Honda thread

[UnclePepe]

Time for the thread about the golden meatball of Japan!

So yeah, I've been pretty much using solely Honda in ST since I ever picked it up seriously. I've always found he has some great game going if you can ignore his complete inability to deal with fireballs effectively and his relatively slow footsie game.

Honda's biggest problem is to deal with shotos, Sagat and characters who both have a fireball and a good uppercut. He can easily go around characters with weaker fireballs like Chun and Sim however because of their longer frames when they do a fireball, and if done right he can just go and trounce them around once he's evaded one of the fireballs. His best way to deal with fireballs in my opinion is to simply get in range for a short or forward buttstomp and just wait for the new fireball and buttsomp them down. Done in close range, there's no way they can retaliate to it, after which you can just use wakeup to your advantage. And of course, his super goes right through any fireball. The hit will always be blocked but it's a safe move, and even if it hits just once it deals enough damage to put pressure down one someone.

Speaking of wakeup, Honda has a lot of good mixup options for putting someone back down when they wakeup. Forward buttstomp is an overhead and goes pretty fast, standing RH can punish from almost halfway across the screen, short buttstomp can link into anything and is barely punishable unless you see it coming, strong hands deals good chip damage and puts pressure down on an opponent and his best moves hands-down for punishing someone on wakeup is a held grab, that stuff just rapes anyone stupid enough to not see it coming a mile away. His lack of fireballs somewhat limits his longer range wakeup, but he's got enough closerange options to deal with it.

His best air moves are almost all into kicks. Jumping short floats and can also overhead with d+short, jumping d+forward is just an incredible move overall, jumping roundhouse is great for crossups and overhead and has fairly long air-to-air range and decent priority and jumping fierce rapes in close range and goes over fireballs (thanks NKI for showing me that). He's not as air dominant as Blanka and Chun but he can do some great things up there if he's used right.

The big problem I've seen with him is that his footsie game is way too slow and pretty predictable. His good long range footsie moves are standing roundhouse, crouching fierce (I think it's crouching fierce, too lazy to boot my DC and check it out, the one where he trips with his hand), Hands (all versions are good enough), short Headbutt (two hits and almost no recovery!!), back+mk, judo chop in close range against jump-ins and any other punches when putting pressure down.

So yeah, I guess that's it. Hope this sparks some discussion about the fat guy and maybe some big SF2 guy can share some more tactics for him, but I fear I'm the only dedicated Honda fan here :(

But yeah, discuss and stuff.

[r3ko]

Hmm, your whole strat seems very basic and quite suicidal to me. Wheres the proper advancing tactics, buttstomping at mid screen is gonna get you killed fast. Wheres the oochio mix ups, you can;t tell me you don't utilise his best move in someway; loop of doom. Also I'd say a good Chun is one of Honda's hardest matchups, harder than shotos. Also Sagat is probably Hondas easiest Fireball character match. High tigers arent a problem, and you can headbutt over low tigers and since sags limbs stick out far honda can really hit punish him. I would go into great detail, but a friend of mine who taught me Honda is in the midst of writing the ST Honda bible. I've had a sneak peak and its pure gold.

[magitek]

I'm a honda noob, but here's a basic tactic I use, jump-in d.mk or d.lk, crossup or not, you can do a Ohicho throw. After a successful Ochicho throw, its almost a guaranteed dizzy if you managed to hit them again right after; for example, a buttslam or whatever. Some questions I have is whats the difference of using jump-in d.lk as opposed to d.mk and what situations are there that one is prefered over the other? What can I do against a fireball character that zones well such as chun-li?

[r3ko]

err, secrets of Honda your asking there. jumping d.mk(splash) is nearly always preferrable over j.lk. With j.lk you have to be a spot otherwise you'll get thrown for your trouble. As with the splash its easier to connect your stored oochio. If not you can just tap out a MP HHS for chip. j.lk can be quite usefull against guile's sonic boom cause its so thin.

Getting through fireballs is probably one of the hardest things you'll need to learn with Honda. At long range you can buttstomp and land pretty safe even with the mk version, be careful of sweeps though. You could even bulldog your way to mid range, (walk forward and block fireballs at the last second. I would strongly reccomend against buttstomping from this range, way to easy for you to be punished. What you can do is do a straight jump up HP, as you have slight control over it, and buffer it into HP HHS when you land, you'll leap forward, and will either trade with the next fireball in your favor, or hit them clean. When you do get a chance to jump forward, you'll prob just manage to make em block a jumping HP or HK, which you should also buffer into HHS. As they reel backwards from being hit or being pushed back by blocking you can gain some ground, you want to push them to the corner. Cause once you get one knockdown in the corner it should be game over.

[jchensor]

Don't forget, though, that you only get the free-dizzy after the Oochio Throw if you use the Fierce button to do the throw. Because of the stored Honda Throw glitch, however, the majority of your Oochio Throws will be Jab, which doesn't allow you to dizzy as easily. Which is not really a big loss, considering how broken the stored throw glitch is.

Also, one of the most underrated Jumping Attacks for Honda is just plain ol' Jumping Forward, not Down+Forward. That thing has much better proirity than most of his other Jumping Attacks and will beat a lot more moves than his other Jumping Attacks.

- James

[fatboy]

Also, one of the most underrated Jumping Attacks for Honda is just plain ol' Jumping Forward, not Down+Forward. That thing has much better proirity than most of his other Jumping Attacks and will beat a lot more moves than his other Jumping Attacks.

- James

Agreed. The hit box on J.MK is half as long but twice the depth on the end of his foot than compared to the jumping RH

[Snowe]

forward + hk is a very very good move. Its reach is so long and I trade hits with people who do fireballs :)

[Footsy Bebop]

I've seen in a couple a videos, some Honda players do whiff low short into fierce hundred hand slap. Is there a trick to do this or is it just crazy ass button mashing? I've seen people do the same trick in CvS2, there I think they're using "piano tapping" to get the hundred hand slap to come out after a whiff, does that same technique work in Super Turbo?

[fatboy]

I've seen in a couple a videos, some Honda players do whiff low short into fierce hundred hand slap. Is there a trick to do this or is it just crazy ass button mashing?

If you’re a member of combovideos.com look for the pony canyon SF Turbo video (VHS). It showed many of the input techniques used buy the Japanese Players. You don't have to press the buttons that rapidly at all. It is very interesting. DL the video and watch it. The techniques are at the end. :cybot:

[UltraDavid]

For the low short into fierce hands, I don't know the reason, but it seems like it's easier to get fierce hands out if you tap another button immediately prior to going for fierce. So for low short into fierce hands, it would be down+short+fierce-fierce-fierce-fierce-fierce. You have to tap it quickly, but not ridiculously quickly. I do index finger on the short and ring finger on fierce, and I tap the ring finger a bunch; obviously the ring finger isn't the fastest one on your hand, but it still comes out most of the time. Pianoing doesn't work in ST per se, but since it seems that fierce hands comes out more easily if you press a button right before fierce, you can tap strong-fierce-strong-fierce etc and either strong or fierce slaps will come out.

As for jumping short butt, it beats certain attacks if it lands on them, like it can beat/trade with parts of Guile's low forward for example. It also cuts Honda's jump short as soon as you press it, so it's a decent way to move forward, especially if followed up by fierce hands.

If you're going for tick into command throw, mixing it up with a jumping short butt every once in a while isn't a bad idea. The best ticks into command grab are crossup roundhouse/forward splash into low jab, negative edge grab, but like with any ticking in this game, you need to mix it up. There are no real negative consequences to getting reversaled out of the grab because you'll just block and be able to go for headbutt/hands/grab/whatever, but still, you'd rather get command grab than not, so mix up your ticking by adding a crouching short or standing jab or whatever, you know, just to keep the opponent on his toes in terms of when he should try to reversal.

On how to get around fireballs, it's really character-specific, but in general your tricks are buttslam (not that good usually), jump straight up toward+fierce, walk up and block, jump toward forward/roundhousewalk up toward+roundhouse, and fierce hands dash (get fierce hands out for the smallest amount of time possible and it essentially becomes a dash). Not great options, but that's what you have.

[jchensor]

Actually, and I'm pretty sure about this, piano-ing doesn't help in ST at all. If you tap alternating Fierce and Strong, you'll get the Hand Slap out simply because you pressed ONE of those button enough times for it to register. And I think it's 6 presses of one button within a certain time frame (later games would reduce it to 5, and then they would introduce the piano-ing possibilities even later).

If you are playing on a joystick, oftentimes I use two fingers (index and middle) for tapping one button, alternating. But if you are on a pad, I'm not really sure of any good techniques outside of just mashing like there is no tomorrow.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[Don Calzone]

Anybody got some b'n'bs?
I saw some vids of the best Honda in Japan, Kunimondo or what he is called. And after a dizzy he would do j.fierce, st. jab, headbutt for sickening damage! I've tried to do it myself lots of times, but can't get it down. Has this something to do with arcade - console ports, or is it just me being to slow?

[UltraDavid]

I didn't mean to imply that pianoing worked; it doesn't. I only meant that pressing a different button immediately before (almost simultaneously with) the punch button you want to tap seems to help get the hands out. And you only need to press whatever punch button strength you want 5 times.

For combos, Honda doesn't really depend on comboing. Jumping fierce, close standing jab xx headbutt isn't really that hard. Honda's headbutt requires very little actual charge time, so you can just jump and start holding back and you'll be good. That said, it's easier to do jumping fierce, crouching short xx headbutt, just because it's easier to link and then cancel into and from crouching short. Other cool combos include crossup forward splash, standing jab, crouching short xx headbutt and after fierce grab, walk forward, crouching short xx headbutt. But again, comboing isn't real important for Honda.

[ThisGuileKillYa]

a friend of mine who taught me Honda is in the midst of writing the ST Honda bible. I've had a sneak peak and its pure gold.

Did he ever finish this?? Where is it?? :)

[jchensor]

I usually just go up and Oicho Throw people when they are dizzy (unless I dizzied him WITH the Oicho Throw... then you can't throw them when they get up). ^_^ You can probably do a better Combo (I use Jump Fierce, Crouch SHORT, into Headbutt), but the Oicho Throw does good damage and sets the enemy up for some fun mind games afterwards, especially in the corner.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[Don Calzone]

after fierce grab, walk forward, crouching short xx headbutt. But again, comboing isn't real important for Honda.

He has lots of options after a fierce grab, it sets up for just about everything Honda got. If you do fierce throw in the corner you can walk under your opponent and do c. rh and it will hit your opponent from behind. It's nice because it really doesn't look that the move will do that.

[UltraDavid]

I usually just go up and Oicho Throw people when they are dizzy
That's what I usually do too. I only combo into headbutt if I want to end up at a distance from the opponent, which is obviously matchup-dependent.

You can walk under after a fierce grab against most characters mid-screen too, although the crouching roundhouse trick doesn't work there.

[Don Calzone]

(unless I dizzied him WITH the Oicho Throw... then you can't throw them when they get up).l]

Oh, so you can't oicho them if they're being dizzied BY an ochio? Didn't know that, but it explains some thing i belive, haha.

One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?

[BKB]

^ if you dizzy with a throw, the dizzied opponent is immune to throws.

[Don Calzone]

^ if you dizzy with a throw, the dizzied opponent is immune to throws.

Only for Ochio or standard throws as well, even for other chars? What about other command grabs?

[felineki]

Only for Ochio or standard throws as well, even for other chars? What about other command grabs?ALL throws. Regular or command throws, all characters. Probably a programming oversight.

[arstal]

Trying to see what I should be doing in those matchups, versus what I do.

Vs Chun I try to guess the fireball and jump in with forward, if I knock her down go for oichios. I try to jump strong/fierce the neutral jump short.

Vs shotos I play more passively, I do look to jump the fireballs, or butt squash them, use more headbutts when they jump, which good ones rarely do (no reason to jump on Honda with Shotos.

These are the only matchups I really have trouble with- everything else I feel my Honda can handle. Just curious what you guys would suggest. Trying to get Honda to the level where I can fight bad matchups and win.

[Black Velvet Ryu.]

its hard, watch some vids

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Try zoning the shotos so that if they fireball you trade with forward hk sweep. It's fast and long, scores a knockdown. After that you can play your wakeup games.

[fatboy]

Check the Honda thread. There is some good stuff in there.

[arstal]

Did check that thread- some good stuff in there, but not everything I wanted.

Looking for stuff like which is better vs Chun's vertical jump fwd- strong or fierce? I know the positioning is the important thing.

The other projectile matchups I don't have trouble with.

[fatboy]

Did check that thread- some good stuff in there, but not everything I wanted.

Looking for stuff like which is better vs Chun's vertical jump fwd- strong or fierce? I know the positioning is the important thing.

The other projectile matchups I don't have trouble with.

Let me check the YBH for hit box stuff. I'll be able to give you an answer. I'll get back to you!

[zass]

Chun vs Honda is a really difficult fight for Honda. It's tough for him to deal with something as simple as jab FB followed by low roundhouse. He also has a really tough time with her jump back forward kick, and once she has her super charged, his options are even more limited.

Good luck :(

[NKI]

Getting around Chun's fireballs is really your biggest hurdle. If you can manage to accomplish that, the match isn't so hard.

Hundred Hand Slap is really good against Chun, 'cause she doesn't have anything solid to beat it consistently. So say you j.Forward over a fireball, hit or blocked, you're guaranteed some free chip damage with hands unless she has super.

She also has a tough time with the butt slam in the corner. If she doesn't predict it, the only thing she can really do is Short upkicks, but that's kinda hard to time.

Also, just his regular punches (st.Jab and st.Strong especially) are great pokes. If you're in close, but not close enough for an Ochio, you can do a st.Jab or st.Strong and keep mashing on punch to get free block damage. Charge down while you're doing this, so that if she throws a fireball, you can butt slam.

That's my random advice for now.

[CoMeBaCk386]

i have been playin honda for about a year now and against chun best thing i saw is just jumpin hard punch if she throws a fireball its prol the safest thing u can do

[Don Calzone]

One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?

As I asked earlier in this thread...

[RWD]

Did he ever finish this?? Where is it?? :)
Lol, that was me who was writing that ST Honda guide - it actually got about 95% finished, the only section I never completed was the character specific options after both types of grab because there is hella amount of stuff to cover.

I have no idea when it will get released as I don't have my own PC hooked up atm, I might allow r3ko to release the ghetto version of the guide (which has a lot done except match-up coverage iirc) if people are interested in seeing it but it probably sucks and has a few errors compared to the version I have done now.

And I think it's 6 presses of one button within a certain time frame (later games would reduce it to 5, and then they would introduce the piano-ing possibilities even later).
Just to clear it up, the minimum button presses for the HHS is 4 on ST.

One more question, does Honda have any tools against Chuns lightning legs?
Not really, you can use HP Headbutt which will sometimes trade hits with her, but the chances of that happening are really small and is pretty much a desperation technique. You can use jump HK and aim for her head which is a clean hit everytime, but I suspect whoever is using Chun against you isn't using lightning legs when you can actually do that.

Yeah, Chun sucks for Honda... :xeye:

[Warrior's Dreams]

Lol, that was me who was writing that ST Honda guide - it actually got about 95% finished, the only section I never completed was the character specific options after both types of grab because there is hella amount of stuff to cover.

I have no idea when it will get released as I don't have my own PC hooked up atm, I might allow r3ko to release the ghetto version of the guide (which has a lot done except match-up coverage iirc) if people are interested in seeing it but it probably sucks and has a few errors compared to the version I have done now.



Could you release it anyways? Maybe as a beta? Then add stuff later? I'm certain there are Honda players like myself who would be very grateful to you if you did.

[RWD]

Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

[Warrior's Dreams]

Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

Sounds good. I look forward to it!


(you're releasing it in this thread right?)

[ThisGuileKillYa]

Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

please do :)

[Corner-Trap]

Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

have you released it yet?

[r3ko]

I spoke with RWD recently. Hes working on it.

[ThisGuileKillYa]

Awesome! I havent been using much Honda lately, but no doubt reading this will revamp my interest hardcore. All it will take is one good trick to have me addicted.

[megakuma]

Do you guys know if Honda's headbutt can counter Claw's super wall dive grab?
A friend of mine was playing Honda vs Claw in the finals of a mini-tournament and
it came as a surprise when Claw just grabbed Honda out of his headbutt.

[UltraDavid]

The headbutt is partially throwable at its back and at the very start. Unless you're in the corner (not a bad idea against Claw), you should be escaping wall dives with butt drops, jumping strongs, and/or standing fierce.

[Warrior's Dreams]

Sure thing, it would be nice to finally release something from it since a lot of love went into that guide. What i'll do is get the copy I sent to r3ko and do a quick clean up making the thing at least respectable for a first public release, then we'll take it from there depending on the feedback.

I dont mind if the guide isnt clean. I'd really like to read it! Could you please release it?

[Warrior's Dreams]

New Honda media

http://starcup.news-site.net/mov/movmenu003.htm


nsc07chubu-c-1-4.zip - Tani (Guile x3) vs. Kusumondo (Honda x3)

nsc07chubu-sf-2.zip - Kusumondo (Honda x3) vs. Futachan (Ryu x3)


Put your mouse icon over the blue icon. It should be the 6th from the top and the last one

Kusumondo's Honda versus Guile and Ryu.


Hows that Honda guide coming along RWD?

[Nickoten]

I love using Honda but don't know much about him in reality other than that his lp headbutt is good anti air and to slap for chip. Can someone explain this stored Oicho glitch and how to properly use this move?

[Warrior's Dreams]

I love using Honda but don't know much about him in reality other than that his lp headbutt is good anti air and to slap for chip. Can someone explain this stored Oicho glitch and how to properly use this move?

Nice, good to see someone wants to learn Honda

First thing you have to consider is what version you are playing. I think its already active in the CCC2 version. If you're playing Anniversary Edition, what you do is hold down the start button, then while holding the start button down, select the SUPER TURBO version of Honda. You should hear a light tone if you did it correctly.

The stored Oicho Throw glitch is just like what it sounds. Go into practice mode, stand right next to a guy and perform the following: Do the motion for the Oicho throw (forward to down back + fierce) but dont press a punch button. Instead when you get to the "down-back" part of the motion, you hold the joystick in the "down-back" position. This "stores" the command for the throw (unless you stop holding down-back) Now, while holding the joystick in this position, press Fierce or Medium punch. If done correctly, Honda will perform the stored Oicho throw. So learn that first.

Once you get the hang of that, try applying what has already been said in this forum, such as:

F
If you're going for tick into command throw, mixing it up with a jumping short butt every once in a while isn't a bad idea. The best ticks into command grab are crossup roundhouse/forward splash into low jab, negative edge grab, but like with any ticking in this game, you need to mix it up. There are no real negative consequences to getting reversaled out of the grab because you'll just block and be able to go for headbutt/hands/grab/whatever, but still, you'd rather get command grab than not, so mix up your ticking by adding a crouching short or standing jab or whatever, you know, just to keep the opponent on his toes in terms of when he should try to reversal.


and

err, secrets of Honda your asking there. jumping d.mk(splash) is nearly always preferrable over j.lk. With j.lk you have to be a spot otherwise you'll get thrown for your trouble. As with the splash its easier to connect your stored oochio. If not you can just tap out a MP HHS for chip. j.lk can be quite usefull against guile's sonic boom cause its so thin.



One question I have now that I think about it, is when you do the spash (d+mk), when do you do the motion to store the throw? (as in, do you do the motion to store the throw while youre in the air crossing up with d+ mk, or when you turn around after the cross up, but before c.jab?) Similarly, if you store the throw while crossing up, when you land and turn around, is the store on the throw gone?


@ r3ko & RWD: Hows the guide coming along? Ive been dying to read this for forever it seems.... :wonder:

EDIT. Crap, You must pick the SUPER TURBO version of Honda, and not the super version

[Nickoten]

I play the arcade version. Would it work on there without picking the old version of him?

[dublo7]

The headbutt is partially throwable at its back and at the very start. Unless you're in the corner (not a bad idea against Claw), you should be escaping wall dives with butt drops, jumping strongs, and/or standing fierce.

unfortunately i play this match too often as honda. i don't think there is another match in st where the strategy for a char (honda in this case) is "do nothing" more than this one.
honda anywhere other than the corner while claw is off he wall is just bad for honda; all the options listed above are desperation moves.

if honda is in the corner and vega goes off the wall, same side, standing fierce will knock claw out of his wall dive clean.

if honda is in the corner and vega goes off the wall, opposite side, a headbutt should knock claw out of the dive clean.

i prefer to just headbutt claw out of dives when i'm midscreen and he's coming from the opposite wall; i'm unsure what happens if honda attempts to headbutt claw midscreen from the same side. that's prolly the wierd looking grab claw gets grabbing honda when he's horizontal.

hope this helps.......

[Warrior's Dreams]

I play the arcade version. Would it work on there without picking the old version of him?


Crap. My bad. You must pick the SUPER TURBO version of Honda, and not the super version.

[fluxcore]

I'm looking forward to RWD's guide as well - just picked up honda in the last few months and only really have the basics down, but am very eager to learn more about him :)

Cheers,
--flux

[X-Static]

Does anyone use O. Honda? If so, got any tips and tricks? He plays very differently than N. Honda, so I wanted to try him out a bit.

[FreshOJ]

I didn't mean to imply that pianoing worked; it doesn't. I only meant that pressing a different button immediately before (almost simultaneously with) the punch button you want to tap seems to help get the hands out. And you only need to press whatever punch button strength you want 5 times.

For combos, Honda doesn't really depend on comboing. Jumping fierce, close standing jab xx headbutt isn't really that hard. Honda's headbutt requires very little actual charge time, so you can just jump and start holding back and you'll be good. That said, it's easier to do jumping fierce, crouching short xx headbutt, just because it's easier to link and then cancel into and from crouching short. Other cool combos include crossup forward splash, standing jab, crouching short xx headbutt and after fierce grab, walk forward, crouching short xx headbutt. But again, comboing isn't real important for Honda.

This post is old and this may have already been typed, but...hey...read my signature...read my FAQ...it's obvious why I'm replying. :)

While comboing may not be as important with Honda, should you get the opportunity, here are two combos to try...

Crossup d+forward (or even fierce or roundhouse if they crossup, too, but those aren't easy to crossup with), close standing jab, close standing strong, standing fierce.
Crossup d+forward, Knee Butt (back or forward + forward kick while close), standing strong, jab 100 Hand Slap.

Note that both combos are all links. The first one is based on a combo I saw on the TZW Combo FAQ. You *must* land the splash deep because the key to the combo is getting the close strong to come out. The second...is one that I experimented with once I wrote my Link FAQ. I know it works on SSF2, but I haven't actually tested it out on Super Turbo.

You can also try...

Crossup d+forward, Knee Butt (back or forward + forward kick while close), crouch jab or close short XX Super.

Let me know what you get. :)

[Ehonda]

I have been using Honda since his first appearance in sf2. I can talk for hours about his matchups, but i do not have the time here to do so. By far we all know his tough matchups are Ken and Ryu. Chun is a tough matchup as well. but it is winnable. You need to get a big lead early on her and keep it. Just NEVER attack once you have it. DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND. Head butt any jumpins. Also his jumping jab works very well vs her air moves.

The most under utilized move for honda is his 100 hands. I have never seen anyone other than myself use this effectively. People depend on the oichio and use it once or twice and say "yeah did you see that i can do that move" then proceed to get raped the rest of the match. That move should be used in close range situations and not be planned. no need to store it when your opp is full screen away. The 100 hands is much more practical and useful. You can do so much block damage, that your opp will be like What the #$%$. I prefer the steam roller approach. Give them no room to breath and hope that they go into what i like to call Block syndrome. Where they sit in the corner afraid to do anything. Or the other approach is that they are clueless as to what to do and they proceed to jump up and down in the corner. Now you can punish them in the air with jump fierce or jump jab into butt smash. Also pray for the psychic Dp game, if they miss one you must punish it with a counter headbutt, hands or trip or throw if close. He does have good foot game but you must realize he has great range with stRH. It can reach very far and you can trade with FBs. This is very effective and necessary vs DJ and shotos.

The Sagat matchup is not as tough as you think, jump fierce is a great air move vs him, and Sagats FBs either miss you or they are easy to jump over. Do not butt smash vs him unless he is in the corner. Remember Hands!!
The Sim matchup is nice one. not easy but basically you just need to knock him down once and it is 50% damage to SIM. ill explain that in another thread.

[Ehonda]

More on Dhalsim vs Honda. I have played this matchup over 1000x. He has an answer to almost all of Sims moves. the Cj stops the slide and his hands pretty much owns everthing else. Dhalsims objective is to keep honda away. If you can keep honda guessing and keep him out you can win easily. i just need one knock down and this sets up the buttsmash insanity. When i do crossup butt smash (after a knock down) i can do many things. either a low short into head butt or another smash, a Lrh to trip him and crossup starts all over again. next i will do the oicho grab ( after buttsmash). crossup butt smash again. and hope he tries to conter grab then do another low move or smash. but @ this point sim has lost over 75% and is pretty much toasted. Once in the corner punish with hands again. The Slide beats hands cleanly so change up with low jabs to stop the slide then link the jab into more hands. also you must learn how to cancel your med hands into another med hands. tough to do but once you get the timing down it can lead to big chip damage. Another way on knocking Sim down or stunning him is through Jumping fierce or jumping med splash. Constantly change up your jump ins. once you get your meter built up sacrifice it to get in close by going through one of his FBs with it. also learn the timing of his Yogo Flame to sneak a full screen F.HB in as it dissipates. Once Sim has his meter built up things change and you need to bait him into blowing it off at the wrong time. Sometimes you can get over it with a butt smash but this rarely works. I still try and remain aggressive, don't let sim get his feet settled or he can keep you away again. His drills/mummys can be tricky the trick here is to not use your instincts to headbutt them but buttsmash them instead. or block them and attempt an oicho, its tough b/c of block stun against this move. This pretty much sums up that matchup.

EDIT* any info on this matchup the other way would be much appreciated.
Edit #2 when i say cancel med hands into another med hands i mean do only the minimal 100hand button pushes and start doing another set of button pushes for another hands to come out just as the initial hands stops its animation. There will be only a split second in between the 1st and 2nd volley of hands.

[nohoho]

^ Pasted on to the wiki!!
http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/E._Honda_%28ST%29

Also I listed the advantage-disadvantage matchups on the bottom. Let me know if those are ok?

EDIT: Oh wait you're nothingness? Uh huh wow I'm a jackass. Sorry.

But, seriously, don't you think that Honda-T.Hawk is more lopsided than Honda-Blanka? I mean, it's all relative, eh?

[UltraDavid]

For the matchups (pretty much in order):

Serious advantage: Gief, Cammy, Fei
Advantage: Hawk, Blanka, Dictator
Fair: Claw, Boxer, Sagat, Sim
Disadvantage: Chun Li, Ken
Serious disadvantage: Guile, Ryu, DeeJay

About the combos, Honda always wants to end his combos with hands, knockdown, or tick into ochio, and the hands is really only good if you have the opponent cornered. I'll try that hands thing out though, didn't know that close standing forward linked into standing strong.

Edit: Honda v Hawk is more lopsided than Honda v Blanka, but not by a whole lot. Hawk is a little less mobile, but can play defense alright and, if forced, can jump toward Honda with jab and fierce and at least trade with the headbutt and sometimes beat it. Hawk loses the match, obviously, but it's not a baste like Honda v Gief, Cammy, or Fei is.

Edit 2: Sim could really be under "disadvantage" matchups, but I'd keep him in "fair" instead.

Edit 3: More waffling.

[epsilon_]

hm, check out honda's fair matchups.

the 4 best characters in the game, lol.

[Ehonda]

THawk cannot jump in on Honda with nothing. his jHB has enough invincible frames to hit all of his jumpins. If someone is successfully jumping in on you with Hawk than your timing is off. Yes T.Hawk is more of a disadvantage than Blanka in a few ways but if i was to give one reason why T.Hawk is a tougher match it would be b/c of his Uppercut move. He can just walk forward and if you have fast enough reactions just psychic DP any of Honda hands or headbutts. Thawks 360 can be devastating to Honda but you must not allow him to knock you down at all. or risk him doing an early jump in and forcing Honda to either counter early with a mistimed HB which is then countered by a DP. or he can then link in with his 360 after he blocks Hondas mistimed HB. Unlike against Blanka (who should run when ahead)Thawk must keep on the pressure b/c Honda has a good enough attack game to go after Thawk when behind in Life. But Honda cannot (usually)attack a turtling Blanka that just jumps up and down in the corner.
I can agree with the Ken, Ryu and DJ match-ups but not so much with Guile. I'll go into the Guile vs Honda match later.

[Ehonda]

Here is how i rate Hondas matchups:

Serious advantage: Thawk, Fei, Cammy, Blanka, Zangief
Advantage: Bison, Vega, Dhalsim
Even: Balrog, ( i would give a VERY slight advantage to ROG)
Disadvantage: Guile, Chunli, Sagat.
Serious Disadvantage: Ryu, Ken, DJ

Nohoho why that reaction to me being Nothingness?

[UltraDavid]

I don't mean that Hawk can jump at you from any range, I mean that he can jump at you from so that he lands a character space or so away; if you go for headbutt, it'll either trade or lose, depending on the strength of buttons you pick and he picks. He can also jump at you if he's already close enough so that he can cross you up, but sure, there's definitely an area in between those two where he can't jump, and good Hawks will know that. If Hawk gets into that first range, though, he can make you guess between dragon punch and walk-up 360. Of course, you can stop this with preemptive hands or by antiairing with neutral jumping fierce, but if Hawk thinks you're gonna do either of those, he'll just dive or not jump in the first place. Hawk can also play reasonably competent defense by sitting back with crouching jab, which beats headbutt and hands, but obviously this'll only last so long. The point is that while you have the advantage at almost all times, the advantage isn't huge like it is with Honda v Gief, Hawk does have games he can play that'll make you lose.

[Ehonda]

Yes i have seen these tricks and i know exactly what you are talking about. If i see a Thawk jumping from far away, i simply use buttsmash or a straight up jump RH or fierce. or catch him early with a F.HB. Far jumping is a common CPU move. SRH works well against this too, as well as having them land on the hands. I also like to take hits on purpose in that situation to get into range for throws, point blank supers or point blank hands into HB. Thawk jumps in and hits my hands i do HB or smash, which hits him then i go on offense. Thawk can only get close enough to Honda for a Crossup if he knocks him down which is tough enough.

If he starts to do jabs to prevent HB or hands i do Standing RH (remember to block back while you do this) to trip him up. Ill also let him jab my hands to trick him into thinking i do not know how to counter this move. But all i'm doing is building up my meter.
The 1st move to do against THawk is to jump back and do hands then repeat.

[UltraDavid]

Buttsmash isn't a great idea at that range, since Hawk's jumping fierce will beat it, go through it, or trade, and if Hawk then blocks it, depending on circumstances he can 360 or dragon punch. But yeah, the hands are good, sac throwing is fine if you have good ochio timing, early fierce headbutt is good. Far standing roundhouse beats Hawk's low jabs, but if Hawk sees you walking up or jumping up to get there, he can jump and do the dive, dragon punch, walk toward and/or jump into shenanigans, etc, because he knows you don't have charge. You can beat those options too, but again, the point is that these are all games that, although they usually go in your favor, can go in Hawk's favor a significant percentage of the time, and that's most of the reason why this matchup isn't 8-2 for Honda like the Gief, Cammy, and Fei matchups are.

[Ehonda]

hmmm here are how i would see two players equally skilled with there characters.
Tier I
Ryu vs Honda 8-2
KEn 8-2
DJ 7-3
Tier II
Chun 6.5-3.5
Sagat 6.5-3.5
Guile 6-4
TierIII
Balrog 5.5-4.5
Tier IV
Dhalsim 4-6
Vega 4-6
Bison 3.5-6.5
Tier V
Feilong 3-7
Thawk 3-7
Blanka 3-7
Zangief 2.5-7.5
Cammy 2-8

The reason i give Fei 3-7 s b/c of the direction of his DP move he can block and do it safely. So while getting chipped he can try it if it fails he still can block.

[UltraDavid]

Cool, I agree with lots of those, but here's my take (with the second number as Honda's score):


Ryu: 8-2
DeeJay: 8-2
O Ken: 7.5-2.5

Guile: 6.5-3.5
N Ken: 6-4
Chun: 6-4

O Sagat: 5.5-4.5
Boxer: 5-5
Sim: 5-5
Claw: 4.5-5.5

Blanka: 4-6
Dictator: 3.5-6.5
O Hawk: 3.5-6.5

Fei: 3-7
Cammy: 2-8
Gief: 2-8

Edit: waffling between 3.5-6.5 or 4-6 for Blanka and 6-4 or 6.5-3.5 for N Ken.

[Warrior's Dreams]

I have been using Honda since his first appearance in sf2. I can talk for hours about his matchups, but i do not have the time here to do so. By far we all know his tough matchups are Ken and Ryu. Chun is a tough matchup as well. but it is winnable. You need to get a big lead early on her and keep it. Just NEVER attack once you have it. DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND. Head butt any jumpins. Also his jumping jab works very well vs her air moves.



Yes! Finally! This is what the Honda thread NEEDS! Ehonda, please, for the sake of all things Honda, just keep talking! It is so hard to find someone who can talk about Honda. I want to learn !!!!!!

:woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot::woot:

[Ehonda]

Now I will post Honda vs Guile strats. Pardon if it is somewhat inaccurate I have not played this match-up in many years.

Hondas key here is to bait Guile into throwing Booms. Even if Honda does anticipate Guile can still jump up to counter a buttsmash over the Boom, since Guiles lag time after the boom is very short. The Key in this situation is to be as close to Guile as possible and do Medium B.Smash through the boom hitting him on the way up. If you are to far away to hit him on the way up you will hit him on the way down (unless Guile jumps away or air grabs him [tough to do ] Guile can recover and counter this move when you land.
Pinning Guile in the corner is essential to beating him. Using ticks and foot games with C.short, C.forward, StRH and low strong and jab. These prevent booms and various moves in Guiles arsenal. You cannot fight Guile mid screen (much like against Vega). Chipping away at Guile with 100 hands is a nice way to get blk damage and to close to set up the oichio. I like early Jumps vs Guile as well after you knock him down do a Crossup Msplash early hope that Guile does a wake up and then Hit him with Hands 2x the 1st will hit, the other will make them block. Or after the initial hit do Bsmash. and attempt to grab or do low Short into HB. Try not to knock him down again until you have done sufficient damage to him.

Here are a list of NEVERS:

1. Never do Forward or Rhouse smashes over booms from full screen. only use short until close.
2. Never Turtle. ( unless you have an 80% lead or so and time is running out of course)
3. Never do full screen Headbutts.
4. Never allow him to jump in.
5. Never allow him to tick throw you. * you do have oichio remember that!!!!!!!!!

[RWD]

I noticed there was a few posts about the guide I wrote so I figured i'd just clear things up. The last version of the guide I spoke of was totally lost due to the PC it was wrote on having a complete HD failure, so all was left was a very rough version of the guide I had saved on my e-mail.

I'm due to become a father in a few weeks so I don't have time to re-write what was lost and finish the thing (also whenever I play ST these days, I use Boxer), but I figured i'd post the most interesting parts from the "ghetto guide" and hopefully it will get people started on racking up the wins with Honda.

-------------------------------

Anti-Projectile Strategy

One of the major hurdles a beginner Honda player will run into is dealing with projectile spam - at the start you'll probably think its a lost cause dealing with the random hits/block damage caused due to his size, but after a while you'll learn how to deal with it.

First thing to know is NEVER EVER use HK Sumo Splash, that thing is serious counter bait, don't use it.

LK Sumo Splash over projectiles from max distance away does very well if you are willing to "creep" towards your opponent - remember that patience will serve you well in the long run as all it takes is to win is 1 mistake or trapping the opponent in the corner and keeping them there.

MK Sumo Splash is very risky, especially against shotos, but if it is used once in a while it may help gain some ground if you have the health to take the risk with.

Straight Up j.HP - this is controllable, so you can move forward slightly while in the air, learning to do this is pretty essential because overuse of any type of Sumo Splash will lead to being countered all the time.

The Super - *text removed due to reference to points later in the guide* don't forget about it and remember to have a back up plan if it doesn't work correctly.

j.LK - this comes in handy since makes Honda a smaller target and seems to have pretty high priority, i've seen this do pretty really well against Guile in particular.

MP HHS - this isn't “avoiding” the projectile par say, but if you are willing to be a man (and have the health to back it up), you can at least trade hits from a fair distance away, this can be a psychological advantage knowing you always have a way to at least trade off in the damage department.

I’ll also use the MP (and sometimes HP) HHS after a straight up j.HP, this can be decent pressure against characters with longer projectile recovery time, New Ken and New Sagat being prime targets.

Another method of countering projectile spam is by simply trying to “bulldog” your way to the opponent - walk forward, block, repeat (and perhaps do the occastional poke now and then)... you'll slowly but surely back your opponent up into a corner. This is, of course, a very dangerous way of getting in, as proven in one of the A-cho tournaments, it can actually get you completely owned so only use this if you have strong reactions.

As stated earlier, patience is the key against someone who knows how to use their projectiles, take your time with the confidence that you'll eventually get in (even if it takes the whole round and nearly all your health to do it) and you should go far.

Hundred Hand Slap - which one to use?

HHS is mainly a chipper - if you go into a match thinking of using it as a primary way of dealing direct damage, your thinking the wrong strategy with Honda.

General, point blank on wider characters, chip damage is as follows:
Weak: 3 max
Medium: 5 max
Fierce: 7 max

(those numbers could be wrong - I just wrote them off the top of my head but it seems about right)

The general usage of each version is as follows:

Weak: This HHS actually has pretty good priority all round, will snuff out a decent number of moves and can be good to use randomly at the start of the round if someone gets fresh with you and attempts to jump-in (which would be suicide really, but whatever...). This can also be used as a method of fast meter building since Honda's super is an important psychological key to winning the vs. projectile character match ups. This is also very good at point blank range on a knockdowned opponent in the corner.

Medium: This is the one I use the most, it moves Honda forward pretty fast at a reasonable distance, is very easy to learn to get the minimum 4 button press activation and does an excellent job at putting pressure on the opponent. Superb meter builder also so learn how to do this at will and watch your Honda game sky rocket. Another thing to learn is blocked c.MK into MP slaps and blocked b/f + HK into MP (or HP) slaps - this is purely pressure/chip related but a lot of people won't have a clue how to deal with the constant barrage of low hitting normals and forward moving slaps, and since you can charge for Sumo Headbutts during the slaps, they can't really jump forward at you either.

Fierce: Personally, I don't use this very often - it moves Honda VERY quickly and quite far across the screen, but it always seems to put me in danger more than anything, generally i'll use this when I want that extra couple of hits in block damage or really need to cover some ground after a knockdown, but other than that, I stick to MP slaps.

The Secrets of Mashing

Ahh, the hidden art of mashing for those Hundred Hand Slaps - what most people don't know is there is a rule for mashing where you can actually get the move to come out in a minimum of 4 button presses.

Another rumour, which i'll kill now is; no - you can't piano tap for HHS - piano tapping only works with Deejay's Machine Gun Upper.

Anyway, use this ghetto chart to see how get the minimum 4 button press HHS:

Weak: LP..... LP..... LP..... LP
Medium: MP... MP... MP... MP
Fierce: HP.HP.HP.HP

What it quite interesting is the drastic change in tempo between the MP and HP versions of HHS - you can actually do the MP version pretty darn slow and it'll still come out while the HP version needs to be done very fast and there doesn't seem to be any exception except "mash fast". If anyone can give a different view on the HP version, post it.

Stored Oochio

The nightmare move of ST... this makes Honda an iron fortress and is arguable the most broken thing in the game - learning to use and abuse this is completely essential for high level play.

Oochio is performed with a HCB + P movement right? Well, a glitch in ST makes it so Honda can store the move and use it at will - this is done by doing the HCB movement then holding onto either Back, Up-Back or Down-Back and not letting go.

Why is this technique so good? Oochio is a zero frame command throw (with no whiff animation, unlike Gief's SPD) with decent range, which means under reversal circumstances it will beat every ground based attack in the game... period. This also means when Honda is knockdowned, he can store Oochio and basically be impossible to meaty attack.

Other plus points is the fact when your holding onto Back/Down-Back so you are essentially charging up for Sumo Headbutt and Sumo Splash while having a perfect reversal waiting. In other words, everything you want for the "tank-like" defensive is covered, if you wanted, you could also use MP and HP slaps as a way of moving forward while keeping all 3 attacks ready.

One last point; when the opponent isn't in range for an Oochio, you can use any normal attack you wish and not lose the store.

Oochio Options

Whenever you land an Oochio (stored or not) you have a whole host of options to play with, here we go:

c.MK - this doesn't work on all characters and i'll update this with a list at a later date, but because Oochio does a HUGE amount of stun damage, generally, the next hit will probably dizzy the opponent.

MP HHS - this is a no brainer, the lunging slaps get chip damage for free... unless your opponent is a reversal demon they'll most likely do the safe option and block.

c.MK > MP HHS - an extention of the above, if the c.MK doesn't get them... the chip damage from the HHS will...

HK Sumo Splash - this will cross the opponent over and probably dizzy them if it connects.

MK Sumo Splash - just to mix up paranoia about the crossover HK Sumo Splash with a non-crossover Sumo Splash.

j-d.MK (the splash) > Oochio - this is risky but is worth it if you connect with another Oochio afterwards.

(in the corner) c.LK xx Sumo Splash - the c.LK is cancellable so it should flow like a thing of beauty for a high/low block string, can also lead to another Oochio.

(in the corner) LP HHS - like the MP HHS, chip damage for all, just watch out for those reversal throws.

(in the corner) Oochio Loop - see the next section...

B/F+HK - the sweep of doom, use if you forget the above follow ups... >_>

c.LP > Oochio - this can be done when you land an Oochio close to the corner but you still switch sides with the opponent, this is done the same way as the Oochio Loop (talked about in the next section) only you can’t carry with the loop after the second Oochio hits.

Oochio Corner Loop

This is Honda’s fast route to 100% victory, here is how to do it:

Step 1) Get opponent into the corner and knock them down.

Step 2) Do a point blank meaty c.LP (stand LP and c.LK are also options, but c.LP is by far the better attack).

Step 3) Oochio them when they recover from block/hit stun - this can be done by 3 methods;

By quick storing then piano tapping the Oochio - this gives 6 chances for the Oochio to connect with the opponent but also runs the risk of being reversaled by a special move easier if a normal comes out during a mistime.

By quick storing, holding down the 3 punches when the c.LP is still out, and releasing them one after the other piano style - this method cuts the number of chances for the Oochio to come out by 3, but also removes the risk of being reversaled by a special move since Honda will always block it instead.

Or by doing it “normally” with a brief pause between the c.LP and Oochio (like you would when doing something like Gief's LK > SPD) - I seriously recommend not using this method at all.

Step 4) Repeat Steps 2 and 3 - the Oochio in the corner puts the opponent into perfect position for another meaty c.LP, so this is a pretty easy loop to learn.

While this trick is pretty nasty, it can (like anything else) be escaped by reversals - I generally don't recommend using this against characters with access to a hold rather than a throw since at least if you get reversal thrown while attempting this, odds are you can tech out of it for minimal damage... unlike most holds while lead to a whole load of pain even if you escape quickly.

To make things easier, here is a list of characters that you should not attempt the Oochio Loop on unless you are feeling brave and have the health to spare:

Dhalsim, Boxer, Blanka, T-Hawk and (New) Ken

T-Hawk, Gief and Honda (obviously) can also use their own command grabs to get out the loop

When doing the loop, I recommend mixing it up with LP slaps, Sumo Splashes and LP Sumo Headbutt’s to keep the opponent from thinking twice when trying to reversal throw you - of course, this is still open to something like a reversal DP, but mixing up your options even when it might not be needed will keep your Honda from being predictable.

-------------------------------

That's all i'm posting up for now, if you guys enjoyed these bits of the guide I might clean up other sections and post them up in time - feedback and criticism is welcome, thanks for taking the time to read all that.

[Ehonda]

This was very well done, basic but well done. I only disagreed with one thing in this guide and that was the RH Buttsmash. This is one of the biggest tricks Honda has in his arsenal. There are a few things you can use it for, by changing your timing of when you go over FBs this will change where you are after the FB passes under you. Since you go so high in the Air it gives you more opportunities to get over them. IF my opp is full screen its a nice trick to get your opp to try and reversal this move. I will do and early RH Smash over a FB just landing after the FB lands under me. IF i do it late the odds of it being countered are much higher but it will prevent a Crh from a Ken and Ryu if they are used to seeing you do it early. Changing up tactics while using RH Smash are a must. Also if they try and counter this move in the air and they do a jumping forward move to counter you, they just put themselves(when they land) in range of an ochio or a M buttsmash. Remember the Short buttsmash cannot go through FBs when they are point blank. At the start of a round if your opp starts the round with a FB you can counter with Med BS to go through the FB and get a knock down on the way up. ...that is the range im talking about when they try and counter your RH Buttsmash. So they essentially took FB out of there armory until they retreat a bit farther back.

One of the things i loved was one of the first comments about taking block damage. (Yes get used to it. ) taking hits is also necessary if you are to get inside. especially the full screen Super through FB even though a great reversal player can counter it, this will get you into range again. Another thing i was suprised about was that you did not mention the whiff super into oichio.
some times you will notice that when Honda does his Super it will only connect 2 times on a random basis, this is not bad if you always prepare for it. If after you do the super motion and hit your last forward motion roll it backwards to the DB position and repress the button and hold it while you are still in the super itself. when/ IF you whiff with only 2 hits of the super release or redo the motion/button of the oichio and get devestating damage from the two hits of the super and linking into the oichio throw.

[Kuprin]

That's...really interesting, and makes a lot of sense. Perhaps there's some tweaking of our strategies in the Ryu and Ken matchups as well, to keep from getting quite so spanked?

[Ehonda]

Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.

[subt-L]

Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.

well, damn... sorry i posted.

but walking underneath is way too risky. you usually can be reversal thrown before you truly get underneath, and your chances of attacking the wrong way after walking underneath is very high.

[Ehonda]

it was a legit post... sometimes using stuff that is not usually used can be effective. but just don't over use it . finding a way of mixing up two different patterns in the same situation can be a great advantage.

[fatboy]

well, damn... sorry i posted.


What? C'mon, don't take it too personally. People can express diffent opinions, that is part of posting on a forum! :wgrin:

Keep posting.

I don't think honda ment his reply as an attact.

There are tons of people who play tons of different chracters. When it comes to mid/lower tier characters such as Honda (sorry Honda fans :lovin:), there are tons of differnt ways to approaching things b/c there is no *single* dominate tactic they can exibit to get out of problematic situations... hence being low tier.

People want to hear what other have to say as long as their not speaking out thier @$$.

:angel:

[Ehonda]

yes exactly! So much has been uncovered in ST over the past many years. Its tough to come up with something never seen before. i haven't seen that thing in a long time. in fact i re-learn stuff every tourney i enter. half the time i forget things i have seen 6-7 years prior. Its nice to see people actually taking the time to experiment with things.

[jms]

A while back, Apoc posted jokingly that (and I paraphrase) among the old school players, ST tournaments were no longer about who was the best, but who had forgotten the least. Forgetting matchups and general memory loss is evidently a serious hurdle for the 30 and older crowd :rofl:

ST discussions are cyclical. Skilled and devoted players come along, drop a few knowledge bombs, and after a time fade from the scene due to real life obligations or lack of interest. Newer players pay attention, take up the reins, and make important contributions. But there's no central repository of ST knowledge. Before experimenting with something "new," a player can't consult the big book of ST and realize that "Honda bear hug in the corner followed by a properly timed c.RH crosses up" has already been discovered. So, for better or worse, new player or old, we reinvent lots of really cool wheels with spinners.

[FreshOJ]

Yes ive seen this before, but very rarely. Bob Painter used a similar strategy with Honda. This works great until your opponent adjusts like all top level players will do. This will work great on high level players but not for very long, and low level players why bother. Another strategy is to bear hug then walk under neath as they land and play some games that way as well. much like the Balrog thingee.

Wow...Bob Painter. I wish I had played his Honda more. I'm guessing he "retired" from the SF scene much like Milo did. I knew those cats personally, BTW. You got me reminiscin' about the old days.

Anyway, I would think that if you're bear hugging with Honda, you probably got it by accident and any shenanigans you pull after that should be geared toward landing the Ouchio Throw. Am I crazy?

[Ehonda]

Wow...Bob Painter. I wish I had played his Honda more. I'm guessing he "retired" from the SF scene much like Milo did. I knew those cats personally, BTW. You got me reminiscin' about the old days.

Anyway, I would think that if you're bear hugging with Honda, you probably got it by accident and any shenanigans you pull after that should be geared toward landing the Ouchio Throw. Am I crazy?

Hmm got me thinking of some mess with that bear hug stuff... bear hug walk forward do Standing low RH which will cross-up then go and try for oichio. blah... i rarely use the bear hug unless i'm trying to counter throw a certain characters throw. I have found out that i can counter throw certain characters throws with certain throws. so if Ken tries to do low short into a leg throw i should use leg throw to counter that, not his bear hug or MP throw. I do not think it has anything to do with the game mechanics but it seemed to work a lot for me in the past. perhaps it was just psychological.

[Don Calzone]

Two questions:

1. Is Hondas jab headbutt ALWAYS safe to use as an anti-air? Is there stuff that beats it?

2. Does O.Honda have a different throw range than N.Honda? I remember watching a vid where an O.Honda tor up a couple of guys using alot of kneebashing (RH right?) throws, one of the guys played Boxer and almost never threw the Honda back.

[RWD]

Sumo Splash Stuff...
While your statement makes sense, in my personal experience against one of Europe's top Ryu and Chun players, as well as some pretty good Deejay and Guile players, RH Sumo Splash is an absolutely awful move in general and often lead to me eating damage for free.

The only time I'll personally use RH Sumo Splash is for some crossover trickery, i'll never use it for anti-projectile purposes.

Like I said, that's just my personal view on the move - if other people want to keep it in their arsenal, it's all good.

Two questions:

1. Is Hondas jab headbutt ALWAYS safe to use as an anti-air? Is there stuff that beats it?

2. Does O.Honda have a different throw range than N.Honda? I remember watching a vid where an O.Honda tor up a couple of guys using alot of kneebashing (RH right?) throws, one of the guys played Boxer and almost never threw the Honda back.

1) Jab Headbutt is invincible on start-up so theory wise, it beats everything - the trick is learning the timing to use the start-up (which is an attack all on it's own) to anti-air, not the actual torpedo itself.

2) I'm fairly sure that Old and New Honda's normal throws share the same grab range. Without seeing the video myself, i'm taking a guess that the reason why the Boxer couldn't throw back is because, iirc, Honda's normal throw range is larger than Boxer's.

[Ehonda]

Hondas Jab Head butt is like RWD said "invincible on start up". But you must watch for early jumps and far jumps which will effectively make your JHB worthless and very vulnerable. As far as i know the throw ranges are the same. You also can be throw out of the JHB by things such as Gief and Thawks 360's. Early jump by Zangief then 360 = death for Honda.

[Ehonda]

Dj cannot defend against the RH smash his recovery is too slow, Guile however can, Chunli cannot recover in time either. Ryu and Ken yes they are fast enough. Remember i don't mean that they cannot recover as in they will be hit by the RH splash, they all can block it, just some block at different stages of the move. DJ and Chun can block but countering it is tough. Guile can just jump away. Ryu and Ken can DP it. Also it all has to do with anticipation of the move as well.

[RWD]

Deejay can just do runaway Max Out > j.RH (which stops pretty much everything) all day and it gives Honda hell - RH Sumo Splash is probably the worst thing you could attempt in that match-up... as for Chun, what self-respectable Chun player is going to throw a fireball anywhere but full screen (or during a block string) anyway?

If both characters are still throwing them at mid-screen or whatever, they deserve to lose.

Like I said, if people want to keep using RH Sumo Splash as a viable way of getting past projectiles, that's cool - i've already covered what I think are the better ways of dealing with projectiles in a previous post.

[Ehonda]

actually in the DJ scenario i would allow the Jump RH to hit me then just when he think ill do it again block the Maxout then hit him when he lands with F HButt or block then jab headbutt into a med splash. No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from from more than mid screen anyways so that is pointless to even mention. This is all up close and personal RH smahses. The timing of the RH smash means EVERYTHING. I do agree med is 100x better than RH, RH smash has its purpose though.

[RWD]

Deejay can throw a Max Out then see what your going to do and counter if needed, no legit Deejay is going to throw a projectile in a bad position then blindly j. RH in vain hope your trying to get over it with a Splash.

As for the "No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from more than mid screen anyways" statement - I 100% agree, but it's shocking the amount of Honda players who do it out of pure desperation. I'm trying to help put learning Honda's on the right path but making it clear RH Splash is an awful anti-projectile strategy at high levels and is only good for some crossover trickery and a couple of mid-screen strats.

[Ehonda]

DJ cannot counter if Honda anticipates the max out. if its done on reaction then yes DJ can counter. Almost Everything becomes guess when you are playing top tier players.

[Ehonda]

This match up i give a slight 6-4 or 5.5-4.5 advantage to Honda. The main problems Honda has vs Claw are Claws jumping speed and is mid screen cross up game. First thing to know when fighting claw....Get in the corner as fast as you can. If you get caught in the middle of the screen, you more than likely will take chip damage from the crossup walldives, enough to put Claw on the run and you want to have a lead vs claw not be chasing him all over the board. you must make Claw come to you. (If he gets the lead it will be extremely difficult to get it back.) Sit in that corner and splash or headbutt every jump in he attempts. another trick is to block then ochio the jumpin. you may notice that you cannot headbutt claws jumps most of the time. This is due to the speed of his jumps.
The Air game:. Honda actually fairs quite well in this. Jump back jab stops just about all of the wall dives. Anything off of the wall jumpback jab. if he goes off of his wall sit and head butt it. If he tries to go off of your wall you must use jump back jab to prevent Claw from going of off your wall and causing you to lose your charge. if you are caught not charging or with cement feet use standing fierce.
The ground game: Honda does well but beware of the rolls, sometimes they can hit all of Hondas ground moves. Hands is a nice way to get him out of his ground game. Another danger is the full screen headbutt. Most expert Claw players invite you to do full screen HB then they can do a single back flip then throw you then RUN! Scrolling the screen also meses up Claw so doing repeated Hands (even if they miss) can screw his wall game up.

[Ehonda]

This is one of Hondas best matchups. The air game should not come into play at all in this matchup b/c Honda does not need to Jump or be in the air at all. Honda must beware of a few things against Hawk. The first being his short dive into DP. nice trick easily stopped by either Hbutt after the Dp or hands. Hbutt the dive itself(if in range). if not in range. use hands or safe low jab. Hawk is unable to use Far dives that will hit deep or high. Headbutt stops this. Headbutt stops just about everything that Hawk has to offer. WARNING DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN! Get to the air if Hawk is able to get in after he knocks you down. Jumping back with out hitting any buttons is preferred it tightens your hitboxes and you become tougher to hit. if not Hit fierce or RH very Early. Get in the corner and sit there, headbutt every jumpin and hands often to build meter. If things get up-close and personal Ochio. I cannot emphasize this more 1. DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN!
2. Head butt ALL jump ins.
3 Do Hands often to keep him out of typhoon range.

[mad possum]

OK enough with the easy straight forward matches, LOL. I want to hear some other Honda players opinions on the DJ and Chun match-ups. Those are the ones I find the most challenging.

[Ehonda]

The reasoning behind posting the winnable matches for Honda first is b/c if you cant win those matches then there is no point in trying to win at the difficult ones. I will be posting chun and/or DJ within the next two weeks.

[Chaghatai]

Hello - I'm new to SRK, but not to SFII. Thing is, I'm used to HF from the arcade and super from the snes. I finally decided to move to super turbo via AE due to the release of HD. (lotta acronyms huh?) I of course noticed right away that the normal moves have some differences. (as I did "back in the day" but I seldom played ST back then so it didn't matter in those days).

First the crouching fierce. I noticed that it's a double palm most of the time now. Seems to lose range and gain a second hit. Also noticed that "classic" cr. HP sometimes comes out. Question: what governs when the "old" move comes out? Also is the new move an improvement or a nerf? (so far I don't like it)

Also noticed that his standing roundhouse kicks up more often now, I think it did that when close in turbo and super, but it seems you need to be alot farther away to make the sweep come out now, is this correct or am I wrong on this one? Again, if changed is it good or bad?

Other major one is that his splash needs a down command to come out whereas m kick would always come out as a splash as long as you werent jumping straight up. this change is clearly good as it gives more options - nothing is taken away.

Finally the cr. med and short kicks have a completely different move - he doesn't crouch low and sideways and flip his foot out sideways like he used to. Is the old move gone? And lastly, is this once again a positive change or a negative?

Any help getting me adjusted is appreciated - I know he has a command throw now and am working on incorperating it also - hopefully I can offer up some decent competition before too long...

[Ehonda]

Yes i was a little disappointed with the changes to Honda's regular moves. The old Cr fierce now has to be done while standing. If its done the other way you get the double pump.
Another significant change was his standing fierce which now has random outcomes. Your opponent must be close for this to come out. otherwise its just a straight jab.
his old cr forward and short must be done while standing now basically the switched the standing with cr moves. It gives him more options and a better ground game. His RH hasn't really changed that much you generally either hold forward or back to get the standing sweep.

[mad possum]

Cr. Fierce is the (mostly useless) double hit punch. Standing fierce gives you the move that LOOKS like the cr.Fierce from HF but it DOESN'T KNOCK DOWN. It is a definite change for the worse. You only get his Fierce chop move when the opponent is close (less reliable to use as anti-air now because sometimes you get the old cr.punch instead of the chop).


Stading Fierce gives you the upward kick, if you want the sweep you need to push towards or back + Roundhouse. He also doesn't have his Short and Forward knockdown sweeps from Super and HF. His close short move can be cancelled into the fierce headbutt to give Honda a real non-chain combo finally. His close Short also makes a nice tick into the Ochio throw (cr.Jab is better but Short is nice to mix it up every now and then).


Learn to use the Ochio! It is his best upgrade in ST.

[Ehonda]

Also i too missed his old cr fierce that knocked down it was one of the features that i disliked. He needed his chop as well, which they made random.

[UltraDavid]

N Honda and O Honda both have advantages in terms of their normals.

O Honda's crouching fierce is really good because it's his quickest sweep and his standing fierce chop is really good as an antiair and to counterpoke some normals. His crouching short and forward have awesome hitboxes and can totally stuff things like headbutt and Blanka ball. His standing jab also has one of the best hitboxes in the game because almost his whole hand can't be attacked even though it hits the opponent, so you can play great up-close games on opponents' wakeups; you can stand at max range and do standing jab as Ryu wakes up, and if he blocks, you get a tick, and if he does dp, it goes right through your hand and you can do free damage. Also, his far standing kicks all sweep and have different speeds and ranges, making for some nice mixups and whiffs-into-walkups.

N Honda's crossup game is way better, since his crossup roundhouse is one of the best in the game. I also feel like his jumping non-splash forward is a little beefier. His standing and crouching kicks are more intuitively arranged, which is nice, and the hitboxes are pretty much the same where he shares animations with O Honda. His far standing jab is pretty similar to O Honda's, but it's not quite as safe. His normals are also more cancelable and combo-friendly. And actually for some reason I'm blanking on this, but one of them has a better jumping short hitbox; one doesn't hit on the front of Honda's attack, only on the bottom, but right now I can't recall which. Heh, that's annoying.

The main reason people generally agree that N Honda is better than O Honda is that it's a lot easier for N Honda to get in. He has controllable neutral jumping fierce, a beefier hitbox on his buttslam, and rush slaps, which makes getting in way less of a chore. N Honda also has the command grab, which is obviously a plus. But even without the command grab, O Honda is still a beast once he gets in; his standing sweeps, crouching fierce, crouching short and forward, safe standing jab, walking slaps, and fierce grab/standing fierce option select are really beastly against some characters. They're both good characters. I usually go with N Honda, especially against characters I need to get in on, but in certain matchups, like against Blanka, O Honda is definitely my sumo of choice.

[fatboy]

Snip.....



Not to mention, O.honda's St. Jab > fwd.Jab HHS, is a quick two hit combo for 27% damage (12+15) with great priortiy.

It is like a walking priority box, if you get hit with the st.jab, {BAM} you get hit with a HHS.

[UltraDavid]

Yeah, you can basically walk forward randomly slapping on the jab button and mixing it up with the occasional standing fierce/fierce throw option select against some characters. Oh yeah, standing jab to standing fierce is vicious against some characters. Like, against DeeJay, O Honda's standing fierce actually beats DeeJay's upkicks at the right range, which also happens to be still within O Honda's fierce throw range, so needless to say if you get a standing jab on DeeJay, you can go for some really serious standing fierce/fierce throw option select, more jabs, slaps, etc mixup games. Except, try getting in against DeeJay with O Honda, not the easiest thing!

[Chaghatai]

Wow! Thanks, that was sooo useful. I suspected that O cr. fierce was better, but didn't know that jump roundhouse had more crossup mojo since it looks the same. Also didn't know that I can zone old jab to be safe vs. dp! I knew it was pretty safe, but not THAT good! I also noticed that old cr fierce animation does come out, but only on a standing fierce at medium range. Old st fierce comes out at close range, but loses some distance due to what was originally the crouch move coming out when farther out.

I totally welcome the rush slaps - being able to keep a charge while advancing is no small thing.

It will be interesting to see what aspects of each make it into HD remix

Thanks you once again for the O Honda vs. N Honda perspective - it helped alot. Now off to practice!

[Ehonda]

This match is one of the more difficult ones for Honda to Handle. The speed of Sagats Tigers are formidable. Also Sagats jumping RH is difficult to get around. Your reactions must be at their best. The air Game: Honda Jumping towards Fierce works well as well as his early jumping jab. Sagats jumping RH can keep you at bay through out the match. Timing a headbutt after the RH retracts till when they hit the ground is not recommended.
Ground game: You MUST keep constant pressure on Sagat so he cannot set up his tigers. His Tigers in reality are not that difficult to get around. Jumping over the slow high ones or crouching under the fast high ones make them worthless against Honda. The ones you have to worry about are the low ones. Believe it or not the slow low Tigers are Jail Bait. If go over these from full screen you will be DPed and if you go over the fast ones you need to almost guess at what is being throw unless you are full screen and the slow tigers may trade anyways b/c Honda can land on the slow low tigers after Honda Hits Sagat. Reacting and guessing correctly is key. So i do not recommend going over low tigers to much, unless they are just throwing constant low tigers then keep them honest.. So how do you keep on the pressure? Constant Hands as well as St. RH. if you can link these together you can keep a constant barrage of hits going ( not a combo). E.g. hands - Rh -hands -Rh repeat. Hondas Butt smash has very little use unless you have him trapped. If you do do it you must execute it early so that J.RH does not snuff it out.
Throws: Normal throws work great vs OG sagat but if you face off against new sagat use the oichio when in close as much as possible.
Starting off the match many Sagat players will start with a J.RH. or a Tiger or a tiger knee into DP. If they do the latter then punish them as the DP is landing. if the J.RH do a standing Rh to trip them. if they catch on to this, pause just a second and make them guess at what is coming. As for how you can start... Hands, St.RH, Block, Cr. Jab. or if you can guess a tiger then use Frw Buttsmash.
Another trick is to do Short butt smashes over the low tigers as well as his short squat jump over them.

[mad possum]

I have a dumb question about the Ochio throw. When I tick into Ochio (usually off a cr.jab or jump in splash) I usually use negative edge and release all three punch buttons one after the other. Does this make the tick "safe" against reversals like it does when T.Hawk neg. egdes the Stormhammer after a tick? Or am I just better off just piano-ing the buttons to make sure I get the Ochio off?

[UltraDavid]

Yep, negative edging makes it safe because there's no whiff animation. If the opponent does a reversal attack, you'll block, and if they don't, you'll throw them. The only thing that can beat it is a reversal throw, but that's only really an issue against Gief, Hawk, and another Honda. When I go for crouching jab into ochio as my opponent is waking up, I make sure I'm out of my opponent's reversal normal throw range and then roll from toward to down, press jab then strong-fierce (for a crouching jab with strong/fierce buffered in), continue rolling to down and down-back, and then let go of the buttons going fierce then strong then jab. I do fierce first because fierce ochio does huge stun, enough so that two ochios in a row will probably stun your opponent, so it's best to give it preference.

[mad possum]

I know Fierce Ochio does more stun but do any of them have different ranges? I know ST 'Gief players claim the different SPD's have different ranges, not just different damages. I've never heard of either one being confirmed (i need to get a copy of the Yoga Hyper book, LOL).

[UltraDavid]

Nah, all the ochios have the same range, although the fierce one does more damage as well as stun. The different strengths of spd do have different ranges, though, and you can test that for yourself pretty easily in training mode.

[fatboy]

. The different strengths of spd do have different ranges, though, and you can test that for yourself pretty easily in training mode.

I do not believe this is true. :shake: I have not experienced this in ST. I feel that all the SPD have the same range. I could be wrong, I am no expert, human, and make mistakes. I have tested this in training mode, used it in game play, and not found any correlation in button strength to grabbing distance in ST for the 360+ P.

There easily could have been a set up I missed, or something I over looked that could have better shown the differences in range. Like I said I am no expert. :clown:

However, my statement is also supported through NKI's ST page. The throw data for "Zangief's SPD," does not change with the button used. It illustrates the difference in range with the Kick 360s and button strength, but shows there are none with 360 + Punch.

Check it out for yourself! :tup: http://nki.combovideos.com/

The button strength does however, change the amount of damage done by the 360+p and the amount of recovery on a whiff. There are marginal differences in recovery for the damage gained.

Respectively:

Jab = 25% Damage/ 21 Frames Recovery
Strong = 28% Damage/ 23 Frames Recovery
Fierce = 30% Damage/ 25 Frames Recovery:


This is verified in YBH. I believe these damage % are based on normal characters (I.e. Ryu), and does not apply to Rasin's throw damage character rules. (See "ST in the house" thread.)

IMHO, for what it is worth, if there is no differnce in range, go for the fierce SPD every thime.

[UltraDavid]

Well I almost always drum strong-fierce when I do spd and I think most people do that, so it's not really a big deal. But I remember wondering about this a couple years ago and going into training mode to test it by pushing my opponent into the corner and then by using the space between Gief's feet and the opposing character's feet and by looking at the background, trying out the ranges of the move move by jumping neutrally up, doing the motion in the air, and releasing punch just as I hit the ground to make I'm not accidentally walking forward. And I'm pretty sure I found jab to have a slightly better range. Heh as long as I've been playing Gief, I've heard people on SRK and in real life argue about whether the different spd strengths have different ranges.

I've also looked at NKI's translation of that data and been confused by the listing of all the spds as having the same range, especially, as you point out, considering that the different ranges of the atomic suplexes are listed. But all of Gief's normal throws are lumped into one category as well despite the fact that some have noticeably different ranges (particularly roundhouse grab), so I don't think the fact that spd only has one range listing is conclusive.

[fatboy]

But all of Gief's normal throws are lumped into one category as well despite the fact that some have noticeably different ranges (particularly roundhouse grab), so I don't think the fact that spd only has one range listing is conclusive.

Many good points. As I said, I am not a authority. I was honestly bringing it for more a piont of discussion. It doesn't matter much either way honestly. :looney:

All that really matters to me is if I want to have your character "Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground!" That your character does get "Spun uncontrollably skyward... Driven brutally into the ground!"

If that makes sense.... :wtf:

[COUM]

The different strength SPDs definitely have different ranges. Even the difference between Jab and Fierce SPD is very slight (about one cr.Jab's pushback at most), but it is there.

[Ehonda]

Here is a bit of info that might be surprising to some. I have only seen this one time and one time EVER!!!! I had a stored ochio... the opponent came up and tried a strong throw with Honda, i some how( while in the throw animation where Honda is grabbing you across the chest the put you to the ground (this is a regular grab not the oichio). ) must have reversal oichoed the grab after the animation for the grab had already started and even while i was in the throw animation itself so this was either a glitch or if timed correctly you can Never be thrown while stored. I would love to duplicate this again.

[Don Calzone]

Which characters do Honda crossup when doing the ochio on them when they are in the corner?

[meeya]

What is the counter move to beat deejay meaty combo from behind ?

[Raisin]

Which characters do Honda crossup when doing the ochio on them when they are in the corner?
My initial reaction was "nobody," and after testing it again really fast, I'm unable to replicate an oicho where the opponent starts in the corner and Honda ends up on the opposite side.

Maybe(?) you got confused by the situations when the opponent appears to be in the corner but is actually a half-step away from it. It's possible to do it then and end up on the opposite side, because there's some space between their body and the corner. I know sometimes I've done an oicho in such situations and have not been sure which side I'm going to end up on because I wasn't sure if they were cornered or not. :wonder:

What is the counter move to beat deejay meaty combo from behind ?
Just making sure, but you're talking about when you get knocked down and DeeJay goes for a meaty, crossup j.MK as you're standing up?

I don't know. :bgrin: I have done stuff like LP headbutt which whiffs entirely but has enough invincibility to get you away (kinda like Chun's Bird Kick). I also believe any of the down-up specials can get you away 'cause they're invincible, but I believe you can get punished from behind if DeeJay reacts quickly enough. I don't have time to test this stuff for sure right now, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help you out.

[meeya]

Yes, from standing up after knock down with the annoying deejay meaty move...

hate those sickening move... lol

[UltraDavid]

If the opponent is all the way in the corner, ochio doesn't cross up. Raisin's guess that your opponent wasn't all the way to the corner sounds spot on to me.

You should just block DeeJay's crossup jumping forward. You can buttslam out of it, but it's not worth the risk because if you successfully do a reversal buttslam you either go free or get punished for it, and if you mess up on the reversal buttslam you get comboed, probably dizzed, and then the round is pretty much over. The best way to deal with that situation is to block and immediately store an ochio and start drumming the punches, so that if DeeJay wanted to go for a throw or if he messes up on his poke strings you'll get a free throw, but if he successfully poke strings out of harm's way, whatever, not a big deal.

It's really stupid for DeeJay to close enough on Honda to go for a crossup jumping forward. DeeJay does much better against Honda by keeping him out with max outs, upkicks, and various normals than he does if he tries to get in; he'll probably win if he keeps Honda out, but he'll probably lose if Honda gets in.

[Raisin]

It's really stupid for DeeJay to close enough on Honda to go for a crossup jumping forward... You should just block [it] and immediately store an ochio and start drumming the punches...
Thanks, I knew there was a good reason why people rarely try to cross Honda up in high-level matches. Am I correct in assuming this pretty much extends to all opponents fighting Honda and not just DeeJay?

When and how do you store the oicho, during the blockstun of blocking the initial crossup jump attack? That takes pretty fast input, no?

[UltraDavid]

Meh, it's not hard to get an ochio motion in there, you have enough time. You can buffer the ochio motion into your blocking, do the motion once you've started blocking, whatever.

It's stupid for most characters to get close to Honda, especially characters that do better when they keep him out. The characters Honda beats usually want to get close to him, but not necessarily to throw him. Gief and Hawk want to tick throw him, but that's fine for them because their throw ranges are larger than Honda's ochio range.

[Ehonda]

crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.

[The Mullah]

i tried having a bash with hinda on my xbox copy of AE and i couldn't get the stored ochio to work. i'd do HCB , hold d/b for a second and the release the punches and nothing would happen. WHat am i doing wrong? i could get them ove to come out normally

[Footsy Bebop]

Did you pick old ST Honda? you have to hold the back button and hit start when you select super turbo mode, to get the true ST versions with stored supers/moves, you'll hear a different chime when you do this correctly.

[The Mullah]

thanks for that footsy, works a charm!

[Jude]

I went to DBQ BBQ the other weekend. I had only been to a few tournaments previously, and this was the first one that I did fairly well in.

I had a great round of Honda Dic matches against NKI that I learned an immense amount from. Which I'd like to break down and talk about but I'll do that later, since none of them were taped. There are some matches that you can watch though and tell me what you think.

There were some situations that I ran into that I wasn't really sure how to handle. I've watched them a lot and have a pretty good idea of what I could have done different or things to try but the more input I could get the better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0A8ME2eCAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGw3xWAvaRY


I'm not sure quite what I was trying to do with that first buttsmash.

At about 0:20 I was trying to jab headbutt when she was flipping over me. I guess that probably isn't a good idea since I'd loose my charge. I'm not sure what the hitbox for the headbutt is either whether it would hit behind me or not. I figure the best option is to just try to block and oichio when she lands.

I got kind of greedy going for a third throw in the corner, and I was half expecting the super, would a buttsmash on wake up been my only/best option to avoid it?

I had some timing issues in the second match and wasn't sure quite what to do when she was flipping over me again at the end.

The second match he played a more defensive and gave me a little harder time. I still could have come out on top though if I had made a few better choices and was just more familiar with what to do in certain situations I think.

I'd be happy for your input.

[Warrior's Dreams]

I'm no expert, but I can offer some observations:

Above all else, STORE YOUR OICHO whenever possible! A good place for this is in video 2, 0:40-0:43 seconds. Once Chun countered your jump in attempt, she moved in for some c.jabs. You have to do the stored oicho motion in the air and hold db. Since she was so close, you could've used your stored oicho and gained control of the match. Another good place you couldve used this is at about 1:00 in video 1. You sumo splashed and landed just short of hitting her, but close enough to where you could've used stored oicho and taken over the match

Another things to work on is crossing up with a belly flop-> stored oicho. Again, unless Chun is charging down, she has no reliable anti air if shes on the ground and you're about to attack from the air. She has up kicks, but if you can get in a postiion where she isnt charging down, then bellyflop->stored oicho -> c.jab->oicho her to death.

EDIT: Ok, maybe she does have a reliable anti-air with s.mk or s.rh. Anybody want to confirm this?

I'm not sure if this is possible, but in the last seconds of match 2, when she had you in the corner, and was hitting you several times when you were blocking, you might have been able to interrupt those with a medium sumo splash, kinda like ryu would with a DP.

For the flip kick, I would just hold downback and block it. Then maybe medium sumo splash/oicho/c.jab mixup depending on your gut reaction.

Dont jump over her fireballs, but block them instead. Even though it still pushes you away, she cant do them forever. Keits knew that because of Honda's big ass hitbox, it'd be easier to hit you with them. Honda seems to have to jump earlier to avoid them. Knowing this, Keits buffered the lightning legs in the fireball recovery animation, and it worked well. If she does throw fireballs for what seems like forever, then shes getting predictable and you can bellyflop -> stored oicho her.

If you must jump, try to make it so that either your j.mk/j.rh hits her so that you can gain a little more hang time and hopefully clear the fireball, or, to down lk to reduce your hitbox. Store the oicho throw as well and if you see an opportunity, use it.

If you jump at an enemy but when you land you arent close enough to do stored oicho, and you anticipate this (through practice), keep tapping mp so when you land, you can do the moving HHS and push her back some.

Hope this helps
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++












Ok, now I have 2 questions; both involve cross ups:

1) Lets say Honda is on the left, opponent is on the right. When honda crosses up someone with d.mk (bellyflop), he can store the oicho, but initially he is facing right. But, when he lands, now he is facing left.
So my question is this: When do you start storing the oicho? When is is still facing right, or when you switch directions and face left? When do you exceute it as well? Does negative edging help any?

2)
Posted by ehonda
crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.

Similar question, except now someone is crossing up honda. When do you store the oicho? While honda is facing right? or when honda turns around and is facing left? When do you excecute it? Does negative edging help any?

[mad possum]

Jude,

From the right range forward buttsmash can counter almost anything Chun does, including her Super if you time it right. But if she fakes you out and you whiff it you will get punished.



Warrior,



I always do the Ochio in the direction that Honda will be facing AFTER the cross-up. That has always worked for me. Kind of like if someone crosses you up while your charging for a headbutt in one direction if you flip your joystick to the other side at the same time Honda turns around (goes from facing left to facing right for example), then you'll keep your charge.

And you should always negative edge the Ochio, I now almost always negative edge all three punch buttons then release them one after the other (kinda like negative edge and piano at the same time, thanks for that tip Ultradavid!). That way you'll just end up blocking if you mess up or they reversal.

[deadfrog]

Random awesomeness: on GGPO the other day with a pretty cool dude named Top-Ninja. While he was playing as Guile, and he air threw me out of a butt splash. I thought it was pretty frickin cool. :rofl:

Regarding Honda's headbutt, which characters have a rapid fire normal (standing or crouching jabs or shorts, I guess) that will beat it? Trade with it?

Which characters are able to punish the headbutt on block? With what?

[RWD]

1) Lets say Honda is on the left, opponent is on the right. When honda crosses up someone with d.mk (bellyflop), he can store the oicho, but initially he is facing right. But, when he lands, now he is facing left.
So my question is this: When do you start storing the oicho? When is is still facing right, or when you switch directions and face left? When do you exceute it as well? Does negative edging help any?
I might be misreading this, but are you going directly from crossover d.MK straight into Oochio? If so I would recommend doing crossover d.MK, c.LK > Oochio instead as this forces a crouch block which in turn reduces the chances of being reversal thrown after the crossover - going directly from d.MK into Oochio isn't a good idea overall imo since the opponent is at the advantage defensively.


2)
Posted by ehonda
crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.

Similar question, except now someone is crossing up honda. When do you store the oicho? While honda is facing right? or when honda turns around and is facing left? When do you excecute it? Does negative edging help any?
Store after he has turned around and certainly use negative edge, i'd recommend aiming to Oochio after the inital crossover has been blocked since good players will use a decent block string to push you out of Oochio range, however, if they botch the transition from crossover into the combo attempt, you'll pull them right out of it.

Hope that helps.

[UltraDavid]

Regarding Honda's headbutt, which characters have a rapid fire normal (standing or crouching jabs or shorts, I guess) that will beat it? Trade with it?

Which characters are able to punish the headbutt on block? With what?
Everyone can hit him out of or trade with the headbutt, it's not hard. Even characters without a rapid fire normal can do it, like Dhalsim does with down-back jab or Blanka with standing short. Some characters don't need to do this, but everyone can.

And nobody can punish the headbutt on block, it's safe. The only time you can get hit after it is if you headbutt over a low tiger shot, hit Sagat, and then as you recover fall on top of the low tiger shot.

[deadfrog]

Gotcha. Thanks a ton for the answer, dude! :smile:

[Professor Jones]

A good thing that most characters can use against the headbutt is to jump back into the corner when you feel that one is coming. When honda reaches the corner after doing a torpedo, he will immediately go into the ending animation of the move wich lasts 25 frames. By this time you are right above him (since you jumped back) and have plenty of time to land a fat combo on your way down. Of course don't get too predictable and start jumping back non stop, it's way more effective if used from time to time. The good thing is that the honda player will now think twice before doing a torpedo. And if he doesn't it's all good too, free combos for you !

[X-Static]

I've been playing O.Honda recently, and I have to say that he is a very fun character. I suggest that people give him a try. He plays quite a bit different from ST Honda. You can play a bit more offensively because the chop (which is a great anti-air) is available at all times.

Here's a video that might add some motivation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZNVYnpBuow

This is O.Honda vs CE Guile (Muteki!)

[UltraDavid]

If O Honda had N Honda's strong and fierce slaps, better jumping short and butt slam hit boxes, and controllable jumping fierce, in other words, if he had N Honda's better ways of getting in, he'd be a really good character (and he could use N Honda's crossup jumping roundhouse. Love his cancelable standing/crouching jab, standing kick sweeps, crouching fierce sweep, standing fierce chop, and walking jab slaps. Unfortunately, on the characters Honda wants to get in on, he's definitely worse than N Honda. I think he's at least as good and in some cases better than N Honda against the characters Honda wants to keep out or play zoning games with, though. Basically, N Honda is better for getting in, O Honda is at least as good or better at keeping out.

[X-Static]

Yeah, I understand that N. Honda is better, but O. Honda isn't bad either and is quite fun to use. I like both.

[UltraDavid]

Not bad overall at all, but he does lose to keepaway characters worse than N Honda. I like using him too, and I hope Remixed Honda has elements of both O and N Honda in him.

[Cronopio]

Ok, I know this is a stupid question, but anyways. How do I beat Blanka's j.LK (and j.MK?)? I dunno if it's because my timing is off, but my torpedoes get beaten every single time. Same with MK buttslams. Tried jumping Jab, which seems to be good at mid-screen situations, but not near the corner.

I have the same problem against every Blanka I fight. Please someone help this scrub :(

[UltraDavid]

Last-minute jab headbutt. Not so last-minute that Blanka gets to land first, but time it so that you'll hit him as late as you can and you'll beat his jump-ins every time. If you're talking about crossup jumping short, you should probably just block, but if you really wanna get out then go for a roundhouse buttslam.

[Cronopio]

So it's my timing then. I'll try to tune-up my headbutt timing. Thanks.

[studtrooper]

Who are Honda's worst matchups? In my short ST experience, I find that shotos/Sagat that know how to zone and SRK on reaction (most of the time anyway) are my main weaknesses. But then again, anyone who can SRK on reaction is a really good player anyway. I know that Deejay is supposed to be a big anti-honda, but I guess I haven't really run into a super DJ yet.

In HF, Guile and Chun were huge counter Honda picks, but both seem more managable to me in ST.

[UltraDavid]

I'd say his worst matchups are DeeJay, Ryu, and O Ken, and then N Ken, Chun, and Guile after that. I don't think O Sagat is that bad a matchup for him, to be honest. I think he loses to O Sagat, but I think it's like 4-6, although I wouldn't object too seriously to putting O Sagat at around the same difficulty as Guile.

DeeJay's probably his worst matchup. The maxout is really hard to get over because it's so wide, comes out so fast, and can be made either really slow or really fast, and when you do get past it DeeJay has a hundred attacks that all seem pretty much tailor made to beat Honda's jump-ins and buttslams.

[studtrooper]

I haven't really had much O.Sagat matchup experience. Every time I find a guy who plays him I usually beat him pretty good, but seeing pro O.Sagat usage from Evo makes me realize that when used right Honda is definitely at a disadvantage.

I've also been told that when used right, DJ's Maxout->Slide is pretty much unbeatable if timed right. I've never played against someone who could do it to me without fail (and once I get in, it is usually over), but I know it's easy to people who play the match a lot.

[studtrooper]

Is there any way to reliably ochio out of balrog throw traps?

[Kyouya]

I been playing honda recently, and i like him a lot, he can do pretty well against almost the full cast, o.ken and ryu players who can do srk on reaction are my nightmares :sad:

And for the boxer loop throw, u can do the ochio motion with fierce~strong, if u fail the ochio, u'll get the bear huge, i think this throw have more range than ochio, and the same than boxer throw (im not sure about this, if someone can correct it...) I do this and almost never fails to me :lovin:

[UltraDavid]

Do stored negative edge command grab to get out of that, it should work every time. So press jab-strong-fierce and half circle back before you get up, hold the stick at down-back, and let go of fierce-strong-jab as you get up. If it doesn't work because he's doing a tick from too far away, just drum the punch buttons again.

[Thelo]

What are viable things to do to counter Claw's wakeup wall dive shenanigans, where he times a wall dive that may or may not crossup just as I get to my feet from a knockdown?

The usual anti-air jab headbutt doesn't work very well since I lose my charge as soon as Claw crosses to the other side. It almost seems the safest way to act is to just guess a direction and block high, but half the time I just get knocked down and Claw does another wall dive...

[UltraDavid]

Block or buttslam, depending on the situation. Buttslam will usually get you away from Claw and basically set both of you back to neutral positions, but in some situations, depending on where you are on screen and how Claw controls his dive, he can actually punish you at the end of your buttslam with slide and then start a new dive. Try to identify those situations and just block them.

[Thelo]

Block or buttslam, depending on the situation. Buttslam will usually get you away from Claw and basically set both of you back to neutral positions, but in some situations, depending on where you are on screen and how Claw controls his dive, he can actually punish you at the end of your buttslam with slide and then start a new dive. Try to identify those situations and just block them.
Buttslam indeed works like a charm, thanks for the tip :)

[studtrooper]

Any tips for turtle Guiles who are also incredibly patient and can reversal nearly all the time? It's like fighting a spiked wall that throws fireballs at you.

[UltraDavid]

Guile can be pretty annoying. You wanna limit jumping over booms to attack him to a minimum, because you're probably gonna get flash kicked and maybe crouching fierced. The only time that's a reasonable thing to do is if you're standing at about the range of your jumping forward or roundhouse and you have great reactions and jump over a boom as soon as it comes out, but that's pretty rare. Jumping is also ok if see the Guile player standing... also rare.

Better ways to get around booms depend on where you are on screen, but usually you want controllable neutral jumping fierce or neutral jumping kick or just bulldogging (walking up and blocking booms on reaction, then walking forward again), but toward jumping forward/roundhouse/short and forward buttslam are fine in some situations too. Make sure that if you're going to jump over a boom that you recognize what speed it is first, and if in doubt just block. You can follow up a jump over a boom with strong/fierce slaps, bulldogging, buttslam, headbutt, jumping toward forward/roundhouse, or toward standing roundhouse sweep.

A great spot for you to try to stand is at like standing sweep range. Here you can sweep Guile with toward standing roundhouse, chip him strong/fierce slaps, beat out crouching forward with your crouching forward/strong/roundhouse, or do walk up fierce grab or ochio.

One thing to note is that if you do fierce grab on Guile midscreen, you can hold jumping toward and do down+fierce for the splash, and it'll usually cross him up and always be a safe jump. The only problem is that since it usually but randomly crosses up, you can't be sure which way to block if Guile does a reversal flash kick/super. Generally just block like you're gonna cross up. It's stupid for Guile to try reversal most of the time because most of the time you'll safe jump, so he'll probably just block expecting a cross up. Once you're there, you can do all sorts of things, like crouching jab to fierce grab or ochio, crouching short to whatever-strength buttslam, strong slaps, crouching roundhouse, whatever. You can also mix this up by just doing toward jumping forward after the fierce grab, which will never be a crossup.

[studtrooper]

Yeah, I understand that N. Honda is better, but O. Honda isn't bad either and is quite fun to use. I like both.

I love to use both. O.Honda has a nasty 3 hit combo + HHS block damage that is too easy to land (crossup belly flop->cr.LP->LP HHS). Takes a ton of damage plus you are essentially charged for ether sumo smash or headbutt at the end of it. If you nail them with a headbutt after the combo (like if they try to jump away) it is dizzy time and pretty much GGPO.

Guile can be pretty annoying. *snip*

Yeah. I almost never have a problem with Guile because most people play him the same. It is just that rare player that has perfect zoning + patience and reversal skill that just seems nearly impossible to crack with a character lacking a fireball.

The person who pretty much made me ask this question was wolf1 (I think that was his name). He said your Honda actually busts his Guile up, which is pretty damned impressive. Wish there was a video or two of those matches.

[Thelo]

Any tips for turtle Guiles who are also incredibly patient and can reversal nearly all the time? It's like fighting a spiked wall that throws fireballs at you.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, feel free to question this advice.

I've found that a very useful thing to remember against Guile is that he cannot use his flash kick for a short time after throwing a sonic boom, so you've got a short window of time where it's relatively safe to jump over that boom or buttslam him. On the other hand, be extremely careful if he doesn't throw a boom for a short while as that probably means he's preparing for a flash kick.

The towards+roundhouse far sweep is also pretty useful to punish his pokes as it outranges his normals and can trade with booms in your advantage.

Bulldogging is often very difficult against him because of his incredible recovery after booms, a good Guile will throw you enough booms to push you back from blocking the booms so you won't actually advance anywhere. Some Hondas like jumping straight up with the controllable FP but once again that doesn't let you go anywhere and mistiming the jumps is dangerous. Against a good Guile, your only real option from a far distance is to just jump over booms or SK/MK buttslam through them instead. HK buttslam is pretty dangerous to use to advance, though, since it's fairly easy to counter. I try to only use the HK buttslam if I'm sure it'll actually hit Guile, and never use it just to advance. In any case, where you want to get is just out of range of his sweeps, from there you can punish whatever he does.

But Honda vs Turtle Guile still remains a lot of guesswork and mind games for me. I often do buttslam+HHS or far sweep if I guess he's going to boom. Far sweeps are also useful against pokes, and sometimes Guile gets twitchy enough with them that he'll try to psychic Flash Kick them, which often fails and nets you a free hit. If he gets afraid to throw booms (i.e. he's storing his Flash Kick and waiting for you to jump) I'll just MP HHS him for tick damage, since it's impossible for him to Flash Kick you on reaction. If you're at the right distance, even if he does throw a boom the MP HHS will often trade anyway, and most pokes will be cleanly stuffed. Learn to recognize that distance and be ready to HHS him for free tick (or counter!) damage.

Technically you could also try a walk-up grab, but most Guiles will poke too much for that to be viable and you'll usually be a bit too far for it to be much of a surprise.

But all these depend on your ability to predict your opponent. The scariest Guiles are those who can reversal Flash Kick only after they see you start a move to tick-damage them, like a buttslam+HHS. Perhaps the safest thing to do after you score a knockdown is to get close to him and try a negative-edge Oochio - if he tries a reversal Flash Kick you'll just block him, if he tries to block or poke you'll get the throw. It's often hard to get into range fast enough, and it's still pretty dangerous if he decides to go for the counter-throw, but you can train him to not do that by doing meaty far sweeps instead, once in a while.

A crazy thing I like to do in combination with that is to use a buttslam to get close to him as he gets up, but purposefully do it early so I either land before he gets up, or it counts as a safe jump and I'm safe from reversal Flash Kicks anyway. And then do the negative edge Oochio stuff. Bonus points if it crosses up! You have to do it really early though. Often Guile will try to reversal Flash Kick it since the move is so obvious, but since you're already landed and blocking you'll get the advantage. Then maybe mix it up by sometimes actually hitting him with the buttslam+HHS for some sweet tick damage so he never knows whether to reversal flash kick or not - that's much more dangerous to do against reversal fiends but it does increase your psychological "fear factor".

Overall, though, the only "safe" thing you can do is use that small safe window after a boom to jump-in FP or buttslam and do some tick damage - and that depends a lot on your reflexes... Generally I try more to win the psychological war against Guile because he can technically psychic Flash Kick me anytime else than after a missed boom if he's calm enough, so I want to do everything I can to upset him and make him lose his concentration. Where Guile thrives on regularness and predictability, you prefer chaos to happen and screw his well-timed patterns. So don't be afraid to take gambles and try to guess his moves because overall you'll generally get more out of correct guesses than Guile will out of your mispredictions. Honda vs Turtle Guile must really get into Guile's mind to win the match, both to predict his actions and to instill paralysing fear.

[Thelo]

A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

As I said earlier, when you're at your traditional ideal range (just out of Guile's sweeps and within your far sweep range) you have some good options available, most notably your MP HHS (the leading crouch MP will often beat Guile's low kicks and the HHS itself is basically impossible to flash kick on reaction, though it will lose to Guile's crouch MK IIRC). Guile's sweeps beat your own, but if he gets too sweep-happy you can just headbutt them (again, practically impossible to counter on reaction, but it's riskier because it'll cleanly lose to booms).

Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

However there is another range where you can be deadly and that is a bit further back, when you are charged, within the range of the RK buttslam. You'll often end up there from blocking a boom at the traditional good distance. You look pretty harmless at that distance and Guile will be tempted to Sonic Boom you, but your advantage is that you're just far enough to have the time to RK buttslam on reaction when Guile throws the boom. The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda. The key here is to be patient and avoid buttslamming until Guile does throw that boom. You really want to focus all your concentration on Guile to catch him as he booms (and he is extremely likely to boom at some point).

Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late. Normally you'd want to jab headbutt him instead (headbutt is a better anti-air) but only having to focus on the buttslam makes it easier to react fast enough.

If Guile catches on, though, you're entering a whole new level of mind games because he can guess you're going to do that and immediately do a jumpkick after the boom to knock you out of the buttslam, and frankly that's pretty much all he can reasonably do. But he can't reliably do that on reaction, he has to guess it. And if you guess he's going to do that (throw a boom, jumpkick to stuff your buttslam) then you can wait for him to jump and counter-headbutt him out of the air easily. If you guess wrong you'll just block the boom and be pushed back a bit, so it's a fairly safe thing to do.

Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. Sounds pretty risky, and it is, but generally you don't care because Honda is such a brute that you only need to guess right two or three times to win.

[studtrooper]

A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

As I said earlier, when you're at your traditional ideal range (just out of Guile's sweeps and within your far sweep range) you have some good options available, most notably your MP HHS (the leading crouch MP will often beat Guile's low kicks and the HHS itself is basically impossible to flash kick on reaction, though it will lose to Guile's crouch MK IIRC). Guile's sweeps beat your own, but if he gets too sweep-happy you can just headbutt them (again, practically impossible to counter on reaction, but it's riskier because it'll cleanly lose to booms).


Just getting into sweeping range is a huge challenge to peepz that know the matchup well. Guile has so many tricks (backhand, boom, sweeps, flashkick) that its like I have to eat booms to get in. Also, I can't immediately do a MP HHS (can't tap that fast). May have to work on that.



Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

No it isn't. Not against anyone that knows Honda's super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I've played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.

A bit more on Honda vs Guile:

However there is another range where you can be deadly and that is a bit further back, when you are charged, within the range of the RK buttslam. You'll often end up there from blocking a boom at the traditional good distance. You look pretty harmless at that distance and Guile will be tempted to Sonic Boom you, but your advantage is that you're just far enough to have the time to RK buttslam on reaction when Guile throws the boom. The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda. The key here is to be patient and avoid buttslamming until Guile does throw that boom. You really want to focus all your concentration on Guile to catch him as he booms (and he is extremely likely to boom at some point).

Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards. Even without it I'll most likely trade with a crouching FP in Guile's favor. Then it is footsies into boom to knock me back.




Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late. Normally you'd want to jab headbutt him instead (headbutt is a better anti-air) but only having to focus on the buttslam makes it easier to react fast enough.

If Guile catches on, though, you're entering a whole new level of mind games because he can guess you're going to do that and immediately do a jumpkick after the boom to knock you out of the buttslam, and frankly that's pretty much all he can reasonably do. But he can't reliably do that on reaction, he has to guess it. And if you guess he's going to do that (throw a boom, jumpkick to stuff your buttslam) then you can wait for him to jump and counter-headbutt him out of the air easily. If you guess wrong you'll just block the boom and be pushed back a bit, so it's a fairly safe thing to do.

Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. Sounds pretty risky, and it is, but generally you don't care because Honda is such a brute that you only need to guess right two or three times to win.

A smart guile would never ever jump into a charged honda. Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.

I know this is a guessing game for honda when the guile player knows how to work the match. I was just hoping that honda had some secret answer to make the match a little less of an uphill battle. I've only run into two "Invincible Turtle" guiles on GGPO so far, but I would like to try and put up a better fight next time :tup:

Thanks for the info guys.

[COUM]

Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards.

uhh what

[studtrooper]

It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.

[COUM]

yeah that doesnt work dude

[studtrooper]

O rly? Making me doubt myself, eh? I'll test it when I get back from work :(

[Ganelon]

None of the projectile charge specials allow you to end on a diagonal direction. This isn't boxer we're talking about here.

[Kyouya]

It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.

NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...

[Thelo]

No it isn't. Not against anyone that knows Honda's super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I've played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.
I've never been Guile-reversaled after a blocked super from fullscreen, and there's been a few Guiles who have tried it. Guile just whiffs. Maybe it's actually possible, but I haven't encountered someone who can do it yet.

Or maybe you're talking about a blocked close-range super? Yeah, that can happen, but normally you want to reserve the super to get close from fullscreen.

Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards.
Nope. It's impossible to throw a boom without losing your down charge. That's your single best weapon against Guile and is why I feel Guile is easier to crack than the shotos, who can DP whenever they want to.

Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.
I haven't really experienced counter throws after buttslams so I can't speak to that (you do have the Oochio which makes it pretty hard for anyone to throw you). However the jumping attacks are a very valid worry and one of the things that'll throw your game, however Guile must guess your buttslam for that because it's extremely hard to do it successfully on reaction. So it's a two-way gamble and you basically have two main options in that situation (out of far sweep range, but charged):

1) Buttslam on reaction after the boom.

- If Guile jump-attacks right away, you lose: you eat a jump attack and Guile likely retreats full screen.
- If he doesn't, you win: your buttslam is either blocked and you can often follow up with HHS, your buttslam trades with his crouch FP and Guile is knocked down which is a Very Good Thing, or it cleanly hits (rare!)

2) Don't move and stay charged.

- If Guile jump-attacks right away, you clearly win: you can easily headbutt him out of the air. He's then knocked down for a while, and you're mobile and can close in on him for whatever wakeup games you want to do.
- If he doesn't, you kind of lose: you block a boom and are pushed back.

If you guess right as often as you guess wrong, on average the gains are bigger for you than they are for him so you'll come up on top. Of course, that implies you can get to HK buttslam range relavitely easily, which isn't that obvious.

[studtrooper]

NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...

All of you are right. I just tested it. For some reason I thought he could. Shows how much I actually play as Guile :xeye:

I swear to god though some people I play against can launch one so quick after a boom...

[mad possum]

All of you are right. I just tested it. For some reason I thought he could. Shows how much I actually play as Guile :xeye:

I swear to god though some people I play against can launch one so quick after a boom...




I believe you can use charge partitioning in ST? Not sure, I only casually play Guile.


Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.

Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile's cr.Forward.

[Thelo]

Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.

Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile's cr.Forward.
Had you actually read my posts, you might have noticed that this is exactly what I've suggested.

[UltraDavid]

Bulldogging is often very difficult against him because of his incredible recovery after booms, a good Guile will throw you enough booms to push you back from blocking the booms so you won't actually advance anywhere. Some Hondas like jumping straight up with the controllable FP but once again that doesn't let you go anywhere and mistiming the jumps is dangerous. Against a good Guile, your only real option from a far distance is to just jump over booms or SK/MK buttslam through them instead.

Bulldogging is one of the several options you need to have to get around Guile's booms and pokes. This matchup isn't about doing one thing or another thing, it's about having several different options and using one you don't think the Guile player is expecting. Bulldogging is useful if you expect the Guile player to wait to boom on reaction or to jump after throwing a boom, for example. Neutral jumping fierce and kicks are probably your best options overall, but they're susceptible to getting jump kicked and crap, so you can't do them every time.

Technically you could also try a walk-up grab, but most Guiles will poke too much for that to be viable and you'll usually be a bit too far for it to be much of a surprise.

If I can teach my Guile opponent to keep poking in expectation of me walking up and throwing him, that's great, I can eat him up with crouching strong, crouching forward, standing jab, standing forward, and crouching roundhouse. The reality is that Guile won't be poking with impunity because he expects those attacks and knows that they usually bust right through his pokes, and even where they trade Honda wins on damage. Don't expect to get walk-up throws very often or to try very often either, but your opponent has to know that you're capable of doing it.

A crazy thing I like to do in combination with that is to use a buttslam to get close to him as he gets up, but purposefully do it early so I either land before he gets up, or it counts as a safe jump and I'm safe from reversal Flash Kicks anyway.

The buttslam has more recovery than the flash kick has startup, meaning that they can never be safe jumps against Guile. I guess they can be safe jumps against someone like Boxer, but you have way better options anyway.

Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there's really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.

Guile can flash kick in between the first blocked hit and the second hit, and a good one will do it every time. Doesn't even have to be reversal timing. And if you do it from farther than midscreen, even if the Guile player isn't charging when you start the super, by the time the opening before the second hit comes around he'll already have a flash kick ready. Basically, don't use the super.

The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda.

You shouldn't usually do anything, you should mix it up as much as possible. Strong/fierce hands, walk up throw, headbutt, walk up poke, whatever, but if you train your opponent to always block after blocking a buttslam and you don't sometimes throw him for his troubles, you're letting him off the hook.

Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late.
No, it basically gets ruined by Guile's jumping attacks, not that there's any reason for Guile to ever jump toward you anyway. He'll neutral jump or back jump with attacks or option-select airthrows sometimes, both of which beat your buttslam straight up, but he won't jump toward you.


Also, mad possum, no, there's no charge partitioning in ST.

[subt-L]

just of note: if you are using honda hk buttstomp to pass through sonic booms, you're doing something very wrong.

if you are ever going to use the roundhouse buttstomp, you're going to need to be doing it near the same time he's throwing the sonic boom for it to have any decent chance of getting blocked.

too many of guile's move anti-air honda out of his buttstomp and if the sonic boom is near you when you start your buttstomp, odd are they can use any of those moves to punish you at any time.

if i play against a good guile, i'm looking to get within a f.roundhouse range. guile can't hit you from here, and with c.strong, s.strong, c.jab, and sometimes c.fierce, you can play a good footsie game while keeping your charge ready for anti air and sonic boom punishing. if they don't want to play with you, then hundred hand slap them to get your chip (and hope they don't flash kick) and hopefully work them into a corner.

if guile spams jabs, you f. roundhouse, and advance.

you can throw in the random fierce headbutt into your footsie game to score knockdowns off of potential low kicks but all in all you want to contain guile stead of having him push you back, which is what getting a blocked headbutt will potentially end up in.

and just as a bit of useful knowledge, if you hit your super on guile as he is throwing his sonic boom, you'll get the ever amazing 2 hit no knockdown guile standing right in front of you situation, which is one of the best things that can happen to you in the matchup... doing damage to guile, getting right in his face with ochio potential and a stored charge... it doesn't get much better. its still very risky, as you pretty much have to do the super simulatenous with his soinc boom for it to hit like this, but in evo 2k6 i hit someone with it like 3-4 times in pools, so if you get a good read, its worth it to try.

[UltraDavid]

Actually I think Guile gets frame advantage if you hit him with the 2-hit crap super. It's almost like the best case scenario for you if you're doing super is for it to get blocked and Guile to not have charge to interrupt it.

Basically, don't use the super.

[Ehonda]

Let me correct something Honda can store a Charge. let me see if i can explain, perhaps there is just a difference in what storing is in this situation. If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing.. works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.

[Thelo]

If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing.. works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.
I do that all the time (Sumo Smash into immediate fierce headbutt) but it seems that 95% of the time the enemy will backjump over the headbutt and throw me for my trouble during my headbutt recovery, so maybe it's worth delaying that headbutt just a little bit to avoid that. The shotos are especially dangerous for this it seems.

[Decoy]

NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion...

Sorry man but you're wrong on this one. Blanka can store a charge with forward hops and O Guile can store a charge with knee bazooka. Both are forward progress pressure moves. Not as powerful as Rogs but still the same thing.

~Decoy

[UltraDavid]

Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.

Also, Blanka can't store charge. Toward hop to ball is done with vertical ball, and it's done by holding down to start charging for the vertical ball, hold down-toward plus kicks to get the hop and keep charging for vertical ball, and then press up+kick. And Guile isn't storing for the same reason, he's still charging while that move is going on.

[Thelo]

Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.
Wait wait, I think we're getting confused here.

When Honda does a headbutt, he has to lose his downcharge, because you can't input it as "charge db, df+punch". So you can't really do headbutt -> immediate buttslam.

But Honda can perfectly well do a buttslam as "charge db, ub+kick", so you can do buttslam -> immediate headbutt without ever losing your backcharge. Sure, you can also just start your charge really fast during the buttslam, but why bother? :wgrin:

[UltraDavid]

That's what's happening, you're charging for a new headbutt. You're not keeping your headbutt charge from before the buttslam, you're charging for a new headbutt and by the time your buttslam finishes, you're fully charged for a new headbutt. You can also charge for another buttslam or for a super during a buttslam.

[Decoy]

Actually Honda can't store charge for the headbutt, it's just that Honda's charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you've already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.

Also, Blanka can't store charge. Toward hop to ball is done with vertical ball, and it's done by holding down to start charging for the vertical ball, hold down-toward plus kicks to get the hop and keep charging for vertical ball, and then press up+kick. And Guile isn't storing for the same reason, he's still charging while that move is going on.

You're right on both counts. I'm using the wrong terms. Blanka and Guile can maintain a charge while performing forward progress moves. NOT store as in the Honda and Chun glitches.

~Decoy

[Thelo]

That's what's happening, you're charging for a new headbutt. You're not keeping your headbutt charge from before the buttslam, you're charging for a new headbutt and by the time your buttslam finishes, you're fully charged for a new headbutt.
O rly? How do you distinguish between the two if their effects are identical (i.e. you can headbutt as soon as you land from a db->ub+K buttslam without letting go of "back")?

Might be kind of a pointless question but I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

[fatboy]

Sorry man but you're wrong on this one. Blanka can store a charge with forward hops and O Guile can store a charge with knee bazooka. Both are forward progress pressure moves. Not as powerful as Rogs but still the same thing.

~Decoy

What he said x 2.
-Fatboy

[UltraDavid]

O rly? How do you distinguish between the two if their effects are identical (i.e. you can headbutt as soon as you land from a db->ub+K buttslam without letting go of "back")?

Might be kind of a pointless question but I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
Because you can do the same thing with buttlsam. Do the motion for buttslam and immediately go back to down in the same way Guile maximizes sonic booms (so, down charge, up-down+kick) and you'll be able to do buttslam immediately on landing. This makes me think that in holding back while doing buttslam motion, you're not storing the back charge, you're merely beginning a new headbutt charge as soon as possible after the buttslam input, and by the time buttslam is done, you have access to a new headbutt.

[Ehonda]

#1 there is no hold back immediately, i never stop holding back trust me the headbutt is charged at all times in this situation. DB +UB still keeps the headbutt charged, you can actually go from db to uf then release headbutt as you land from Buttsmash meaning that it HAD to share the charge... here is another way i know Hondas headbutt has strange priorities in this situation. Honda does a super motion FBF and charges his super ... correct.... ? then Honda can jump backwards as long as he is holding up back while doing this this will keep his Super charged. then when he lands you can start holding forward again. and release super without doing the motion again.

[Cronopio]

I would like advice against defensive Balrogs, the ones that do repeated standing jabs just outside of Honda's jump range.

[Khiempossible]

I would like advice against defensive Balrogs, the ones that do repeated standing jabs just outside of Honda's jump range.

have you tried using your normals? like towards and roundhouse? sounds like that might beat s.jab pretty clean.

I'm not a honda player though. maybe using mp HHS to move forward?

doing nothing but keeping a charge is effective if you have life advantage.

[Cronopio]

Towards + roundhouse does beat standing jabs, but you have to get on range first, which is not an easy task against Balrog. HHS is what I do, but it's risky cause you can eat a low rush.

And yeah I turtle like hell when I have life advantage against those Rogs, but the thing is how to get that life advantage first.

[Khiempossible]

i might walk forward and then block. just to see what he does. figure out how he's going to react to you being in certain ranges with no charge. then after you figure out what his reaction is, bait it and punish.

[UltraDavid]

Bulldog up to standing roundhouse range, blocking dash punches on reaction or prediction, throwing out standing or crouching jab from time to time both to beat out dash punches and to hide the startup of an occasional strong hands. Don't do the hands too close to Boxer because they can actually lose to his jabs, and don't leave them out very long because you can get punished by low dash punch, use them mostly as a quick dash. But don't do the slaps too much, they're not as safe as just trying to walk up.

At some point before you actually get into standing roundhouse range it becomes impossible to block a dash punch on reaction, so start throwing out crouching jab more and more frequently because it really contains Boxer well (but obviously don't get too predictable with it). If he tries to do a crouching attack to beat your crouching strong, that's fine, it means you've broken his standing jab defense and can go into other stuff.

[Cronopio]

but make sure you also throw out standing or crouching jab from time to time both because they beat out dash punches and in order to hide an occasional strong hands.

Oh, this is a nice bit of info, many thanks.

EDIT: and that new paragraph is even better. Great stuff, man.

[Khiempossible]

kk, so I'm playing this honda player online. him honda, me blanka.

I bait a mistake and land j.short

now I crossup j.short repeatedly I mix it up with j.short s.strong.

the best honda players will block and then go for a reversal negative edge oochio

players who can't negative edge oochio will probably fierce for the grab, since s.HP anti airs.

but this guy keeps doing MP HHS.

So does MP grab? I assume so, and if it does, why is he mashing so hard?

is that autofire or what? Cause I've never seen people do that before. Can I call him out? I can't think of any reason to HHS after s.strong or j.short, since if i tick I win, and if I jump I win. the only thing that works is if I try to grab from too close, and he grabs with MP for reversal. Does autofire even guarantee reversal grab? Cause he reversal grabbed all my shit as boxer too.

[UltraDavid]

Well first, off, why are you trying to tick Honda? Dude always wins when getting ticked unless it's by a further-out Gief or Honda. Blanka has big throw range, but Honda's normal throw and ochio ranges are both bigger, and he's certain to get reversal ochio if he does it right.

Strong punch does throw and has big range, but there's no reason to use it in particular when Honda's fierce and roundhouse throws are so good. And no, autofiring strong punch doesn't work for normal throwing, if I recall correctly you can only get an input for a normal throw once every so many frames. My guess as to what's going in is that he's trying to drum punches for a stored ochio, basically an option select, either he gets ochio if you're throwable or slaps if you're not. That's reasonable in some situations, but not really when Blanka is up in your grill ready to jump over you for another crossup.

So, I don't know why the Honda player keeps doing that.

[Khiempossible]

like i said i just mix up between j.short and j.short s.strong.

i believe it was you who oochioed me out of the grab setup, and since then, I've never gone for a grab on honda.

I guess that makes sense. it's too bad that MP HHS loses to xup short strong strong low fierce dizzy.

[mad possum]

I think I know who your talking about and he was prob. trying to reversal throw you with MP throw because he has trouble doing Ochio's (he's an HF player learning ST, if it was who I think it was).


But ya, stored Ochio pretty much throws Blanka's bread and butter tick game out the window.

[Cronopio]

It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.

[mad possum]

It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.


wasn't who I was thinking of then, LOL. Sorry.

I do hate when you get online lag and lag spikes that make HHS come out when you don't want it to.

[Khiempossible]

It was me, and it was because with that lag I couldn't get Ochios at all and just mashed to get to Rog quickly.

oochio wuoldn't have saved you

ggs, that rog slaughtered me.

[Ehonda]

of the people that post here how many are going to EVO?

[Jude]

I'm going.

[UltraDavid]

I'm not, unfortunately.

So I've noticed that if you pick O Honda and do something like air attack, start hitting fierce while still in the air, and then crouching fierce on landing, it's really easy to cancel into fierce slaps, like sometimes I don't even need to press fierce after the crouching fierce to get it. Anyone know why this is? Doing fierce slaps with nothing else going on is really hard for me, but this way it's so easy that I get it accidentally sometimes.

[Thelo]

I'm also going (first-timer here!)

Accidental fierce slaps? This intrigues me. Of course crouching fierce is really long so all that air time + crouching fierce time does leave you plenty of time to mash that button. Too bad crouching fierce is such a blah move but still, it sounds like doing the fierce slaps reliably could be useful, I'll try it out.

Edit: Oh wait, is this O. Honda only? :-/ Yeah, his crouch fierce makes more sense than N. Honda's.

[UltraDavid]

Yeah I've only noticed it with O Honda, and it doesn't even take that many hits of fierce, like 4-5 over the whole process. And it's actually really useful. O Honda's crouching fierce is a great move, but it's punishable on block, so you always want to cancel into it something just in case. In the past I've usually canceled it into buttslam, jab headbutt, or nothing, but canceling it into fierce slaps instead, which keeps you right on the opponent and does a bit of extra chip, is a much better option.

[Ehonda]

yes it works with either version, its kind of like when you start off a round mashing fierceHH, it pretty much builds up the button pushes or something. I'm not sure of the mechanics behind it, it also works if you jump in with fierce punch then go into fierce HH slap for some reason it blurts right out. you can cancel the crouching fierce into a headbutt w/ o. honda( difficult to time though). i was upset that they changed that move to standing fierce instead.

[Jude]

Is there a prefered jumping attack to use when trying to trade with Dhalsim's FK or other anti-airs?

And what about stuffing his crouching LP or MP, is it worth throwing stuff out to discourage him from using them or should you find another way around?

[Dasrik]

Is there a prefered jumping attack to use when trying to trade with Dhalsim's FK or other anti-airs?

And what about stuffing his crouching LP or MP, is it worth throwing stuff out to discourage him from using them or should you find another way around?
Jumping down+Forward has worked pretty good for me. *shrugs*

[UltraDavid]

You just have to know where your jumping attacks' hitboxes are, how far away from Sim you are, and what you think Sim is going to antiair with. It's hard to tell you which attacks to use because it's very situation-specific, but you're gonna be using any of fierce, roundhouse, forward, and down+forward. Down+forward is for when you think Sim is going to try to slide under whatever other attack you're using, the others are for actual antiairs. And don't always jump toward Sim when you're doing it, neutral jumping is just as important.

[Jude]

Thanks, I've got shirts in my pool and I haven't had all that much experience against good Dhalsim players. Hopefully it will help me out a little bit.

I can't wait for the hitbox mode on HD remix.

[Thelo]

So it was a bit sad to see even Kusumondo get totally destroyed against the shotos in Evo finals. It kind of sends the message that any Honda against truly solid shotos is doomed. That fireball-sweep setup is really hard to crack, and jumping neutral FPs are still pretty risky. I know Kusumondo probably whiffed a lot of buttslams through fireballs in these finals but even then he could very well have been counter-sweeped for his trouble...

[fatboy]

^^^^ Dude he played against one of the best shoto's in the world (Valle). If you're playing a character mismatch, like Kusumondo was, he should lose that bad to a shoto as strong as Valle's. The % are not in Kusumondos favor.

Any way you cut it, other than Valle making a series of mistakes. The best Honda in the world should not beat one of the best shotos in the world with any constitancy over the long run.

DOn't get me wrong, I would have loved to see a Honda win Evo. But, the shotos here in the States are pretty beefy. As I said, the % are not in Honda's favor.

[Ehonda]

Kusumondo was playing in my hotel room after the tourney was over. He was talking through an interpreter ( rob)and he stated that he could notice the 1 frame of LAG input that we all had to play on ( mostly through converters being used). It effected his ability to jump straight up over FBs. The players in Japan have such incredible timing (experience) that 1 frame to them is like 4 frames for the average player. The longer you play the game the more you notice lag. He is in his late 30s, i couldn't imagine how much experience he has as a top player. He is the top Honda player in the world HANDS DOWN! If you watch his videos he clears FBs with regularity. He wasn't able to do it on a consistent basis vs Choi or Valle. There must be something to it. But he also was put up against 2 of the 3 shotos in the final 8...YUCK! Sirlin vs Kusumondo would have been a better match up. And like Fatboy stated its just an uphill battle for any Honda player. He did run into 2 players that were Smoking hot in there game play. Valle was on his game and Choi was playing Possessed.
We played Quite a few matches vs Kusumondo and he was losing a little in the beginning but after he caught on he was beating everyone. They only matches he didn't fair as well in were the Mirror matches, but he still won the majority of those. I was only able to beat him 3 out of about 14. our last three matches went 2-1, 2-1, 2-0? very close ones too. but he still got the best of me everytime. He is very patient and adapts very quickly. Graham was beating him in the beginning as well but Kusumondo broke it down towards the end. they were almost even. Axel did well with Guile until the end. Trevor not as good but he got there late. and Spence not so much with SIM.

[studtrooper]

Kusumondo was playing in my hotel room after the tourney was over. He was talking through an interpreter ( rob)and he stated that he could notice the 1 frame of LAG input that we all had to play on ( mostly through converters being used).

I think that's what they call a sore loser. No one could possibly notice a 1/60th of a second delay.

[Ehonda]

yes they can! Trust me! most average players can notice 4 frames most top level players can notice 1-2 frames.

[fatboy]

^^^^^ Yeah there ma be some truth to that. Shirts (I think) and I were talking about how many times we tried to drill with Sim only to have the Air attack come out. If you played something one way for years (ARC version) , a little change can have an huge effect. I think here in the USA we are a little more adaptable b/c we have been forced to play on tons of different versions of the same game.

However, I am not sure how far one person can really take that POV. You have to give some credit to Valle and Choi.. They have always been the top shoto players here in the USA. That does count for something (a huge something IMHO). And they had to play with the same lag.

Granted Honda has to play much more precisely. But the 1-frame lag does not only go one way.

[Mixah]

yes they can! Trust me! most average players can notice 4 frames most top level players can notice 1-2 frames.

I definitely agree with this. There was the OBVIOUS difference in CCC2 ST with the 4-frame lag compared to the arcade / PSX versions, as per the NKI testing. As far as REACTING on that, it's pretty damn impressive, but very noticeable within Kusmondo's fight scenes.

Out of curiosity, is there any data on hitboxes for honda? I'm having a hell of a fucking time fighitng Honda with Dhalsim and Bison. Blanka's getting easier for me... but those two fights are just plain wrong for me.

And another question about Honda... I was playing somebody on GGPO last week who was using honda and he did a meaty c.mp and immediately orocho threw me. How is this done?

[fatboy]

^^^^^^^^^^ facing right (using tekken format) 6,3+mp (or press*),2,1, Punch (or release*).

* Denotes negitive edge.

[Ehonda]

Its just Honda's game is set up that he HAS to jump straight up over FBs and the timing is insanely difficult and 1 more frame of Lag is considerable. Regardless the result would have been the same IMO. But i have seen Kusu play against top Ken players in japan and win go figure. If this had been played on ARC the result would have been the same just a much closer match.

[Mixah]

^^^^^^^^^^ facing right (using tekken format) 6,3+mp (or press*),2,1, Punch (or release*).

* Denotes negitive edge.

Thank you. Is there any escape to this if done correclty?

[Khiempossible]

Thank you. Is there any escape to this if done correclty?

yah, you can reversal back hop after low strong. but it'll get beaten if he predicts it.

[Mixah]

if you're in the corner, that's REALLY dangerous... but thanks. It's seeming to work.

[Ehonda]

i was doing it on occasion this past weekend it can be reversaled but not by all characters. For example i was trying it on Sim but was getting throw just after the jab came out, there are very few frames of animation from when the jab comes out to when you release the button and this is when the reversal has to come out. For example bison cannot reversal from what i hear. He probably can but you have to grossly mistime the loop.

[Thelo]

I'm pretty sure a well-timed Bison super can escape the loop everytime, but obviously he's got to know exactly what he's doing for it to happen.

[studtrooper]

Thanks to whoever gave me some neg feedback and said I suck at games. Honda is one of my mains and I'm pretty good with him. Hit me up on GGPO and I'll show you who sucks.

[UltraDavid]

Anyone can escape the corner ochio trap if you do it within their throwing range, which you probably will be because it's hard and in some cases impossible to back up enough after a landed ochio to get out of your opponent's throw range. Also, any character with an invincible reversal can hit your tick, although some characters like Boxer and DeeJay can't do this either because their reversal has too many frames of startup and you can do a safe tick or because their reversal doesn't hit Honda's crouching jab. Dictator can get out of it with his super. As for Blanka, your best bet is to try to counterthrow, which is doable because of his huge throw range. Backdashing won't help, you'll still get thrown, and doing a ball won't help because even if you hit Honda he'll still be able to knock you down into the corner again and you won't have gained anything.

Mixah I don't think there are any online resources that have hitbox data, although hitboxes are available in that Yoga Book Hyper thingy. The best way to figure out how to beat Sim's limbs etc is just to get experience with all of your moves against all of his.

Heh that's funny about Kusumondo not doing well in mirror matches. In my opinion the Honda-Honda matchup is the least skill-intensive and most random matchup in the game, it's really hard for even an extremely good Honda player to beat a much less experienced player in it (no offense intended Nothingness, but after all, Kusumondo is the best Honda player ever and way better than any of us here). Also too bad about the 1-frame delay, I definitely buy that that affected his play, and it would have been cool to see how he would have done without that handicap (which in my opinion hurts Honda a lot more than it does most characters, considering how reaction-based much of his game is). Although I agree with you guys, I don't think he would have made it through both of the two best shoto players outside of Japan even if there had been no delay.

[Khiempossible]

obviously 1 frame delay hurts huge. think about honda's jab headbutt which is invincible for exactly 3 frames. Adding 1 frame delay to your use of jab headbutt can be monstrous.

and yes, I wouldn't back hop in the corner. In the corner, definitely counterthrow.

But back hop does work vs. grabs. It's invincible on startup. I've reversal backhopped out of gief tick setups midscreen. low roundhouse/grab mixup < back hop.

[Mixah]

last time i played a gief that tried to tick me in the corner like that, he would whiff the spd and then do the 360 + K throw, that would grab me right out of it..

my buddy told me he was doing it just beacuse in case you tried that... guaranteed counter to the hop...

but this isn't a gief or blanka thread. lol

[Ehonda]

Yup i agree with Ultra in this instance. All characters with a full superbar can escape it, also the range is the key if you are outside their throw range then it cannot be escaped. So when you got them in the corner make sure you are outside their Throw range. If you ever look at the yoga book look at the frame data and watch the start up timing of Hondas Bad matchups. see where you can manipulate your opp into doing early wakeups.
As for Kusomondo Don't get me wrong he still got the best of everyone there. Most of his combos were not coming out that he usually did on his you tube matches, he was able to get out jumping RH into super and J.Fierce, C.short, Headbutt out a few times. but not his chains.
As for Dhalsim you need to jump in with Fierce, medium splash, short, and RH...keep him guessing. Baiting him is much better, fake a jump in and do full screen HB. this will leave him open and more than likely will be trying to counter a jump. I also saw Kuso stop Sim with Cshort on limbs. very odd looking.

[Jude]

Evo was a great time, I was surprised at how much Honda love there was going around. I had to move when I got back though so it took me a couple of days to get settled in, but I have the Internet now so I'll have to try to get on GGPO some.

Ehonda: It was good meeting you. I'm sad that I missed out on the ST stuff but we went back to our room and all fell asleep. Next year for sure though.

I'm not sure who else I talked to, I met a lot of nice people though. I was the really tall guy.

Kusumondo was good, really good. He just had bad matchups in the finals. Anybody who got to see him play any other matches was able to see a lot more. I saw him do some crazy stuff but I'll talk about it more later. I learned a lot though, I need to practice up for the next tournament I go to so I don't make Honda look bad.

[studtrooper]

Anyone have any tips against Chun? Does Honda have anything that will beat or trade with her stupid priority air attacks in the air? How do you guys go about punishing or even surviving neck breaker shenanigans (reaaaaly hard to time reversal).

[mad possum]

Anyone have any tips against Chun? Does Honda have anything that will beat or trade with her stupid priority air attacks in the air? How do you guys go about punishing or even surviving neck breaker shenanigans (reaaaaly hard to time reversal).


In the air? A well timed early jumping strong punch is your best bet, will trade or beat Chun's jumping forward.


Don't even try to reversal the neckbreaker unless Chun starts it late. Just learn which way to block and Ochio her after blocking. Be carefull you don't mis-time it and eat Lightning Legs, though.

Main strat against Chun is to just let her walk back into her corner and throw fireballs. Be very patient and work your way up, trap her in the corner and Ochio her to death. If she trys jumping off back wall to get out knock her down with headbutt.

[studtrooper]

It seems Chun has tremendous frame advantage after a deep neckbreaker. Not nearly as much as in HF, but still enough to where if she decides to go for a throw I can't seem to do anything but tech it and hope for the best.

And I still can't block it correctly most of the time :(

[mad possum]

It seems Chun has tremendous frame advantage after a deep neckbreaker. Not nearly as much as in HF, but still enough to where if she decides to go for a throw I can't seem to do anything but tech it and hope for the best.

And I still can't block it correctly most of the time :(



She still can't throw you until your out of block stun and you can store your Ochio while blocking so that shouldn't be a problem.

If you really want to get out of there a very well timed Roundhouse Sumo Smash will get you out but leave you open when you land - Chun can cr. Roundhouse you when you land, knock you down, and start the whole thing over again.


Best bet is still to block and either store Ochio or go for reversal jab headbutt.

[vieja escuela]

Questions about Honda

1 Which one of his two cross-up - down mk and hk - is deep enough to force the challenger to a reverse blocking?

2 1000 hands with hp: I've read the thread and even watched a video and still I neither understand nor I can execute it. How should I input these hps in order to get the move?

3 Oicho loop: is it possible to begin it with a crouch mp instead of a cr. lp?

4 In case of challenger's cross-up the oicho has to be restored again starting with the forward or is it possible to restore it with down, down back from the crouch position?

5 I need some advices about what to do after an oicho. Another oicho is impossible since Honda would be too far from the opponent. A good move is his buttslam but it's not a good option against shotos who can intercept it with a reversal shoryu. The crouched hk and forward hk are slow and can be punished by a reversal. What is a good mix-up to maintain the pressure?

6 I've read in the Wiki that an eventual move doesn't affect the oicho storage. While playing I've got the feeling that I needed to restore oicho every time I missed the throw and obtained a simple crouched punch. How is it possible that the game keeps the oicho stored if even the throw is missed and a punch button activated?

7 I've tried to use some Blanka's tactics with Honda such as the ground cross-up with the headbutt and a short headbutt followed by a grab. But I realized the recovering time after the headbutt is too long and the opponent can easily punish Honda. Is this correct or the ground crossup has any use I can't see?

8 Has Honda's cr. hk any special property?

9 I've got serious problems to close basic combos such as Splash jump-in/st. lp/headbutt and Splash jump-in/
cr. lk/headbutt. I can combo the first two moves but I can't finish the sequence with the headbutt.

The headbutt has to be necessarily made with the lp to close the combo?

And the cr. mk can be cancelled into the headbutt?

10 Let's try to recap basic Honda's combos from the Wiki and this thread:

a) Splash jump-in/cr. lk/headbutt

b) Jump-in/st. lp/headbutt

c) Deep Jump-in cross-up/ st. hk (3 hits)

d) Jump-in/st lp/st mp/ ? (1000 hands with mp or headbutt?)

e) Jump-in/cr lk/buttslam: does it combo?

f) Other suggestions?

[Dasrik]

Questions about Honda

I'll answer the questions that I can because ST Honda is not my forte (I play Old Honda).

1. I believe Honda's down+MK is better for this.
2. I'm pretty sure only the last button press has to be HP for an HP slap, so just make sure the last button you hit is HP. (hand slaps are 3-5 hits in quick succession. I think the number varies between games.)
7. Honda... really can't play like Blanka at all. From what I remember, the torpedo will immediately stop when it reaches an opponent, even if he's on the ground.
8. Not that I'm aware of, but I'm not the best person to answer stuff like that.

[UltraDavid]

1 Which one of his two cross-up - down mk and hk - is deep enough to force the challenger to a reverse blocking?
--Both can do this, but they're used differently. Forward splash is more ambiguous, which can be good against characters that need a toward-back directional input for their reversal, and it has a wider hitbox, so it's what you use for crossups on characters with very thin blocking hitboxes (ie Boxer). It's also usually better as a safe jump. Jumping roundhouse, on the other hand, is good for extra blockstun and puts you a little farther away from your opponent, so it's good for starting a grab setup.

2 1000 hands with hp: How should I input these hps in order to get the move?
--Press fierce really fast 4-5 times in a row. It seems to come out more easily if you're canceling it from something (like crouching short or O. Honda's crouching fierce), but you still need to press the button pretty fast.

3 Oicho loop: is it possible to begin it with a crouch mp instead of a cr. lp?
--Only on Zangief, but you should never try it on him because he'll just get a free spd on you. I always use one of standing jab, crouching jab, or crouching short.

4 In case of challenger's cross-up the oicho has to be restored again starting with the forward or is it possible to restore it with down, down back from the crouch position?
--I suppose you could do it that way, but I usually just wait for the opponent to land to do the motion.

5 I need some advices about what to do after an oicho. Another oicho is impossible since Honda would be too far from the opponent. A good move is his buttslam but it's not a good option against shotos who can intercept it with a reversal shoryu. The crouched hk and forward hk are slow and can be punished by a reversal. What is a good mix-up to maintain the pressure?
--Mix up between jab hands, strong/fierce hands, forward/roundhouse buttslam (which land on different sides of the opponent), walk up grab, and blocking.

6 I've read in the Wiki that an eventual move doesn't affect the oicho storage. While playing I've got the feeling that I needed to restore oicho every time I missed the throw and obtained a simple crouched punch. How is it possible that the game keeps the oicho stored if even the throw is missed and a punch button activated?
--I don't really understand the question, sorry.

7 I've tried to use some Blanka's tactics with Honda such as the ground cross-up with the headbutt and a short headbutt followed by a grab. But I realized the recovering time after the headbutt is too long and the opponent can easily punish Honda. Is this correct or the ground crossup has any use I can't see?
--No use, he's not Blanka and the headbutt doesn't work like the ball.

8 Has Honda's cr. hk any special property?
--It sweeps on both sides. If you and your opponent are coming down from the air at about the same time but you don't know who's gonna be on which side, crouching roundhouse will sweep him either way (assuming he doesn't reversal throw you out of it). It also makes for corner shenanigans. Try fierce grab on Ryu in the corner, walk under your opponent toward the corner, and press crouching roundhouse, and it'll sweep him from behind you (and look kinda weird). This doesn't work on every character, and if I remember correctly it doesn't work on Claw and Chun. Maybe Fei too? Don't recall.

9 I've got serious problems to close basic combos such as Splash jump-in/st. lp/headbutt and Splash jump-in/
cr. lk/headbutt. I can combo the first two moves but I can't finish the sequence with the headbutt.
--Are you charging back soon enough after jumping? You should jump and immediately start holding back on the stick to get enough charge time for the headbutt.

The headbutt has to be necessarily made with the lp to close the combo?
--It can't be comboed after far standing jab, if that's what you're asking. Well, it can for O. Honda, but not for N. Honda.

And the cr. mk can be cancelled into the headbutt?
--Nope, crouching forward cannot be canceled.

10. a) Splash jump-in/cr. lk/headbutt; b) Jump-in/st. lp/headbutt
--When jumping in for combos, jump with jumping fierce or jumping roundhouse. They do more damage than splash and since they also do more hitstun it's easier to combo after them. Of the two, jumping fierce is usually better, but on some characters (like Boxer) I like jumping roundhouse's hitbox better. Plus, the splash usually whiffs on Boxer.

c) Deep Jump-in cross-up/ st. hk (3 hits)
--A better crossup combo is crossup forward splash/roundhouse, standing jab, crouching short xx fierce headbutt. Charging for the headbutt is pretty easy, I just hold in the direction I'm jumping the entire time (so like, toward the opponent as you jump and away from him once you're on the other side, it's the same direction and you should hold it that way the whole time).

d) Jump-in/st lp/st mp/ ? (1000 hands with mp or headbutt?)
--Standing strong isn't cancelable. It can link into a couple things, but nothing good.

e) Jump-in/cr lk/buttslam: does it combo?
--No, you can't combo into buttslam.

f) Other suggestions?
--After I dizzy the opponent I usually do jumping fierce, crouching short, fierce headbutt because it's safer and faster to get out than the crossup into headbutt combo. If you have super, you can do the super motion, hold toward, press up-toward to jump toward the opponent, hit him with jumping fierce, then crouching short, and immediately after that any punch button. Voila, combo into super! Make sure you hope that all the hits of the super actually hit!

[vieja escuela]

First of all I'd like to thank you for your exhaustive answer.



2 1000 hands with hp: How should I input these hps in order to get the move?
--Press fierce really fast 4-5 times in a row. It seems to come out more easily if you're canceling it from something (like crouching short or O. Honda's crouching fierce), but you still need to press the button pretty fast.

Yes, I realized the only way I could perform it until now is when I start pressing the button while I'm blocking a long move (i.e. Dictator's flame).

Maybe is necessary to have a stick with better buttons to obtain this move from a normal state.



4 In case of challenger's cross-up the oicho has to be restored again starting with the forward or is it possible to restore it with down, down back from the crouch position?
--I suppose you could do it that way, but I usually just wait for the opponent to land to do the motion.

Isn't this the same concept that allows to maintain the charge of a special or a super if the opponent switches side?


6 I've read in the Wiki that an eventual move doesn't affect the oicho storage. While playing I've got the feeling that I needed to restore oicho every time I missed the throw and obtained a simple crouched punch. How is it possible that the game keeps the oicho stored if even the throw is missed and a punch button activated?
--I don't really understand the question, sorry.

If the opponent is too far the ochio move will not lead to a throw but to a simple cr. punch: after that the ochio has to be restored in order to be ready to achieve another throw attempt?

8 Has Honda's cr. hk any special property?
--It sweeps on both sides. If you and your opponent are coming down from the air at about the same time but you don't know who's gonna be on which side, crouching roundhouse will sweep him either way (assuming he doesn't reversal throw you out of it). It also makes for corner shenanigans. Try fierce grab on Ryu in the corner, walk under your opponent toward the corner, and press crouching roundhouse, and it'll sweep him from behind you (and look kinda weird).

I don't really understand: if the opponent sees that Honda is switching side while walking after a grab, he will also do a reverse block.

Therefore where is the advantage of the cr. hk?

This doesn't work on every character, and if I remember correctly it doesn't work on Claw and Chun. Maybe Fei too? Don't recall.

Maybe these charas are "light" and they touch the ground before Honda has completed the walking to change the side.


9 I've got serious problems to close basic combos such as Splash jump-in/st. lp/headbutt and Splash jump-in/
cr. lk/headbutt. I can combo the first two moves but I can't finish the sequence with the headbutt.
--Are you charging back soon enough after jumping? You should jump and immediately start holding back on the stick to get enough charge time for the headbutt.

Maybe I'm just too slow, I don't know. I'm starting trying to perform a basic cr. lk plus headbutt at minimum distance but I continue failing: is this move a combo or, to connect, I need the deepness of the splash jump-in?


The headbutt has to be necessarily made with the lp to close the combo?
--It can't be comboed after far standing jab, if that's what you're asking. Well, it can for O. Honda, but not for N. Honda.

No. In other terms my question was: in order to complete the combo is it preferable to use a lp headbutt - the shorter one - and therefore taking advantage of his priority or is it possible to close the combo with any type of headbutts?


And the cr. mk can be cancelled into the headbutt?
--Nope, crouching forward cannot be canceled.

It would be very useful to read a list of the most important cancellable moves of Honda.


10. a) Splash jump-in/cr. lk/headbutt; b) Jump-in/st. lp/headbutt
--When jumping in for combos, jump with jumping fierce or jumping roundhouse. They do more damage than splash and since they also do more hitstun it's easier to combo after them. Of the two, jumping fierce is usually better, but on some characters (like Boxer) I like jumping roundhouse's hitbox better. Plus, the splash usually whiffs on Boxer.

Because of Boxer's small hitbox?

c) Deep Jump-in cross-up/ st. hk (3 hits)
--A better crossup combo is crossup forward splash/roundhouse, standing jab, crouching short xx fierce headbutt. Charging for the headbutt is pretty easy, I just hold in the direction I'm jumping the entire time (so like, toward the opponent as you jump and away from him once you're on the other side, it's the same direction and you should hold it that way the whole time).

Better but too complicated for the moment.


d) Jump-in/st lp/st mp/ ? (1000 hands with mp or headbutt?)
--Standing strong isn't cancelable. It can link into a couple things, but nothing good.

Do you mean that st mp can link with st. hp? Is this a combo?

e) Jump-in/cr lk/buttslam: does it combo?[/B]
--No, you can't combo into buttslam.

Is there any move that do connect with the buttslam?


f) Other suggestions?
--After I dizzy the opponent I usually do jumping fierce, crouching short, fierce headbutt because it's safer and faster to get out than the crossup into headbutt combo.

Wait a second. Do you mean is it possible to connect directly a jump-in with an headbutt without using any other move in the middle?

By the way why don't you cancel the cr. short into a lp headbutt instead of a hp one? The headbutt made with lp should have more priority.


If you have super, you can do the super motion, hold toward, press up-toward to jump toward the opponent, hit him with jumping fierce, then crouching short, and immediately after that any punch button. Voila, combo into super!

I didn't think about it and it's very useful. Anyway I'm technically too far to combo super moves for the moment: the ability of combining charging supers is, in my opinion, the most complicated technical stuff to perform in St.

Make sure you hope that all the hits of the super actually hit!

The less I use Honda's super the better I feel. The only use of it that I found is too pass through fireballs - especially Chun's ones - hoping I dont miss the short window of invulnerability (Ryu's fireballs can block the super at his beginning).

And without mention the fact that good players can always hit me with a reversal in the big gap between the first and the second headbutt.

Other questions:

1 Would you complete my list of basic combos? (no supers involved or Kusumondo only combos)

2 The jump-in with lk can be considered as an instant overhead?

3 Is there any difference, in terms of range and damages, while making an ochio throw using the different punch buttons?

4 Aside his forward hk, what do you use as attack while you are walking towards your opponent?

[Thelo]

6 I've read in the Wiki that an eventual move doesn't affect the oicho storage. While playing I've got the feeling that I needed to restore oicho every time I missed the throw and obtained a simple crouched punch. How is it possible that the game keeps the oicho stored if even the throw is missed and a punch button activated?


If the opponent is too far the ochio move will not lead to a throw but to a simple cr. punch: after that the ochio has to be restored in order to be ready to achieve another throw attempt?
No, you can do the ochio motion, mash punch all day, and if the opponent gets close he'll be ochio'ed.

It's actually pretty handy when, say, Chun-Li is doing her MP -> walk -> MP -> walk -> MP -> walk -> throw annoyances - you can just store the ochio, hold down-back to block the hits and repeatedly hit MP while in block stun, and if you're lucky that'll either get the ochio at some point or interrupt her throw attempt with a crouch MP.

[mad possum]

I'm pretty sure only the Fierce (HP) Headbutt will work in combos. Your spending too much time worrying about obscure combos, that's not Honda's game. The basic Jump in Fierce, cr.Short, Fierce Headbutt does good damage and more importantly it knocks down (good when playing charcacters that try to keep Honda out). The rest of the time concentrate on setting up throws.


All the Ochios have same range (as far as I can tell), Fierce does more damage and does a lot more stun damage.


When walking towards an opponent I stick out st. jabs (stops lots of moves). Especially against another Honda. Cr. strong has good priority and stops lots of pokes (good against Guile's cr. forward kick) but it is slower.

[Thelo]

Okay, my question for today is for fighting Dictator.

I can deal with most of his tricks, except this one: I'm in the left corner, Dic does a psycho crusher against me, then he actually recovers behind me and immediately throws me.

I've tried to counter-ochio him a ton of times (when in the left corner, I do left~down~right+P) but it never seems to work. I guess the one-frame turnaround prevents me from properly ochioing since I start the motion facing right then end it facing left.

For now I just avoid getting cornered at all to avoid this trap, but maybe there's a better way to counter this?

[UltraDavid]

Well you can just regular throw, no fancy motions needed for that. Any throw into the corner to ochio loop! It's not a good idea for Dic to put himself in the corner against Honda like that, just too risky. You can also do buttslam if you're not confident in reversal throwing.

[studtrooper]

I find that a MK sumo splash does wonders in that situation. Just make sure to cancel out of your blockstun recovery (which can be tricky depending on whether a MP or HP PC was used).

Or if you feel daunting, a MP HHS should connect for 2-3 hits (usually because the Bison player is going for a throw instead of blocking). This is a bit difficult because depending on when you start rapid tapping MP, you could do the HHS in the wrong direction.

[UltraDavid]

Not really worth trying hands there, it has too many throwable startup frames.

[Thelo]

Not really worth trying hands there, it has too many throwable startup frames.
Yeah, that's the difficulty - I'm in blockstun the whole time up to Dic's throw, and it seems any move I try to do gets thrown, let alone the slaps or jumping. I thought I even tried reversal buttslamming but I might be wrong.

I'll try to counter-throw and see how it works.

[UltraDavid]

Reversal buttslam always beats all throws, so both that and reversal normal throw should do the trick. Both equal Dictator getting ochio looped.

[Ehonda]

Yes i prefer Mp Butt smash vs Dict. this is safe. True H.Hands can be counter thrown if he is very close. Like Davis Said to many start up frames. You could always do J Head butt to stop the psycho in the first place.

[JDD]

Here is a question I haven't seen answered:


Is there any benefit to using MP hands over FP hands?

As far as I can tell, the difference between the two is that FP hands does a lot more damage, but is a lot harder to execute. That said, would using FP hands be good to use, when you have a lot of time to concentrate and focus on simply mashing HP?

For example, a common follow up to an oicho is MP hands. but during an oicho, you have a ton of time to concentrate and focus on mashing HP, usually I can get FP hands to come out.

[Dasrik]

IIRC, all that HHS requires to be executed is that four punch buttons were previously hit in quick succession; they can be any punch buttons. The last one just has to be HP for the HP hands to come out.

[Khiempossible]

IIRC, all that HHS requires to be executed is that four punch buttons were previously hit in quick succession; they can be any punch buttons. The last one just has to be HP for the HP hands to come out.

you don't recall very correctly, cause that way of doing mash moves didn't exist until later (cvs2 is where people are actually familiar with it, but I'm not sure how it's done in A2/A3/mvc2 etc)

in ST you have to mash the one button and the rapidity you need to mash with must be fastest with the harder strength. In fact it's impossible to do s.FP kara-ed into FP HHS. I can't do it anyway. I can't do FP mash moves reliably at all.

doing cvs2 style doesn't work (though will in HD).

so back to the question, I'm pretty sure fierce HHS travels way further.

I'd be careful with the hands though. it's possible to actually cross people up with the hands. I don't play honda, but sometimes I'll have a honda try and meaty hands on me, then do the mp/hp hands too early and cross over my body with the forward momentum while I wake up with the back turned to me, hands going away from my body.

[mad possum]

Well it did exist before ST, you could do that in WW, CE, and HF. But your right, it doesn't work in ST.

[Dasrik]

Well it did exist before ST, you could do that in WW, CE, and HF. But your right, it doesn't work in ST.
Ah, I see. ._.

[Jude]

Unless you don't want to move forward that far, I think the FP Hands are superior in every way. You just won't be able to do them every time.

Besides doing more damage the hits are closer together too. I'm pretty sure that they hit on every other frame where as the MP ones hit every third frame and the LP are every fourth, or something like that. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Zangeif 360 people out of them after getting hit so the less time inbetween hits the better.

Speaking of FP Hands, let's talk about openings. What kind of stuff do you like to do at the beginning of a round?

[Dasrik]

I hold down-back visibly at the beginning of the round. Then, I walk forward. ^_^

Unless I know for a fact that they're going to jump in.

[ShinVega]

Unless you don't want to move forward that far, I think the FP Hands are superior in every way. You just won't be able to do them every time.

Besides doing more damage the hits are closer together too. I'm pretty sure that they hit on every other frame where as the MP ones hit every third frame and the LP are every fourth, or something like that. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Zangeif 360 people out of them after getting hit so the less time inbetween hits the better.


The HHS attack frames are back to back so there is no gap between them (for all strengths), the only way gief could SPD honda AFTER being initially hit by the HHS is by performing the SPD outside of honda's HHS range (specific to the attack at the given time, so it might have appeared to look like gief reversed it)

The start-up frames for the HHS (Hundred Hand Slap) goes as follows: 5, 8, 11 so for those who don't fully understand the HHS, if you were able to mash the desired strength button at light speed it would still take 11 frames for the HHS to come out (i.e. you really need to be able to mash fast enough to exit mash-throws after 1 hit, it's really not that difficult with a little practice).

There are 3 different sets of attack boxes and hit boxes for the HHS. The attack sequence for the HHS is mid, high, low (repeat). The HHS will have 6 attacks for jab and strong, but fierce has a set of 11 (note: the jab and fierce have the exact same amount of total frames from start to finish; with strong having slightly less). I would only recommend using fierce as each attack only lasts 1 frame <besides the initial mid attack having 2> [ST players should already account for the start up].

Damage is as follows: (1st hit)+(2nd hit)+(3rd hit)
Jab 15+15+14
Strong 16+16+15
Fierce 17+17+16

As for canceling the s.Fierce into Fierce HHS; I'm sure it's impossible since you cannot special or super cancel s.Fierce (unless I've totally misunderstood the YBH).

Hope this helps :wgrin:

[zaspacer]

I finally got ST E. Honda section up at streetfighterdojo.com.

The link is:
http://streetfighterdojo.com/superturbo/honda/hondamatches.html