Israel vs. The (rest of the) Middle East

[Mark Beast]

i was waiting for someone else to make this thread like a week ago, but i guess i gotta do it...

anyone been paying attention to the whole israel vs. palestine thing? well now it seems like israel vs. palestine, lebanon, and potentially syria and iran.


BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah militants crossed into Israel on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers. Israel responded in southern Lebanon with warplanes, tanks and gunboats, and said seven of its soldiers had been killed in the violence. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called the soldiers' capture "an act of war," and his Cabinet prepared to approve more military action in Lebanon — a second front in the fight against Islamic militants by Israel, which already is waging an operation to free a captured soldier in the Gaza Strip.

source: http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict


DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops killed at least 12 Palestinians, including one policemen and two militants, in four separate incidents Wednesday in the central Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical officials said.

In the first attack, an Israeli tank fired on a car traveling in the central Gaza town of Deir al-Balah, killing two passengers and wounding a third. Islamic Jihad identified the two men as militants from the group.

Several hours later, Israeli ground troops opened fire on a group of Palestinians gathered near a flour mill, killing four and wounding several others. The army said troops opened fire on Palestinian gunmen planting explosives on a road used by the army to enter the central Gaza Strip.

Palestinian medical officials did not release the identities of the four dead Palestinians. They said their bodies were riddled with shrapnel and they appeared to have been killed in an explosion.

In a third incident, Palestinian security officials said an Israeli aircraft fired a missile into a police station in the central Gaza town of Khan Younis, killing one policemen and wounding two others. The army said it was checking the report.

On Wednesday evening, an Israeli airstrike killed five Palestinians, medical officials said. The army said it had targeted a group of gunmen.

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060712/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_attack_2;_ylt=AmLOkQcWxEBalyJNlTrRgnQ UvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[thurst]

no one in the middle east *really* wants war with israel, they're military is serious and they're quick to attack and they don't really give a shit about what htey look to the rest of the world cuz they know the US will at least partially back them regardless...

it seems more like israel vs. palestine & mercenary/extremists from other countries, cuz i seriously can't imagine lebanon or syria actually trying to fuck with israel, knowing full well that israel would have no qualms with completely fucking their shit up.

[Mark Beast]

i look at it like one on one, nobody wants israel. now, if they were to team up, israel doesn't want any part of them. at the end of the day, israel is an outsider in the middle east. they're getting their chin checked or whatever the expression is right now. it seems like ppl are trying to see just how tough israel is. i don't see israel fucking with lebanon x syria x iran x palestine. those guys are going to stick together. we're not in that much of a position to stick up for them at this point either. not with iran in that mix...
not to mention iraq is a quagmire at this point.

[thurst]

israel has the bomb...the other guys don't. israel's air force shits over whatever ancient soviet shit the rest of the middle east is working with. last time they all ganged up on israel, israel captured the gaza strip.

in terms of military might, the middle east is like a hs bball team, and isreal is lebron james.

[Naslectronical]

The arab nations in the middle east only think twice about war with Israel because its backed by the US.

As far as the last time goes, Egypt was beating Israel pretty badly during the Ramadan War, and would have most likely won had it not been for intervention by the US.

Israel's nukes are nothing more than a show of "we have them and you don't". Other than that, they're politically unusable and militarily irrelevant.

[FreddyL0c0]

shit is about to get fucked up for the phoenicians and co

[Mark Beast]

The arab nations in the middle east only think twice about war with Israel because its backed by the US.

As far as the last time goes, Egypt was beating Israel pretty badly during the Ramadan War, and would have most likely won had it not been for intervention by the US.

Israel's nukes are nothing more than a show of "we have them and you don't". Other than that, they're politically unusable and militarily irrelevant.
i agree 100%. israel isn't shit without the u.s. backing. the u.s. and the un is looking at this like craaaaap. the north korea situation is already looking bad, the iran situation looks bad, and now israel gets into it with lebanon which is backed by syria which is backed iran. good luck at getting support from the u.s. now.

anyway:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

[thurst]

the ramadan war was only necessary tho bcuz israeli soundly raped jordan/syria/egypt on 3 different fronts in the 6 day war.

take egypt out of the equation and you're left with the situation as it is today. israel basically is USA jr. in terms of their military capability, syria & lebanon would get soundly defeated and we'd have to deal with another 20 years of bitching to get territory they lost back.

[Serp's Attorney]

The arab nations in the middle east only think twice about war with Israel because its backed by the US.

As far as the last time goes, Egypt was beating Israel pretty badly during the Ramadan War, and would have most likely won had it not been for intervention by the US.

Israel's nukes are nothing more than a show of "we have them and you don't". Other than that, they're politically unusable and militarily irrelevant.

Yeah, but like it or not, the backing is there. It'd be great to see a true 1v1 war, but the US isn't about to let that happen, and at this point the lead Israel has is ridiculous. The US has been pumping trillions of dollars into Israel for the past 50 years, so their technology is actually probably better than even our own at this point. I don't understand why we're blowing all that money, we have our own problems to worry about and I don't see the return on our investment. I realize that originally Israel was created as a way to weaken the Arab nations, but at this point don't we have them all in our back pocket anyway? I doubt Egypt, Turkey or Saudi Arabia would defy the US, and we have a million military bases throughout those countries anyway. I think at this point, Israel is a much larger threat to us. Maybe that's why we trained Bin Laden in the first place I guess, to try and take out Israel. Oops.

[Mavric]

Isreal has a damn strong army and some of the best pilots in the world, I often think that those other countries in that region don't know what the fuck they are getting into toying with them. If the U.S. turned a blind eye I have no doubt that Israel would be nuking the shit out all their neighbors in minutes.

[ocelot_357]

Oh mother war, I sleep in your arms tonight
I'm burning, I'm burning for your love

[thurst]

snip

exactly

[Jion_Wansu]

i agree 100%. israel isn't shit without the u.s. backing. the u.s. and the un is looking at this like craaaaap. the north korea situation is already looking bad, the iran situation looks bad, and now israel gets into it with lebanon which is backed by syria which is backed iran. good luck at getting support from the u.s. now.

anyway:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/mideast_conflict

You forgot the India train bombing and shit.....Something's gonna give. Chaos, and Destructions!!! World War 4 Earth will be at war with it's self :rofl:

[FreddyL0c0]

yes, i see how thats amusing

[AHVB]

Fuck Israel

[Airthrow]

Fuck Israel? Fuck the rest of the middle east BUT Israel, and maybe UAE.

Where would you rather live, in a world of sensible Jews or under shariah as a dhimmi if you don't convert? Fuck 99% of the muslim world, their shit is indefensibly backwards and barbaric.

[Rioting Soul]

1% = Kuwait?

[Bowza]

Looks like they destroyed the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building now.

[regulate]

Yeah, I think theres no coming back from this. Its funny how this is all happening so close to the Iran deadline. First N.Korea with its dong stunt, then the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, and the the terrorist attacks in India, which Im almost willing to bet India goes to war with Pakistan about it. Sign of the times, or time for a change?

[Bowza]

The only thing with this is why did they have to go and attack the sole power plant in gaza causing problems for their water/eletricity? Only innocent people suffer from things like this.

[ocelot_357]

:lovin: WAR!

[dfoo]

Yeah, but like it or not, the backing is there. It'd be great to see a true 1v1 war, but the US isn't about to let that happen, and at this point the lead Israel has is ridiculous. The US has been pumping trillions of dollars into Israel for the past 50 years, so their technology is actually probably better than even our own at this point. I don't understand why we're blowing all that money, we have our own problems to worry about and I don't see the return on our investment. I realize that originally Israel was created as a way to weaken the Arab nations, but at this point don't we have them all in our back pocket anyway? I doubt Egypt, Turkey or Saudi Arabia would defy the US, and we have a million military bases throughout those countries anyway. I think at this point, Israel is a much larger threat to us. Maybe that's why we trained Bin Laden in the first place I guess, to try and take out Israel. Oops.

Better than our own? Laugh :rofl:

[DaDesiCanadian]

Oman ftw.

[AdverseSolutions]

lol interesting how this thread has turned into a tiering match. it's a good thing to keep in mind however that there are lives on the line here, and the israeli operations in the gaza strip have already inflicted significant civilian casulaties and damage to infrastructure that will take the palestinians years to repair. i am not taking sides here. the sick and pathetic regime of hamas is to blame for 5000 nail-filled missiles launched into israeli cities since the disengagement from gaza, which they made no efforts towards islamic jihad to stop. i'm certainly not shedding tears for their arrested legislators or dead operatives. it would be interesting if the israeli effort could unseat hezbollah from lebanon and cause syria to retreat, but i invite anyone to look up the history of the lebanon war. this was not a pretty event, tens of thousands died and ruined one of the most decent cosmopolitan bourgeois democracies in the middle east. the seige of beirut alone put an end to the 'paris of the middle east'.

but as this goes on, it's good to keep in perspective that just as we see hundreds of dead in india for the crime of being hindu 'infidels', that the movements of hezbollah, hamas, iran and syria, are by no means 'reactions' to the superior force of israel, the us and its allies, but instead local elites with their own, specific agenda and their own strategies for maintaining power. in other words, they have their own projects, which they are busily carrying out.

[AHVB]

Fuck War.

[Weeks]

You gotta admit, it's kinda weird how when bad things happen to US Soldiers a lot of times (ie the USS Cole) we really don't do much but empty posturing. Whereas when bad things happen to Israeli soldiers, people get fucking dead.

[Tekno Virus]

Israel is really RTSD with the Palestines...

haha, they were like "let's negotiate" the Israelites said "F*** you!!! give it up and get effed up!!!''

Israel ftw!!!

[AHVB]

"The detention of Hamas parliamentarians in the early hours of Thursday morning had been planned several weeks ago and received approval from Mazuz on Wednesday. "

[AdverseSolutions]

sometimes i add sources to my quotes

[The Iron Sheik]

It makes sense that Israelis would go apeshit whenever a soldier is kidnapped. That nation is based on a malitia. If the malitia disappears, the nation disappears, which is why every damn soldier holds alot of ground for them. They don't really give a shit about their civilians as much as they do for their soldiers...

[CrotchMonkey]

poor palestinians and lebanonese. :sad:

[AHVB]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/732528.html

:)

[Jion_Wansu]

It's unfortunate for the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians but their military can go to fucken hell!!!! It's their fault for not trying to throw out these radical terrorists. I really wish the fucken USA would do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA is just fucken around in Iraq and Afghanistan....when was 9/11??? Was it almost 5 years ago?


Fuck War.

Have you ever fought in your life? What about gang violence? What about Mafia shit?

[AHVB]

It's unfortunate for the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians but their military can go to fucken hell!!!! It's their fault for not trying to throw out these radical terrorists. I really wish the fucken USA would do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA is just fucken around in Iraq and Afghanistan....when was 9/11??? Was it almost 5 years ago?



Have you ever fought in your life? What about gang violence? What about Mafia shit?

Yes

[FistsofFury]

I can't believe this shit is over a couple of kidnapped soldiers.

They just wanted a reason man.

Question for all of you:

=How much of Israel's aggression will the United States condone? How far do you think Israel can go before the US says 'hey that's not cool, chill out'?

[thurst]

kidnapped soldiers is a pretty good fucking reason to go to war with another country. it's not as if israel is making the shit up or anything, the rest of the world can't justly be outraged at the israeli response. this is a clear case of them (lebanon) bringing shit on themselves.

let iran or some other country come here and kidnap some american soldiers and see how fast their country's entire infrastructure is reduced to nothingness.

[De4dEyE]

=How much of Israel's aggression will the United States condone? How far do you think Israel can go before the US says 'hey that's not cool, chill out'?


Judging from the past U.S. response to Israeli offensive actions... pretty god damn far.

[Bowza]

I really wish the fucken USA would do the same in Iraq and Afghanistan. The USA is just fucken around in Iraq and Afghanistan....when was 9/11??? Was it almost 5 years ago?




So you'd wish the US would blow up the power plants/infrastructure and government buildings in Iraq and Afghanistan? That just wouldn't make much sense.

[Mark Beast]

let iran or some other country come here and kidnap some american soldiers and see how fast their country's entire infrastructure is reduced to nothingness.
the iran hostage crisis, anyone? ...afaik, iran still exists...:wonder:

i think some of you are too quick to take the israeli's side. israel has a history of oppressing the palestinian ppl. really and truly, the country shouldn't even exist. how the fuck do you build a country in somebody else's area and move ppl from europe in there? why would you?? i gotta agree with ahvb, "fuck israel."

defend yourself with no outside help. i wish we'd stop riding israel's cock and let them conduct their racist policies on their own. we have our own problems.

[AdverseSolutions]

i suppose we can rely on the thickest people in this thread to interpret israel as a country that 'should not exist' when their own country was founded on the removal, genocide of the people living there before the colonists arrived. should the united states simply 'not exist' or might there be a better way of living with each other that does not include the crass negation of entire peoples?

[Mark Beast]

some ppl didn't ASK to be brought here. some ppl didn't ask for their culture to be ripped away from them. some ppl didn't ask to be put through slavery, jim crow, segregation, racism, etc. some ppl didn't ask for their mindsets to be broken to the point where they don't even have self worth.

and some ppl also don't agree how the united states was "founded." some ppl didn't ask for their "home" continent (home in quotes because hell, a good portion of us don't even know:

1. where we got our last names from
2. our roots past our great grandmother
3. shit, who can name all the countries in africa without google?
4. i'll paypal a person 20 dollars if they have been able to sucessfully trace their heritage back to a nation in africa

so yes, "home" continent) to be carved into nations to european likings. fuck. that. if shit wasn't fucked up over there and we weren't forced to "assimilate" into being slaves, meaning language, religion, culture was taken away from us, you think a lot of ppl would have stayed here?? shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.

you think those ppl don't think about their land ever day? if i set up shop in your house, it doesn't matter if its 10 years, 20 years, etc. you're gonna want me the fuck out. if i'm like oh, well, so and so from down the block told me that i could stay here. is that gonna fly with you?? would you not try shit to get me to leave? i'm with the palestinians on that one. i wouldn't want 40% of the land back or 80% or none of that. i want the whole fucking thing back. what if i took money out of your bank account and was like ok, lets make a deal. i'll give you back 65% of what you had and i'm keeping the rest. is that ok with you??

i think ppl look past A LOT of what israel does in that region and how they treat those ppl. do i agree with kidnapping soldiers? well...its wrong but at the same time i bet palestine and lebanon got heard. they have the world's attention now. ppl aren't afraid of israel like that anymore or the u.s. and its about time. they're going to get put in their place soon and so will we. there's only so much ppl are going to take before they team up against you. thats what we're seeing with this. it can't be a coincidence that lebanon, paletine have taken israeli troops hostage, the ultra violent attacks in iraq going on, almost kick starting a civil war and the bombings in india. oh, and the nk thing.

[AdverseSolutions]

you missed the point in a big way (and it's important that you do so that you won't concede what i'm saying).

there are israelis living in israel right now that had no input on the early irgun and stern gang (pre-IDF israeli militias) and how they evicted the palestinian population. do they deserve to be killed because they stand on ground where people were displaced?

what about their parents who fled the holocaust in europe and a situation that did not promise to improve after jewish pogroms broke out in (for example) poland in 1947 (two years AFTER the war)? people flee man, people get fucked. the point is not to sink to the pathetic level of the genocidaires who turn you or me into the country we live in just because we were born there, or just because of how our ancestors got there.

[Mark Beast]

you missed the point in a big way (and it's important that you do so that you won't concede what i'm saying).

there are israelis living in israel right now that had no input on the early irgun and stern gang (pre-IDF israeli militias) and how they evicted the palestinian population. do they deserve to be killed because they stand on ground where people were displaced?

what about their parents who fled the holocaust in europe and a situation that did not promise to improve after jewish pogroms broke out in (for example) poland in 1947 (two years AFTER the war)? people flee man, people get fucked. the point is not to sink to the pathetic level of the genocidaires who turn you or me into the country we live in just because we were born there, or just because of how our ancestors got there.
at the same time, instead of looking at ppl (not saying that you do, but our media here in the u.s. does) as barbarians and thugs and ppl with no morals, you have to sit there and question why they do what they do and try to understand it from their perspective.

its like, at one point in time this was palestinian land. this was arab land. now, some foreign countries are moving a group of ppl into your land and calling it their land. these ppl have the most powerful military in the middle east. so you once was living your life, etc. in your land, and now some "foreign" ppl came to your land and they dominate YOU!

lets reflect on this a bit. israel cut off palestine's electricity and water supply. wtf kind of shit is that? they don't and can't even control their own shit! thats insane! thats like the united states cutting off mexico and canada's water and electricity because of a disagreement or whatever. the fact that one nation can put another nation in the stone age, when that nation once controlled all of that land is mindboggling. lol palestine is a glorified DISTRICT. its like...its like if haiti became the sole country on hispaniola and called a neighborhood the dominican republic. the dr would go from a country to a neighborhood. its just mindboggling.

does a palestinian deserve to live the way they do because of the work of some foreign countries half way around the world, moving these ppl into their land? its a modern day england/spain going into the americas type of thing.

[Jion_Wansu]

at the same time, instead of looking at ppl (not saying that you do, but our media here in the u.s. does) as barbarians and thugs and ppl with no morals, you have to sit there and question why they do what they do and try to understand it from their perspective.

its like, at one point in time this was palestinian land. this was arab land. now, some foreign countries are moving a group of ppl into your land and calling it their land. these ppl have the most powerful military in the middle east. so you once was living your life, etc. in your land, and now some "foreign" ppl came to your land and they dominate YOU!

lets reflect on this a bit. israel cut off palestine's electricity and water supply. wtf kind of shit is that? they don't and can't even control their own shit! thats insane! thats like the united states cutting off mexico and canada's water and electricity because of a disagreement or whatever. the fact that one nation can put another nation in the stone age, when that nation once controlled all of that land is mindboggling. lol palestine is a glorified DISTRICT. its like...its like if haiti became the sole country on hispaniola and called a neighborhood the dominican republic. the dr would go from a country to a neighborhood. its just mindboggling.

does a palestinian deserve to live the way they do because of the work of some foreign countries half way around the world, moving these ppl into their land? its a modern day england/spain going into the americas type of thing.


That's like saying well, the USA should not exist because we took it away from the Native Americans, etc. Besides Israel was there before Palestine!!! Look at history about 2,500+ years ago!!

[Sears]

Can this point be made clearer. It's not their land. The origianal land owners surround them and they want it back. Plan and simple.

This whole situation is truely disgusting. If you take land from its orignal occupants and expect no retaliation of some sort you must be living in a dream world. It blows my mind the civillians can be blown to bits daily, have their houses bulldozered down, be picked up out the streets and get raped and murdered.

To me, the Israelies escaped a horrible genocide, and have begun their own.

I don't condone the actions taken from either side, but as you can probably tell by now I sipathize the palestinians who are just getting owned up on.


That's like saying well, the USA should not exist because we took it away from the Native Americans, etc. Besides Israel was there before Palestine!!! Look at history about 2,500+ years ago!!

Exactly. USA should not, and if the Native Americans had the technology back then to defend themselves, perhaps they could have prevented it. Today the current situations more interesting because this war won't be as easy as it was back then.

[supabeast]

...
To me, the Israelies escaped a horrible genocide, and have begun their own.

I don't condone the actions taken from either side, but as you can probably tell by now I sipathize the palestinians who are just getting owned up on.
...

I have some sympathy for the Palestinians, but at the same time, when Israel was established, the Arab regions of the Middle East were not run by Arabs, and many Arabs, Jews, and others in the region were living where they were, under the governments they were, only because that was where foreign powers had stuck them after the postwar (That's WWI for the history-impaired) dismantling of the Ottoman Empire. It's not like there was some shining civilization of Palestinian Muslims sitting around peacefully when a bunch of Jews showed up and kicked them out - it was a disparate collection of Jews, Arabs, and Christians, fighting for space and survival, united into groups along ethnic, religious and tribal lines, all under the rule of a foreigners who didn't really have a clue how to manage all those people they had conquered. So as they settled things up, and drew the borders for the states, Israel came into being. A hell of a lot of other people were displaced and otherwise screwed-over in those times - you just don't hear them bitching about it because they weren't displaced by Jews.

I would probably care a lot more about what happened to the Palestinians if so many of them weren't descending into the barbarity of Islamo-facist society. As violent and sometimes even genocidal as the Israelis are, they manage to survive in the Middle East as a democratic, pluralistic, and somewhat secular society. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have joined most of their Arab brethern and descended into angry, nativistic, homophobic, misogynistic demagogues. Most of the Arab regimes, along with the Iranians, make it quite clear that they want to see the world descend into a dark age of Shaira-based civilization that would make the middle ages in Europe seem like a great age of enlightenment. They have made themselves the enemies of all civilized people. Therefore, if the Israelis are willing to stand up against that, I believe that we should stand with them, up to, and including, the subjugation or outright elimination of all Islamo-facist societies.

[EvilKing]

Some thoughts -

Apparently Israel started bombing shit up up this morning. They've gotten the main Int. Airport, and some office buildings in Beirut. But the media is almost treating it like it's no big deal, it seems (at least the article I just read)

Also, why the fuck does it feel like you're racist as soon as you agree with one side or the other.

Why is an entire area of the world so fucked up? The craziest shit happens in that huge landmass from china and korea to the middle east, egypt, and down to ALL of fucking africa.

[AdverseSolutions]

lets reflect on this a bit. israel cut off palestine's electricity and water supply. wtf kind of shit is that? they don't and can't even control their own shit! thats insane! thats like the united states cutting off mexico and canada's water and electricity because of a disagreement or whatever. the fact that one nation can put another nation in the stone age, when that nation once controlled all of that land is mindboggling. lol palestine is a glorified DISTRICT. its like...its like if haiti became the sole country on hispaniola and called a neighborhood the dominican republic. the dr would go from a country to a neighborhood. its just mindboggling.


ok well now we're on a new topic. we've left the topic 'israel is a country that shouldn't exist', presumably you've retracted that? now we're on: 'is the occupation fair' 'was the oslo process fair'? obviously my answer to those questions is no. i don't have time to go into why or how right now (got work tomorrow), but i'll post up tomorrow.

[Sears]

I have some sympathy for the Palestinians, but at the same time, when Israel was established, the Arab regions of the Middle East were not run by Arabs, and many Arabs, Jews, and others in the region were living where they were, under the governments they were, only because that was where foreign powers had stuck them after the postwar (That's WWI for the history-impaired) dismantling of the Ottoman Empire. It's not like there was some shining civilization of Palestinian Muslims sitting around peacefully when a bunch of Jews showed up and kicked them out - it was a disparate collection of Jews, Arabs, and Christians, fighting for space and survival, united into groups along ethnic, religious and tribal lines, all under the rule of a foreigners who didn't really have a clue how to manage all those people they had conquered. So as they settled things up, and drew the borders for the states, Israel came into being. A hell of a lot of other people were displaced and otherwise screwed-over in those times - you just don't hear them bitching about it because they weren't displaced by Jews.

I would probably care a lot more about what happened to the Palestinians if so many of them weren't descending into the barbarity of Islamo-facist society. As violent and sometimes even genocidal as the Israelis are, they manage to survive in the Middle East as a democratic, pluralistic, and somewhat secular society. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have joined most of their Arab brethern and descended into angry, nativistic, homophobic, misogynistic demagogues. Most of the Arab regimes, along with the Iranians, make it quite clear that they want to see the world descend into a dark age of Shaira-based civilization that would make the middle ages in Europe seem like a great age of enlightenment. They have made themselves the enemies of all civilized people. Therefore, if the Israelis are willing to stand up against that, I believe that we should stand with them, up to, and including, the subjugation or outright elimination of all Islamo-facist societies.

Ok. The word genocidal and democratic should never be put in the same sentance ever. Just have to add that in.

What still stands is that again... it's not their land and people are pissed about it. It will always go back to this point.

Also, please provide numbers if your going to be generalizing the amount of Palestinians who are join "most" of the Arab regimes that are apparently trying to shit on civilization as we know it? I guess Arab nations leave math and science out of school and run naked through the streets screaming giberish.

What dictates who is civilized and who isn't? All nations obviously don't operate in the same way.

I really don't know where I'm going with this but it's obvious your condoning the death of people you claim to be barbaric even though the are being man-handled by barbarics. What the hell are they standing up for?! I can understand defending your home if you are being attacked, but if your taking (not directly),then defend it with such disgusting force, and finally go on the offensive and concider youself to be on a different level compared to those you are at war with? Complete insanity.

Both sides have their faults, but again I side with those who are wronged first, and are continually wrong.

If you try to take whats mine and then slap me in the face. Your going to get served.

[hold dat]

I can't believe this shit is over a couple of kidnapped soldiers.

They just wanted a reason man.

Question for all of you:

=How much of Israel's aggression will the United States condone? How far do you think Israel can go before the US says 'hey that's not cool, chill out'?


i honestly think the US will support any actions Isreal takes...behing closed doors of course.

In press conferences the US will say ok Isreal chill out now, but in those closed door meetings, Uncle Sam is telling Isreal to rush down any nation that harms them.

[Against Me!]

white people rule

edit: are jews white? cuz they rule too

[suleman]

IMost of the Arab regimes, along with the Iranians, make it quite clear that they want to see the world descend into a dark age of Shaira-based civilization that would make the middle ages in Europe seem like a great age of enlightenment.

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sciencehistory.htm
http://bahai-library.org/books/islamic.contributions.html

If it weren't for these crazy arabs, you'd still be in the dark ages. "Great age of enlightenment" my ass.

[AHVB]

Israeli ambassador confronted on Israeli Terror:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS2ESHKhBQY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbulletin%2Emyspace%2Ecom%2Findex %2Ecfm%3Ffuseaction%3Dbulletin%2Eread%26messageID% 3D1239276008%26MyToken%3Dc399e84e%2De87e%2D4817%2D 804

[Airthrow]

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sciencehistory.htm
http://bahai-library.org/books/islamic.contributions.html

If it weren't for these crazy arabs, you'd still be in the dark ages. "Great age of enlightenment" my ass.

Your reading comprehension ain't so good, he was calling the European Dark Ages the age of enlightenment sarcastically. Because the sharia ruled world would seem enlightened in comparison.

[suleman]

It's not being sarcastic if hes comparing.

[Airthrow]

You're dumb.

[Jion_Wansu]

The Muslim Extremists wanted to take over the world ever since the founding of Islam. Remember how they took over Spain and it took France and some Northerners to retake Spain in which were called a series of Crusades!! So who started it first?

[Serpent]

Power is everything. Morals are subjective and defined by the winners. Even if there is sympathy and a small subsection of the oppressing group realizes that in the objective what they're doing is "wrong", the majority can ignore that and in reality it's just empty talk that won't help anyone. Israel is obviously a mess, but, what can the weakling Palestinians do? Hell, even with other Arab nations, what can they do? Even if the majority of the world wanted something, it is meaningless if those in power oppose it. If Islam ever wants any respect, it needs to be strong enough to take it. It's not going to be able to do that anytime soon with the way the world is now (military technology is extremely expensive, and training is arduous and time consuming, and also impossible to conceal).

[Mark Beast]

they are supposed to take being oppressed?

[suleman]

Now that i have time for a complete thought... my initial post is valid even if it's just sarcasm. He thinks the dark ages are analogous to shrariah law - i simply pointed out that human kind excelled during times of shariah... nothing like the dark ages. So he is wrong in saying so.

This thread is about the recent conflict, not your qualms with islam and the rest of the islamic world. What israel has been doing is barbaric in a humanitarian sense.

great site that outlines everything:http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

You're suck, Jion.

edit: ahvb - nice clip.

Oh, and
Because the sharia ruled world would seem enlightened in comparison.

He was saying the dark ages seemed enlightened in comparison. Your reading comprehension "ain't" so good.

[supabeast]

Ok. The word genocidal and democratic should never be put in the same sentance ever. Just have to add that in.

...

Also, please provide numbers if your going to be generalizing the amount of Palestinians who are join "most" of the Arab regimes that are apparently trying to shit on civilization as we know it? I guess Arab nations leave math and science out of school and run naked through the streets screaming giberish.

What dictates who is civilized and who isn't? All nations obviously don't operate in the same way.

I really don't know where I'm going with this but it's obvious your condoning the death of people you claim to be barbaric even though the are being man-handled by barbarics. What the hell are they standing up for?! I can understand defending your home if you are being attacked, but if your taking (not directly),then defend it with such disgusting force, and finally go on the offensive and concider youself to be on a different level compared to those you are at war with? Complete insanity.

Both sides have their faults, but again I side with those who are wronged first, and are continually wrong.

If you try to take whats mine and then slap me in the face. Your going to get served.

There's no reason a regime cannot be both democratic and genocidal. The United States enacted a campaign of genocide against the Amercian Indians that lasted from the founding of the nation into the late twentieth century. Democracy is not a perfect thing, and it can easily involve itself with horrors like genocide.

You want numbers on the Palestinians who are joining up with most of the other evil Arab regimes out there? I could look a lot up, but instead of wasting time, I'll just point you at all the Palestineans who voted Hamas, a group of criminal sociopath, into power. If that isn't a stunning demonstration of overall Palestinian approval for hatred and violence I don't know what is.

As for what I'm standing for, honestly, I don't stand for either side. I wouldn't want to - they're both reprehensible regimes. But if it comes down to it, in the end I would rather see the Israelis win out, for at least their depraved means are an attempt at a better end, whereas the enemies of Israel - ie. almost every Arab or Islamic nation on earth - are generally in favor of corrupt, autocratic Islamo-facist regimes that represent a far greater danger to human civilization than Israel.

And what is civilization? It sure as hell isn't wrapping a woman in bombs, throwing a pile of robes on top, and sending to blow up the local shopping mall. And as for arabs and education, if you haven't been paying attention, the Islamo-facist regimes that dominate the middle-east have long dominated the educational structures within said nations, and converted many of them into nothing more than Islamic indoctrination systems. Why do you think so many middle-eastern doctors and engineers come to the US and Europe for their educations?

Regarding which side was wronged first, who are you to decide? This conflict goes back at least several milennia. Ethnic, religious, and tribal groups have been fighting over land and resources in the Middle East since the birth of human civilization! There is not an individual on Earth who can sift through the thousands of years of middle-east power struggles and decide who any of it really belongs to.

[NG1313]

What a load of nonsense.

[Mavric]

I can't believe this shit is over a couple of kidnapped soldiers.

They just wanted a reason man.

Question for all of you:

=How much of Israel's aggression will the United States condone? How far do you think Israel can go before the US says 'hey that's not cool, chill out'?


It's not just a couple of kidnapped soldiers thats causing this. There has been many kidnappings before in addition to other attacks from millitants and the like and I think Israel has basically picked this has the enough is enough point. I personally don't give a fuck who took whos land but at this point in time palistine is sure as fuck not going to get it back (especially with there glorious thriving economy) and they need to shut the fuck up and control their millitants. Israel is there and they really shouldn't have to take being attacked daily, like wise they shouldn't have to attack back daily but untill the fucking neighboring regions suck it up, give back all their prisoners and stop their hostilities Israel most likely will not do the same.

[Serp's Attorney]

What a load of nonsense.

Why is it okay on SRK to be racist against arabs and to hate a religion, but I can't even make correct statements on asians or jews without being exposed to ridiculous whining? I think Islam is frequently antiquated and barbaric, but it does have its good points and you can't simply condemn an entire race and faith of people like that. Actually, you can, but if I make observations on blacks or asians, as I said, you people would whine. I've long ago realized theres no point in defending any race, or being pro-any race, it's better to hate all of them equally, and understand that the vast amount of people of every race on this board, and in the world in general, are utterly useless garbage.

And while I'm mentioning this, I am fucking sick and tired of people not speaking english in this country. You fucking come here, then fucking learn the language so you can interact with people. I swear, fucking east asians...in San Diego there are a lot of them and none of them know english. Asians are the dumbest race, everyone else can come here and through intelligence do well, but asians can only talk about allegedly being smart, and have a small percentage do well and somehow think that makes the vast majority of idiots competent. So annoying. I think there are 5 or 6 asians in school, and pretty much all of them you know don't have the capability of ever becoming an even halfway decent lawyer. Thank god for them though I guess, somebody needs to lose cases, and somebody needs to go take up space in top law schools and then go and lose in the real world. I'm glad those somebodys are stupid asians, makes it easier for me and other smart people to do well.

[Lv.32 Z-Ism Rose]

The Muslim Extremists wanted to take over the world ever since the founding of Islam. Remember how they took over Spain and it took France and some Northerners to retake Spain in which were called a series of Crusades!! So who started it first?


Uhm, when was this? Last I recall, the muslims, called Moors in spain, pretty much ran Spain until they finally got kicked out sometime around 1492. As for the crusades, I thought all they did was try and capture the Holy land from the Muslims sometime in the middle ages.....

Besides, before we start calling the muslims "extremists" bent on taking over the world, we should also not forget to look at Christianity's very own Inquisition--anything that wasnt related to the church was considered heresy and destroyed. And, at this point, the church had as big a strangle hold on pre-Rennaisance society as the muslims do today. They pretty much controled all of Europe, as well was whatever territories the Europeans conquered. They did slaughter millions of natives in central and South America just to "convert" the heathen. They would still have it if it werent for people giving the church the big "Fuck You" to the church during the Rennaisance.....

[suleman]

Jion Wansu watches too much hannity & colmes.

[Bowza]

The Muslim Extremists wanted to take over the world ever since the founding of Islam. Remember how they took over Spain and it took France and some Northerners to retake Spain in which were called a series of Crusades!! So who started it first?

It wasn't called "Spain" when they got there, and If you would take a look at history, though, the Iberian peninsula, once under Muslim control was one of the most tolerant, and highly civilized societies at the time. Unlike when it was back in christian control, where a little thing called the Spanish Inquisition took place.

The event where it was taken back was not part of the crusades from what I recall, the crusades was more about Jeurusalem.



You want numbers on the Palestinians who are joining up with most of the other evil Arab regimes out there? I could look a lot up, but instead of wasting time, I'll just point you at all the Palestineans who voted Hamas, a group of criminal sociopath, into power. If that isn't a stunning demonstration of overall Palestinian approval for hatred and violence I don't know what is.

Well who else did the palestinians have to vote for? In their eyes, Hamas was the a good choice since they actually started up schools, hospitals, and seemed to have some kind of weaponry to actually resist the occupation.


Regarding which side was wronged first, who are you to decide? This conflict goes back at least several milennia. Ethnic, religious, and tribal groups have been fighting over land and resources in the Middle East since the birth of human civilization! There is not an individual on Earth who can sift through the thousands of years of middle-east power struggles and decide who any of it really belongs to.

I hate it when people start going back thousands of years about this situation. The point is, a lot of people who were displaced, they are still alive today.

This current situation I think is beacuse after Hamas was elected, most all of their aid was cut off by the US, Israel, and the EU. The government went broke, a large portion of palestinians are government workers, no one was getting paid for months, Israeli shells blow up on a beach and kill innocents. Eventually it led to the kidnap of that soldier.

[thurst]

the iran hostage crisis, anyone? ...afaik, iran still exists...:wonder:

jimmy carter != george w. bush

those hostages were taken while they were actually in iran, an embassy but still in iran. but anyways and more to the point, the iran hostage crisis is the reason why "we don't negotiate with terrorists" and the reason why if another country tried that shit today it'd be game fucking over for them.

yeah israel shouldn't exist and it's complete bullshit how it went down back in the WWI & WWII eras, but that still doesn't change the fact that for any of the arab nations to fuck with israel today is fucking stupid, ESPECIALLY in a way which gives israel the moral high ground and right to do whatever the fuck they want in retaliation.

lets say this shit turns into war, israel will win no doubt...but 10-15 years from now we'll be saying "damn lebanon really shouldn't have provoked them" more so than "israel attacked them just for the hell of it"

[AdverseSolutions]

kinda funny that so much is made of the israeli bombardment of the gaza power station when the sderot power station (that's in southern israel) was hit with rockets fired from gaza just a month or two ago stopping electricity for a day. sure, the act isn't proportionate, i think the israelis committed a real crime with bombing the gaza power station, but it shows how little an idiot like jon snow knows about the situation ("tiny rockets fired into israel compared to your sophisticated weapons"). those rockets are full of nails and sometimes poison. they're fired at public facilities, at schools full of children, at crowded streets and they have a powerful payload. why would islamic jihad/hamas bother firing them if they were 'weak and ineffectual'?

edit: in regards to hezbollah and lebanon: lebanon is in long-standing violation of un resolution 1559 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1559 which calls on the country to disband hezbollah.

[Bowza]

lets say this shit turns into war, israel will win no doubt...but 10-15 years from now we'll be saying "damn lebanon really shouldn't have provoked them" more so than "israel attacked them just for the hell of it"


Well the Lebanese government issued a statement that they were not aware of, and did not condone the Hezbollah kidnappings of the 2 soldiers, so they don't see a reason why they should be attacked. Of course, no one really cares what they say, even if its true.



edit: in regards to hezbollah and lebanon: lebanon is in long-standing violation of un resolution 1559 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1559 which calls on the country to disband hezbollah.

Isn't Israel also in violation of Un resolutions 242 and 446? One says that the settlements are illegal, and the other call for the withdrawal of Israel from the terroritories it possessed after the 6 day war.

[thurst]

:u: hezbollah is allowed to participate in the lebanese government, therefore they're an extension of the government. also the UN has been telling lebanon to get hezbollah under control for quite a while now.

you can't legitimize an extremist cell and then claim innocence when they engage in what they do. it'd be like us giving the KKK or some far right wing paramilitary group a couple of seats in the house and then saying we're not responsible when they declare a race war or whatever the fuck.


The Muslim Extremists wanted to take over the world ever since the founding of Islam. Remember how they took over Spain and it took France and some Northerners to retake Spain in which were called a series of Crusades!! So who started it first?

nevermind the fact that the crusaders were basically the pope's army making them both religious zealots, negating your point.

[Airthrow]

Well the Lebanese government issued a statement that they were not aware of, and did not condone the Hezbollah kidnappings of the 2 soldiers.

LOL. "Winkwink, nudge nudge, we totally don't (chuckle) condone... (heh) abucting Israelis and killing them guys. Seriously." (Round of high fives exchanged)-Lebanon

[Bowza]

LOL. "Winkwink, nudge nudge, we totally don't (chuckle) condone... (heh) abucting Israelis and killing them guys. Seriously." (Round of high fives exchanged)-Lebanon

I know where you're getting at, but realistically I really doubt the majority of the members in the Lebanese government wanted this to happen. But thats how this world is, right? A few people do some wrong and a lot more have to pay the price.

[suleman]

edit: in regards to hezbollah and lebanon: lebanon is in long-standing violation of un resolution 1559 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1559 which calls on the country to disband hezbollah.
Compared to the 65 u.n. resolutions aimed at israel...

Resolution 106: "...‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid"
Resolution 111: "...‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
Resolution 127: "...‘recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem"
Resolution 162: "...‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions"
Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria"
Resolution 228: "...‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
Resolution 237: "...‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
Resolution 248: "...‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
Resolution 250: "...‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
Resolution 251: "...‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
Resolution 252: "...‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
Resolution 256: "...‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation"
Resolution 259: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
Resolution 262: "...‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
Resolution 265: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
Resolution 267: "...‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
Resolution 271: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
Resolution 298: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 317: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"


(the rest are at http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html)

Edit: u.s. blocks new u.n. resolution today: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060713/pl_nm/mideast_un_gaza_dc

[Mark Beast]

well, israel thinks that iranians fired those rockets into haifa.
yeah, we're headed to another world war...

[De4dEyE]

well, israel thinks that iranians fired those rockets into haifa.
yeah, we're headed to another world war...

Where did you hear this from?

[Mark Beast]

the news. i forgot which station, but one of the major cable news networks (like cnn, fox, msnbc). i've been flipping channels all day. it seems like they all go on commercial break at the same time. i also am not trying to hear about bullshit schiavo stuff when ppl are dying halfway around the world and the start of what could be world war three is unfolding. thats why i'm going back and forth between channels on tv.

[ninjabastard]

Yeah, but like it or not, the backing is there. It'd be great to see a true 1v1 war, but the US isn't about to let that happen, and at this point the lead Israel has is ridiculous. The US has been pumping trillions of dollars into Israel for the past 50 years, so their technology is actually probably better than even our own at this point. I don't understand why we're blowing all that money, we have our own problems to worry about and I don't see the return on our investment. I realize that originally Israel was created as a way to weaken the Arab nations, but at this point don't we have them all in our back pocket anyway? I doubt Egypt, Turkey or Saudi Arabia would defy the US, and we have a million military bases throughout those countries anyway. I think at this point, Israel is a much larger threat to us. Maybe that's why we trained Bin Laden in the first place I guess, to try and take out Israel. Oops.
The money we give to Isreal is part of the 1st Camp David agreements after the Ramadan war - I think it was that one. Basically, Carter got Isreal to give back the lands it took in the war, which must be noted had lots of OIL, in return for the US giving financial aid. US also agreed to pay Eypt for having a US base. Because of this you don't see Eypt bitching so much about Isreal since they're getting paid.

[AHVB]

This is gonna get ugly.

If Israel continues this assault, you best BELIEVE that jihadists will flood into the area.

This should stop.

[{PFH}-Lake]

ww3 is coming bitchs

[AdverseSolutions]

american embassy staff ordered home from beirut. it's "i love the 80s" in beirut

[m121akuma]

I can't believe this shit is over a couple of kidnapped soldiers.

They just wanted a reason man.

Crossing a countries borders, kidnapping military troops, and taking them across the border is an act of war everywhere else in the world.

If Palistine wants to be an independant nation, then it should be prepared to be treated like one. If Pakistani troops entered India and kidnapped soldiers, nobody would bat an eye when India retaliated. Why do we make an exception here?

[Airthrow]

Because there are a lot of idiots who idolize Palestinians as some type of noble, peace loving freedom fighters under oppression or something, which they aren't.

[Jion_Wansu]

The problem is that new Hitler in Iran. Once we eliminate him and a more moderate person takes charge of Iran then we'll be better off. Iran wants to whipe Israel off the map. So what should Israel do? Stand there and let Iran, Palestine, and other countries flatten Israel? Hell no. Israel is like a caged animal backed into a corner right now. Or 1 person trying to fight out of 3 people jumping them.

Once Israel gets flattened do you think countries like Iran are gonna stop there? If you do think like that then you should vote for Hillary Clinton.

Edit: Oh shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Iranian president will attack Israel if Dumascas gets attacked!!!!!!!!!

[AHVB]

Speaking of acts of war:

Isnt killing The Palestinian Chief Of Police an act of war? Isnt Shelling a beach full of innocent people an act of war? Isnt firing rockets at large crowds to kill one man an act of war? Isnt turning off the electrical and water supply an act of war?

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/gazainvade1.jpg

This is ridiculous. The international community should step in and stop this non-sense.

With regards to the "wite israel off the map" that was proven to be a lie.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/02/20/iran_denies_wanting_to_wipe_israel_off_the_map/?rss_id=Boston.com+/+News

DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE. The guy was misquoted.

And what the fuck are you talking about? Hillary Clinton is pro-war. She wants war with iran just like she wanted and contines to want war with iraq.

[m121akuma]

With regards to the "wite israel off the map" that was proven to be a lie.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2006/02/20/iran_denies_wanting_to_wipe_israel_off_the_map/?rss_id=Boston.com+/+News

DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE. The guy was misquoted.


Of course they're going to deny saying it after the fact. Shit like that is too controvercial for Iran in their current position.

On the other link, got a more reputable source for all of that? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just tend not to trust sites called "whatreallyhappened.com" or "imtheonlyonewhoknowsthetruth.com" or "trustmeimreallyanexpert.com".

[AHVB]

Of course they're going to deny saying it after the fact. Shit like that is too controvercial for Iran in their current position.

On the other link, got a more reputable source for all of that? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just tend not to trust sites called "whatreallyhappened.com" or "imtheonlyonewhoknowsthetruth.com" or "trustmeimreallyanexpert.com".


Did you even see the link? It was just a picture you stupid motherfucker.

Why the hell do i need to source what I said in the 1st paragraph. It's a FACT that what I said happened, if you believe otherwise then you're a complete moron.

[xcfrisco]

It's really not a matter of who's side are you on. Who cares? If you're not willing to do anything about it, complaining is really hypocritical. Yeah it sucks that kids in Africa are dying every day, while I throw away a half-eaten cheeseburger. But am I compaining? No. You know why? Because as much as I think people around the world dying because of hunger sucks, I'm not doing anything to remedy the matter.

Complain all you want, but unless you guys are actually DOING something about it, how can you criticize? Posting on internet forums about how much something sucks or doesn't suck is going to get nowhere. Start a rally, plan an event, write to your local congressman, etc.

And to everyone who actually goes outside their homes and puts forth effort for a cause, I applaud you. And to joe-blow who stays at home, eats cheetos, and sees something on the news that he gets mad about, only to go on the internet to share his feelings, which is as far as his "care" for the issue will ever take him. :rolleyes:

This isn't a specific attack on anybody, just something to think about for all you lazies (like me).

[Bowza]

Because there are a lot of idiots who idolize Palestinians as some type of noble, peace loving freedom fighters under oppression or something, which they aren't.

They are under oppression, but of course, not everything is black and white. There are a lot of Palestinians who aren't of the mindset of peace. But the basic case is, a lot more of their people are suffering/died because of these conflicts.

[m121akuma]

Did you even see the link? It was just a picture you stupid motherfucker.


*looks at file type*

So it is. Oh well, I must need sleep then. A thousand apologies, good sir.

[Bowza]

Crossing a countries borders, kidnapping military troops, and taking them across the border is an act of war everywhere else in the world.

If Palistine wants to be an independant nation, then it should be prepared to be treated like one. If Pakistani troops entered India and kidnapped soldiers, nobody would bat an eye when India retaliated. Why do we make an exception here?

Things don't really work that way all the time. This year, the CIA conducted an airstrike on Pakistani soil that hit a village and killed numerous civilians. Isn't that supposed to be an act of war? But nothing happened after that.

[AHVB]

*looks at file type*

So it is. Oh well, I must need sleep then. A thousand apologies, good sir.

:lovin:

[Se7en Hits]

Well...let's just hope for the best, I guess. Humanity sucks.

[Vanilla]

I hate even thinking about this but...a map of projected alliances should WW3 occur.

In WW2 terms
Blue='Allies'
Red="Axis'
Green=Neutral
Yellow='Invested intrest' (Neutral until you fuck with something important to them)

[CrotchMonkey]

The problem is that new Hitler in Iran. Once we eliminate him and a more moderate person takes charge of Iran then we'll be better off. Iran wants to whipe Israel off the map. So what should Israel do? Stand there and let Iran, Palestine, and other countries flatten Israel? Hell no. Israel is like a caged animal backed into a corner right now. Or 1 person trying to fight out of 3 people jumping them.

Once Israel gets flattened do you think countries like Iran are gonna stop there? If you do think like that then you should vote for Hillary Clinton.

Edit: Oh shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Iranian president will attack Israel if Dumascas gets attacked!!!!!!!!!
new hitler? once we eliminate him? LOLOLOLOL :looney:

[ninjabastard]

They are under oppression, but of course, not everything is black and white. There are a lot of Palestinians who aren't of the mindset of peace. But the basic case is, a lot more of their people are suffering/died because of these conflicts.
You do know most of the current problems steam from Hamas being elected and not renoucing violence against Isreal?

[FistsofFury]

Crossing a countries borders, kidnapping military troops, and taking them across the border is an act of war everywhere else in the world.



Ah, see I thought it was soldiers already in Lebannon somehow that were just captured. All that border crossing I must have missed.

:party:



You do know most of the current problems steam from Hamas being elected and not renoucing violence against Isreal?

But when has Hamas ever renouced violence against Israel? So they were in a parliment election with the planks of their platform clear, and won. And after they win then people are clamoring for them to renounce violence, when they seem to never have done.

On one hand it is fair because now Hamas is more legit and official, they are a part of the government and parts of the government shouldn't be clamoring for the destruction of another nation. But on the other hand..they were elected based partly on their stance toward Israel. How can you expect them to change?

If I'm wrong or don't know the history..feel free to school me. Seriously.

[AdverseSolutions]

ahvb, misquote? you'll fall for anything.

“Today there is a strong will... to remove the Zionist regime and implement a legal Palestinian regime all over Palestine. The continued survival of this regime (Israel) means nothing but suffering for the region,” Ahmadinejad said. “The biggest threat today for the region is the existence of the fake Zionist regime,” he added, before going on to attack Israel’s supporters.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08072006/323/iran-s-ahmadinejad-calls-removal-zionist-regime.html

he has spoken in this way many many times. the message is clear and if you believe otherwise it's because you want to.

fists, you have mentioned the two kidnapped soldiers in the north, but you haven't meantioned the three other soldiers killed in Hezbollah's attacks. any other state on earth would reply to these attacks with overwhelming violence, so don't be surprised when the israeli state does the same. the example of the cia massacre in pakistan is well-cited but we're dealing with a different environment. the armed efforts of the cia in pakistan against al-queda serve musharrif's interests because al-queda is a destabilizing force in his dictatorship. the peace on the northern border of israel has always been shaky, and there has never been any question that hezbollah is fundamentally opposed to israeli existence. as the idf continues its assault, besides the damage to civilian infrastructure, hezbollah has already had much of the armaments of its southern positions devastated, and the conspiratorial/fundamentalist al-manar television station has been bombed. two small accomplishments in a creek of blood. in the meantime 60 israelis are injured in rocket assaults on northern israel and two are killed.

i have no interest in justifying the israeli army's offensive, i think that this places israel in a much more precarious position than it needs to be in. the war crimes in gaza and beirut already point to the inability of the idf to break with the sick practice of collective punishment. but if lebanon and palestine will not fight their own 'oppressors' i.e. the ruling gangs which enforce sharia law and perpetuate the shahid (martyr) system, then israel will gladly take that role for itself. fight back lebanon, fight back palestine. the enemy is your own government.

[ninjabastard]

But when has Hamas ever renouced violence against Israel? So they were in a parliment election with the planks of their platform clear, and won. And after they win then people are clamoring for them to renounce violence, when they seem to never have done.

On one hand it is fair because now Hamas is more legit and official, they are a part of the government and parts of the government shouldn't be clamoring for the destruction of another nation. But on the other hand..they were elected based partly on their stance toward Israel. How can you expect them to change?

If I'm wrong or don't know the history..feel free to school me. Seriously.

Just because the people elected hamas doesn't mean it was a smart choice. Frankly I don't care if hamas' domestic platform was kill isreal. Hamas had the choice of being pragmatic or ideologically pure. They have the soveriegn right to make it a state policy to destory Isreal, which they did. However, the rest of the world also has a right to be pissed off by that shit and cut off their funding. The problems occuring now largely steam from lack of funding that created discontent and weaked the government enough for the fatwah supportors to start a civil war. And, from their I'm kind of hazy. I think Isreal stepped in during the violence, and either the fatwah or Isreal took the hamas prime minister. And it kind of spiraled from there. If anyone wants to clarify im cool.

[AdverseSolutions]

ninja man you need to get your arabic terms right. fatah=the historic leadership of the palestinian national liberation movement, aka arafat's party, corrupt gang whatever you want to call it
fatwah=religious edict issued by an imam that justifies such and such by islam's blessing

[AHVB]

ahvb, misquote? you'll fall for anything.

“Today there is a strong will... to remove the Zionist regime and implement a legal Palestinian regime all over Palestine. The continued survival of this regime (Israel) means nothing but suffering for the region,” Ahmadinejad said. “The biggest threat today for the region is the existence of the fake Zionist regime,” he added, before going on to attack Israel’s supporters.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08072006/323/iran-s-ahmadinejad-calls-removal-zionist-regime.html


Does It Say "Wipe Israel Off The Map?" Nah.

We need to change the regime over here, does that mean that I want to Wipe the U.S. off the map? No. Go away you hate monger.

[supabeast]

Charles Krauthammer's column for today does an excellent job of dispelling the arab myth that this conflict is about, or is rooted in, the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. I recommend everyone interested take a look:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2006/07/14/who_is_at_fault

Also, on a related note, anyone interested in Israel or Middle East politics should take a look at Alan Dershowitz's new compilation of essays about Israel, What Israel Means to Me (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471679003/sr=8-1/qid=1152886457/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2774869-5910260?ie=UTF8). I've been reading it over the last week, and it's very interesting - the essays are by people from all walks of life - Bill Bennet, Barney Frank, Larry King, and Natalie Portman, to name a frew - and explore the issues surrounding Israel from many points of view. It's especially interesting to read the essays by Israelis, many of whom are quite sick and tired of the way their government has dealt with the situation over the last several decades.

[Mavric]

Charles Krauthammer's column for today does an excellent job of dispelling the arab myth that this conflict is about, or is rooted in, the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands. I recommend everyone interested take a look:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/CharlesKrauthammer/2006/07/14/who_is_at_fault


Good column thanks for sharing.

[Bowza]

Just because the people elected hamas doesn't mean it was a smart choice. Frankly I don't care if hamas' domestic platform was kill isreal. Hamas had the choice of being pragmatic or ideologically pure. They have the soveriegn right to make it a state policy to destory Isreal, which they did. However, the rest of the world also has a right to be pissed off by that shit and cut off their funding. The problems occuring now largely steam from lack of funding that created discontent and weaked the government enough for the fatwah supportors to start a civil war. And, from their I'm kind of hazy. I think Isreal stepped in during the violence, and either the fatwah or Isreal took the hamas prime minister. And it kind of spiraled from there. If anyone wants to clarify im cool.

Actually, after the Israeli shellings of the beach, Hamas and Fatah stopped their own problems and were actually to reach an agreement on recognizing Israel. But then some soldier got kidnapped, and shit hit the fan.

[Bowza]

I hate even thinking about this but...a map of projected alliances should WW3 occur.

In WW2 terms
Blue='Allies'
Red="Axis'
Green=Neutral
Yellow='Invested intrest' (Neutral until you fuck with something important to them)



Man that shit isn't gonna happen. The worst that could happen is that Israel attacks Syria, so Iran attacks Israel, and then maybe the US supports Israel. It won't go any further than that. You gotta be outta your mind if you think the countries like Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, or the UAE will join in on this right now. Trust me, a lot of muslim countries may denounce Israeli's policies, but they will absolutely not step in and do anything about it.

Most of the countries rather stay on the good side of the U.S., and will remain neutral should anything happen.

Even if it did happen, it wouldn't be much of a World war, all those countries you termed as Axis, their military might is insigificant.

[Mark Beast]

well i agree it wouldn't necessarily be a world war because its basically a bunch of countries in the same region, but i do think that their military is a lot more powerful than a lot of ppl think. i don't think lebanon will just lie down and take the bombing of their capital too much longer. somebody somewhere is going to step in and help them out. also, where are the palestinian suicide bombers that were bombing the hell out of the israelis? i see it like:

israel continues their offensive against lebanon/palestine
palestinians start a suicide bomb "campaign"
syria and iran get involved militarily, whether it means ground troops or lobbing missiles/warplanes at israel
u.s. staying out of it because we have our own problems with iraq and the shit is just begging for a true world war.

israel might get funded by the u.s. but we aren't going in there for anything more than rescuing our 25,000 citizens we have over in lebanon. add to that that al qaeda will have something to say about this at some point.

i also think that they don't really want it with iran (israel being the they) because it could get nuclear. i hope that no one really wants to see a nuclear war. i'm not sure it will go that far. if it did the world would step in.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_eu/g8_bush
^^check that out. i find it funny how the president won't make military decisions for israel, but he'll do it for an arab or persian nation in a heartbeat. he does so much by doing nothing at all...
i think we should prepare for more terrorists attacks on u.s. soil.

[AHVB]

I hope we stay out. The lebanese contacted president bush urging him to tell Irsrael to cease the attacks. Our president just refused.

This is ridiculous, why isnt anyone doing anything about this?

What the fuck is this? THey're bombing airports and bridges for gods sake. How the fuck can anyone justify this?

[thurst]

while that book might be an interesting read, i don't take the hollywood jews' opinions about israel that seriously.

personally i don't think we should tell israel to cease fire, the arab world thinks we're too involved over there as it is so let's see what happens when we let them work out their own shit.

[Mark Beast]

personally i don't think we should tell israel to cease fire, the arab world thinks we're too involved over there as it is so let's see what happens when we let them work out their own shit.
but by not calling for one, we're siding with israel. its bullshit. we love to get in arab affairs, but when it comes to calling israel out we get REAL quiet.

i know i'ma get flamed for this, but i hope israel gets put in its place. and i'm sick of fox news and their PUPPETS of the bush administration. i'm sick of keith oberman (sp?) joking about useless shit, and i'm sick of commercials coming on at the same time for all 3 channels. i'm sick of hearing about fucking wildfires, schiavo, paris hilton not having sex for a year and other BULLSHIT when a real crisis is going on. niggas are dying out there and the media is covering bush's crush on the german chancellor and paris hilton closing her legs for a year. wtf kind of country do we live in?

/end rant.

[AHVB]

but by not calling for one, we're siding with israel. its bullshit. we love to get in arab affairs, but when it comes to calling israel out we get REAL quiet.

i know i'ma get flamed for this, but i hope israel gets put in its place. and i'm sick of fox news and their PUPPETS of the bush administration. i'm sick of keith oberman (sp?) joking about useless shit, and i'm sick of commercials coming on at the same time for all 3 channels. i'm sick of hearing about fucking wildfires, schiavo, paris hilton not having sex for a year and other BULLSHIT when a real crisis is going on. niggas are dying out there and the media is covering bush's crush on the german chancellor and paris hilton closing her legs for a year. wtf kind of country do we live in?

/end rant.

The Good Ol' US of A.


"But the president will make military decisions for every other country. Bush demands that Russia not support Iran. He demands that China not dupport Iran. He demands that North Korea not do any nuclear testing. He demands that Iran stop all nuclear production. He demands that the Palestinians stop attacking Israel. He demands that no one has the right to boycott Israel or say anything negative about Israel."

Hell yeah Israel should cease-fire. Imagine if lebanin were your country with people that you love living in it. Would you simply say "don't let them cease fire" There are innocent people there who are getting bombed to hell and being made to be trapped in there. This is fucking ridiculous.

[thurst]

the arabs really think they can take israel out, they think the only reason they lost the 6 days war and shit was bcuz the US & british secretly helped...they need the hard truth given to them, and that is israel will fuck their shit up unless the rest of the world asks keeps them on a tight fucking leash. thats why i thnk we shouldn't force israel to cease fire, i think everyone should just follow the standard, "it's a tragedy what's going on over there" script and let them fight it out. this is "tough love" on a grand scale, maybe after this everyone over there will start acting right, i doubt it, but still.

[Dan?]

...maybe after this everyone over there will start acting right, i doubt it, but still.

Oh Thurst, you know I love ya, but your blissful optimism makes me laff.

Human beings kill each other. ESPECIALLY when you've got US arms. I mean, it's not like we send em over there to sit on the shelf.

[m121akuma]

Hell yeah Israel should cease-fire. Imagine if lebanin were your country with people that you love living in it. Would you simply say "don't let them cease fire" There are innocent people there who are getting bombed to hell and being made to be trapped in there. This is fucking ridiculous.

You can bet money if Israel went onto Lebanese soil and kidnapped soldiers, Lebanon would do the same thing. Justifiably so, as well. Not saying it's right or wrong, but cutting off transport is, from a military standpoint, an effective tactic, and has a smaller chance of directly killing civilians than carpet bombing or a full on invasion.

Can you tell me with a straight face that if the roles in this situation were reversed you would actually support Israel?

Edit: Mark Beast, what is Israel's place, may I ask?

[suleman]

Israel has 10,000 palestinians jailed for the 1 israeli they hold. Just saying.

[m121akuma]

Israel has 10,000 palestinians jailed for the 1 israeli they hold. Just saying.
Nobody ever gives context for anything. How did Israel detain these Palistinians? Were they in Israel or Palistine at the time? Did Israel give a reason? Information is not enough. To be informed, people need context. The same goes for your earlier "acts of war" post AHVB. Again, not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to stay informed. Can you please link me to information about the above and earlier mentioned incidents.

[Mark Beast]

i don't think anyone wants to hear about where i think israel's place is...i typed it out and yeah...i don't want to get tracked by the gov or anything for my opinions and from my posts on a message board. i think i'll keep it to myself. just know that i hope that lebanon will be helped out. i'll leave it at that.

[suleman]

http://www.mandela-palestine.org/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/pal-prisoners.html

[m121akuma]

http://www.mandela-palestine.org/

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/pal-prisoners.html
Those don't answer any of the questions I asked. Again, where were they when they were captured? What were they captured for? What were the circumstances behind their capture?

Mark Beast: The government doesn't care what a bunch of SRK posters have to say about Israel. You are either paranoid for no reason, or you are afraid of the reaction that your opinion may cause in the thread itself. These boards were meant for people to say what they want. I'm probably going to completely disagree with what you say, and give you a hard time about it, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't post it.

[Mark Beast]

i'm at work now, but i live in fort bragg...i'll be honest, i'm not too trusting of what the govt can do or what it does as far as spying on ppl, ip addresses, emails, search engines, etc. i don't want to come off as a supporter of hezbollah or hamas or as a terrorist or whatever they label someone that is not a sheep. i'm not saying that i'm not a supporter of either of the two, but i'm not saying that i am either...

[suleman]

For throwing rocks, I bet. Look it up yourself.

anyway... from 2003 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3130623.stm

Hard to find anything questioning israel's motives - most are 'political' prisoners.

[thurst]

Oh Thurst, you know I love ya, but your blissful optimism makes me laff.

Human beings kill each other. ESPECIALLY when you've got US arms. I mean, it's not like we send em over there to sit on the shelf.

lol yeah true, but that whole region acts like a bunch of little kids, israel included. from the vague threats they release and recant every so often to their psuedo-militias/terrorist groups. i guess the only way you can be so brazen and stupid is if they really do believe allah is gonna come in for the assist when they start getting their ass kicked.

[m121akuma]

For throwing rocks, I bet. Look it up yourself.
Hey, I'm just trying to make things clearer for myself and others on the board. Facts without context are meaningless. Saying "My best friend was shot", "My best friend was shot by a cop", and "My best friend had a gun to a hostage's head until a police sniper shot him through the temple" envoke VERY different reactions, despite all being true statements. Lack of context is a common tactic in both mainstream and underground media to persuade its audience toward a certain emotion or conclusion. In fact, just about everyone uses this tactic at least once in their lives. Both of those sources are using it, as are many sources both Pro and Anti-Israel.

In fact, I think I may have finally addressed one of the biggest issues behind political threads on SRK...

[Dan?]

lol yeah true, but that whole region acts like a bunch of little kids, israel included. from the vague threats they release and recant every so often to their psuedo-militias/terrorist groups. i guess the only way you can be so brazen and stupid is if they really do believe allah is gonna come in for the assist when they start getting their ass kicked.

Allah's anti-air assist is top tier. His Expansion assist is good too, but his Variety assist is kind of lame.


In fact, I think I may have finally addressed one of the biggest issues behind political threads on SRK...

<Suit> Mr. M121, if you could just follow me sir we have some questions to ask you.

[Mavric]

lol yeah true, but that whole region acts like a bunch of little kids, israel included. from the vague threats they release and recant every so often to their psuedo-militias/terrorist groups. i guess the only way you can be so brazen and stupid is if they really do believe allah is gonna come in for the assist when they start getting their ass kicked.

And I love how every time Israel blows something up the primeminister of said blown up object calls it a crime/murder etc. yet they allow there own milliant factions to launch rockets over the boarders willy nilly. And this is no longer a matter of who started what, I heard on NPR just a few min ago some guy from lebenon saying he is supporting hezbola because him (and others) are tired of Israel oppressing them even though they had given back all they territory they took in the war.

[suleman]

The BBC report says only 1500 of the prisoners at the time of 2003 had blood on their hands, and that most everyone else was a prisoner for their beliefs. I provided your damn context. I can't say they were throwing rocks? Why else would there be 400 kids jailed. No discussion on srk has any context other than opinion... in my experience.

[m121akuma]

<Suit> Mr. M121, if you could just follow me sir we have some questions to ask you.
SHIT, MARK BEAST WAS RIGHT!

suleman: I posted before you added the report to your post. Thank you for that information. There's still more I'd like to know, but I'll look it up myself. I wasn't trying to be an asshole to you, no reason to be one to me. I will say, though, that there are too many holes both sides of this conflict...that is why I want context, to see the big picture. It's not enough to say "They were probably throwing rocks." Not only is that an assumption, but it doesn't tell the whole story. That is simply the point I'm trying to make here. If you think context isn't important, hey, that's your right.

[P. Gorath]

watched a good documentary from last year that just came out on dvd...Protocols of Zion

check it out

[blankspaces]

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/644/loller1ua.jpg

[suleman]

Ah, my fault - you mean well. I'm an angry person and i like to act out unintelligibly :looney: .

[m121akuma]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/14/do1401.xml
Thoughts?

[De4dEyE]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_warship_2

It's about 1 step away from open warfare, imo.

[Bowza]

the arabs really think they can take israel out, they think the only reason they lost the 6 days war and shit was bcuz the US & british secretly helped...they need the hard truth given to them, and that is israel will fuck their shit up unless the rest of the world asks keeps them on a tight fucking leash. thats why i thnk we shouldn't force israel to cease fire, i think everyone should just follow the standard, "it's a tragedy what's going on over there" script and let them fight it out. this is "tough love" on a grand scale, maybe after this everyone over there will start acting right, i doubt it, but still.

The hard truth? They already know they can't win why do you think they keep trying to call for a cease-fire. This whole fiasco pretty much pushed any progress from peace talks like 10 years back. And there's no such thing as them "learning their lesson" and being good kids, because its like this, lets say some Israeli airstrikes kill civilians. Surviving relatives/friends of said civilians will join a group such as Hezbollah for revenge. And it will go on and on and on.

[Jion_Wansu]

go here:

www.michaelsavage.com

and then listen to Michael Savage live from 3:00 PM - 6:00 PM Pacific Time

http://www.surfmusic.de/radio-station/knew-910-am,5375.html

Also here is my opinion...While the whole world is focused on Israel. The USA should secretly take out North Korea's missile program and some other countries should take out Iran's nuclear program. That will stop the boiling pot from boiling over!!

Edit: Breaking News!!!! "Hezbolah: We are ready for open war with Israel!"

Shits about to hit the fan. I call this The Chaos War.

The difference between Israel and the Muslim Terrorists is that the Muslim Terrorists kill anyone and everyone and they don't care. Countries like Syria, Iran, and North Korea are threats to the world.

[Muskau]

Come on, the kidnapping of the soldiers from Israel is just tooo perfect for Israel. No one, and I mean NO ONE, is stupid enough to kidnap Israeli soldiers, everyone in the middle east knows what happens to people who live in Gaza.

Basically Israel is bombing the shit out of everything, Airports, Bridges, Power Plants. Yeah I'm sure that those are 'suspected terrorist strongholds' what sort of shit reporting is that. The News reported 110 targets that have been bombed. Now how are they supposed to 'rescue' someone if they are bombing the shit out of lebanon.

Everyone knows it's just an excuse.

And what does Bush and Rice say? They tell other countries to disarm when they aren't even attacking but when Israel bombs the shit out of a country its: "I would ask Israel to please keep civilian casualties to a minimum"

Fucking hypocrites.

Have a look at a map of Israel sometime. Sinai to the south is occupied by Israeli forces. Gaza on the west coast is under siege by Israeli Forces. West Bank, to the east; a part of the country of Jordan which contains sites both sacred to Islam and Judaism is also occupied. Syria to the northwest has a small occupation of forces, only Lebanon to the North is unoccupied... until now.

[Clear Sky]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_warship_2

It's about 1 step away from open warfare, imo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060715/wl_nm/mideast_syria_hizbollah_dc_1;_ylt=Apq_Am1WP6faXp_O 89Te.qAUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--

Sounds like it.

[De4dEyE]

Come on, the kidnapping of the soldiers from Israel is just tooo perfect for Israel. No one, and I mean NO ONE, is stupid enough to kidnap Israeli soldiers, everyone in the middle east knows what happens to people who live in Gaza.

So the past groups that have claimed responsibility for snatching X number of soldiers and eventually giving directions [or trading the body for X number of prisoners] to the body are false? Because there seems to be pretty good proof that yes, there is always someone that wants to grab even one soldier, which is probably because of the past response that Israel gives when faced with such a dilemma. I recall Israel freeing several prisoners just to get a soldiers corpse[s] back.

So yes, I think that saying no one would even think about kidnapping an Israeli soldier is far from the truth.

[R.P.D rookie]

Whatever is happening now with Israel and said muslim state(s) has raised my concern 0%. We go through this every month: arguing, bickering, threats of violence and acts of violence. They've been fighting for years and there's no end in sight in our lifetimes or even the generations to come. They'll fight until the end of the world or humanity.


Some people don't want peace.

[AHVB]

Oh and... The soldiers were kidnapped from the lebanese side, NOT the israeli side.

[Hunter D]

I really hope someone gets nuked. I seriously think that someone getting nuked is the only way to get other countries to step in. The middle east is like a bunch of damn kids. No one is paying attention so they are doing fuck up shit.

[ninjabastard]

watched a good documentary from last year that just came out on dvd...Protocols of Zion

check it out
I'm of the opinion that getting politics from documentaries is like asking fat people about eating right. However, I will make an exception for the History channel.

[supabeast]

Come on, the kidnapping of the soldiers from Israel is just tooo perfect for Israel. No one, and I mean NO ONE, is stupid enough to kidnap Israeli soldiers...

Your moronic post alone proves just how stupid people can be.

That said, the Arab opponents of Israel do not make intellectual decisions. Logic and reason rarely factor into the decisions made by Hassan Nasrallah, Bashir Al-Asad, and the Ayatollah Khameni. They're crazed religious fanatics, making decisions based on their belief that God wants to see all jews purged from the Middle East. They've been murdering, kidnapping, and otherwise brutalizing the civilian and military populations of both Israel and Arab nations. They lead failed states, with economies that are kept afloat only by the sale of oil, and all of their nations are on the brink of armed revolt held back only by fear that the loss of autocratic regimes would lead to civil wars like the one that gripped Lebanon for twenty years, or the one that George Bush's dimwitted foreign policy created in Iraq.

Israel is not the cause of the violence in the Middle East right now. This violence is rooted in anti-semitism, tribalism, nativism, and all of the atavistic tendencies of man that continue to be enflamed by radical islam. Until all appeasement of the radical arabs ends, and the Iran's regime is broken and destroyed, this will continue. Israel is the only beacon of hope amid all of this mess - because without the Israelis, any semblance of democracy or civilization in the Middle East would disappear amidst the rancor of barbarity.

[Muskau]

Your moronic post alone proves just how stupid people can be.

*snip*

Your post is like watching a White House speech.

Yes I forgot Israel is the shining beacon of enlightenment and hope for the region, and the Arabs are the barbarians; do you listen to yourself talk sometimes? Sounds like full on racism to me.

Get out of the thread and go do some research bud.

[ResolutePower]

Oh and... The soldiers were kidnapped from the lebanese side, NOT the israeli side.
where did you get that from?

[The Iron Sheik]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/14/do1401.xml
Thoughts?
The door swings both ways. There are several ploys which Israel/US do in the Middle East to cover up on other things that go unnoticed.

On another note, I think the tragedy that befell India (7 bombs went off in a bombay subway, killing thousands) is MUCH more tragic than a couple of israeli soldiers getting abducted on Lebanese territory. But the latter's news coverage greatly exceeds the first one.

Pathetic.

[AHVB]

where did you get that from?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html


. Also, they add that the Israeli tank destroyed by Hezbollah, and the soldiers captured and killed on July 12, had trespassed into Lebanon's side of the border with Israel.

[Naslectronical]

Israel is not the cause of the violence in the Middle East right now. This violence is rooted in anti-semitism, tribalism, nativism, and all of the atavistic tendencies of man that continue to be enflamed by radical islam. Until all appeasement of the radical arabs ends, and the Iran's regime is broken and destroyed, this will continue. Israel is the only beacon of hope amid all of this mess - because without the Israelis, any semblance of democracy or civilization in the Middle East would disappear amidst the rancor of barbarity.

The cause of the violence in the Middle East right now is

A) The imperialist ambitions of France and Great Britain after WWI.

B) The creation of Israel after WWII and the political and economic ambitions of the US and Soviet Union during the cold war.

Your statement about Israel being the only beacon of hope is so absurd that I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply to it. If you want to talk about barbarism, then perhaps you might bring up Israel's demolishing of entire neighborhoods just to catch one or two people, or its wanton bombing of non-military targets in Lebanon, or its torture of detainees.

The idea of "Poor Israel, big bad Arab nations" couldn't be further from the truth.

If it were up to me, I'd stop supporting Israel and let them fend for themselves financially and military. I bet they'd cut it out once they no longer had the backing of the US.

[AdverseSolutions]

The cause of the violence in the Middle East right now is

A) The imperialist ambitions of France and Great Britain after WWI.

B) The creation of Israel after WWII and the political and economic ambitions of the US and Soviet Union during the cold war.

Your statement about Israel being the only beacon of hope is so absurd that I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply to it. If you want to talk about barbarism, then perhaps you might bring up Israel's demolishing of entire neighborhoods just to catch one or two people, or its wanton bombing of non-military targets in Lebanon, or its torture of detainees.

The idea of "Poor Israel, big bad Arab nations" couldn't be further from the truth.

If it were up to me, I'd stop supporting Israel and let them fend for themselves financially and military. I bet they'd cut it out once they no longer had the backing of the US.

You get things half-right. Certainly your statement works for the causes of warfare directly after WWII, but we are in a much different world now. The Soviet Union stopped supporting Israel very quickly after its foundation, in the 50s iirc. Both of the biggest imperialist powers, the US and the USSR found client regimes, the USSR initially in the pan-Arabist Nasser regime in Egypt and later in states like Iran and Iraq, just as the US also found an interest in these states. What we are dealing with now is actually the FALLOUT from the anti-colonialist revolutions in the middle East, which brought to power the Ba'ath party (in Syria and Iraq) and made a success out of the Iranian counter-revolution in 1979, bringing the Shi'a regime into power. Hamas is also a part of the lineage of the anti-colonial efforts, being the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Arab fascist group (and I think this description is just because of their connection to the European far-right during WWII and after). The anti-colonial narrative always went that the interests of the united Arabs as an economic block were blocked by a single contradiction (Nasser) in the establishment of the state of Israel, and therefore all efforts were justified in destroying it.

Israel is a cause of violence insofar as it has a holdover in colonialist mentality and, thanks to Hamas' politics, has managed to maintain some of its most ridiculous settlements in the West Bank and Gaza and in the past two weeks throw the idea of a Palestinian state into question. But you subscribe full-stop to the anti-imperialist narrative that the cause of the present violence is a single state, Israel. It doesn't seem to occur to you that the ruling classes of the other countries in the middle East might have their own agendas and projects to carry out against their own populations, i.e. control, indoctrination and distraction from the contradictions of their own regimes. Israel is a perfect target and has always been the pan-Arab rallying cry. After the bloody decimation of the Iran/Iraq war, the Ba'ath party could only regain the support of the Iraqi population by targeting a 'common enemy', Israel. And that's just for instance. There are plenty of these united fronts. The European far right for instance would agree very much with the way you outline the conflict. And they couldn't have an agenda could they?

[Naslectronical]

You get things half-right. Certainly your statement works for the causes of warfare directly after WWII, but we are in a much different world now. The Soviet Union stopped supporting Israel very quickly after its foundation, in the 50s iirc. Both of the biggest imperialist powers, the US and the USSR found client regimes, the USSR initially in the pan-Arabist Nasser regime in Egypt and later in states like Iran and Iraq, just as the US also found an interest in these states. What we are dealing with now is actually the FALLOUT from the anti-colonialist revolutions in the middle East, which brought to power the Ba'ath party (in Syria and Iraq) and made a success out of the Iranian counter-revolution in 1979, bringing the Shi'a regime into power. Hamas is also a part of the lineage of the anti-colonial efforts, being the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Arab fascist group (and I think this description is just because of their connection to the European far-right during WWII and after). The anti-colonial narrative always went that the interests of the united Arabs as an economic block were blocked by a single contradiction (Nasser) in the establishment of the state of Israel, and therefore all efforts were justified in destroying it.


Israel is a cause of violence insofar as it has a holdover in colonialist mentality and, thanks to Hamas' politics, has managed to maintain some of its most ridiculous settlements in the West Bank and Gaza and in the past two weeks throw the idea of a Palestinian state into question. But you subscribe full-stop to the anti-imperialist narrative that the cause of the present violence is a single state, Israel. It doesn't seem to occur to you that the ruling classes of the other countries in the middle East might have their own agendas and projects to carry out against their own populations, i.e. control, indoctrination and distraction from the contradictions of their own regimes. Israel is a perfect target and has always been the pan-Arab rallying cry. After the bloody decimation of the Iran/Iraq war, the Ba'ath party could only regain the support of the Iraqi population by targeting a 'common enemy', Israel. And that's just for instance. There are plenty of these united fronts. The European far right for instance would agree very much with the way you outline the conflict. And they couldn't have an agenda could they?

Perhaps you should stop putting words into my mouth.

I stated that one of the causes of the violence is the creation of Israel, for which the United States and Great Britain are responsible.

You can argue all you want that the Arab nations have an agenda, nevermind the fact that I never made any claims to the contrary, but the parties that rule these nations wouldn't be in power if it weren't for nations that I mentioned.

Had France and Britain not colonized large parts of the Ottoman Empire after promising the newly created states their indepence, they wouldn't have been thrown into the ensuing turmoil when their indepence finally was granted decades later.

Had the US not overthrown Mossadegh and installed the Shah(who brutalized many of his own people while being supported by the US), there would have been no Iranian Revolution, and Khomeini would have never come to power. Had the US not supported the coup that brought the Baath party into power, there'd have been no Saddam Hussein(who also brutalized many of his own people while being supported by the US), and no Iran-Iraq war.

Had the US and UK not created and supported Israel for their own ends, and had the Soviet Union not supported the Arab nations for their own ends, there'd have been no Arab-Israeli conflicts in the 50's and 60's, no 6-day war, no Ramadan war, no Gaza conflicts, no invasions of Lebanon.

If not for the imperialistic and financial ambitions of the Bush administration, Iraq wouldn't be the all-out fucking war zone that it is today.

Back to the Arab nations having an agenda, since you wanted to bring that up, well, ya think? I mean, you can't just create a nation in the middle of someone else's territory, arm it to the teeth to do your bidding and then say "fuck you" and expect the other nations to lay down and take it. If the shoe were on the other foot and an Arab nation was a super power, and they decided to take the southwestern United States and create a nation that they supported, would the rest of America be wrong for having an agenda to destroy it?

Hopefully, you can now see that I'm placing the blame for the situation in the Middle East on Britain, France, the US, and the former Soviet Union, but the state of Israel isn't totally innocent in this(neither are the Arab nations), which is why I mentioned some of its acts.

However, it still all comes down to the four world powers, because had it not been for their actions, none of this would be happening.

[0746]

Interesting discussion.

My point of view would cross information given by Naslectronical. To create, you need to destroy. When you destroy something that is part of someone else, its sin even if you are the son of god.

And don't bother giving those bullshit about "god's chosen people" and "only jewish state" or "only beacon of hope." Those only attract the blind and those who choose to ignore. If there are any bad guys here, they would be those behind Israel and Israel.

[IceOfHouse]

the Arab opponents of Israel do not make intellectual decisions. Logic and reason rarely factor into the decisions made by Hassan Nasrallah, Bashir Al-Asad, and the Ayatollah Khameni. They're crazed religious fanatics, making decisions based on their belief that God wants to see all jews purged from the Middle East. They've been murdering, kidnapping, and otherwise brutalizing the civilian and military populations of both Israel and Arab nations.


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html

Funny. You'd think they would get rid of the ones in their country before they bothered looking next door.


However, from my perspective the problems in the region wont be resolved peacefully by any of those groups. History clearly shows that the cultures there hold grudges for a very long time. It's sad to see the victims of the "terrorist strikes" (in quotes, because its subjet to different interpritations. A terrorist could be percived as anothers freedom fighter), as well as the people that get caught by strikes from Israels military.

The only way I could see a lasting peace made there is if the following happens:
1. The Palestinians come to terms and accept that right or wrong Israel is there to stay.

2. Israel pulls back to the pre 1967 established borders, and stops creating new settlements.

3. The international community sends an unbiased and impartial force into the region to observer and enforce the conditions of whatever agreements they come to.

From there the opportunity for finger pointing comes to an end. If the Palestinians are able to police their own population and show themselves reasonable enough to stop bombing civilians in Israel, they present themselves a way to establish a real goverment that wont be subject to accusations and summarily dismissed as being barbaric and overtly antisemitic

It also makes everything there a bit easier to sort out. If the Israeli's continue striking people they deem as entities of terrorist organizations, or refuse to stop the continually expanding settlements they would show themselves as being the real aggressors. If they abided by the terms and were still subject to terrorist attacks then they would be able to continue on the current course they've been on, but with alot less outcry and much more support from the international community.

[m121akuma]

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html

Funny. You'd think they would get rid of the ones in their country before they bothered looking next door.


However, from my perspective the problems in the region wont be resolved peacefully by any of those groups. History clearly shows that the cultures there hold grudges for a very long time. It's sad to see the victims of the "terrorist strikes" (in quotes, because its subjet to different interpritations. A terrorist could be percived as anothers freedom fighter), as well as the people that get caught by strikes from Israels military.

The only way I could see a lasting peace made there is if the following happens:
1. The Palestinians come to terms and accept that right or wrong Israel is there to stay.

2. Israel pulls back to the pre 1967 established borders, and stops creating new settlements.

3. The international community sends an unbiased and impartial force into the region to observer and enforce the conditions of whatever agreements they come to.

From there the opportunity for finger pointing comes to an end. If the Palestinians are able to police their own population and show themselves reasonable enough to stop bombing civilians in Israel, they present themselves a way to establish a real goverment that wont be subject to accusations and summarily dismissed as being barbaric and overtly antisemitic

It also makes everything there a bit easier to sort out. If the Israeli's continue striking people they deem as entities of terrorist organizations, or refuse to stop the continually expanding settlements they would show themselves as being the real aggressors. If they abided by the terms and were still subject to terrorist attacks then they would be able to continue on the current course they've been on, but with alot less outcry and much more support from the international community.
How DARE you be unbiased, impartial, and FAIR! Don't you know that [Israel, Palistine] is PURE EVIL and [Israel, Palistine] is simply being bullied?!? Don't you know what POLITICAL DISCUSSION is about?!?

[IceOfHouse]

How DARE you be unbiased, impartial, and FAIR! Don't you know that [Israel, Palistine] is PURE EVIL and [Israel, Palistine] is simply being bullied?!? Don't you know what POLITICAL DISCUSSION is about?!?
Um. O.k.

What we needs to do here is let them blow each other all to hell,let god sort them out? :rofl:

[m121akuma]

Um. O.k.

What we needs to do here is let them blow each other all to hell,let god sort them out? :rofl:
THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!:wgrin:

Seriously, excellent post before. I think it deserves a "Close Thread"

[FurryCurry]

Why doesn't the rest of the world care then? The US is always the one to "do something". Why can't the EU or Russia do anything this time?

Look, what I'm trying to get at is that it'll take the entire world (the world with power) to step in and take control because obviously they can't control themselves.

[AHVB]

Why doesn't the rest of the world care then? The US is always the one to "do something". Why can't the EU or Russia do anything this time?

Look, what I'm trying to get at is that it'll take the entire world (the world with power) to step in and take control because obviously they can't control themselves.

Because this is one of those situations where the U.S. has the moral authority to DO something. Mind you, it's the taxpayers money that gave israel most of those weapons they're using and It's the taxpayers who basically support israel. It's is the US's duty to put an end to this non-sense yet our president does nothing.

[0746]

Most countries, especially in the west has close ties with Israel. For example, Israel is an important body for Australian army in providing them with warfare technologies. I would imagine its vary similar with countries in EU. US would not say anything to Israel directly because of reasons we all know. Those countries would never speak up straight directly with Israel unless its the worst case scenario. Regardless of how it seems, those Arab nations have no ties with Israel and will always support Palestine because they will percieve it as a religious war as Israel calls itself "the jewish state." It's a fact that Israel has enough power to take over the entire middle east if they go unchecked by external powers...but they would not want to make it look bad. A war would mean another mini gulf war and Israel will go as far as lebanon and Syria and win for sure. No one else is in any strategic position who would care or dare. You can just let them kill each other but the result will be no better than the result of Iraq war. Couple of dead nations like Afganistan and Iraq, ready to suck US/UN dik. btw...i dont mean to offend anyone by this.

[AHVB]

Where the fuck are Iran and Syria? Someone should come to help damnit.

Ahh I just hope this doesnt continue onto Iran then have the U.S. "come to israels aid" and have our troops caught in the middle. Or maybe this was the plan all along.

"By way of deception..."

[AHVB]

Bullshit

Did AIPAC write that post for you?

[IceOfHouse]

It's a fact that Israel has enough power to take over the entire middle east if they go unchecked by external powers...but they would not want to make it look bad. A war would mean another mini gulf war and Israel will go as far as lebanon and Syria and win for sure. No one else is in any strategic position who would care or dare. .


I'm gonna disagree. If Israel isnt careful nukes or no they will get their asses handed to them. The last thing the United States needs is to get involved in a conflict that would have the potential of having to face off with Iran. Back in the 80's the U.S made the mistake of supporting Saddamn Hussien with a chemical arsenal to help them with their invasion in Iran. While that conflict was going on Israel was in a skirmish with Lebanon. Iran paid the U.S back for that by funding the bombing of the marine barracks in Beruit.

And trust me, the U.S. getting into it with Iran will be Ugly. It will make the 91 Gulf war, the invasion of Afgahnistan, and the current conflict in Iraq look like band camp.

[m121akuma]

Where the fuck are Iran and Syria? Someone should come to help damnit.

They don't wanna rock the boat, lol.

[suleman]

Did AIPAC write that post for you?

:rofl: Wish i had said that.

[FurryCurry]

They don't wanna rock the boat, lol.

Or do they?

Mwhahahahahahaha. Anyway.

I wonder when they'll learn that world domination through corporations is the way to go.

[0746]

I'm gonna disagree. If Israel isnt careful nukes or no they will get their asses handed to them. I don't know much about Israel's nuclear capabilities. It's definitely not something that the world likes to talk about. I was not referring to them.

[Bowza]

Your moronic post alone proves just how stupid people can be.

That said, the Arab opponents of Israel do not make intellectual decisions. Logic and reason rarely factor into the decisions made by Hassan Nasrallah, Bashir Al-Asad, and the Ayatollah Khameni. They're crazed religious fanatics, making decisions based on their belief that God wants to see all jews purged from the Middle East. .

what the hell? I never heard of this, so I'm honestly asking you to please tell me where you heard that those people believe that God wants to see all jews removed from the Middle east? I don't see how even the worst interpreter of Islam could somehow make up the fact that God asked for that.

[Serpent]

what the hell? I never heard of this, so I'm honestly asking you to please tell me where you heard that those people believe that God wants to see all jews removed from the Middle east? I don't see how even the worst interpreter of Islam could somehow make up the fact that God asked for that.

Historically, if I remember correctly, Christians wanted to kill all Jews and it's the Muslim Empires that co-existed with them, especially the Ottoman/Turkish empires. I think the Byzantine or some city of some sort figured into this.

I'm also pretty sure Hitler wasn't Muslim, and I'm pretty sure he's killed more Jews than any Islamic group.

Actually, that's the problem with history, more than likely it is just ignored or nobody knows what happened so they just say what they want. People like to promote their own race/people at the expense of others. The winners write the history books as we know...

Whenever any oppressed group comes to power, it always seems that they immediately oppress another group, I guess to make themselves feel more powerful. You can see this phenomenon in neighborhoods in the US, with Blacks oppressing Asians, and a cycle going on with that.

I don't understand why we don't just give the Palestinians some other land somewhere else, wouldn't that solve the problems? Why don't we give them part of Russia? That country is freaking huge and I doubt that people love all across it. Or carve out a piece of India and give that to them. There are a lot of options, and if we go by the theory that it's a religion problem, then giving them land in an Arab nation shouldn't really pose problems.

As for Israel, I've seen papers and heard interviews that show that it's actually the Zionists that want to basically take over that entire region. Theres an old Israeli government objective that was leaked about a decade ago that shows the desired "Spheres of Influence" and it's basically the entire middle east, all of asia, and a lot of europe. Don't think Israel does not have ambitions.

[NOBITA KUN]

Fuck Israel


I want to "fuck" the women:lovin:

[supabeast]

what the hell? I never heard of this, so I'm honestly asking you to please tell me where you heard that those people believe that God wants to see all jews removed from the Middle east? I don't see how even the worst interpreter of Islam could somehow make up the fact that God asked for that.

"[Israel] must be wiped out from the map of the world."Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, President of Iran, Quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/)

If the President of Iran encouraging the destruction of Israel using the words of one of the most powerful Muslim cleric in history doesn't show that there are people finding justification for antisemitism in Islam, I don't know what does.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Islam is inherently antisemitic, only that leaders of Islamo-facist regimes tend to interpret it that way.

[Muskau]

Many people think Israel was never supposed to be created in the first place, the Zionist movement trying to buy up land in the area and then after WWII striking a deal for a country of their own. Understandably people in the area are upset that the US and UK just decided to plop a new country down there.
Islamic Extremists are just as bad as Zionist extremists in my eyes.

[Bowza]

"[Israel] must be wiped out from the map of the world."Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, President of Iran, Quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/)

If the President of Iran encouraging the destruction of Israel using the words of one of the most powerful Muslim cleric in history doesn't show that there are people finding justification for antisemitism in Islam, I don't know what does.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Islam is inherently antisemitic, only that leaders of Islamo-facist regimes tend to interpret it that way.

Removing Israel is not saying he wants to purge all the jews. Are there some who want to remove Israel and also have some kinda weird agenda against jews? Sure. But seeing as jews do live in Iran, just removing jews is not on their agenda. The Bush administration is always basically calling out for the removal of the Iranian regime, but doesn't mean they're necessarily anti-persian/anti-muslim. Again this whole thing is a lot deeper and isn't so one-dimensional as "I don't like your background."



I don't understand why we don't just give the Palestinians some other land somewhere else, wouldn't that solve the problems? Why don't we give them part of Russia? That country is freaking huge and I doubt that people love all across it. Or carve out a piece of India and give that to them. There are a lot of options, and if we go by the theory that it's a religion problem, then giving them land in an Arab nation shouldn't really pose problems.



Isn't this how Israel was created? Carving out a piece of another area and dumping the people there? The whole point would be that the Palestinians want their own places back. I mean you can't have someone come to your house, kick you out, and then tell you "hey you can move to maryland". It wasn't originally a religion problem, but seeing as the two sides are of different religions, religion has become a small part of it.

[0746]

"[Israel] must be wiped out from the map of the world."Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, President of Iran, Quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/)
I don't think Kanomi as he is now would have said something that stupid. He would know his place better than anybody with us troops next door. Did you guys read the letter he sent to US President? lol

[Naslectronical]

I don't think Kanomi as he is now would have said something that stupid. He would know his place better than anybody with us troops next door. Did you guys read the letter he sent to US President? lol

Who do you think is more vulnerable given the situation?

Iran, or the US troops?

[thurst]

sounds like they need a DMZ over there

[Hydro]

The arab nations in the middle east only think twice about war with Israel because its backed by the US.

As far as the last time goes, Egypt was beating Israel pretty badly during the Ramadan War, and would have most likely won had it not been for intervention by the US.

Israel's nukes are nothing more than a show of "we have them and you don't". Other than that, they're politically unusable and militarily irrelevant.Yes you are right

I believe and know The other Islamic Nations are Holding Back cause Israel is Backed by Us:sad:

I'll say before Bush term is up Israel Is gonna catch a Hot one from the Middle East they're gonna get fucked up very soon.:annoy:

2Pac once said in a Lyric "Your not shit Without Your Homeboys":rofl:

[RockBogart]

On top of military might Isreal has a hellified intelligence agency in the form of MOSAD. Fuckers are far more successful than the CIA unfortantely.

[Javid]

Interesting thread so far. I guess the media isn't showing you this in America:

http://www.videos.informationclearinghouse.info/aaz.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41893000/jpg/_41893494_afp416mum.jpg

Now I'm not going to get in to a whole argument regarding the injustice being done to Lebanon, because I think there isn't much more to say here that hasn't been already said.

BTW, here is a translated version of His Excellency Sayyid Hasan Nasrallah's speech(He is the leader of Hizballah), that was recently released:

...In this first address that I give in these days following Operation True Promise, I would like to say a few words – a word to the Lebanese people, a word to the resistance fighters, a word to the Zionists, and a word to the Arab rulers. I will not offer words to the international community because I have never for one day believed that there is any such thing as an international community, just as many in our nation feel.

First, I say to the Lebanese people: dear people – who embraced the resistance, by whom the resistance was victorious, and for whom the resistance won its victory on 25 May 2000 – this people who were the makers of the first victory in the history of the Arab struggle with the Israeli enemy, despite the basic inequality in forces, and in spite of the fact that the majority of our Arab brothers and the majority of our Muslim brothers abandoned us and despite the silence of the whole world, this Lebanese people made the miracle of the victory that stunned the world and humiliated the Zionists. Those Zionists look upon this people in a special, unique way because they accomplished in the history of the struggle with them a special and unique accomplishment. The battle today is no longer a battle over prisoners or the exchange of prisoners. It might be said that the Zionist enemy is responding any time there is any operation where men are captured anywhere in any part of the world, by any army or any state that has borders and regulations. What is taking place today is not a response to a capture of their soldiers; it is a squaring of accounts with the people, resistance, state, army, political forces, regions, villages, and families that inflicted that historic defeat on that aggressive usurper entity that has never accepted its defeat.

Today, therefore, this is a total war that Zionism is waging to clear its whole account with Lebanon, the Lebanese people, the Lebanese state, the Lebanese army, and the Lebanese resistance, in revenge and reprisal for the victory they won on 25 May 2000.

Dear steadfast, mujahid, and noble people, I know that the overwhelming majority of this people, in their minds, hearts, wills, culture, thoughts, love, passion, and sacrifice are a people of nobility, dignity, honor, distinction, and pride, not a people of servility, subservience, submissiveness, and surrender. I say to you that in this battle we are faced with two choices – not “we” as in Hizballah, or as in the resistance, the Hizballah resistance – but Lebanon as a state, a people, an army, a resistance, and a political power – we are faced with two choices: either to submit today to the conditions that the Zionist enemy wants to dictate to us all, using the pressure, support, and backing it has from America, from around the world, and, I’m sorry to say, from Arabs. Either we submit completely to its conditions, which means taking Lebanon into an Israeli age under Israeli domination – in total frankness this is the extent of the matter – or we stand steadfast. That is the other choice: that we persevere, that we persevere and confront....

During the Grapes of Wrath in 1996, or the clearing of accounts in 1993, in the beginning they had the upper hand and our situation was much worse. But today, the situation is different. Believe me, and I mean this, the situation now is different. All that we need is to persevere, stand steadfast, and confront them united, and I know and I will bet that the majority of our people are a people of steadfastness, a mujahid people who can sacrifice, who have no need for pep talks. What I’m saying now is only by way of completing the idea, and affirming the choice, and clarifying what this means.

Now, as for my words for the resistance fighters, for my dear and beloved brothers: upon them rest the hopes of every Lebanese, every Palestinian, every Arab, every Muslim, every free and decent person in this world, every oppressed, tortured victim of injustice, every lover of steadfastness, courage, dignity, values, and nobility – the characteristics they embody by their presence on the field of battle and in their fight with this enemy... To the Zionists, to the people of the Zionist entity at this hour I say to them: you will soon discover how foolish and stupid are your new rulers, your new leaders. They do not know how to assess reality. They have no experience in this area. You Zionists say in opinion polls that you believe me more than you believe your officials. So now I call on you to listen well and believe me. Today we have persevered despite the attack that took place last night in the southern suburbs. However the attacks multiply in every village, neighborhood, street, and home in Lebanon, there is no difference between the south Beirut suburbs, the City of Beirut, or any home in south Lebanon, in the Beqaa, or the north, or Mount Lebanon, or any corner of Lebanon.

The equation has now changed. I will not say today that if you strike Beirut, we will strike Haifa. I will not tell you that if you hit the south Beirut suburbs, we will hit Haifa. You wanted to get rid of that equation, so now we and you have got rid of it in actuality. You wanted open warfare, and we are going into open warfare. We are ready for it, a war on every level. To Haifa, and, believe me, to beyond Haifa, and to beyond beyond Haifa. Not only we will be paying a price. Not only our houses will be destroyed. Not only our children will be killed. Not only our people will be displaced. Those days are past. That was how it was before 1982, and before the year 2000. Those times have come to an end. I promise you those times have passed. Therefore you must also bear the responsibility for what your government has done, for what that government has undertaken. From now on, you wanted open warfare, so it will be open warfare. You wanted it. Your government wanted to change the rules of the game, so let the rules then be changed. You don’t know today whom you’re fighting. You are fighting the children of Muhammad, of Ali, of al-Hasan, of al-Husayn, of the Prophet’s family, the Prophet’s Companions. You are fighting a people who have faith such as no one else on the face of the earth possesses. And you have chosen open warfare with a people who take pride in their history, their civilization, and their culture, and who also possess material power, ability, expertise, knowledge, calm, imagination, determination, steadfastness, and courage. In the coming days it will be between us and you, God willing.

As to the Arab rulers, I don’t want to ask you about your history. I just want to say a few words. We are adventurers. We in Hizballah are adventurers, yes. But we have been adventurers since 1982. And we have brought to our country only victory, freedom, liberation, dignity, honor, and pride. This is our history. This is our experience. This is our adventure. In the year 1982 you said and the world said that we were crazy. But we proved that we were the rational ones, so who then was crazy? This is something else and I don’t want to get into an argument with anyone. So I tell them simply: go bet on your reason and we will bet on our adventure, with God as our Supporter and Benefactor. We have never for one day counted on you. We have trusted in God, our people, our hearts, our hands, and our children. Today we do the same, and God willing, victory will follow. The surprises that I promised you will begin starting now. Now, out at sea off the coast of Beirut an Israeli military vessel that attacked our infrastructure, that struck the homes of our people, our civilians; you can see it burning. It will sink and with it dozens of Zionist Israeli troops. This is the beginning. There will be a lot more said before the end. Peace be upon you and the mercy of God!

General Secretary of Hizballah, His Excellency Sayyid Hasan Nasrallah, to the Nation, the Lebanese people, the resistance fighters, the Zionists, and the Arab leaders.

Translated by Muhammad Abu Nasr

[AdverseSolutions]

What are nasrallah's words but boasts of strength, or promises for revenge? What distinguishes his organization from the violence of the Israeli state? Why does Nasrallah think that people in Israel really believe that he wants to talk to them if the organization is dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

Why do you call him 'His Excellency'? Are you live-action role-playing? Do you have a sword in your hand right now?

[thurst]

granted there is news that we don't get on american tv...but what does seeing dead babies prove, besides drawing irrelevant emotional responses out of people?

and yeah that hezbollah guy is off his fucking rocker, a giant LOL @ javidjin calling him "his excellency"

but anyways, egypt & syria had some initial success during the ramadan war which would be expected during any surprise attack...but israel got the upper hand and started beasting again within the first 2 days of fighting, so who really doesn't want it with who? the arabs count it as a victory bcuz they didn't get raped as bad as they did in the 6 days war, but they were on the verge of having their shit ruined by the time the UN stepped and stopped it.

[AHVB]

Well seeing as how noone seems to want to help these people, i say fuck it label me all you want; But for once I'm rooting for Hezbollah, it is already clear that the Israelis planned this a very long time ago, it is also clear that the soldiers were caught on the lebanese side of the border. It is also clear that the israelis are killing innocent people in this bombing campaign so fuck it, They have EVERY right to defend themselves.

[AHVB]

"[Israel] must be wiped out from the map of the world."Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, President of Iran, Quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/26/ahmadinejad/)

If the President of Iran encouraging the destruction of Israel using the words of one of the most powerful Muslim cleric in history doesn't show that there are people finding justification for antisemitism in Islam, I don't know what does.

Keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Islam is inherently antisemitic, only that leaders of Islamo-facist regimes tend to interpret it that way.

Jesus christ are you retarted? the president of Iran never said that. I already proved that earlier in the thread.

Islamo-Facist? jesus christ that's a retarted term. The term Islamo Facist is completely Oxymoronic.

And what does anti-semitism have anything to do with this thread?


Where do you get your info from, Fox News?

[Overworld]

I think you couldn't argue that the Iranian president likes Israel, but really it serves him no good purpose to aid and abed Hezbollah. (I apologize in advance for any possible typos, as some of these foreign names I'm less familiar with spelling wise.)

Anyhow, on Israel's side, they have retreated from areas, like Gaza, in order to further peace and have nothing to show for it. I believe they feel they have exhausted there options, as far as retreat goes, and feel that this is the proper course to take.

On the side of Hezbollah, they certainly have the right to defend themselves. Though, I wonder how well they shall be able to retaliate, lacking many of the advantages the Israeli army has, perhaps it is foolish at this point and time to stand and fight, and they may be better served to regroup and come back, rather than try to figure out ways around the air strikes. (They've already lost the Lebanese International Airport, not that it's that useable anymore.)

As with many countries in this region, collateral damage is something none of them tend to care all that much about. There have been attacks both ways for years upon years to establish that.

However, I just hope Bush doesn't try to overplay the relation between Hezbollah and Hamas (again, sorry for any mispellings), because while they may share ideologies on some accounts, Hezbollah is a local happening, it's not something that started elsewhere and spread to Lebanon.

[AHVB]

I think you couldn't argue that the Iranian president likes Israel, but really it serves him no good purpose to aid and abed Hezbollah. (I apologize in advance for any possible typos, as some of these foreign names I'm less familiar with spelling wise.)

Anyhow, on Israel's side, they have retreated from areas, like Gaza, in order to further peace and have nothing to show for it. I believe they feel they have exhausted there options, as far as retreat goes, and feel that this is the proper course to take.

On the side of Hezbollah, they certainly have the right to defend themselves. Though, I wonder how well they shall be able to retaliate, lacking many of the advantages the Israeli army has, perhaps it is foolish at this point and time to stand and fight, and they may be better served to regroup and come back, rather than try to figure out ways around the air strikes. (They've already lost the Lebanese International Airport, not that it's that useable anymore.)

As with many countries in this region, collateral damage is something none of them tend to care all that much about. There have been attacks both ways for years upon years to establish that.

However, I just hope Bush doesn't try to overplay the relation between Hezbollah and Hamas (again, sorry for any mispellings), because while they may share ideologies on some accounts, Hezbollah is a local happening, it's not something that started elsewhere and spread to Lebanon.

Also The Iranians have done absolutely nothing at this point with regards to this situation in Lebanon. Iran's president has denied all allegations against him and there has been no evidence linking him to this event.

[AHVB]

Here are the ESTABLISHED facts as of yet:

First and foremost the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the border, they were clearly tresspassing so calling Hezbollas actions "an act of war" is irrelevant. It should also be noted that this bombing campaign was planned a very long time ago, so how can this be seen as legitimate, let alone necessary? If this were really about the 3 IDF Soldiers, why the hell are the Israelis bombing the hell out of Lebanon? Aren't they worried about the IDF soldiers? Now, the new propaganda regarding this issue is the "fact" that Oran is somehow involved, once again it's complete bullshit, Irans president has denied any involvement in any attack against Israel. Of course the U.S. is stopping all UN action against israel in this matter.

Israel bombing Airports, bridges, crowds of people and gas stations?

It should be noted that 8 Canadians and 2 German citizens have been killed as a result of these airstrikes.

[Javid]

What are nasrallah's words but boasts of strength, or promises for revenge? What distinguishes his organization from the violence of the Israeli state? Why does Nasrallah think that people in Israel really believe that he wants to talk to them if the organization is dedicated to the destruction of Israel?

Why do you call him 'His Excellency'? Are you live-action role-playing? Do you have a sword in your hand right now?

Hmm, let's see Hezbollah was founded out of opression. After decade of opression the Shia in Southern Lebanon had enough and decided to organize themselves.

There wouldn't be a Hezbollah today if the Shia weren't opressed and all those poor Palestinian refugees weren't in the south. As for his belief in the Israeli people wanting to talk to him, that stems from the fact that majority of the Israeli's want peace, yet the government doesn't.

Ultimately, this is a Catch 22 now for Israel. :lovin:

As for why I call Sayyid Hasan Nasrallah his excellency is due to the fact that his a Sayyid. We Shia tend to refer to Sayyids this way out of a sign of respect.

[thurst]

hezbollah doesn't have the right to defend itself or arrest anybody, least of all israeli soldiers. hezbollah isn't a nation, they're a rogue militia group at best and a bonafide terrorist group at worst, either way they have no more power to take prisoners than does the average non-military group (read: NONE).

[catchafire]

Man, I expected more from Israel. Why do they even exist? Taking land from a group of people, then shoving them out and not expect retaliation? Now they want to spawn WWIII and I could give a shit about Israel. There actions just breed anti-semitic beliefs. It's unfortunate, but I expected a lot more from Israel.

[The Grey Area]

hezbollah doesn't have the right to defend itself or arrest anybody, least of all israeli soldiers. hezbollah isn't a nation, they're a rogue militia group at best and a bonafide terrorist group at worst, either way they have no more power to take prisoners than does the average non-military group (read: NONE).

Yet, they were official enough for Israel to attack an entire fucking country over one of the groups transgresions.

[suleman]

Better refer to me as "his excellency" as well then.

edit: or actually... all praise is due to god :P

[AHVB]

hezbollah doesn't have the right to defend itself or arrest anybody, least of all israeli soldiers. hezbollah isn't a nation, they're a rogue militia group at best and a bonafide terrorist group at worst, either way they have no more power to take prisoners than does the average non-military group (read: NONE).

The prisoners were on their side of the border.

[thurst]

hezbollah doesn't have a side of the border, since they aren't a nation

[AHVB]

hezbollah doesn't have a side of the border, since they aren't a nation

What's your point? Fact is that Israeli soldiers were not in their country. They were in someone elses country without consent from the lebanese. So whatever happens should not be considered an act of war because they should not have been there in the 1st place.

The same thing would have happened if it were an american soldier in iran, a japanese soldier in venezuela bla bla. These soldiers are men with guns and are in theory not supposed to be in another country unless both governments have agreed to a aforementioned. It's not like these were just soldiers saying hi to the locals and sunbathing in the street.

If it were a member of hezbollah that were detained on the Israeli side of the border and it were hezbollah bombing israel to hell, this would not get any positive attention nor would hezbollah be allowed to bombard israel. The hipocrisy of it all.

[AHVB]

http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/47671/1356651/overview

New massacre in Lebanon by Israeli Terrorists.

[AdverseSolutions]

AHVB, the fact that they were abducted on the lebanese side of the border seems very important for your argument. Where exactly are you getting this information? Where were these soldiers abducted from? As far as I've read they were captured near Zarit which is still within Israeli borders.

Geography major AHVB, read this: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738310.html

[ninjabastard]

Yet, they were official enough for Israel to attack an entire fucking country over one of the groups transgresions.
Non-govenment organizations (terrorists for example) are not legitamate war making entities. Because they have no state or territory to respond to, they can do what ever they want without facing the consequences. Which is why only states are considered legitimate.

A state has control over what goes on within its borders. If the Lebanese is making no effort to control the terrorists within its boarders, Israel should be able to attack in response since the Lebanese government by their expressed, or implied consent because they did nothing to stop the terrorist activites, had a terrorist group attack another state. I mean you really don't see the Lebanese government go out of its way to curtail this kind of shit. Someone is at fault. If the state housing the terrorists is not doing anything to stop this, they are by de facto consenting to the actions of this group. Thus, are responsible for their the terrorists actions. In law, this would be negligence or gross negligence


AHVB, the fact that they were abducted on the lebanese side of the border seems very important for your argument.
I assume his argument is that the Isrealis got what was coming to them for their imperalistic actions.

[De4dEyE]

AHVB, the fact that they were abducted on the lebanese side of the border seems very important for your argument. Where exactly are you getting this information? Where were these soldiers abducted from? As far as I've read they were captured near Zarit which is still within Israeli borders.

Yeah, everything I've read says they were on the Israeli side.

[NG1313]

If the state housing the terrorists is not doing anything to stop this, they are by de facto consenting to the actions of this group.

You morons got too much propaganda fed to you.

Everybody keeps saying this and that, whatever... the bottom line is that land is occupied and people are terrorized (by Israelis).

And you have it stuck in your heads that Israel is right. Why?

[ninjabastard]

You morons got too much propaganda fed to you.

Everybody keeps saying this and that, whatever... the bottom line is that land is occupied and people are terrorized (by Israelis).

And you have it stuck in your heads that Israel is right. Why?
Umm... I'm restating some of the just war doctrine you fucking retard. So really, how stupid are you? A state as a sovereign entity is responsible for what happens within its boarders. I actually gave it a little less emphasis since I think if the government at least makes an effort they should not be responsable.

Let's flip this around, what makes you think Isreal is wrong?

I will say I think both sides have done stupid shit though.

[AHVB]

AHVB, the fact that they were abducted on the lebanese side of the border seems very important for your argument. Where exactly are you getting this information? Where were these soldiers abducted from? As far as I've read they were captured near Zarit which is still within Israeli borders.

Geography major AHVB, read this: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738310.html

Look back a few pages.

Also that article is making the false claims about Iran and hezbollah. A claim that is complete bullshit. I'm putting you on ignore dude, you're like a woman. You have a pre-determined agenda and belief, and you nitpick small details to support your beliefs while at the same time ignoring any facts that would prove you wrong.

[AdverseSolutions]

This article? http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

Which has no claims on the location of where the soldiers were located whatsoever. So you have NO facts to back up your argument, just a random speculative article. Yes you'll definitely put me on ignore because I remind you of what an idiot you are. I've already stated that I don't take sides in the conflict and object in very specific ways to what Israel is doing. I think a ceasefire in Lebanon is in the interest of everyone. I'm just not going to sit here and watch you and others make excuses for Hezbollah, a despicable armed racket that has on its record among other things the massacre of Jews at two community centers in south America in the mid-1990s. These are the people you cheer on and it shows what side you're on and have always been on.

[ninjabastard]

I'm putting you on ignore dude, you're like a woman. You have a pre-determined agenda and belief, and you nitpick small details to support your beliefs while at the same time ignoring any facts that would prove you wrong.
People in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones.

[Clear Sky]

It should also be noted that this bombing campaign was planned a very long time ago, so how can this be seen as legitimate, let alone necessary?

What's wrong with making war plans for possible campaigns? The pentagon does it all the time even though they might never use them. Like the one they did on Canada. :looney:

[supabeast]

Interesting thread so far. I guess the media isn't showing you this in America...


I've been watching live coverage on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC on and off for much of the day. I've seen much worse footage of the devastation on all three networks.


Jesus christ are you retarted? the president of Iran never said that. I already proved that earlier in the thread.

Islamo-Facist? jesus christ that's a retarted term. The term Islamo Facist is completely Oxymoronic.

And what does anti-semitism have anything to do with this thread?

At least I know that the correct spelling is retarded. And one crazed nitwit babbling about conspiracies proves nothing.

Islamo-fascist is in no way an oxymoron - it's simply a term used to describe fascist states run by Muslim theocrats, eg. Iran, Syria, Oman, The United Arab Emirates, Quatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and similar states. Perhaps it would be easier for you if I broke it down and used a simpler, monosyllabic term, but I don't know of any.

[AHVB]

Islamo-fascist is in no way an oxymoron - it's simply a term used to describe fascist states run by Muslim theocrats, eg. Iran, Syria, Oman, The United Arab Emirates, Quatar, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and similar states. Perhaps it would be easier for you if I broke it down and used a simpler, monosyllabic term, but I don't know of any.

Great, attack my spelling, completely disregard the facts. How are any of those regimes fascist?

[Muskau]

So this thread has turned into a nitpicking babblewar? Remember when Iraqi militants kidnapped that american businessman? And he came home fine after a while. And America has been fighting a war over there.

Now Israel gets one of its soldiers kidnapped and they decide the proper response is to launch missiles and bombs against the entire city? I wonder if they will ever get the soldier back now?

Anyone who can justify the whole situation in the middle east as NOT the fault of Israel or America needs to have their head checked. The UN can't do shit except read speeches that they condemn the attacks because the US has vetoed anything to do regarding the conflict.

Basically if you look at the map of the middle east right now there is a line running to Iran
through Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. I wonder if Israel is going to become like a Petrol Depot for the Western world? Sure would help the US in not having to bow to other countries just because they control the energy resources.

The fact that the US government lied about Iraq, is basically staying there for god knows what reason, and allows Israel to attack who ever they want without a peep when they are denouncing other countries for even having weapons to defend themselves with, is just pathetic really. And anyone who defends it I also find pathetic.

And why is it whenever I see a terrorist group reading some message on the news they never translate it? I sure would like to know what they say, without just paraphrases from journalists like "He said they were responsible for the attacks and also 'Praise Allah'" And honestly thats the most in-depth translation I've ever heard from a news network.

If you actually want to make up opinions on stuff regarding the middle east its best if you actually do some research on the Balfour Declaration, and other western policies in the middle east and I think you'll find that western policies and the installment of Israel has been a large part of the current and recent conflicts in the middle east.

[Javid]

Better refer to me as "his excellency" as well then.

edit: or actually... all praise is due to god :P

Ahh, brother your anti-Shia sentiments never get old:wink: I think you know what I meant, yet you completely turn it around. But let's not go there right now. This thread isn't about this age old archaic argument we're having right now.

And I just saw the pictures of the Canadian family killed on the CBC. They were mostly kids. I back this statement fully:

Canadian Arab Federation Press release:

"The Canadian Arab Federation holds Prime Minister Stephen Harper responsible for the death of 8 Canadians in Lebanon.

While Israel was bombarding Lebanon, terrorizing and killing civilians and destroying the infrastructure of the country, Harper appallingly was quoted a saying that these Israeli war crimes are a "measured response" to the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers.

It is outrageous that a Canadian Prime Minister would justify Israel's brutal assault against Lebanon when such action has resulted in the death of hundreds of Lebanese civilians including the murder of 8 Canadians.

The Canadian Arab Federation will be holding a press conference within 48 hours to condemn Harper's support for Israel which emboldened it to continue committing war crimes against the Lebanese people."

Also, I would like to point out that the argument the Israeli's are making about weaponary being supplied by Iran and Syria is a Red herring. If Iran and Syria are to blame for the weapons being used to hurt the Israeli's, than surely one can also state the American's are to blame for the death and destruction in Lebanon, since it is mostly(if not all) American weaponary that the state of Israel is using.

[thurst]

lol who cares what the canadian arab federation thinks

...seriously

[De4dEyE]

lol who cares what the canadian arab federation thinks

...seriously

I'm of mind to agree with this. I'm not familiar with the workings of the C.A.F., but I'm not sure they can do anything but 'condemn' someones actions.. which has little to no effect, anywhere in the world.

[Muskau]

I'm of mind to agree with this. I'm not familiar with the workings of the C.A.F., but I'm not sure they can do anything but 'condemn' someones actions.. which has little to no effect, anywhere in the world.

LOL you can tell that to the UN council

[De4dEyE]

LOL you can tell that to the UN council

I've heard them 'condemn' things all the god damn time. The only time something happens is when a resolution is actually passed. Condemning doesn't do jack shit. :rolleyes:

[Weeks]

I like how they took like two hours to even agree on a statement...damn useless committees can never decide SHIT

[Weeks]

Yet, they were official enough for Israel to attack an entire fucking country over one of the groups transgresions.

Check it out man: If some guy is taking potshots at me from your house, and you can't/won't do anything about it, I guess bombing your house is the only thing I can do

Or move

[The Grey Area]

Check it out man: If some guy is taking potshots at me from your house, and you can't/won't do anything about it, I guess bombing your house is the only thing I can do

Or move


I understand that but I look at it in the same way that I look at the US's actions in Afganistan(sp?) We did not go apeshit on innocents. We targeted the ones fostering the terrorists, took them down and did our best to minimize collateral damage. Isreal seems to be using collateral damage as it's means to get a point across.

I just hate how an obviously powerful government is allowed to get away with shit like this. We would be universally panned for going tit for tat with terrorists. I hate the way that Israel likes to portray themselves as victims and I fear that they are going to get them entire world involved in some shit that they could have taken care of a long time ago.

[Weeks]

Well from my understanding, Hezbollah is using apartment buildings in civilian places to launch missiles at Haifa and such, counting on Israel to be like the USA and avoid all possible civilian casualties.

Israel however just warned all civilians to leave and then retaliated against those missile targets, regardless of whether or not they were in residential areas. Can you really say that's a terrible thing to do?

[AHVB]

Well from my understanding, Hezbollah is using apartment buildings in civilian places to launch missiles at Haifa and such, counting on Israel to be like the USA and avoid all possible civilian casualties.

Israel however just warned all civilians to leave and then retaliated against those missile targets, regardless of whether or not they were in residential areas. Can you really say that's a terrible thing to do?

If they were on rooftops, then they could've used fighter helicopters. You know, the ones you and I paid for.

[De4dEyE]

If they were on rooftops, then they could've used fighter helicopters. You know, the ones you and I paid for.

Israel freaks out when one of their soldiers die.. from their viewpoint a missile strike would be the better option.

[The Grey Area]

Well, in the coming days I hope that the violence gets contained a little better. I never heard of any warnings and from an American perspective I can't really condone bombing when you are capeable of sending guys in who can discern a child from a terrorist. In principal, no, I can't say I blame them. Though I do not believe that Isreal is faultless in this entire ordeal, it is hard for me to think of these guys as freedom fighters when they hide and fire missles at innocents. Untill they amass a force and start attacking the government that they feel is oppresive as opposed to it's people, I can't see them as anything more than terrorists.

[thurst]

snip

your argument fails on multiple levels, i'll just leave it at that bcuz ninjabastard pretty much nailed the point.

[De4dEyE]

Well, as I see it:

Israel is using this kidnapping to have some sort of excuse to unleash their entire military to crush an area that's been a danger to them for quite some time [not the entire country of Lebanon, just the Hezbollah controlled part], and are taking things much further than they should [extremely obvious].

However, like The Grey Area said, these 'freedom fighters' are not blameless either.

Both sides are fucking up, and I feel this will only get worse, as Syria and Iran are close to getting involved [Both countries have pledged support to Lebanon IIRC, and Iran is taunting Israel to hit them.. it's like they're asking for it.. maybe they have an ace, dunno].

[AHVB]

your argument fails on multiple levels, i'll just leave it at that bcuz ninjabastard pretty much nailed the point.

Sure it does.

[The Iron Sheik]

Judging from all the casualties that are happening, I say that Israel is just bombing randomly, hoping they knock out Hizbollah headquarters and showing little to no regard for all the civilian casualties. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. Their only "targeted" bombings were the ones where they destroyed practically every main road and main bridge, isolating Lebanon from the rest of the world.

The agenda is alot more clear now seeing how they're practically putting Lebanon to seige. Israel are just a bunch of cowards. If they KNOW that Syria and Iran are backing them with weaponry, why don't they go ahead and remove the problem from it's roots rather than put an innocent country into seige. They don't give a shit about the Lebanese people. For all they care, they're filling their propeganda in the Lebanese people's minds to show them that Hezbollah is the cause for this misfortune and they'll just let the civilians/Hezbollah rip each other apart like caged animals, and set that country back 1000 years the same way the US did to Afghanistan and Iraq.

It wasn't about the soldiers to begin with. If that was the case, they would have made an even bigger deal on Ron Arad and would have done a much more intensive infiltration job for him since he was ALOT more valuable to them then these two soldiers which they basically put out into the open to get caught the way they did.

Blast me for how I see things, I don't give a fuck. The purpose of a message board is to express your opinion on certain matters. But I've seen ins and outs and I know how propeganda plays in these parts. Just remember this, and mark my words. The truth will start leaking out 50 years later from now when noone gives a shit just like every other operation that has been planned and been done in the past.

If they have the power to manipulate news broadcasts in their favor, making every headline on every newspaper "israel this israel that", then they surely have the power to hide a bunch of shit and spread all sorts of blatant lies only to be proven as falsehood way down the road. Want proof that they manipulate the news to their liking? How many of you know about the Tropical Storm that's happening in China now which is killing dozens or about the Tsunami that hit Indonesia which killed scores?

[AdverseSolutions]

Or the train explosions in Mubai that killed 150. Iron Sheik, I agree with what you're writing. The Lebanon campaign already seems to be totally in breach of its stated aims which are the destruction of the Hezbollah infrastructure (something I would agree with, though I think that move has to come from Lebanese). This is all done in the logic of 'collective punishment'. 'How else will they learn?' No one realizes that the ugly organizations fueling this conflict are saying the same thing on both sides of the fence, it's all one variation on the idea of collective punishment. The Al Queda cell that brought jet liners into the twin towers and elsewhere had the same intentions for sure. 'This will teach them'.

[The Iron Sheik]

It's still in huge debate on who really did the 9/11, for gods sake, they still refer to Osama bin Laden as "Prime Suspect". But that's not the point in question now.

Thing is, you can't compare Al-Qaeda to Hezbollah (or to a more extreme extent, Hamas). Al-Qaeda is a worldwide cell-operated organization which have very strange goals and perform covert operations which can be classified as terrorism since their operations are aimed against civilians wherever. See the problem is ever since Al-Qaeda has been somewhat defined, every resistance group (whether Hamas or Hezbollah) towards the covert actions of the west are being thrown under that umbrella which is completely unfair.

You see, Lebenon never had a strong military force to begin with. If it wasn't for Syrian intervention during the civil war in the 80's, Lebanon would look alot like the way it does today. Once Syria was forced out (after being accused that they were the ones who were behind the murder of Rafik El-Hariri, which is still another debateable subject), they're only left with Hezbollah. Hezbollah is basically Lebanon's strong military force which have been actually maintaining order on the borders between Lebanon and Israel. If Hezbollah goes, Lebanon will either crumble under it's own civil population or another force will have to intervene to maintain order, which could most likely be France or another Western power.

oh and for the record, eye witnesses (friends of mine in india) told me that the number of people that died in Mumbai was ridiculously underexaggerated and the number is closer to almost 1000 civilians who were killed.

[The Iron Sheik]

Oh and sorry for the double post, but here's your "targeted aimings" and "minimum civilian casualties:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/3.1.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/7.1.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/5.2.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/2.4.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/4.0.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2110/565/1600/1.2.jpg

And a post from a blogger. I couldn't have put it in any better way:


Yesterday I was passing through the student center, and the television happened to be turned on CNN.
I didn’t stop. I walked by.
“Hezbollah are clearly in breach of international law here, Anderson.”
“Kiss Ekhtak”
Who just shouted? There’s no one else around. It was me.
I am glad I don’t have cable in my apartment.

Visions of Iraq.
Visions of Palestine.

Listen.
We’re not stupid.
Hezbollah doesn’t get its weapons supplies from Jounieh port. Or from Beirut international airport. Or from Batroun.
The 20 dead in Marwahin were not hit by mistake yesterday. Nor were the victims of today.
They’re not massacring us to pressure the government to act. They know the government is powerless. They’re not stupid either.

This is not about two soldiers. It was planned long before.

They’re punishing us. They’re collectively punishing us for not bending over like so many stronger people have done before. They’re punishing us for resisting them, for saying no, for standing up. They’re punishing us for kicking them out in 2000.

They want to break us. They want us to beg them for mercy; they want us to turn against each other.

Listen.

Hezbollah did not murder 116 Lebanese civilians. Israel did.
Hezbollah did not destroy Haret Hreik. Israel did.
Hezbollah did not cut us from the rest of the world. Israel did.
Wake up. Forget that Hezbollah are Shias. We’re all targeted.

This is what Israel is saying: “Look, you can’t resist. We know we occupy your land and breach your sovereignty whenever it pleases us. We know we illegally operate in your country, assassinate people, and kidnap fishermen, and murder entire families “by mistake”. We don’t give a fuck. We’re much, much stronger than you. You can’t exercise your legal right to resist our injustice. If you dare resist, we’ll break you. You have to shut the fuck up and live by our own terms. You have to disarm your own resistance, and ensure our own security.”

Listen.

You can’t destroy a resistance. As long as there’s injustice, there will be a resistance. It’s not going away. You can shell us for ten years, it’s not going away.

Everybody’s against us. Nobody will help.
The sky is raining death.
We can’t do anything about it; it’s not the first time.

Listen.

Don’t believe appearances, we’re a strong people.
You blow up airports, ports, buildings, and infrastructure. It hurts, but we’ll build them again. We’ll move on.
You kill many of us. It’s atrocious, it’s unbearable. We’ll never forget them, and we’ll never forget what you’ve done. And we’ll move on.

You’ll give up first. And you’ll negotiate. And you won't have accomplished anything. Except a lot of killing and destruction. Except making us hate you more.

Long live Lebanon.

[recon_zero]

Judging from all the casualties that are happening, I say that Israel is just bombing randomly, hoping they knock out Hizbollah headquarters and showing little to no regard for all the civilian casualties. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. Their only "targeted" bombings were the ones where they destroyed practically every main road and main bridge, isolating Lebanon from the rest of the world.

Like destroying an airport and killing hundrends will be a reason for "the evil guys that have the Israeli soldiers" be freed.

I mean, it's too damn perfect for Israel. But if no one can stop them, who will?

[AHVB]

Israel has sent ground troops and quickly pulled them out.

[majeh]

all i gotta say is.. ISRAEL IS KICKING SOME ASS FOR ONCE

[hanz0]

all i know is that most( not all) people from israel are big drama-queens and they bitch about everything and i mean everything, and they treat others like they are dirt. I know this cause i deal with them everyday.:looney: :wasted:

[R.P.D rookie]

Israel has sent ground troops and quickly pulled them out.



I saw that on aol news. Why the turn around on the pull out?

[TiamatRoar]

Anyone who refers to a ruler as "his excellency" in a political debate should have all his opinions written off right off the bat.


I'm putting you on ignore dude, you're like a woman. You have a pre-determined agenda and belief, and you nitpick small details to support your beliefs while at the same time ignoring any facts that would prove you wrong.

Sexist pig. Anyone who makes comments like this are also unworthy of attention no matter how much they spam the thread with (mostly obscenely stupid) beliefs.


Sometimes they might actually SOUND reasonable, but quotes and sayings like the above show that it's a sinister ruse. By ignoring people like these, you can protect both your brain cells and your morals from the law of diffusion.

[Serpent]

Sexist pig. Anyone who makes comments like this are also unworthy of attention no matter how much they spam the thread with (mostly obscenely stupid) beliefs.


Sometimes they might actually SOUND reasonable, but quotes and sayings like the above show that it's a sinister ruse. By ignoring people like these, you can protect both your brain cells and your morals from the law of diffusion.

Haha sexist for telling the truth? This is my problem with PC and feminism in general. In law the truth is a bar for anything, but in the socialist matriarchy feminist state, you're punished for making accurate observations and using the truth instead of spouting the accepted party line. You're a communist. Anyone that believes people should be silenced because they don't agree with you is unworthy of attention, no matter how much they post with (always obscenely stupid) beliefs.

If he had made fun of men in some way, you'd probably be the first to laugh and agree, but since it's targeted at a precious member of the female sex, you can't have that. You wimp.

[AdverseSolutions]

If he had made fun of men in some way, you'd probably be the first to laugh and agree, but since it's targeted at a precious member of the female sex, you can't have that. You wimp.

It must be incredible to be the one who always gets to make the most offensive statements, like a hairy fat man who jumps into the kids pool to make a big splash and assert himself. Guess what? We don't care if you've got some special theory about how women are scum. Go hyphy on your fleshlight, you'll always have that option.

[Akelexre]

From Strategic Forecasting, Inc. I've heard they reply to comment and question e-mails.




Subject: Stratfor Red Alert - Breaking Intelligence

Stratfor: Alerts - July 17, 2006

Red Alert: A Diplomatic Interlude

There is increasing discussion of a cease-fire between Israel and
Lebanon. French Prime Minister Dominic de Villepin is in Beirut to
discuss it. The Israelis say they are talking to the Italians about
it, and even the Iranians have said that they favor a cease-fire.
Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said today, "A
reasonable and just solution must be found to end this crisis. A
cease-fire and then a swap is achievable." That is quite a distance
for the Iranians to have gone.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert listed three demands for a
cease-fire: first, the release of captured soldiers; second, an end
to rocket attacks on Israel; and third, the deployment of Lebanese
Army troops along the Israeli-Lebanese border. Other diplomats have
been talking about an international force along the border.

The first two demands can easily be met. It is the third one that
will be the sticking point because it goes to the heart of the
issue. When Israel talks of the Lebanese Army being deployed there,
it is saying two things. The first is that it doesn't trust an
international force containing troops from countries like Russia
and France. It does not believe they will be neutral. Second, if a
Lebanese force is deployed, it must be able to impose its will on
Hezbollah, through military action if possible.

The problem is that the Lebanese Army is not in a position,
politically or militarily, to control Hezbollah. If it could do so,
it would have. Moreover, if the army were able to impose its will,
Hezbollah would cease to be an effective group. Hezbollah's power
comes from its military capabilities and autonomy. Israel's demand
would represent the end of Hezbollah in its current form. Israel
does not trust a suspension of Hezbollah attacks; they believe the
militants will strike again unless someone can guarantee otherwise.
Israel's call for a Lebanese force that can impose its will on
Hezbollah is a contradiction in terms. It is an offer of a
cease-fire that can't be delivered.

Israel is, however, interested in continuing the diplomatic
process. Its reasoning can be seen from reports Stratfor has
received from sources close to Hezbollah. They have said that
Hezbollah is maintaining its attacks on Israel because the
militants want Israel to attack them on the ground sooner rather
than later. Over time, they fear, Hezbollah's ability to resist
Israeli attack will be undermined by airstrikes. The militants'
command and control, communications, weapons stockpiles and morale
will be undermined. On the other hand, if Israel were to attack
now, Hezbollah's leadership is confident that it could impose
losses on Israeli troops that would be unacceptable. That is what
the militants want to achieve -- they want to engage Israel as the
first Arab force that, even if it can't win in the end, can
severely damage the Israel Defense Forces.

If that is actually Hezbollah's thinking -- and that would explain
their behavior -- then we can also better understand Israeli
thinking. If the airstrikes are hurting Hezbollah's morale and
infrastructure, there is no reason to hurry in on the ground. It
makes more sense to let the current situation continue even if it
means further attacks on Israeli targets. In the meantime, Tel Aviv
can engage in diplomatic initiatives that will reposition Israel in
the international system. Rather than resisting diplomatic efforts,
Israel is participating, setting demands that appear extremely
reasonable while being unattainable. While that game goes on, so
does the air war and the undermining of Hezbollah's core strength.

The problem is that Hezbollah can see this happening. That means it
must try to increase its attacks to create a political crisis in
Israel. Olmert is under a microscope. There is suspicion that he
will be sucked into a diplomatic solution that will not only not
deal with the Hezbollah threat, but also make it impossible to
attack the militants later if they resume attacks. In this
scenario, an international presence is forced on Israel, Hezbollah
resumes attacks without the international force taking decisive
action, and Israel is forced to either do nothing or attack through
the international force.

In other words, there is a trap for Israel in all of this. If it
gets too clever on the diplomatic side, it can wind up in trouble.
On the other hand, a diplomatic process gives Israel time to do
what Hezbollah wants least: an air war designed to impose attrition
on them.

We have not expected the Israelis to accept bombardment for as long
as they have. However, if Hezbollah's view is correct, it is good
military strategy and the Israeli public will accept that. It may
force Hezbollah to make serious concessions under pressure to
preserve the cohesiveness of its force. But if the diplomatic game
results in extended attacks on Israel without action, or results in
a cease-fire that does not preclude a resumption of attacks, then
Olmert will come under dramatic pressure and will lose his room for
maneuver.

Olmert knows this, of course. He has managed the internal politics
skillfully to this point. He can probably play diplomatic games for
another 48 hours by implying military necessity to his Cabinet. But
then it starts to become very dicey politically. And by then,
Hezbollah's attacks will have become intolerable, and attacking --
whatever the condition of Hezbollah -- will become essential.

Neither an international force nor the Lebanese Army (with its
current capabilities) protecting Israel from Hezbollah attacks will
fly in Israel.

Send questions or comments on this article to
analysis@stratfor.com.

[AHVB]

Anyone who refers to a ruler as "his excellency" in a political debate should have all his opinions written off right off the bat.



Sexist pig. Anyone who makes comments like this are also unworthy of attention no matter how much they spam the thread with (mostly obscenely stupid) beliefs.


Sometimes they might actually SOUND reasonable, but quotes and sayings like the above show that it's a sinister ruse. By ignoring people like these, you can protect both your brain cells and your morals from the law of diffusion.

Oh shut the fuck up bitch. I'm not sexist.

Also after reading the Israels demands in the above post. Eh, they're not so bad. That doesnt take away from the fact that Israel is still wrong in the actions that she is taking with regards to this matter. Talk about killing an ant with a sledgehammer, sheesh.

[Akelexre]

Stratfor discussing Israel's response.

(Note: Stratfor sends out weekly e-mails on various subjects (terrorism, public policy, etc.) for free, one can subscribe on their website if there is interest. Also, I've heard they do respond to critcism; all of the writers I've read from them seem to be quite pragmatic and would probably respond to any reasoned and informed counter argument, so feel free!)


Subject: Stratfor Red Alert - Breaking Intelligence

Stratfor: Alerts - July 13, 2006

Middle East Crisis: Backgrounder

Israel lives with three realities: geographic, demographic and
cultural. Geographically, it is at a permanent disadvantage,
lacking strategic depth. It does enjoy the advantage of interior
lines -- the ability to move forces rapidly from one front to
another. Demographically, it is on the whole outnumbered, although
it can achieve local superiority in numbers by choosing the time
and place of war. Its greatest advantage is cultural. It has a far
greater mastery of the technology and culture of war than its
neighbors.

Two of the realities cannot be changed. Nothing can be done about
geography or demography. Culture can be changed. It is not
inherently the case that Israel will have a technological or
operational advantage over its neighbors. The great inherent fear
of Israel is that the Arabs will equal or surpass Israeli prowess
culturally and therefore militarily. If that were to happen, then
all three realities would turn against Israel and Israel might well
be at risk.

That is why the capture of Israeli troops, first one in the south,
then two in the north, has galvanized Israel. The kidnappings
represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the
Israeli domain. They also represent a level of tactical slackness
on the Israeli side that was previously the Arab domain. These
events hardly represent a fundamental shift in the balance of
power. Nevertheless, for a country that depends on its cultural
superiority, any tremor in this variable reverberates dramatically.
Hamas and Hezbollah have struck the core Israeli nerve. Israel
cannot ignore it.

Embedded in Israel's demographic problem is this: Israel has
national security requirements that outstrip its manpower base. It
can field a sufficient army, but its industrial base cannot supply
all of the weapons needed to fight high-intensity conflicts. This
means it is always dependent on an outside source for its
industrial base and must align its policies with that source. At
first this was the Soviets, then France and finally the United
States. Israel broke with the Soviets and France when their
political demands became too intense. It was after 1967 that it
entered into a patron-client relationship with the United States.
This relationship is its strength and its weakness. It gives the
Israelis the systems they need for national security, but since
U.S. and Israeli interests diverge, the relationship constrains
Israel's range of action.

During the Cold War, the United States relied on Israel for a
critical geopolitical function. The fundamental U.S. interest was
Turkey, which controlled the Bosporus and kept the Soviet fleet
under control in the Mediterranean. The emergence of Soviet
influence in Syria and Iraq -- which was not driven by U.S. support
for Israel since the United States did not provide all that much
support compared to France -- threatened Turkey with attack from
two directions, north and south. Turkey could not survive this.
Israel drew Syrian attention away from Turkey by threatening
Damascus and drawing forces and Soviet equipment away from the
Turkish frontier. Israel helped secure Turkey and turned a Soviet
investment into a dry hole.

Once Egypt signed a treaty with Israel and Sinai became a buffer
zone, Israel became safe from a full peripheral war -- everyone
attacking at the same time. Jordan was not going to launch an
attack and Syria by itself could not strike. The danger to Israel
became Palestinian operations inside of Israel and the occupied
territories and the threat posed from Lebanon by the
Syrian-sponsored group Hezbollah.

In 1982, Israel responded to this threat by invading Lebanon. It
moved as far north as Beirut and the mountains east and northeast
of it. Israel did not invade Beirut proper, since Israeli forces do
not like urban warfare as it imposes too high a rate of attrition.
But what the Israelis found was low-rate attrition. Throughout
their occupation of Lebanon, they were constantly experiencing
guerrilla attacks, particularly from Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has two patrons: Syria and Iran . The Syrians have used
Hezbollah to pursue their political and business interests in
Lebanon. Iran has used Hezbollah for business and ideological
reasons. Business interests were the overlapping element. In the
interest of business, it became important to Hezbollah, Syria and
Iran that an accommodation be reached with Israel. Israel wanted to
withdraw from Lebanon in order to end the constant low-level combat
and losses.

Israel withdrew in 1988, having reached quiet understandings with
Syria that Damascus would take responsibility for Hezbollah, in
return for which Israel would not object to Syrian domination of
Lebanon. Iran, deep in its war with Iraq, was not in a position to
object if it had wanted to. Israel returned to its borders in the
north, maintaining a security presence in the south of Lebanon that
lasted for several years.

As Lebanon blossomed and Syria's hold on it loosened, Iran also
began to increase its regional influence. Its hold on some elements
of Hezbollah strengthened, and in recent months, Hezbollah --
aligning itself with Iranian Shiite ideology -- has become more
aggressive. Iranian weapons were provided to Hezbollah, and
tensions grew along the frontier. This culminated in the capture of
two soldiers in the north and the current crisis.

It is difficult to overestimate the impact of the soldier
kidnappings on the Israeli psyche. First, while the Israeli
military is extremely highly trained, Israel is also a country with
mass conscription. Having a soldier kidnapped by Arabs hits every
family in the country. The older generation is shocked and outraged
that members of the younger generation have been captured and
worried that they allowed themselves to be captured; therefore, the
younger generation needs to prove it too can defeat the Arabs. This
is not a primary driver, but it is a dimension.

The more fundamental issue is this: Israel withdrew from Lebanon in
order to escape low-intensity conflict. If Hezbollah is now going
to impose low-intensity conflict on Israel's border, the rationale
for withdrawal disappears. It is better for Israel to fight deep in
Lebanon than inside Israel. If the rockets are going to fall in
Israel proper, then moving into a forward posture has no cost to
Israel.

>From an international standpoint, the Israelis expect to be
condemned. These international condemnations, however, are now
having the opposite effect of what is intended. The Israeli view is
that they will be condemned regardless of what they do. The
differential between the condemnation of reprisal attacks and
condemnation of a full invasion is not enough to deter more extreme
action. If Israel is going to be attacked anyway, it might as well
achieve its goals.

Moreover, an invasion of Hezbollah-held territory aligns Israel
with the United States. U.S. intelligence has been extremely
concerned about the growing activity of Hezbollah, and U.S.
relations with Iran are not good. Lebanon is the center of gravity
of Hezbollah, and the destruction of Hezbollah capabilities in
Lebanon, particularly the command structure, would cripple
Hezbollah operations globally in the near future. The United States
would very much like to see that happen, but cannot do it itself.
Moreover, an Israeli action would enrage the Islamic world, but it
would also drive home the limits of Iranian power. Once again, Iran
would have dropped Lebanon in the grease, and not been hurt itself.
The lesson of Hezbollah would not be lost on the Iraqi Shia -- or
so the Bush administration would hope.

Therefore, this is one Israeli action that benefits the United
States, and thus helps the immediate situation as well as long-term
geopolitical alignments. It realigns the United States and Israel.
This also argues that any invasion must be devastating to
Hezbollah. It must go deep. It must occupy temporarily. It must
shatter Hezbollah.

At this point, the Israelis appear to be unrolling a war plan in
this direction. They have blockaded the Lebanese coast. Israeli
aircraft are attacking what air power there is in Lebanon, and have
attacked Hezbollah and other key command-and-control
infrastructure. It would follow that the Israelis will now
concentrate on destroying Hezbollah -- and Lebanese --
communications capabilities and attacking munitions dumps, vehicle
sites, rocket-storage areas and so forth.

Most important, Israel is calling up its reserves. This is never a
symbolic gesture in Israel. All Israelis below middle age are in
the reserves and mobilization is costly in every sense of the word.
If the Israelis were planning a routine reprisal, they would not be
mobilizing. But they are, which means they are planning to do
substantially more than retributive airstrikes. The question is
what their plan is.

Given the blockade and what appears to be the shape of the
airstrikes, it seems to us at the moment the Israelis are planning
to go fairly deep into Lebanon. The logical first step is a move to
the Litani River in southern Lebanon. But given the missile attacks
on Haifa, they will go farther, not only to attack launcher sites,
but to get rid of weapons caches. This means a move deep into the
Bekaa Valley, the seat of Hezbollah power and the location of
plants and facilities. Such a penetration would leave Israeli
forces' left flank open, so a move into Bekaa would likely be
accompanied by attacks to the west. It would bring the Israelis
close to Beirut again.

This leaves Israel's right flank exposed, and that exposure is to
Syria. The Israeli doctrine is that leaving Syrian airpower intact
while operating in Lebanon is dangerous. Therefore, Israel must at
least be considering using its air force to attack Syrian
facilities, unless it gets ironclad assurances the Syrians will not
intervene in any way. Conversations are going on between Egypt and
Syria, and we suspect this is the subject. But Israel would not
necessarily object to the opportunity of eliminating Syrian air
power as part of its operation, or if Syria chooses, going even
further.

At the same time, Israel does not intend to get bogged down in
Lebanon again. It will want to go in, wreak havoc, withdraw. That
means it will go deeper and faster, and be more devastating, than
if it were planning a long-term occupation. It will go in to
liquidate Hezbollah and then leave. True, this is no final
solution, but for the Israelis, there are no final solutions.

Israeli forces are already in Lebanon. Its special forces are
inside identifying targets for airstrikes. We expect numerous air
attacks over the next 48 hours, as well as reports of firefights in
southern Lebanon. We also expect more rocket attacks on Israel.

It will take several days to mount a full invasion of Lebanon. We
would not expect major operations before the weekend at the
earliest. If the rocket attacks are taking place, however, Israel
might send several brigades to the Litani River almost immediately
in order to move the rockets out of range of Haifa. Therefore, we
would expect a rapid operation in the next 24-48 hours followed by
a larger force later.

At this point, the only thing that can prevent this would be a
major intervention by Syria with real guarantees that it would
restrain Hezbollah and indications such operations are under way.
Syria is the key to a peaceful resolution. Syria must calculate the
relative risks, and we expect them to be unwilling to act
decisively.

Therefore:

1. Israel cannot tolerate an insurgency on its northern frontier;
if there is one, it wants it farther north.

2. It cannot tolerate attacks on Haifa.

3. It cannot endure a crisis of confidence in its military

4. Hezbollah cannot back off of its engagement with Israel.

5. Syria can stop this, but the cost to it stopping it is higher
than the cost of letting it go on.

It would appear Israel will invade Lebanon. The global response
will be noisy. There will be no substantial international action
against Israel. Beirut's tourism and transportation industry, as
well as its financial sectors, are very much at risk.

Send questions or comments on this article to
analysis@stratfor.com.

[Javid]

Johh Bolton is officially nuts:

Lebanon civilian deaths morally not same as "terror victims" -- Bolton

By Agence France Presse

07/17/06 -- - UNITED NATIONS (AFP) - US Ambassador John Bolton said there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from "malicious terrorist acts".

Asked to comment on the deaths in an Israeli air strike of eight Canadian citizens in southern Lebanon Sunday, he said: "it is a matter of great concern to us ...that these civilian deaths are occurring. It's a tragedy."

"I think it would be a mistake to ascribe moral equivalence to civilians who die as the direct result of malicious terrorist acts," he added, while defending as "self-defense" Israel's military action, which has had "the tragic and unfortunate consequence of civilian deaths".

The eight dead Canadians were a Lebanese-Canadian couple, their four children, his mother and an uncle, said relatives in Montreal.

The Montreal pharmacist and his family had arrived in Lebanon 10 days earlier for a vacation in his parents' home village and to introduce his children to relatives, they said.

Three of his Lebanese relatives died too, a family member told AFP.

"It's simply not the same thing to say that it's the same act to deliberately target innocent civilians, to desire their deaths, to fire rockets and use explosive devices or kidnapping versus the sad and highly unfortunate consequences of self-defense," Bolton noted.

The overall civilian death toll from the Israeli onslaught in Lebanon since last Wednesday reached 195, in addition to 12 soldiers, officials said. Twenty-four Israelis have also been killed since fighting began last Wednesday, including 12 civilians in a barrage of Hezbollah rocket fire across the border.

Copyright © 2006 Agence France Presse

[AHVB]

Of course, when you have Israels hand up your ass, you'd say anything that would make Israel look good. Including the death of innocent people on Israels behalf.

AIPAC, taking over america's foreign policy, one Politician at a time.

[ninjabastard]

Can you fuckers do something besides copying and pasting shit? No one is going to read all these fucking long and boring news articles. If you're going to post articles, at least quote the important sections and link the orginal. But, only posting articles from mostly unaccredited sources doesn't make you look smart.

[AHVB]

Also my issue is:

Why the hell hasnt the president ordered a cease-fire on israels behalf at LEAST until the american nationals are taken out of the country. Which reminds me, Why is it that virtually every country has taken it's nationals out of lebanon, yet only 28 american nationals have been evacuated? What the fuck is going on?

How "convenient" would it be for Israel/The US if these american nationals were to be killed in a "terrorist" attack? Why are they being left to be killed? Why is Israel Bombing Lebanon KNOWING that american nationals are still there. This is bullshit.

[FistsofFury]

Diplomacy.

Bush chooses not to have dealings with Syria,Iran,Lebannon and others. Chooses not to talk to them. He seems to just leave it to the UN.

Isn't that dumb? Isn't diplomacy about talking to both friends and enemies?

This style of diplomacy seems counter productive as fuck.

[The Iron Sheik]

It's obvious that Bush is oblivious to any sort of history in the middle east. There's no such thing as diplomacy in this picture, just one-sided support and domination of a helpless country.

Here's an interview done by Al-Jazeera with As'ad AbuKhalil. It's a long read, but hopefully it will clear up a lot of misconceptions and give you a scope of how things may unfold in the upcoming weeks:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D259C343-ED88-4C43-B839-BCEFBED61924.htm

[0746]

Who do you think is more vulnerable given the situation?

Iran, or the US troops?
I would think its Iran who is in a more vulnerable state. I think that they are aware of it. US can go North or go South or get people from North and South or at least North to help them if attacked even thou they can't expect help if they are the first ones to attack. Situations on those borderes aren't balanced. There are also troops placed in Afganistan. And Jordan...they already sold themselves. Iran has no one who would and are able to help them in an emergency.

Not only that, Iranian warfare technology is pathetic compared to US. In worst case, they would manage to get a lot of people to go on suicide missions. Things have changed a lot since the last time they were in battlefield. Its no longer war...its murdering. Its amaizing to see how the tables have turned. East used to be the ones with superior warfare strategies and the best cannons which made them the object of fear in Europe for centuries. It was...less than 1000 years ago.

[TiamatRoar]

Oh shut the fuck up bitch. I'm not sexist.

Lots of sexist people don't believe they're sexist. That doesn't make it true.

[AHVB]

Lots of sexist people don't believe they're sexist. That doesn't make it true.


And I take it that your statement is concrete proof that I'm sexist. Haha, jesus christ you have just proved my point of comparing AdverseSolutions to a woman. Sure, regardless of the fact that you have no proof that I'm sexist, your mind was made up from the beginning so now you've just found a retarted reason to support your belief. Talk about self ownage. :rofl: :rofl:

[TiamatRoar]

And I take it that your statement is concrete proof that I'm sexist.

Negative. YOUR statement is concrete proof that you're sexist.

[Muskau]

I still can't believe we are still hearing the whole "Bush is ignorant" "Bush must be stupid" crap. Bush has a whole team of advisors and experts that advise him and suggest of ways to handle things.

The White House knows exactly what its doing, they just want to play PR games. By having Bush as the simple minded shoot-from-the-hip type of President, it just makes people think "Oh that craaazy George Bush is at it again!"

You do realise that Cheney and Rumsfeld have been involved in world politics for 20-30 years now?

[AHVB]

Negative. YOUR statement is concrete proof that you're sexist.

And she continues...

Just stop, please.

[thurst]

props to alexexre with the links

[Naslectronical]

I would think its Iran who is in a more vulnerable state. I think that they are aware of it. US can go North or go South or get people from North and South or at least North to help them if attacked even thou they can't expect help if they are the first ones to attack. Situations on those borderes aren't balanced. There are also troops placed in Afganistan. And Jordan...they already sold themselves. Iran has no one who would and are able to help them in an emergency.

Not only that, Iranian warfare technology is pathetic compared to US. In worst case, they would manage to get a lot of people to go on suicide missions. Things have changed a lot since the last time they were in battlefield. Its no longer war...its murdering. Its amaizing to see how the tables have turned. East used to be the ones with superior warfare strategies and the best cannons which made them the object of fear in Europe for centuries. It was...less than 1000 years ago.

The US cannot afford to fight another war right now. Its military is stretched very thin due to the fact that it's bogged down in Iraq, and the situation would be even worse if it tried to fight another war against a country with four times the land mass and three times the population. The US would probably win the war, eventually, but the casualties would be far higher than they were with Iraq, not to mention that the US would have to stay behind and occupy Iran, and an insurgency in Iran would make the one in Iraq look like a day at the beach.

Besides, Iran doesn't need to use its military to hurt the US. That should be the least of anyone's worries. If Iran wanted to, it could easily use its influence to make the insurgency in Iraq ten times as bad as it is now. The insurgent attacks are coming mostly from the Sunni minority, but Iran could easily change that, hence it is the US troops that are more vulnerable.

If Iran wanted to make life in Iraq even more of a hell for the US, it could.

[Akelexre]

props to alexexre with the links

Thanks.

The only way to have a full grap on the situation at hand is to study the history of the players involved, follow multiple news sources AND think-tank papers.

The history part is solvable with a good encyclopedia and couple of library books (and some college course, if that is an option). Acceptable news sources are easy to find. For those who might be interested in that final aspect:

http://csis.org/ - One of the marquee policy think-tanks in DC, famous for their centrist, pragmatic analysis, particularly by Anthony Cordesman, who is the Jack Bauer of foreign policy analysis. He has multiple, on-topic papers on the front page right now.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html - Spengler is one of the most dynamic, fascinating, and informed analyzer of theo-politics (that is, the effect of religion, both at the local and national level of various countries, on international politics) of this generation. Note that his articles often build on previous ones, therefore going through his archives is practically a must.

http://economist.com/index.html - Speaks for itself. "Red," though I don't always agree with them, is an industry standard in foreign policy circles.

There are plenty of good news sources and analysis out there (I only touched on a few centrist think tanks and magazines). Thank God I live in the time of the Internet. :lovin:

[De4dEyE]

Also my issue is:

Why the hell hasnt the president ordered a cease-fire on israels behalf at LEAST until the american nationals are taken out of the country. Which reminds me, Why is it that virtually every country has taken it's nationals out of lebanon, yet only 28 american nationals have been evacuated? What the fuck is going on?

Well, telling Israel to hold on until all Americans are out, then telling them to go ahead would only fuel even more resentment towards America [which is already so high, that more wouldn't matter].

[ninjabastard]

props to alexexre with the links
Looking over those articles again, yeah they are well written. This guy knows his shit.

And it's nice to know that I'm not the only one reading the economist on SRK. But, I still don't understand why they call it the "Economist" when it's mostly about politics and foriegn policy.