wiki answers all questions, well 99% anyway

[jaminbenjamin]

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo

If you are sifting through threads and can't find an answer to your question, make sure you look at the wiki. It will be worth your time, whether you've been playing the game for one month or one decade, I promise.

[NKI]

This is very true. Also see:
http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/

Please check those two before posting a question, 'cause your question may have already been answered.

Also, please feel free to post any questions/comments about the Wiki in this thread.

(The Wiki is currently having some connection problems, but hopefully it will be back to normal soon.)

[leaveal]

been looking at the translated frame data. awesome page.

i have a question though: is blockstun and hitstun the same for all moves? if so, what are their frame values? (wiki is still down)

i was wondering why there aren't any frame advantage/disadvantage numbers and thought maybe the hitstun/blockstun values were constant and that people could figure frame + or - by themselves.

[Desk]

argh, what keeps happening to the wiki? It's never up when I want it :( Is there anotherway to access it? apart from that link I mean.

[felineki]

i have a question though: is blockstun and hitstun the same for all moves? if so, what are their frame values? (wiki is still down)

i was wondering why there aren't any frame advantage/disadvantage numbers and thought maybe the hitstun/blockstun values were constant and that people could figure frame + or - by themselves.
As far as I know, the difference between hitstun and blockstun for any given move is minimal (blockstun lasts 1 frame longer).

Hitstun/blockstun is constant, I believe. There are only a few different possible values, and every attack will fall into one of them. For ground attacks against standing opponents, the length of hitstun goes, fittingly enough, Light < Medium < Hard = non-knockdown Special. All midair normals cause the same amount of hitstun against a standing opponent, and it's equivalent to that of a standing Light attack. Crouching opponents hit by a midair normal will go into the same length of hitsun as they would if they were hit by a standing attack of the corresponding strength. So, for example, if you use a jumping Fierce on an opponent, they'll go into a much longer hitstun if they were crouching than if they were standing.

That's about all I know on the subject.

[NKI]

What felineki said is pretty accurate, but blockstun and hitstun are the same length, except for jumping attacks.

I was mistaken when I said blockstun was 1 frame longer.

And yeah, I wish the Wiki would get fixed...there's so much info on that page!
:bluu:

[The Fireboy]

Yeah, the wiki has been down for a while now (Or atleast when I click on it.) :tdown:

[KYO84]

Just picked up CCC2 and am wanting to learn ST but the wiki is down, anyone know when it will be back up? :sad:

[NKI]

I dunno, but I sure hope it's back soon. I put hemmallemma time into the Wiki...:sad:

[Anthracks]

I love the Wiki and all... but it seems like 75% of the stuff is blank (that I looked at, at least)...

[NKI]

Hrm...? What did you look at that was blank?

I just double checked, and I didn't see any blank pages...

[Anthracks]

Most of the Marvel vs Capcom 2, Ken's Third Strike, someone else from 3rd Strike, pretty much everyone from Soul Calibur III, and some others I can't remember. Others in Third Strike with no data are Oro, Gill, and Sean.

Oh yeah, BTW, Ryu's Third Strike charts have Alex's moves for the most part if not all.

My bad though... I just noticied this thread only applies to Super Turbo... I thought it was about the whole thing... but either way.

[Ouroborus]

is there a chart that tells who takes the most and who takes the least damage in the game?

i've heard sim takes the most damage in the game compared to everyone.

[NKI]

This sounds like a job for T.AKIBA!!

(E-mail sent.)

EDIT: He says it'll take time, but he'll look into it eventually.

[Ouroborus]

any word on it yet?

[NKI]

Nope...I think he forgot...:sad:

[xinster]

i <3 wiki

[CigarBoB]

I updated the Wiki with a sim vs Boxer breakdown.

Im going to do some n.ken stuff as well. Thank you NKI it is great.

[HP87]

The individual character sections in ST seems to be very empty. Were the stuff deleted or something?

[NKI]

No, it's just that it takes a whole lot of time to write it up.

The Chun Li section took me months, and it's not even finished...:sad:

[Pablo_the_Mex]

I would definately appreciate the Deejay and Gief sections being updated. Regardless, very good info that all sf players should read up on.

[Kuprin]

I'd love to see you keep going with the Chun stuff, NKI. I for one appreciate it a lot, you've done a hell of a job.

I'd love to see more people write character sections on the Wiki. If Guile doesn't have a section, I could jump in and halfass it, but I still consider myself a major scrub and couldn't cover a whole lot. Better than a blank section, but not much good.

[HP87]

Just wondering, since its not mentioned in the wiki, is the exact timing for the Akuma code known? I've searched the forums for over an hour using different keywords but couldn't find anything. From the CCC2 tutorial video, it's said to wait for 3 seconds at Ryu, T.Hawk, Guile, Cammy and Ryu each, after that pressing 3P and Start simultaneously or mashing them. However even though I've assigned 3P and Start button to one button on mame, I still couldn't seem to get it to work. o_O

[N-Trade]

Just wondering, since its not mentioned in the wiki, is the exact timing for the Akuma code known? I've searched the forums for over an hour using different keywords but couldn't find anything. From the CCC2 tutorial video, it's said to wait for 3 seconds at Ryu, T.Hawk, Guile, Cammy and Ryu each, after that pressing 3P and Start simultaneously or mashing them. However even though I've assigned 3P and Start button to one button on mame, I still couldn't seem to get it to work. o_O

It's Start then quickly press 3P not Start + 3P simultaneously. (You should pick Ryu's brown colour for a brief moment)

[xinster]

It's Start then quickly press 3P not Start + 3P simultaneously. (You should pick Ryu's brown colour for a brief moment)

does this work for Hyper sf too

[AFG*TeN]

does this work for Hyper sf too

If by Hyper you mean AE then yes.

[xinster]

picked him my first try. that was easy.

[HP87]

Well, I've got a quick question regarding reversals. Is there any data available that states within how many frames before going into the neutral state must the input for the move be completed? I can't find anything on this in the translated T.Akiba site.

[nohoho]

I think the whole "before" thing was a myth. (I used to subscribe to it and my understanding was that there was a 3 frame grace period but I've quit that idea.) NKI busts it in the "in the house" thread? Somewhere. Maybe. Anyway I can't find anything on Akiba's site...

re: the wiki
Y'all should try to convince A-Dhalsim and jchensor to put up some sim and cammy material. OR just get their permission to cut and paste existing stuff here on the forums? (I think cole posted some gems a long time ago in "in the house.") CapMaster's recent Vega related writing is pretty much wiki-ready, too.

Raisin's recent additions all look great.

[Raisin]

Y'all should try to convince A-Dhalsim and jchensor to put up some sim and cammy material. OR just get their permission to cut and paste existing stuff here on the forums? (I think cole posted some gems a long time ago in "in the house.") CapMaster's recent Vega related writing is pretty much wiki-ready, too.
Sounds good to me. I had the same idea of just getting permission to copy all that good stuff into the wiki while giving them credit. The idea's on my back burner for now.

Raisin's recent additions all look great.
Thanks! I just finished a real-life project, so I should have a little more time to go finish up some of the things I had in mind.

I do have one problem right now. I recently was trying to create redirects for the characters in the wiki (for example, I want typing "st ryu" into the search box to take you to Ryu's ST section), but I ran into a really obscure, technical problem with the wiki. Now my problem is that I can't fix it properly without administrator powers, which of course I don't have. I still don't know who to talk to about this sort of thing, and having fired off a couple PM's to the higher-ups hasn't gotten me any responses. I feel bad about bugging these busy people out of nowhere anyway.

If anyone has admin powers to simply delete a few of my erroneously-created pages or knows someone who does, please contact me!

[jchensor]

If anyone wants to copy/paste anything I've written in the Cammy thread into the Wiki, I have absolutely no problem with it.

If there are any requests for any particular information, I'll provide what I can.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[Raisin]

If anyone wants to copy/paste anything I've written in the Cammy thread into the Wiki, I have absolutely no problem with it.
Cool beans, I'll get to that as time permits. Thanks for helping everybody out! :tup: Do you have a preference as to how you'd like to be credited? I can attribute your stuff to "James Chen," "jchensor," a link to a wiki user account like [[jchensor]], or whatever you like.

[NKI]

http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/Akuma_ST.jpg

To pick Akuma:
1) Star the cursor on Ryu or Ken and wait 1 second.
2) Move the cursor to Hawk, then Guile, then Cammy, then back to Ryu, waiting 1 second on each character.
3) Press start, and then within 0.3 seconds, press all three punches at the same time.

Sorry I suck and haven't been around lately. I'll update the wiki with this info when I can. (Unless someone else has time to do it...?)

[laugh]

I've picked up Bison (Dictator) lately, and I noticed there wasn't any info about him in the wiki besides Raisin's awesome color charts. I think I know what I'll be doing today.

I didn't know you could start from Ken and still get Akuma. The ST Akuma code is really forgiving, it seems. After you've moved through all the characters you need to stay for a second, you can move to any character and press start+PPP to get akuma. You don't have to select from Ryu's picture.

[Raisin]

I'll update the wiki with [the Akuma code] when I can. (Unless someone else has time to do it...?)
Done and done, both on the main page next to the codes about picking old versions of the characters and on the character-specific Akuma page. I don't know why I didn't think to do it earlier.

The ST Akuma code is really forgiving, it seems. After you've moved through all the characters you need to stay for a second, you can move to any character and press start+PPP to get akuma.
You can finish the code on any character? I only seem to be able to do it when ending on Ken or Ryu. I tried it on both the World and the US version. I wonder what I'm I doing wrong.

Also nitpicking, but I'm curious where you guys got the 1 second figure from. It seems like I have to wait longer than that to make it work.

I think I know what I'll be doing today. [editing the Bison wiki]
That would be awesomesauce if you feel like tinkering with it. :tup:

P.S. Friend's quote: "Purple Bison equals not intimidating." Hahaha. We also call him Barney when he uses that color scheme. (You know, the goofy, purple dinosaur from the USA kids' show.)

[felineki]

Heh, that purple/turquoise color scheme for Bison is pretty crazy, even for SSF2/T, which had some pretty gaudy colors compared to the later games (I actually kinda like them, though. Orange/blue Ryu FTW!). His skin is REALLY pale in that palette too, making it look even weirder.

[jchensor]

laugh is correct. You can wait on Ryu at the end, then move to ANY character you want, and finish the code and still get Bison.

Also, do you really have to hit the 3 punches within .3 seconds of hitting Start. All you really need to do is hold Start down, then hit the three punches. I swear I've done it almost a full second after hitting Start and holding it down. That's pushing your available time, but I don't think it has to be that quick.

And Raisin, feel free to list me as jchensor. I'm pretty sure I still have my jchensor wiki account, so if you wanna link to it, feel free. Are there profile pages or something? ^_^ I'm not even sure.

And the purple Bison always looked a little more green than turquoise to me. Which is why I used to call him Devastator Bison. 'Cause he looked like an inverted Constructicon to me.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[Raisin]

/off-topic

Haha, kinda funny to see that I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of the color setups. Some of my other names are:

Ryu with black gi, yellow headband (Jab) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Ryu_%28ST%29#New_Ryu_Colors) = "The Wasp" (y'know, like yellow and black)
Ryu with ocean-blue gi, red headband (Forward) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Ryu_%28ST%29#New_Ryu_Colors) = "Captain America"
Dic in gray and steel (Start) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/M._Bison_%28ST%29#New_Dictator_Colors) = "The Iron Fist"
Dic in all-beige getup (Hold) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/M._Bison_%28ST%29#New_Dictator_Colors) = "Dipped In Bronze" :lol: (Okay, I thought it was funny...)
Blanka in all green (Roundhouse) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Blanka_%28ST%29#New_Blanka_Colors) = "The Goblin"
Blanka with orange skin, deep green hair (Forward) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Blanka_%28ST%29#New_Blanka_Colors) = "Turnip" (looks a little like something dug up from the ground)
Dhalsim with bleached-white skin (Hold) (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Dhalsim_%28ST%29#New_Dhalsim_Colors) = "Skeleton," or alternatively, "Bones Malone"

Et cetera. Sometimes we pick the color of a well-known player just for a cheap laugh. (Choose brown Ryu: "Ohhh, man, watch out, here comes Daigo...") Bonus points if you then play in their style, like picking pale "Aniken" yellow and doing a bunch of ground DP's.

I actually kinda like orange Ryu too, felineki, but apparently we're just about the only ones, because I almost never see him used. Most of the gaudy color schemes, though, sheesh...

Someone already made the SRK username Limeken. :rofl:
And yeah, purple Dictator = more than meets the eye.

[nohoho]

Et cetera. Sometimes we pick the color of a well-known player just for a cheap laugh. (Choose brown Ryu: "Ohhh, man, watch out, here comes Daigo...") Bonus points if you then play in their style, like picking pale "Aniken" yellow and doing a bunch of ground DP's.
Grey and red Blanka -> round start walk in bite.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/nohoho/realbeast.png

[Raisin]

/on-topic

laugh is correct. You can wait on Ryu at the end, then move to ANY character you want, and finish the code and still get Bison... Also, do you really have to hit the 3 punches within .3 seconds of hitting Start....I don't think it has to be that quick.
Oh, I get it now, you have to go back to Ryu/Ken a 2nd time before optionally moving to someone else. (I was trying to just go straight from Cammy.) Is there any practical reason to do that extra step? To choose a specific backup character in case you get the code wrong or something? :confused:

Hmm, you're right about being able to do it a little slower. I didn't know that. I'm a lot more consistent at inputting it if I do it right after, though. It doesn't seem to matter if you hold start or release it, either.

I'm pretty sure I still have my jchensor wiki account, so if you wanna link to it, feel free. Are there profile pages or something?
Okay, I put your stuff in the Match-Up Strategies section of the Cammy wiki (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Cammy_%28ST%29#Match-Up_Strategies). The info is sifted from a few different posts, and I tried to organize it semi-logically, but let me know if you have a problem with anything. I credited the wiki account jchensor. Also, I wasn't quite sure how to attribute it. I put: --jchensor, added with permission by Raisin (date), because I think I'm supposed to sign it as the one who edited the wiki. But I'm conscious of my name visible next to yours, and I just don't want it to seem like I'm trying to take credit or steal the spotlight or anything. So uh, yeah. :sweat: Let me know if you want me to remove my name or something.

As for profile pages, it depends what you mean. It's possible that in the future there may be wiki pages on famous players and stuff, although I don't know of any yet. The other thing is that everyone with an account gets their own user page, and this user page can be visible in various places, like after people sign edited wiki stuff. I linked to your user page like usual, even though it's empty. Some people like to write a little bit about themselves or whatever. If you want a user page example, ask yourself, Is NKI a dork? (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/User:NKI)

[jchensor]

lol!

We have a ton of random nicknames for the different colors. ^_^ I could go on and on forever about them.

And yeah, the only reason you would do that alternate Akuma code trick thing is if you mess up, you get a character you like as opposed to always being stuck with Ryu or Ken.

And no worries about the Cammy stuff. Feel free to put your name there 'cause it's probably more work for me to put it on the Wiki than to write it up in the first place. ^_^ You're doing me a huge favor by putting all that stuff in there for me!

So since I don't have a real profile page, don't worry about linking my name to anything, unless you wanna link to my blog that I barely update these days. :-p

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[BKB]

Orange Ryu is Fred Flinstone Ryu.... except he wears the tie as a headband.

[NKI]

Is NKI a dork? (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/User:NKI)Yes. Huge dork.

[Raisin]

Grey and red Blanka -> round start walk in bite.
Hah, my friend was just commenting the other day about the absurd number of walk-in grabs Komoda is able to get. I don't really get how he does it.

Orange Ryu is Fred Flinstone Ryu.... except he wears the tie as a headband.
Hahaha. :rofl:

...Yes. Huge dork.
Sorry, just kidding. :wgrin:

And no worries about the Cammy stuff. Feel free to put your name there 'cause it's probably more work for me to put it on the Wiki than to write it up in the first place. ^_^ You're doing me a huge favor by putting all that stuff in there for me!

So since I don't have a real profile page, don't worry about linking my name to anything, unless you wanna link to my blog that I barely update these days. :-p
Uhh, you're kidding about it being more work for me than for you, right? 'Cause I admit that it took tons of time and skill to master the 2-hit combo of Copy and Paste. :rolleyes: I changed my mind and took my name off the stuff ("added by Raisin"), though. There's no real reason for it to be there anyway, and it's just kinda white noise to the reader.

The blog link is a good idea, so I put a link to it in a 3-sentence profile page.

[zass]

Some nicknames I remember:

Dic in all beige (Hold): Colonel Mustard. As in clue: "It was Colonel Mustard, on Blanka's stage, with the Scissor Kick".
Guile in pink (Short): Street Fighter 2: Alternative Edition
Boxer with green gloves (fierce): Capers! (This friend of mine would just randomly scream CAPERS when selecting him)
Yellow Chun (forward): Egg, or Canary

[Raisin]

is there a chart that tells who takes the most and who takes the least damage in the game?
I'm necro'ing this, because I've been wondering the same thing myself. It always felt to me in ST that, compared to Ryu, Blanka could take about 5% more damage before getting KO'd and Zangief could take at least 20% more damage than Ryu. So I set out to test it.

Boring test details: The way I tested this was by repeating attacks, counting the number needed to KO, and repeating many times to iron out the deviation due to random damage amounts. In order to to prevent granularity in the figures, I used a very weak attack (Cammy's c.jab) to hit many times per test. In a full test, I would do even more than 10 trials each and would also test with various other attacks to control anything weird going on with the interaction of any particular attack plus damage scaling.

I also tried to control any other variables; for example, I know that throws do more damage if you're losing in the 2nd round, and I wanted to make sure that didn't apply to random attack damage too. So I did all the trials with player 1 doing all the damage in the first round with no combos and no dizzies.

Trials counting the number of Cammy c.jab hits to KO versus...
*Ryu: 40.7 in 10 trials -- 40, 39, 40, 39, 43 ... 42, 42, 41, 42, 39
*Blanka: 42.9 in 10 trials -- 42, 44, 43, 41, 43 ... 43, 44, 43, 42, 44
*Zangief: 51.3 in 10 trials -- 52, 53, 52, 51, 53 ... 50, 51, 49, 51, 51

End result: Using Ryu as the benchmark, Blanka came out about 5% ahead and Zangief could soak 26% more damage, confirming my guesses rather well and giving me some confidence in the validity of my test.

I plan on doing a full-blown examination of all the characters' ability to take damage if people are interested in seeing it and I feel confident enough in my ability to test correctly. Please let me know if you think there's something wrong with my methods or think there's an easier or better way.

[nohoho]

Hah, my friend was just commenting the other day about the absurd number of walk-in grabs Komoda is able to get. I don't really get how he does it.
On the X-Mania 7 DVD Otochun and Gian discuss a phenomenon called "Komoda Magic." They were commenting specifically on his batshit insane round-start jump ins but it's all the same stuff.

When you think about it in terms of conditioning... what kind of horrors has Komoda inflicted on these people in the past that make them hesitate so much as the round begins? Scary.

[Stamina differences]
Good stuff! Make sure that you...
So I did all the trials with player 1 doing all the damage in the first round with no combos and no dizzies.
Way ahead of me. Heh. Even though ST doesn't have a modern combo damage scaling system it does have some kind of weirdness there. And Cammy can probably do more consecutive jabs against some characters than others?

[Grits'N'Gravy]

So,

I'd like to start working on the M Bison section of the wiki, but I'm wondering if I can repost some of the stuff on the newsgroup and edit it, try to make things flow more smoothly and change shit to what we know now. I probably won't say "dictator" anywhere cause it's not a habit for me, so if anyone gets caught up on that... well, you're there to learn his matches, right?

My knowledge base on some matchups is pretty good, but might only apply to my style. I'd like to get some of what Professor Jones and others think besides the old newsgroup stuff as well.

I hope I can clear this w/ Sirlin, S-Kill whomever... James, would you know if this would be cool? I'm not sure how to even contact the other guys who posted some good shit on there... but I'd like to give credit where it's due. Maybe I could just link it in the various sections to the google groups.

Oh and for goofy character names:

Black Bison: Nazi Bison
Brown Bison: Big turd
Light Blue Bison: My color, don't pick it. =)

[jchensor]

As long as you credited them, I cannot see Seth or Dave caring at alol if you reposted some of their stuff. But if they hunt you down with firey rage, I don't know you. ^_^

I had some weird nicknames. Like Hyper Bison is Love Boat Bison. The hold down 2-seconds Bison is Sepia Tone Bison. Short Blanka (komoda's color, apparently) is Magnet Blanka. The one with the pink hair was Treasure Troll Blanka. The yellow Ken was Urine Ken (I was in high school when I made that one up, it was funny back then). The brown Ryu we called "Hawk Ryu." Hold 2-seconds Dhalsim was Statue Dhalsim. Hyper Dhalsim was Queequeg Dhalsim (woa, classic literature references in Street Fighter!). Oh yeah, green Ryu with Red Bandana was Christmas Ryu. And then there were the sports guys. The new Jab ST Ryu was Indiana Pacers Ryu, for example. But Sports ones are too easy. ^_^

Anyhow, we should create a new thread for nicknames, if we wanna keep this going any farther. ^_^ I don't wanna hijack this thread.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[NKI]

Raisin - That's awesome! I think your method of testing is just fine. You may want to always test on the same stage as well, but it's prolly not necessary.

Grits'N'Gravy - I think the best method would be to use all their posts as your source/reference, and then kind of rewrite them all together into a single coherent page. (Please don't just copy and paste them all together, because that would not flow well and would be unnecessarily hard to follow.)

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Raisin - That's awesome! I think your method of testing is just fine. You may want to always test on the same stage as well, but it's prolly not necessary.

Grits'N'Gravy - I think the best method would be to use all their posts as your source/reference, and then kind of rewrite them all together into a single coherent page. (Please don't just copy and paste them all together, because that would not flow well and would be unnecessarily hard to follow.)

Of course, that's what I was planning to do. I met Sirlin and Seth at Evo East, Seth even used Knuck's stick (and got a game loss because of the start buttons, lol) bot really nice, humble guys. I'm just hoping that they wouldn't get mad, I'll try to get at them about it. Is there anybody else really knowledgeable on that matchup back on agsf2? The only guys I saw post were Sirlin, S-kill and Stiltman (he was always negative about bison) and I think the Cannon's posted about him too... any other players names would be appreciated.

Too bad I couldn't find Sirlin to ask about the Chun match that day...

Hopefully my work will be more help than hindrance, I plan to really get things started on the Wiki soon, and then work on it gradually throghout summertime.

NKI and James, good luck at Evo East if you guys play it again. I really wanted to get some matches in with you, but my setup was on a bad TV and I didn't feel like waiting in a huge line at Phil's. Got some great games in w/ Mike Creque and others though, I really wish I could go this year. Think you'll be at NEC?

[NKI]

Won't be at NEC, but I just bought my ticket to Evo East. :tup:

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Good luck, maybe you could help out some with the Bison vs Chunsection, unless you have already posted some stuff up?

Basically I'm thinking it's impossible if I get flopkicked without a stock to win. The only Chun I beat for a match didn't have the chance to flopkick me before I tick threw her skank ass... so that seems like the only way to get it done w/ Bison.

[Don Calzone]

There is one question I've been going nuts about for the last two weeks. I know that it has been answered before, but I can't find and answer of it that really satisfy me - all the ones I see is really confusing. So anyway, it's about game speed. What is the official game speed used on jap arcades and tourneys?

Because there only is speed 1,2 and 3 in Japan it gets confusing trying to choose speed on the console versionen, cause they have 1,2,3 and 4. Now, what I've always thought is that jap speed 3 is the one used in japan (of course) and the console speed 4 would be the equal to jap 3. But recently I've seen som vids from jap, showing top players play in speed 2; now what's up with that?

Does it differ if you play AE or ST?

The answer should get posted in the wiki.
Thanks for helping at stupid swede out dudes.

[Fran3S]

always speed 3

[NKI]

Good luck, maybe you could help out some with the Bison vs Chunsection, unless you have already posted some stuff up?I'm only familiar with that match from Chun's perspective, but I'll see if I can add some stuff when I get some time.

Basically I'm thinking it's impossible if I get flopkicked without a stock to win.Well, not really. Against Dic, Chun can not cross-up with D/F+RH, so there's no guessing game. You always block down/back. After that, if she goes for a throw, you should try to reversal throw. Even if you don't get it, you'll probably get a tech hit.

I'd suggest checking out some matches of Yuu Vega or Taira if you haven't already.

What is the official game speed used on jap arcades and tourneys?There is no absolute standard, but the most commonly used speed is Turbo 3.

Does it differ if you play AE or ST? Not sure, but I would assume it's the same in both.

[nohoho]

Don -

In the US the standard is Free Select 3. (the fastest speed)

In Japan it's Fixed Turbo 3. (the second highest speed)

SBO is going to use Fixed (HSF) Turbo 2. This might explain why you've seen this speed recently.

If you wanted to practice for Evo using a Japanese rom on mame you'd want to open up the system config and set it to Turbo 4. If we're talking about the other direction -- if you are playing on CCC2 and you want to play Japanese arcade style -- you'd want fixed turbo 2. Maybe not. I'm getting mixed up. heh

Trivia: at some point in the past -- before X-Mania I -- turbo 4 was more popular in Japan, but they switched to 3.

EDIT:
Here's what T.Akiba says about game speeds. He hedges a little, so I don't think he's studied this thoroughly.
Dash = Asian CE
Turbo = Asian HF
H = HSF (AE)

WW = Dash = Super < H1 < X1 < X2 < H2 < Turbo < X3 < X4 < H3 < H4

[Don Calzone]

Thanks alot for the answer nohoho :)
I think I got my horses straight now.

[Raisin]

*Warning: Super long post ahead. I've tried to summarize the most important stuff at the front.*

I finished my look into the stamina differences between the characters. I decided to go ahead and do all the trials on the background stage after all, even though I don't see why it should matter. I tried my best to get the figures as accurately as possible, and here's my interpretation of the results. The characters can be grouped roughly into three tiers. The differences between characters within the same tier rate from extremely minute to nonexistent, and I noticed no differences between new and old versions.

The lightweights: Akuma, Cammy, Chun Li, Claw, DeeJay, Dhalsim, FeiLong, Guile, Ken, Ryu
These characters have the least stamina.

The heavyweights: Blanka, Boxer, Dictator, E.Honda, Sagat, T.Hawk
These characters have a very small but tangible edge in stamina. Compared to the lightweights, they can take an average of around 3% more damage before getting knocked out. EDIT: I later found the figure to be closer to 8% and realized it doesn't apply to certain moves, like most throws.

The superheavyweight: Zangief
This character has a very large advantage in stamina which allows him to take an average of about 23% more damage than the lightweights before getting knocked out. EDIT: This too doesn't apply to those certain moves that do the same damage to all characters.

I recommend skipping the rest of this post unless you enjoy boredom.
___________________________________________

EDIT: This Q&A section isn't really applicable, since I believe the 3% figure to be an inaccurate artifact of the jab test I used -- see future posts. Leaving it here for reference.

Q: Your numbers look a little different than in your first glance. For example, you said you thought Blanka had about 5% more stamina than Ryu, and now I see 3%. What gives?

A: There's 2 reasons for why the figures shifted a bit. The first is that I didn't do too many trials in the sample, and Ryu ended up testing just a bit wimpier than he usually is, while Blanka came out a hair more buff in that limited sample size. That's why I did a ton more trials in the actual test. The second reason is that the 3% figure is a comparison of the entire heavyweight group to the entire lightweight group, not just Blanka to Ryu. (Example: since Ryu came out near the very bottom of the lightweights, his getting lumped in with Chun Li, Claw, etc. pulled him up a bit.)
___________________________________________

Test #1, and the main test, was the Cammy c.jab test where a trial consisted of counting the number of hits required to knock out. These were done such that all trials were done on the same stage and in the first round with player 1 doing all of the damage and no combos or dizzies. A few characters ended up getting more trials than others for reasons I won't bore you with. Results:

40.90 -- DeeJay (60 trials)
41.08 -- Guile (50 trials)
41.16 -- Ryu (50 trials)
41.24 -- Cammy (50 trials)
41.28 -- Akuma (50 trials)
41.40 -- Claw (50 trials)
41.42 -- Dhalsim (50 trials)
41.42 -- Ken (50 trials)
41.62 -- FeiLong (50 trials)
41.72 -- Chun Li (50 trials)
..........
42.48 -- Dic (100 trials)
42.50 -- T.Hawk (100 trials)
42.56 -- Blanka (50 trials)
42.71 -- Sagat (70 trials)
42.76 -- E.Honda (50 trials)
42.87 -- Boxer (100 trials)
..........
50.90 -- Zangief (50 trials)

You can easily see the sizable gap between Chun Li and Dic and the huge gap between Boxer and Zangief. After agonizing a bit over how to interpret the data, I thought just to make the tier cuts there and be done with it. In this way, I decided in the end that I'd rather be more vague and completely certain of what I'm claiming.

The alternative was to try to split hairs and get more speculative by doing something like giving each character their own spot in the list, such as attempting to claim Chun Li has 1.4% more stamina than Ryu, which I'm not confident of. Don't get me wrong, as I think she probably does have a tiny bit more, but besides being a virtually insignificant difference anyway, I didn't really feel like doing ~300 more trials per character to try to mash out the exact figure.

If you want to take up a different interpretation of the data, feel free, and I'd be interested in hearing it.
___________________________________________

Test #2 was the sweep test. I know I wanted to do something completely different, so I repeated Cammy's c.RH 6 times per trial and then observed the amount of stamina left (measured in pixels), if any. Trials were controlled in the same way as test #1, and I "only" did 20 per character for this one. I wasn't looking for super exact stats here, just a general reinforcement of the above.

Ryu -- 65% KO, 0.71 avg. in non-KO's
Dhalsim -- 55% KO, 0.56 avg. in non-KO's
Guile -- 50% KO, 0.40 avg. in non-KO's
Ken -- 50% KO, 0.9 avg. in non-KO's
Chun Li -- 50% KO, 1.1 avg. in non-KO's
Claw -- 45% KO, 0.45 avg. in non-KO's
Cammy -- 45% KO, 0.55 avg. in non-KO's
FeiLong -- 40% KO, 0.42 avg. in non-KO's
DeeJay -- 40% KO, 1.08 avg. in non-KO's
Akuma -- 30% KO, 0.50 avg. in non-KO's
..........
Sagat -- 3.95 avg
E.Honda -- 4.20 avg.
T.Hawk -- 4.35 avg.
Blanka -- 4.45 avg.
Dictator -- 4.75 avg.
Boxer -- 4.85 avg.
..........
Zangief -- 17.20 avg

I think the results mirrored the first test as closely as could be expected with only 20 trials. The lightweights all suffered knockouts, the heavyweights showed up clearly in their own grouping, and Zangief once again blew the rest of the field away.

This test was probably pretty poorly-designed with regards to testing the order of the lightweights within their own tier. The reason is that KO's kind of muddied the data, with each KO being weighted equally. In fact, some of the KO's were surely "worse" than the others (would've ended up at more negative stamina), but damage received past the KO point was actually truncated. So the figures for average stamina remaining on the lightweight subgroup is probably inaccurate. Oh well, whatever.
___________________________________________

If anyone wants the data from the individual trials, I will provide it. I'm just leaving it out for now, 'cause it's row after row after row of well over 1,000 trials' worth of figures that would only serve to make most people's eyes glaze over.
___________________________________________

SRK Street Fighter analysis: Serious Business.™ :tup:

[nohoho]

Nice one, Raisin! It takes a great deal of stamina to dance with Gorbachev!

Didn't common wisdom hold that Akuma had a damage handicap in ST? My memory is a little hazy (that didn't start until SFA?) but you've busted a myth if so.

[NKI]

Very very nice. :tup:

[Raisin]

Uhh, well, it seems my stamina examination was incomplete. I'm finding some exceptions to the figures and it's making me feel pretty dumb, because some of them are pretty obvious. Still, some of this is looking kinda weird...

Issue #1 -- Throws: The damage for most throws seems to be ignoring character stamina completely. So whether Ryu throws Guile 4 times or Zangief 4 times, their remaining stamina is going to be the same.

The funny thing is that this doesn't seem to be consistently-applied. Like, T.Hawk's Cyclone (360) command grab ignores stamina differences (Ryu takes the same damage as Zangief), but Zangief's SPD doesn't (Ryu takes much more damage than Zangief). :confused:

Issue #2 -- Fireball Test: Another random thing I came across that doesn't add up was testing the effect of throwing blue fireballs with Ryu. Hitting T.Hawk with 10 fireballs will just about empty his stamina bar but not KO him. Zangief can take 11 fireballs before he's virtually empty, an improvement over T.Hawk of only 10%, far less than expected.

Is there a separate stamina factor for special moves that's different from normal moves or something? I have no explanation yet.

I'll look into these things as time permits.

[nohoho]

Maybe stamina differences could be exacerbated or masked by the logarithmic nature of the life bars?

http://nki.combovideos.com/data.html
(scroll down to damage scaling)

If fireball times n gets one character down to 30 health and a different character to 31 health, after fireball times (n+1) the first character wil have a health lead?

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Well, not really. Against Dic, Chun can not cross-up with D/F+RH, so there's no guessing game. You always block down/back. After that, if she goes for a throw, you should try to reversal throw. Even if you don't get it, you'll probably get a tech hit.


I actually didn't know it couldn't cross up. I've never played the match from Chun's side, but flopkick ticks was what took me out of Evo East, among other tricks she's got. Do you know the matchup table data for that? (Is there a matchup chart, or tier list that includes OG versions?)

I do go for the counter throw, but I usually do get thrown myself in that situation, teching doesn't really help much for me cause she can get in there and set it up so easily.

Edit: I added to the M Bison wiki here: http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/M._Bison_%28ST%29#Overview I did write it pretty late so it might be crap. I wrote some stuff about my general style which might not seem effective or work for anybody but me... I really don't know. For me, not to brag... my style works great. When I started playing Bison, I never really watched videos, I took some of the concepts from Jeff Schaefer and Sirlin's styles of play and kind of bended it with what I found was effective.

I'm hoping the other bison players will add their style/tips to it and maybe help improve mine.
Sorry, I ddin't format anything yet, I'll get around to that later most likely... information=better than flashiness imo.

[fatboy]

SRK Street Fighter analysis: Serious Business.™ :tup:

Dude that must have taken forever! Thanks. The only thing I can do it add rep. + rep for you!

[Raisin]

Maybe stamina differences could be exacerbated or masked by the logarithmic nature of the life bars?
Hmm, I really don't know, but it's possible... What I don't understand is that when I've tested stamina with other moves, like in another example I'll show in a minute, I usually get something like heavyweights +7-8% and Zangief +20-24% whether damage scaling is a factor in the equation (tests done to knockout) or not (tests done only up to the point before damage starts to scale).

It's only in the Cammy c.jab test where the heavyweights registered a bit lower at 3%. If there was an easy explanation owing to damage scaling, I'd have expected Zangief to score lower too, but he's right up in the low twenties like usual, so he was unaffected. So I still haven't figured out why this happened on only the jab test... Maybe it was some funny interaction between the damage scaling, the heavyweight group, that particular move, and the game rounding the damage figures unfavorably or something.

I see now why Zangief only came in a little over 10% durable than T.Hawk in that fireball test -- because that's pretty much how it actually is for most moves. It was the weirdness of the c.jab test that painted the heayvweights in a slightly unfavorable light and made me underrate them.

Dude that must have taken forever!
Yeah, heh, I honestly don't care if I ever see another crouching jab as long as I live. :bgrin:

[Raisin]

Really sorry for cluttering up the thread with this topic, but I want my look into this to be as complete and accurate as possible. Hopefully this is my last post on this. Some new observations:

1. Certain moves ignore stamina, meaning they'll do the same damage to Ryu as to Zangief. These include most throws and all grabs. The only exceptions are Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360 and 720, and T.Hawk's 720.

EDIT: Yarrr, mateys, this paragraph be amiss owin' to lack of sufficient trials. Ignore it. The funny thing for these exceptions is that while stamina still matters for them, it matters less than it usually does. For example, Zangief can usually take ~22% more damage than the lightweights from most moves, but his stamina edge on these exceptions is something like (ballpark figure) ~15%. Like we needed any more asterisks and footnotes at this point. :confused:

2. It's not possible to say that character X will always take Y% more damage because of the presence of these stamina-ignoring moves and the question of how often they get used in any particular match. (The more Ryu throws, the less his opponent's stamina difference matters.) So things are a little fuzzier, and the best I know to do is to keep the characters lumped into rough stamina tiers and remain more general.

3. Slightly revised math figures from after having studied a few more move examples would probably be something like this. Again, the following are for typical, non-stamina-ignoring moves:

Lightweight group = base
Heavyweight advantage over lightweight = ~8% more durable (up from 3% like I thought before)
Superheavyweight advantage over lightweight = ~22% more durable
Superheavyweight advantage over heavyweight = ~13% more durable
___________________________________________

Here's another test I did with hits from Ken's short hurricane kick. I wanted to use a special move for this one just to cover the bases. The figures represent the average amount of energy lost (in pixels) per hit, so low numbers are better for this one -- taking less damage is good. For this test, all samples were collected without damage scaling being a factor.

Lightweights:
11.325: Claw (40 samples)
11.275: Guile (40 samples)
11.225: Dhalsim (40 samples)
11.225: Ryu (40 samples)
11.125: Ken (40 samples)
11.100: Chun Li (40 samples)
11.100: FeiLong (40 samples)
11.075: DeeJay (40 samples)
11.050: Akuma (40 samples)
11.025: Cammy (40 samples)

Heavyweights:
10.450: E.Honda (40 samples)
10.325: T.Hawk (40 samples)
10.275: Dictator (40 samples)
10.225: Boxer (40 samples)
10.200: Sagat (40 samples)
10.175: Blanka (40 samples)

Superheavyweight:
09.100: Zangief (40 samples)

Lightweight average = 11.17
Heavyweight average = 10.28
Superheavyweight average = 9.10

Heavyweight advantage over lightweight = 8.7% more durable
Superheavyweight advantage over lightweight = 22.7% more durable
Superheavyweight advantage over heavyweight = 13.0% more durable

All the usual suspects lined up right about where you'd expect them to be.

[Goryus]

Good stuff, Raisin.

Your hard work has inspired me to start looking into this, as well. One thing I'd noticed a long time ago is that, when blocked, Akuma's air fireball does virtually no damage. Waaaay less than the normal chip damage you get from a regular fireball. I also happened to notice that this particular move didn't seem to be doing less damage when the enemy's health was low, like everything else does. I was pretty perplexed by this, and decided it would be a good place to start. One warning: I tested this using ST characters in HSF2: AE. I don't think this will throw off the results, but it's possible, so take them with a grain of salt.

First off, the damage this move does when blocked is pathetic. It took exactly 132 blocked air fireballs to kill Ryu. The first time, at least. Here are my results from the Ryu trials:

Ryu:
Trial 1 - 132 Air Fireballs
Trial 2 - 134 Air Fireballs
Trial 3 - 129 Air Fireballs
Trial 4 - 129 Air Fireballs
Trial 5 - 129 Air Fireballs
Trial 6 - 131 Air Fireballs

So, even with pathetically low numbers, random damage is still exerting a significant effect. Most of the time exactly 1 pixel of health was coming off, but occasionally he was losing 2 pixels. The random variation appears to be based on how many 2 pixel losses he incurred.

Not to be discouraged, I decided to try Gief, and see how it differs. Here are the results:

Gief:
Trial 1 - 143 Air Fireballs
Trial 2 - 140 Air Fireballs
Trial 3 - 141 Air Fireballs
Trial 4 - 140 Air Fireballs

The interesting part is that Zangief was losing 1 pixel of health/attack, with the occasional 2 pixels thrown in, just like Ryu had been. Their health bars are the same length on the screen, so why is it taking 8% more Air Fireballs to kill Zangief? The answer is obvious - Zangief is getting hit for 2 pixels less often than Ryu was. Still, why is it only taking 8% more FBs to kill Zangief?

According to your data, Zangief has the highest defense. As far as I can tell, a blocked Air FB does the least damage of any move in the game. So this particular combination should represent the least amount of damage possible to do. That said, Zangief never failed to lose at least 1 pixel from his health bar after blocking an air FB, after blocking nearly 600 of them. Since this is the theoretical minimum, we can say that it is impossible for a move to do less than 1 pixel of damage. Hence, the maximum number of times it should be possible to hit someone is equal to 1 plus the number of dots that constitute their health bar (since they are still alive with none remaining).

I counted up dots and came up with 143 in a health bar. I'm not 100% positive of that number, as counting was pretty difficult, even on a shiny new high-res Bravia screen. But it's definitely very, very close to that. The number is interesting because it is very close to the number of hits it took to kill 'gief in my trials above. This supports my earlier assertion that it was almost always taking away exactly 1 pixel.

I'm curious about the spread you found in your results. When you say 9.1 average pixels for 'gief, does that mean that he usually lost 9 pixels, with the occasionally 10 thrown in? Or was the spread greater? Also, have you ever noticed any case where the variance in damage was greater than 1 pixel (not counting damage scaling when health is low)? I have an idea about what may be going on here, but it only pans out if the random factor in damage is never more than a 1 dot change.

Edit: Nevermind, just tested with Ryu's cr.short on DJ, 40 trials -> damage was anywhere from 3-6 pixels, with the median at 4.

[fatboy]

Snip....everything

So, to make sure I understand what your are saying here... I want to sum them up in a few simple rules...

1) Damage Classes are:

Russian Power: Zanggief ~ 122%
Big Guys: Blanka, Honda, Hawk, Dictator, Boxer, Sagat~ 108%
Everybody else -100% (base)


2) Generally speaking, every character dies from the same number of throws/ grabs regardless class.

2b) Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360, 720, and last hit of the 360-K, and T.Hawk's 720 adhere to the damage class rules.

-----------------

Thank you Rasin!!

[Raisin]

(Warning: long post again... feel free to skip if uninterested)

[Akuma air fireball test]
You're absolutely right that Akuma's blocked air fireballs can give results that don't line up with the usual stamina figures. Oh, and your counting was very good -- the energy bar is actually 144 pixels wide.

One reason it's not the same as normal is that the health bars don't hold fractional numbers, and damage can never be less than 1, so the number-rounding throws things off considerably. Here's an easy example: suppose we're using the jab version of Akuma's air fireball, which does the least chip damage, and Ryu blocks it while he's under 50% damage scaling (with 15 health). The "true damage" that he would be taking would be about half a pixel, but it has to be rounded up to 1. Now suppose that Zangief has 50% damage scaling and blocks the same move. He also is forced to take 1 pixel of damage, and his stamina advantage isn't able to show here, because he's getting hosed by the way the number-rounding works.

It's my belief that something similar happens outside of damage scaling as well. Say it breaks down something like this. (The following is not a real graph of actual data. As if you couldn't tell from my crappy graphic...)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/Raisinspam/Street%20Fighter/28034f96.png

EDIT: Thanks to an old T.Akiba study, I was aware that the damage spread didn't really have a bell curve distribution. I was just speaking hypothetically.

If Zangief blocks a jab air fireball when at full health and the "true damage" is, say, 0.85, then it still has to rounded up to 1. Basically, it'd be unfavorable to be in the zero point anything zone, and if Zangief is in there deeper and more often than Ryu is, his stamina edge is going to show less than usual.

This would also help explain why you can more easily see the stamina differences when you test with blocks on the fierce air fireball, which does more damage and presumably yields fewer and shallower zero-point-whatever figures. With the fierce one, outside of the damage scaling areas, Zangief's actually soaking up ~19% more damage than Ryu, which is approaching expected levels. That's all just conjecture, though, because I still don't completely understand how the damage system works.

I originally thought that testing stamina with weaker moves (like the c.jab test) would be more accurate, but I don't think so anymore, because it seems the rounding on the smaller numbers leads to more mathematical "noise" and you get weird abnormalities that aren't very realistic, since most games consist of various medium-sized hits and don't end with 15 crouching jabs or 30 blocked air fireballs. :bgrin:

[Raisin]

I loves me some long posts!!

Sorry for the confusion; here's my updated and simplified results again. This is the stamina table for all grabs and most throws, the only exceptions being Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360 and 720, and T.Hawk's 720: EDIT: Zangief's 360 refers to his 360+P here. His 360+K far should also be on this list, along with the 2nd hit only of his 360+K close.
100%: Giant Russian (Zangief)
100%: Big Guys (Blanka, Boxer, Dictator, E.Honda, Sagat, T.Hawk)
100%: Pixies (Akuma, Cammy, Chun Li, Claw, DeeJay, Dhalsim, FeiLong, Guile, Ken, Ryu)

Stamina table for everything else, including the throw exceptions:
~122%: Giant Russian (Zangief)
~108%: Big Guys (Blanka, Boxer, Dictator, E.Honda, Sagat, T.Hawk)
~100%: Pixies (Akuma, Cammy, Chun Li, Claw, DeeJay, Dhalsim, FeiLong, Guile, Ken, Ryu)

That's it, period, as far as I know. It turns out I was wrong and normal stamina differences apply to the throw exceptions -- more on that in a minute. The "everything else" stamina table sometimes varies slightly, especially because (I think) very weak moves can have some funny interaction with the way damage figures are rounded, but it's not really anything that typically affects actual games.
___________________________________________

So, to make sure I understand what your are saying here... I want to sum them up in a few simple rules...

1) Damage Classes are:

Heavy: Zanggief ~ 122%
Mid: Blanka, Honda, Hawk, Dictator~ 108%
Everybody else -100% (base)

Right, but Boxer and Sagat are in the middle group too. I should've thought of better names for the tiers... Hopefully the new ones are easier to remember.

2) Generally speaking, every character dies from the same number of non-special throws/ grabs regardless of health %.
Yes. Although this goes for a lot of special throws as well, including Cammy's Hooligan Throw, T.Hawk's 360, Claw's Wall Dive throw, Claw's Wall Dive super throw, etc.

2b) Only Zangief gets the real health advantage against cr. jabs***. Mid group's advantage over base group is negligible.
Yes and no. Yes, technically this is true if it's Cammy doing c.jabs from round start to round finish. :bgrin: In a real game, though, just the normal stamina table is likely to be a lot more accurate, so don't worry about this funny exception. It was my fault for not testing more moves right from the start.

4) Zangief's health advantage over the base group drops from ~22% to ~15% on these three special throws, Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360 and 720, and T.Hawk's 720^^^.
OOPS! This is wrong. Sorry! I figured out why it seemed that way; it turns out it was just an illusion due to not taking enough trials with those particular moves. Anyway, they appear to use the same stamina table as usual, so one less annoying rules exception to worry about...

Does the cr. jab phenomena adhere to all light attacks, i.e. sd. jab, cr. short, and etc?
The hiccup in the c.jab test had nothing to do with the fact that the move was a jab. Again, I think the reason it came out a little weird for a certain subgroup is because it's just a really, really weak hit, and small figures lend themselves to more weirdness with regards to the way the game rounds numbers. In other words, it wasn't really a c.jab phenomenon but a "low number rounding weirdly" phenomenon.

I've since retested with Dhalsim's c.jab hits, which do a lot more damage, and they line up more or less perfectly.

Does T'Hawks 360 not [take stamina differences into account]?
Yes, T.Hawk's 360 ignores stamina, which is of course a good thing and means he can rock the big guys with it just as well as the small guys. Don't ask me why it has that property when Zangief's 360 doesn't or why his own 720 doesn't. :confused:

Hope I answered all your questions clearly!

[UltraDavid]

This is the stamina table for all grabs and most throws, the only exceptions being Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360 and 720, and T.Hawk's 720:
So this means that these moves deal damage according to the tables for everything else (Gief is 22% higher etc)? And when you say Zangief's 360, do you mean spinning pile driver (punch 360), or are you also talking about atomic suplex (close kick 360) and running bear grab (far kick 360)?

[fatboy]

I loves me some long posts!!

Right, but Boxer and Sagat are in the middle group too. I should've thought of better names for the tiers... Hopefully the new ones are easier to remember.



That was my bad I just forgot to add them.



Yes. Although this goes for a lot of special throws as well, including Cammy's Hooligan Throw, T.Hawk's 360, Claw's Wall Dive throw, Claw's Wall Dive super throw, etc.





This is the stamina table for all grabs and most throws, the only exceptions being Honda's Oicho, Zangief's 360 and 720, and T.Hawk's 720:



You don't mention Geif's 360 *KICK* grabs (both versions). In what category do they fall?



Hope I answered all your questions clearly!

You did thanks! I am going to change my 'summary' to reflect what you found!

For the record: You rock! :rock:

[Goryus]

lots of stuff

So, I spent some time looking into how "random" the random damage is.

I did 400 total trials, split between two different characters. Here are the results.

Ryu's cr.short
vs Ryu
Damage:.....3.....4.....5.....6.....7
#OfTimes:...3.....9....74.....4....10
Average: 5.09
#Spread: 5

vs Zangief
Damage:.....3.....4.....5.....6
#OfTimes:...4....85.....6.....5
Average: 4.12
#Spread: 4

Ryu's cr.fierce
vs Ryu
Damage:....23....24....25....26....27....28
#OfTimes:...3.....3....72....11.....6.....5
Average: 25.29
#Spread: 6

vs Zangief
Damage:....19....20....21....22....23
#OfTimes:...4.....4....84.....4.....4
Average: 21.00
#Spread: 5

The interesting part is that while the fierce did almost exactly 5 times as much average damage as the short, it only had one point more spread. That is, the amount of random variation in the damage appears to be virtually the same between shorts and fierces, even though the base damage is wildly different.

This means the ~2-point either way damage spread will cause the damage from a short to vary up or down by as much as 40%, but you're looking at more like 8-9% for a fierce.

Edit: Oh, on a completely unrelated note, I made a big update to the ST Ryu wiki page.

[Raisin]

Sorry, guys, I'm retarded and forgot to test Zangief's 360+K throws. The figures listed before were for his 360+P Spinning Piledriver.

Zangief's 360+K far (running grab) doesn't ignore stamina. So it gets lumped in with the other throw exceptions like his 720, Honda's Oicho, etc.

Zangief's 360+K close (double slam) is really weird. The first hit hit ignores stamina, but the second one doesn't. Since both hits are roughly the same strength, you can basically halve what the stamina differences would be and go with those numbers, namely Big Guys +~4% and Zangief +~11%. (Technically this isn't exactly accurate, because the first hit always has a base of 20 damage while the second varies depending on version used, so the ratio of stamina-ignoring to stamina-factoring damage is going to vary and blah blah blah, but whatever, close enough...)

So this means that these [throw exceptions] deal damage according to the tables for everything else (Gief is 22% higher etc)?
Right.

Maybe it's easier to think of things in terms of damage reduction instead of health extension. I was gonna put this alternative way of listing on my last post but figured I had spammed enough for one day.

Damage reduction on most throws and all grabs:
Everyone: 0%

Damage reduction on all other attacks, including the throw exceptions:
Giant Russian: ~18% (equivalent to ~22% more durability)
Big Guys: ~7.5% (equivalent to ~8% more durability)
Pixies: 0%

The throw exceptions are Honda's Oicho, T.Hawk's 720, and Zangief's 720, 360+P, 360+K far, and the 2nd hit only of 360+K close.

[Raisin]

Cool stuff, Goryus, thanks. :tup:

[fatboy]

Given all of Raisin’s recent discoveries and the several pages of debate on the "Numerical Value of the Life Bar" in NKI's 'ST in da House' thread, I started to think about this "vitality" thing in ST.

Something wasn’t making sense…

All of Raisin’s research distinctly shows that there are 3 different character stamina categories.

Which are:

1. Zangief
2. Big Characters
3. Normal (base group)

(See above posts for detailed list)

He proved this categorization by running an exercise showing the number of moves** to KO an opponent. He used fireballs, sweeps, and Dhalsim Jabs.

He noticed more fireballs were needed to kill Zangief than the BIG character, and more fireballs were needed to kill a ‘big’ character than a normal/ base character.

Same with sweeps, same with Sim’s jab.

Characters who had the most life took the most hits to KO

Without rewriting everything he already wrote about his exercise. It ultimately yielded the following results/ conclusion.

1. Normal/ Base Group has 100% of some vitality value for their life bar.
2. The ‘Big’ Group has 108% of the vitality value for their life bar.
3. Zangief has 122% of the vitality value for his life bar.

In other words some character have more “life.”

But wait…

NKI proved in the ‘Numerical Value of the Life Bar debate’ in NKI's 'ST in da House' thread that the life bar for each character is 100 points.

No character had any more “life” points than any other.

This is shown here:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=3454323&postcount=2927

And here:
http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/YBH.damage.gif

We also learned from Yoga Book Hyper that damage is give and as an percentage of the total life bar value.

As seen here:
http://nki.combovideos.com/ST/tenshyoukyaku.jpg

Constant life bar values for each character and relatively constant values for damage would indicate that each character should die in relatively same number of hits from the same move**!

Given our practical experience and Rasin’s findings of the three damage categories, we know this in not the case!

So I started to think…

We know that every character only has 100 hit points from NKI. Therefore, Zangief can’t have 122 hit points compared to Ryu’s 100 hit points.

If life bar are constant and the damage given by a move is relatively constant, then there has to be some variable to take into consideration. Or, some kind of modifier on the percentage of total life bar damage received from a move.

So, I worked out an approx. formula to represent what I am thinking. I am not suggesting this is the real in game engine. This just an example to illustrate:

(Life bar value before strike - (1- damage reduction factor) (% damage of move/ 100)))

= Life bar value after strike.

The Damage Reduction Factor Separates the groupings. I don’t think the fact is that Zangief has 22% more ‘life’ than Ryu.

I don’t think Raisin suggested exactly that either. Raisin submitted the fact that Zangief can take 22% MORE damage inflicted than Ryu.

I submit that Zangief takes LESS damage than Ryu. Given his life bar has the same numerical value he has to take less damage per hit. Hence, the concept of a damage reduction factor (DRF).

Essentially I am really saying the same thing as Raisin, but just from a different perspective. I am trying to working with in the constrictions of the life and damage rules.

I worked out the math on Raisin’s tests and results and factored the damage % values from the Yoga book Hyper. This is what I found:

- Zangief has a DRF .16. This means he take16% less damage per attack ** than the base group.

- BIG characters have a DRF of .08. This mean they take 8% less damage than the bas group.

The base group has no damage reduction factor.

This means that a fierce yoga flame would do:

- 20 % damage to total life bar value of the base group.
- 18%-19% damage to total life bar value of the BIG group.
- 17% damage to total life bar value to Zangief.

From practical experience as a Sim player I know:

- It takes about 5 Fr. Yoga Flames^ to Kill the base group.

- It almost always seems that I need a little more than 5 Fr. Yoga Flames^ to kill the BIG group. (i.e 5 Yoga Flames and a Jab, or a block fireball or two)

- I need 6 Fr. Yoga Flames^ to kill Zangief.

I’ve test the above and it seems to work within the confines of the engine.

Now for the record: I am not saying I am right by any means. This all could be incorrect if we found out that all Life bars are not constant for each character. (Maybe the life bar gets modified.- I don't no?)

All I am trying to suggest is, that thinking some characters have MORE life than others is incorrect, it would be better to seem as having the same life values but taking less damage per hit.

** Not counting throws. See Raisin’s posts
^ Due to the random and slight variations given to moves (NKI has shown this many times), this can change a little bit with every trial.

---------------------

EDIT-- GOD DAMN IT RAISIN!!! :wink: I spent the hour or so writing this and your post (#75) goes through this and makes the same point about damamge reduction!!!

[Triplejjj]

I don't mean to be a villain and sidetrack the SF research of Raisin, Fatboy and co. with the same old questions, but what exactly did Nohoho mean by "fixed" in post 57, where he said and I quote: In Japan it's Fixed Turbo 3. (the second highest speed)

SBO is going to use Fixed (HSF) Turbo 2. This might explain why you've seen this speed recently.

Thanks in advance for the assist.

[fatboy]

SBO is going to use Fixed (HSF) Turbo 2....

THis is the defualt speed. There will be no "free select option" of speeds 1,2, & 3.

You start the game and pick your character. The speed is just speed 2. There will be no on screen interface to change it. T

hink of programing your defualt setting on a home console to a desired speed. That speed just 'is,' until you go inside the options and change it again.

[Grits'N'Gravy]

My friend Craig recently asked me about why Toutanki used OG T Hawk against Gief and Chun.

I surmised that it was because Gief hasn't got a decent reversal against the splash besides a 360, and they can always "trade" SPDs after the tick... if it hits, dial a combo.

In the case of Chun I was thinking it was a similar situation and that he could just splash and her upkicks wouldn't do very much, (due to their weakness/angle) however I don't know the matchup well.

Are there any other reasons why somebody would use OG Hawk? I don't think his pokes really changed at all.

[fatboy]

I don't think his pokes really changed at all.

Not true buddy. :wgrin:

O.Hawk has WAY more priority on several of his normals.

The Body Splash and Standing Round House are the big ones I can pull of the top of my head. If I can pull scans** out of my YBH I can show ya.

Not to mention he has many easy dizzy comobo's.

**The hit boxes for the N.Hawk splash are incorrect in the YBH, see wiki of corrections.

[felineki]

fatboy; Coding wise, each character's life bar is 145 points (144 actually, one for each pixel of bar on the screen, but you can still be alive with 0 points (that is, a fully red bar), so you have to take at least 145 points of damage to be KO'ed). This applies to all characters, so technically Zangief et. al don't take any more damage than the rest, but rather every hit they take does less damage to them than it would to the others. YBH measures damage in terms of percentage, (hence, out of 100), because in general discussion that's more practical and easily understood than */145 points.

[fatboy]

fatboy...snip.....145 points.

Oh I see :sweat:. Gotya!

So technically Zangief et. al don't take any more damage than the rest, but rather every hit they take does less damage to them than it would to the others.

Yes! That is what I feel/ posted as well. However, it is only speculation given what I have been shown.

Anway, Thanks for the info/ update Felineki. :tup:

[AFG*TeN]

Not true buddy. :wgrin:

O.Hawk has WAY more priority on several of his normals.

The Body Splash and Standing Round House are the big ones I can pull of the top of my head. If I can pull scans** out of my YBH I can show ya.

Not to mention he has many easy dizzy comobo's.

**The hit boxes for the N.Hawk splash are incorrect in the YBH, see wiki of corrections.

Also worth mentioning is o.hawk's cr.jab has way more priority than n.hawk

try playing with both and you'll see how different they both feel

[gen]

OK, i checked the wiki and no answers so here's my question:

why do people do crouching RH into fireball with ryu, what's the purpose?

I know why they do C. RH into tatsumaki, which is for proper cross up positioning, I think, but C.RH to fireball i'm lost!

what's the advantage of doing this on a hit and on a blocked apponent?

[fatboy]

snip...

cr.rh>fireball:

1) Covers open frames after sweep is blocked to prevent retaliation.

2) Locks down opponent. It forces opponent to try to avoid the fireball or take block damage.

3) Keeps pressure on. Throw another fireball after, walk up sweep and repeat, AA if they Jump, or any other thing you can think of to keep momentum in your favor.

4) If opponent tries to jump after blocking the sweep they get hit by the fireball.

5) Builds meter whether or not the RH knocks down.

6) Pushes opponent closer to comer if both hits are blocked.

I am bet here are several more reasons that I can not think of off the top of my head right now, but this is a start.:wink:

I am sure you'll get some more answers from everbody else. :tup:

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Not true buddy. :wgrin:

O.Hawk has WAY more priority on several of his normals.

The Body Splash and Standing Round House are the big ones I can pull of the top of my head. If I can pull scans** out of my YBH I can show ya.

Not to mention he has many easy dizzy comobo's.

**The hit boxes for the N.Hawk splash are incorrect in the YBH, see wiki of corrections.

I thought that the differences in the splash was pretty much common knowledge. Why I said you could either tick or do a fat combo.

I don't know the priority on OG Hawk's stuff besides the splash really, I don't play him. (not planning to start) I just wanted to find out specifically why Toutanki plays OG vs certain characters. I think there must be a bigger reason than "3 or 4 of his normals are better", if OG Hawk were so much better, people would be using him over N Hawk.

[fatboy]

I think there must be a bigger reason than "3 or 4 of his normals are better."

I am not sure I aggree with that. (no flame intended) :lovin:

Example:

O. Hawk can counter much of Ryu's ground game with his Standing Round House. At the Right distance it beats fireballs, cr. forwrd, cr.RH sweeps, and Hurrican kicks. It leaves Ryu pretty much with Phycic Dp's. If ryu happens to get a fireball out, they exchange WAY in Hawks favor: 13% to 18%. He can't do this in his N.Hawk form.

For the record: I am not saying O.Hawk is better than RYU, I am just saying O.hawk can play better hit for hit against RYU than N.hawk.

This is of course coming from my eperience playing against a great O.Hawk player back in the day at SV golfland. Hard learned lessons there...:sweat:

Having a huge fast normal, that reaches 35% across the screen, hits ducking opponents, and does nearly 1/5th of your opponents life is a HUGE advantage. (compared to N.Hawk)

Having a Splash that goes through most normals in the game that can lead to huge damage regardless if it is blocked (tick 360 throw)or connected (easy dizzies) is a huge advantage. (compared to N.Hawk)

I am in the process of checking the other normals. IIRC his jabs, cr.stong, and st. strong are better. I'll keep you guys posted..... UPDATE: SEE ULTRADAVID'S POST BELOW.

However, you could be totally right in that there may be more than what we are discussing.

I am certianly no expert, and am open to discuss it. I would lilke to know.:wgrin:

[UltraDavid]

Old Hawk has more invincibility on the dragon punch, his standing roundhouse hits crouching opponents, his standing strong hits crouching opponents, his crouching jab has better priority, and his fierce splash is much better. For me, the only reasons to play N Hawk are his super and his ability to soften throws. I usually go with O Hawk, if you couldn't tell.

[Grits'N'Gravy]

It's interesting to know these generalities, I'm sure Craig will be happy to know about OG Hawk vs Ryu. Basically what you guys are saying is that outside of normals there isn't anything specific that beats Chun/Gief enough that somebody would pick OG Hawk. I thought that he might've had some more powerful tricks in the Chun or Gief match over New Hawk.

[fatboy]

I thought that he might've had some more powerful tricks in the Chun or Gief match over New Hawk.

Well the power of his splash is so good that it alone really helps in the Chun match. Some one might pick O.Hawk for that reason.

It is really hard for Chun to defend against an onslaught of splashes and jp. jabs once he gets in.

IIRC there is a post where NKI talks about the difficulty defending against this somewhere.

[gridman]

hah thanks for finding out for me ryan

[gen]

Thanks man! that explained a lot!

[Grits'N'Gravy]

hah thanks for finding out for me ryan

I don't mind asking the questions nobody else wants to. =)

Thanks guys again for the knowledge...

I have some interesting thoughts about OG Bison, my boy Tom falls for the "homing" skull diver a lot. It's pretty fun to use him but besides the natural things (no jmp juggles, less control over skull dives, some changed normals) I find that my pokes are pretty much exactly the same. Is OG Bison useable/have any interesting matchups, or is it completely worthless? I'd only be using him for fun... I don't have the Yoga Book Hyper.

[UltraDavid]

I've played against and seen people who've used just about every Old character in the game, with the three exceptions of Blanka, Claw, and Dictator. I think I remember seeing Old Dictator once, not in person and not even in a match vid, I think it was in a combo video or something where they were showing his different Devil's Reverse.

[jedi]

Updated the T.Hawk section since he so widely used :rolleyes: but still my favorite:lovin:

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/T._Hawk_%28ST%29

Feel free to point out any errors. If I got something wrong would like ot know since I pretty much only use him.

Some stuff needs to be moved to different sections but it's late and somehow I doubt many people, if anyone, cares about the Hawkalypse.

Well, tell me what ya think, see ya around.

[fatboy]

Updated the T.Hawk section since he so widely used :rolleyes: but still my favorite:lovin:

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/T._Hawk_%28ST%29

Feel free to point out any errors. If I got something wrong would like ot know since I pretty much only use him.

Some stuff needs to be moved to different sections but it's late and somehow I doubt many people, if anyone, cares about the Hawkalypse.

Well, tell me what ya think, see ya around.

I think it is gret to have more contributions to the wiki..

They one thing I would suggest would to be to work on the formatting of your tactics sections (NOT FLAMING :lovin:)... It is a little hard to follow everything.

[jedi]

I think it is great to have more contributions to the wiki..

They one thing I would suggest would to be to work on the formatting of your tactics sections (NOT FLAMING :lovin:)... It is a little hard to follow everything.


Thanks for the advice about the formatting fatboy:tup:. I'll try and see if I can tidy it up and make it easier to follow. Main thing I am having trouble with is the explanation of the negative edge 360. Hard to use just acronyms while explaning it. I can say it in my head but as you pointed out, it doesn't come off very clearly in text.

Hmm, any possible way to use the quick smileys, the button and direction inputs, on the wiki? That would make things a lot more clear I'd assume.

Going to try and add the matchups as well throughout the week.

If the gameplay doesn't change in ST HD, I am hoping it will spawn some more write ups in the wiki.

[ToyRobotTerror]

I would greatly appreciate if someone could update at least some of bisons matchups. I am starting to learn this game and at this point reverse engineering match ups is probably not the wisest thing to do.

[NKI]

When you're just trying to learn a character, I think the best thing to do is to watch videos of really good ST players, and take notes on what they do.

Here's a good placed to start:
http://uk.youtube.com/user/Guoguodi

[ShinVega]

I haven't found any data containing the precise number of Consecutive hits in a mult-hit throw for each character. Here's what I've done:
N. Ken Knee Bash 12 hits; avg. of 10 hits each time.
Gief Stomach Crunch 9 hits; face crush 11 hits
Blanka face bite 12 hits
Boxer Headbutt 10 hits
E. Honda Knee Bash 10 hits

That's all I've tried and I'm wondering if a limit exists. This was tried on AE on dummy (opp. for each was Guile).

The timing for the throws is the same for all characters. The most effective way is to focus on tapping back, foward as quickly as possible and focus on pressing short, foward, RH in that order as fast as possible. I found this technique works for me. I didn't find the answer to this question anywhere including the YBH (although I can't be 100% sure b/c I cannot read Japanese). I've even held the CPU in holds for up to 9-12 hits. It's easy once you get the timing down.

I also understand that a Human Opp. will try and counter; it doesn't have much of an effect unless they also know the proper timing.

If anyone knows the exact limits please post for each character

[Striderhyru05]

any way to change the speed of a match?

[fatboy]

I also understand that a Human Opp. will try and counter; it doesn't have much of an effect unless they also know the proper timing.



Not true, countering has a huge effect and is totally helpfull... and very easy to do.

There isn't much 'timing’ when countering/ getting out of a grab. Just enter the inputs to counter as fast as you can.

If fact, most experienced players can/will shake out in 1-2 hits. You’ll never even get close to reaching the max limit in a real match.

[ShinVega]

You're right Fatboy. I have no idea why I wrote that. :xeye:

I would still like to know if there is a limit to multi-hit throws.

[fatboy]

I would still like to know if there is a limit to multi-hit throws.

IIRC: the computer on it hardest level can nearly kill you with a grab. they hit you hella fast and do a shit load of damage.

[orochizoolander]

Can someone postup a list of everyones matchups against each other and why x does good/bad against y characters? cuz if theres anything i learned from evo2k7 it's that AE is VERY different then ST.

[ShinVega]

IIRC: the computer on it hardest level can nearly kill you with a grab. they hit you hella fast and do a shit load of damage.

When I said limit I meant a Limit for humans. The CPU can hold you for as long as it wants (that means an entire life bar). I didn't even think you could link more than 7 hits but with practice I was able to get up to 12 hits (which I believe is the limit for some throws).

[NKI]

Can someone postup a list of everyones matchups against each other and why x does good/bad against y characters?I don't think you realize what an enormous request that is.

(Sixteen characters in the game = 256 possible match-ups, and that's not counting any old characters.)

[7 5 0]

Hello NKI, you stated in the Wiki faq regarding ST on DC that there is a slight delay in each round to when the character can move. Also, you stated canceling into super is easier than CPSII version.

Besides these two flaws, is it safe to conclude ST on DC is arcade perfect? including tweaking dipswitch settings of course like turning off reversal supers.

Oh yeah, nice update on the ST wiki. Keep up the great work.

[kedawa]

The wiki says there is a free play option in the U.S. version, but none of the ROMs I've come across have it.

Is there any chance of getting a complete translation of the dip switch settings for Super Street Fighter 2X for Matching Service?

This is the most complete translation I can find:
http://nki.combovideos.com/dc.html

EDIT: BTW, I think the ????/??/?? preset is just a convenient way of zeroing out the dip switches before manual editing, and nothing more.

[NKI]

Hello NKI, you stated in the Wiki faq regarding ST on DC that there is a slight delay in each round to when the character can move. Also, you stated canceling into super is easier than CPSII version.

Besides these two flaws, is it safe to conclude ST on DC is arcade perfect? including tweaking dipswitch settings of course like turning off reversal supers.The screen size is also slightly off (but this doesn't seem to affect the size of hit boxes or anything).

Other than that, as far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty close to arcade perfect.

The wiki says there is a free play option in the U.S. version, but none of the ROMs I've come across have it.Are you sure you're not playing the World version? I just double-checked, and US version 940223 does have free play.

Is there any chance of getting a complete translation of the dip switch settings for Super Street Fighter 2X for Matching Service?

This is the most complete translation I can find:
http://nki.combovideos.com/dc.htmlPerhaps with time. (The first step is figuring out what they actually do.)

[kedawa]

Other than that, as far as I can tell, it seems to be pretty close to arcade perfect.

Are you sure you're not playing the World version? I just double-checked, and US version 940223 does have free play.

Okay, I'm just stupid and was playing the world version, assuming it was US because it's not the japan version.

There are a couple of dip switches that don't seem to do what is described, specifically 21 and 3C, although I may just be unclear about the exact effect.

[SNKZato1]

I didn't see this being answered, but I may be blind.
What is the correct speed for tournament play, Turbo3 or 4?
THANKS!

[NKI]

If you're talking about the arcade version, usually people play Turbo 3 (both in Japan, and in America, despite the fact that those are different speeds).

[eruditemode]

hello all. Just wanted to ask vs DIC, what moves are guaranteed after blocking his fierce psycho crusher? I am referring to a complete block where he passes through you. Some characters have the ability to safely hit the prick before he lands. If you guys can complete this list as I'm sure it will come in handy for some people. I've compiled the following just from memory and I'm not sure at all if its 100% so feel free to append and amend as needed.

Dhalsim - far strong
Blanka - cr. fierce
Cammy -st. fwd
honda - 100 hand slap (medium and fierce only)
Ryu - super?
Ken - ??? (roundhouse)
guile - ?
Dic - scissor kick (Taira move)
claw - cr. jab
Sagat - ?
Gief - green hand fierce
Hawk - ?
Dee Jay - fireball
fei - ?
boxer - super?


If you could help out with this list I'd appreciate it.

[Axel Kelly]

Guile can flash kick and super

[ShinVega]

hello all. Just wanted to ask vs DIC, what moves are guaranteed after blocking his fierce psycho crusher? I am referring to a complete block where he passes through you. Some characters have the ability to safely hit the prick before he lands. If you guys can complete this list as I'm sure it will come in handy for some people. I've compiled the following just from memory and I'm not sure at all if its 100% so feel free to append and amend as needed.

Dhalsim - far strong
Blanka - cr. fierce
Cammy -st. fwd
honda - 100 hand slap (medium and fierce only)
Ryu - super?
Ken - ??? (roundhouse)
guile - ?
Dic - scissor kick (Taira move)
claw - cr. jab
Sagat - ?
Gief - green hand fierce
Hawk - ?
Dee Jay - fireball
fei - ?
boxer - super?


If you could help out with this list I'd appreciate it.

It depends on where you are on the stage to begin with (I'm assuming you mean in the middle). If it's on the edge you have more time b/c of his landing frames.

Blanka - Horizontal Roll/Vertical Roll(this ones easy but has to be timed like reversal), c.Fierce, theoretically jab electricity
Cammy - RH cannon spike, s.foward
Honda - Fierce Headbutt, 100 hand slap, Super
Ryu - F+Fierce, maybe DP depending on speed setting (doesn't hit on first frame and doesn't travel very far), Super
Ken - s.RH, s.Fierce, Fierce DP (use negative edge)
Guile - Fierce SB, Flash Kick, bazooka knee, F+foward (not %100 on this), Super
Dic - Scissor Kick, s.Foward??, Super
Claw - cr. jab, c.strong, Flip Kick
Sagat - Tiger Knee, Tiger Uppercut, s.Foward
Gief - Banishing Punch, Lariat (3K)
Hawk - Tomahawk (DP)
Dee Jay - Fireball, Machine Gun upper, RH upkick (D, UP), s.Strong (don't have my YBH with me so I'm not for sure).
Fei - Fierce Rekka Ken, Flame Kick, Super
Chun - RH UpKick, theoretically lighting legs, Fireball, Super
Boxer - Dashing Strait, Dashing Upper, Bull Charge, Super

That's the best I can do off the top of my head. Hope it helps.

[SNKZato1]

If you're talking about the arcade version, usually people play Turbo 3 (both in Japan, and in America, despite the fact that those are different speeds).

I noticed this, in some cases Turbo 3 is the Consoles Turbo 4. I've seen matches using both speeds, I'm just making sure im training at the right speed.

[eruditemode]

thanks a lot for that list. I'm curious about the Ken fierce dp. You say it must be input using negative edge. Is there any reason for that? Secondly, if he is passing right through you, and let's say you are ken on 1p side facing right, should you do dp using 1p motions, or wait for him to pass you and do it using 2p notation.

[ShinVega]

thanks a lot for that list. I'm curious about the Ken fierce dp. You say it must be input using negative edge. Is there any reason for that? Secondly, if he is passing right through you, and let's say you are ken on 1p side facing right, should you do dp using 1p motions, or wait for him to pass you and do it using 2p notation.

What I meant is you might as well use negative edge to make it easier. You're have to hold away, and as soon as Dic crosses you up hit d,d/a+FP (this keeps you guarding and allows your character to switch sides). This is extremely difficult to do and requires perfect timing and execution. I personally find it easier to release a button than have to input another command (especially when speed is a problem).

Note: I've done this with human opp. by repeating over and over again until I got it. In a real match you won't know it's coming so it would be a lot more difficult.

[nohoho]

I copypasted the following items to the wiki:
Honda vs. Dhalsim (Ehonda)
Guile vs. Blanka (nohoho)
Guile vs. Vega (T.Akiba via nohoho)
Dhalsim vs. Vega (A-Dhalsim)
Vega vs. Chun (Graham)
Vega vs. Chun (CapMaster)
Vega vs. Blanka (CapMaster)
Vega vs. Bison (CapMaster)
Bison vs. Blanka (nohoho)

Uh I realized pretty quickly that I have no clue how editing the wiki works (sometimes you have to use html sometimes no?) and I can't be arsed to learn heh hope it doesn't look too bad.

Also them place holders and stuff are kinda wacky. Do we need a place holder for like Guile vs. O.Dictator? Like someone is supposed to write a detailed breakdown of that match?


Things I miss (that poking through "in the house" reminded me of:)
1) The hameko uploader. Damn that site was sweet.

2) DSP posting ST strategy. Shit ain't the same around here without that dude.

[UltraDavid]

When you guys write things on the Wiki, make sure that you sign your name at the ends of your posts.

[Airthrow]

I just experimented, if you press no buttons O. Boxer does more hits than new boxer?

[JGD CHAOS]

In the character matchups section of the wiki there is nothing about ones that give dhalsim problems. Is there any?

[djfrijoles]

When you guys write things on the Wiki, make sure that you sign your name at the ends of your posts.


Can any body write in the Wikki or do you have to have some tourneys under your belt? I'm just the average next guy playin this game since World Warrior like most of us but I'd love to contribute to the Wikki.:wonder:

[UltraDavid]

Nah man, anyone can do it. Just make sure it's reasonable.

[X-Static]

I'm working on the DJ section. I've added combos and match-ups against the shotos, Sagat, Zangief, Dhalsim and Honda. Any help would be appreciated.

[djfrijoles]

I'm working on the DJ section. I've added combos and match-ups against the shotos, Sagat, Zangief, Dhalsim and Honda. Any help would be appreciated.

I was gonna contribute but decided not to because the Wikki is to holy for my unworthy hands. I'll leave it to you guys. If it ever gets done I plan to print the whole thing out.

I am however going to go read what you wrote after this. But one question,
I thought you said you were a Gief player? Maybe I miss understood you.

[X-Static]

I play a few characters: Dee Jay, Zangief, Blanka and Vega (without all the cheapness). I also use a bunch of others casually. The best way to understand a match is to play that character.

If you want to contribute to the Dee Jay page, please do.

Edit: Just added to the Blanka section of DJ's page.

[AFG*TeN]

that would be great.... but just so you know so you don't waste your time alot of things have already been translated check out http://www.super-turbo.net/

[ShinVega]

There's already a thread in this forum for that exact purpose:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=124818

[ToyRobotTerror]

i want more matchups to be written for all characters

[SuperStar]

Hi everyone. have not played any SF's for years & years & years. Browse thru these threads brings back memories.
Noob question here:
To pick the old characters (without Super) do I have to move (the cursor?) to my wanted character 1st, then hold start , then input the directional commands , then press a button??????

I'll go to USA CA this month practice 1st before I can offer at least $400 money match (1st to 4) to anyone.
May have to ban some character(s).

SEE YOU WONDERFUL PEOPLE UP THERE, CALI 1ST.:cool:

[Ehonda]

Just go to the character you wish to choose then wiggle the joystick continually from diagonally up right to diagonally down left as fast as you can (This way actually works with all character codes and is just as dependable as each characters specific old character code) then press jab.

[SuperStar]

Just go to the character you wish to choose then wiggle the joystick continually from diagonally up right to diagonally down left as fast as you can (This way actually works with all character codes and is just as dependable as each characters specific old character code) then press jab.

Thanks man, I'll try it.

[ToyRobotTerror]

Jab, code, jab. Its not that hard.

[UltraDavid]

This is actually answered in the wiki, amusingly. Ding! (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#The_Characters)

[Footsy Bebop]

I'll play you some. Which characters did you want to ban?

I'll go to USA CA this month practice 1st before I can offer at least $400 money match (1st to 4) to anyone.
May have to ban some character(s).

SEE YOU WONDERFUL PEOPLE UP THERE, CALI 1ST.:cool:

[SuperStar]

I'll play you some. Which characters did you want to ban?

Sorry about not answering for a few days, I did not check this thread often.
Thanks for accepting my money match offer.
THE TOP TIER CHARACTERS GOT TO BE BANNED. [AKUMA, NEW & OLD SAGAT ARE ALL I AM ASKING FOR]. THESE CHARACTERS ARE JUST GOT TO GO (like they ban them in Japan).
I am not from Japan or Korea btw.

I should be in LA & ready for (1st to 4) money matches in very very early March 2008. I'll let you know the date & time & location soon, unless an unfortunate disaster struck me.
See you later.

[SuperStar]

This is actually answered in the wiki, amusingly. Ding! (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#The_Characters)

you are right, where was I searching? Did not search careful enough .
Thanks , there should not be a problem now, except for the arcades locations. I'd assume they are mostly in the CBD's.

[SuperStar]

omg, can you believe it.? i've been in LA for 2 days searching for the arcades down town LA and not even 1 in my sight. Anyone have the exact address and name of the arcades near metro centre please let me know. (the ones which have SF'S CvS2, KOF's & Tekken 5DR & 6). Thanks hips.

[nohoho]

Better to search on the 'net dude heh. Let your fingers do the walking? Did you contact Footsy? (^^^)

Family Fun Arcade is the #1 spot. In the northwest part of the city somewhere. Also UCLA may still have a game room but I don't know what they've got. Anyway this isn't really the right place to discuss this...

http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

http://www.denjin-video.com/

EDIT: also there's a beta test going on @ FFA this weekend
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151007
Besides getting to see new games this probably means there will be a lot of people there playing various shit.

[nohoho]

Wow I'll stop editing that post now.

[SuperStar]

sorry about keeping you waiting, did not know it can take a long time to settle down in LA. It took me a very very long time to find Regency Fun Centre few days ago no thanks to that Visitor-Info-Centre gave me false destination. I also went to check out Family Fun Arcade yesterday.
The good thing about these places is that it costs only 25 cents per game. The bad things are 1stly they are located in the middle of nowhere far away from metro centre. 2ndly the joystick if not the buttons are not working that well. Every machine I played had to have some failures or broken buttons. Even T5DR was frozen when I put my card in. I can't even find T6 anywhere.

I'd just keep on searching for more arcades which has better working cabnets then I'll let you know real fast. Footsy Bebop (pardon me if I spell wrong) just hold on there, I should have listen to you & check out Cal Poly Ponoma 1st. See you soon.
BTW LA is very beautiful & so are the ladies here , may be I should try to get 1 soon:lovin::lovin:

[SuperStar]

that's it I am giving up looking for Arcade Infinity, it is hard b/c I don't have a car, I tried to find it the other night, & in the afternoon the next day , both failed.

I went to Cal Poly Pomona & there is no SF Super Turbo . Can't see it . They do have MvC2?, T5DR, CvS2 etc.

Super Arcade in Walnut has T5DR, T6 etc . As for SF Super Turbo at least the Hard Kick button is not working at all.

I've been waiting a few weeks for the technician to fix the SF Hyper Fighting screen at UCLA and so far he has not done it yet. This is bad man.

There is an Arcade next to UCLA but they don't have any SF's

I went to the Arcade in Santa Monica & all they have is SF Alpha & some other games.

FFA & RFC were previously mentioned have broken buttons or joystic.

Pacific Theatre only have few other games.

Macy's Plaza in Metro Centre does not have SF's neither.

Apparently I have no solution to where are the best machines for Money Match on SF' Super Turbo , or Hyper Fighting ,or Champion Edition in Southern California.

Anyone know the exact location of the arcade name 'Camelot' plz let me know, or at least the suburb.

Bebop: Where do you play SF's??

[fatboy]

THE TOP TIER CHARACTERS GOT TO BE BANNED. [AKUMA, NEW & OLD SAGAT ARE ALL I AM ASKING FOR]. THESE CHARACTERS ARE JUST GOT TO GO (like they ban them in Japan).




Did you mean to say this? Ban N.Sagat???:sweat:

[ParryPerson.]

Did you mean to say this? Ban N.Sagat???:sweat:

banning o.sag is a pretty dumb as shit thing to do.

banning n.sagat is lol

[SuperStar]

Did you mean to say this? Ban N.Sagat???:sweat:

well he does look exactly the same as O.Sagat & his moves are similar enough so why not banning him as well. BTW Sagat especially old is one of my main characters. He is so cheap so again why not ban them both..

Anyway that is not the issue now , The problem is Apparently I have no solution to where are the best machines for Money Match on SF' Super Turbo , or Hyper Fighting ,or Champion Edition in LA Southern California.

If I can't find a properly working cabnet soon in LA , I'd head towards San Diego or Texas very soon & hopefully they have it there. Also hopefully people accepting my money match challenge offer.

[fatboy]

well he does look exactly the same as O.Sagat & his moves are similar enough so why not banning him as well. BTW Sagat especially old is one of my main characters. He is so cheap so again why not ban them both..

Anyway that is not the issue now , The problem is Apparently I have no solution to where are the best machines for Money Match on SF' Super Turbo , or Hyper Fighting ,or Champion Edition in LA Southern California.



Dude.. I mean this with motherly love... Like telling your son not to play with a loaded gun... not to run in a parking lot... or not to swim in rip currents... or stick not a fork in a light socket....not to swim on a full belly...etc...etc...:lovin:

Listen... If you really don't understand the difference betwenn N.Sagat and O.Sagat, I must say ( I mean this in a very nice way, I really am not trying to flame) that you really have no business playing money matches (esp. in Cali).

I am just trying to save you some face and you some cash. You can't say you have not been warned.

I love that you post in the forums and are looking to meet players. But, I get the feeling that you need to learn a bit more about the game b4 you start taking money matches.

I could be worng.. but if you mean what you said (BOLDED ABOVE).. I don't think I am.

Good luck none the less! If you go to give it a try. :tup:

[SuperStar]

Dude.. I mean this with motherly love... Like telling your son not to play with a loaded gun... not to run in a parking lot... or not to swim in rip currents... or stick not a fork in a light socket....not to swim on a full belly...etc...etc...:lovin:

Listen... If you really don't understand the difference betwenn N.Sagat and O.Sagat, I must say ( I mean this in a very nice way, I really am not trying to flame) that you really have no business playing money matches (esp. in Cali).

I am just trying to save you some fa