CvS2 - Doc B's S-Groove Thread

[Kataklysmic]

Yeah popoblo, it's false as far as the masses go. No point talking sense to them. Fuck it.

That being said, I don't think anyone should ever dodge when an opponent is jumping. Just simply anti air. The only reason (That I can think of right now) to dodge when the opponent jumps is to do an anti air super as you come out of the dodge.

Some characters have better anti-air dodge moves than DPs, namely Yuri and Terry.

Whooo shit! Happy 1000th B!

[ph!Lop!a]

New to S-groove, here.

so far i decided to keep it simple by playing characters i already know how to play and learn how to use S groove effectively with them. so i dont know if my team is good, but i'd like some feed back.

S-akuma/rolento/chang2

some notes and tibits i've found with this team.

akuma: with akuma its basically being random, but not stupid with attacks. i like to whiff a lot of hurricane kicks after a dodge to bait out dps and counter it with a bnb combo. i also like the fact that his charge, red fireball, and teleport all look alike; only difference is the charge flames under his feet. this also sets up some decent mind games and works with the whole randomness and punish thing i look for with akuma.

ex: dodge > whiff hurricane, land, charge XX back kk teleport, dodge, whiff hurricane, land, red fireball, dodge, back teleport, charge > dodge, whiff hurrican, land, charge, etc.

lol...on paper it doesnt look like much, but im staying on the defensive most of the time. i counter with dodge/charge > DP if they jump in. um..yeah. more later.

rolento: where akuma was random and everything, rolenot is strictly defensive. just a lot of poking going on, dodge > p XX roll way..then counter a jump in, roll in or whatever they do. or doge > punch, full screen roll > knives. basically with rolento im hitting and running. im just waiting for those opprotunities to hit with my c.fk, then follow up with knives or c.mk > patriot twirls/trip wire. all at the same time im running away, keeping away, and chipping away with knives.

chang: hes a bit of both. going on the defensive when i need to, but then playing mind games with choi and his dodge. hurricane choi gives chang time to charge if he doesnt want to follow up. in the corner after a knockdown, chang has a number of options he can follow up with. choi + ball trap, choi + dodge to bait counters, choi + charge (to get that last bit in). in corner oc. fp > lvl choi super does nice chip, you can follow up with the spinning ball for added chip.

one thing i like to do is oc.fp > choi super, (near the end start piano'ing for the spinning ball), super ends, spinning ball cancl*, tick fp throw, lk hurricane choi, low jump fk, land, > spinning ball. GC, spinning ball cancel > lvl 1 super or hop into command grab. nice chunk of damage, breaks full meter, you have a chance to repeat cuz they're still in the corner. and whats best is you can mix it up. after a knock down, hurricane choi, run up, dodge a desperate DP attempt, then counter.

*piano to make it seem like your gonna follow up with spinning ball. cancel if it comes out. works better then just walking up and hoping to throw.

corner S chang is fun.

also, dodge > k XX lp counter is awesome. nice wait to bait out someone with a long poke when you know the k will whiff. especially cammy and sagat.

ok..scrub post, but like i said im new to S. so i still have a lot to learn and to work out.

[shinobi00]

Woo, just read this whole thread. Great thread! I had a few minor S groove questions that I didn't see answered in here, though..

According to what I've read so far, a dodge is cut up into three phases. The second phase can be canceled into a dodge attack (P or K), and third phase of the dodge can be canceled into another dodge. So my questions are..

1) Can the third phase be canceled by anything else, other than another dodge?

It would seem as though it can't, but I wasn't sure.

2) Can you cancel the first phase in any way?

3) Are you able to link a move with first frame invulnerability from a dodge?

EG. (claw)Vega's backflip immediately following a dodge.

It seems theoretically possible to backflip immediately as you're recovering from a dodge, and avoid a meaty attack like (cape)Bison's c.HK, but I'm having a hell of a time doing it. I've repeatedly tried to flip through a meaty Bison c.HK after a dodge in training mode and so far I've had no luck. I'm able to backflip as reversals while getting up off the ground, but can't seem to do them after dodges. Is it a timing issue or is it simply not possible?

4) Is it possible to keep some one in perpetual blockstun (when they don't have meter) with anyone's level 1 super while in critical (red/power condition)?

I assume Athena can with her SCB super. Any notible others?

5) Does anyone use an S team to specifically designed to counter the generic battery/user/anchor used in other grooves?

More specifically, a team like C-Guile/Chun/r2-Sagat or C-Guile/Ken/r2-Sagat is pretty much designed for just that (battery/user/anchor, respectively). So, I wondered that, since S-groove doesn't share meter between characters, does anyone base their character and ratio selections entirely off countering other grooves?

EG. rushdown/sponge/anchor. Where the rushdown character would be intended to counter the Battery and/or bait the Battery into wasting meter. And the 'sponge' being a high stamina character with good defense/zoning abilities to soak up damage or bait supers in order to counter the User. And the anchor to counter the anchor, which brings me to my next question..

6) What r2 S-groove character is best suited for countering r2 C/A/N-Sagat, other than S-Sagat?

And, this isn't really a subjective question. I'm mostly just interested in hearing what advantages (if any), any particular S-characters have against Sagat in particular.

I'll try to answer these as best as I can, not sure If I'm going to be 100% correct.

1. You can cancel into a special or a super.

2.no the dodge is not cancellable

3. yeah you do that in the third phase (not after the dodge), it's sorta tricky but you'll eventually get the hang of it.

4. Dunno about this one, but I've been able to link endless scissor kick super with bison with cr. mk on couple of people. Is it really endless though? Probably not, I should test if I wasn't too lazy.

5. Not sure how to answer this one because this is pretty much basic character matchups.

6. Your obviously looking for someone who can quickly dodge aand attack a sagat poke, and the best character for that is cammy imo.

[kcxj]

Where did that crazy guy talking about the helicopters go? I want him to post so I can laugh again. Him, TFGM, and Cobra Commander should get together and be friends one of these days.

[Onikage]

kcxj is still my hero after all these years.

[Jaguarandine]

Regarding Xenozip's questions:
These are all really good questions that needed to be asked. I'll answer the ones that I think aren't completely clear yet.

1)If by cancel, you mean seemlessly enter into the next technique, then Shinobi gave most of the answer. Refer to #3 for more details.

2)I believe there was some deabate a while back concerning why you couldn't roll cancel in S-Groove. I don't think that question has ever been sufficiently answered so there's no 100% right now on this one. Shinobi's answer is the best one atm.

3)Techniqually speaking, you can link any move or technique seemlessly onto the end of the dodge. The timing is just difficult; fairly close to a 1-frame link (or jf, for those of you familiar with Tekken) IMO. Linking into another dodge is easier; you get a 3 frame slop period. As you've pointed out, the linking of certain moves is a definate advantage, so I think it's pretty important to learn this.

5)This is a great question, but I'm not sure if any S-Groove player chooses characters like this other than maybe Doc B (reason being there aren't too many high-level S players). I've personally never played this way, but I could see how it would be an advantge to S for those that do. Maybe you could break ground on this subject.


Btw, to those who appreciated the not serious post; I got that brand of comedy straight from guys like JOP and Eddy Pistons on TekkenZaibatsu so thanks to them. Don't expect anymore soon, due to it not containing "useful info".

[Xenozip.]

Regarding Xenozip's questions:
3)Techniqually speaking, you can link any move or technique seemlessly onto the end of the dodge. The timing is just difficult; fairly close to a 1-frame link (or jf, for those of you familiar with Tekken) IMO. Linking into another dodge is easier; you get a 3 frame slop period. As you've pointed out, the linking of certain moves is a definate advantage, so I think it's pretty important to learn this.
This is sort of the impression that I was getting. And yeah, it does seem fairly important to learn, if it is indeed a 1-frame link (since there's less margin for sloppiness).

I should probably be practicing with DP's and 360's, rather than backflips anyway. But I wanted to clarify if it was even possible or not.

5)This is a great question, but I'm not sure if any S-Groove player chooses characters like this other than maybe Doc B (reason being there aren't too many high-level S players). I've personally never played this way, but I could see how it would be an advantge to S for those that do. Maybe you could break ground on this subject.
Well, I'm not much for theory fighting. I was just sort of wondering if anyone did this intentionally. It's probably not a whole lot different than picking a K team, except that there are some obvious and significant differences between S and K that would probably sway selections a bit.

I've heard theory on speed, and how it's important to kill the opponent really fast, which means Cammy/Sagat. Sounds about right to me..

Doc B's team that he uses in tournies does seem like the more practical and effective choice for countering other grooves. His Bison and Sagat are most excellent. And it's hard to deny the obvious strengths of S-Cammy. Though it sorta seemed like his Cammy was his weakest character.

Aside from Bison.. And assuming that cammy/sagat would be the primary choice. I've heard that Geese is a great counter for scrubby a-sak and fits well with cammy/sagat. Geese is generally pretty strong, and I think dodging and charging adds a lot to his game. His supers aren't the most abusable, but I would think he is one of the characters that would benefit more from keeping a charged meter because he can deal so much damage. His B&B's and counters knockdown, and his dodge kick move isn't too terrible, so he should get lots of opportunity to charge. His counters also add extra dynamic to charge faking.

So, all in all, I would say Geese and Bison would be at the top of my list to counter the A team. But, I haven't had enough experiance with S to say anything for sure. There's probably a lot of good selections, but these jump out at me.

Actually, I'm really just starting to get into S, so I don't really know much of anything yet, other than it's really fun.

[Jaguarandine]

That brings up an interesting point. Around here, a couple things make great character in S; abusable supers and good abusable dodge attacks. If you were top tier in most other grooves, that helps as well. Now, S-Geese is kind of a "darkhorse" around here due to him having the worst dodge linking attack in the entire game. His supers aren't abusable. Your examples about him though lead to what I believe is 2 distincly different styles of play in S-Groove. Keep in mind this is theory.

1)Random, bouncing-off-the-walls style
-Use meter as soon as you get it.
-Throw out safe lvl 1s, hit/miss/block.
-Get supers more often because you use them right away.
This is what I believe Doc B's style of play is, and for good reason. You can get maxed out an absurd number of times per round with this style. No need to worry about not connecting a super because you can just charge up for another. You'll probably get a lvl 3 every now and then too. Prime example of this style is S-Bison.

2)Turtle-like, patient style
-hold on to meter.
-use the damage bonus.
-setup garaunteed super.
-more likely to get in desperation maxed out.
In this style, you can hold onto meter until you see some kind of advantage. If you're opponent is turtling, maybe you'll charge up 99% percent of your meter and wait them out. This makes S meter management very similiar to N-Groove's breaking stock. In S though, if you choose to stay defensive, any slight blocking of the opponent's attack will max you out, automatically readying you defensively.
Once you have 100% meter, there are 2 things that you can do with it. Use the bonus only to increase combo and poke damage (Kyo, Yama, Geese IMO), or hunt for that gauranteed super. As you may know, many people spend the entire time they're maxed (in N and K) trying to get gauranteed super, and don't get it. This clearly contrasts with Doc B's style of not looking for sucess too much as you'll waste the time for another super oppurtunity.
Desperation for this style is scary beacause you're basically holding onto a lvl 3 when charged to 99% (especially S-Todo; grab, max out, super). This is important as it's difficult to charge up a lvl 3 due to the meter filling up more slowly. So I think this style would benefit in comparison from the increased chance of a lvl 3.

I think Geese would be great for this second style, esp. due to his power in desperation with lvl 3.

[Xenozip.]

*snip*
The thing about Geese and Sagat's dodge attacks is, I still use them the same exact way I use everyone else's.

If you'll notice the way that Doc.B uses them in some of his match vids, he only throws out the short-ranged bufferable dodge attack when the opponent is at point blank. It would appear that he does this to push the opponent back, and to keep them from throwing him. He *only* uses the long-ranged knockdown dodge attack to punish a dodged poke. Any other time he dodges, he recovers normally, and acts depending on what the opponent is doing: throw, dodge again, punish a whiffed move. This is a very very smart technique, and probably the most effective way I've seen dodge attacks used.

Sagat and Geese's dodge attacks can probably be used in somewhat the same manner, even though they don't seem particularly great, they still serve the same purposes other dodge attacks do.

Sagat's kick dodge attack in particular seems to be absolutely worthless, however, it's his short-ranged bufferable attack, NOT his knockdown attack. Thus, what we can derive from that is that it should ONLY be used when the opponent is point blank and trying to crowd you during a dodge. And incidentally, the first hit of the kick will connect with a crouching Athena, so there isn't any character in the game that can crouch under it. Not only that, but the second hit also has a decent hitbox for anti-air, making it sorta good against people who just strait up right next to you, or try to jump away.

Geese is the same way. His punch dodge attack (the bufferable one) also hits a crouching Athena, so no one in the game can crouch under it. It also has a high enough hitbox to be used as sort of a poor man's anti-air making it sorta useful against jumpers as well. Plus, it comes out pretty fast, and speed is important when you need to push some one back and guard guard from a throw / cover your ass.

As for their knockdown dodge attacks. Yeah, both of their's aren't nearly on the same level's as Cammy, Sak, or Yama's, but that doesn't make them totally useless, and I don't think they need to be on the same level. Because, their primary use is still to punish something on reaction, not to just random throw out every time you screw up a dodge. And while Sagat's hit's pretty high, it can still punish most pokes in the game since it's also pretty fast and has a decent enough hitbox to hit most people's whiffed pokes.

That said, I don't think Geese's knockdown one would ever get much use since it's really just too short and too many people's pokes outrange it. And if they whiff something large enough, he can probably just recover and punish with something else anyway. But that's fine since Geese has a lot of other ways to knock an opponent down, and I would think he wouldn't really need to rely on his kick dodge attack at all in order to charge meter.


2)Turtle-like, patient style
-hold on to meter.
-use the damage bonus.
-setup garaunteed super.
-more likely to get in desperation maxed out.

Pretty much.

Some things that I've been told (and agree with) make Geese a good anti-battery, and anti-Sakura in particular:

-His counters own random roll cancels. Sakura can't just randomly throw out RC hurricanes, or they get countered. (claw)Vega can't throw out RC claw rolls either. Mai can't just randomly dive. etc, etc.
-His counters are 0 frame, so they can even grab a meaty Bison c.HK and thus be used as reversals, which makes them fairly easy to land on reaction and very abusable.
-His counters leave plenty of time to either charge or set up meaty cross-up/pressure games.
-He has awesome stamina, awesome damage, and awesome stun. Which is ideal for taking out a low-stamina battery while baiting/absorbing some of the damage/meter.
-His B&B's are brain-dead easy, knock down, set up cross-ups and pressure strings, and lead to tons of damage and possibly guard breaks.
-He can build meter for himself after just about anything he does. B&B into sweep, B&B into Janeken, counter, throw, sweep punish, etc.

Aside from that, there's a lot of other benefits to Geese in general, and not just as a counter to A-Sak. His anti-air isn't bad at all, and his standing HP and c.HK are pretty good. He's not really hard to play either, and his B&B's are about as easy as Bison's or Kyo's.

As for how he does in S groove, I'd say he's well suited for it. Dodging and charge feinting/faking only adds to his already strong defense and offense, and can set up counters and other traps. Getting a full charge adds to his already good damage, and it's relatively free and easy to get compared to K or N groove. Running and short jumping definately add to his pressure game. His alpha-counter is ultra fast and has a great hitbox, and tatical recovery can help to avoid other character's cross-up and rushdown games.

Dodging and countering work pretty well with one another, I believe. Dodging is sort of like a good and pretty safe way to "practice" countering, so to speak. If you try and dodge your opponents pokes on reaction, and get a feel for how they attack, you're then probably in a much better position to start using counters. And if you're not entirely sure about a counter, you can just dodge. Since Geese probably won't be landing a counter every time, dodging I think really helps to lighten the pressure and create opportunities. Plus dodge cancelling into counters seems pretty abusable.

The only thing I think he's really lacking is an easily abusable level 1 super and good knockdown dodge attack. But I don't think he really even needs either of those things.

Of course, this is still mostly theory. But technically the only thing S-Geese loses from K-groove is JD and the extra defense bonus while in rage. Aside from that, I think he gets more damage and tactical advantages out of S groove because you can max a charge fairly easily and more often than raging in K. Plus you're only reliant on knocking the opponent down or running away, rather than getting hit or just defending, making it way more reliable or "controlled". So, on paper he should do about the same as, if not better than, K-Geese.

(Kyo, Yama, Geese IMO)As for Yama, dodging doesn't really seem to help his air/anti-air weaknesses. Dodging does seem to help him manage his guard bar a lot better. Sort of in the same way V-Cody would in A3, heh. But Yama really just loses to cammy/sagat too badly in just about any groove.

Kyo I just can't get the hang of. He seems pretty solid, but eh.. I just don't know how to use him properly in S at all and I really don't think he out-performs Bison.

I've also thought about swapping Cammy for Sakura, but Sak's B&B is sort of counter productive since it adds so much meter to the opponents bar. And I'm starting to get comfortable with Cammy.

[Dataika]

Xenozip, I remember when I used to play S, really seriously... and basically hardly anyone could really jump in on him.

If you dodge at the right time, the punch dodge attack is REALLY GOOD, and then you can go into bread and butter. But just mix it up with his regular attack to try to avoid empty jumps -> throws. Although every once in a while, they may get in on a jumpkick, it's still pretty good.

The only thing that really beats it is the opposition knowing exactly when the attack will come out and doing a meaty jumping attack, which is sort of hard when you're reg anti-airing at the same time.

I think it can help Yama's anti-air game.

But then again, I dodge at the worst times (other than anti-air), so don't listen to me.

EDIT: The punch isn't too good by itself as an anti-air... what I mean is you dodge the jump attack (either random CC, or random kicks/punches, or super), and when they're landing nail them with the punch before they can throw. Even if they block it, the B&B does some pretty fucking nice guard damage and really clamps down on the meter making them cautious of doing it again.

If you look at some of the Dr. B matches he did that against a k-groove player.

[Xenozip.]

Sounds like it's pretty tough to do. You'd have to react to an empty jump vs a meaty jump-in pretty quick. Plus, your timing would have to be pretty good, too.

[kcxj]

Oh shoot, S-Yamazaki?

jab, jab, low jump forward early HK, land, random super!

You can use a late buffer when you want to random super right out of a dodge. LP+LK, input super motion, wait, drum all punch buttons at the end of the dodge. It's like Ken or Dudley's overheads linked into super in 3S.

Dodge as anti-air sucks for Yamazaki. He has a least five good anti-air attacks already. Late super and for when you don't have Level 3 meter, far s.MP. Anything that doesn't beat, jump back MK, jump up HP, low jump HP, or d.HP will. The only thing I can't anti-air clean is another Yama's j.MK. But not many characters in the game can do that anyway.

Dodge, level 1 grab as anti-air. It's all crazy!

[Xenozip.]

Sounds fun. And risky.

I'd like to guess right all the time.

Yama really seems like he could go either way, most of the time. Either own everything, or just get raped really bad.

[Dr.B]

I don't think there is really anyway you could have improved it oh wait except for the S-sagat beating Bas gave people I have heard about but it doesn't sound like you were there for that. Good log Popo.

Is this True??? and if so why didnt anyone mention it??? The truth is out there.

-B.

[Dr.B]

Btw thanks to all who are posting their strats to keep the S power in the house...keep those strats coming..Im learning some dope new shit from you guys...

-B.

[Jaguarandine]

I remember seeing somewhere that in P and K groove, you can actually parry and JD before you can block. This is only during the recovery of a move. For example, Sagat qcbx2+k recovers in 3 frames, theoretically allowing another Sagat to get a free Tiger Uppercut (comes out in 3 frames). When you parry or JD, you cut the recovery by one frame, allowing you to escape this "gauranteed" damage. I think I heard Bison's lvl 1 scissor kick also recovers in 3 frames.

I don't know whether or not this due to the nature of parrying and JDing or if this was an intentional advantage given to P and K. So, I'm wondering if you could do the same thing with the dodge. I haven't tried it yet, so it's being thrown out there for anyone with the intiative.

Edit: the parrying/JD thing was found in Buktooth's CvS2 Systems guide, so thanks to him.

[Dr.B]

Does anyone know who beat Bas at TS5 with S- Sagat????

-B.

[FullMetalRoss]

NO one beat Bas with S-sagat. Bas was Raping people in Casual with S-sagat. I don't know who though. I think it is in one of the TS5 logs though (not popoblos)

[Dr.B]

Bas with S-Sag??? That I have to see for myself...

[Dr.B]

Here's an update on the results from NCR4 CvS2 & 3S

http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89060

[FOBio]

i'm actually starting to use s-groove now, but not sure if the characters i use can really benefit from this groove. rock, hibiki (which i doubt), nakoruru, athena... how are they in s-groove?

right now, s-groove's just been a thing to mess around with. so i used kyosuke, todo, and terry. i just play as in k-groove without the JDing and spam level ones when in desperation mode. just wanted to know some tips... maybe show me to the right page on this thread? i saw something about athena and terry on the first page, but nothing really specific.

[Buktooth]

ok, this thread follows a pattern of:

1) somebody bumps just for the sake of bumping it
2) thread dies for 2 weeks
3) somebody else bumps it just for the sake of bumping it
4) thread dies again
5) somebody else bumps it to ask something that has been previously covered, but nobody wants to wade through pages upon pages of stuff that doesn't cover anything.

when this happens, it's time to close the thread.

i know some people will get butthurt (some personally), so i'm gonna make a new s-groove thread that will hopefully be a lot easier to manage. if there is some golden nuggets of wisdom in this thread that absolutely have to be saved, cut and paste them into the new thread.

this thread will be deleted (to prune srk for some needed space) in 2 weeks.