The REAL United 93 Thread

[P. Gorath]

*Mods, please delete any comment ahvb attempts to make in this thread


Saw the movie today and it was quite an experience. I highly recommend that people see this. I definitely had a little :sad: going at a couple points. This was really a masterfully done film and Paul Greengrass had to thread the needle very tightly to make it all work - and he did.

I was concerned going into the film that it would try to tell us/show us things happening in washington or in the military or FAA that did not happen to our knowledge ie paint a rosy picture of competance with those supposed to be in control. I believe that the film did a good job of navigating these waters and I dont see how partisans from either side could accuse the film of bias either way.

I think that even conspiracy theorists would have a hard time finding fault with this film, except for those totally off the deep end (who will never recognize any truth but their whim).

The performances were great, all unknown or little-known actors. As david denby wrote, if it had been Denzel in the plane and gene hackman in the cockpit it would have made for a much different (crass) movie.

If you are a muslim I'm not sure what to tell you, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the film though.

So go see the film if you think you can handle it, and if you download current release movies you fail at life.

[Kalypso]

Why censor AHVB? He seems to know quite abit about conspiracy theories.

[Bob the Bastard]

Why see a movie where you already know the ending?

Let's see..

#1. Some pussies get herded into the back of a plane by pussies with knives.

#2. Pussies w/o knives finally grow a pair.

#3. Some asshat crashes the plane fucking everybody over.

[P. Gorath]

wow, you sure showed us who's cool.

[AHVB]

Why delete? I just said that the movie sucked. Jesus.

And yes I downloaded this bullshit.

Holla back at me when you can explain the 8 mile long debris field.

And conspiracy theories aside, as a standalone movie, it was shit.

If people think that I should keep my mouth shut because it may offend the people who leave the theatre feeling "patriotic" after watching this shit, and you feel that it's a disrespect to ANYONE that i criticize this crap then you have another thing coming.

[Lucretz]

United 93. This is meant to be a tribute to the dead passengers correct?

.. but was it really? I mean .. did the producers, director and financers get together and all say, "Hey guys, let's make a tribute to those dead folks. And if we happen to make a few million dollars on ticket and DVD sales, then that's cool too." If they give all that money, and I mean all of it, to the families of the people who died then it's fine. But I have a strange feeling that that isn't gonna happen.

Also, I think having a film like this out makes closure a little harder for those familes IE w/ making a move about a disaster like the Titanic, anyone involved was already long dead. With 9-11, families are still alive. And again, I doubt they asked any of those families before they went into pre-production on their high-flying tribute to those dead sons of bitches. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a bunch of people all over the country I don't know, going to see a recreation of one of my family members deaths.

And does anyone even know for sure what actually happened aboard the plane? As far as I knew, there was one cell phone call made from aboard the flight and that was it. So they reconstructed all these events from that? That's not a lot to go on, meaning the majority of the movie was just written to make a compelling script and not really retelling what happened. Since the only people that would really know, died on the plane.

All in all, it just seems like opportunistic bullshit to capitilize on people's willingess in indulge in this sort of shit. To quote a wise man, upon first hearing of the movie's production, "I predict it will be massively gay, and end with an American flag."

Also: I agree w/ AHVB's last paragraph. Critics have just as much right to express their disapproval of the movie, as everyone who'll praise it as a patriotic tribute do.

[P. Gorath]

ahvb -

a) I dont believe you.

b) what aspect of the film do you feel falsely portrayed what you believe actually occured?

the reason people think you should keep your mouth shout is because you are ignorant and proud of it and your comments add nothing to the dialogue. Your own words betray you as if you had actually seen the film you wouldn't be blabbering about the uneducated masses leaving the theater feeling patriotic. shmuck.


United 93. This is meant to be a tribute to the dead passengers correct?no, it's supposed to be a feature film.

.. but was it really? I mean .. did the producers, director and financers get together and all say, "Hey guys, let's make a tribute to those dead folks. And if we happen to make a few million dollars on ticket and DVD sales, then that's cool too." If they give all that money, and I mean all of it, to the families of the people who died then it's fine. But I have a strange feeling that that isn't gonna happen.Movies are made to make money. Let us know when you want to grace us with another astonishing revelation.

Also, I think having a film like this out makes closure a little harder for those familes IE w/ making a move about a disaster like the Titanic, anyone involved was already long dead. With 9-11, families are still alive. And again, I doubt they asked any of those families before they went into pre-production on their high-flying tribute to those dead sons of bitches. I'm not sure how I'd feel about a bunch of people all over the country I don't know, going to see a recreation of one of my family members deaths.And if you actually knew anything instead of mindlessly pontificating from the mush atop your shoulders you would know that the victims families were involved in the film on many levels and throughout the process. You could even read their reactions after the tribeca screening this past week.

And does anyone even know for sure what actually happened aboard the plane? As far as I knew, there was one cell phone call made from aboard the flight and that was it. So they reconstructed all these events from that? That's not a lot to go on, meaning the majority of the movie was just written to make a compelling script and not really retelling what happened. Since the only people that would really know, died on the plane.
See above. Your argument would be taken a lot more seriously if you actually used some kind of facts in them somewhere. There were many calls from the flight, and other perspectives were also used to paint the (obviously) incomplete picture. Teh internets is your friend.
All in all, it just seems like opportunistic bullshit to capitilize on people's willingess in indulge in this sort of shit. To quote a wise man, upon first hearing of the movie's production, "I predict it will be massively gay, and end with an American flag." If this is your idea of a wise man than it may explain the stream of excrement you let loose in this thread.

Also: I agree w/ AHVB's last paragraph. Critics have just as much right to express their disapproval of the movie, as everyone who'll praise it as a patriotic tribute do.critics who see the movie, yes. That obviously excludes both of you.

[CgHuReInS]

I thought this movie did a great job of not trying to preach a message or lay blame for any of the events. It just tried its best to show us what that day was like for everyone involved. The families of all the passengers were consulted on making the film, and a lot of the ground control crew played themselves in the movie.

I thought it was really powerful. Greengrass did an outstanding job in not exploiting the event in any way.

[Sharktongue]

that plane was shot down by fighter jets from a nearby air force base.

[Orochi Jeebus]

This film is an insane display of disinformation. i'd love to see a complete list of who provided funding for it.

[KingRaoh]

anything that makes it to the movies (or basically any screen or mainstream publication) has already been approved by the censors to make sure it supports the desired "storyline" (i.e., bullshit) to keep you stupid and looking the other way while our country is raped by those who we believe have our best interests in mind. 3 cheers for ignorance! afterall it IS bliss.

edit: but hey, we are FREE to believe anything we want right. we can CHOOSE to be brainwashed and spoonfed. besides thinking for yourself means challenging the status quo and that means ridicule from the masses. best to lay down and roll over to Big Brother no?

[thurst]

the whole concept of this movie is cheesy as fuck

[Okame]

anything that makes it to the movies (or basically any screen or mainstream publication) has already been approved by the censors to make sure it supports the desired "storyline" (i.e., bullshit) to keep you stupid and looking the other way while our country is raped by those who we believe have our best interests in mind. 3 cheers for ignorance! afterall it IS bliss.

edit: but hey, we are FREE to believe anything we want right. we can CHOOSE to be brainwashed and spoonfed. besides thinking for yourself means challenging the status quo and that means ridicule from the masses. best to lay down and roll over to Big Brother no?
This film is an insane display of disinformation. i'd love to see a complete list of who provided funding for it.that plane was shot down by fighter jets from a nearby air force base.
Holla back at me when you can explain the 8 mile long debris field.

:looney:

[TheIlluminati]

Who's reaping the profits from this film?

...that's what I thought.

[Kalypso]

So P. Gorath thinks lack of proof, personal insults and personal opinions prove his point, which isn't even a point it's just his opinion of a movie. What?

Since when does your opinion mean more than AHVB's?

[P. Gorath]

So P. Gorath thinks lack of proof,
Lack of proof in what, that lucretz didnt know wtf he was talking about in regard to participation by victims families and other real-world people? Yeah, I would say direct contradictory evidence IS pretty compelling.
personal insults and personal opinions prove his point, which isn't even a point it's just his opinion of a movie. What?
When you say something fucking stupid that has no basis in fact then you are going to be called on it.
Since when does your opinion mean more than AHVB's?
I don't know, ask around if you want to know the consensus of the weight of my opinion vs. that of ahvb's in general, but in this particular case my opinion means more because it is informed on having actually seen the film and brought examples into the thread, where ahvb has yet to offer even a shred of opinion or thought that would lead someone to believe it was formed by having seen the movie.

[KingRaoh]

:looney:


you got that right! :looney: x 2 (goes back to wearing tin-foil hat, which works! goddammit!)

[J-ride]

I saw a preview for the movie, and that preview made me so angry that I refuse to see this movie, or help this movie in any way whatsoever. So they have this heartfelt music on and then they have the victims of 93's families on, and they are just telling you how sad this all is and how hard their lives are and bla bla bla. Then it shows clips from the movie, then at the end they tell us we can go to some site and give money to the victims' families. Yeah, thanks Hollywood. Now if they donated a big portion of movie sales to the fund, like lets say 10% or so, then I would go see it.

Edit: Also, I feel it is WAY to early to make this movie, and if they would have waited a few more years, then I'd probably be more willing to see it.

[The Damned]

Now if they donated a big portion of movie sales to the fund, like lets say 10% or so, then I would go see it.

Ah, the irony. You apparently don't realize that they are supposedly giving 10% of the revenue to the families.

As for the film, I agree with thrustotherapy more than any other posts, though that's probably because every other post is debatably assinine besides the starting post; there is another certain irony, however, in the fact that the "real" thread for the movie has more conspiracy theorists posting in it than it has "patriots".

I won't go see the film. Not because I believe it's propaganda--well, at least that's not the major reason since I'm not entirely sure where I stand on the "events were a government conspiracy" issue.

It's mostly because of the high probability that this "neutral" take on events are still at worst emotionally manipulative like that tripe I Am Sam and at best emotionally charged only for those people that give a damn about the event already. I know it will sound characteristically callous, but the events of September 11th, 2001 didn't mean much to me besides getting out of school early. The aftermath, sure, since that's affected everyone's lives, but it's not like I knew anyone that died on that day.

Thus, I think that the film would likely be a waste of time for most people who don't need some type of "closure" in seeing that their deceased loved ones (by proxy) act heroic until the very end. I don't really want to waste my time in an annoying movie theater with people weeping around me--I've far more productive and equally depressing things to do.

Meh. I didn't really need to type that either, but I guess I just wanted to show that there's more to the camp that's against this movie than "it's financial manipulation" or "it's part of the conspiracy".

Oh well. At least you enjoyed the movie, Gorath.

[GGL-steve]

Hey, nothing is wrong with conspiracy theories, or the people that buy into them.

They give us a great reason to move in the other direction, and completely discredity their own point of view, as well as their social groups worth in modern society.

Hell they keep the people in power strong and around.

If it wasn't for people like AHVB bush wouldn't have had a second term

[J-ride]

Ah, the irony. You apparently don't realize that they are supposedly giving 10% of the revenue to the families.

Of opening weekend, not total sales.

[The Damned]

Of opening weekend, not total sales.

Ah. I stand corrected.

...Damn, and I thought Scrooge was stingy.

[Roxie]

Now if they donated a big portion of movie sales to the fund, like lets say 10% or so, then I would go see it.
:confused:

Tha--that's the sa-same thing I said!:amazed:
Also, the whole idea of this as a movie just makes me highly uncomfortable.

[catchafire]

I can believe this move was some serious bullshit. Congrats, you just gave some idiot your hard earned movie to view this garbage. They profited off you like the fool you are. Come on man, no one knows what happened on the flight so why make a movie to stir peoples emotions?

[Zachman]

I can believe this move was some serious bullshit. Congrats, you just gave some idiot your hard earned movie to view this garbage. They profited off you like the fool you are. Come on man, no one knows what happened on the flight so why make a movie to stir peoples emotions?
You are way too ignorant for your own good.

[Orochi Jeebus]

Hey, nothing is wrong with conspiracy theories, or the people that buy into them.

They give us a great reason to move in the other direction, and completely discredity their own point of view, as well as their social groups worth in modern society.

Hell they keep the people in power strong and around.

If it wasn't for people like AHVB bush wouldn't have had a second term

yeah? & just how does a dissenting voice empower those in charge? surely you must realize that control with no opposition would be preferrable.

[AHVB]

Please explain how bodies were documented to have been found miles from the crash site:

http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp

"Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine."

Please Explain why there was Smoke coming out of the back of the airplane was it descended?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/091201.JPG
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/091201b.JPG

"was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him,"


Please explain the 8 mile long debris field. Challenge me on the facts.

[Pimp Willy]

It's ok, we choose to take our news from people who are on TV, who go to the scene and get the stories, who bring us daily dosages of what are going on around the world with the intent to keep us tuned in and sell commercials.

You get your news from websites who take OTHER PEOPLES news stories, and try to find holes in them, then make up their own explanations, slap them on a webpage, and try to sell hats/books/adspace in the meantime.

Don't ask anybody to challenge you on facts, you don't have any, you only have stuff you've read online and opinions that have been placed into your head by different people than the rest of us.

[AHVB]

You get your news from websites who take OTHER PEOPLES news stories, and try to find holes in them, then make up their own explanations, slap them on a webpage, and try to sell hats/books/adspace in the meantime.


What's the difference between me quoting News articles or anything on TV? I'm clearly quoting mainstream articles. I didn't qoute a 9/11 conspiracy theory website. If i did then I'd love for you to point out where I did that. How is this someone elses "theory"?

[lseelba]

(snip)
So go see the film if you think you can handle it, and if you download current release movies you fail at life.

So wait...we shouldn't download this movie because why? Oh yeah...so the studios can PROFIT on the tragedy that was 9/11. Downloaders are really the bad guys here :looney:

The worst part...the studios are donating 10% of the revenues from the first three days of this movie to the 9/11 foundation. 10% of three days? Really generous there...that's what you call a token display of charity.

[P. Gorath]

So wait...we shouldn't download this movie because why? Oh yeah...so the studios can PROFIT on the tragedy that was 9/11. Downloaders are really the bad guys here :looney:

The worst part...the studios are donating 10% of the revenues from the first three days of this movie to the 9/11 foundation. 10% of three days? Really generous there...that's what you call a token display of charity.
except that the first 3 days of a wide release are the most profitable in a movie's run?

and im still wondering how some of you cant wrap your heads around the fact that we live in a capitalist society where financing is put into film so that sometimes the lucky ones can make a profit.

[lseelba]

except that the first 3 days of a wide release are the most profitable in a movie's run?

and im still wondering how some of you cant wrap your heads around the fact that we live in a capitalist society where financing is put into film so that sometimes the lucky ones can make a profit.
So um...how exactly do I "fail at life" if I download this instead of lining the studio's pockets?

(By the way, I don't plan to do either because I think the fact that people are going to get rich off this event is disgusting. I'm just reacting to your comment in the first post.)

[Pimp Willy]

What's the difference between me quoting News articles or anything on TV? I'm clearly quoting mainstream articles. I didn't qoute a 9/11 conspiracy theory website. If i did then I'd love for you to point out where I did that. How is this someone elses "theory"?
You are linking images from one. They in turn dig up mainstream articles, and try their best to find holes in them, take a single sentance from them, and then write a whole bunch of nonsense trying to explain how it fits into their view of things.

Your article just states they think they may have found some human remains miles from the impact. It never states they did, who they were, what it was, etc. You just assume it's because a plane was shot down. Link to an article stating that they have definitely found remains miles from impact, in something that was linked to the crash. Then link me to an article explaining airplane crashes, and that explains exactly how far something should land from an airplane explosion. Don't link something that says "There may have been remains found far away" and hold it up like it proves anything.

[FreddyL0c0]

Ill say this right now....United 93 was a good movie. the decision to have an unknow cast was a necessity, and the camera directions, acting and script was perfect in conveying what may or may not have happened. Either way, the people on the plane end up looking like heros, and i wont be surprised if it wins oscars. oh and we can already forget about Stone's World Trade Center, as I have no doubt in mind that it will not be as strong as this film.

There were some odd things such as the "fact" (in the ending) that people outside the plane didnt know it was being hijacked 4 minutes after its crash...and that military air enforcements were 100 miles away.

I know conspiracie theories are exactly that, just suppositions. But is it really so hard to suppose that the military wouldnt endanger the white house and just shoot the plane down, and altered the story as to form a sense of inspiration. Isnt it easier to say such a thing to a family and a nation then the "harsh truth". Hence why prob none of u would be able to fathom such an idea in the first place, too hard to swallow and accept.

Oh and mainstream media can be unreliable anyways when its owned by a major corporation, so while its true that AHVB's suspicious internet fact are hardly credible, lets not always believe what CNN and the New york Times tells us.

[RoninChaos]

Pimp Willy, stop now. AHVB has been like this for years. Don't waste your time. Half the board has broken him down on this shit. He even got so mad he "quit" and came back a day later. He ain't tryin' to listen. Don't waste your time, seriously. You'll thank me later.

[MalcontentBunny]

Ahhh shit, AHVB. A man after my own heart.

NO ONES KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DAMN PLANE!!!!!

Witnessess state that they witnessed other low flying planes descend on their town the same time as the flight. They also heard an explosion and saw smoke coming from the rear of the plane. Also, most of the wreckage wasn't even there, just tiny pieces of clothes and scrap metal. Check it out on Google Video for the proof.

There were only 2-3 calls made from the plane. They were made with cell phones. BULLSHIT! It's been proven and known as fact for quite some time that you can't make calls from cellphones while on a plane. It's a statistical and physical impossibility. Also, what was said during those phone calls, all of them, was noted by their families as to be completely uncharacteristic of them. In other words, the things they said didn't make any sense to even their families.

I think the people who made this movie, however technically skilled at film-making, are twats. This was a horrible decision on their part. You know they did it for the money, otherwise they would've donated a ton more money (like all of it) to the families. Come on, you know you've got an easy winner when you're making a movie about this sort of thing. If people don't like it, you can call them unpatriotic.

Soooooo... Maybe some of the people on this thread that are bashing people about the facts should learn 'em themselves.

[AHVB]

RC, what do you mean? I take everyones arguments, including what you say into consideration and debate based on the issues that were presented to me. You act as if I ignore what everyone says and just talk out of my ass. Sheesh.

I simply stated that I thought that the movie sucked, All it did was "remind" people of what happened on 9/11 and on top of that created tentions between the people and our middle eastern brothers & sisters. It was made too fucking fast, regardless of wether or not you believe Usama was solely responsible.

With regards to the issue of the debris being found 8 miles away:
Okay fine, here are some more mainstream articles on the matter:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12967.html
Titled (Reprint):Crash debris found 8 miles away

[catchafire]

You are way too ignorant for your own good.

okay, since you are enlightened why don't you tell me what happened?

[angryliberal]

i won't see this movie cuz it doesn't seem like my kind of movie. beyond any of that, i don't care.

somehow i knew ahvb wouldn't be able to help himself and start another debate by quoting other people's words. looky at this great debate style, linking to other articles. man, this guy said it and it must be true. you are just a pawn cuz you listen to the governments story. i'm an individual thinker who can see outside the box cuz i read this french guy's theories. you are all sheep, i'm not. bah...er i mean, fight the good fight...

[Will Gotti]

I saw the movie a couple of days ago. As a movie, I thought it was pretty good, Paul Greengrass is just good IMO. I'm not gonna get all artsy fartsy about why I liked it using film terms and speaking eloquently cause at the moment, I'm not in the mood to do so, maybe later.

Anyways, this argument going on with P. Gorath and AHVB seems trivial with one speaking subjectively and emotionally and the other mixing conspiracy theories with subjectiveness and info found throughout the mass media.

Personally, I've been to ground zero at the Pentagon when I was a reservist working for the 98th Division as a Photojournalist. I was active Army for 4 years and was in the military when 9/11 happened and lived a life of ignorant bliss like many, many other soldiers after the events took place during my last 8 months after the attacks. In the reserves I just so happened to stumble upon any light on the situation working a bit higher in the chain of command as a lower enlisted soldier (Specialist). Everyone around me was high ranking NCO's and officers. I was one of 5 or so lower enlisted soldiers working in division.

During my active time, a lot of soldiers didn't know what was really going on except that we were inevitably going to war. It was all speculating and some speculations sounded well grounded and had some merit, but overall was subjective. Which this argument going on in this thread seems like.

This part pertains to United 93 specifically
Just FYI, I went to the Pentagon in May of 2003. My commanding officer in the Photojournalism department, Major Hansen (0-4 officer), came with me from Rochester, NY to cover the MacArthur Awards that some of our division soldiers were receiving. We stopped by some of his homies offices that were at the exact point where the planes supposedly hit the Pentagon.

All I have to say is people knew stuff that we (rest of the nation) didn't hear about in the news or media, but were massively clandestine (obviously) to talk about anything. I remember Major Hansen talking to his Colonel friend while I was sitting next to him and I have keen hearing. They were talking in broken gibberish, you know the kind of talk where you don't want anyone to hear/understand, but the two of you use only a couple of words/incomplete sentences and both people gets the gist of what the other is saying? Well that's how they were talking trying not to be rude to me in the process.

Anyways, Major Hansen leaned over so the colonel could whisper in his ear and through the soft whisper in the major's ear (which I don't blame him for), I heard "....missle hitting plane..." I heard a bit more, but that quote in the previous sentence pertains to what happened in Pennsylvania. I acted like I didn't hear anything and acted like the jolly, blissful soldier but I heard what they were saying and said I didn't when asked later on by Major Hansen. A lie yes, but if they didn't want me to hear a single sound of what they were saying, they could have easily excused me for a couple of minutes to go "play." So I put two and two together and from what someone (I think AVHB) said earlier about a missle hitting the plane, that sounds pretty correct to me.

[Noraj]

Did you guys pay attention to some of the dialogue? Like when the guy calls his mother, and then proceeds to state his first and last name?

[J-ride]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if 93 was shot down, not because of OMFG CONSPIRACY, but because that is what the Air Force is supposed to do when planes go off course. They get a warning and they get shot down, but the U.S. just never really enforced it because we never really had a problem with Hadj crashing planes into buildings.

Edit: Also, had they shot down the planes that were heading to the twin towers, the media would have talked about how our President sanctioned the murder of innocent civilians, so it really was lose-lose.

[Pimp Willy]

Pimp Willy, stop now. AHVB has been like this for years. Don't waste your time. Half the board has broken him down on this shit. He even got so mad he "quit" and came back a day later. He ain't tryin' to listen. Don't waste your time, seriously. You'll thank me later.
Eh, I know good advice when I hear it. Thanks.