9/11 Doc. Loose Change 2nd Edition [Archive]

angryliberal

02-26-2006, 09:38 PM

courtesy of Miguel de Cervantes -

At this point they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that are on that plain.

"Fortune," said Don Quixote to his squire, as soon as he had seen them, "is arranging matters for us better than we could have hoped. Look there, friend Sancho Panza, where thirty or more monstrous giants rise up, all of whom I mean to engage in battle and slay, and with whose spoils we shall begin to make our fortunes. For this is righteous warfare, and it is God's good service to sweep so evil a breed from off the face of the earth."

"What giants?" said Sancho Panza.

"Those you see there," answered his master, "with the long arms, and some have them nearly two leagues (several miles) long."

"Look, your worship,'' said Sancho. "What we see there are not giants but windmills, and what seem to be their arms are the vanes that turned by the wind make the millstone go."

"It is easy to see," replied Don Quixote, "that you are not used to this business of adventures. Those are giants, and if you are afraid, away with you out of here and betake yourself to prayer, while I engage them in fierce and unequal combat."

So saying, he gave the spur to his steed Rocinante, heedless of the cries his squire Sancho sent after him, warning him that most certainly they were windmills and not giants he was going to attack. He, however, was so positive they were giants that he neither heard the cries of Sancho, nor perceived, near as he was, what they were.

"Fly not, cowards and vile beings," he shouted, "for a single knight attacks you."

A slight breeze at this moment sprang up, and the great vanes began to move.

"Though ye flourish more arms than the giant Briareus (a 100 headed giant from Greek mythology) ye have to reckon with me!" exclaimed Don Quixote, when he saw this.

So saying, he commended himself with all his heart to his lady Dulcinea, imploring her to support him in such a peril. With lance braced and covered by his shield, he charged at Rocinante's fullest gallop and attacked the first mill that stood in front of him. But as he drove his lance-point into the sail, the wind whirled it around with such force that it shivered the lance to pieces. It swept away with it horse and rider, and they were sent rolling over the plain, in sad condition indeed.

Sancho hastened to his assistance as fast as the ass could go. When he came up and found Don Quixote unable to move, with such an impact had Rocinante fallen with him.

"God Bless me!," said Sancho, "did I not tell your worship to watch what you were doing, because they were only windmills? No one could have made any mistake about it unless he had something of the same kind in his head."

"Silence, friend Sancho," replied Don Quixote. "The fortunes of war more than any other are liable to frequent fluctuations. Moreover I think, and it is the truth, that the same sage Frestón who carried off my study and books, has turned these giants into mills in order to rob me of the glory of vanquishing them, such is the enmity he bears me. But in the end his wicked arts will avail but little against my good sword."

"God's will be done," said Sancho Panza, and helping him to rise got him again on Rocinante, whose shoulder was half dislocated. Then, discussing the adventure, they followed the road to Puerto Lápice, for there, said Don Quixote, they could not fail to find adventures in abundance and variety, as it was a well-traveled thoroughfare. For all that, he was much grieved at the loss of his lance, and said so to his squire.

AHVB

02-26-2006, 09:45 PM

I Don't reccomend this film. It mixes truth with bullshit. It promotes the "No PLane Hit The Pentagon/WTC Theory" which was already proven to be B.S.

To a further extent, I questioned the creators of this film and destroyed their no-plane hit the pentagon theory by posting a single link, and surprise surprise, my posts were deleted from their site.

These guys are frauds, there's a reason why the mainstream media has given this film a'lot of emphasis. It's films like this that are purposely released and given a'lot of attention, then disproved in order to make the 9/11 truth movement look bad to the general public.

Here's the link with the article which destroys the "no plane hit the pentagon" theory:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Anyone with a brain knows that an airplane hit the pentagon/wtc. Don't be fooled by these people.

People please do not pay attention to this garbage, Also I urge you not to look at these movies either:

9/11: In Plane Site
Painful Deceptions

If you want to watch a video regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories that only give you the facts you can check out:

The Truth and Lies of 9/11
Martial Law 9/11: Rise of the Police State

mvsc2demon

02-26-2006, 10:11 PM

Martial Law 9/11: Rise of the Police State
Is that the one of Alex Jones?

I remember seeing it and taught it was great!

Ragetowersrage

02-26-2006, 10:19 PM

http://toothpastefordinner.com/111402/world-trade-center-game.gif

Nuff said

AHVB

02-26-2006, 10:21 PM

Is that the one of Alex Jones?

I remember seeing it and taught it was great!

yep

RoninChaos

02-26-2006, 10:53 PM

AHVB

02-27-2006, 09:44 AM

Alex Jones is a fucking lunatic. I can't believe that you'd actually say "Hey listen to this guy! IT'S ALL TRUTH BABY!"

On second thought, I don't know why I would think you have the good sense not to listen to some lunatic like Alex Jones. "The truth is out there" right?

Hm, yeah I admit he is a lunatic. The reason he is credible is because he backs up his statements on screen and confronts polititians, journalists and other people face to face. Moving along, eh...

Once again, loose change is bullshit.

Koop

02-27-2006, 10:40 AM

If you want to watch a video regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories that only give you the facts you can check out:

The Truth and Lies of 9/11
Martial Law 9/11: Rise of the Police State

Links please...

jae hoon

02-27-2006, 11:02 AM

Damn Dios X I expected better from you then some wack ass conspiracy theory shit. These are a dime a dozen.

LBt1st

02-27-2006, 12:03 PM

AHVB

02-27-2006, 01:31 PM

Watch the video. There's plenty of facts to consider. Not theories, not questions, facts.
Like the fact that the buildings fell at near-freefall speed. Or the fact that cell phones don't work at the altitudes the planes were flying at. How about the fact that in nearly any video of the towers falling you can see detonation charges going off many floors below the collapsing floors.

http://isohunt.com/torrents.php?ihq=loose+change&ext=&op=and (multiple high quality versions to pick from)

btw this video is encouraged to be freely destributed by it's authors. Downloading it is 100% legal.

-Bean I

See these are the thingss that loose change gets correct. The problem is that they promote the already disproven "no plane hit the pentagon/wtc theories." they mix in the facts with the bullshit.

This is martial law 9/11 rise of the police state; in this film he covers:
The bush-nazi link
Arnold swarzenegger
the police state in new york
michael moore
sound cannons in ny
pre 9/11 warnings
and a bunch of other shit.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661&q=martial+law

The truth and lies of 9/11 is a presentation by Michael Ruppert, a former LAPD narcotics detective:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145&q=truth+lies+9%2F11

In that video Mike Ruppert also confronts former CIA director John deutch about the cia drug connection.

LBt1st

02-27-2006, 02:18 PM

See these are the thingss that loose change gets correct.

So you agree that the WTC was a demolition, the cell phone calls were fake, and people were blown to bits by explosives....

But you still believe a plane hit the pentagon?
So.. where is it? Where are those two 6-Ton engines? The bodies? The videos that the FBI took? The two black boxes?
Yeah I saw your link showing a bunch of burnt stuff.. some of which confirmed not to be parts of a 757. True there was an explosion.. actually there were two.

The day I see a video showing a plane hitting the pentagon is the day I believe a plane hit it. This should be an easy task. They had multiple cameras filming everything afterall.

-Bean I

angryliberal

02-27-2006, 02:32 PM

Your telling me a plane hit the pentagon? So.. where is it? Where are those two 6-Ton engines? The bodies? The videos that the FBI took? The two black boxes?
Yeah I saw your link showing a bunch of burnt stuff.. some of which confirmed not to be parts of a 757. True there was an explosion.. actually there were two.

The day I see a video showing a plane hitting the pentagon is the day I believe a plane hit it. This should be an easy task. They had multiple cameras filming everything afterall.

-Bean I
there's a shitload of eye whitness accounts - do you have any idea about the concept of ockham's razor? basically it states that the simplest answer is the correct answer. so lets weigh the answers -

a.) a plane hit the pentagon, backed up by photos, eye whitness accounts and dead bodies
b.) the government manufactured a plane crash, or lack there of, manufactured hundreds of witnesses, destroyed a plane that took off that morning, killing all the people on board, convinced both policemen and firemen whose numbers exceed 60 to coverup for them, and over 50 forensic scientist from varying cities to lie about the bodies all during a media circus.

plauisble deniability takes the lack of hard evidence on either side, the hard evidence in this case is overwhelming. whether it was arab extremists or americans who flew the plane into the building, thats for you who tilt at windmills to decide. me, i tend to follow logic, and until i actually see something thats not vague in its description of events, i'll believe that the fact that not one eye witness has recanted their testimony of the events they saw, and my general belief that given the number of individuals who had to be present to coverup this whole thing, maybe it was a plane that hit it. when the editor of usa today comes out and says it was a plane, i tend to believe a high ranking journalist has a bit to lose in the face of media competition. people love gossip, and it sells, if there was any real validity to any of this and any of it extended beyond simple thoeries reported by individuals with a clear agenda, maybe i might say hmmm, but i'm not. when i look at a cloud, i see a cloud...its my imagination that makes it something else...

LBt1st

02-27-2006, 03:11 PM

a plane hit the pentagon, backed up by photos, eye whitness accounts and dead bodies

Show me a photo of a 757 hitting the pentagon.

Witnesses have ranged from saying they saw a helicopter to a cessina to an airliner, to a white high altitude plane.

Dead bodies? Where? I've yet to see any...

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/pentalawn.html

I've yet to hear how 12 tons of titanium and steel "vaporized".

Oh that's right, these guys (http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/cleanup.html) are hauling it away!

angryliberal

02-27-2006, 04:02 PM

Show me a photo of a 757 hitting the pentagon.

Witnesses have ranged from saying they saw a helicopter to a cessina to an airliner, to a white high altitude plane.

Dead bodies? Where? I've yet to see any...

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/pentalawn.html

I've yet to hear how 12 tons of titanium and steel "vaporized".

Oh that's right, these guys (http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/pentagon/cleanup.html) are hauling it away!
hmm, the 60 bodies returned to their families. i want you to look a family member in the eye and tell them what you believed happened. look into the eyes of the firemen and policemen who had to work hard to clean it up and call them liars. how about the editor of usa today who watched the plane fly into the building. you are looking at windmills and seeing monsters. and even when one theory is disproved, or one monster is revealed as a windmill, it is by some magic or coverup that it is so. i use rationality and rationality tells me that given all possible scenarios, no plane hitting has WAY MORE holes and conveniences in its story than that of a plane hitting it.

you were not there. on the day of the attack, not one person came out and said, man, i didn't see a plane, whats going on? the first person to introduce the idea? a individual in france known for supporting paranoid delusions and anti-government propaganda. several different sources have debinked the no plane theory ranging from conspiracy theorist themselves to popular mechanics magazine. many explanations and counter arguments have been made. taking sum total of all the information on both sides, your choice is to follow that which has the least factual backing. that in itself is irrationality.

edit: posting information on a website whose agenda is to support the theory instead of being at the very least nuetral is not going to convince me one bit, please try using something logical - its like visiting a christian site in hopes of finding the proof of god...

Alex

02-27-2006, 04:36 PM

RoninChaos

02-27-2006, 04:44 PM

angryliberal

02-27-2006, 05:06 PM

im kinda late on this no plane on the pentagon thing. How exactly was it disproven? Was it ever explained why there was no lawn damage, No wide damage where the wings would have been, no photos and no huge plane rubble?
did you read the whole of that thread ahvb posted? i mean, i dislike ahvb beliefs for the most part, but that man is a conspiracy theorist for ages, studying this shit, and if he even says it ain't so, its probably worth believing. you say you are new to it, read all the rebuttals and answers throughout the pages of the thread he posted. then look it up on popular mechanics, snopes, urbanlegends.about.com and various other sites...plus explain the mass of eye witnesses, the dead bodies and PLEASE, PLEASE tell me it more than one or two points that make you disbelieve the 200 other points...

edit: damn ahvb - that really is a the thread of info i've been looking for. never thought i'd say this, but good find and good job...

Okame

02-27-2006, 06:20 PM

Or someone could just post that picture of part of the wing with an engine connected to it sitting on the lawn of the Pentagon.

KeG

02-27-2006, 06:35 PM

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3122705_identifiying_misinformation.shtml

Thought I'd toss this article up since it's pretty insightful and addresses a lot of what's going on in this thread.

"The "no Boeing hit the Pentagon" claim is the most important and widespread 9/11 hoax. It was probably set up before the event, since government agents seized surveillance camera videos within minutes of the crash (which is evidence for foreknowledge, but not for “no plane”). It is extremely unlikely that the conspirators who allowed (and facilitated) 9/11 would not have taken care to create misdirecting hoaxes before the "attack," since they were very much aware that large segments of the population would have suspicions about the events. It cannot have been difficult for them to anticipate the need to disrupt skeptical inquiry with red herrings, hoaxes, false dichotomies, etc."

LBt1st

02-27-2006, 09:06 PM

hmm, the 60 bodies returned to their families. i want you to look a family member in the eye and tell them what you believed happened. look into the eyes of the firemen and policemen who had to work hard to clean it up and call them liars.

No bodies were returned to anyone.
And what does "working hard" or being a hurt family member have to do with anything? Does working hard or having someone die change events? No.
Af for the firefighters and policemen. If were talking about NYC, they all agree the WTC was taken down by demolition. There's many videos and interviews backing this up.

And this nonsense about some french guy... Dude thousands of people myself included started questioning this shit from day one.

Or someone could just post that picture of part of the wing with an engine connected to it sitting on the lawn of the Pentagon.
You got a picture of a 757 Engine on the scene of the Pentagon? I've love to see it.

I've got to go to work. Just watch Loose Change. It'll save me some time.

-Bean I

angryliberal

02-27-2006, 09:27 PM

cool man. get those four armed monsters, but when they turn out to be windmills, don't be so suprised.

however, for survival in an argument, you may not want to dance around in circles chanting 'loose change, loose change' with your fingers planter firmly in your ears. please, once again, provide me with ONE SINGLE piece of non-bias information that proves it...not loose change. thats, as i said earlier, like trying to prove god exist by simply using the bible as a source. i don't even feel like i've argued with anyone, but simply had my point proven through my opponents ignorance. you did, however, use the very skillfull tactic of only quoting the part you want to and ignoring my request for valid information. kinda like what conspiracy theorists do...

AHVB

02-27-2006, 10:23 PM

Dude read this article, AN AIRPLANE DID HIT THE PENTAGON. That whole "airplane didnt hit the pentagon" thing is just bullshit that's put out there by the government in order to discredit the 9/11 truth movement. READ THIS LINK:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

And like i said man, when i posted this link in loose change's website they DELETED MY POST. Dude it's complete bullshit; An airplane did hit the pentagon and there are hundreds of eyewitness accounts.

ALso check out these sites:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ppfinal.html
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

AHVB

02-27-2006, 10:30 PM

AHVB

02-27-2006, 10:42 PM

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/Steven_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006/BYU_Professor_Steven_E_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006_911_9-11_Lecture_WTC-7_911TruthSeekers.org.wmv

This is a lecture by Dr. Steven Jones (Department of Physics and Astronomy - Brigham Young University) on the collapse of the WTC buildings.

AHVB

02-27-2006, 11:48 PM

So you agree that the WTC was a demolition, the cell phone calls were fake, and people were blown to bits by explosives....

But you still believe a plane hit the pentagon?
So.. where is it? Where are those two 6-Ton engines? The bodies? The videos that the FBI took? The two black boxes?
Yeah I saw your link showing a bunch of burnt stuff.. some of which confirmed not to be parts of a 757. True there was an explosion.. actually there were two.

The day I see a video showing a plane hitting the pentagon is the day I believe a plane hit it. This should be an easy task. They had multiple cameras filming everything afterall.

-Bean I

Yes I agree that the WTC was a demolition, the cell phone calls I'm not too sure.

These theories regarding a plane not hitting the pentagon/wtc are only meant to distract you from the real issues that can be PROVEN, for example:

The 5 Wargames on 9/11
NORAD standing down
Public Officials Warned not to fly on 9/11
The 5 Israeli mossad agents arrested on 9/11

Ask yourself this:

With 2 planes already known to have been hijacked, an airport 5 miles away, one hitting the wtc a few minutes before and one hitting the wtc again, and this event regarding bush visiting the school announced weeks in advance... How in the hell did the secret service know that the president was safe in that school? Why did they not wisk him out upon finding out that a second plane just hit the wtc? Why did they allow him to remain in there for another hour?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/bush_card.wmv

Chief of Staff Andrew Card states in his recollection of 9/11 that he whispered to President Bush "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack".

This wmv video shows Card delivering his message to Bush, and it demonstrates the speed at which he would have had to have to spoken the above words.

It is impossible to whisper at this speed, so why have both he and Bush lied about the content of the message?

Why did the 9/11 Commission ignore this lie?

AHVB

02-28-2006, 12:03 AM

another article ripping loose change and the "no plane hit the pentagon/wtc theories" a new asshole:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html

like i said many times before, loose change is nothing but disinformation.

FistsofFury

02-28-2006, 12:54 AM

This is martial law 9/11 rise of the police state; in this film he covers:
The bush-nazi link
Arnold swarzenegger
the police state in new york
michael moore
sound cannons in ny
pre 9/11 warnings
and a bunch of other shit.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6495462761605341661&q=martial+law
.

Thanks, watching it now. Rep for you. And yeah dude does seem a little...exagerrated.

I'd like to think that I arm myself with information and knowledge, bu treally the more I learn the more powerless I feel. What am I supposed to do? How can I change things? Besides pretty simple things such as voting.

I just feel way over my head, like an ant fighting a 5 year old kid. I feel like I'm better off just not caring, because either way I can't do anything.

AHVB

02-28-2006, 06:20 AM

Thanks, watching it now. Rep for you. And yeah dude does seem a little...exagerrated.

I'd like to think that I arm myself with information and knowledge, bu treally the more I learn the more powerless I feel. What am I supposed to do? How can I change things? Besides pretty simple things such as voting.

I just feel way over my head, like an ant fighting a 5 year old kid. I feel like I'm better off just not caring, because either way I can't do anything.

spread the word, participate in LOCAL elections and BUG THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR CONGRESSMAN.

LBt1st

02-28-2006, 09:42 AM

angryliberal

02-28-2006, 10:08 AM

jae hoon

02-28-2006, 10:11 AM

He is just going to believe what he wants to believe, you cant help stupidity.

AHVB

02-28-2006, 10:17 AM

So I'm to believe the impact was powerful enough to vaporize a 60 Ton plane with both of it's titanium engines (each weighing in a 6 tons)... yet the windows of the pentagon didn't break, the lawn wasn't harmed in any way and 60 bodies were found intact.

Riiiiight.

This is my last post. (http://www.luclin.org/files/jamond/Retarded.jpg)

-Bean I

Some windows did break. And i must remind you that this is the pentagon we're speaking about, not some random building dude.

Yes you are to believe that because that's what happens to airplanes when they hit very hard objects at very high speeds.The airplane was strong enough to penetrate the pentagon, but the building is very strong so as it impacted, it fell apart as it penetrated the building. I suggest you read the links i posted. I keep repeating it, Loose change is disinfo and those "no plane hit the pentagon/wtc" theories are complete B.S. THey're meant to distract u from the real hard facts of 9/11.

Dude with regards to the lawn, unless the airplane skid through the dirt, the lawn argument is irrelevant.

Koop

02-28-2006, 11:33 AM

all this shyt is spookin me the fucc out...

ahvb...damn you....should of never asked for that link....rep points n-e- way...

RoninChaos

03-01-2006, 03:55 AM

white shadow

03-01-2006, 06:53 AM

....a substance called paper. :rofl:

Anyways as much as the documentary wanted to cover every angle they left a BIG GAPING HOLE. One that basically crushes their entire arguement.

What happened to those passengers and why are their families still living at the same areas spouse-less and parent-less? :bluu:

Not only that half of their contradictions seemed to be most likely bad press information, because everyone during 9-11 wanted the big scoop so there was bound to be some bad apples somewhere.

Oh and another thing, didn't the World Trade Center rake in more revenue per year than whatever *alledged* billion dollars of gold that they had in storage per year?:confused:

Lastly, couldn't those so-called "explosions" be just the braeking down of the integrity cause by the stress of the fire? *SNAP!*

angryliberal

03-01-2006, 07:05 AM

white shadow

03-01-2006, 07:46 AM

yes, but that doesn't feed people's need to create imaginary world where everything has a secret agenda...we have paranioa to feed here people!

Well unfortunately that is true, nevertheless, I found the documentary worth watching for the entertainment value alone. It had good music too.:razzy:

AHVB

03-01-2006, 01:21 PM

That documentary was crap and delibaretly disinformative. I confronted the creators of this movie with these facts only to have my comments deleted from their site. Watch the links to the videos that I posted.

With regards to the collapse of the towers, i suggest you watch the "Stephen Jones" video link i posted. Here's a link to their website.

http://www.st911.org/

And here's the link to the video he made;

http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/Steven_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006/BYU_Professor_Steven_E_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006_911_9-11_Lecture_WTC-7_911TruthSeekers.org.wmv

Remember this is the same guy who went on msnbc to show the world his theory, only to have the host (a) interrupt him like a motherfucker and (b) have msnbc refuse to show the video of the collapse of wtc.7.

for his paper check out:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

(Regarding steven jones on msnbc)

Transcript:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10053445/

Tucker carlsons final thought:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8063563/#051116a

MSNBC video:
http://www.question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Steven%20Jones%20Shows%20WTC% 20Demolition%20Evidence.wmv

CBS Interview:
http://www.question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Professor%20Steven%20Jones%20 on%20Utah%20TV%20News.wmv

jae hoon

03-01-2006, 01:55 PM

I am about 20 minutes into The Martial Law video and all I can say right now is the samething I have always thought. Communism and Communists themselves are pretty fucking stupid.

AHVB

03-01-2006, 09:05 PM

I am about 20 minutes into The Martial Law video and all I can say right now is the samething I have always thought. Communism and Communists themselves are pretty fucking stupid.

Yeah mang, i've met some of those people, they're on a new level of retard.

suleman

03-02-2006, 08:07 AM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7614450509687459999&q=9%2F11+Conspiracy - video that covers most of what you said... but has a few tidbits of missed information.

AdverseSolutions

03-02-2006, 09:20 AM

martial law video is stoooooooooopid (although some of what it says is obviously right, even a stopped watch is right twice a day). look, the pier 57 'concentration camp' that protestors were taken to (and obviously I am against this way of treating people) cannot in ANY way be called a concentration camp, which is always a place where people WORK, usually to death. what factory were they put in? none. just stupid hyperbole, and that's all this lunatic that you follow can come up with.

nice also how they make sure to zoom in on the bitchy Jewish lady in the subway to let us know that ZOG is even in the transport workers' union.

omg and this is great, 'now that the elite has used socialism to centralize the people's wealth they're going to phase out programs and it's all going to go to corporate welfare' THIS IS ALEX JONES TALKING. LOLOL, so when was America socialist?? I must've missed it!

his comments on the communists are also hilarious. who gives a fuck if eisenhower thought castro was an abraham lincoln?? remember what JFK tried to do with castro?? so does he really think that the communists work for his skull and bones order? hilarious. the US government put Mao in?? lolzzzzzz

btw everything he says is not outright anti-semitic but is just preparing marks like AHVB for anti-semitism. 'the big banks (hook nosez omgRRR!!!) created communism etc.!' then he starts talking about how we need to close the borders while claiming to be neither left nor right and an opponent of the 'police state'.

true trash. stopped around the 20 minute mark.

suleman

03-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Alex Jones it the one who infiltrated the Bohemian Grove and came out with pictures, audio, and if i'm not mistaken, video as well. At least he's doing something..

AdverseSolutions

03-02-2006, 12:31 PM

how is this 'something'?

suleman

03-02-2006, 01:35 PM

Well, if it isn't "something", what the fuck is it? Your beloved eisenhower used to attend. Get lost, hate mongrel.

AHVB

03-03-2006, 12:39 AM

Seriously dude, grow up(Adverse Solutions).

First of all, people were locked up in pier 57 and that place was old, abandoned and filled with asbestos. Noone said that pier 57 was officially a concentration camp, that's just something that some dude said in the video.

Noone mentioned that the lady was jewish, AS a matter of fact, why did you bother mentioning this? THe only reason that he showed the woman in the 1st place was to show how ridiculous these security measures were in NY. If anything the only conspiracy theorist here is you; because you seem to try to make most of the things that i post as some anti-semitic conspiracy theory (OOh Nooez!, Teh Alex Jonez Hatez teh j00z, so h3 put a jewsz lady bitchin OMG ANTI-Semitiz CONSPIRAXY!!1!! NOEZ! itz teh antie S3mitez phueLL for AHVB'z Antee-sematism OH NOEZZZ KONESPIRACY!!!)

"when was america socialist"

He never said that. Dude anyone with a fucking brain KNOWS that a'lot of the communst revolutions were funded or helped by the central banks and/or the USA. Research how Lenin got into power, Who trained castro? What did trujillo do before he became dictator?

What's wrong with closing the borders? Well EXCUSE ME for caring about this country's national security and economy.

With regards to the bohemian grove. He snuck in there and videotaped this ritual which our world leaders engage in; does that not worry you?

Kalypso

03-05-2006, 01:43 PM

Bump.

Thanks for posting the link in my thread, didn't find this on search.

(When you say old, post links, not just say old).

av2k

03-05-2006, 03:54 PM

Bump.

Thanks for posting the link in my thread, didn't find this on search.

(When you say old, post links, not just say old).

no problem :)

AHVB

03-05-2006, 11:02 PM

Other Thread?

AdverseSolutions

03-05-2006, 11:30 PM

oh ahvbee,

actually it was alex jones who called pier 57 a concentration camp, and he did it in his typical, sensationalist way, so it wasn't just 'some guy' peripheral to how the movie was made.

you claim dude never says that 'america was socialist'?? he says it right here:
'the elite have used socialism to consolidate the people's wealth, now that it's under their control...' yada yada. do you understand the absurdity of this statement??

and you are an absolute idiot if you think that lenin got into power with the help of some banks. you do realize that the russian revolution fought against a white army that had full troop deployments from america, france, britain and japan don't you?? and that they were fighting the october revolution which lenin and the bolsheviks were a part of right?? so how could they put lenin into power dude? simple history lessons would help you not be such a douche.

who trained castro?? i dunno dude, who did? what about the massive US invasion that killed hundreds of cubans in an attempt to depose him? do you really take seriously this lunatic's rantings about communism being controlled by the US government?? you slip further and further each day. it's a joy to witness.

and that's right, i'm for the destruction of national borders, which are always methods of controlling and policing populations. look how many pisspoor mexican and salvadorean workers lose their lives just trying to get over the border each year, and look at the role of US foreign policy in qualitatively undermining any attempt at self-governance in those regions throughout the 80s and up. and look at how many korean, chinese, nepali workers get put in jail simply for overstaying their visa in japan, for wanting a better life here on the islands. you should realize that your mami came across a border once, as did my family and my friend's families. it's not the border that should be strengthened but the human community on both sides of it!

and as for the bohemian grove, yes i couldn't give a fuck what our world leaders do, precisely because the world i want is totally different from the one they oversee. it wouldn't surprise me if they're sacrificing virgins like they're sacrificing iraqis and africans for money right now. it's you who have the pathetic qualities of having faith in them, and that's why you obsess over them, because you have no power yourself. you're like my grandmother and her soaps.

AHVB

03-05-2006, 11:39 PM

Nonsense

Seriously, arguing with someone as closed minded as you has gotten old and tiring. You are a terrible debater and for the most part all you do is make false claims about my beliefs and what i say. Pull your head out of your ass man. I've destroyed your false claims in nearly every debate we've been in. I'm done arguing with you. I'd destroy you in this one but what difference would it make? You make false claims and when i hit you with the truth you just turn a blind eye. You truly have your head up your assand if the truth doesnt set you free, then nothing will.

If you are ignorant to the point where you deny something that even any non-conspiracy theorist history teacher would know (Who trained castro) then need a reality check man. Research your history from as many aspects as you can.

AdverseSolutions

03-05-2006, 11:44 PM

awesome! ignore my points and pretend that i made some 'false claims' about you. hilarious.

but there's a reason i don't take you seriously (and neither does RC i'd think). you don't have a fucking clue what you're talking about, which i just proved.

btw, in response to your edit, i didn't deny anything about who trained castro actually, i'm just hoping you can explain why the CIA had to launch an invasion to try to end the cuban revolution if he's working for them, but you won't answer that.

AHVB

03-06-2006, 12:06 AM

Like i said, i'm done arguing with you. Everything i said is fact, research your history.

Castro was trained in the U.S.
Trujillo was was trained by the U.S
The Central banks funded lenins rise to power
He never said that america was socialist, i'd love a quote where he says that

Well I'm all for national sovereignty, EXCUSE ME if i care about my countries national security and economy. Open borders only bring problems, like many people claim, the 9/11 hijackers came in through the canadian border and most of the drugs come from the mexican border. ASk yourself people, Why do they want to take our freedoms in order to obtain security meanwhile they leave the borders wide open? If the "threat" of terrorism was so "real" then the borders and ports would be on total lock (I know i stemmed to another topic.. blah).

THe bohemian grove... You don't care what our world leaders do? these people worship a freaking owl for gods sake, and burn a human in effige. Then why in the hell do you engage in political debates?

Edit: Why? I don't fucking know. They did the exact same thing with trujillo, saddam and bin laden. All these people were trained or helped by the us at one point then a few years later had to be exterminated by the u.s. Also look up who helped pinochet get into power. Why don't you research the bush-nazi connection (This was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt so i dare you argue this with me), Research Iran-Contra. I can go on for fucking days man. these are all examples of people in the u.s. creating their own enemies.

tsoteddy

03-06-2006, 01:47 AM

Ernesto this report is the shit, i will recomend it

AHVB

03-06-2006, 09:09 AM

Ernesto this report is the shit, i will recomend it

I'm lost.

AHVB

03-29-2006, 05:37 PM

I really don't feel like starting another thread. Anyway, check this out. Actor Charlie Sheen & Alex Jones were on CNN last week. Check out these clips. THe bad thing is that Charlie promotes the "no plane hit the pentagon" theory. THey're good watches regardless. TOo bad Alex comes off as an lunatic again, enjoy!

Video: At Final Count 83% Support Sheen on 9/11
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/sheen_cnn_poll_shows_82_percent_support.htm

Video:
Video: Alex Jones' Second Appearance On Showbiz Tonight
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/sheen_alex_jones_showbiz_tonight_second_appearance .htm

Video: Alex Jones On CNN Showbiz Tonight
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/sheen_alex_jones_showbiz_tonight_video.htm

Video: Recap
http://infowars.com/articles/sept11/sheen_showbiz_monday_recap.htm

Video: Initial Charlie Sheen CNN report
http://www.infowarsmedia.com/video/news_clips/september_11/ShowbizTonight20060322_tag.wmv

CNN Headline News - Showbiz Tonight:
Other Guests Comment on Sheen & 9/11
http://infowars.com/video/clips/news/september_11/032406_showbiz_tonight_guests_wm.htm

AHVB

03-29-2006, 08:39 PM

Bump :(

catchafire

04-01-2006, 08:40 AM

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 09:16 AM

...anyone who thinks that 19 arabs with boxcutters brought down two 100+ story towers, a 47 story building, severely damaged the most protected building in the world...got norad to stand down for 1 hour and 20 minutes, turned off the pentagon's missile defense system, crashed a plane into a field...in addition to...ah fuck it...thats enuff...anyone who even entertains moronics like this is too far in the world of retardednessy to by saved...oh well...
QFT

-Bean I

AHVB

04-01-2006, 09:35 AM

No plane HIT the pentagon! Come on folks, how the hell can a plane hit the pentagon so accurately and there be NO black box or shread of evidence of a damaged plane.

Also, the WTC was NOT taken down by airplanes but by a demolition team. Why can't you guys get this through you THICK skulls. Man, you people will eat anything the government feeds you...

There is evidence of a damaged plane. The black boxes were found but they mysteriously "dissapeared".

Yes the WTC was taken down by a demolition team. But the notion which states that a "pod" hit the WTC and pentagon is complete b.s.

Zachman

04-01-2006, 09:38 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the government would fabricate the events of 9/11?

catchafire

04-01-2006, 09:44 AM

You mean, national support to invade Iraq, Afghanistan, soon to be Iran, and other countries isn't a good enough reason for you? Public support w/out question isn't a good enough reason to you? When it boils down to it, G.W.s tour of duty in the white house was catastrophically insignificant as he didn't do anything positive for the american people.

Oh, and supposedly for money as well.

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 09:50 AM

If you were a terrorist wanting to take down three buildings in the middle of NYC.. Don't ya think you'd knock them over instead of doing much more difficult implosions?

-Bean I

Zachman

04-01-2006, 10:02 AM

catchafire

04-01-2006, 10:12 AM

Yes i'm fucking serious. And this theory just happens to be the one that I believe.

AHVB

04-01-2006, 10:25 AM

Can anyone explain to me why the government would fabricate the events of 9/11?

Well, just take a look at the unjust events that happened as a result of 9/11.

The Patriot Act was put into place. Congress was given this bill in the middle of the night and were only given 40 minutes to read this thing that was hundreds of pages long.

Afghanistan was invaded (The. U.S. was massing troops for months before hand around Afghanistan). The Taliban were taken out (mind you, they asked the U.S. for PROOF that bin laden was involved in exchange for osama himself). As a result of that, a pipeline (which was already planned to have been built years ago, but the taliban wouldnt allow it) was built through afghanistan and a former member of UNOCAL (the company wanting the pipeline) was put into power (harmid Karzai)...

The invasion of Iraq. It's no mystery that the president and his administration lied their asses off about EVERYTHING regarding this matter. From the pre-war intelligence, to the 9/11 link, to the "last throes" of the insurgency. These PROVEN lies have led to the deaths of thousands of U.S. soldiers and the permanent injury of thousands of others. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of dead innocent iraqis. It amazes me how people can say that the believe that the BUsh administration was not involved in 9/11 when not too long afterwards that same administration lied it's ass off about iraq and led to so many deaths aaround the world that it make the amount of deaths on 9/11 look like a walk in the park.

This whole war on terrorism is a fraud, and 9/11 is being used to justify it. They tell us that they want to take our freedoms over here but the borders are wide open.

Now take a look at Operation NORTHWOODS, Google it. It's an official declassified U.S. document which clearly states that they would stage fake terror attacks to blame it on cuba to be used as a justification to invade cuba.

Research how the CIA would stage fake terror attacks to blame it on the mossadeq in Iran a few decades back. Though it's been removed, this was on the CIA's own website and the New York Times had a complete special about this.

Take a look at The Project For A New American Century's documents. Where in their report "Rebuilding America's Defenses" they clearly stated that in order for them to get their plans on the roll, they need a helpful "pearl harbor" like event.

So to answer your question, the reason that they carried out 9/11 is for power.

Zachman

04-01-2006, 10:29 AM

Yes i'm fucking serious. And this theory just happens to be the one that I believe.

I'm sorry, but your theory is based off of half-truths and lies. After 9/11 the economy went down the drain, the bush haters started to reveal themselves, and the liberal media started to show it's true colors. Seriously, what has bush or the country gained since 9/11?

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 10:39 AM

If a murderer gains nothing, are the victims not dead?

-Bean I

Zachman

04-01-2006, 10:43 AM

If a murderer gains nothing, are the victims not dead?

-Bean I
If you actually believe the shit you're saying then there's no hope for you.

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 10:51 AM

Wow, can't beat that argument :P

-Bean I

Zachman

04-01-2006, 11:35 AM

catchafire

04-01-2006, 12:03 PM

I'm sorry, but your theory is based off of half-truths and lies. After 9/11 the economy went down the drain, the bush haters started to reveal themselves, and the liberal media started to show it's true colors. Seriously, what has bush or the country gained since 9/11?

And you actually believe all the garbage you read in the papers and listen to on the news? Tell me why do you blindly believe Bush and his administration without second guessing him? Also, I don't have to be a Bush hater to see that something ain't right.

angryliberal

04-01-2006, 12:03 PM

the only good that will come of all this new exposure on these half baked, lunatic theories is that we will probably finally see them brought out as the lunatic theories that they are. i don't take everything the government feeds me at face value, but i'm quiccker to believe the 100 or so eye witnesses to the pentagon attack than the french guy who wasn't there...

catchafire

04-01-2006, 12:08 PM

What you're saying is so ridiculous and misguided that arguing any further with either one of you would be pointless. You're playing politics with an event that took over 3,000 lives and I find that to be in poor taste.

I'm not playing politics with an event that took how ever many lives that were taken... George Bush is.

Zachman

04-01-2006, 12:10 PM

And you actually believe all the garbage you read in the papers and listen to on the news? Tell me why do you blindly believe Bush and his administration without second guessing him? Also, I don't have to be a Bush hater to see that something ain't right.

I don't blindly believe anything that's feed to me and that includes retarded conspiracy theories. Has your hate for Bush clouded your thinking process because nothing you are saying is rational.

AHVB

04-01-2006, 12:29 PM

Any comments on the vids?

Jaimus

04-01-2006, 12:38 PM

what the fuck is united 93

AHVB

04-01-2006, 12:40 PM

the only good that will come of all this new exposure on these half baked, lunatic theories is that we will probably finally see them brought out as the lunatic theories that they are.

Half baked?

Well let me see, the Following people have said that there was U.S. Government involvement in 9/11 and taht we were lied to about what happened on 9/11:

Paul Craig Roberts, the father of Reaganomics and former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury.

Ray McGovern, residential advisor and CIA analyst.

Andreas von Buelow, former German defense minister.

Michael Meacher, former Blair cabinet member

Morgan Reynolds, former Chief Economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term

Are all these men lunatics?

catchafire

04-01-2006, 01:14 PM

I don't blindly believe anything that's feed to me and that includes retarded conspiracy theories. Has your hate for Bush clouded your thinking process because nothing you are saying is rational.

My hate for Bush? Is this the only answer conservatives have when confronted w/ someone who disapproves of the current administration? No sir, I have a mind and I use it, I believe what I believe. Why don't people question the government anymore? :annoy:

Zachman

04-01-2006, 01:24 PM

My hate for Bush? Is this the only answer conservatives have when confronted w/ someone who disapproves of the current administration? No sir, I have a mind and I use it, I believe what I believe. Why don't people question the government anymore? :annoy:

I consider myself a moderate more than a conservative.

angryliberal

04-01-2006, 01:47 PM

Half baked?

Well let me see, the Following people have said that there was U.S. Government involvement in 9/11 and taht we were lied to about what happened on 9/11:

Paul Craig Roberts, the father of Reaganomics and former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury.

Ray McGovern, residential advisor and CIA analyst.

Andreas von Buelow, former German defense minister.

Michael Meacher, former Blair cabinet member

Morgan Reynolds, former Chief Economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush's first term

Are all these men lunatics?
well, i was mostly talking about the pentagon no plane theory...i thought we sat on the same side on that one...

catchafire

04-01-2006, 01:56 PM

I consider myself a moderate more than a conservative.

Yeah, that's the trend that has been going on lately. Conservatives too embarassed of Bush so they call themselves "moderate", and democrats embarassed of party and being label "liberals" are doing the same thing. If you voted for Bush, then your republican in my eyes. Vice versa if you voted for Kerry, calling yourself "moderate", even though you voted for the Democratic party.

Zachman

04-01-2006, 02:18 PM

Yeah, that's the trend that has been going on lately. Conservatives too embarassed of Bush so they call themselves "moderate", and democrats embarassed of party and being label "liberals" are doing the same thing. If you voted for Bush, then your republican in my eyes. Vice versa if you voted for Kerry, calling yourself "moderate", even though you voted for the Democratic party.

I don't like the "democrats" or the "republicans" for their one sided views. I consider myself a moderate independent and I'm not the biggest fan of Bush.

AHVB

04-01-2006, 02:28 PM

well, i was mostly talking about the pentagon no plane theory...i thought we sat on the same side on that one...

Oh, derf. I feel like an idiot.

But yeah once again, an airplane did hit the pentagon.Those "pod" theories take advantage of people who have no idea regarding physics. Please ignore them.

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 03:22 PM

So can someone tell me what caused Building 7 to implode?

-Bean I

AHVB

04-01-2006, 03:39 PM

Explosives.

LBt1st

04-01-2006, 03:58 PM

Explosives.

And can anyone prove that wrong? Can someone tell me, if not explosives, what caused Building 7 to implode?

-Bean I

RoninChaos

04-01-2006, 04:46 PM

QFT

-Bean I

First you said you were done with this thread, now you're back. And you never answered my question. Is there a reason you haven't?

AHVB

04-01-2006, 11:38 PM

And can anyone prove that wrong? Can someone tell me, if not explosives, what caused Building 7 to implode?

-Bean I

Well FEMA's report does say that they have no idea what caused it to collapse. They just say that fire probably brought the building down.

LBt1st

04-02-2006, 01:16 AM

Yeah I was done, then the thread got resurrected and I'll admit I couldn't resist. I'm honestly not sure why I should care what you guys think happened. I baffles me that such a huge lie was told to the country and people just nod and move on.

And to answer your question, no.

Well FEMA's report does say that they have no idea what caused it to collapse. They just say that fire probably brought the building down.

It's physically impossible for an air fueled fire to melt structural steel. And even if it was, where did the fire come from?

-Bean I

blood_sin

04-02-2006, 01:54 AM

I watched those two docs the other day. Loose Change and Martial Law. There was a lot of overlapping info in them, so I don't think LC was made just to throw people off, it sounds ridiculous. If anything, fahrenheit 9/11 was made to throw people off. But still, ML was way more interesting, even if it turned out all the theories were proven wrong, it was still way entertaining.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 07:41 AM

i'm an angry asshole liberal, so i love this shit

ShinRaven

04-02-2006, 08:10 AM

Admittedly I was suckered in by the Pentagon "theory" presented in Loose Change. After reading that article ahvb posted I now realize how misguided THAT part of loose change is.

However, I still think there is some validity to the other major points made in the doc. It seems completely plausible that the administration engineered the WTC attacks. Think about it, they had evrything to gain from making everyone believe that "terrorists" were behind the attacks. Plus if we do , for the most part, agree that there were controlled demolitions in the towers that brought them down, then it is only logical to take it one step further. There were scheduled evacuations of the towers in the weeks leading up to 9/11. Who do you think had access to the WTC during that time? Terrorists?

If you really think that then that's pretty funny. It's obvious that it must have been government workers or at the very least people who were doing the dirty work FOR those in the administration.

I fail to see how it could be anything other than a plot planned by our own government if it is in fact true that there were controlled demolitions in the towers.

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 11:20 AM

Anybody promoting "planes didn't hit the pentagon/WTC" or "the jews did it to cause us to invade" is a raving lunatic. If you want to polute your brains with that kind of garbage feel free to do so, but please don't have children.

"The "no Boeing hit the Pentagon" claim is the most important and widespread 9/11 hoax. It was probably set up before the event, since government agents seized surveillance camera videos within minutes of the crash (which is evidence for foreknowledge, but not for “no plane”

No it's not. It's because footage of the Pentagon is 1. classified, 2. illegal, 3. government controled. The government doesn't unclassify information because some idiots form a conspiracy theory, or some cry babies bitch about it. That's not how it works.

Of course it's extremely funny when people bitch over it and jump to rediculous conclusions.

AHVB

04-02-2006, 11:21 AM

Yeah I was done, then the thread got resurrected and I'll admit I couldn't resist. I'm honestly not sure why I should care what you guys think happened. I baffles me that such a huge lie was told to the country and people just nod and move on.

And to answer your question, no.

It's physically impossible for an air fueled fire to melt structural steel. And even if it was, where did the fire come from?

-Bean I

Explosives. Dude are you with me on this or are you arguing against me. I can't even tell.

AHVB

04-02-2006, 11:25 AM

even if it turned out all the theories were proven wrong, it was still way entertaining.

Proven wrong? When?

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 11:26 AM

Explosives. Dude are you with me on this or are you arguing against me. I can't even tell.

More tin foil hat type stuff. I swear some of you guys fall for everything.

Explosives do not melt steel, no more so then jet fuel does.

The "molten metal" was not really steel, it was magnisum which melts at an extremely low temperature. The issue with steel (much later) was due to the pressure created which is enough to make steel melt. Some crack pots just took a couple pictures and said "molten steel look it's a conpsiracy" and all of those with an IQ of six bought into it.

If you want to see a conpiracy you will in everything.

AHVB

04-02-2006, 11:32 AM

More tin foil hat type stuff. I swear some of you guys fall for everything.

Explosives do not melt steel, no more so then jet fuel does.

The "molten metal" was not really steel, it was magnisum which melts at an extremely low temperature. The issue with steel (much later) was due to the pressure created which is enough to make steel melt. Some crack pots just took a couple pictures and said "molten steel look it's a conpsiracy" and all of those with an IQ of six bought into it.

If you want to see a conpiracy you will in everything.

If you know for a fact that there isnt a conspiracy then you can check out:

http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm

And win yourself a million dollars.

Thank You :).

Moving along, crackpots took pictures? No. The pictures of molten steel were taken by the USGS Spectroscopy Lab. And they were satellite pictures. Explosives do not melt steel? Are you to tell me that thermite does not melt steel? If not then i suggest you do your research.

angryliberal

04-02-2006, 12:08 PM

AHVB

04-02-2006, 12:16 PM

blah...that contest is bs. no one can win it as no one can provide absolute proof of anything. they cannot prove their point to the measure at which they ask it to be disproved, so its all just a bunch of bs. i don't care what happened anymore. the events of 9/11 have not changed my mind about the government, whether they did it or not. my hate for governments is as strong to day as it was 10 years ago, this is all just a bunch of people running in circles, trying to be right. like i said before, the only good to come of this will be some more insight into the events of 9/11...

Those things can be proved, there is a report on why the towers collapsed. All they're asking simply is to prove that the official version is true.

Also take a look at this vid:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xs51xKHUnNs&search=9/11%20911%209-11%20september%2011%209/11/01%20stephen%20jones%20david%20ray%20griffin%20jef f%20king%20revisited%20911revisited%20tribute%20wt c%20wtc7

Also must I remind you that in the 9/11 COmmision report, they clearly stated that WTC was hollow. COmpletely ignoring the fact that there were 47 HUGE steel support collums supporting the building.

Zachman

04-02-2006, 12:21 PM

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 12:29 PM

If you know for a fact that there isnt a conspiracy then you can check out:

http://reopen911.org/Contest.htm

And win yourself a million dollars.

You win the gullible and stupid award of the decade.

You can always argue and disprove something, thus those contests are complete BS. Just as much as the ones that offer cash to prove the GOV had anything to do with it. They create them to argue and thus encourage idiots to buy into their view point.

I can't believe your stupid enough to buy into that, let alone think it's worth a point in an arguement.

You're obviously very easily manipulated.

AHVB

04-02-2006, 12:37 PM

You win the gullible and stupid award of the decade.

You can always argue and disprove something, thus those contests are complete BS. Just as much as the ones that offer cash to prove the GOV had anything to do with it. They create them to argue and thus encourage idiots to buy into their view point.

I can't believe your stupid enough to buy into that, let alone think it's worth a point in an arguement.

You're obviously very easily manipulated.

Nope. Care to adress my points please?

L1qu1d

04-02-2006, 12:47 PM

word AHVB thanks for the link disprooving that loose change bullshit, lookin for that to son some idiots, my boy saw the fucking plane hit the building...some kids will beleive anything they read on the internet, props to shirlock

Mixah

04-02-2006, 01:05 PM

i still think bush was behind it...

Zachman

04-02-2006, 01:14 PM

i still think bush was behind it...

Bush hatred is posion for the mind.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 01:20 PM

Bush is posion for the mind.

fixed

i'd get into it more, but i wont. i hate bush for a lot of reasons, other than just the war. social security, national privacy, the patriot act, no child left behind, pro-life ideals, capitalism... those last two go along with standard conservative ideals anyways... i don't like that his dad did a somewhat ok job, and he's using this presidency to basically kick his dad's plans in the face... his lack of grammatical skills... THIS quote..

"this job would be a hell of a lot easier if it were a dictatorship, so long as i'm the dictator"

there's a bunch of stuff...

i just get this feeling (and obviously i have no proof, or i'd be making headlines), that he was behind it. loose change or no loose change... i've been saying it since i'm 16 when it first happened and i was sitting in chemistry class, far right side of the classroom, second seat in, next to tristina, in front of greg, and behind kim... yeah, i don't even rememebr what they look like, but i know their names... i was upset that the school wouldn't let me go home... i went to school in PA, but my parents were both at work in NY... my step dad worked across the street from the WTC... he was a cop... he retired after that... he's still alive. they woudln't even let me call home... the secretary said, "don't worry, everything's in the president's hands. he can handle it"... ever since then, i've had a hatred towards the guy... even though both my parents and both my step parents are conservatives... my mom's moving more and more liberal the more she talks to me though..

Zachman

04-02-2006, 01:58 PM

fixed

i'd get into it more, but i wont. i hate bush for a lot of reasons, other than just the war. social security, national privacy, the patriot act, no child left behind, pro-life ideals, capitalism... those last two go along with standard conservative ideals anyways... i don't like that his dad did a somewhat ok job, and he's using this presidency to basically kick his dad's plans in the face... his lack of grammatical skills... THIS quote..

Capitalism? That's what this country was/is built on and it's one of the reasons why we're a superpower. I'm pro-life and I don't follow conservative or liberal philosphies. I believe abortion is wrong and I consider it immoral.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 01:59 PM

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 02:02 PM

He wasn't behind it.

Most of that comes from the fact that way back in the day (under regan) a bunch of neocons decided that America should change the world and the only day to do that was through invasion of the middle east. They also reached the conclusion that we were strong enough to invade if we wanted and nobody could do jack shit about it, the problem was getting the public behind it.

It's been shown that Americans are very violent by nature, but slow to anger. Thus the only way to get public backing of such a massive war would to have a full out attack on America, at which point even the most liberal pacifist would rally behind the government and support an attack.

Note this was not thought up by the military, but by a bunch of very smart and powerfull men in an effort to build the American empire.

It's interesting to note that none of these men were behind 9/11 (most were dead before it) however they did hatch a "plan" should we get the chance to use it.

It's not a case of Bush being behind it, as much as it's a case of "if x happens do y" being laid down into our plans decades ago, hell even Clinton knew about the plans, both parties are behind it.

i don't like that his dad did a somewhat ok job, and he's using this presidency to basically kick his dad's plans in the face.

This is the huge issue in the party right now. His father was a national hero. WW2 veteran, head of the CIA, and a self made man. Bush senior was a great man, even if at times an ineffective leader (only in his presidency he kicked ass at everything else). His son is a slack jawed looser and the only reason he has anything in life is because of his father.

It's truly horrid that he is destroying all the good his father did, and it's the current big rift in the republican party.

and yes, i'm against capitalism because it brings out human greed more than it needs to be.

Humans are greedy bastards by nature. Look at Africa, they don't have capitalism and are the most screwed up continent on the place of the earth. Or look at any of the communist nations and how bad that failed.

Capitalism has problems yes, but it's far from the worst solution out today.

Zachman

04-02-2006, 02:03 PM

ok... what does that have to do with anything?

and yes, i'm against capitalism because it brings out human greed more than it needs to be.

i'm pro choice. it's notbody's business what i do, and it's none of my business what anybody else does

You called capitalism a conservative ideal which I disagreed with. Capitalism is an american ideal and even the liberals of the past were supportive of it.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 02:08 PM

what do the liberals of the past have to do with anything? if we're talking about the liberals of WWII time, then that's not the same liberal ideals that i'm alongside with today. what does the past ideologies have to do with the way they are now?

i agree almost entirely with silentdeath.

except this

Look at Africa, they don't have capitalism and are the most screwed up continent on the place of the earth. Or look at any of the communist nations and how bad that failed.

also, despite what i said in the previous statement... look at countries before moeny was a major issue... look pre-rennaisance... it's a lot different with less focus on capitalism, and more on the progression of humanity

communism fails because people are lazy greedy assholes by nature. if we didn't mind working, and enjoyed it actually, communism would work. as any sane person can say, communism is nice on paper, but it doesn't work.

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 02:09 PM

current liberals are also for capitalism, you should check your facts.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 02:13 PM

i guess it's more about me phrasing it properly.

i'm not for big business... that's more of a conservative idea... corporations... yeah... that's about right

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 02:20 PM

it's not really conservative, how many millionare democrats are there?

Everybody at the top of the political food chain has big money.

The difference is how they bullshit you. The dems are not for the worker, that would cost them money. But they milk it to gain votes.

The republicans are not for small buisness, but they milk it to gain votes.

The difference is which bullshit you eat.

Zachman

04-02-2006, 02:21 PM

The liberals of the past were more sane and they used to be more in tune with the american people.

angryliberal

04-02-2006, 02:47 PM

ok, several responses:

ahvb - i'm not a structural engineer, i'm not a emmber of the 9/11 commission and i'm not a person who really cares. you are also not a memebr of the comission, nor an engineer, nor a person who has actually surveyed the wreckage yourself. so we can both agree that we are following the words of other people, thus we have no real position of our own on the matter. now, me, i'm a person who tends to focus on that which truly matters. i am a pacifist, so i'm against war overall. i am an 'anarchist'(i'll explain below) so i'm against governments overall and i'm an obvious liberal, so i am against this administration. i know 1 thing, lots of people died on 9/11 and the fault, in my mind, has always been global politics, regardless of who planned an enacted it. i do believe, however, that bush is way too stupid to pull anything like this off. the amount of time to actually plan the event from his first day in office and to coverup those plans accross the board is nigh impossible. maybe he turned his back on evidence that an attack was imenent, i'll believe that, but i need a whole lot more proof that this administration has the ability to pull something like that off in complete secrecy for this long. especially with the dems on a wictch hunt and the supposed 'liberal bias' of the mass media.

as to my 'anarchism' as one person pointed out, anarchy is a political ideal, and anyone who has spent anytime reading any of my rants knows i don't align myself with a political ideal. i do have a political leaning as most my beliefs can be easily summed up as 'liberal'. i'm a pacifist, i'm against the greed of capitalism as well as the totalitarianism of most modern communist ideals. i expet people to have different ideals and for others to openly accept those ideals. i live by basic codes such as 'do unto others'. i don't believe in nation states, nor the overwhelming control of government. 'governments' should not be positions of power, but instead the people, providing for the people. not enforcing ideals or suggesting the ideals of the lowest common denominator, but instead providing the needs of its citizens in the form of law enforcement(and i tread on this lightly, i'll explain below my idea if law), medicine and education. it should not be a job that people seek for fame or to push their ideal, but they seek for the betterment of mankind as a whole.

law, to me, should simply be the ensurance that one can live their life freely without fear. all things legal as long as they do not infringe on anothers ability to live their life freely. social issues like abortion and homosexuality should never be decided by the government. like i said, the government should only provide, not mandate. yes, most these are idealistic ways of thinking, but only through one man's idealism can anything change. we may never see these ideas come to fruitation, but it doesn't change my mind about them. i work to help educate people and trade ideas openly in an effort to better understand the human condition. it is possible for people to live together and accept other ideas and philosophies, but it usually takes more work and abandonment of pride than most humans have the capacity for.

AHVB

04-02-2006, 03:34 PM

He wasn't behind it.

Most of that comes from the fact that way back in the day (under regan) a bunch of neocons decided that America should change the world and the only day to do that was through invasion of the middle east. They also reached the conclusion that we were strong enough to invade if we wanted and nobody could do jack shit about it, the problem was getting the public behind it.

It's been shown that Americans are very violent by nature, but slow to anger. Thus the only way to get public backing of such a massive war would to have a full out attack on America, at which point even the most liberal pacifist would rally behind the government and support an attack.

Note this was not thought up by the military, but by a bunch of very smart and powerfull men in an effort to build the American empire.

It's interesting to note that none of these men were behind 9/11 (most were dead before it) however they did hatch a "plan" should we get the chance to use it.

It's not a case of Bush being behind it, as much as it's a case of "if x happens do y" being laid down into our plans decades ago, hell even Clinton knew about the plans, both parties are behind it.

If you and I are on the same page. You're reffering to "The Project For A New American Century" (PNAC). For those interested in reading the document which he's probably reffering to check out this report from PNAC. It's called "Rebuilding America's Defenses. Care of Paul Wolfowitz and the rest of the "crazies". To elaborate, this report was released in the late 90's.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

GGL-steve

04-02-2006, 03:48 PM

I'm aware of that report, I was talking about the ideas and people who started on it WAY before that time. This isn't some new idea, parts of it's structure date back to WW2.

What you are talking about was a related, though different set of ideals put foward later on. It merely builds on what was there before.

The original reports were created because of pearl harbor, and the response we got after that. Thus we began to think what we could do if another attack happened... and it didn't, untill 9/11. Wolfowitz just took the basic frame structure and ran with it, BTW the man is an asshole in person.

archetype

04-02-2006, 03:50 PM

God damn. This truth and lies of 9/11 is amazing. LOL @ the guy saying the CIA is selling drugs. 6 out of 7 of the CIA directors were wall street suits lolol. LOL @ USA.

AHVB: Do you have any more videos like that one. Like they aren't filled with crazy shit like no plane hit the buildings or w/e. Th

AHVB

04-02-2006, 04:03 PM

Interesting article on 9/11 by the new yorker magazine:

http://newyorkmetro.com/news/features/16464/index.html

Very Long Read.

Mixah

04-02-2006, 04:52 PM

ahvb - good shit

LBt1st

04-02-2006, 10:19 PM

Explosives. Dude are you with me on this or are you arguing against me. I can't even tell.

I'm absolutely with you. I'm simply challenging someone to give me a reason why Building 7 imploded that doesn't imply a controlled demolition.

Oh and while I'm making challenges:
Someone explain what caused the explosion(s) in the lobbies of the two towers when the plains hit and before the buildings fell.

Explosives do not melt steel, no more so then jet fuel does.

The "molten metal" was not really steel, it was magnisum which melts at an extremely low temperature. The issue with steel (much later) was due to the pressure created which is enough to make steel melt.

Wahaha! Explosives can't melt steel! That's a good one!

First of all, there was no jet fuel anywhere near Building 7.
Secondly, there's video showing molten steel being pulled out of ground zero. Before the towers even fell, there was molten steel pouring out of the side of the building. There is video of this as well. Do not argue there was no molten steel, it's been known for years.

That said. An open air fire can not melt steel. It is impossible. Steel needs over 1500 Degree's C to melt. An open air fire maxes out around 825C.

-Bean

AHVB

04-03-2006, 07:39 PM

Former Head Of Star Wars Program Says Cheney Main 9/11 Suspect.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/040406mainsuspect.htm

The former head of the Star Wars missile defense program under Presidents Ford and Carter has gone public to say that the official version of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory and his main suspect for the architect of the attack is Vice President Dick Cheney.

Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret. flew 101 combat missions in Vietnam. He is the recipient of the Eisenhower Medal, the George F. Kennan Peace Prize, the President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace, the Society of Military Engineers Gold Medal (twice), six Air Medals, and dozens of other awards and honors. His Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech. He chaired 8 major international conferences, and is one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security.

Bowman worked secretly for the US government on the Star Wars project and was the first to coin the very term in a 1977 secret memo. After Bowman realized that the program was only ever intended to be used as an aggressive and not defensive tool, as part of a plan to initiate a nuclear war with the Soviets, he left the program and campaigned against it.

In an interview with The Alex Jones Show aired nationally on the GCN Radio Network, Bowman (pictured below) stated that at the bare minimum if Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda were involved in 9/11 then the government stood down and allowed the attacks to happen. He said it is plausible that the entire chain of military command were unaware of what was taking place and were used as tools by the people pulling the strings behind the attack.

Bowman outlined how the drills on the morning of 9/11 that simulated planes crashing into buildings on the east coast were used as a cover to dupe unwitting air defense personnel into not responding quickly enough to stop the attack.

"The exercises that went on that morning simulating the exact kind of thing that was happening so confused the people in the FAA and NORAD....that they didn't they didn't know what was real and what was part of the exercise," said Bowman

"I think the people who planned and carried out those exercises, they're the ones that should be the object of investigation."

Asked if he could name a prime suspect who was the likely architect behind the attacks, Bowman stated, "If I had to narrow it down to one person....I think my prime suspect would be Dick Cheney."

Bowman said that privately his military fighter pilot peers and colleagues did not disagree with his sentiments about the real story behind 9/11.

Bowman agreed that the US was in danger of slipping into a dictatorship and stated, "I think there's been nothing closer to fascism than what we've seen lately from this government."

Bowman slammed the Patriot Act as having, "Done more to destroy the rights of Americans than all of our enemies combined."

Bowman trashed the 9/11 Commission as a politically motivated cover-up with abounding conflicts of interest, charging, "The 9/11 Commission omitted anything that might be the least bit suspicious or embarrassing or in any way detract from the official conspiracy so it was a total whitewash."

"There needs to be a true investigation, not the kind of sham investigations we have had with the 9/11 omission and all the rest of that junk," said Bowman.

Asked if the perpetrators of 9/11 were preparing to stage another false-flag attack to reinvigorate their agenda Bowman agreed that, "I can see that and I hope they can't pull it off, I hope they are prevented from pulling it off but I know darn good and well they'd like to have another one."

A mainstay of the attack pieces against Charlie Sheen have been that he is not credible enough to speak on the topic of 9/11. These charges are ridiculed by the fact that Sheen is an expert on 9/11 who spends hours a day meticulously researching the topic, something that the attack dogs have failed to do, aiming their comments solely at Sheen's personal life and ignoring his invitation to challenge him on the facts.

In addition, from the very start we have put forth eminently credible individuals only for them to be ignored by the establishment media. Physics Professors, former White House advisors and CIA analysts, the father of Reaganomics, German Defense Ministers and Bush's former Secretary of the Treasury, have all gone public on 9/11 but have been uniformly ignored by the majority of the establishment press.

Will Robert Bowman also be blackballed as the mainstream continue to misrepresent the 9/11 truth movement as an occupation of the fringe minority?

Bowman is currently running for Congress in Florida's 15th District.

Or is he another crazy conspiracy nutbag?

angryliberal

04-03-2006, 07:50 PM

no, just a nutbag...c'mon, star wars?!?

LBt1st

04-03-2006, 08:00 PM

These charges are ridiculed by the fact that Sheen is an expert on 9/11 who spends hours a day meticulously researching the topic, something that the attack dogs have failed to do, aiming their comments solely at Sheen's personal life and ignoring his invitation to challenge him on the facts.

Physics Professors, former White House advisors and CIA analysts, the father of Reaganomics, German Defense Ministers and Bush's former Secretary of the Treasury, have all gone public on 9/11 but have been uniformly ignored by the majority
QFT

-Bean I

AHVB

04-03-2006, 08:03 PM

no, just a nutbag...c'mon, star wars?!?

How does that discredit him? The star wars program was recently ressurected by bush.

angryliberal

04-03-2006, 08:15 PM

How does that discredit him? The star wars program was recently ressurected by bush.
and that doesn't discredit it?!?

AHVB

04-03-2006, 08:27 PM

and that doesn't discredit it?!?

Nope.

AHVB

04-04-2006, 07:58 AM

Ed Asner, From the Boondocks Says Govt 911 Story A Fable And Fraud
(He plays the rich white guy, Ed Wuncler)
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/asner_says_gov_911_story_fable_fraud.htm

Ed Asner Says Govt 911 Story A Fable And Fraud
Highlights story of hijackers still alive and well

Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones/Prison Planet.com | March 31 2006

Award winning director, producer and actor Ed Asner is the latest high profile public figure to voice his support for Charlie Sheen's stance on 9/11 and share his own concerns about 9/11, the war in Iraq and the Neo-Cons.

Speaking to The Alex Jones Show Asner, best known for his Emmy-winning role as Lou Grant on The Mary Tyler Moore Show, echoed Charlie Sheen's sentiments in stating, "I became suspicious of 9/11 on the day it happened."

"I will always be that suspect of it and challenge it and challenge various points of it," said Asner.

Asner agreed that the official story of 9/11 and the Kean Commission investigation was a fable and a fraud.

"I do not buy it and I would challenge it, I know all of these points....the standing down," said Asner.

Asner questioned why no authority figures had been fired for their inability to prevent 9/11.

"Nobody in high office has ever paid the penalty for keeping us unprepared for 9/11, no one has paid the price and I cite the fact that Abu Ghraib was another typical example of the way this government works," said Asner.

"It's very easy to think of 9/11 to think of being yet another cause of being able to generate war in this country, " said Asner as he compared 9/11 to past examples of manufactured provocations such as the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the attack on the Maine and Pearl Harbor.

"Many of the purported hijackers are living persons elsewhere," said Asner highlighting a story reported by BBC and others that several of the so-called perpetrators of 9/11 visited their embassies in protest that they had been identified as terrorists.

Asked who gained from 9/11 Asner answered, "Certainly the military has, Halliburton, Brown and Root, Mr. Cheney's old outfit....the oil companies of course now with record highs, and the White House is of course involved with oil and the military and always has been."

Asner doubted that another terror attack needed to be staged in order to accomplish more of the same agenda.

"They don't have to have another attack, if they indeed launched the first one they have screwed up our country so badly they could just let us sink in upon ourselves."

Asner questioned why CNN chose to cancel his scheduled spot on Showbiz Tonight. After speaking to inside sources within CNN we were able to confirm that the order came down from a higher office to "kill" the story, despite the fact that the issue had generated the most interest Showbiz Tonight had ever encountered.

Asner is a true humanitarian and is an activist in the fields of missing US PoW's, depleted uranium, which Asner suggested was a deliberate population reduction method, and the fight to get the FDA to eliminate deadly thimerosal mercury additives to vaccines.

His public stance on 9/11 and his support of Charlie Sheen helps in the ongoing effort to encourage public figures with large media platforms to step forward and become prominent voices for the 9/11 truth movement.

Oh NOEZ, ANOTHER NUT!!!

angryliberal

04-04-2006, 08:21 AM

Nope.
star wars is yet another in the many military 'illusion of safety' products that will never come to fruitation, but will suck up millions in tax dollars and make many private military contractors very rich at the expense of the maerican people. its an insane notion that will never work and you are one of the many nuts i talk about if you think these are the problems we need to deal with. we need real solutions for the issues with our country right now like education and health care - not this tin foil hat bs that does nothing more than redirect attention to useless issues instead of having the american people focus on fixing its domestic issues. look over here, we have a war, pay no attention to the degredation of the american domestic staus. you talk about how insane theories redirect attention away form the 'real' issues, how about the REAL issues in this country?!? you are so concerned with whether or not bush had anything to do with 9/11, that you've obsessed yourself with an issue that will never result in the betterment of american life while i try my hardest to focus on that which will truly make us a great nation again.

suleman

04-04-2006, 08:43 AM

The war on terror is your "illusion of safety".

angryliberal

04-04-2006, 08:45 AM

to quote david cross - you can't have a war on terrorism, its like having a war on jealousy, you'll never win. at no point will we ever say 'we got em all, everyone loves us now'...

to ahvb - ed asner is a fucking actor, yeah, thats a credible source...

AHVB

04-04-2006, 09:41 PM

star wars is yet another in the many military 'illusion of safety' products that will never come to fruitation, but will suck up millions in tax dollars and make many private military contractors very rich at the expense of the maerican people. its an insane notion that will never work and you are one of the many nuts i talk about if you think these are the problems we need to deal with. we need real solutions for the issues with our country right now like education and health care - not this tin foil hat bs that does nothing more than redirect attention to useless issues instead of having the american people focus on fixing its domestic issues. look over here, we have a war, pay no attention to the degredation of the american domestic staus. you talk about how insane theories redirect attention away form the 'real' issues, how about the REAL issues in this country?!? you are so concerned with whether or not bush had anything to do with 9/11, that you've obsessed yourself with an issue that will never result in the betterment of american life while i try my hardest to focus on that which will truly make us a great nation again.

Ahh, man. Just because I make threads about 9/11 does not mean that I'm not concerned about issues regarding poverty, healthcare and what not. You just happen to read what I have to say about these kinds of Issues on the 9/11 threads. I speak about other issues in their respective threads. You're judging my by one type of thread dude, not mature at all. Moving along here are the following issues that I am currently directly involved in in my neighborhood:

Philanthropy towards lower income neighborhoods (shitty description, i'll elaborate another time) and minority led non-profits.

HUD's immoral practices and the solutions to those problems (The people I work with are currently brainstorming to fix these problems).

So like I said, kiss my ass if you believe that I'm some raving lunatic who reads conspiracy theories all day. I'm currently active in this whole thing and am working my ass off trying to help fix certain problems. I'm only one person and judging me by a thread or 2 is absurd.

angryliberal

04-04-2006, 10:08 PM

Ahh, man. Just because I make threads about 9/11 does not mean that I'm not concerned about issues regarding poverty, healthcare and what not. You just happen to read what I have to say about these kinds of Issues on the 9/11 threads. I speak about other issues in their respective threads. You're judging my by one type of thread dude, not mature at all. Moving along here are the following issues that I am currently directly involved in in my neighborhood:

Philanthropy towards lower income neighborhoods (shitty description, i'll elaborate another time) and minority led non-profits.

HUD's immoral practices and the solutions to those problems (The people I work with are currently brainstorming to fix these problems).

So like I said, kiss my ass if you believe that I'm some raving lunatic who reads conspiracy theories all day. I'm currently active in this whole thing and am working my ass off trying to help fix certain problems. I'm only one person and judging me by a thread or 2 is absurd.
thread or two?!? jesus fuck...thats an understatement. in the less than 2 years i've been here all i've read form you is conspircay related material. thats it. its not like i've only read one or two of your threads. i've posted the don quixote reference way more than 2 times. the only non-conspiracy thing i can remember you ever saying is that you do not know who pat buchanan is. and don't get all offended, stop whining like abitch about how i'm judging you. i judge everyone on the same plane - less than me. your threads are just silly and i love baiting you into this 'i work for people who work for the people' rant you have gone at me with at least twice now...i don't care who you work for, your rabid obsession seems to be that of 9/11 conspircay, or more acurately - reposting information you find about 9/11 conspiracy. i wouldn't want to be inaccurate and claim you have any original thought on the 'movement'...

AHVB

04-04-2006, 10:45 PM

thread or two?!? jesus fuck...thats an understatement. in the less than 2 years i've been here all i've read form you is conspircay related material. thats it. its not like i've only read one or two of your threads. i've posted the don quixote reference way more than 2 times. the only non-conspiracy thing i can remember you ever saying is that you do not know who pat buchanan is. and don't get all offended, stop whining like abitch about how i'm judging you. i judge everyone on the same plane - less than me. your threads are just silly and i love baiting you into this 'i work for people who work for the people' rant you have gone at me with at least twice now...i don't care who you work for, your rabid obsession seems to be that of 9/11 conspircay, or more acurately - reposting information you find about 9/11 conspiracy. i wouldn't want to be inaccurate and claim you have any original thought on the 'movement'...

"I work for people who work for people" You have no idea what the hell you're talking about. You're making horribly inacurate refferences to what I do in my day to day life.

You dont care who i work for, you dont care what i'm involved in yet you have the nerve to make these claims about me. I clearly tell you that I am involved in other things that actually affect the lives of people and you tell me that that is is irrelevant because of the fact that I post 9/11 conspiracy related threads? Ridiculous.

I have a rabid obesession with 9/11 conspiracies? Motherfucker I'm 20 years old and I work 3 Jobs and attend school 4 days a week. Don't give me this bullshit about how i'm "rabidly obsessed" with 9/11 when I have lord knows how many other things to worry about.

I could give less of a rat's ass about that excerpt from don quixote.

blood_sin

04-04-2006, 11:20 PM

I could give less of a rat's ass about that excerpt from don quixote.

Yeah, I hate when people come in with stuff like that, and Occam's Razor, like it's an infallible law or something. I couldn't care less about arguments like that.

04-05-2006, 02:10 AM

Speaking of the old razor, here's my philosphy on crazy people: Possible vs Likely.

Is it POSSIBLE that 9/11 was a big conspiracy set up by Bush (to fuck himself in the ass, clearly)- yes. Is it LIKELY...eh...not so much. (I'll remind everyone that secrets don't stay secret forever, and if any of the nonsense about Bush being behind 9/11 is ever proven, he will, at best, be going to jail...you act like there aren't people who want him dead NOW, let alone if anything could really be proven, Bushe's life after office will not be fun). Do keep in mind that if there were no footage of the twin towers goign down, some of these same conspiracy theory sites would be saying that the whole thing enver even happned. They already do it with D.C.

Is it POSSIBLE that the moon doesn't exist, and is just a hologram created by the lizard people? Yes. Is it likely?

YES.

O P E N _ Y O UR _ E Y E S!!! !

BTW, all kinds of people believe crazy shit. Scientology is full of celebrities, some of whom are intelligent...that doesn't make it all true. Colonics are B.S. and do nothing, but hundreds of people get them to "cleanse" their "aura" or some bullshit. I could find you someone you respect who believes that the C.I.A. invented crack cocaine or that Van Helsing was a great movie... the 9/11 stuff is logical fallacy, and appears solid on the surface, so I've n doubt that thousands of people believe it, and things which are even more insane, sincey never bothered to hit up Google for 5 minutes and disprove 60% of it right there. They are mostly plans that don't account for people.

blood_sin

04-05-2006, 02:17 AM

You can't say if it's likely or unlikely without any kinds of reasons. It would make sense for them to orchestrate 9/11 for many reasons, especially to have an excuse for war. So yeah, they did have motive.

04-05-2006, 03:33 AM

Um, if you're talking about the war in Iraq, they would have pinned it on Saddam. And I don't mean some "oh, he knew a guy who knew a guy who let bin Laden's cousin IN HIS HOUSE!!" If you think this whole thing was orchestrated to get into Iraq (where we're not getting our hands on any oil and America hates Bush for having our troops there...btw), It would make much more sense that the conspirators would have made it look like Saddam or an associate had done it. That way, with ties betwen Saddam and his Afghani co-conpirator from the begining, the country is glad when we finally take the last step and enter Iraq.

(And if it were ever proven that Bush/Cheney went into Iraq for personal gain, the best they could hope for is to be stripped of all of their earnings. It would be a much better conspiracy theory that they went in for America's good, so we control that oil, but that's less alarmist.)

#2, you can define what is likely through common sense, in many cases. To have hundreds of people in on a conspiracy...and with the size of a 9/11 conspiracy, hundreds is a good guess...and not have any fuck-ups...not likely. For example: let's say that the two towers went down because of a controlled demolition...let's say one of the bombs goes off early, or not at all...so the bottom 10 floors explode, but the top ones are fine. Suspicious, no? Not to mention...that amount of explosives would be impossible to conceal (because of smell, not to mention space). So...how exactly would yo pull that off with nobdoy pointing it out? What if there were hundreds of pounds of explosives left in the rubble...you think that will forever be kept secret?

Is it possible that you could supress international news media, and that everyone involed would keep all of their secrets (I think it was Benjamin Franklin who said "three people may keep a secret, if two are dead"), so only the paranoid t and gullible belive in conspiracy theories? And that those people, in the end, would be right? Yes, it's possible. Is it likely....I don't think it is.

If you were a mossad agent and secretly destroying American buildings, and causing thousands of civilian casualties...in the biggest city on earth, no less...would YOU make an ass out of yourself as the conspiracy theorists contend that the agents were doing? Or, if you were at all involved, woul you not STFU and law low for a few months, and then leave the country.

Like I said...conspiracy theories talk of events, but not of people. When you consider what actual people would do in these situations, it's much less plausible. Everyone is just dumb enough to make slip-ups which could, hypothetically point to some other scenario, but with no hard evidence. Funny how that works out. Must I point out the billions and billions of things that the U.S. government can't keep secret...Abu Grahib? Iran Contra? All of the Latin America crap? The fucking Manhattan Project? Clinton (choose one). Nixon? Kennedy banging out Marylin Monroe?

You have to consider that the government is not "The Government," some nebulous organization of shady individuals. The government is comprised of human beings (and possibly a few lizard people from the planet N-Uranus, depending on which conspiracy theory sites you keep up with). People carry grudges against other people, people would be glad to sell someone out if they slip up, people who are honestly motivated by conscience, people willing to die to get the truth out. Any theory which has "The Government" working in concert with it