Saffrons Ghost. PLEASE befor i lose my mind. its like debateing with a toddler

[Spooty Whiteboy]

Snip

This has nothing to do with most of what you just posted.

Yup. K's unblockable. It's not an infinite. I just didn't know what it was at the time, and I hardly ever tech roll (except after certain moves/combos hit me).

[Circular]

So far as I can tell, the positions are:

L: Kim is not top tier, because he needs meter. Ash is top tier because he's good at everything.

M: Kim is top tier because he's good at everything. Ash is top tier because the internet says so.

Circular: Kim is good at everything, but he's not top tier because he has nothing unfair. The top tier in 2k3 is top because they have unreasonable moves, and Kim doesn't have any of those. Ash is top tier because he's good at everything and some of his moves--b + LK, both projectiles, both supers--are too good.

[SaffronsGhost]

No, my stance is yours, Circular. Except that I think making tiers based on "fairness" is totally fucking gay and can't even allow that thought into my head. :shrug:

[Mycah Leonhart]

Wow.......something about all this is kinda scrubby to me.

My stance is as follows..........I hate Ash cause he missed the memo that was going around the office about startup and recovery times, Same with Kim plus Kim is VERY easy to combo with.

[loffter]

No, my stance is yours, Circular. Except that I think making tiers based on "fairness" is totally fucking gay and can't even allow that thought into my head. :shrug:
:rofl: then what makes a tier? if every charecter was perfectly balanced there would be no tiers! a charecter being cheap is what MAKES a charecter top tier. saget in CvS2 is CHEAP because of his standing fierce and crouching fierce (among other things), so hes TT.A groove Sakura is cheap/TT because of her insane priorities, easy ass combos, and her totaly unbalanced CC. same thing with A groove Bison, except you can add female level speed to that list. Chun Li in 3s is cheap because of the priority of her back + fierce punch combined with her ability to easily combo into super. she replaces combos with pokes. in SF II Championship edition, Bison is cheap because of his psycho crusher (so im told, i dont do SF II...). so what makes a charecter TT to you? since, even though tiers are based off balance, you dont beleive in that. Duolon is fucking CHEAP, and hes considered top tier. in fact, hes the first charecter ive ever seen in a fighting game with his OWN tier. so if hes not cheap, and hes just TT, then what makes him TT?



oh, and i totaly missed the thing about nameing 2 ash combos in the conversation.


Cr B X2, Back +b

command grab into down up + D

corner combo command grab, just befor the hit the ground do down + up D, cancel into fireball super, just befor they hit the ground do up + D, cancel into super, rinse and repeat until they die or your run out of meter

any form of jab combos into his down + up K

cr B X2 into qcf K X2 super

Crossup (his crossup is one of the beter ones) with D and then work into any of those combos except the corner combo.

standing C, forward A

there are 5 high damageing normal combos and 2 high damageing super combos. i didnt even get into the the things he can do with his fireball super when not in the corner.

[Circular]

No, my stance is yours, Circular. Except that I think making tiers based on "fairness" is totally fucking gay and can't even allow that thought into my head. :shrug:

"Unfairness" is a reflection of the character's mechanics, not whether or not I like a character or can beat them. Ash's moves are better than other characters' in ways that those other characters can't compensate for. Kim, on the other hand, has good moves--but you *can* compensate by using your own good stuff. He's therefore good, but not "unfair."

For example, Ash's kick super gives him an instantaneous, invincible wakeup. Very few characters in this game have a wakeup option that good (off the top of my head, Ash, K', Ryo, maybe Tizoc?), and moves that are invincible enough to go through the kick super are also rare. Ash's kick super gives him an advantage that other characters simply can't get around; when Ash has meter, it's very risky to try to play an okizeme game against him, because if he guesses right and goes for the kick super that's all for you. Add in a couple additional moves that give enormous advantage, and you've got a character who's pretty silly.

Also, I don't understand why Ash needs any combos that aren't c.B x2 -> d, u + K -> qcf x2 + K.

[SaffronsGhost]

Loffter the combos you mentioned show your true colors. They are either weak as SHIT (and like, are all the same) or involve supers which *apparently* cannot be taken into account when decideding tiers http://boards.icb2.com/gfx/faces/face_jerkit.gif

You can't base tiers on "cheap"ness either, that's likewise retarded. Then everyones TT, if you play them cheaply.

"He's therefore good, but not "unfair.""
THAT'S what makes him TT to me, and what no one else apparently can understand. He's not GAY CHEAP and he still pwns, therefor TT.

Your CVS2 shit is gay as always loffter. If ASak never CCed you, could you still call her cheap? Would she still be tt?

"Wow.......something about all this is kinda scrubby to me."
No fucking question there babydoll. :clap:

[Circular]

supers which *apparently* cannot be taken into account when decideding tiers http://boards.icb2.com/gfx/faces/face_jerkit.gif

This is clearly incorrect.

everyones TT, if you play them cheaply.

This is also clearly incorrect. Some characters are better at doing cheap things than others, and some characters lend themselves to styles of play which are more effective than others.

"He's therefore good, but not "unfair.""
THAT'S what makes him TT to me, and what no one else apparently can understand. He's not GAY CHEAP and he still pwns, therefor TT.

Surely the two of you have been using the same definition of "top tier." Surely.

...Haven't you?

[SaffronsGhost]

We have the same end, basically...who's good. But we have different means of getting there, I guess.

[loffter]

Loffter the combos you mentioned show your true colors. They are either weak as SHIT (and like, are all the same) or involve supers which *apparently* cannot be taken into account when decideding tiers http://boards.icb2.com/gfx/faces/face_jerkit.gif

You can't base tiers on "cheap"ness either, that's likewise retarded. Then everyones TT, if you play them cheaply.

"He's therefore good, but not "unfair.""
THAT'S what makes him TT to me, and what no one else apparently can understand. He's not GAY CHEAP and he still pwns, therefor TT.

Your CVS2 shit is gay as always loffter. If ASak never CCed you, could you still call her cheap? Would she still be tt?

"Wow.......something about all this is kinda scrubby to me."
No fucking question there babydoll. :clap:


saffy saffy saffy.those combos are not weak in the least.

Cr B X2, Back +b
its a bit weak, but its a setup. after you do the back b, you have options. you can back D to run away, you can back B AGAIN (which, btw, you get hit by every time), or you have enough of a back charge to do a fireball. thats called preassure. something you dont have, a preasure game. your preasure game consists of jumping constantly. also, this move can be linked into super, though the timeing is rediculous.

command grab into down up + D
this combo foes about 1/7 a bar of life. thats alot of life for so few button inputs.


corner combo command grab, just befor the hit the ground do down + up D, cancel into fireball super, just befor they hit the ground do up + D, cancel into super, rinse and repeat until they die or your run out of meter
its an insane combo, the only thing keeping it from being an infinate is that you need meter to do it.


any form of jab combos into his down + up K
knockdown, damage, combo, and hit confirmable. NOTHING wrong with this move. it can even be rolled into.


cr B X2 into qcf K X2 super
his basic super move, you use this all the time yourself.


Crossup (his crossup is one of the beter ones) with D and then work into any of those combos except the corner combo.
i was just pointing this out.


standing C, forward A
i was wrong, its standing A + forward A



i just dont see your point about tiers. i really really dont. but whatever, as long as you understand that Ash it TT and Kim isnt then im done. if you dont...then im done anyways

[Koll]

Put it this way, Ash is top tier *BOTTOM OF THE LIST TOP TIER SO CALM THE FUCK DOWN >.>* Because he has a move for pretty much every situation, he has charge moves which make him a good turtler, decent anti airs, blah blah blah etc you seen him play.

Kim is high tier, not top tier get it right. You seen how he is, you seen how fails in certain situations, just accept it. It kinda obvious wh Ash is TT and Kim isn't........SEX!

[SaffronsGhost]

Kim > you, sex that son