The SF2 Hyper Fighting Thread [Archive]

Crayfish

05-16-2006, 06:38 AM

Here we've trying to consolidate every resource available for those who want to learn and promote Hyper Fighting.

ONLINE PLAY.
Come play SF2 HF online with us.
Simply download the fantastic 'nFBA' netplay emulator here:
http://kaillera.movsq.net/#
While your there, also download the Okai recorder (this allows you to record matches).
*To use the Oaki recorder you also need to have the Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Redistributable Package instaled:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=32bc1bee-a3f9-4c13-9c99-220b62a191ee&displaylang=en
When you connect to an online game check the 'record matches' box:
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/2429/oakicheckboxsz7.jpg
before U check the 'ready' box. When U finish the set, the tiny compressed '.krec' replay files appear in the 'records' folder.

Then connect to the '#srkkaillera' channel on mIRC to meet and arange matches:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=135807
Im on there along with other HF players like 'LeRaldo'. Leave a message with your online handles in the thread & send me the .krec replay files from your best matches. I'll post them on the Hyper Fighting youtube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/Crayfis

#srkkaillera SF2 HF PLAYER HANDLES *(...) denotes SRK handle 'if different':
Brian Feldstein
complexz
Crayfish
dogbery
domino
GODtier (Oski H)
Kenz (TheRealO.GKen)
LeRaldo
madpossum (mad possum)
metro (metrock1)
MGear ( _snake_)
MOJOjojo / SuperGODtier (Decoy)
neR (CaliAgent)

LEARNING RESOURCES.
'Hyper Fighting Dizzy System, Charr guides & strategies'
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KSEOLEW5
Goldmine of SF2-HF expert info, strategies, tactics, combos selected from news groups and forums. Download this before you do anything else...

'Street Fighter 2 Hyper Fighting - Instructional' Youtube playlist:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=47C5A033A9B1E2E9
Contains many video's like Decoy's fantastic, Hyper Fighting Blanka tutorial &
StuBor9s' incredibleZangief combo vids.

R | C - Mastercheng's fantastic hitbox project:
http://www.mastercheng.com/games/sf2t/index.html

MATCHVIDS.
'Street Fighter 2 Hyper Fighting - Great Matches'
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=2D7955714D1177CF
Too much great stuff to mention. Continualy updated.

HISTORICAL & OTHER RESOURCES.
NKI's SF2 resources translated from the T.Akiba supersite:
http://nki.combovideos.com/data.html

The Sunnyvale Golfland article
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/328/hfguidebookp158golflandbn5.jpg
& the Tomo Ohira interview
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1613/hfguidebookp159tomosmlqy5.jpg
both from the GamePro HF Guidebook

The Tomo Ohira thread:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=103126

THE EMULATION SPEED ISSUE.
There has been alot of debate about the running speed of HF under emulation. For those who don't know, HF runs faster than the origonal arcade board under emulation (within Mame & Winkawaks) this is because the speed of the game in HF was linked to the CPU speed of the board (or something like that). I have repeatedly timed the full round 'time out' matches of the tourney vids I'm posting, and the correct emulation using the fantastic old Callus Emulator. I've concluded that a round (going by when the clock starts & finishes) is around:
57 SECONDS
In both Mame and WinKawaks under normal settings a round will last approx
46.5 SECONDS
clearly a significant speed inrease, and 'very' noticable when played side by side. Thankfully there is an emulator (besides the fantastic but defunct 'Callus') that runs the game at the correct speed, 'nFBA'. For more info see ONLINE PLAY section at the top of the page for more info:

OTHER ONLINE PLAY:
XBOX 360 LIVE RESOURCES
Street Fighter II - Hyper Fighting Edition XBox 360 SRK Player Roster:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=117648
SFII Turbo: HF - Good Times Thread:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=117649
Xbox SF2 HF forums:
http://forums.xbox.com/474/ShowForum.aspx

Crayfish. (http://www.youtube.com/Crayfis)

Jinrai

05-16-2006, 07:37 AM

HF is awesome. Too bad I have nothing good to contribute.

On a useless note, I heard that there is a version of HF that the Konami code works on. Is this true? For those that don't know, you can enter the code in the arcade versions of WW and CE in attract mode while two CPU opponents are fighting each other. It gives you statistics about how many credits were put in the machine and how many times each character was selected.

Obot64.com

05-16-2006, 07:40 AM

Bravo for this thread.

Bill Wood

05-16-2006, 07:51 AM

Awesome, awesome stuff here. I've been playing more and more HF these days, I think it's safe to say it's my favorite fighting game of all time. No, make that my favorite game of all time. Crayfish, thanks a ton for your contributions.

BTW, I've sent my old Capcom SF2 VHS tape to another board member here for encoding (as I don't have the resources to transfer it), so be on the lookout for that sometime in the future. It's a great old-school tape, and features none other than Tomo Ohira (not in actual competition, just giving tips and stuff). Hopefully you guys will get a kick out of watching it.

Khiempossible

05-16-2006, 08:05 AM

1. This thread is top-tier
2. I have very little to contribute.

Saotome Kaneda

05-16-2006, 08:34 AM

This is gonna be a lot more difficult to contribute to than the ST thread since no one in Okinawa HAS HF, and even less still play SF2 in general.

Crayfish

05-16-2006, 08:56 AM

To JinraiPVC, Obot64.com, Bill Wood & Callmeanewb, thanks alot guys, fantastic stuff. Really looking forward to the future of the thread after such a posotive start. CANT WAIT to see Tomo tape especialy :bgrin:

THE EMULATION SPEED ISSUE.
Soz, this is something important I had prepared to include in the origonal post. The has been alot of debate about the running speed of HF under emulation. For those who don't know, HF runs faster than the origonal arcade board under emulation, this is because the speed of the game in HF was linked to the CPU speed of the board (or something like that).
I have repeatedly timed the full round 'time out' matches of the tourney vids I'm posting, and the correct emulation using the fantastic old Callus Emulator.
I've concluded that a round (going by when the clock starts & finishes) is around:

57 SECONDS

In both Mame and WinKawaks under normal settings a round will last approx

46.5 SECONDS

clearly a significant speed inrease, and 'very' noticable when played side by side.

The Solution:
1.) I've only tested these three (Callus, Mame & WinKawaks) emulators, of which only Callus emulates the speed correctly. There may be other Emulators that also work (would appreciate some 'verified' input on this) so you could use one of them to play the game.
2.) Winkawaks (and maybe other Emus ??) allows you to configure the CPU frequency manualy
(Menu> Misc> Configure 68000 frequency)
so you can adjust this setting so the game runs at the correct speed (you can use the arrow keys for fine tuning). Setting the frequency to '7mhz' (which is a nice round number to remember) yeilded fairly accurate results, tho a more accurate setting may be in the late 6 range (6.75 or so). When I tested this setting in Killera Netplay, it seemed to use the adjusted CPU frequency if both of you had the same setting, tho I can't be sure because of the added time of 'Lag Pauses' (more testing needed).

*I would vey much appreciate some more 'varified' input and secondary testing on these results and other possible solutions for accurate online play. Its very important to the future of the game, that these issues are cleared up as early as possible.
Thnx..

Crayfish.

Crayfish

05-17-2006, 03:11 AM

Ok, here is part 2 (of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg1Grp D & E

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CKQKIL71

Have reposted hre Apoc's breakdown of Rog vs Sim in HF (frm the Tomo thread):

I'll do my best off the top. It's been over a decade, lol. Really quick, me and Schaefer played 5 times in tourney and I lost 'em all. However, Sagat doesn't beat Rog. It's a great match. In fact, my first tourney facing Watson I used Rog vs. Watts Ryu AND Sagat and single handedly eliminated him in winners' and losers' bracket. I lost one game of 7 then. Fine, they didn't have Rog experience but I didn't have "top player" experience as I didn't play with those guys and had my local 'cades so, that just proves who brought serious Rog to the scene, lol.

K, Rog and Sim is in total favor of Sim if only because Sim can get away with a mistake or two but Rog can't. Otherwise, it's a great match. Part of Rog's main strat is to not get knocked down or to get hit with a drill(Blocked or not) that also allows Sim to land. This means that you need disgression when attacking and appropriate range(Sounds like ol skool, huh? heheh).

When attacking, you want to make sure that Sim can't move much. Meaning, don't st. fierce if he can move. You can eat a low move and get tossed around. Either attack after he's afraid to flinch or after he's whiffed. That way you hit the start up of Sim's moves or follow them in for free. I particular counter any whiffed legs over my head. This allows me more freedom to jump from farther when Sim realizes the risk in throwing out random standing kicks. Much like A3, Rog's dash will go through the kicks at the right range and nail him for free(I took this part of Rog vs. Sim straight from HF). A good Sim will be VERY careful about throwing out st.kicks.

Staying just outside max slide range is perfect for TAPS through Sim's punches while also being able to react instantly to any whiffed slides.

A smart Sim will only throw fireballs at a range where Rog can't tap safely. It's important to know this range and either jump over fireballs early or simply block while working toward better positioning. At this range the only thing to watch for is the jab fireball. An early jump will land on it so just block or jump straight up but only while Sim is in recoil.

Drills MUST be taken care of. If Sim gets to the air at the right range without you nailing him you must walk into it and either take the hit or block close enough to counter before he lands. If you block or get hit by it at this range, it's over. Tossed to death. However, less than perfect drills are Rog's best friend here. Instead of taking the hit high and throwing, Rog should take the hit high(blocked or not) and combo to dizzy and then the round is over with Rog winning. Still, once Rog is down, there's no risk for Sim and, again, it's over. As with many characters, st. jab counters clean from the proper range and st. strong is great too. Utilize all of your AA's against Sim ON THE WAY UP. Dash is good to take a high hit to combo too.

When knocking down sim, Rog should get free damage. Deep TAP to jab dash and keep your range.

Rog's big advantage is his ability to dizzy so fast. Sim is a big character and therefore takes some huge Rog combos like the one I listed in my last post. That combo is the ender because Sim has to guess to avoid further damage. After the 2nd dash upper, Rog can walk up and overhead with jumping fierce, throw or trip. The throw sets up more damage or even a glitch juggle(like that Japanese vid), usually in the corner(heheh Sim can do it to Rog too).
Apoc

Bill Wood

05-17-2006, 09:08 AM

Thanks for the great info Crayfish, this is the exact kinda stuff I was looking for in my Dhalsim thread that is dying on the vine in the Strat section. :) I've just now started up with Sim after playing this game for over a decade, and I think I'll be sticking with him for awhile.

I'm not sure what else I can contribute here, but I still have the old SF2T guides with tier/match listings and such. If anyone is interested in those, I can put 'em up when I get home tonight.

Crayfish

05-17-2006, 09:29 AM

Keep an eye on the Gang Zhou tourney m8, there are quite a few Dhalsim players on there, and I'm hoping (O Sim master) Shirts might pass through at some point. Sure people would love to see the old guide's, for nostalga as much as anything. That reminds me:

The Sunnyvale Golfland article
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5429/hfguidebookp158golfland7hn.jpg
& the Tomo Ohira interview
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4025/hfguidebookp159tomo8de.jpg
both from the GamePro HF Guidebook *Reposted from the 'Tomo' thread.

If any collectors are on here, check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Its a different instructional video to the Gamest one I've already posted up. I'd love to see it. If anyone gets/has this, let us know, there have been several kind offers already to rip/ host anything like this for the thread.

Crayfish.

TrueSephiroth

05-17-2006, 02:02 PM

BTW, I've sent my old Capcom SF2 VHS tape to another board member here for encoding (as I don't have the resources to transfer it), so be on the lookout for that sometime in the future. It's a great old-school tape, and features none other than Tomo Ohira (not in actual competition, just giving tips and stuff). Hopefully you guys will get a kick out of watching it.

That is some sweet stuff Wood, I want to see this too, so hopefully that member encodes it soon and post it on here for all of us to download, watch and learn, HF was imo the #1 best SF game, I loved it. Plus it would be nice to see some tips from Tomo, since he was the beast of his time...*sigh*, what I would give to see the man come back and beast in oldschool again.

Btw, Crayfish, great shit I tell you, I'm just sorry that I can't contribute but I fully support this idea though.

Bill Wood

05-17-2006, 06:55 PM

Decoy

05-17-2006, 07:13 PM

As promised, here are the character rankings from the SF2 Turbo Strategy Guide, which are supposedly meant to reflect success in expert-level player vs. player competition (at the time of the guide's writing anyway):

1: Guile
2: (tie) Ryu, Sagat
4: (tie) Zangief, Ken, Chun Li
7: E.Honda
8: Blanka
9: Vega
10: Balrog
11: Dhalsim
12: M.Bison

Guile: Key advantages vs. Zangief, Ken and Chun Li.
Ryu: Key advantages vs. Sagat, Ken and Chun Li.
Sagat: Key advantages vs. Zangief, Ken and Chun Li. Only disadvantage vs. Ryu.
Zangief: Key disadvantages vs. Guile and Sagat.

How do you think this list has changed in the dozen+ years after the game's release? Who is the most misrepresented character on the list? And who is exactly where they should be?

Wow, that list definately is a bit wierd. I mean. IMO, I think Blanka is easily top 5 or even top 3. When you have a ball attack that hits on the way up or down, that leads to some messed up situations for most characters. I think Ryu would be number 1 on that list. Hurricane kick that knocks down and goes over Guile's Sonic Booms gives him a distinct advantage.

~Decoy

SNkNuT

05-17-2006, 07:52 PM

yeah. i definitely owned some peeps with blanka in this game. he should be in top 5.

GGL-steve

05-17-2006, 08:06 PM

That list is off and also, IMHO tiers were fairly balanced in HF compared to games of today

dogberry

05-17-2006, 08:10 PM

Some weird things about the list.

Guile does not have an advantage against Chun. It's actually the other way around. I don't think Ryu has an advantage against Sagat either. I think it's the other way around as well.

IMO Ryu was no.1 in Hyper simply because he had fewer bad matches than Guile. Ryu had some problems with Sagat(?), Zangief and Vega. Guile had problems with Ryu, Blanka, Chun, Dhalsim and Vega.

Khiempossible

05-18-2006, 12:16 AM

Blanka high tier for once? WTF I know I beast with him round here, but that's cause most of the players are just OG, haven't touched it in years and don't play on a regular basis.

I miss his x-up j. short that he has in later games though.

psychochronic

05-18-2006, 03:48 AM

here I have edited out and paragraphed the
'Hyper Fighting Dizzy System, Charr guides & strategies'
section from Dogberry's fantastic 'ST-HF strategies' text guide comp. *2 sources:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7VHDM0LV
http://rapidshare.de/files/20593475/2._HF_Dizzy_System__Charr_guides___strategies.txt. html

Go Kevin go. :tup:

Crayfish

05-18-2006, 05:57 AM

*EDITED TO INCLUDE T.AKIBA RANKINGS

Ok here is part 3(of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg1Grp F,G & H
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y6SUVHS5

Thanks alot Bill, I hadn't noticed just how odd these findings were until you posted them up again. This is an excellent starting point to get the discussion going. To see exactly how they broke the matches down, I've scaned the page in here:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/4975/hfguidebookp118rankchart5il.jpg
*can anyone explain to me how to have a thumbnail of the image that links to Imageshack, soz I'm stupid. Also like to know how to create a 'link' out of a 'word' instead of having to print the entire URL. Thnx.

Now we already have Tomo's own ranking from the same publication:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4025/hfguidebookp159tomo8de.jpg
And thnx to Middlekick for translation we also have the latest T.Akiba rankings:

HYPER FIGHTING RANKINGS 94 - PRESENT:
GamePro HF Guide:...................Tomo Ohira:.................T.Akiba

1: Guile ....................................1. Guile ......................1. E.Honda
2: (tie) Ryu, Sagat ....................2. Ryu ........................2. Boxer
4: (tie) Zangief, Ken, Chun Li .....3. Sagat .....................3. Ryu/Ken
7: E.Honda ...............................4. Blanka ....................5. Blanka
8: Blanka ..................................5. Ken .......................6. Guile
9: Vega ....................................6.Dhalsim ...................7. Sagat
10: Balrog ................................7. Chun Li ...................8. Zangief
11: Dhalsim ..............................8. Zangief ...................9. Claw
12: M.Bison ...............................9. Balrog ...................10. Chun Li
................................................10 . E.Honda ................11. Dhalsim
................................................11 . Vega ...................12. M.Bison
................................................12 . M.Bison

*T.Akiba is THE Japanese SF2 Supersite, and afaik, in Japan is the most highly regarded source of information on the game. We can regard this as the the most upto date concensus on rankings in Japan. http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/diagrama.html
E.Honda is no.1?!?!? Amazing Eh?, I've heard alot abt HF Honda, I know he has is the anystrength knockdown kicks & porkchop, but even so!! Also Boxer waay up there, amazing, proves Apoc right if its accurate. I think SRK member Dasrik is the man for HF Honda here on SRK, would be interested in what he has to say.

*It would be fantastic if someone could translate the 10point ranking chart so we can see how these matchups breakdown

Jeff Schaefer must have had another different ranking as well, as he's quoted as saying he has Blanka in the top 3 on the Tomo thread. And told his story of beating the Wolf Brothers 32-0 with Blanka against all comers:
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2760083#post2760083
I guess Jeff would have top 3:
1. Sagat
2. Guile
3. Blanka
with Ryu being pushed out, as those are his winning characters.
How do you guys have it?

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

RobsMac

05-18-2006, 09:03 AM

I can't help but keep thinking that those rankings by Tomo and GamePro are very old and yes while they do have actual experience backing those rankings, they don't account for the discoveries in these last 10+ years.

Anyways, you can stick the t-akiba page into Google translator and it becomes pretty clear what the breakdowns are.

In order from up to down (and left to right):
Ryu
Ken
E.Honda
Chun Li
Blanka
Zangief
Guile
Dhalsim
Boxer
Claw
Sagat
Dic

Quick Excel job:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5992/turborank8ue.jpg

Looking at the breakdown for Honda shows he has a couple of lopsided matchups (9-1 vs Dhalsim, wtf?!) Pretty much the site says his only bad matchups are again Ryu/Ken (but not to Guile?)

Great old-school threads (this and the ST one by NKI.)

Bill Wood

05-18-2006, 09:08 AM

*It would be fantastic if someone could translate the 10point ranking chart so we can see how these matchups breakdown

If you're referring to the chart on the page that says "Hyper", I may be able to do that. I can read most hiragana/katakana and a tiny bit of kanji, enough to get me through that chart anyway. I'll see if I can recreate that chart as an English language .jpg or something.

EDIT: Here you go, I think I got everything right:

http://home.comcast.net/~billwood661/t-akiba_sf2_rankings.jpg

fluxcore

05-18-2006, 02:15 PM

THE EMULATION SPEED ISSUE.
The Solution:
1.) I've only tested these three (Callus, Mame & WinKawaks) emulators, of which only Callus emulates the speed correctly. There may be other Emulators that also work (would appreciate some 'verified' input on this) so you could use one of them to play the game.
*I would vey much appreciate some more 'varified' input and secondary testing on these results and other possible solutions for accurate online play. Its very important to the future of the game, that these issues are cleared up as early as possible.
Thnx..

Crayfish.

I don't know exactly what the speed should be (there has been a reasonable amount of discussion on the MAME bugs pages about the issue, which amounts to "I think the devs haven't implemented the wait states correctly"), it certainly is remarkable that such an esteemed arcade game still hasn't been emulated correctly. I padhacked some XBOX pads to USB for my computer, but neither Callus nor Kawaks recognises the dpad directions, so MAME is my only option.

However, it is possible to throttle the speed of the game when using MAME. Some places say you need cheats enabled to do this, but I'm not sure that's still necessary.

In MAME, with game loaded:
Press the '~' button (under ESC)
Scroll through the list using the up and down buttons (this navigation system is not obvious)
Find "CPU0"
Left and right to adjust speed, I believe around 70-75% is close to accurate.

I haven't tried this on SF2T recently, only SSF2X, in which CPU0 is cpu speed and CPU1 is audio cpu speed, so don't muck with CPU1 or else the sounds go mad.
Additionally, I've had some problems with SSF2X crashing mame after a few rounds using this method, which isn't expected. YMMV.

Edit: Just tried it with SF2T and it worked a charm. I'm still not sure which speed percentage is closer to accurate, as I don't have a cab handy (although I'm working on it... :D)

--flux

r3ko

05-18-2006, 02:57 PM

Sorry for late reply Crayfish, in middle of exams, but as promised, here are alot of great threads i've managed to dig up from the agsf2 newsgroup. Not all these threads are going be useful and the tactics and strategies are by no means perfect. People have to remember these threads are 14 years old, but if anything offer good insight into the history of the game and the Sf2 online community.

First i better start with Falcon Feather's guides for CE (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=alt.games.sf2&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=feather&lr=&as_drrb=q&as_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=18&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2006&safe=off), his guides seem to cover the fundamentals for each character, although the information is quite dated now, people looking to get into sf2 will find them very helpful.

Also here is the Sf2CE strategy bible (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/e4e2b7f314944184/aeeef84b91cb0927?q=sf2ce+guide&rnum=2#aeeef84b91cb0927)also a good resource, with tips on matchups

HF FAQ (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/0bb250a8b563bac5/61d0a4396baf16a0#61d0a4396baf16a0)

Heres a great HF matchup Ryu vs Blanka and Ryu vs Guile (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/78f578d1e2c492b3?q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject %3Aguile&hl=en&)Thread. Warning, this is a very long read.

MMSF HF Blanka guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/82eb33cdbd1fc72/f31641f993ea7a63?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Ablanka&rnum=49&hl=en#f31641f993ea7a63)

HF Gief Guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/4df08cf6f6663831/668ece3d0cba5fb3?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Aguide&rnum=6&hl=en#668ece3d0cba5fb3)

HF Balrog (boxer) guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/2305a7b87cd70936/33a6be0ca5ea711f?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Aguide&rnum=19&hl=en#33a6be0ca5ea711f)

Discussion about Guile's inescapable pattern against Chun (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/9ec311aa5e62c1ff?q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject %3Aguile&hl=en&)

MMSF Guile guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/c4b1cc1a5a91fb91/b8730092c539fe18?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Aguile&rnum=153&hl=en#b8730092c539fe18)

Vega vs Blanka Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/5558bc8b5681b842/cb0e02bedf66ff9a?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Ablanka&rnum=48&hl=en#cb0e02bedf66ff9a)

Another Vega vs Blanka Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/5558bc8b5681b842/1d691b857ca9a564#1d691b857ca9a564)

Zangief vs Ryu/Blanka/Honda small thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/55f4df84cbf682cf/bbe739249a3ed81b?lnk=st&q=group%3Aalt.games.sf2+insubject%3Ablanka&rnum=50&hl=en#bbe739249a3ed81b)

Guile trapping patterns guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/9de1b679552a6cb1/0b1f9f0831cfe6c0#0b1f9f0831cfe6c0)

MMSF Sagat guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/9205de8ca0a6374b/f308aaf767003667#f308aaf767003667)

MMSF Vega(claw) Guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/a72aeef07c7ee07e/96e032bf1029ebc1#96e032bf1029ebc1)

Honda Ultimate Tick by S.Kill (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/da9288321975045b/b9e8554c6c5d105c#b9e8554c6c5d105c)

Discussion about HF Vega (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/787d5fa55fa8b485/fb16eb135bce0894#fb16eb135bce0894)

MMSF Bison guide (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/3ce77cf64dc1c213/76eaa1a30f99da67#76eaa1a30f99da67)

Interesting discussion about Throws (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/175d654ed7a6af67/8d74e0887795dc1c#8d74e0887795dc1c)

Standard Combos thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/67efd86019b5fded/b6dacecf9d5390ec#b6dacecf9d5390ec)

Countering Honda's HHS (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/b77d30765bbb76c4/e701f4b0463f565e#e701f4b0463f565e)

S.Kill talks about how Ryu is superior to Ken in HF (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/492ccc8202c01c85/3780d5a03a235f9e#3780d5a03a235f9e)

Vega (when no claw) vs Shotos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/494ef5410aea6db2/4fb42327371464fe#4fb42327371464fe)

A Guide on Learning to play sf2 (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/a9649780419762e4/251b132b779ec821#251b132b779ec821)

Discussion about following up booms on blanka and shotos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/230555d6f4583e6f/a6f2a2460877208d#a6f2a2460877208d)

Balrog vs Shotos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/5301a9a208475fad/ced14aefa7b6bb39#ced14aefa7b6bb39)

Balrog vs Zangief (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/c3f4478096c6e113/a4dc3632d3858062#a4dc3632d3858062)

Zangief vs Dhalsim (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/074c8caad43bb905/86dedb0cc79b7c38#86dedb0cc79b7c38)

Big discussion about being cheap (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/994a5f244805bd3c/6a22084fb1931bcb#6a22084fb1931bcb)

Chun li discussion (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/d638360ac903e521/e506c80df8dff5c3#e506c80df8dff5c3)

Guile's knee thrust tick (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/4d72eba2232e6db2/790317cec7b05ca5#790317cec7b05ca5)

Blanka vs Balrog (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/3219b57290ce9e12/6f4237d09fd1fd54#6f4237d09fd1fd54)

Guile vs Sagat's low tigers (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/dc3cd306b27358ac/fffece1808405a0b#fffece1808405a0b)

Comparing Bison in CE and HF (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/48c83200f68d2249/ea29b1fc240afaed#ea29b1fc240afaed)

Discussion about the cheapness Bison was in CE (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/724b402bffd70792/6b8000736ef19c6c#6b8000736ef19c6c)

Guile vs Gief (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/7438aee82aec5e5b/836d3eb63931e33e#836d3eb63931e33e)

Combo inconsistencies (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/decd8c1d25c6b40e/d00ffcc2f8b8d7d7#d00ffcc2f8b8d7d7)

Guile can't tick aswell in HF (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/9e0efc39422626b4/72c000bf31c7da34#72c000bf31c7da34)

Another discussion about Vega (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/f86b7764e3ee9410/3b90e3769b5da80a#3b90e3769b5da80a)

Stylish combos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/28f302c61b92eb18/475cdb23e82cf381#475cdb23e82cf381)

Zangief combos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/87cc0224c0567f2f/4ac400d1f5cf32c0#4ac400d1f5cf32c0)

More Guile vs Ryu (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/ce085b46689c7a9a/09348c247e1c72d8#09348c247e1c72d8)

Ryu Tips (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/21a9f97ef10ab603/1939f03798374c78#1939f03798374c78)

Rogs 50% punch (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/2461b091235319bc/50cb9a035a6f8f62#50cb9a035a6f8f62)

Throw ranges (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/e1ea1f8b2ad72710/99a8046af597a090#99a8046af597a090)

Sagat Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/73e14f7382f8150a/3e4f914d974d3f95#3e4f914d974d3f95)

Chun li tips (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/1cc3b24dca913af6/7fbe8698187b2063#7fbe8698187b2063)

Sac Throwing (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/a79a50197abd74d8/0986213490c87d0e#0986213490c87d0e)

Vega countering HKs (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/a79a50197abd74d8/0986213490c87d0e#0986213490c87d0e)

Dhalsim Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/d460dd0d0f34b7bd/eccfaf24cf275581#eccfaf24cf275581)

Discussion about Guiles Best combos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/d91f9f38d89f7b69/5317222c989854cb#5317222c989854cb)

Honda Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/aebed2018330cbc3/dc19c6c4af7697bf#dc19c6c4af7697bf)

Balrog vs Sagat and Bison vs Guile (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/297500bdd0808e60/e3f678dce8892b5d#e3f678dce8892b5d)

More Combos (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/75122c5873f978dc/327758cab0f30edb#327758cab0f30edb)

Ryu Thread (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/87be9adaa1d0fdcf/295dfbabd1122d32#295dfbabd1122d32)

Character Ranking (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/ab20ff7ff99f399e/1d64def8027bcbb1#1d64def8027bcbb1)

Shotos vs Balrog (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.sf2/browse_frm/thread/ad7eaaa17e95b782/28b6c220f46ef978#28b6c220f46ef978)

Thats about all i can muster right now, more to come though. Enjoy

Crayfish

05-18-2006, 03:33 PM

Bill Wood & RobsMac fascinating findings guys, thanks for getting those out so quickly. Intruiged by the results. It shows just how much the game must have evolved since its peak in the west, and is testimony to its depth. Its almost like the game has been copletely tipped upsidedown, far from seeming worn out, seems like were only just scratching the surface of HF. I really looking forward to the future.
Fluxcore, thanks for those findings, am very glad there is a solution with Mame as along with Winkawaks its pretty much the online standard. Pls keep us posted on anything else U find.
Wow r3ko, thought you'd dig some great stuff upbut didn't expect that. Great work, where to start!

The future is looking really bright. Thanks again.
Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

RobsMac

05-19-2006, 03:09 AM

Well, thank you for posting links to those cn1 tourney footage. Kind of funny hearing Canto during the gameplay, kinda reminds me of being in the arcades back in the day.

And I swear that I heard the word 'wut' (ticking) a few times during those matches. Good to know this term has survived all these years, lol.

polarity

05-19-2006, 03:41 AM

Noob question:

What's the deal with all these people in the AGSF2 threads talking about counterthrow like it's the only way out of ticks? Did reversal DP not work in HF, or did they just not know about it then?

edit: Oh, it seems like some people did know about it. Still not a particularly popular strategy though?

Khiempossible

05-19-2006, 04:12 AM

polarity

05-19-2006, 04:20 AM

I imagine reversal throw is way safer.

reversal dragon punch

-> connect = knockdown and mediocre damage
-> block = you're fucked
-> missed = you're thrown

reversal throw

-> connect = throw
-> opp outside throw range but you inside opp's throw range = you thrown
-> opp blocks outside of throw range = blocked normal = safe

Yeah, but DP can counter tick throw attempts as well as short, short, c.RH or similar, whereas counter-throw will only counter the throw attempt, won't it?

Just remembered that you can reversal throw people out of a hit in ST at least, so perhaps I'm wrong actually. I guess in that case reversal DP would only be useful if your opponent has a longer throw range than you, and does something like Short x 3 to tick

edit: To contradict myself again, now that I think about it, wouldn't a perfectly-timed reversal throw always be guaranteed against something like c.Short, c.Short, c.RH, even if you couldn't reversal throw vs. a hit (presuming you're in throw range)? If the c.RH hits you while still in blockstun you block it anyway, otherwise they have to leave a gap which you can then use to throw. I guess if they time the c.RH so it hits on the first frame you're out of blockstun, then it wouldn't work...but all this is a moot point if you can reversal throw people out of a hit anyway. God fucking dammit, just ignore me, I'm so confused :lol:

Obot64.com

05-19-2006, 04:22 AM

Khiempossible

05-19-2006, 05:33 AM

you can reversal c.short c.short c.roundhouse given you have throw range.

NKI

05-19-2006, 08:16 AM

Hi.

I don't know much about HF, but I wanted to make two notes of caution:

While T.Akiba's site is the best site in the world for technical info (frame data, breakdown of game system, etc), you shouldn't take his HF rankings as the word of God. I dunno if that page is simply how he feels the rankings go, or if the page is just outdated or what, but his ST rankings are not accurate, so it would not surprise me if the HF rankings are inaccurate as well.

Also, alt.games.sf2 contained a lot of good info, but it also contained a lot of bad info, so don't believe everything you read there.

GGL-steve

05-19-2006, 08:29 AM

Yeah, but DP can counter tick throw attempts as well as short, short, c.RH or similar, whereas counter-throw will only counter the throw attempt, won't it?

Just remembered that you can reversal throw people out of a hit in ST at least, so perhaps I'm wrong actually. I guess in that case reversal DP would only be useful if your opponent has a longer throw range than you, and does something like Short x 3 to tick

edit: To contradict myself again, now that I think about it, wouldn't a perfectly-timed reversal throw always be guaranteed against something like c.Short, c.Short, c.RH, even if you couldn't reversal throw vs. a hit (presuming you're in throw range)? If the c.RH hits you while still in blockstun you block it anyway, otherwise they have to leave a gap which you can then use to throw. I guess if they time the c.RH so it hits on the first frame you're out of blockstun, then it wouldn't work...but all this is a moot point if you can reversal throw people out of a hit anyway. God fucking dammit, just ignore me, I'm so confused :lol:

You can throw people out of a LOT of shit in HF, eating a hit to get a throw is often a good choice.

The throw is fairly safe compared to a DP which does less damage, and leaves you completely fucked should you hit air.

BiolloInTrip

05-19-2006, 10:25 AM

Golden thread

Crayfish

05-19-2006, 10:49 AM

If anyone thinks that Hyperfighting deservers more than a thread (like a whole site dedicated to it) let me know. I have some extra webspace i would be willing to donate to such a project.

Edit: Hyper Fighting Tournament 4-15-2006 Footage on www.michigangamers.net

We have another turny coming up at the end of this month. ;p

Those vids were great Obot, I am really surprised. Getting compeition going in the west and getting vids of it up was the next big step as far as I saw it, your already way ahead of us, great work :tup:
You even have one of those origonal HF cabinets I'd seen on the net with the character art around the screen. Fantastic to see HF Chun and Rog doing thier thing, and Ken with Tripples, man thats what HF is all about :china:

Im deffo up for cotributing some stuff toward a site after seeig that stuff. Am busy for next week or so, but after that.... Can't wait to see the next torney. Pls keep us posted.

Thnks NKI sorting the good stuf out will be one of the main undertakings for us deffo.

More Guang Zhou soon. *returns to Obot vids...
Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

JumpsuitJesse

05-19-2006, 11:10 AM

Crayfish, or NKI. Maybe you guys can answer this. I have SF2 HF for Jamma. Cmutt and I were playing last week and we both agreed that this game is alot slower than ST on US Speed 3.

How fast is this game supposed to be? I always hear people talk about how fast SF2 HF is and I just don't see it.

Is there a dipswitch setting I am missing or something?

polarity

05-19-2006, 11:29 AM

Obot64.com

05-19-2006, 11:49 AM

I saw a post on AGSF2 saying that different HF cabs run at noticeably different speeds.

I wonder why that is?

edit~
Crayfish:
Be sure to check out the 15 match gauntlet where I go up against Hollow (who has been playing HF since it came out) in a new school vs old school battle).

polarity

05-19-2006, 11:53 AM

I wonder why that is?

I know it's the same for CvS2 too (even at the same speed setting). Different production runs of the boards or something, perhaps?

NKI

05-19-2006, 01:49 PM

I think I have a HF board at home (not sure), but if I do, I'll pop it in to test.

All I remember is when I first played arcade HF (which was after I started playing ST), I just could not believe how fast the game was.

r3ko

05-19-2006, 03:50 PM

i occasionally play crayfish on kaillera and i gotta say the speed is mental fast on that. As Crayfish said it runs too fast, and we were testing out to see if its possible to play at the correct speed online by altering the cpu speed from 12 to 7.5. Crayfish thinks its works but i remain skeptical ( I think lag threw the timing off). Wondering if anyone else has tried to getting HF working at the correct speed online?

Obot64.com

05-19-2006, 04:34 PM

r3ko: HF on mame runs differently than HF on callus I tested that the other day...but I thought it was because of the different programming of each emu... perhaps I have different romsets too.....

Crayfish

05-19-2006, 04:35 PM

Concerning the speed issue see my 2nd post in the thread here:
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3131907#post3131907
From timing full rounds in the GaungZhou matchvids and the correct Callus emulation, I found a round should last around 57 seconds (I dont know how this wil rlate to CPS2 as the counter may run at a diffeent rate..).
I'll check through Obots vids to find a full round time up (if there is one), to time that too. Its certainly slower than ST speed 3. Im sure the different settings in ST are susposed to represent the different versions. If you go into CPS2 system configuration you have 4 speed settings (rather than 3 if you set it to free select). They are labeled differently in the World and JApanese versions, either 0 to 3 or 1 to 4. The first speed is WW the second is CE, the third HF and the fourth is the new ST speed.

I pretty sure the perception of HFs speed is down to:
The memory of the game being hugely faster than previous CE and WW versions when it first arrived.
The fact that HF 'plays' fast. Increased speed, high damage, easy exetuion.
Also people primarily playing the emulated versions and the oonsole versions (using the default 3 stars setting) that all run too fast, ater the game dissapeared in most arcades.
Plus the subliminal effect of the game being called 'Turbo' :P

The same thing had happened to me, I'd been playing the console then incorrectly emulated versions (mame kawaks) for a long time so when I got those GangZhou vids in 2003 I couldn't understand why thier arcade version was running so slow. Then I heard about the CPU emulation issue... and have now returned to playing the Callus version of Kawaks set to 7mhz.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

NKI

05-19-2006, 05:17 PM

JumpsuitJesse

05-19-2006, 05:37 PM

Man, but I remember HF being faster. Alot faster. I have played on arcades where I was like "Damn, this is faster than the arcade version I have at home"

It felt close to ST speed 3 speeds(USA). It seriously fucks with my timing because I play both ST and HF now.

Oh NKI, can you PM me and tell me how to contribute to the ST WIKI?

I have some stuff done, but alot more to go.:wgrin:

dbycrash

05-19-2006, 07:37 PM

i played this game a ton back in the day, and still do from time to time. one of my favorite aspects about this incarnation of SF2 is that the jump-in became a more viable option due to the speed of the game. turtling became less of a dominant strategy than in previous versions for a number of reasons.

... on a more personal note; i remember seeing this game for the first time at disney world in orlando, FL. being 13 at the time and already a diehard street fighter fan, seeing this game was more amazing than the rollercoasters and fireworks combined that day. instead of meeting all the disney characters and running around the park, i spent close to 10 hours playing anyone who would come up to the machine and offer a challenge(sparing 2 hours for space mountain and the haunted mansion). probably the most shocking aspects of this game were the first time i witnessed chun throw a fireball; immediatly i thought to myself: "that has to be the ugliest fireball i have ever seen"... then came the biggest shock in the form of the dhalsim teleport; shocking enough that it prompted me to pick sim for the first time in over a year atleast. after a good hour of mastering this new technique my conclusion was "the punch/kick, f,hcf/b,hcb combinations are too laborious to master.. sim sucks anyway"(if i only knew then what i know now).

HF is nostalgia at it's best. i still consider this to be the most refined version of street fighter ever created. there are obvious tiers and bad matchups, but every character has solid strategies that, if executed properly, gives him/her a chance against most, if not all, of the cast. imho, capcom's strategy to not nerf any character, but instead make the weaker ones stronger was the catalyst which made this game so great. i remember people arguing that dictator lost his edge and claw became a beast; but that was then.. now an experienced player can exploit dictator almost as well as in CE and any character with a decent anti-air can keep claw at bay. HF will always be one of my fav. games of all time.

JumpsuitJesse

05-19-2006, 11:17 PM

SNkNuT

05-20-2006, 12:35 AM

laugh

05-20-2006, 01:25 AM

Ultracade won't be a good standard to compare stuff to.

Arcade HF is definitely slower than US ST Turbo 3. It even says so in the ST operator's guide booklet. It said something about how Turbo 2 is close to the speed of HF and that Turbo 3 is faster than HF. Mame devs are (supposedly) working on making the HF speed match that of the arcade, and it's a pretty well known issue that they're always bugged about from people.

Also, I agree that there are about 2-3 different revisions of arcade cvs2 with speed differences, but I highly doubt the different revisions of HF have speed differences.

Crayfish

05-20-2006, 04:49 AM

I've just tested all three revs US, World and Japan (all are numbered 921209) in Winkawaks with the CPU frequency set to 7mhz. They all run the same speed.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

polarity

05-20-2006, 05:09 AM

I've just tested all three revs US, World and Japan (all are numbered 921209) in Winkawaks with the CPU frequency set to 7mhz. They all run the same speed.

Crayfish.

I don't think this really confirms anything, as you're not running the games on the original hardware. It seems possible to me that perhaps different board revisions had very slight hardware differences (i.e. the clock speed of the processor being set slightly differently), which could account for speed differences on different cabs. Just a theory, though.

Crayfish

05-20-2006, 05:46 AM

I don't think this really confirms anything, as you're not running the games on the original hardware. It seems possible to me that perhaps different board revisions had very slight hardware differences (i.e. the clock speed of the processor being set slightly differently), which could account for speed differences on different cabs. Just a theory, though.

I think it confirms that any susposed difference in speed isn't down to the different software revisions.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Maxstah

05-20-2006, 05:47 AM

speaking of memories, there used to be a little place here in VA called Championship Video. We got to play HF before it was offically released. James Goddard was able to bring the test chips over from california and I believe we ran the first tournament on HF in the states. (which I took down btw hehe) It was mentioned at the back of the HF strat guide. I remember poor James had to play about 200 kids IN A ROW and the people that beat him were able to enter the tourney. He was the first legit gief player I ever saw in action. Also in the test version Balrog had some neon colors that never made it to final production. There was also another difference that at this time escapes me. All I can remember when i played that first game with him i said omG how can one play at this speed?! then again it was way back then and it was right after champ edt. which was super slow so anything prolly felt fast.

Bill Wood

05-20-2006, 05:58 AM

Crayfish

05-20-2006, 05:59 AM

Thats really interesting, thnx. I wonder if this beta will ever be released? I've never heard anything about it.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

*EDIT WOW thanks alot Bill and Preppy, dlding atm. Been waiting 13 YEARS to see Tomo, Thanks so much. great work :china:

polarity

05-20-2006, 06:03 AM

I think it confirms that any susposed difference in speed isn't down to the different software revisions.

Crayfsh.

Haha, yeah, of course. Sorry, I thought you were trying to demonstrate that no differences existed at all :confused:

Crayfish

05-20-2006, 08:35 AM

Wow, I just tested out my HF board, and it was way, way, way slower than I remember. Looking back on it now, I think when I played HF, I played it on nothing but emus and Capcom Generations 5, which is why I remember HF being this speed:
http://nki.combovideos.com/GuileHF.mpeg

(That vid was done with Capcom Generations 5, by the way.)

But now that I've played the arcade version, ST is definitely faster.
Thanks for hosting that vid again NKI, I never tire of watching those wild CPS1 chains. Have you or would you ever consider making a CPS1 combovid to go along with your CPS2 ones? That would be cool.
btw to everyone who's not yet bought it, the excellent 'INSANITY STARTING OVER HYPER STREET FIGHTER 2 DVD': http://www.inhgroup.com/item/st2/
features (what I'm pretty sure is) TZW's origonal Guile exhibition combovideo, that Sean said he took these combos from. Its absolutely awsome, and features imo the most badass combo in SF2. Guile: crossover HP, c.LK CPS1 chain into s.HPxx Flashkick. awsome.

Also NKI, have you ever come accross any HF related sites or info on your journeys around T.Akiba and other Japanese sites, do any of the frame data etc.. pages relate to other versions (HF) or only ST?
I found this page of JApanese SF2 links, mainly ST I think, but maybe there is some HF stuff in there too? Anyone...:
http://homepage1.nifty.com/camera-ya/kansyou_link.htm
Finding Japanese info on HF is the most important next step (now that Obot has kickstarted the western tourney/ vid scene).

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Khiempossible

05-20-2006, 01:02 PM

Anybody got details on how many stars I should be running HF on on a genesis?

I keep the standard (i think it's 3) but occasionally we play at 10 for some retardedly stupid matches.

fluxcore

05-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Some more notes on the MAME speed issue:

Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to give a "use this percentage" answer. It seems that one's particular MAME configuration makes enough difference to make that impossible. In particular, the MAME version makes a difference too!

100% CPU speed MAME32 v1.03 round speed: 52s
100% CPU speed MAME32 v1.06 round speed: 47s

(note that I can't be bothered with the command line version, so I use the GUI-style)

Quite a difference. So going by 1.06, with frame skipping on (I guess that's more likely to give correct results?) I determined that 60% speed is most close to giving a 57s round time, but is a bit slow. However, depending on things like how you have the refresh rates set up (game speed vs monitor speed, vsync etc), 65% may be closer to 57s.

I also tried a few setups without frame skipping, and it seems my computer (1.8GHz turion 64) either can't keep up 100% or something screwy is going on with frameskipping, because a round is significantly slower, requiring more like 70% CPU speed to get a 57s round.

So basically, you have to time it yourself with your own setups. Kind of sucky. Makes me wish that Kawaks supported t-hat directions in the control setup!

edit: http://www.mametesters.org/files/sf2t37b8yel.txt < This fellow reckons 65%, so I suppose I can go along with that.

--flux

NKI

05-20-2006, 11:24 PM

Have you or would you ever consider making a CPS1 combovid to go along with your CPS2 ones? That would be cool.In the intermission for Volume I, there are a few (rather bland) HF combos. Nothing special, and not even really worth the download if you ask me. :sad:

And no, I don't plan on doing any new vids for CPS1 games. Not unless I find something crazy and new, which is extremely unlikely.

btw to everyone who's not yet bought it, the excellent 'INSANITY STARTING OVER HYPER STREET FIGHTER 2 DVD': http://www.inhgroup.com/item/st2/
features (what I'm pretty sure is) TZW's origonal Guile exhibition combovideo, that Sean said he took these combos from.TZW's original Guile exhibition (I think it was called "TZW's Ultimate Guile") was basically 500 variations of the same 3 combos. The combo vid that was on The Starting Over was done by Tosaka, as far as I know. The glitch vid (The 真空投げ) was done by TZW.

Also NKI, have you ever come accross any HF related sites or info on your journeys around T.Akiba and other Japanese sites, do any of the frame data etc.. pages relate to other versions (HF) or only ST? Actually, T.Akiba's site has frame data for all the old school games, WW through ST.

http://nki.combovideos.com/ST
(See "Frame Data")

Crayfish

05-21-2006, 02:19 AM

Fluxcore, thanks alot for those findings. Do you have any idea if these settings can be used online? The good news is that there is pretty much an online standard with ver 0.64 so most people are using the same version. Also at some point the mame team are certain to address this properly. Seems so strange that its been an issue for such a high profile game for so long, esp as the very first CPS1 emu, Callus, had addressed it in 98.

NKI, yeah the Guile section I'm talking about is on the end of the glitch section, so am pretty sure its (at least part of) the TZW one. The grade of video looks pretty old, like something of its era. Was the origonal video ever ripped do you know? I saw it mentioned by alot of people in the US who had a VHS copy.

In the intermission for Volume I, there are a few (rather bland) HF combos. Nothing special, and not even really worth the download if you ask me. :sad:
*EDIT, just watched this, I really like the Ken slow fireball air huricane kick combo. Prolly best ro reserve that as Coup de grâce I imagine :)

Thanks alot, great work on the frame data, I'll link to this in the resources next update. :tup:

If there are any combovideo makers out there interested in doing a HF vid, or even starting to compile a list, that would be a great resorce. There are alot of combo's especialy CPS1 chains not featured on any western vids. Only Guile, thnx to the Sean Guiley vid NKI reposted has been showcased. Remember anyone with a rapidfire jab or short can CPS1 chain, as well as specific stuff like vert ball stuff for Blanka, Rogs dash combos like the ones mentioned by Apoc earlier, Vega roll re-dizzies etc....

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Crayfish

05-21-2006, 03:25 AM

Ok here is part 4 (of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg2Grp A,B,C & D

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=2WCSV6RP
Some SERIOUS Ryu beatdowns!!

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

NKI

05-21-2006, 09:25 AM

NKI, yeah the Guile section I'm talking about is on the end of the glitch section, so am pretty sure its (at least part of) the TZW one.Oh yeah, my mistake. I forgot about that section. That is indeed TZW.

The grade of video looks pretty old, like something of its era. Was the origonal video ever ripped do you know?Not that I know of. Maybe becase no one ever got a copy that had quality that was good enough to rip. I know my copies are pretty much unwatchable at some points (you literally can't tell what's going on, because the quality is so bad).

If there are any combovideo makers out there interested in doing a HF vid, or even starting to compile a list, that would be a great resorce. There are alot of combo's especialy CPS1 chains not featured on any western vids.I'd be down for it if there were any new material to use, but I don't really think that XCOPYing old TZW combos to make a vid is worth the effort.

TaygetaVendetta

05-23-2006, 01:07 PM

HF on 360 Arcade to have release date announced "soon" (http://xbox360.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3150988).

Damn this game is taking forever to come out ;_;

Khiempossible

05-24-2006, 12:23 AM

eidrian

05-24-2006, 08:59 AM

If any collectors are on here, check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Its a different instructional video to the Gamest one I've already posted up. I'd love to see it. If anyone gets/has this, let us know, there have been several kind offers already to rip/ host anything like this for the thread.

Crayfish.

I believe i have that Pony Canyon tape somewhere. I'll dig it out and put it up for download.

caliagent#3

05-24-2006, 09:02 AM

Watching those vids Crayfish hosted, I saw a ryu player consistently using hurricane kicks to trade with the fireball every time he saw a fireball in the ryu vs. ryu match. How effective of a strategy is this? the Ryu player using the tactic won. But I've never seen that done before.

hurricane does more damage, and if you time it right you'll go through the fb. It's kinda like rog trading dash punches vs a fireball.

Crayfish

05-24-2006, 05:18 PM

Ok here is part 5 (of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg2Grp E,F,G & H

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=VZVTAT1D

I believe i have that Pony Canyon tape somewhere. I'll dig it out and put it up for download.
Wow, that would be fantastc. Great new. Thanks Eidrian. Is it a stategy vid, combo focused of a bit of everythin like the Gamest one?

hurricane does more damage, and if you time it right you'll go through the fb. It's kinda like rog trading dash punches vs a fireball.
Hyper Fighting RYU

Yes this is a majr strat in HF. I can see why Decoy ranked Ryu number one in this game. In the local scene I came from, in the end one player dominated, a Ryu player, and his major advantage over everyone else was his mastery of the first 'frame invulnerable Cyclne kick'. It got to the point where you couldn't throw HP fireballs at hm at all, he would spin through them every time clean and nail you. Its great for certain AA situatins too, like when another shoto jumps in at full HK range, the Cyclone will kick way out in front and beat it clean, whereas a DP will often whiff. It was even a dangerous too attempt certain combos against the Ryu player as he was so good at canceling it out of hitstun. Often you would land two hits only for him to cancel into Cyclone, go through your fireball and counter you clean right back.

We should now deffo mention the CPS1 chain. This isn't just for exhibition combos, its a major part of Ryu's game in HF. It fulfills a kind of surrogate topdown/oerhead role. You can play some SERIOUS high low games with this. The simple c.LK, s.HPxxfireball CPS1 chain is so dangerous becase it gives Ryu te ability to dizzy an opponent from cold just sanding next to the opponent, without the need for a jumpin, charge or anything else, very few characters can do this. And all you need is one close c.LK!
You can fake going for a throw, player stands to counter, you switch to df on the stick + LK....dizzy.
You jumpin, player blocks high, you dont thow an air attack, land and go straight into c.K...dizzy
Player whiffs a DP you walk in, c.LK...dizzy. Its one combo that should be 100% for every serious Ryu player.

There is a nice variation of a common footsie on this latest set of Gang Zhou matches (see the first 13vs14 match). There are a number of setps off a blocked c.LK:
Much like the blocked LP Dragon technique shown in the Tomo vid, you can bait whiffed sweeps and punish them. Like walk in throw a c.LK, then walk back, if the player tries to sweep you it will whiff and you can walk back in and counter trip or thow (using the extended throw range of the whiffed move).
Anyway, there is a very nasty variation of this in the match I just mentioned. The player walks in, throws the c.LK but then he takes one step back and immediately jumps forwards, as the opponent whiffs wiith his counter sweep, he has widened and shortened his crossover box, and given you the perfect timing and range to land an easy superdepp crossover HK (combo into s.HPxxDP. Goodnight)

One great tip ,I got here at SRK, is using the Shoto HK Axe Kick as a tick. As an opponent is getting to his feet, stand rigt next to him and throw an early Axe Kick so that the first hit whiffs and the second makes contact meaty (this gives you extra threat of two hitbox durations), then walk forwards and throw. This is a surprisingly effective tactic.

I'm sure at some point we'll get onto THE sf2 matchup, Ryu ve Guile. There was a pretty heated argument on this forum before between members including Apoc (If I can find it I'll post it up again). Anyway, I remember that Apoc made a really interesting point about why Ryu has the advantage. He can counter all Guile's jumpins with c.mp that can then be canceled into fb to sustain pressure, (this negates the loss of initiative due to DP recovery time). This requires good timing and ranging but is a pretty awsome tactic in this matchup

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

TrueSephiroth

05-24-2006, 06:49 PM

Yep...*nods*:lovin: all of those reasons are why I loved Turbo Ryu, it seems that everyone seems to have forgotten how powerful of a tool that inv. hurricane kick was. Imo, Hyper Ryu was for me the best Ryu ever in all of the Street Fighter 2 series.

Great post Crayfish, hopefully more people will take this and try to learn these things about Hyper Ryu, man I love this thread.

GGL-steve

05-24-2006, 08:35 PM

heh, back when ryu was broke, ahh the memories.

I have a feeling the HF release could trigger some online leagues to take a serious look at fighters for the first time. Before you thrash online, it's online events that create lan events. And the interest I have seen has been massive.

evilj

05-24-2006, 09:15 PM

looking forward to guile vs ryu discussions. I don't understand everything about this matchup, but there's something about this matchup that never gets boring. I'd rather play a bunch of HF guile vs ryu matches than play cvs2/3s.

TrueSephiroth

05-24-2006, 10:06 PM

Hey guys, that video I sent to Preppy is up in his "zachd/mvc2 videos" thread, I hope you all enjoy it. Big thanks to him for taking the time to encode it!

Here's the direct link:

http://zachd.com/mvc2/#sf2

Bill thank you! I just noticed this post up, lol, this is some good shit! Dude...a mod should stickie this thread...there's just some gold mine stuff in this here thread!

eidrian

05-26-2006, 10:02 PM

Wow, that would be fantastc. Great new. Thanks Eidrian. Is it a stategy vid, combo focused of a bit of everythin like the Gamest one?

It's like a Gamest one, just from a different studio. I uploaded it to www.combovideos.com . It's on the main page, and no, you don't have to pay to download. It's on the free match videos sections.

Filename: sf2dash-ponycanyon-vhs.wmv
Original Filename: (ゲームリプレイ) 【ストリートファイターⅡ’】攻略ビデオ『～究極奥技編～』 [1h00m01s 320x240 WMV9].wmv
Size: 301 MB

Hope you all like it.

PS: Also, some comments please! :D

Crayfish

05-27-2006, 04:20 AM

It's like a Gamest one, just from a different studio. I uploaded it to www.combovideos.com . It's on the main page, and no, you don't have to pay to download. It's on the free match videos sections.

Filename: sf2dash-ponycanyon-vhs.wmv
Original Filename: (ゲームリプレイ) 【ストリートファイターⅡ’】攻略ビデオ『～究極奥技編～』 [1h00m01s 320x240 WMV9].wmv
Size: 301 MB

Hope you all like it.

PS: Also, some comments please! :D
Thats a fantastic video Eidrian, thanks alot for taking the time to upload it for us. I would say despite CPS1 chains not being yet discovred, the standard of stuff they show in the vid is higher than the Gamest one. I especialy loved the Gief-Dhalsim hold in the corner into 1hit dizzy headbut juggle, thats crazy!! The only thing is that this video is for Champion Edition, not Hyper Fighting, but lots of the stuff crosses over anywy. Btw that Boxer player in the tourney was excellent, that one match against Sim with all the 'jump back overhead' tricks and TAP ticks was amazing. I wonder how good that guy was with Hyper Fighting Boxer?!? Again, does anyone have the Hyper Fighting video they could post up too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Btw Eidrian, dont forget to post this up in the 'Korea SF2' thread, sure those guys will go crazy for this.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102064&highlight=korea

Thanks agin m8, great work :tup:

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Crayfish

05-27-2006, 05:43 AM

Lots of new info on the Xbox360 version:
http://uk.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/streetfighteriihyperfighting/news.html?sid=6151919

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

TaygetaVendetta

05-27-2006, 08:52 AM

Lots of new info on the Xbox360 version:
http://uk.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/streetfighteriihyperfighting/news.html?sid=6151919

Thanks for that. From the sound of the online game, the lag will be comparable to SFAE's play on Xbox1?

Whats the default speed of HF is for the Japanese version? The gameplay videos in that preview looked slow as hell, like they had it set as low as it would go.

And is it just me, or did it look like they had cleaned up or fastened Sagat's standing kick moves in that vid, they came out at the expected speed, but looked alot smoother. Guess its some of the cleanup work they mentioned doing to the game?

eidrian

05-27-2006, 10:35 AM

Again, does anyone have the Hyper Fighting video they could post up too:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Street-Fighter-II-2-Turbo-Video-Capcom-Pony-Canyon-Jp_W0QQitemZ3194104097QQcategoryZ1345QQssPageNameZ WD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Btw Eidrian, dont forget to post this up in the 'Korea SF2' thread, sure those guys will go crazy for this.
http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102064&highlight=korea

Thanks agin m8, great work :tup:

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Which HF video are you requesting? That ebay link is for the Pony Canyon VHS. If you point me in the right direction, i might be able to get it and upload it just like the other one.

Obot64.com

05-27-2006, 11:04 AM

Lots of new info on the Xbox360 version:
http://uk.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/streetfighteriihyperfighting/news.html?sid=6151919

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6 :looney:

Crayfish

05-27-2006, 11:15 AM

Which HF video are you requesting? That ebay link is for the Pony Canyon VHS. If you point me in the right direction, i might be able to get it and upload it just like the other one.
Yes that the one, its the Pony Canyon HF (Turbo) one. If its anywhere near as good as the Champion Edition one you just posted' it'll be great. I've just noticed how many videos Pony Canyon have done, its a shame they aren't as well know as Gamest. I noticed on e-bay one of SF1 too!!
woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6 :looney:
Yeah I hope the finished version isnt that slow. I dont think it will be, the video linked to in the first post looked correct speed, maybe just the footage was running at a slower speed.
Really looking fwd to your next tourney Obot, are you gonna continue covering HF?

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

eidrian

05-28-2006, 12:22 AM

Yes that the one, its the Pony Canyon HF (Turbo) one. If its anywhere near as good as the Champion Edition one you just posted' it'll be great. I've just noticed how many videos Pony Canyon have done, its a shame they aren't as well know as Gamest. I noticed on e-bay one of SF1 too!!

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Yeah, i have that as well. I'll try to post it soon and also that SF1 tape too. :P

GGL-steve

05-28-2006, 09:02 AM

woa the xbox 360 version looks hella slow! Under water fighting 2k6

Given that you can often change the speed of console fighters I'd withhold judgement till the final product arrives.

dogberry

05-28-2006, 09:48 PM

Guile vs. Ryu

Ryu has a clear advantage in this matchup. Probably 6-4 in Ryu's favour.

Guile is at a disadvantage because his setups with sonic boom aren't as effective against Ryu. Guile is no match for Ryu in an all-out firefight and he also can't pressure Ryu with the SB effectively (Ryu's hurricane kick).

Things that Guile can do at a distance are to draw Ryu into a fireball fight, hopefully getting him to start trying to overwhelm you with fireballs. What Guile is looking for is a careless FB that he can jump over for a RH kick while Ryu is in his fireball recovery.

If Guile has the lead, try to hang on to it and force Ryu to jump in. Your AAs here are low fierce, stand RH, trip guard low fwd, and low strong (if you anticipate a Ryu jump RH). Low strong will let Guile duck under the jump RH and u can throw them when they land.

If you have to get in close you should always try to stay just outside the range of Ryu's low RH. When you're fighting in close, you have to mixup your timing and patterns so it's harder for Ryu to react to your setups.

If Ryu ever throws a FB to nullify your boom in close, you can backhand him for free damage. Another good trick is if Ryu blocks your low forward, try backhand instead of sonic boom. If Ryu tried to FB to counter after blocking low fwd he'll eat the backhand. Mixup the timing of your attacks not only to keep Ryu guessing, but also to give you time to setup your attacks with sonic boom.

Never whiff low forward when playing footgames against Ryu. Good Ryus will sweep it on reaction and knock you down.

Khiempossible

05-29-2006, 12:03 AM

I actually recommend throwing booms and baiting the hurricane kick. If you know your spacing you can crouching fierce the kicks.

laugh

05-29-2006, 01:24 AM

Ryu has a hard time fighting Guile in CE/HF imo. Hurricane kicks only work so often against a good guile and you would have to take a leap of faith when you do those anti-boom hurricanes. When Guile starts to throw booms it's really hard to turn the table over, since if you jump at him, he can hit you in multiple ways, jump straight up and you eat a guaranteed low forward as you land or try to do a air hurricane kick on the way down but Guile recovers safely after the low forward attemp at landing. Jumping backwards ont in Ryu favor either. Blocking the boom is the best option here and I think the best strat for Ryu against Guile is to get a knock down somehow and then doing bunch of safe jump in -> walk up low short XX short hurricane/dp/throw mixups.

dogberry

05-29-2006, 06:24 AM

Callmeanewb: Yes, throwing booms and baiting the HK is a big part of it. Guile must be tricky tho. He has to mix up his follow-ups well (boom walk-in throw, boom, low fwd, boom, wait, low fierce HK etc). Not only can Ryu HK over careless sonic booms, but if he knows you're going to sit there and bait his HK out, he can simply do fierce FB to start pushing you out again, because the range where he can hit you for free with hurricane is also the range where you can't jump up over his fierce FB on reaction.

Khiempossible

05-29-2006, 09:37 AM

isn't baiting the fireball part of it too? you sonic boom wait if he HKs you crouching fierce, if he fireball cancels you backfist, if he jumps you anti air, if he does nothing you throw another one?

watson

05-29-2006, 10:06 AM

TrueSephiroth

05-29-2006, 10:18 AM

In CE imo Ryu vs Guile is more of a 5/5 battle, but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick, I would agree with dogberry that Ryu now has an advantage. Guile has a tough time getting in on Ryu when it comes to a well played fireball game, and the hurricane kick is very effective against Guile, because within the range of where Guile can shoot his sonicboom and backfist, he's prone to eating a hurricane kick, and even Guile can't recover in time before he gets hit. Imo, even trying to shoot a sonicboom slightly outside of sweep range is dangerous because Ryu can always stuff it with a hurricane kick, and the sure way of the hurricane not stuffing Guile is if, Ryu does the hurricane kick too late, allowing Guile to recover in time. This can add for some guessing games in Ryu's favor, imo, jumping in on your opponent is usually never a good idea, especially if they know how to space very well(For both Ryu and Guile, not just either one). Most Guile's I play rarely jump forward, but they walk towards me while jumping straight up to avoid fb's then they will try to stuff me in close if I try to shoot a fb with a c.mk if I'm within range.

This match I feel is within Ryu's favor, because Guile has to work more harder, while the Ryu if they know how to space well with his fb will be dishing out a relentless amount of chip damage, because Guile's sb game isn't quite as effective up against Ryu when compared to the other characters, the match imo will come down to who spaces better then the other, but Ryu has the advantage because he can beat Guile out in the fb department, and also has an answer to stuffing his sonicboom's.

Ultima

05-29-2006, 11:59 AM

> but in Hyper where Ryu has a better fireball, and a more priority hurricane kick,

I thought Ryu was exactly the same in HF as in CE. Just that, with HF's higher speed, it's now a lot harder to react when Ryu throws Fbs in your face.

And yeah, Ryu has the advantage in this fight. Guile simply cant keep up with a non-stop FB barrage. Even if Guile never gets hit, he loses to chip damage because he just can't advance without blocking something, and Ryu never has to let himself get hit by anything.

A more interesting fight IMO is Ken vs. Guile. I say that fight is 5-5. Ken has one weapon in that fight that Ryu doesn't: Ken's j.HP will stuff everyone of Guile's anti-air normals save perhaps for Guile's c.s.MP (which he should never be able to land cause Ken should never jump from that range). Aside from that, spacing Ken + a ton load of Fbs is just enough to keep Guile at bay. He doesn't have as "easy" a time keeping Guile out as Ryu does, but he can do it.

I'm a sucker for punishment. I only play Bison in HF.

Khiempossible

05-30-2006, 03:32 AM

the hurricane kick is very effective against Guile, because within the range of where Guile can shoot his sonicboom and backfist, he's prone to eating a hurricane kick,

Even walk forward backfist?

Bill Wood

05-30-2006, 08:12 AM

lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called "manager" screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.

mike

Agreed. It just doesn't get any better than HF. Maybe ST and 3S are technically better games (debatable), but to me HF represents the absolute pinnacle of SF2-mania, a time when competition was at an all-time high. I also prefer a much simpler game, a game without supers/air blocking/teching/parrying/what-have-you.

Here's another question for the experts out there; with all the discussion about relatively close 5-5 or 6-4 HF matchups (Ryu vs. Guile), are there any HF matchups where even the most skilled player has little or no chance of winning?

TrueSephiroth

05-30-2006, 12:38 PM

Even walk forward backfist?

It depends by what you mean, are you signifying using a sonic boom and then walking forward into backfist, or just simply walking forward and backfisting? If Guile tried to just walk forward and backfist, the hurricane kick will beat out Guile's backfist's almost all the time(invincible frame start up and priority), the worse would be a trade off, which Ryu would do more damage then recieving damage anyhow.

The only way I can really see the backfist connecting is if Ryu used a hadouken within close range to counter the sonicboom, this would allow Guile to backfist Ryu before he can recover.

A bad matchup if I recall in Hyper was Ryu vs E. Honda (memory is alittle hazy, I haven't played a really good E. Honda since like...95 lol) E. Honda's headbutt's are shutdown almost all the time by Ryu because of fb's. All you needed to do was have good spacing with your hadouken game, c.fk stuff's many of his jump in's if he tries to jump over your fireballs. If he's close, hurricane kick can get you to safety, E. Honda's only chance would be to get in close on a Ryu, which was difficult to do.

Another bad match up, and this one is against Ryu imo, is going up against Balrog in Hyper. I swear, the damn charge turn punch with it's invincibility, it made trying to space with fireballs almost impossible to do at times because Balrog would just fly right through your hadouken and smack you in the face, and he could walk forward while charging this up, which is why it was a very powerful tool up against Hyper Ryu, I would have to resort to other means like baiting Balrog into a turnpunch where I can stuff it with a lp shoryuken. I found this to be one of my most difficult matches in Hyper.

Crayfish

05-30-2006, 04:09 PM

Ok, here is part 6 (of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg3Grp A,B,C & D

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9N4W6DUQ

Yeah, i have that as well. I'll try to post it soon and also that SF1 tape too. :P
That would be fantastic eidrian. I never imagined such an amazing start to this thread. Tourney vids, the Tomo tape now the Pony Canyon tape, Truly great work to everyone involved. Thnks so much for your contribuions.
lol@tomo video. there is also a big story behind this too. lets just say his fucking so-called "manager" screwed me out of doing this. it was filmed in san diego for the most part. anyways, have fun to those trying to play this game. imo, this is the best version of SF ever made or played.

mike
A pivilige to have you take part Mike. Clearly very interested to hear 'anything' you have to say on the subject of HF, esp tactics and history.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Khiempossible

05-31-2006, 12:25 AM

The only way I can really see the backfist connecting is if Ryu used a hadouken within close range to counter the sonicboom, this would allow Guile to backfist Ryu before he can recover.

That would be it.

You sonic boom:

if Ryu HKs you crouching fierce
if Ryu cancels with fb you backfist
if Ryu jumps forward you anti air
if Ryu blocks (best option) you get spaced out and keep throwing SBs and FBs at each other til you get bored and one of you makes a mistake.

Crayfish

05-31-2006, 01:55 AM

That would be it.

You sonic boom:

if Ryu HKs you crouching fierce
if Ryu cancels with fb you backfist
if Ryu jumps forward you anti air
if Ryu blocks (best option) you get spaced out and keep throwing SBs and FBs at each other til you get bored and one of you makes a mistake.
Yeah the match gets really interesting here, Guile has an option for every situation if he can get the initiative behind a Boom. Just some other specialised offensive options not mentioned yet, if Ryu blocks the Boom:

1.) Walk in behind it and throw

2.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK, then take half a step back and press HK. Ryu will generaly try to sweep you, and you will cleanly counter with the upsidedown kick.

3.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu. Ryu will generaly block high as he knows you can air attack simutaneously. Dont throw an air attack, land and go straight into c.HK sweep.

*then you have the alternate options for each:

1a.) Walk in behind the boom, then quickly crouch and hit c.HK sweep.

2a.) Walk in behind it, when Ryu blocks follow it with a s.LK straight into a throw.

3a.) Follow behind the Boom and jump at Ryu, throw a simutaneous air attack (generaly MK) that will hit Ryu's low block.

3b.) Follow behind the Boom then when you get near, jump straight up. At the height of the jump hit HP. If Ryu tries to HK you will beat him clean.

So many options for Guile when he has the initative (which, unlike say Sagat against Ryu, is as much psychological as it is timing and positional advantage and thats what makes this match so good), the hard thing for Guile, is to engineer the initiative against Ryu's FB game.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Khiempossible

05-31-2006, 03:41 AM

honestly, at high level, this match should be 5:5 at worst. But like most things, it's largely skill dependent and a good ryu vs. a good guile can look like ryu has the upper hand.

I forgot to mention Ryu can go for the uppercut through the sonic boom. In which case Guile still gets his walk forward mixup options.

I can't recall but doesn't guile have a move forward option (b+MK or b+LK aka knee) that keeps his charge? The only problem with this option is that if Ryu is good he can throw a fireball forcing Guile to block, or gain the fireball initiative again.

The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars. Guile players need to learn the buffer technique for sonic booms (hold b f b +P allowing Guile to throw booms based on recovery instead of charge timing).

oh and props on the big trouble in little china shot. I love that movie.

Daz

05-31-2006, 08:00 AM

Nice thread Crayfish, off topic goodge street casino has refitted new buttons and sticks for ALL machines.

when you gonna do another session? give me some rough dates. if you do not know i am off for about 4 days week after next so i can do some AE and Turbo games and hopefuly bring Pulpasis plus another friend to my flat.

peace out!

Crayfish

05-31-2006, 08:39 AM

I forgot to mention Ryu can go for the uppercut through the sonic boom. In which case Guile still gets his walk forward mixup options. Yeah if you stuff the cyclone kick a couple of times and start to pressue Ryu a little, you generaly see more and more of this. Depending on cicumstances, you can either punnish with c.MK, throw or backfist etc.., but the best Guiles can Backdrop whiffed LP Dragons, such an awsome tactic. You can even Backdrop the cyclone kick but I think thats too risky to bother using.
I can't recall but doesn't guile have a move forward option (b+MK or b+LK aka knee) that keeps his charge? The only problem with this option is that if Ryu is good he can throw a fireball forcing Guile to block, or gain the fireball initiative again.
Yeah its the b+MK (b+LK in ST), you dont really get to use this much against Ryu coss of the threat of the Cyclone kick, but against Sagat its a main part of your game coss you are safer behnd the Boom and its the way you use to punish nulified close low Tigers while holding/gainng ground and mantaining charge. Great move.
The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars. Guile players need to learn the buffer technique for sonic booms (hold b f b +P allowing Guile to throw booms based on recovery instead of charge timing).
Yes deffo, here is Apoc's guide to 'Delayed Charging':

"Charge before you release the special. This is a relatively unknown charging technique. Here is a new motion for your charge attack: Charge back(or back and down), tap the stick forward, then tap it back, then press the button that corresponds with the special you are using and the speed you want it to be. This basically lets you charge ahead of time and lets you keep charges even when your opponent thinks that you can’t be charged. Ever do a sonic boom and then flashkicked your opponent when he jumped over? This is how you do it. You can’t do another sonic boom, sadly, because only one can be on the screen at once. But the whole concept is simple: precharge. This is crucial in using your specials to maintain position, range, pressure and even a mindgame here and there as well as making for some really cool combos involving 2 or 3 charge specials or incredibly difficult to time supercancels. This also helps balance out your overall game with the command character because you have your moves almost at will, when you need them. Couple this with the real charge motion and you’ll see how fast you can fire off to charge specials in a row or connect charge specials into charge supers in combos. In short, this helps to free you up in regards to special usage"
oh and props on the big trouble in little china shot. I love that movie. Yes abso classic:)
Nice thread Crayfish, off topic goodge street casino has refitted new buttons and sticks for ALL machines.
when you gonna do another session? give me some rough dates. if you do not know i am off for about 4 days week after next so i can do some AE and Turbo games and hopefuly bring Pulpasis plus another friend to my flat.
peace out! June and early July is tricky for me m8, just movng atm + lots of other stuff. I'll deffo get bak to you on this soon when I know where I am a little better. And I gotta finaly scan that SSF bok ;). Keep safe m8.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Ultima

05-31-2006, 09:00 AM

Here's another question for the experts out there; with all the discussion about relatively close 5-5 or 6-4 HF matchups (Ryu vs. Guile), are there any HF matchups where even the most skilled player has little or no chance of winning?

Blank vs. Vega
Zangief vs. M.Bison

Those two are 10-0 fights IMO.

Ryu vs. M.Bison and Sagat vs. M.Bison are pretty bad too.

TrueSephiroth

05-31-2006, 01:44 PM

The biggest thing for guile in this match is learning to compete in the FB wars.

This is why I feel that Guile will never have a 5-5 battle up against Ryu in Hyper. A 6-4 is not even that big of an advantage at all if you really think about it, the Guile player still has to work more harder than the Ryu player when these two are confronting one another, at high lvls, the matches do become more close, but that's how it is with almost all fighting games at the highest lvls of play. However it still doesn't change that Ryu has a slight advantage over Guile in Hyper, Guile has to be cautious with his sb game, Guile must get in close to deal damage otherwise he'll slowly get chipped damage, this plays within Ryu's favor, I'm not saying Ryu owns Guile, but it does lean slightly towards in Ryu's favor.

Oh yes Ultima, lol, I completely forgot about the Blanka vs. Vega match, lol, the good times.

Khiempossible

06-02-2006, 01:40 AM

This is why I feel that Guile will never have a 5-5 battle up against Ryu in Hyper. A 6-4 is not even that big of an advantage at all if you really think about it, the Guile player still has to work more harder than the Ryu player when these two are confronting one another, at high lvls, the matches do become more close, but that's how it is with almost all fighting games at the highest lvls of play.

Highest level play is the only way to do tiers. Yun would be bottom tier if you ranked him in a list where the skill level was below SA3 execution, or Urien without charge partitioning and unblockables, or Makoto without dizzy combo off SA2, or Dudley without OH links to corkscrew blow. You can't tier guile vs. ryu if guile doesn't know how to buffer SB properly and both theoretical players are equal at max skill level.

I also disagree with you on the second part. Matches only become even at highest level play when there are too many effective defensive options for each character.

Let's look at examples:

GG: FD, burst, IB, tech etc.
SC2: Step, GI and G2, jump
VF4etc: DTB-EG (or whatever the acronym is for double throw break evade guard option select)

These games at max skill level are actually pretty close to even. Lopsided matches like Dizzy vs. Potemkin aside.

SF2 is unique in that there are so many matches that even at highest level play are so lopsided that you can't got a chance in hell to win. Let's look at Blanka vs. Balrog.

No way in hell is an expert Blanka got a single chance against a good Balrog. Balrog counters everything Blanka has.

More examples:

Honda vs. Sagat.

This match is so lopsided if Honda knows what he's doing. Sagat has to be super risky in order to do anything. Honda should win clean 100% if he's got enough reaction to see low tigers coming from half screen.

Anyways, back onto topic. Does anyone have strats for Blanka vs. Sagat?

I get creamed in this matchup. I'm always jumping tigers and poorly analyzing my spacing such that I land on tiger uppers all the time. Do I have a move that trades with tiger upper?

How am I supposed to play this match up?

TrueSephiroth

06-02-2006, 04:00 AM

snip

I worded it wrong, so it's my fault, maybe I should've been more clear when I stated this so that you don't get the wrong idea. When I stated "More Equal at the Highest Lvl of Play" I'm not talking about "lopsided matches" like T4Jin vs. T4Kuma, or Shiek vs. Bowser, or MSP vs. Team Shoto(yes rather extreme on this one, and most likely won't ever happen, but it's just to get my point across). I stated this comment towards the Ryu vs. Guile matchup at the highest lvl of play, it does "get" more equal at the highest lvl of play, however it still doesn't change the mere fact that the Guile player has to work far more than the Ryu player in order to achieve the win.

Guile can't keep a solid zoning/spacing with his sb's without resorting to jumping up, jumping in, or taking the block, or you missed timed your jump and you got hit, because of Ryu's fb game, and this is already a problem because sb is one of Guile's key gem's to his tactics, sure, it's not completely nullified but it's not good either, and Guile will be forced to come in on Ryu or suffer a barrage of hadoukens, which goes into Ryu's favor. Given in comparison it's not as bad when Guile confronts someone like Vega (whom imo I feel has a fairly big advantage when pitted up against Guile), but Ryu can still make it difficult for Guile. So I will have to disagree with you, this matchup is not a 5-5 matchup, I agree with the 6-4 matchup in favor of Ryu. It leans towards Ryu, because as I stated earlier, Guile has to work more than Ryu ftw.

If I'm not mistaken and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Chunli technically supposed to have a slight advantage over Ken in 3S? Yet, Ken's can do fairly well up against Chunli's at the highest lvl of play, but it still doesn't change that Ken has to work more then Chunli to achieve the win. This is how I see the Ryu vs. Guile battle in Hyper, slightly in Ryu's favor, but not a lopsided guaranteed victory.

Also, funny how you should mentioned SC2, when even at the highest lvl of play, someone like Misturugi can spank Yunsung pretty badly.

Crayfish

06-02-2006, 04:18 AM

Please 'do not' take this thread in the engine coparison direction, however well inended the illustration is. If there is something that virtualy every thread on this board teaches its that this invariably leads to pointless arguments. Lets talk Hyper Fighting, if you think someones Hyper Fighting strat is wrong, dissprove it with a better Hyperfighting strat. The same goes for "Hyper Fighting is much better than X game, for X reasons" type comments, these only ever serve a negative purpose too.

*Soz for my tone, but these type of well meaning, seemingly benign comments and anlysis are the most malignant trend on the boards.

Yes high level is the only way to do tiers, and level bears no relationship to balance. Strats(even a single tactic) or Skill(execution, timing etc..) can either serve to balance or unbalance a matchup at any level.
Despite all this (too much) talk of lopsided matches in HF, on the whole its an extremely balanced game, as the wildly varying rankings and our continued enthusiasm for the game are testimony to. Again, pls lets not retread this partcular corpse laden path ...again.

Ok onto content:
Sagat vs Honda is pretty even imo, even that (still baffling) ultra pro Honda T.Akiba ranking has it 6-4 to Honda, all the others have Sagat winning. Honda can go over low Tigers, but Sagat has the high Tiger which still beats it. You can crounch under the high ones and gain ground, but then U've lost your charge and he can low Tiger again. Its all give and take (lke all the best matchups :). Its Sagat's ability to mix the heights and speeds that makes the choice of action just as risky for Honda as it does for Sagat. Plus he can reset many stuations by just spamming jump back HK.

Jump straight up, HK on the way down can beat TU clean, or make it whiff. And j.MP can beat it clean once its in the air. Keep up the normal ground pressure, trade c.HP/ c.HK with low Tigers, crouch under high Tigers then (if your close enough)whack his outstrched hands with s.MP. Blanka has an advantage that most charas dont against Sagat, he can dizzy hm with a full range jumpin against a low Tiger. The combo s simple j.HK, c.HP. Massive range.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Khiempossible

06-02-2006, 05:16 AM

How I play Honda vs. Sagat.

start of match. Headbutt. buffer back. This depends on the player. If the player blocks you've already won. If he blocks and punishes, keep turtling and bait a mistake. If he uppercuts, you might lose but turtle anyway, if you hit him, he has very little chance of winning.

After that hold d/b and just wait. You duck high tigers, so you only need to worry about low ones. As long as you're ahead on life his only option is to jump on you (risky).

If you're far away a good sagat will tiger upper your fierce headbutt, so you should only fierce headbutt from about half screen. Just watch for a low tiger -> headbutt -> sit on your charge repeat.

From max range you jab headbutt instead. Then sit on your charge.

Good sagats won't be playing tiger games with you. Instead they'll be trying to jump in on you and throw you.

At the right range, headbutt will work for anti air, otherwise you can try standing close fierce, but I don't bother against sagat's j.HK. I block and try to reverse a tick with squeeze throw -> HHP buffer charge and go back to turtling.

Perhaps I haven't played against any really good Sagat's but I can't see sagat having much of a chance in this match.

Crayfish

06-02-2006, 07:41 AM

How I play Honda vs. Sagat.
Very intrresting points. From what you say, the match seems dependant on who can get ahead first (like a few other Honda matchups).
Yes good Sagats will jump at you and try to throw, but they will always play firebal games too. The Tiger Shot grid is such a flexible tool it wll always come into play, even against Dhalsim. Its just so customizable and fast, your always going to at least block some.
You can't headbut at the start of every round obv, which gives Sagat the chance to take the iniative and since he can jump back safely at any time, I would think that he has an easier time transcending that half screen range (to where he can low Tiger and Uppercut on reaction) than Honda has maintaining it with a charge (where he can headbut low Tiger on reaction).

btw, all of the 2nd paragraph was concerning Blanka vs Sagat. Tho the tactic of ducking under high Tiger then whacking his outstreched arms with s.MP works for Honda too. J.HK should also be mentioned for Honda while were at it, that always comes into the match once Sagat starts throwing the high Tigers, that has really nice range and power for going over the top.

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

Crayfish

06-04-2006, 05:09 AM

Ok, here is (the final) part 7 (of 7) of the
'GANGZHOU 2003 HYPER FIGHTING TOURNAMENT':
GuangZhou HF3 Pg4Grp FINALS.rar

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0YMTIYCI

Another video on the x360 live version o HyperFighting posted up by jackboot3:
http://gamevideos.com/video/id/4041

Seems it will be released this month!!
I really like the online ranking filter option to show who is the best with each character, thats a really cool feature for the hardcore fans.

*EDIT. The page says release date is 28th June!

Crayfish. (http://www.wingkong.net/video/reflexes-high.avi)

GGL-steve

06-04-2006, 12:17 PM

For those who care IGN got their hands on a copy of the game for the xbox360. It's preproduction but it seemed fine till they moved out of their office network to play quarter matches at which point they got some lag.

javascript:popSizedWinProtected2('http://media.games.ign.com/articles/693/693580/dl_1533565.html','1533565',260,490,460,0)

Decoy

06-04-2006, 02:40 PM

No way in hell is an expert Blanka got a single chance against a good Balrog. Balrog counters everything Blanka has.

Anyways, back onto topic. Does anyone have strats for Blanka vs. Sagat?

I get creamed in this matchup. I'm always jumping tigers and poorly analyzing my spacing such that I land on tiger uppers all the time. Do I have a move that trades with tiger upper?

How am I supposed to play this match up?

I beg to differ. On the surface, it definately looks like a lost cause for Blanka in that matchup but there are things that Blanka can do to turn the tables in a hurry.

For example:

If Balrog does any rush punch.

Blanka's Options:

1. A well timed C. RH for a knockdown into a J. Horz Ball for a crossup meaty electricity.

2. Trade hits with a well timed surprise electricity then do the follow-up moves as above because Blanka's get-up speed is faster than anyone else in the game.

Blanka can also sneak-in Horz Ball into Throw. If there is one thing that Rog players like to do, it's counter after a Horz. Ball attack. You can pretty much pencil this to work at least once per round against Rog.

Since we're talking about Ball attacks into throws(bites), let's talk about something unique that Blanka has that gives him a great advantage when on the offensive.

Spacers

What are Spacers?

Spacers are blocked moves that position Blanka perfectly for a ball into throw attempt. They work best when setup with a C. Fierce or a C. RH at the end of a blocked attack string.

For example:

I jump-in with a standard J. FP, S. MP, C. RH. If you're like me, you charge at every opportunity. I have a charge ready after the C. RH and I go into a J. Ball atack into throw. It's almost free every time.

And let's not foget about the double-charge method. You can do Horz. Ball attacks right into Vert. Ball attacks seamlessly. This is great for closing the gap on someone who is across the screen and jumping in the corner. Or a surpise crossup with the ball hitting on the way down on the opposite side. Then the fun begins.

VS. Sagat

I walk him down till I'm just outside of his extended Fierce range. Then I like to do C. FP on the ground or jump straight up into FP for the bitch slap. This beats his Tiger uppercut clean.

I also do LK. Vert. Ball over low Tiger shots to bait him into taking a step forward to counter, then I land and do C. RH for a knockdown. After that, I use Blanka's getup speed to get-in on Sagat and finish him off.

Hope this helps.

~Decoy