MvC2 Guard Cancel Discussion

[aquarake]

After seeing this crazy video by Clockw0rk and friends, i feel that some of the tiers are shifted up again. For instance, i think this puts Cable up a bit at the same time, lowering Sentinel on the tier scale. Would this "newfound" discovery (i quote newfound because i swear i've seen it before) mix, match, chew up, vomit out, and just plain mess up the current tiering system?

i agree, but you have to keep in mind the new abilities it gives characters that were already cheap as hell, magneto launch you into fp throw, you tech hit...too bad.

I think this knocks sentinel down a little bit as well, i just can't imagine him without hsf chip but i'm already getting pretty good at escaping..

Cable is just too dirty and this just makes his match vs sentinel even worse lol, he also gets to escape spiral's rampage trapping on him{i'm not too sure this will do much for him anyways}.

This lessens spiral's effectiveness too cuz it looks like she only gets one rep of the trap.

Poor cyc vs sent:(

I wonder what other things this can be applied to..?

[Richter85]

Originally posted by aquarake
After seeing this crazy video by Clockw0rk and friends, i feel that some of the tiers are shifted up again. For instance, i think this puts Cable up a bit at the same time, lowering Sentinel on the tier scale. Would this "newfound" discovery (i quote newfound because i swear i've seen it before) mix, match, chew up, vomit out, and just plain mess up the current tiering system?



......What video?

[Saige]

http://media.shoryuken.com/mvc2/advanced_tactics/

That one.


And as for the question at hand, people will still pretty much do the same stuff as before. It's a case of 'whatever works for them'.

[color_wolf]

want to know how this is done exactly ???

[DeathFromAbove]

Originally posted by mixup
Cable is just too dirty and this just makes his match vs sentinel even worse lol, he also gets to escape spiral's rampage trapping on him{i'm not too sure this will do much for him anyways}.

I wonder what other things this can be applied to..?
I don't think I agree about this making Cable better except maybe against Spiral, but she is getting worse against everyone, not just Cable. He can already AHVB most long range attacks. But this pretty well destroys all his S.HP patterns even against bigger characters. Also potentially might mess up air Viper Beams, though I haven't done or seen that yet.

I think the biggest winner is Juggernaut, who can suddenly SJ out of lockdowns and Headcrush a whole bunch more stuff with the safety net of blocking first. Felicia gets a boost, as well as all the people with invincible start supers.

The tech-hit guardbreak is just nasty.

[FOBio]

can you explain it to me? not sure what you're talking about. what's the guard cancel/ tech hit guard break thing?

[Juggrknott]

Originally posted by DeathFromAbove

I think the biggest winner is Juggernaut, who can suddenly SJ out of lockdowns and Headcrush a whole bunch more stuff with the safety net of blocking first


Yay! :D

Maybe Hulk gets a slight boost as well, giving his "floating clap" even more significance/importance.

I think a lot of characters will benefit greatly. This also may be the thing that forever makes Storm the undisputed #1 character over Sent. But that's just conjecture on my part......

-Jugg

[Naslectronical]

I don't see this moving Cable up any, really. He could already AHVB Sentinel in the middle of HSF's if the player knows what he'd doing.

Cable still can't force anyone to make a mistake, regardless of this tactic. So IMO he should stay where he is.

On the other hand, it might actually hurt Cable a bit because as DeathFromAbove said, air viperbeams aren't as safe as before, because someone can pushblock, guard cancel, and then wavedash underneath him and combo him or snap in his assist.

And maybe it's even possible with AHVB's. If that's the case, then Cable's stock would plummet straight through the ground and into hell. That would take away Cable's ability to kill assists, because you could pushblock, wavedash under him, and combo him or snap in his assist. So if Cable aHVB's an assists, he'd either have to DHC, or die. This would be very useful if the battery character has died, and it's just Cable/Capcom or Cable/Cammy or Cable/Psy.

[Playboydojo]

Feh. I still love Sent. IMO he may lose a bit of chip, but he becomes damn near indominatble in the corner. Launch=garunteed death now. Sent/Storm may become a bit more popular, abusing hail to cover Sent's ass. Cable? TKAHVB just seems too fast for me. Do you really think it could be punished now? If so, yeah he'll plummet. 2 ?s....

How bad does this effect S/D? I really don't see that team taking a hit as they seem to do more crossups and rushdown than the actual trap. Will they're boosted momentum hold up?

What happens to Cyke now? Does he drop down to the second teir "use for aaa only" catagory again?

Okay so maybe I had 3 ?s. But this is off topic a bit: What was the GB Sent used after the tec hit? I saw the vid, but I don't have AOL anymore(and won't likely see it again for a while), and I've never used that GB myself.

[MIXXIAN 11]

THAT'S IT!!!

I'm only fighting newbz & AVG peeps from now on!!!!:( :( :( :(

Poor Sent:rolleyes:

[MIXXIAN 11]

BTW how exactly iz Guard Canceling done, I see the effect but I don't see how it worx exactly.

[ROC]

Do you notice how when your being hit by ex. Mega Optic Blast you can let go of the block and still be blocking? Well I think you have to do that.

So you Push block the first hit then put the stick in neutral then when the super is over Tiger Knee ect.

Might not be the best explination.:o

[Paranoia EviL]

i dont think guard cancelling is as big of deal as people are trying to make it,the timing is strict on this for punishing and overall its high risk and little pay off,how often do you see Cyke optic blast into super optic blast when its block,how is anybody gonna know when its coming if he does megaoptic blast are you just gonna pushblock every optic blast he does,or every laser sentinel does,there are only few uses for this in reality which are basically jumpin out of hsf and getting out when your assist is getting ahvbed otherwise its very impractical

[Juggrknott]

Originally posted by Paranoia EviL
[...]there are only few uses for this in reality which are basically jumpin out of hsf and getting out when your assist is getting ahvbed otherwise its very impractical

Eh.... this is kind of like saying Cable isn't so bad, just don't ever call any assists and you should be fine.

Or fighting Sent is no big whoop, he's just kinda tough/mobile, what's the big deal?


If there doesn't end up being any other use beyond what you described above, that's good 'n plenty. This amounts to a possible solution for effectively 50% of the real "top tier"; no small potatoes. Taking away those previously set-in-stone options strikes me as rather huge for Marvel and how it will be played in the future, but I could be wrong.

And this is assuming that GC usefulness begins and ends with Cable/Sent, which somehow I seroiusly doubt to be the case.

-Jugg

DFA,NAS.. i wonder what options people gain vs cable then using this?

[KaiSing]

I doubt Cyke drops anywhere from this. To counter MOB, it has to be something like a optic blastXX MOB. There has to be something to pushblock. I never use optic blastXXMOB at full screen because it never combos anyway. And for countering the SOB, couldn't cyke just aim it up and back down a little if they try guard canceling?

[Defective]

This stuff isn't that hard to do. Hell I did it against Blackheart twice in a real match and that's with no pratice (you should have seen the guy's face). If you can do shit like Magneto infinites then you'll probably have no problem with this. Once you get accustomed to playing naturally and using GC when needed you'll be able to see the usefulness of it.

As for actual applications of this technique, I think it will really help characters with teleports. If it was hard to trap them before it may be damn near impossible now. I can imagine M. Bison teleporting out of all kinds of things as his teleport has 1 frame start-up. Of course anybody who has a bit of invincibility on a beam super could reap the benefits.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

what is this about when cable is AHVB'ing your assist you pushblock and you can stop it? please go farther into this, get pissed if ya want, juss somebody answer this on how to do it?

[Geese Pants]

I can't seem to see the vid in question.
What codecs do I need to see it?

[aquarake]

Originally posted by Geese Pants
I can't seem to see the vid in question.
What codecs do I need to see it?
version 9 windows media player

Techhit guardbreaking - I dont think its as practical as everybody thinks. Take into consideration that if Sentinel tech hits mag's throw, he can just fryin pan at magneto with crazy range. Now the sentinel/CapCom is pretty evil because sentinel has pretty long range in the air.

And I said that sentinel is lowered because he's primarily a trap or keep away and he's pretty big. I think it will screw up a lot of sentinel's tactics

Time to relearn some low tiers

:)

[DeathFromAbove]

Originally posted by mixup
DFA,NAS.. i wonder what options people gain vs cable then using this?
I still gotta mess with this more. I moved recently, and this place is DEAD. The main thing that seems obvious is that big characters (can't duck under s.hp) will no longer have problems with traps like Cable/Storm-Y or Cable/Spiral-A. No more guessing games on taking the hit and hoping to get out. I'm gonna die laughing the first time I Headcrush Cable and Storm for trying that on Juggernaut. :D

Also, I'm pretty sure this won't let anybody jump out of assist killer AHVBs. Cable always aims the beam up, so you only block a small portion at the beginning, and again at the end.

[Naslectronical]

Originally posted by DeathFromAbove

I still gotta mess with this more. I moved recently, and this place is DEAD. The main thing that seems obvious is that big characters (can't duck under s.hp) will no longer have problems with traps like Cable/Storm-Y or Cable/Spiral-A. No more guessing games on taking the hit and hoping to get out. I'm gonna die laughing the first time I Headcrush Cable and Storm for trying that on Juggernaut. :D

Also, I'm pretty sure this won't let anybody jump out of assist killer AHVBs. Cable always aims the beam up, so you only block a small portion at the beginning, and again at the end.

Not jump out of it, but you don't think that say, Mag could pushblock the first or last bit of it, and then wavedash in for a combo or snap back?

And doesn't Cable have to aim the beam down at first to catch the assist?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[FecalPenance]

Originally posted by Naslectronical
I don't see this moving Cable up any, really. He could already AHVB Sentinel in the middle of HSF's if the player knows what he'd doing.

Cable still can't force anyone to make a mistake, regardless of this tactic. So IMO he should stay where he is.

On the other hand, it might actually hurt Cable a bit because as DeathFromAbove said, air viperbeams aren't as safe as before, because someone can pushblock, guard cancel, and then wavedash underneath him and combo him or snap in his assist.

And maybe it's even possible with AHVB's. If that's the case, then Cable's stock would plummet straight through the ground and into hell. That would take away Cable's ability to kill assists, because you could pushblock, wavedash under him, and combo him or snap in his assist. So if Cable aHVB's an assists, he'd either have to DHC, or die. This would be very useful if the battery character has died, and it's just Cable/Capcom or Cable/Cammy or Cable/Psy.

he could already ahvb in the middle of the hsf without being alphacountered in? using "guardcancel" you can only escape after the 2nd set of drones so you can't ahvb sent directly since he already recovered, but you take away sent's option of using some popular assists for extra meter/chip since he can't sj or continue the trap to save them....

air viperbeams aren't a major part of cable's trapping game, plus I think pushblocking would put you in longer stun than the beam itself...

regarding ahvb shadyk said "The block stun window timer STOPS when you start blocking rapid hits such as AHVB. Like if Cable were to call an assist and you PBed it and then he AHVBs, the pushblockstun timer would stop... thats why you can't just stop blocking in the middle of it (unless he waves it up and then waves it back down)."

[Naslectronical]

Originally posted by FecalPenance


he could already ahvb in the middle of the hsf without being alphacountered in? using "guardcancel" you can only escape after the 2nd set of drones so you can't ahvb sent directly since he already recovered, but you take away sent's option of using some popular assists for extra meter/chip since he can't sj or continue the trap to save them....



No, I meant if he's doing a trap like s. fierce + Spiral, Rocket Punch XX HSF, s. fierce + Spiral, Rocket Punch XX HSF

Cable can take the hit from the fierce and then AHVB Sent before the Rocket Punch hits.

[DarkZero]

So I am assuming that Guard Canceling hurts Stider/Doom? My favorite team is Strider/Doom and I would hate it if someone could get of the trap.

[Renegade]

No.

Strider/Doom is not affected by this at all. Pushblocking against that trap is just gonna get you all kinds of fucked up. Since you'll randomly stop blocking, you'll give strider more oppurtunity to hit you, instead of being kept in blockstun.

I think genghis said something about this in the headlines thread.

[Genghis]

Yes, GC may be somewhat overrated, but so is alot of other things. Marvel is about having a trick for every situation, some situation comes up more often than others. The fact of the matter is, while this alone may not win you any games, combining it with your arsenal may improve your gameplay.

It also has a psychological effect on the opponent much like roll cancelling. If your opponent knows your roll cancelling, he'll stop sticking out pokes to the point where you don't even have to roll cancel anymore. Same with this, I don't even try to chip Shady with Sentinel anymore because I know it's useless, so he doesn't even have to try to get out.

My 2 cents.

[MalignantMouse]

does this gc stuff affect the safeness of storm's hail storm? vs...cable for instance.

[Robyrt]

What really struck me about the video (other than the new, escapable HSF) was the tech hit -> guardbreak. It's not that much of a difference for most characters, but Magnus (who gets throws all the time) could use this to great effect.

[Sentinels Force]

Some people dont understand the usefullness of Guard Cancelling for one thing with sentinel the only trap that is really safe is sent/blackheart with sentinel anything else u will get fucked up if the opponent knows how to do it.No more Sentinel/Storm or Sentinel/Mag.And for cable basically any trap he has with the standing fp wont be as effective because u will be able to sj out of it.And cyke if u try to chip people with the super the small one u can pushblock it and get him and for the big super it wont be any good im guessing as a chipping tool no more cyclone kick to MOB i doubt that will work but im not sure because he recoevers faster in the air.But if u try it on the ground without an optic blast they can call an assist in ur face or sj out of the way.And spiral pretty much goes down.And u say it doesnt give cable more power u sure about that if u cant chip cable down u are gonna get caught the only chance sentinel has against that midget is if he messes up and if he doesn ur fucked and u cant start chipping him down with storm assist or magnetos assist only blackheart as far as i see.So it makes it even harder to get his ass unless u catch him slipping but that isnt gonna be easy just think about it and now with this tech hit guard break with cable man this pretty much fucks it up let him launch u and grab u and tech hit u will be fucked laterz.

[Nyc x Daniel]

I dont think it affects Cyclops that much, People around here dont use Cyclops's super on the ground, unless it combos.
You should always use Sob in the air,

The sprial players were greatly affected, all it means that u have to mix it up a bit more. Sprial still works on most characters, but cable is probably the only one able to punish Sprial from full screen.

Im kind of thinking on how this makes Doom worse, Can u now block the Air PhotonArray super, and be able to punish it now?
Cable might be able to PB(push block) and superjump and still nail him?

I think this kills a lot other characters that jump in and attack,
The most impressive thing in the video is when cable, storm jumped and attacked magus, and continued with the ground chain, and Mag just Comboed/ threw them.
All characters can jump in, and then follow by ground chain, if u can master this... Anyone that jumps in can now eat your combo.
CRAZY.
I think mvc2 is crazy now, u cant trap, u cant tech throws, u cant jump in,
WHAT DO U DO? rush down? run away?
So many choices..... :rolleyes:

[Renegade]

Originally posted by Nyc x Daniel
I dont think it affects Cyclops that much, People around here dont use Cyclops's super on the ground, unless it combos.
You should always use Sob in the air,

The sprial players were greatly affected, all it means that u have to mix it up a bit more. Sprial still works on most characters, but cable is probably the only one able to punish Sprial from full screen.

Im kind of thinking on how this makes Doom worse, Can u now block the Air PhotonArray super, and be able to punish it now?
Cable might be able to PB(push block) and superjump and still nail him?

I think this kills a lot other characters that jump in and attack,
The most impressive thing in the video is when cable, storm jumped and attacked magus, and continued with the ground chain, and Mag just Comboed/ threw them.
All characters can jump in, and then follow by ground chain, if u can master this... Anyone that jumps in can now eat your combo.
CRAZY.
I think mvc2 is crazy now, u cant trap, u cant tech throws, u cant jump in,
WHAT DO U DO? rush down? run away?
So many choices..... :rolleyes:


You always could punish a blocked APA with pushblocking. Since pushblocking keeps you at a certain jump height for a few moments after the pushblock, you don't fall... so you can punish doom. Cable is great at pushblock-> AHVB.

Pushblocking also allows storm to block Cable's gunshot, and then still go up into the air.

[Nemesis00]

Did anyone happen to put this vid on Kazaa? Cus I have WMP and it plays the music, but no animation. Just still shots like a slide show. And what sone is played through it?

[Naslectronical]

Originally posted by Nemesis00
Did anyone happen to put this vid on Kazaa? Cus I have WMP and it plays the music, but no animation. Just still shots like a slide show. And what sone is played through it?

Daft Punk-Aerodynamic

[ruin-]

Hhahah doesnt really change a god dam thing like tong told me that shit is "High risk low reward" but its a good thing to know and use but its not really gona take u from scrub to king

Anyways alot of those things on those vids took them alot more then one try to even get off

[Genghis]

Fuck you bitch, I told you that conversation would never leave the room. Don't make me take flight on your ass.

Just playing, or Am I?

Anyway, yeah it's high risk low reward if you have plenty of life, but if you want to save a character, then I guess its high reward. Everbody knows a pixel of Magneto, Storm, Sent or Cable can make a difference.

[ruin-]

leave me alone big G ;( your avatar is enuf to make me run

[Kapplow]

ah ha! dat was some funny shit!
but on a more serious note, on the tech hit guard break w/mag he does lp,lk,lp, then throw. But myself and others go right from the launcher into the throw, if they tech hit that, they end up alot higher above you than if you did it the way they did it in the video. which means you have to guard break them another way. any suggestions?