DOA 4 - Any Good ?

[Uthred]

Im considering picking up a 360 and as the only fighting game on it at the moment is DOA 4 Im tempted to pick it up, but so far Ive been disappointed by the poor depth of the DOA series (which I suppose would be the question why I continue to buy them ;) ). However Ive heard that DOA 4 offers a significant improvement and was looking for opinions on its quality and depth.

[free]

doa's are same as always, turtle and counter endlessley, or mash it up lol, but non'theless its a good game for a little fun.

[Demon Dash]

Yeah, it's kind of like marmite... You either love it or you hate it...

[Sweet Tooth]

If you don't counter a counter which was a counter to your counter of their counter to your attack then your dead.


That's DOA4 in a nutshell.

[Jushiness]

i suggest you delete the thread before you get flamed.. doa haters run this place >>

[Slide]

It's fun, and it's actually pretty good, get the game.
it's also on the rise.

[NG1313]

DOA in general is a pretty decent game, perhaps even pretty good. I've played a couple people on Live I never stood a chance against. It might have to do with my poor adaption, and a player with different instincts might do better, even though he might be a novice. Their key tactic is to keep you stunned, not knock you down or knock you in the air for juggles... I can't really explain how they avoid being outguessed by me.. if I don't counter, they keep attacking slowly with weak, but stun oriented moves. If I counter, they either wait till it's over and continue attacking weak, quick attacks.. or just go for the throw. This is actually just the style of this one guy. Basically, to take some sort of control in the game, you have to stun the opponent. Then you can wait for a counter, do another stunner, or knock them in the air for a juggle.

But then again, I sometimes lose to the simplest playstyles and proceed to curse the damn game and leave.

I haven't played DOA4.

[Khiempossible]

counter/block > attack > throw > counter/block

basically the idea is get your opponent stunned so you can remove his option of blocking and force the same retarded mixup over and over and over again. Tekken wakeup style, only simpler.

Don't forget you can slow escape if you're opponent is baiting a counter. That strategy actually sucks, but remember you can.

[ScithDeath]

As Jwong said "Mash, Mash, counter lawl"

[spudlyff8fan]

You love it if you play it and you hate it if you don't. Nobody here's played it.

[Murt!]

As Jwong said "Mash, Mash, counter lawl"

lol he said "mashmashmash-counter-mashmash".

[Lantis]

You love it if you play it and you hate it if you don't. Nobody here's played it.

You're starting to sound like a fuckin' broken record.

Put up an arguement or STFU.

[Murt!]

You're starting to sound like a fuckin' broken record.

Put up an arguement or STFU.

Sir, as a representative of the SRK zoo, I will have to ask you to not feed the trolls.

[spudlyff8fan]

This isn't an argument, bro. It's a yes or no question.

[Slide]

you guys(Lantis and Murt) seem to be trolling the thread worse than he is.
I also saw another post by Murt in the thread in the Evo section trollin up.

both of ya'll are messed up.

[kunio kun fan]

Sir, as a representative of the SRK zoo, I will have to ask you to not feed the trolls.

Ah ha ha, greatest quote ever.

[Lantis]

you guys(Lantis and Murt) seem to be trolling the thread worse than he is.
I also saw another post by Murt in the thread in the Evo section trollin up.

both of ya'll are messed up.

You don't know the full story.

A while ago (which was probably 3 weeks ago) in the "worst game you've ever played" thread, some people kept bringing up the name of DOA as one of said games and this "spuddlywhatever" turd kept saying "You don't know what you're talking about" and his main reason for doing so was only "you haven't played the game, so you don't know (whereas it was pretty obvious that some people did play it and even pointed out some reasons why).

When he was asked to give SPECIFIC reasons why DOA wasn't that bad, he kept repeating the same tune ("You haven't played the game enough") and just ended up posting up links, which means he could not give a concise answer himself, which is pretty fuckin' weak.

So there.

[spudlyff8fan]

Uhh...the reason I played the "you haven't played it" card was because he admittedly had not even played it, and said that he had only played DOA1, 2 and 3.0. And no. Nobody pointed out a single reason why it was bad other than "lol, this one time my 8 year old cuzin went on Live and beat somebody" which, according to everyone else for every other game, is just plain dumb since XBL is no actual gauging of skill.

[Slide]

You don't know the full story.

snip

So there.

obviously not.

but the history isn't in this thread, just by this thread alone it looked pretty retarded.

that's all im sayin

[DaveNK]

DOA:4 is pretty good

They lower the window in counters making it not as easier as previous installments.

You no longer have shortcuts, (I.E analog from Xbox where you can stupidly do the Izuna Drop starting with Grab and repeatedly pressing that one button over and over again to have it down in perfect succsession (sp?)

They add more stuns to make the game more of an offensive style of combat. There are juggles but don't expect any thing flashy along the lines of Tekken. (they more along the lines of VF, just DOA:4 lasts a little longer)

Personally the 360 pad is shit to play on, so I suggest investing in a Arcade Stick if you have the means... but if your just going in for a casual play then the Digital pad I guess isn't bad.

[spudlyff8fan]

You can use the analog stick for DOA4 easily enough. But it'll take some practice before you stop jumping when you try a half circle.

The 360 pad really really sucks though. And really...we're all gonna need a 360 stick sooner or later, so why not hunt down a DOA4 stick?

[Jushiness]

You can use the analog stick for DOA4 easily enough. But it'll take some practice before you stop jumping when you try a half circle.

The 360 pad really really sucks though. And really...we're all gonna need a 360 stick sooner or later, so why not hunt down a DOA4 stick?


people are already modding 360 controllers into sticks. check out the tech forums... if the 360 gets some decent fighters i'm gonna try it, assuming my brother gets the 360.

also theres a thread about modding the DoA4 stick with sanwa parts

though i'm praying that the wii gets the SNK games. KoF XII/MI3 on wii ftw

i wonder who will make the first wii pad mod

[spudlyff8fan]

Nobody will make a Wii pad mod because they can just plug it into the Cube slot. They can use the Wavebird for wirelessness if need be.

[DaveNK]

The wii already has a pad that is coming out, it's similar to the old school SNES controllers

[spudlyff8fan]

The classic controller needs to be plugged into the Wiimote, and will be sold seperately. And will probably cost more.

All the controller mods for sticks on the Wii will be done, in all likelihood, with the Cube pads.

[jae hoon]

DOA 4 sucks ass, I cant believe I wasted 3 to 4 months of my life playing that garbage. Shitty hit detection, 10 frame counters that still do way to much damage. Enviromental damage is pretty much unavoidable and does way to much damage. RPS fighting engine etc etc etc.

[Akuma4Real]

DOA 4 is actually a good game. It is significantly different than other games. I see people complaining about the hold system. If you get owned by it, you are a noob. You have to learn when to cancel your strings and throw when you anticipate a hold. That comes with practice, just like every other game out there.

[Kayin]

20 frame counters that still do way to much damage.

Counters are 10 frames in DoA4, and they don't do near as much damage as in DoA2.

[jae hoon]

Counters are 10 frames in DoA4, and they don't do near as much damage as in DoA2.

Yeah your right didnt notice the typo. DOA 4 is definetly an improvement in the series but its still by far and away the worst out there. Although intentionally. DOA was made to be easy and for everyone to play.

[MENTHOL]

I don't know. I remember Itagaki going on record before DOA4 came out that it would be the greatest fighting game ever that is the measuring stick for all other fighters. :confused: And that he wouldn't make a new DOA until he feels anything else is better than DOA4. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Shifty Nevers]

only think i believe DOA has over any other fighter is solid netcode

[Shadowcuz]

I don't know. I remember Itagaki going on record before DOA4 came out that it would be the greatest fighting game ever that is the measuring stick for all other fighters. :confused: And that he wouldn't make a new DOA until he feels anything else is better than DOA4. :confused: :confused: :confused:
lol Itagaki says lots of stuff:lol:

[spudlyff8fan]

When did guys that commited to their series intentionally set out to make it shallow? Hell, Itagaki isn't trying to make the game shallow. Which works out well since it isn't. It's easy to reach mid-level play in DOA4. That's damn true. But come on. When did anybody start judging fighters by mid-level play?

But really, developers don't set out to make their games shallow. It's stupid to think they do. Kojima didn't say "hmm...I think that MGS3's ending might be a little too heavy. I think I'll dumb it down a bit?" Will Wright didn't say "hmm...I'm thinking we need to take that pesky budget system out of Sim City, otherwise the game is a BIT too hard."

Really, if Itagaki gave two craps about making games accessible to everyone, then what's the excuse for Ninja Gaiden?

But yeah, Itagaki runs his mouth alot.

[thedahmerkid]

DOA4 may not be freaking awesome, but if you can get the game and a stick for $60, and you have XBL, you must get it.

The game murders the first 3, everything about it is improved. It isn't as deep as most 2D fighters, but it is more fun than a lot of them. The controls are pretty simple, but that allows you to learn more characters, and play more mindgames. There is definitely more to the game than mashing and countering, and you'll see that when you get around B+ or A level. The graphics are beautiful, except the flowing medusa hair (like that matters in a fighting game, but still it's a nice bonus). The stages are mostly cool, and environmental damage, while not everyone likes it, is pretty unique to DOA, unless you count wall damage. A lot of people hate on DOA4, but I think a lot of it comes from their opinions of past DOA games, which were nowhere near as good. Also it is very different from what "hardcore" fighting fans want to play, so instead of saying they don't like it, they say it sucks. DOA4, in my opinion, is a good fighting game, and it gets points for not being like every other fighting game. It took 4 iterations to get where it is, but now that it's there, I would recommend buying it, especially since it's like $30.

[Shinto]

Man Fuck DOA 4 its not even a fighting game, even the fucking guy who made it said so him self, FUCK DOA, I dont give a fuck about its fun.

10 out of 10 doctor's says DOA4 Sucks ass.

[spudlyff8fan]

Come, come, Shinto. It isn't good to make things up.

[thedahmerkid]

Shinto's mom told me she was worried because Shinto sits in his room for 12 hours a day practicing parry techniques in 3S.

**edit: this comment was supposed to be lame. like haters believing opinions are facts kinda lame. and what kinda response are you supposed to give to "Man Fuck DOA 4 its not even a fighting game, even the fucking guy who made it said so him self, FUCK DOA, I dont give a fuck about its fun.", I'd say a lame response for a lame statement, no?

[Spooty Whiteboy]

Come, come, Shinto. It isn't good to make things up.

I think Shinto's referring to that time that Itagaki said something along the lines of: "When I made DoA4. I was making DoA4 and not a fighting game."

That's not the exact quote, of course. But it was kind of like that. Someone on the boards has the quote as their signature...

[Shinto]

Shinto's mom told me she was worried because Shinto sits in his room for 12 hours a day practicing parry techniques in 3S.

Quoted for being a retard.
Lord knows I really should be practicing how to counter in a random ass game.


And thank You Spooty I was referring to that.
I know what I'm Talking about.

[spudlyff8fan]

Dahmer is indeed dumb.

And aside from the fact the guy doesn't speak english, what he probably meant is that he was actually developing his own fighting game, instead of just ripping a bunch of aspects out of other fighting games. Either that or he could've meant he just doesn't give a damn what everyone says. Which is something he'd say in Japanese which would probably get mistranslated.

[Azagtoth]

What he probably meant is that he was actually developing his own fighting game, instead of just ripping a bunch of aspects out of other fighting games.

Too bad he basically DID rip a bunch of aspects out of other fighters.

[Kyokuji]

Itagaki's definition of depth seems somewhat questionable. Especially given his track record of going off and rambling about how shitty Tekken is. I honestly want to know if he has some kind of beef with someone at Namco or something.

And Spud, I'd have to agree with some of the others. Your argument would be a lot more credible if you'd give actual gameplay reasons to back your statements up.

1UP: If you're going after the late-adopter, which might consist of more casual gamers, do you think they're ready for how hardcore DOA4 is?

TI: Is DOA4 really that hardcore? The elementary school kids that come to my house to play are always squealing with laughter as they kick the ass of the final boss, Alpha 152S.
1UP: Ninja Gaiden was recognized as a lot harder and a lot more complex than other action games, while Dead or Alive is considered a fighting game that anyone can get into. Why the difference between your approaches to two different genres?

Itagaki: What's important with a fighting game is that casual gamers can enjoy it, but also that if you're really good at it, you can do more special moves, the depth is there for expert players.

On a semi-unrelated note, this gave me a good laugh:

"1UP: Speaking of your enemies, Tekken 5 just came out in North America (and we know how you feel about Tekken), but doesn't feature any sort of online play, multi-tiered stages, or tag-team play. Do you think they chickened out of the online arena?

Itagaki: First they put in all of these half-finished "features", then they take them right out again. Tag fights, elevation differences, walls. I don't know if it's because they're impatient, or because they lack the ability, but no matter the reason those guys are a pretty weird bunch. Any of those things would have become a bonafide feature if they took the time to do it right (laughs). Oh, and come on guys, let's quit trying to hide the prehistoric nature of the main product by tacking on some absurd "bonus game." I have been saying this for 5 years, haven't I? If you have the time to make an action-style "bonus game", why don't you create an honest-to-god action game and sell it as a standalone product? Oh, and if you're going to bother including such a "unique" form of ball play, you should do a beach volleyball game instead (laughs).

Oh, that's right, I forgot something important. You guys did do a "bonafide" action game, didn't you? What was it called again? Oh yeah, NINA: Death by Degrees."

Oh shit.

Sad that 1UP doesn't realize 'why' they took out the elevated stages.
Most of the major gaming publications don't seem to have any clue that Tekken 4 is broke as shit.

[NekoFever]

I thought DOA4 was OK. Nothing else...just OK. Decent fun and you can fight as a Spartan and jam a plasma grenade into someone's stomach which is almost worth it alone. It's not as deep as they like to think it is, though.

One thing I can say about it though, is that aside from some hokey hair effects it's gorgeous and one of the best ways to show off an HDTV if you have one.

[Shinto]

Itagaki's definition of depth seems somewhat questionable. Especially given his track record of going off and rambling about how shitty Tekken is. I honestly want to know if he has some kind of beef with someone at Namco or something.

And Spud, I'd have to agree with some of the others. Your argument would be a lot more credible if you'd give actual gameplay reasons to back your statements up.




On a semi-unrelated note, this gave me a good laugh:



Oh shit.
Sad that 1UP doesn't realize 'why' they took out the elevated stages.
Most of the major gaming publications don't seem to have any clue that Tekken 4 is broke as shit.



ROFL that guy is full of himself.

[Khiempossible]

VF3 > every DOA incarnation.

[DaveNK]

Too bad he basically DID rip a bunch of aspects out of other fighters.


In this day an age what fighter hasn't? [/rehtorical]


KOF series to my knowledge was the first to introduce 3 on 3 matches, capcom took the idea/ripped and or the concept (however one wants to look at it) and made it into the vs. series as we know today.

there are plenty others out there that's done the same. hell I remeber someone once told me that Yu suzuki ripped some ideas from Tekken to implant into VF (obviously that gave me a good laugh for a bit)

[Azagtoth]

there are plenty others out there that's done the same. hell I remeber someone once told me that Yu suzuki ripped some ideas from Tekken to implant into VF (obviously that gave me a good laugh for a bit)

You were lied to. Try playing VF. =P

BTW, that statement was only meant as a counter example. I'm well aware of how much companies tend to jock each other.

And Itagaki went far beyond taking just an idea or two and implementing it into his own engine. He took a whole engine (VF) and implemented 1 or 2 other ideas (he dumbed down the VF Akira/Aoi reversals so anyone could do them made them universal, and added some speed).

EDIT: Unless I'm wrong, I think Okizeme was introduced in VF5, so that might be one thing. I'm not really sure how it works, but I haven't seen anything in vids of 5 resembling Tekken's oki game, so w/e.

[DaveNK]

You were lied to. Try playing VF. =P

BTW, that statement was only meant as a counter example. I'm well aware of how much companies tend to jock each other.

And Itagaki went far beyond taking just an idea or two and implementing it into his own engine. He took a whole engine (VF) and implemented 1 or 2 other ideas (he dumbed down the VF Akira/Aoi reversals so anyone could do them made them universal, and added some speed).

EDIT: Unless I'm wrong, I think Okizeme was introduced in VF5, so that might be one thing. I'm not really sure how it works, but I haven't seen anything in vids of 5 resembling Tekken's oki game, so w/e.

FTR.. I do play VF.

My point was made, I could care less on what DOA did... it's not like this isn't something that hasn't been seen, so I find inane to point it out on DOA as a fault when practically every fighter from various companies are guilty of.

BTW.. I registered to this forum specifically for VF:5 and the more recent 2D fighters

[Shadowcuz]

I honestly want to know if he has some kind of beef with someone at Namco or something.



I remember i read one of his interviews somewhere where he said that Namco made fun of DOA or something like that then he said "DOA is like my family, and nobody messes with my family" its not the exact quote but its close enough.



Edit: Ahh, found it

XBN: Still, youa??ve made some harsh comments in public about the games that pretty much founded the genre. Do you consider it normal practice to slag off your competitors?

Itagaki: Let me tell you the real story with that. Back when the original DOA came out, Namco aired a radio commercial -- they insulted my series. As the father of DOA, I will never forget an insult to my family. I will get them back with nuclear missiles more than 100 times for that. I will never forget it.

http://tokyopia.com/tk/archives/000116.php

[jae hoon]

I hope they insult it again, btw Itagaki Namco wants Christie back.

[Azagtoth]

My point was made, I could care less on what DOA did... it's not like this isn't something that hasn't been seen, so I find inane to point it out on DOA as a fault when practically every fighter from various companies are guilty of.

I understand what you're saying, but I do feel that DOA is guilty of it to a far worse degree than most.

[spudlyff8fan]

The relationships between high-ranking game industry people is pretty damn interesting. Like how Kojima and Itagaki are good pals (Kojima said that he would sign the Zone of Enders series over to Team Ninja, but Itagaki says he would do it better...::sniff::). And Kojima and Miyamoto are good pals (case and point: Snake in SSBB). And Miyamoto and Itagaki hate eachother. Not that this has to do with Namco...

@Jae: explain?

@Aza: That's lame, man. That's like complaining about how Sony "stole" the analog stick. You may as well just complain that they ripped off the idea of 3d fighting, and should've like....4d fighting.

[jae hoon]

Explain what, how they completely ripped off the Christie char in Tekken in DOA 4.

[ribu]

By having a character in a skirt?By Lisa being a girl?What? Seriously now.If you use the same style then there will be similarties.

DOA4 is IMO a decent fighter that you should consider trying.Unless your like the person who posted above me;then keeping an open mind when you play it and not going:Not Tekken or VF, fuck this.And saying it takes things from other games is just another excuse.Nearly everything has been done by now.As far as gameplay goes someone come up with ten orginal ideas for a FG that haven't been done before.

However I wouldn't just go out and buy a 360 just for DOA4 if your not sure about it.I've played it since DOA3 and have enjoyed it just as long.

[jae hoon]

No she is pretty much just a direct ripoff of Christie. Similar mannerims, similiar moves, similar style etc etc etc.

[ribu]

Once again they use the same style. Lisa uses Lucha Libre/Capoeira and Christie just uses Capoeira.I wouldn't put it past Itagaki that somethings were copied.However' Lisa was a character introduced in DOAX.As to how she acted in that I have no idea;as I never played DOAX.

[Azagtoth]

@Aza: That's lame, man. That's like complaining about how Sony "stole" the analog stick. You may as well just complain that they ripped off the idea of 3d fighting, and should've like....4d fighting.

Tekken did a pretty good job of making a 3d fighter that wasn't VF. Hell, even Toshinden did that as well.

Meanwhile, Itagaki apparently wanted to make his own VF, and so he has. Good for him.

BTW, please don't misunderstand. I'm not saying the game is bad because it plays like/shamelessly takes or borrows almost everything it has from VF. No. I'm saying Itagaki has no business saying that he's "actually developing his own fighting game, instead of just ripping a bunch of aspects out of other fighting games," as you put it.

As for whether or not the game is bad, personally, I just don't like the game. I don't care how viable it is or how deep it is at high level, I just don't care for it.

[spudlyff8fan]

Yeah, I don't think having similar movesets actually warrants calling them a ripoff. Mary from KOF, Bayman from DOA, and that russian guy from Tekken 5 all use Sambo. Hwaorang from Tekken, Kim/Jhun/May Lee/Chae Lim/Dong Hwan/Jae Hoon all use Thae Kwan do. Etc etc. All the characters in DOA4 and Tekkens use actual martial arts. If you're going to be saying that, you may as well say "Capcom called Namco, they want Elena back." Or "SNK called Sega, they want Chin back." My personal favorite: "Linda called Capcom. She wants her husband back." But yeah, cmon Jae. You're just looking for excuses to hate on DOA4 now.

Edit: Itagaki copied Christie? Wouldn't that mean that Namco copied SNK? Hell, Christie is just Richard Meyer with boobs and without a moustache. They're all black fighting characters who use a fighting style developed by escaped slaves.

[Shinto]

My ignorance is bless, DOA sucks ass.

[spudlyff8fan]

I think it's high time for S'ing tfu. We get it. You're a dumb troll. Your first post was fine. You may as well stick "post count +1" on the end of that.

[DaveNK]

Lisa in DOA uses Lucha Libre form of combat while Christie uses Capoeria (sp?)

Maybe it's just me but last I checked that's not a ripping of anything

Edit:

I understand what you're saying, but I do feel that DOA is guilty of it to a far worse degree than most. - Azagtoth

I think your being bit extreme about but whatever.

[spudlyff8fan]

I don't think you've seen or heard much of Capoeira. But she really, definitely uses capoeira. Her only Lucha-isms are the over-the-top throws. Her handstands and crazy kicks and constant music references are all capoeira.

[Shinto]

They have post counts on this site?

[spudlyff8fan]

First post earlier in the thread, I mean. Stop posting here. It makes you harder to ignore.

[hkrok76]

People hate DOA for not being like other fighting games, and people make fun of DOA for being like other fighting games. DOA just can't get a break, can it.

I'm not a high level fighting game player. I'm low to mid-level at best. From my limited knowledge, I can give you what I feel is the reason I like DOA.

The game is very intuitive. Overall mechanics are simple. This is where DOA gets it's bad rap. For some reason, fighting game fans hate games that are easy to pick up. If you can learn the moves in a few hours, than the game is for scrubs. Well, I can learn all the moves in DOA for a character in about half an hour to an hour. The hard part is putting them to use.

One of the biggest things about DOA is yomi. You have to read your opponent. Learn their tendencies, bait them as well. This makes the game insanely hard. Being beat by someone throwing out random counters doesn't mean the game suck. It means you as the player suck. The options are there, people need to play with them. Mixups are important in DOA, like in all good fighting games. The high, low, mid punch/mid kick mix up game is insanely important. This makes free-cancelling a very necessary skill in higher level play. Add in throwing and throw punishing. You have a lot of options against counter happy players. With the crush system, you also have some additional options against attacks.

A lot of the problems I read about DOA comes from people just not being able to play the game at a high enough level. People don't want to play it at a high enough level. The game focuses too much, gameplay wise, on things that most fighting game players aren't used to. Which means DOA is better for people who don't play other fighting games to get in to. That's another thing that fighting game players hate. New people play DOA. And beat them. Well, if you took some time to actually learn the game, than maybe they wouldn't beat you. I can generally stay undefeated against people less skilled than me at the game. While I can't touch people who are better than me. I think this makes the game not random. Right? Unless I have my definitions wrong.

Some of the anti-doa remarks that I've read are paraphrased below.
"I played the game for 2 weeks and was 2 spots away from top 8."
"All you need to do is counter."
"DOA sucks because Tekken is better."
"DOA sucks because it isn't VF."

Those are the basic arguments against DOA that I tend to find.

1. Well, good job in beating a couple of other people that only played the game a couple weeks and thought they'd make easy money in a tournament. If you noticed, all of the top 8 was won by people who are pretty much known on DOAC.

2. All you need to do is learn to play the game. If all you do is counter, you will lose against people who know what to do.

3. Because a game is better, does not make the other game bad. Ofcourse, I would differ in my opinion of which game is better.....

4. Itagaki chose to focus the gameplay on other things, and no, not the breasts. They are two different games, and should be enjoyed for different things.

Ok, I guess that was long, but anyway. I'd like to finish by saying that I think Lisa, if anything, is a rip off of Elena from third strike. Which isn't a bad thing.

She has the QCB+K, the DPB+K. Oh and Sean's F+Roundhouse. =D

[TrueSephiroth]

DoA4 I have to say does look to be a decent fighting game, because they have actually attempted to look into the fighting game engine of DoA4 and didn't they make patches for it as well? This to me is going down the right path, and on the whole rip-off thing, there is "wannabe's" almost everywhere, in how many fighting games was there with someone who had a Ryu/Ken persona, or relationship, or how many main characters sported the bandana like Ryu after the success of SF2. I see this in alot of places so it really can't be avoided, however DoA4 at least is heading down the right path, we can at least give it that much.

[Shibuya]

IMO being a Tekken DR fighter and a DOA player i would have to say that DOA4 can get just as competitive as tekken DR. If you really think about it they are very similar in theory. Tekken is all about learnin moves and tryin to counter moves and do combos off stuff. So is DOA. The only thing about DOA that falls short to tekken is that DOA combos are fairly easy compared to Tekkens. While both games can be very competitive.....some people are turned off by DOA for the fact that you can button mash to victory sometimes and the counter system...which makes it feel like you can just hit back and the guard button and you can just get in at least a few counters. That is what i experience playin on xbox live. I can really see if a person is good becomin and unpredictable machine with his moves and just destroyin everyone in site. I can also see a random brad wong user too....So try out DOA4 if anything its fun to play online

[Kyokuji]

I still haven't seen any credible gameplay arguments in favour of DoA. Everyone defending it, just seems to be saying: "It's a good game, give it a chance". Well, 'why' is it a good game? Don't list characters or presentation, or anything like that. We want in-depth, high end gameplay reasons.

[Shibuya]

I still haven't seen any credible gameplay arguments in favour of DoA. Everyone defending it, just seems to be saying: "It's a good game, give it a chance". Well, 'why' is it a good game? Don't list characters or presentation, or anything like that. We want in-depth, high end gameplay reasons.

....i just quoted some in my last post in this thread. Basically to be good in DOA4 is to be unpredictable....being unpredictable and add some good custom combos to ur moves then u can be a good player......also with any fighting game learnin ur opponent is key.

[Khiempossible]

You want the reason we all hate DOA? STUN

This is how the typical match goes:

players poke with 2P 5P 5PP 5PK 2K. When they see an opportunity they'll go for a stun.

One player gets stunned. Now he plays a retarded mixup game.

He can counter high/mid/low and try and get out.
He can guess wrong and get more stunned
He can guess wrong and get launched for 1/3 bar
He can can get thrown for 1/3 bar
He can get stunned a bunch of times for guessing wrong a bunch of times and get launched for 1/2 bar.
He can do nothing and not get thrown

Then he's on the ground. He now has 3 possibilities.


He can do nothing and eat a free pounce attack
He can get up and guard and be forced into the defensive again, potential for another stun go back to step 1.
He can wake up kick.

Your opponent can now reversal throw. This will beat get up and block and get up mid kick.
Your opponent can low crush the low kick for a free launcher or wakeup
Your opponent can do nothing and try and bait a whiff
Your opponent can pounce on you if you do nothing.


This is very very similar to VF. The difference? the mind games and options are spoon fed to you. And the risk/reward is nothing nothing close to balanced. Characters in VF have the best risk/reward ratios on the planet? Do you wanna do 40% of my bar? You gotta risk a knee.

In DOA4 all you gotta do is 2K someone on a slippery surface.

This is why I hate DOA4:

retarded spoon fed mixup game
retarded risk/reward ratio

[yimaxi]

You want the reason we all hate DOA? STUN

This is how the typical match goes:

players poke with 2P 5P 5PP 5PK 2K. When they see an opportunity they'll go for a stun.

One player gets stunned. Now he plays a retarded mixup game.

He can counter high/mid/low and try and get out.
He can guess wrong and get more stunned
He can guess wrong and get launched for 1/3 bar
He can can get thrown for 1/3 bar
He can get stunned a bunch of times for guessing wrong a bunch of times and get launched for 1/2 bar.
He can do nothing and not get thrown

Then he's on the ground. He now has 3 possibilities.


He can do nothing and eat a free pounce attack
He can get up and guard and be forced into the defensive again, potential for another stun go back to step 1.
He can wake up kick.

Your opponent can now reversal throw. This will beat get up and block and get up mid kick.
Your opponent can low crush the low kick for a free launcher or wakeup
Your opponent can do nothing and try and bait a whiff
Your opponent can pounce on you if you do nothing.


This is very very similar to VF. The difference? the mind games and options are spoon fed to you. And the risk/reward is nothing nothing close to balanced. Characters in VF have the best risk/reward ratios on the planet? Do you wanna do 40% of my bar? You gotta risk a knee.

In DOA4 all you gotta do is 2K someone on a slippery surface.

This is why I hate DOA4:

retarded spoon fed mixup game
retarded risk/reward ratio

That is exactly it. I have been played DOA for a few weeks on Live, and almost make it to Rank SS, but I just couldn’t play anymore due to the retard stun system and too many people turtle.

[spudlyff8fan]

I don't think you've played many matches (or maybe you just do too many Hayate mirror matches) if things typically progress like that, CMAN. But you also kinda forgot all the special wakeup moves that most of the characters have like Hayabusa's corkscrew thing, Bayman's scissor kick, Leon's tackle and the Ein and Hitomi jump-and-punch thing. And a stupid risk v reward? Hate to tell ya, but aside from the fact that every game is pivotal on risk-and-reward moves, good players don't really risk much. It's only stupid if you are bad enough to take stupid risks.

But really...you could run down a list of half of all the possible scenarios for every fighting game ever. Seriously.

[Shibuya]

You want the reason we all hate DOA? STUN

This is how the typical match goes:

players poke with 2P 5P 5PP 5PK 2K. When they see an opportunity they'll go for a stun.

One player gets stunned. Now he plays a retarded mixup game.

He can counter high/mid/low and try and get out.
He can guess wrong and get more stunned
He can guess wrong and get launched for 1/3 bar
He can can get thrown for 1/3 bar
He can get stunned a bunch of times for guessing wrong a bunch of times and get launched for 1/2 bar.
He can do nothing and not get thrown

Then he's on the ground. He now has 3 possibilities.


He can do nothing and eat a free pounce attack
He can get up and guard and be forced into the defensive again, potential for another stun go back to step 1.
He can wake up kick.

Your opponent can now reversal throw. This will beat get up and block and get up mid kick.
Your opponent can low crush the low kick for a free launcher or wakeup
Your opponent can do nothing and try and bait a whiff
Your opponent can pounce on you if you do nothing.


This is very very similar to VF. The difference? the mind games and options are spoon fed to you. And the risk/reward is nothing nothing close to balanced. Characters in VF have the best risk/reward ratios on the planet? Do you wanna do 40% of my bar? You gotta risk a knee.

In DOA4 all you gotta do is 2K someone on a slippery surface.

This is why I hate DOA4:

retarded spoon fed mixup game
retarded risk/reward ratio

HA HA HA.....yeah you are right......the stun does suck and after u get out of the stun it seems like half ur life is gone or if you on a stage that has effects when u hit the wall even more......and when u are down it is true u can kick and they have a 50/50 choice of countering.......but even then......if you are good u can predict moves to try to counter out of the combos...

[Shinto]

Stun = Dumb, as mentioned, once in stun the game just turn boring.......that or fighting Brad Wong:confused:

And why do the damage seems so off?

[spudlyff8fan]

Stun = Dumb, as mentioned, once in stun the game just turn boring.......that or fighting Brad Wong:confused:

And why do the damage seems so off?

You haven't even played the game, you offer no valuable insight into the game and have no idea what you're talking about. Really, stfu. At least Jae Hoon has actually played the game, and has enough insight into the game to actually point out possible flaws. You probably haven't even actually SEEN the game, never mind played it. You're no better than a Smash player bitching about parries in 3S.

[ribu]

At th risk of insulting someone who's actually good at the game,but can not in anyway sahpe or form explain it on this site;I will politely ask Spudley to just stop talking.

Next to anyone that comes with the arguement:"I played online awhile and didn't like it."There are about 3 general ways to discredit this example of DOA's lack of skill.
1)You think your good,but all you do is play in lag that can seriously alter the way the game plays.
2)Playing online even with the best connection you think you've got your still lagging.You're restricted from ever playing the game to it's fullest online.Especially me; because I've got some shit lag.
3)Playing online all you think the game is is stunning and random countering.

Unless you never do anything but attack;with no defense at all;then you shouldn't be getting stunned as much as you say you do. It seems everyone's playing a DOA game were you automatically just get stunned at the start of the match and can't ever get out.That game would suck,but however that's not the case.

Ex:Kasumi is basically the fastest character in the game overall.Yet to counter this she is very unsafe.Now if at the start of the match you do try to rush her then yes you will most likely get stunned.However;playing smart and defensively and waiting for an unsafe move,string,or going for an OH before she actually attacks;inside of just mashing.And hell some characters don't even have that long of a stun window.Like the Spartan.

Eh just a few things I can think of while half my body is numb.

[Azagtoth]

BTW, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but environmental damage is fucking stupid IMO, and level elevation isn't that great of a mechanic either. I'm relatively sure there's a pretty good reason why elevation was taken out of VF and Tekken.

EDIT: I think someone mentioned it regarding Tekken 4.

[yimaxi]

At th risk of insulting someone who's actually good at the game,but can not in anyway sahpe or form explain it on this site;I will politely ask Spudley to just stop talking.

Next to anyone that comes with the arguement:"I played online awhile and didn't like it."There are about 3 general ways to discredit this example of DOA's lack of skill.
1)You think your good,but all you do is play in lag that can seriously alter the way the game plays.
2)Playing online even with the best connection you think you've got your still lagging.You're restricted from ever playing the game to it's fullest online.Especially me; because I've got some shit lag.
3)Playing online all you think the game is is stunning and random countering.

Unless you never do anything but attack;with no defense at all;then you shouldn't be getting stunned as much as you say you do. It seems everyone's playing a DOA game were you automatically just get stunned at the start of the match and can't ever get out.That game would suck,but however that's not the case.

Ex:Kasumi is basically the fastest character in the game overall.Yet to counter this she is very unsafe.Now if at the start of the match you do try to rush her then yes you will most likely get stunned.However;playing smart and defensively and waiting for an unsafe move,string,or going for an OH before she actually attacks;inside of just mashing.And hell some characters don't even have that long of a stun window.Like the Spartan.

Eh just a few things I can think of while half my body is numb.

Yeah, that is what happen most of the time. the best way to avoid stun is to turtle, so that when the other guy missed an attack, you can stun him instead.

This kind gameplay is hardly any fun.

[hkrok76]

These are your opinions, not reasons that the game sucks. Environmental play is fun, and can be used strategically if the players are good. The stun game is something to learn and incorporate into your play. If you get stunned, it is your fault. The risk and reward is hardly that much different from other games. You low short on Ken in third strike only to have it block and then eat Ken's SA3. That's pretty retarded. But it's not something people can't deal with. Everything in DOA4 can be dealt with. If you can't deal with it, maybe it isn't the fault of the game.

I like the focus away from input skill to play skill. Where the moves are easy to do, so you concentrate on using the moves instead of doing the moves. The rock scissor paper set up of the game is also something I enjoy playing with. There's a reason people still play RSP, it's simple but enjoyable, and can also allow for really good reading of people. DOA is also the same way. The best players can force others to do things, or not do things, and also read the opponent well enough to out play them. DOA4 is almost entirely mental skill at higher levels. Now no one is really arguing that at low to mid level play the game can be really random, but it is much more than that at higher levels.

*editted*

[Azagtoth]

These are opinions, not reasons that the game sucks. Environmental play is fun, and can be used strategically if the players are good. The stun game is something to learn and incorporate into your play. If you get stunned, it is your fault. The risk and reward is hardly that much different from other games. You low short on Ken in third strike only to have it block and then eat Ken's SA3. That's pretty retarded. But it's not something people can't deal with. Everything in DOA4 can be dealt with. If you can't deal with it, maybe it isn't the fault of the game.

Wait. A blocked low short against Ken = automatic SA3? (unless of course, you meant "parry," and as you guys seem to like to say regarding system rules, "if it happens, it's your fault" =P) That's not retarded, that's him doing a random super after coming out of hitstun, which you can still block or parry. The damage isn't even that good; if anything, you should be using Chun as your example of retarded risk/reward, but it's not like her cr.mk can't be parried anyway.

Also, environmental damage = random factor. They only play one (I think two) stages in high level SSBM and thats solely because all the rest of the stages have that same random factor. Your opponent doesn't really need to be skilled for the environment to randomly hit you with something stupid (IE a car or cheetah assist). It's arbitrary and doesn't add to the game competitively.

BTW, your statement "environmental play is fun" is also an opinion.

Seriously guys, we've, on occasion, had high level DOA players come in and defend their game to people here, and even that didn't really change anyone's opinion of where the game stands competitively. If they can't convince us it's a decent game, I don't think anyone can, and besides, we're free to our own opinion, aren't we?

[Shadowcuz]

You low short on Ken in third strike only to have it block and then eat Ken's SA3. That's pretty retarded. But it's not something people can't deal with. Everything in DOA4 can be dealt with. If you can't deal with it, maybe it isn't the fault of the game.


what?:confused:

[hkrok76]

Sorry, sorry. I meant it was your opinion. And then I followed up with my opinion. People said give reasons that the game doesn't suck, and I gave my reasons. The game has plenty of depth. All the retarded scrubby tactics can be dealt with. You just have to be good at DOA. You have to know how to deal with the scrub tactics. Which moves can you punish with which moves. If they abuse a move, can you bait them to do that move and get them with a counter, or a crush. These are my reasons for liking the game. Someone said that people need to come in here and tell them why it's a good game. Our opinions differ on what makes a game good. That's where the rift comes from. I think DOA can be DOA and still be good, while others want DOA to play like everything else. That's cool. These are opinions and we're all welcome to them. Enjoy yourselves with whatever you play is what believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPzgDIlk3HU

[Khiempossible]

Let me put it this way, I'd rather be waking up in the corner in T5.0 than get stunned in DOA4. That's how lopsided and retarded being stunned is.

[thedahmerkid]

Also, environmental damage = random factor. They only play one (I think two) stages in high level SSBM and thats solely because all the rest of the stages have that same random factor. Your opponent doesn't really need to be skilled for the environment to randomly hit you with something stupid (IE a car or cheetah assist). It's arbitrary and doesn't add to the game competitively.


I'm sorry, but I fail to understand how environmental damage, other than maybe the cheetah, is random. Walls are where they are, if you play the stage, you know where the walls are. Cars in Vegas, the camera shifts to show you they are coming, you either run out of the way our do a m.kick counter to jump over it. The cheetah, while maybe harder to see coming, only runs thru a certain area so you should have at least an idea of when it is coming. Is wall damage random in VF??

I've seen a few of the haters talk about how DOA4 will never be played competatively, but most people who enjoy DOA4 don't argue it should be played competatively. The argument is simply whether it is a good game, worthy of being played. If you don't wanna play DOA4 that's cool, but why do you have to make everyone else believe that the game sucks??? By defending the game, we aren't necessarily saying it's good, but restoring it to it's natural neutral position of not being a good or a bad game, or being a good AND a bad game, as most games are. Just kidding. But IMO DOA4 is a really FUN game.

How many arguments can be made to support your opinion when your opinion doesn't mean anything anyway????

[Kusanagi02]

To be honest at the end of the day DOA 4 or the series will probably never get the respect it deserves. And its not the games fault, its Itigachi fault.
I understand the man is cocky and talks alot of smack but when he sits there and literally makes it seem as though the Tekken series hasn't brought anything new to the table...i have to sit back and chuckle at how stupid this guy is.

Another thing, why is everyone still hard pressed on having 3d fighters online these days?

[DavDz]

I hate to be off topic, but wasn't Tekken 4 made by the same people [or something] by the same guys that did Erghiez or atleast those guys helped in making the game?

I could be wrong though

[Azagtoth]

-snip-

I'm not talking about wall damage, which is the 3D equivalent to being hit by a corner combo in 2D, and is not random at all (although environmental damage was probably the wrong term for it anyway). I'm talking purely about random shit that runs into you for like no reason at all (IE it's arbitrary; again, in SSMB tournaments, they are limited to the two stages that are completely free of the arbitrary stuff with items off because otherwise it isn't considered competitively viable). I don't mind getting knocked off of a cliff or anything because it's just the lesser cousin of the ring out, but getting hit by a cheetah because the camera wasn't placed the right way and I couldn't see it coming... yeah, not to mention when you're in the heat of a serious mixup, you don't exactly have all the time in the world to move around and avoid stupid environmental shit.

EDIT: Cheetah assist = free juggle for the opponent IIRC. I know it's only one little factor of the game that can easily be fixed by simply not playing that stage, but just the thought of it is kinda funny.

Also, don't forget where you are. "Good game" generally translates to "good competitive game" here, and the general consensus is that it isn't that competitively viable and/or worth playing, and a lot of it in reality comes from the fact that the game has little to no learning curve. Most of the people who are arguing here are arguing for it to be accepted as a viable competitive game (hence the high level players coming around every so often to argue). Either way, I don't care. I still play games that aren't considered competitively viable just for shits and giggles, but I'm just not a fan of DOA, and just like you, we DOA haters are entitled to our own opinion.

Oh, and what makes your opinion that much more meaningful than mine? Last I checked, you don't have to play the game extensively to have the right to say "I don't like it." Hell, it doesn't even have to be educated or have reason. That's the nature of opinion; that which makes a game good or bad is purely aesthetic. I'm not even really out to change anyone's opinion, I'm just expressing mine, as well as the fact that I do tend to agree with the other haters.

Kusanagi02: Because fighting games are very frame dependant and the game changes drastically online as a result, especially when you consider a game like VF.

DavDz: Ehrgeiz was published by Namco and developed by the people who made the Tobal games, IIRC.

[cygnus]

Another thing, why is everyone still hard pressed on having 3d fighters online these days?
For VF, you would not be able to fuzzy guard online, and that would break the game.

[Kusanagi02]

For VF, you would not be able to fuzzy guard online, and that would break the game.

I definitely understand that its just that alot of gaming magazines and websites seem "butt hurt" that VF5 and even Tekken 6 won't be online.
Its just that i don't get why they don't realize that lag plays a big factor with those two games.

[hkrok76]

Online play is something that's needed for fighters to survive in the current gaming climate. The mainstream public doesn't want to go to someone's house, or an arcade, every time they want to play a game. Online play brings a bit of the arcade, the bit with playing other people, home. It isn't as good as playing it offline, but it is an option that people like. I can't stand lag, but I will play it because even with the lag, the game is still fun.

Lag does play a big factor, but it's something that can be ignored when in casual play. The hardcore players will be there for VF5 and tekken 6 offline, but where's the support for the casual players? That''s what gaming mags and websites wonder about. Fighting games are a dying breed, but to intentionally hold themselves back is what people are confused about. That's what I think the whole deal about online play is.

Back on topic though, DOA can be played competively. It deserves to be played competively. And no learning curve? DOA has the most f***ed up learning curve for any fighting game I've ever played. It's easy to get into and to "learn all the moves" and then play other people. It's pretty easy to get to a good mid-level skill wise in the game too. It is insanely difficult to get to really high level in the game, though. So hard that I don't think a lot of current players are probably at that level. To be at a level where you can win consistently, you'd have to be pretty darn good at the game. It isn't random, for all the options a scrub has with randomly throwing out counters, a good player has a dozen more options to punish him with. Stuns are part of the game, learn to play with them, and learn to use them. Air juggles are important, but not broken since I have never seen anyone get killed in an infinite air juggle in the game. The environment is there for you to use. The cheetah....runs through the middle of the field. Avoid it, or lead your opponent to the cheetah's path. It's one straight line you're dealing with. It isn't as random as you think. The cars in Las vegas, they can be jumped over, and also used to your advantage. Use the environment with all it's "random" occurrences to your advantage. You can do it, and it's fun to learn to do it. DOA4 is a good game, so was DOA1, DOA2, and DOA3. It's a good series that deserves a bit of credit from the other "competitive communities."

[Xero Kaiser]

I definitely understand that its just that alot of gaming magazines and websites seem "butt hurt" that VF5 and even Tekken 6 won't be online.
Its just that i don't get why they don't realize that lag plays a big factor with those two games.

So what, lag only matters in VF or Tekken? It's a big factor in nearly every online game, but you deal with it and you move on. We're not using these games to vote for the next president or determine the champion of the universe. People will gladly put up with the occasional shitty match if it means having actual people to play against. That's why people play online in the first place

It's not like offline play, tourneys or arcades will magically disappear with an online mode. You can have both and make everybody happy, so why hold yourself back ignoring what people are asking for, then sit here, complaining that "nobody plays fighters anymore" "the scene is dead" blah blah blah? Like everyone is willing (or even able) to travel across the state/country to find a decent game of Tekken...

[TrueSephiroth]

No offense hkrok, but Doa1,2, and 3 where just downright horrible in the game engine department, there is no shining or cleaning that could ever rinse this off. DoA4 is the only one within the series that has shown improvement, reasons why I say DoA4>the rest of the DoA's, because it is at least going down the right direction.

[Keylay]

Counters are 10 frames in DoA4, and they don't do near as much damage as in DoA2.

10 frames?! Unless the frame data that is online is incorrect, they are still 22 frames. I wish they were 10 frames. That is something everyone wanted and thought they got. IGN said in their review that they were reduced to 11 or 12 but the truth is that the game was sped up so it seemed like the counter window wasn't so big. And counters still do too much damage. They should make counters do the same damage as in DOA3.

[jae hoon]

So which one is it, I have seen things that say its 10 and 20 frames. Honestly either is huge but 20 is astronomical.

[caliagent#3]

No offense hkrok, but Doa1,2, and 3 where just downright horrible in the game engine department, there is no shining or cleaning that could ever rinse this off. DoA4 is the only one within the series that has shown improvement, reasons why I say DoA4>the rest of the DoA's, because it is at least going down the right direction.

Doa++ > Doa4. Doa++ was a step in the right direction

[spudlyff8fan]

And counters still do too much damage. They should make counters do the same damage as in DOA3.

That would totally rape any balance the game has. Granted, I wouldn't mind seeing Hayabusa's Izuna Drop removed from his counters, but having all counters do the same damage would be stupid.

And yeah. Smaller counter windows would be nice.

[thedahmerkid]

I'm not going to argue for or against DOA4 as a game worthy of tournament play. I will say that there is a massive gap between high level and low level play. Mashing will not get you anywhere against an experienced player, it will get you punished repeatedly.

Now, I have to ask, to all the people that argue against DOA4 as a competative game: Is there anything in the game that is broken? Does anyone know of any infinites? Any 100% combos? Any unblockable techniques?

I honestly don't know the answer to those questions, but I haven't seen or heard anything along the lines of that kind of brokenness. And if the game isn't broken, why isn't it considered a good competative game? I understand why people don't like the game, but why ban it from high level competative play?

It's not like this is Golden Axe: The Duel or WarGods or BioFREAKS. DOA4 is a legit fighting game, regardless of whatever crap has spewed from Itagaki's mouth regarding it or Tekken. Sure he says stupid things, but is Ninja Gaiden not one of the dopest games of the last generation?? He obviously doesn't suck at making games.

[polarity]

Now, I have to ask, to all the people that argue against DOA4 as a competative game: Is there anything in the game that is broken? Does anyone know of any infinites? Any 100% combos? Any unblockable techniques?

Just because a game isn't broken doesn't mean it's a good competitive game.

Just because a game is broken, doesn't mean it's a bad competitive game, for that matter.

[ribu]

Counters are 22 frames in DOA4.IMO I wish counters were as strong in 3.1.Can't remember how strong they are in 3.0 since I haven't played that in years,but that game had balance in all counters.Max for grapplers were around 78 damage where as in DOA4 when not in a stun they can do 90.Busa's Izuna Drop counter in 4 can do do 98 on High counter without being in a stun.Now he could do around the same in other DOAs,but that was with an actual juggle coming from the Izuna's first part and launching them in the air.

Also yes DOA++ is a beast of a game.To bad it doesn't exist on earth anymore.Yep. . .Right.

Dahmer:There are no infinites in DOA4,closest thing to broken is Busa,but that's just a matter of opinion.And that's by a long shot at comparing him to broken characters.

[spudlyff8fan]

I don't think the counters should be strong for all characters. Bass and Christie should not be doing the same amount of damage for a counter. Kasumi and Ayane should not be doing the same damage as Bayman for counters.

And yeah, the Evo results in DOA4 seem to suggest that lotsa the characters are useful at high-level play (since Hayate, Hayabusa, Kasumi, Ayane, Bayman, Gen Fu, Spartan 458, Lei Fang, Zack, Hitomi and Helena were all up there), so saying that counters do too much damage just doesn't seem to be true.

[The Granby]

That would totally rape any balance the game has. Granted, I wouldn't mind seeing Hayabusa's Izuna Drop removed from his counters, but having all counters do the same damage would be stupid.

And yeah. Smaller counter windows would be nice.

wtf no, play doa1/doa++. Holds all did the same dmg and it was a good idea too cause in that game holds did shit dmg which THEY SHOULD BE DOING NOW BUT ITAGAKI IS GAY LIKE THAT.

And smaller hold windows would not be "nice" they would be "omfg about time". Itagaki promised reduced windows, SS, useful guardbreaks, and so much when doa4 was annouced and none of that was delivered. The XO5 build looks a bagillion times more interesting than current play.

As for those bitching about proof of weither this game can be played competitively the answer is YES it can.... is it good/interesting/fun to be played competitively... well that's up for argument. DoAC is finally starting to put up more match vids so you can sort of see what the high level is all about. I don't randomly hate on this game like some of the guys in this thread but I'll will most definately admit some major flaws about doa4, one of which has already been addressed being the stun system. However this game does require skill to be competitive and stay at the top. But if it ain't your cup of tea that's completely understandable.

[ribu]

I don't think the counters should be strong for all characters. Bass and Christie should not be doing the same amount of damage for a counter. Kasumi and Ayane should not be doing the same damage as Bayman for counters.


Umm your an idiot .Bayman does the second most counter damage in the game;next to Lei-Fang's advance holds.Kasumi,Christie,and Ayane have the weakest counters in the game.

Side note:From what I've heard from people Itagki changed DOA4 when some asian(forget which country)played the X05 build and told him the game was broken!? Or something stupid like that.

[spudlyff8fan]

Reread what was said, Ribu. I said that they SHOULD NOT DO THE SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE, because somebody said that the counters should be equally strong for everyone.

[The Granby]

Side note:From what I've heard from people Itagki changed DOA4 when some asian(forget which country)played the X05 build and told him the game was broken!? Or something stupid like that.



WOW, someone needs to find that asian guy and stab him in the neck.

[Khiempossible]

I'm going to stress it again if stuns were removed the game would be playable.

If they made 8 way run/step useful it would also see more play.

I would like to see how much counters were used in a DOA without stun. Probably as much as you see in Tekken. Which is pretty much never.

[roninwarrior24]

Isn't Gen Fu top tier mostly because of stuns? I read a bit on DOAC that pretty much any attack=stun=guessing game=attack=more stun=you get the pattern. Correct me if I'm wrong about anything, though.

Without stuns, the "guessing game" would be weirder/maybe better. Also Gen Fu may not be as top tier anymore. I might be wrong, though.

[caliagent#3]

I'm going to stress it again if stuns were removed the game would be playable.

If they made 8 way run/step useful it would also see more play.

I would like to see how much counters were used in a DOA without stun. Probably as much as you see in Tekken. Which is pretty much never.

Stuns shouldn't be removed. They just aren't implemented properly. The different stuns could be worked into the game with a proper frame advantage/counter system.

[Khiempossible]

you mean how like GI worked in SC/SC2?

wait nobody likes that game either....

regardless that game was still considered tournament worthy by the majority of the FG community.

The thing about stun is that you're forced to play another mixup game. When I get hitstun in any other game I want either a mixup game in my favor OR guaranteed damage. And I want to know when is when.

DOA puts the two together and it's stupid. Nobody wants to play a mixup game twice just to land guaranteed damage.

Nobody wants a mixup game that's played entirely too often that's spoon fed to them. I compare it to wakeup in T5, which is in fact very similar. But in T5 you play that game once a round max, and the risk/rewards are (generally) pretty balanced.

[virtuapai]

c

-1.There are 3 levels of stuns in the game, Light, Medium and heavy. Both Light and Medium can be Slowed Escaped(stagger escape, struggling..etc). That is over 85% of the stuns in the game. Slow escaping(SE) elliminates the need to hold out of the stun, and allow you to escape the stun and not deal with the "stun game". Instead, you are at minor disadvantage. Now you have more options opened up to you. You can attack, throw, move about...etc. This force your opponent to do alot more than throw/attack..ie 50/50's. There are even stuns that Leave the stunner at a disadvantage if the stunned player SE.

-2. The other 15% of the stuns are true stuns. These are stuns that cannot be SE and the player is forced to guess(heavy stuns and Crumples). With heavy stuns, you have your 50/50's, But with Crumples, the advantage is 99% in your court, unless you fuckit up. There are also stun Crushing. This is when you step to your opponents back, forcing your opponent to make a choice(once again, all in your favor). Once you step to your opponents back, you get a guaranteed back turned combo(cannot block and hold when BT). Their only option is to hold, and that is a free throw for you.

-3. There is also the act of just frame holding. This allow you to recover soon as the innitial stun frames end. With this, you can recovery while your opponent is recovering from his stunning attack. And often times giving you the frame advantage(depending on the recovery of your opponents attack). So if your opponent tries to attack, your attack will beat theirs. This pretty much reverses the mixup on your opponent. However, the escapee is still vulnerable to throws. So its most effective when your opponent like to attack during the "stun game".

All of this keeps the stun game from being the same conjecture over and over again. The above require players to know more about the stuns they use, which moves are most effective with said stun, and what disadvantages/advantages they will have when stunning their opponent.

You can find the stun break down Here (http://www.doacentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8140)

[TrunksSS3]

spudlyff8fan not you again with the same sh*t..


if u want a button mash feast go ahead and get DOA4

[caliagent#3]

you mean how like GI worked in SC/SC2?

wait nobody likes that game either....

regardless that game was still considered tournament worthy by the majority of the FG community.

The thing about stun is that you're forced to play another mixup game. When I get hitstun in any other game I want either a mixup game in my favor OR guaranteed damage. And I want to know when is when.

DOA puts the two together and it's stupid. Nobody wants to play a mixup game twice just to land guaranteed damage.

Nobody wants a mixup game that's played entirely too often that's spoon fed to them. I compare it to wakeup in T5, which is in fact very similar. But in T5 you play that game once a round max, and the risk/rewards are (generally) pretty balanced.

No. what i was thinking was that you eliminate countering out of stun and make the counter window 0/6/25 for high/mid and 0/6/30 for low. You'd have the normal hitstun/advantage/disadvantage mind game present in all the other decent fighters out today. Counter hits reward you with the different types of stun from minor to major, depending on how you scored the counter hit. For example a whiffed counter would give a different stun than counter hitting someone out of a normal jab etc.