Sim thread

[Jorant]

Can someone help me with Sim? I know nothing about him. What makes him so damned top tier? I know his grab range is sick, and he's got some nice sliding noogie traps. What moves should I use a lot, what ones are total garbage I should stay away from, if there's such a thing? Little help from some Sim masters?

[Kyokuji]

General stuff

First off, remember that his limbs are controllable in ST. You can hold back to get the close versions of any of his normals.

In terms of fireball zoning, you'll mostly be wanting to use LP yoga fires (with some exceptions) as they give you plenty of time to stuff whatever they try afterwards and they'll hit jumping characters with large hit boxes. The occasional FP/MP fireball can be used to mess them up or to hit them on wake-up. Yoga flames are generally lousy anti-air, you just end up getting nailed most of the time.

Close up, c. MK and c. MP are usually your best friends. You can use slides to cross-up people jumping in close-up, or from farther away just to keep them from advancing on you. They'll also go under fireballs and stuff like Balrog's dash punches.

s. RH is good for early long distance anti-air. Also for punishing stuff like missed sumo stomps or boxer headbutts as long as you time it right. s. MK for stuff closer up or for people whose jump arcs go past s. RH.
s. LK for situations closer up where s. MK doesn't work right. Back LK is good as a late close-up anti-air, as is his Back LP, which has godly priority, and can also be used to stuff certain cross-up attempts and things like Vega's dive. Back MP is good for stuff that Back+LP won't touch and also again for stopping cross-ups.

You can use low LK drills to go over fireballs (your best friend against O. Sagat), and nail them once (don't try to follow-up, you'll get stuffed or reversed). Close-up, a mix of RH and MK drills is good for pressuring, and in the corner, you can mix close crouching attacks with low drills and the occasional spear for keeping them from jumping. Well timed/spaced drills will also beat stuff like bison's psycho crusher. Low RH/MK drills are also good for safely advancing on your opponent, or moving around in general since 'Sim's walk/jump speeds are both lousy. When you do drill at someone, try to do it so you hit their feet, otherwise it's very easily punished. They can also be used as a psyche out tool to get someone to jump, whiff something or back off.

His s. MP can be used to stuff a surprising number of moves. s. FP can be used as a late anti-air of sorts and to punish all sorts of moves. Yoga flames are good for pressure, and the occasional yoga blast for anti-air against high jumpers like Chun' or Vega. If you get a knockdown in the corner and they have a large enough hit box, you can often LP yoga flame them to death as long as you're far back enough.

I haven't found much use for his back RH.
s. LP has great priority and can be used to stop pokes. Jump back FP can be good for punishing jump-ins or moves that are normally difficult or impossible to counter like Vega's dive if he's farther away, and jumping straight up with MK can stop Blanka's jump-in among other things. I've seen people use jump back LP instead on occasion as well (maybe because it stays out longer?). Jumping forward with RH can also stop Vega players from getting onto the wall in the first place, just watch out for the bait and switch with the other wall move.

c. MP is probably your best poke for pressuring or pushing someone back. It's got great range and priority and it's cancel-able. Generally, if you want to get someone away from you, you can do something like close c. MK, close, c. MP, c.MP, s. FP/Yoga fire. If they jump-in and you can't nail them out of the air, and you're somewhat far away, just c. MP them as they land then push them back with a fireball or s. MP/FP.

Teleporting

His teleport I mainly reserve for getting out of the corner, because it's not a good spot for 'Sim, especially against someone like Honda. It can glitch on occasion and teleport you into the same spot, which is a serious problem that is unfortunately unavoidable for the most part. 'Porting to the same spot can be good as a psyche out on occasion. You can also use the 'port to avoid chip damage on wake-up provided you can get it out in time.

Combos

The only combos you'll probably be using are c. MK/MP > Yoga fire/flame and LK/MK slide > Yoga fire/flame/super. You can also combo a c. MK from a late RH drill.

Noogie

You can cross-up Chun' or Vega after a noogie (very helpful since those are your worst match-ups), by using a properly timed c. MK and then follow up with db. MK x2 and whatever for the dizzy.

Other noogie follow-ups include: Walk forward, close c. MK, and then a series of pokes, walk forward c. MK > yoga fire, low RH drill > Throw, LK Slide > Throw, yoga flame, super.

Dizzies

If you do dizzy someone. The best thing to do is usually just LK drill after them and then throw them since you usually won't have time for anything else, and there's not much else you can do anyway. It's good to remember that if you throw them and their life is low enough that they would've died if they didn't tech, they'll take full damage from the throw regardless.
I also see people do Yoga Flame > LK Yoga Blast > LP Yoga Flame to build meter instead on occasion.

First 3 seconds

The opening moments of a match can be very important for 'Sim. If you get off to a bad start, it can often be very difficult to recover against someone like Boxer.
Most people usually jump back and then wait to see what the opponent does. If they try something, stuff it and if they don't, you can just land and you're at a better starting distance.

The main thing to remember with 'Sim is to control the space. Zoning =/= turtling. Use drills to move around and try to find the optimal zoning distance for each character and then try to keep them there. If things get desperate, you can always try to drill/throw them death.
He also has one of the best supers in the game. It does great chip, goes through a ton of shit, and will beat just about anything on wake-up.
His main weakness is his lack of a reversal. As one of the only characters in the game without one, getting knocked down = bad. You can teleport, but that's not reliable in the corner.

He may be top tier, but he's far from being a brain dead character (most of the time anyway). All his match-ups play very differently, and a single knock-down can often spell disaster for him.

Specific match-ups:

VS 'Gief - Probably the easiest match for 'Sim. This is close to a free win, depending on whether you can keep him at arms length (Dhalsim arms). Stick with yoga fires and s. MP/FP to keep pushing him back. If he lariats, it's a free FP for you. Be careful RHing or MKing him, since a lariat will beat it and knock you down, which could get you into big trouble. Watch out for the occasional banishing fist (green hand) past one of your fireballs. Keep in mind that his s. RH will beat your RH/MK and his c. LP will beat your c. MP.
His c. RH can also beat a lot of your pokes as well if timed properly.

VS Honda - A surprisingly difficult match. Don't let him get in, because you're likely fucked if he does. He'll cross you up/tick/command throw you until you're done.
Back LP and db. LP will stuff his headbutts and if he sumo stomps, jump up backwards with him and knock him out of the air or b. MP. s. RH can also punish it with proper spacing/timing but I wouldn't recommend it. Use close normals if he does it closer up.
His jumping RH has surprisingly priority and it tends to trade with your s. MK so be ready with your close anti-airs. If he empty jumps or manages to land safe from a stomp, push him back with s. MP/FP. Watch out for headbutts, be patient, and remember to block HHS' low.
One knockdown can mean death for you in this match, and whatever you do, don't let him get you in the corner, or it's command throw hell for you. The flame trap can however, be your best friend if you manage to knock him down in the corner instead, since he has such a large hitbox.

VS Chun' - Probably your worst match-up next to claw. Her jumping MK stuffs everything you have, but will sometimes trade with back MP. The only real way to beat it is to do jump back FP (you have to be above her for it to hit), or early jump back RH as a precaution (this will probably trade if you do it too late). Jump back MK drill is also decent anti-air as long as you're above her when you do it. Don't try drilling over her fireballs too often. They move slow enough to hit you most of the time. Learning to slide under her fireballs consistently will help you out a lot since it puts you in a position to back MP under her jump MK or s. RH her jump-in attempt in advance.

If she lightning kicks from afar, spear over it or use s. MK. You can use RH at the proper distance to keep her from jumping, but once she's in the air, it's her game more or less. Low RH drills can be very effective on her, just watch out for the occasional reversal.

It can be hard to stop her jab/MP pressure. If she does manage to throw you, and you reverse, you can use standing MP as an option select (if she tries to counter throw, you throw her, if she tries to flip kick out, you hit her with back MP or if it misses, you still have time to block)

VS Blanka - You get a free FP off every missed or even successful roll attempt. You can use jumping MK to stuff his jump-ins (just watch for rolls) and a slide if you don't see it coming early enough. It's risky though, try to slide so you land behind him instead. That way you don't get nailed by a late jump FP or cross-up LK. Don't let him fluster you with jump-in pressure.

VS T. Hawk - s. RH any blocked dive attempts or jump-ins and otherwise zone him as normal. If he tries to dive short and tick-throw you, just throw him instead. Keep in mind that unlike 'Gief, he has a DP that will knock you out of your standing/crouching pokes. This match-up is painfully unfair. b. LP literally beats everything he has. Dives, his DP, you name it.

VS Claw - Likely your toughest match-up. One knockdown can again mean serious trouble for you, because he'll start his ambiguos dive cross-up crap. Use jump back FP, back LP and yoga blasts to stuff dives (watch out for baits) and drill/tick throw his ass to death if you get a chance. If you're advancing and he's retreating, you may want to jump forward with RH to stop him from getting onto the wall. Some of your normals will go under/through his horizontal wall dive.

VS Boxer - Slides and c./s. MP are you friends here. RH to stop headbutts and far jump-ins, and MK for occasional closer-up one. If he manages to corner you, be patient. Otherwise you'll probably get nailed with a headbutt. Teleport out as soon as you can and keep poking with c. MK when you get a chance. MP yoga fires are your friends here since if you trade, it'll knock him down so you're not stuck blocking his crazy rushdown. Watch your fireballs once he has meter just like you would with Ryu.

VS Dictator - Back LP to stuff reverse devil punches after a headstomp. It also beats his psycho crusher/knee clean. Yoga blasts can stop his headstomp, but you can easily get baited into eating a psycho crusher doing that. He's very susceptible to drill pressure since he has lousy anti-air, but watch out for s. FP when drilling from afar.

VS O. Sagat - Be patient in this match-up and it's in your favour. Low LK drills will go over his low tiger shots. His jumping RH can be stuffed by back LK or a slide. s. FP to punish any missed tiger uppercuts. Watch out for the occasional tiger knee, and remember his s. LK hits low and is combo-able. Be patient and use slides/RH/MK drills to move past his tiger shots. You can probably fireball war with him for a while before he beats you out, so you can use this to stall or build meter if necessary.

VS Ryu - Relatively easy match-up for you until he gets meter. LK drill over his fireballs, use RH to stuff his jump-ins. Watch out for the occasional air hurricane, and throw him as he lands. Be careful poking better players, as they can easily DP your limbs if you get predictable. Hurricane kicks will over your fireballs as well. You can punish missed hurricanes by blocking one hit, ducking to get out of block stun and then headbutting him before the next hit. Try to stay within range of being able to RH him when he tries to fireball. When he has meter, cool your projectile throwing and play carefully until he blows his meter. Try to bait him in to using his super without using moves that leave yourself too open.

VS O. Ken - Fast, invincible DP's are a pain in the ass. Don't get baited into trying to punish repeated LP DP's. If you're going to punish one, be very careful with your timing. Too early or too late = you getting knocked down. Patience is the key.

VS Guile - You're gonna want to keep trying to c. LP/MP him under his sonic booms then block right after. Drilling over his sonic booms is dangerous since he'll probably just flash kick you, and his jump-in goes right over 'Sim's s. RH from the right distance so be careful and be ready to slide or whatever. Probably safer to use b. LK since it beats just about all his jump-ins.
Watch out for ambiguous cross-up LK if you get knocked down.

VS Deejay - Be careful using c. MP in this match-up, his slide beats it clean. s. MP does go over it though. You can c. MP under his fireballs just like Guile, but again be careful with your timing. db. MK to beat his slides. A lot of his normals badly out prioritize your's so be careful. Slides will beat jump-ins that stuff your normal anti-airs.

VS Fei-Long - Slide under bicycle kicks or try to trade with back LP. Watch for c. FP's since they can dizzy you fast, but other than that it's pretty much your match. Just keep your cool when the bicycle/rekka rush down starts and throw him out of any badly spaced/timed rekkas. Otherwise, you might find yourself dizzied before you know what happened.

VS Cammy - Your pokes beat out every move she has. So figure out what beats what and the match is more or less your's.

'Sim mirror I'm pretty clueless on, and I figure I'm not alone as even a lot of the mirror matches I've seen from the Japanese seem pretty sloppy. Then again, despite his tier ranking, 'Sim players are pretty scarce in most areas, so it's likely not going to be a huge problem if you neglect it for a while (the lack of replies for this topic is also good evidence of that). From what I've seen and played, there's a lot of offensive drilling involved.

Your worst matches are essentially Chun', Claw, O. Ken and Honda.
Don't rush reversals with Chun' and Claw as they have fast walk speeds that make it seem like they can throw a lot earlier than they really can.

[Footsy Bebop]

Here's a random Sim question.

Against ST Dictator, does Sim have anything that reverses Dictator's jumping forward (his jumping knee)?

I know you can't slide on it, but does anything else work? standing jab, stand short?

[Kyokuji]

Close s. MK and close s. LK trade, and close s. LP can beat it early closer up. You'd probably have to drill or jump back FP or something from farther away.
Also, if they're properly timed, a grounded Dhalsim has nothing that will beat shoto FP/RH, Deejay's RH, Blanka's RH, Vega's FP or Sagat's RH up close. The best you'll get is a trade with close s. LK most of the time. You can slide under all of these though.

If they jump straight up next to you, your best option is almost always close s. MP. Except for the shoto's straight jumping RH which is beaten by close s. LP.

Back LP will also trade with or beat a lot of normals from farther away as well, as long as their limb doesn't extend past the front of his hand and the priority on their attack isn't too high.

[Graham]

Here's a random Sim question.

Against ST Dictator, does Sim have anything that reverses Dictator's jumping forward (his jumping knee)?

I know you can't slide on it, but does anything else work? standing jab, stand short?

Standing jab close counters it.

As for anti airs, slides work on many chars(they have no jumpin that hits the slide, meaning they cant jump at you), use short slide, low close jab, low close forward as a 3 hit combo on jumpins or do forward slide from a bit further back crossup, then 2 low close forwards, for a 3 hit combo.

Some chars the slide wont work on the jumpin, in these instances its either close standing jab, far standing jab, or close standing short/forward. If a char jumps on your head then use the close standing strong. Very few chars in the game have counters for all those. If anyone does ask me ill tell you the counter.

[Ouroborus]

i use st old sim.

whats a good anti air vs chuns j.mk j.lk and ryu and kens crossup?

[Kyokuji]

You have to remember that just because you can't afford to hit them with the slide, doesn't mean you can't slide under their attack.

Close s. LP against shoto cross-up. Back MP or jump back FP/RH/MK drill for Chun's MK and you can just slide in on her LK or use anything really on her jumping LK, but the thing is they look identical, so you're better off not taking the chance.

If you're using old 'Sim, you're gonna have to jump to counter these or slide under the shoto cross-ups from close range.

[Footsy Bebop]

What can Sim use to reverse Blanka's jumping attacks? Blanka's jumping fierce? jumping roundhouse? jumping forward? jumping short?

[Kyokuji]

I find that jumping forward/MP is best against Blanka with his high jump arc and fast jump speed.

[WaNageThY]

I dont think there is one of there....
But what are some good combo/strats wiht him, i want to learn a good sim

[NKI]

Merged.

[Deadpool135]

Thank you kyokuji for all the info =). It was much needed.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Does anyone know how the damage works for the Yoga Flame? Sometimes it does a ton of damage and other times it does close to nothing. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. Is it completely random, or is there some secret to getting bigger damage out of it?

[jaminbenjamin]

random

[SweetJohnnyV]

That's too bad. I was hoping there was some technique to it, like make sure to hit them with just the end tip of the flame or something. Oh well.

[Kyokuji]

Could be a variety of factors anyway. Natural damage reduction as a person's lifebar goes down, or things just being random as ST sometimes is.

[CigarBoB]

Here is a bit to add for the match vs Boxer.

To start the match you have to set the tone right away. I would recomend you dont even pick your character but let time run out on the character select screen so that your opponent knows what is in store for him. Ahh nothing like prematch strats.

Starting off the round it is wise to cr.strong. If boxer blocks you can put him at the right range right away. If he head butts you will recover and be able to st.mk him before he lands and then a fierce FB will force him to block again. At this point he is in your range. It should be just outside your st.mp rage.

When you have boxer in your range DO NOT wiff to many moves. Most medium/hard wiffed moves will let boxer rushsweep you and then even if you block it he is in on you. At this range it is best to use FB's and st/cr.mp's that are blocked.

Be careful not to toss to many fireballs as a good boxer will strait jump one and then get in on you. after you get him at this range mix up your FB speeds. Toss a Jab and if he strait jumps its you can hit him with a few limbs. If he does the < or > fp/mp you can st.fp him. If he does a RH on the way down you can wait and hit him with rh/mk just before he hits the ground. Again be carefull not to get reckless with FB's at this point keep your calm and hold him down with mk/mp.

When boxer does get in, and he will, you need to watch a few things. If he should jump from far to hit you do a back.mk/lk then you can cancel into jab/strong FB to force him to block and get him back in your range. Back+Jab is an excelent move when boxer is in close on you. Some boxers love to just jump on your head when you are in the corner. If you are not comfortable telleporting you can b.jab him out of the air if you do it early. In this sittuation it is better to do a teleport, the 623KKK will take you the furthest away.

You will now need to know how to deal with close blocked/wiffed buffalos. After boxer buffalos you can do a few things. If it is wiffed and he is close I recomend you cr.jab x Jab FB. This will force him to block and then anticipate your next move. You can cr.strong and push him out but if you anticipate another buffalo just mk him and get him back to your range again. If you block the buffalo cr.mp/cr.mk will hit him but it may not be wise to xx FB. If the boxer is smart they will buffalo again and hit you and then he is in. you should cr.mkx2 to push him out and then set the pace of the match again.

Oh and remember the Fierce FB is your friend. From full screen there isn't any thing he can do to punnish you for throwing them. If you play an opponent that likes to use the 1,2,3,4's you will hit him out of them and knock him down. Even if he does a normal rush and trades with you he will be knocked back to the far side of the screen and you are back in controll with more pokes.

When boxer gets super BLOCK!! I can not stress this enough. It will and has turned the whole game because of one bad slide or FB. If you are keeping him at your max range your game will not change to much. He can not super through FB's at full scree. But from 3/4 screed stop tossing them and do not cr.mk xx FB when he has super he will go through the FB with it every time if they are good. Keep it simple and wait for him to burn his super.

This is a match that I have had to work out against Joe Zazza's rog over the past 1.5 years. If there is any thing that can be adjusted or added please do.

Thanks to Gian for showing me the light and making me want to play sim.

It is my opinion that this match is in favor of sim 60/40 and maybe even 70/30 if boxer doesn't have super.

[Black Velvet Ryu.]

who has some strats vs blanka? specifically how to anti-air the bastard.

[Graham]

standing strong close, when he is close, low jab when he jumps from a distance or jump back/up and fierce if you got the space.

[CigarBoB]

If blanka is jumping in at you with LK you can short slide under then cr.mpx2 xx FP fierball for a poke string.

Jumping away RH will work if you do it early. But like graham said FP is better in that situation.

Most of the time Blanka will jump with HK or HP from far so you cant slide them. If you didn't hit him out of the air early with mk/hk you can back.Jab him for a clean hit. Then fireball them meaty so that they land on it and you can push him out after that.

db.jab is really good for stoping the ball and other far pokes. The arm does not have a hit box at all.

Good luck Blanka is a fucking whore vs Sim.

[fatboy]

I was playing with J Cole this weekend, and we played this match up for a bit. One other thing you can throw in to the mix among all the other great tips, is the neutral FP on early jump attacks.

Many Blanka players like to jump from a far with a slightly early attack to hit your AA limbs. If you see this hit FP b4 they land. You either hit them after the limib retracts and push them back, or if they land and block and you push them back. Either way you reset you zone.

Most Blanka's will try to reclose this distance they just lost by jumping after being pushed back. Follow up the FP with a slow fire ball and they may land right on it. If they do make it over the fireball use the AA of your chioce or hit FP again... starting the pattern all over.:lol:

This by no means is *the way to beat blanka* but it is a piece of the puzzle.

Anyway, I am No Dhalsim expert like many around here.:sweat: But I figured you would want all the information you could get about this match up.:wgrin: It may not be the prefect strat. However, I have used it many times to save me from getting my face chewed by blanka!

[Black Velvet Ryu.]

question for you sim masters, how dependable and reliable is the sim teleport?, seems like it could be very useful though I can only get it out maybe half the time its called upon, any opinion on it and tips on ways of getting it out consistently would be appreciated thanks.

[Grits'N'Gravy]

question for you sim masters, how dependable and reliable is the sim teleport?, seems like it could be very useful though I can only get it out maybe half the time its called upon, any opinion on it and tips on ways of getting it out consistently would be appreciated thanks.

Have you tried to straight up negative edge it? I'm assuming you mean on wakeup/as reversal. I think it would be easier to release than press most of the time, and you also won't get random as much random shit instead of the teleport.

[ThisGuileKillYa]

One of the things that makes Dhalsim so strong is his multitude of available anti airs. but many of these don't work on certain characters or from certain distances, etc. Can anyone break down any key anti airs for certain matchups? For example, I once faced a Dhalsim who always anti-aired me with a short slide into a throw. Unfrotunately it was a LONG time ago so I don't remember which character I was using at the time.. but who can that work on? Who wont it? When is back-jab preferable to back-strong and vice versa? Who has the tricky jumps that can get over a seemingly well places stretchy-forward or roundhouse?

This thread has a lot of great general info, but few nitty gritty specifics (tho cigarbob's vs boxer breakdown was great, nice work dude!). Can anyone do what Cigarbob did but for some other characters? I'd really like to get better with Dhalsim, but matchup theory seems especially important for him as compared to, say, Ryu, who's going to approach most of his matches similarly.

Thanks!

[SweetJohnnyV]

I just figured out tonight that you can combo Sim's super off of a slow fireball! I'm guessing this may be common knowledge to some people out there, but I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about this, so it's news to me :wgrin:

Now, the downside is that it doesn't appear to be too practical. The timing is tight, the spacing is tight, and from my tests I think you need to start this when the opponent is getting up in the corner. So, it's fairly situational too.

Anyway, here's how to do it:

1. Get opponent into corner
2. Position yourself just slightly out of standing LP range
3. Knock the opponent down...ideally so that they become dizzy!
4. Do a slow yoga fire so that it'll hit them meaty in their back as they're getting up
5. Do a super IMMEDIATELY on the frame that you recover from the yoga fire.

If you did this correctly, you should get a 6 hit combo that does reasonably more damage than just a super.

Like I said, it doesn't seem to be very practical. It relies on a lot of things all coming together. And even if they do, it's a real bitch to pull off correctly. On the other hand, if you did pull this off to win the round, it'd be a pretty impressive finish! :tup:

[Duck Strong]

One of the things that makes Dhalsim so strong is his multitude of available anti airs. but many of these don't work on certain characters or from certain distances, etc. Can anyone break down any key anti airs for certain matchups? For example, I once faced a Dhalsim who always anti-aired me with a short slide into a throw. Unfrotunately it was a LONG time ago so I don't remember which character I was using at the time.. but who can that work on? Who wont it? When is back-jab preferable to back-strong and vice versa? Who has the tricky jumps that can get over a seemingly well places stretchy-forward or roundhouse?

This thread has a lot of great general info, but few nitty gritty specifics (tho cigarbob's vs boxer breakdown was great, nice work dude!). Can anyone do what Cigarbob did but for some other characters? I'd really like to get better with Dhalsim, but matchup theory seems especially important for him as compared to, say, Ryu, who's going to approach most of his matches similarly.

Thanks!

Here's a brief list of characters which I know you probably shouldn't anti-air with slide.

Boxer
Cammy
Sagat
Dic
Guile
Blanka
Chun-Li
Claw(I think)
Honda
Gief(I think)

Shotos, Deejay, Fei Long and Hawk are all slide bait. I don't believe they have any air attack that can beat it.

Oddly enough I'm not sure if you can anti-air sim's drills with slide since I hardly ever play that mirror match.

But then again it's fairly situational since not all their jump in attacks will stuff slides.

Also be aware that although his cross up slide is nice, it's actually blockable if the opponent is onto your shenanigans(This might be strictly an AE thing, but I was surprised when this happened to me the other day).

A big part of learning Dhalsim is learning what anti-air to use and when. They're mostly range dependent so you need a good sense of spacing.

Cheers

[jchensor]

Actually, iirc, Sagat is primary target for anti-air slides. In fact, I don't think Sagat can hit any of the low punches either.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[UltraDavid]

Yeah, slides are bad antiairs against Gief. He can eat them up with jumping down+forward, down+short, or regular forward, depending on the distance, and once you antiair him with a slide you better make sure you combo into crouching back+forward or whatever, because otherwise you're getting spun. Not that that makes things difficult for Dhalsim, you have a plethora of good antiairs to use againt Gief even without slide.

[Nori]

Upon knockdown (new sim player here), is it possible to be aggressive to shotos at all? I always get reversed DP everytime, no matter what mixup I use? Any advice would be awesome, thanks

[fatboy]

Upon knockdown (new sim player here), is it possible to be aggressive to shotos at all? I always get reversed DP everytime, no matter what mixup I use? Any advice would be awesome, thanks

Depends on where they are.

Sometimes it is just better to walk up and duck just just outside of throw range right as they get up. You bait the Reversal SRK, and the you can punish.

Other times, I do the same thing but do the yoage flame a MAX range, they get up in to it, which if in the corner is dangerous for them, or they reversal (other than super combo) they get hit by the flames, lose ~20% and get knocked down again.

If none of this makes sense it is b/c it is late. I will edit in the AM....LOL

[ShinAkuma204]

Upon knockdown (new sim player here), is it possible to be aggressive to shotos at all? I always get reversed DP everytime, no matter what mixup I use? Any advice would be awesome, thanks

You can try a meaty headbutt (really frickin hard to reversal DP) when they are getting up. However if their reversal DP timing is flawless they will still hit you.

[Nori]

This is all great stuff, thanks for the feedback guys. The only game I'm playing a lot is SF2T on XBLA and there are guys who just mash the shit out of DP and I feel sometimes I can't stop it. Those strategies seem good though

[Duck Strong]

Actually, iirc, Sagat is primary target for anti-air slides. In fact, I don't think Sagat can hit any of the low punches either.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

I could have sworn that his jump short could beat out slides. In either case I think I'll fire up ST some time to make a thorough list for each character's jump attacks.

[Shirts]

I could have sworn that his jump short could beat out slides. In either case I think I'll fire up ST some time to make a thorough list for each character's jump attacks.

Sagat's jump short cannot beat Dhalsim's slide.

[ShinAkuma204]

Sagat has no attack to beat out slide. His options are jump fromjust putside slide range and land with a TU or kick early to hit Sim before slide attempt.

[Mokura]

The Teleport glitch where you perform the move going Toward and end up in the same spot is avoidable; just nobody's studied the move cuz they've abandoned it for the most part. It does the same thing in the SNES version of SSF2 but I figured out why it happens in a few minutes.

[Logos]

So how do you avoid the glitch, then?

[Mokura]

Y'all can figure it out; it'll be common knowledge in a couple years.

In case y'all don't know this yet, there's a difference between Teleporting w/ punches and kicks and it's not whichever is more convenient for you: using kicks keeps a larger gap between you and your opponent, and using punches keeps a smaller gap. If you're tryna run, use kicks.

[Kyokuji]

In case y'all don't know this yet, there's a difference between Teleporting w/ punches and kicks and it's not whichever is more convenient for you: using kicks keeps a larger gap between you and your opponent, and using punches keeps a smaller gap. If you're tryna run, use kicks.

Pretty sure that's common knowledge. Like "you can tell from just doing the move" common.

Somebody explained the glitch in a topic a long time ago. If I can find it, I'll link it, since this guy wants to act like he was the first one who figured it out.
I'm gonna do some editing to the 'Sim mini-guide I wrote up on the first page. I didn't really know the match-ups anywhere near as well as I thought I did back when I wrote it, so I'm gonna try to correct a lot of it for anyone who gives enough of a shit to read it.

Gonna try not to write too much, since we're here to help, not play the game for people.

[Mokura]

I doubt I'm the first to figure it out; the point is I figured it out for myself and it only took a matter of minutes. Just tryna get someone to do a little work instead of always mooching the info from someone else.

[djfrijoles]

whats up fellow sim players?!?!
i got a good trap not mentioned here against a ken ryu mach up!!! after you get a noogie going you can walk right up to them as they fall and time a crouching down back short so that the ass end of it is a meaty, you can go fairly easily into another noogie. obviously the key here is the timing because if u mess up the timing you can be pushed back to far and you´ll go into his reach for the sky back strong punch leaving you open for a crouching round house
which = knockdown which = bad. or even worse against advanced ryu players is a crouching forward into a devastating super combo. thanks for all the other info posted and i hope my contribution helps another sim fan!!!:wgrin:

[fatboy]

Snip. ..
Thanks for sharing.

However, if that is the kind of tick trap you want. I would use the db Jab. It is MUCH safer. (and offers the same stun properties)

Remember, the ENTIRE arm of Sim's db jab is invincible, unlike his DB short. Its extended leg can be hit.

You see, if the Ryu/Ken pull out a reversal on the tick, their SRK will right through the arm, and you can punish their recovery. (*)

That would not be the case on the bd short. If they pull out a reversal, your hit AND knocked down. VERY VERY bad for Sim....The risk reward is not there for the db short.

(*) Provided you have the perfect spacing to hit with the tip of the arm beyond there jab DP range and still be right out side their throw range.

For the record I am not trying to flame. Just trying to give a piece of advice I have seen used in videos and have used MANY times in gameplay.

[ShinAkuma204]

I would also recommend the classic noogie trap (meaty standing strong, explained in this thread - http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=135206) over the short kick version suggested by djfrijoles.

Meaty standing strong is tough to deal with.

[fatboy]

I would also recommend the classic noogie trap (meaty standing strong, explained in this thread - http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=135206) over the short kick version suggested by djfrijoles.

Meaty standing strong is tough to deal with.

Yeah.. dude it works... ShinAkuma204 introduced it to me. I personally like the Mk.slide trap for N.Sim more. (sets up for a 50/50 mix up). But the meaty MP works great. I use it all the time in SF2Turbo. Use it to mix up you tick trap setups to keep ppl guessing.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Speaking of db jab, I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the different ducking punches. Are there any scenarios where db strong or db fierce are a better option? Not for ticks, just for general gameplay.

For example in stopping honda's torpedo or blanka's ball, which works best? Which works best for anti-air? Etc?

[fatboy]

Speaking of db jab, I was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the different ducking punches. Are there any scenarios where db strong or db fierce are a better option? Not for ticks, just for general gameplay.

For example in stopping honda's torpedo or blanka's ball, which works best? Which works best for anti-air? Etc?

If you are looking fo rthe best DB punsh to zone or stop moves, it goes to the db Jab, 100%.

As far as using the others DB punches in other situations, there are a few, but nothing of any merit worth really building any strategy. ( maybe in a occasional situtaion, but no fundamental strategy)

The priority just isn't there for them (db mp/hp) to be used over other moves.

Send me a INV next time you online Jonny an well play... and I'll show you.

[SweetJohnnyV]

If you are looking fo rthe best DB punsh to zone or stop moves, it goes to the db Jab, 100%.


That's kinda what I figured. Just wasn't sure if the longer duration of the others made any difference.

Also, I just took a look at the YBH again. It's really tough to see what the hitboxes for those moves look like. At first, I thought they were all about the same. But after looking really close, it looks like there may be a box where you can get hit in your arm for the MP and FP versions. Hard to tell though. I wish the pictures were bigger and/or used a different background color.


Send me a INV next time you online Jonny an well play... and I'll show you.


Sounds like fun. I might be on later tonight.

[fatboy]

it looks like there may be a box where you can get hit in your arm for the MP and FP versions.

Exactly.. That is why they are not as good.


Sounds like fun. I might be on later tonight.

Actually next week will be better. I am of to Vegas again this wekend!

[Kyokuji]

The only game I'm playing a lot is SF2T on XBLA and there are guys who just mash the shit out of DP and I feel sometimes I can't stop it. Those strategies seem good though

That likely has more to do with lag than anything else.

[djfrijoles]

Hello again Sim fans!!!
First i want to say thanks for the response to my previous post about down back short.
I guess it wasnt as reliable as i thought!
Well i have something else i want to share, hoping this is more help to my fellow Sim players.
I´ve noticed in ST , and maybe other fighting games as well, that there is a lot of "bad habits"
we can exploit. I call them that for lack of a name. what I´m talking about are a few things a lot of players , including me , tend to do in the middle of gameplay. a friend of mine named Interceptor from Kaillera gave me a good example. After two blocked fireballs there is always a STRONG urge to jump at your opponent. whoever has this knowledge exploits it to its fullest anticipating that jump and punishes it with max damage. Well in a Guile vs Sim battle the other day i found one for myself which might be common knowledge to pros but this thread is for all , pro and begginers so maybe it will help someone else. If you manage to knock a fireball opponent down and you both end up at both corners, throw a fireball so it hits them as they get up. the most common next move would be to throw another fireball for most of us, including the opponent, so what do you do instead? Disapere so you end up right behind them immediatle after your fireball and the opponent will more times than not throw a counter fireball , to avoid chip damage but in reality you end up with perfect timing and you can go right into a noogie trap of your choice!!! Ive used it against some pretty fierce pros in kaillera and it works well!!! Try it out and i´ll greatly appreciate any feedback!! Good or bad.
Oh and a quick question. Kyokuji did i see you on kaillera the other day? If so maybe we could go a few rounds sometime buddy?!?!

[fatboy]

Hello again Sim fans!!!
First i want to say thanks for the response to my previous post about down back short.
I guess it wasnt as reliable as i thought!
Well i have something else i want to share, hoping this is more help to my fellow Sim players.
I´ve noticed in ST , and maybe other fighting games as well, that there is a lot of "bad habits"
we can exploit. I call them that for lack of a name. what I´m talking about are a few things a lot of players , including me , tend to do in the middle of gameplay. a friend of mine named Interceptor from Kaillera gave me a good example. After two blocked fireballs there is always a STRONG urge to jump at your opponent. whoever has this knowledge exploits it to its fullest anticipating that jump and punishes it with max damage. Well in a Guile vs Sim battle the other day i found one for myself which might be common knowledge to pros but this thread is for all , pro and begginers so maybe it will help someone else. If you manage to knock a fireball opponent down and you both end up at both corners, throw a fireball so it hits them as they get up. the most common next move would be to throw another fireball for most of us, including the opponent, so what do you do instead? Disapere so you end up right behind them immediatle after your fireball and the opponent will more times than not throw a counter fireball , to avoid chip damage but in reality you end up with perfect timing and you can go right into a noogie trap of your choice!!! Ive used it against some pretty fierce pros in kaillera and it works well!!! Try it out and i´ll greatly appreciate any feedback!! Good or bad.
Oh and a quick question. Kyokuji did i see you on kaillera the other day? If so maybe we could go a few rounds sometime buddy?!?!

Hey Man...

Not trying to flame, but you need to working on the formatting of your post. I myself am by no means am a grammar/ English expert. But, it is really hard to read your post.

I am sure you have some good points, or are offering something interesting topics to discuss. <But, it literally hurts my eyes to try and read your post.>

Please add some spacing or something...

If I am the only one who feels this way about this, I apologize.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Yeah, the teleport behind them while they throw a fireball trick works pretty good sometimes. Another variant is to throw a slow fireball immediately when you knock them down and then teleport behind them. As they're getting up, they'll need to block the fireball from one direction and then deal with your attack from the other direction.

However, you have to be really careful about when to use this. Even if they leave themselves stuck in a move or in block-stun, they can still do a reversal move to beat your throw. And if they dont leave themselves open, they can combo you for big damage. Plus, against many characters your money ahead by having your opponent on the other side of the screen.

So, all I'm saying is that ya, it's a decent trick and it'll catch people off guard sometimes. But be careful with it! I usually only use it when I'm desparate, or when I'm way ahead in life and I think I can catch them off guard and finish them off with it.

[djfrijoles]

Wow i wasn´t expecting that.
Guess I´ll just stick to reading posts.

[fatboy]

Wow i wasn´t expecting that.
Guess I´ll just stick to reading posts.

No dude don't take it personally.:wgrin: I am really not trying to attack you. I am actually trying to help. If you want ppl to read your posts, you need to make them a little more easy to read.

Post as much as you want!

If you read back a page you'll see that I wrote a very full and complete reply to your prior post. I am not telling you not to post ( I think that my other post may have come off to strong), I am just asking your to make it easier to read format wise.

If you want ppl to read your post you have to make them easier to read.

Many ppl have given me advise on posting over the years. I am just trying to give you a little tip...

[djfrijoles]

Ok then homie!!!

Sounds good.

Nothing happened here people, move along nothing here to see!!!
Truth be told i just discovered SRK not to long ago and i sure do wanna be a part of all this with you guys!!!

I can honestly say i have a real love for ST and finding this place with all my people that feel the same way ** especially Sim fans** made me feel pretty good yo!!!
This is so far my favorite thread so keep all the good info. coming everyone!!!

[DanThrasher]

I'm not new to Dhalsim, but there are a few things that I need cleared up.

When trying to zone with fireballs against a decent Chun player, how should I deal with jumping MK's/ RH's. I know that maybe I could try to teleport away, but usually the Chuns I play will only jump at me if i don't have the time to recover and counter.

ex. Yoga Fire (from 3/4 to full screen) the instant I spit, here comes Chun. From experience I know a slide won't work, I also know that most of my oponents will not throw out the kick unless they know I'm vulnerable, and before anyone asks, no they don't really give me the time to jump back and sniper/ air-air with J.MK/ RH.

If I do try to jump and fight the Jump In, my opponent will wait and use a move to out prioritize my air-air attempt.

The idea is, if i stay on the ground they us Jin. MK, If I jump up they use the RH to counter. Is there a way to counter this shit or should I try to run with teleport, or maybe some of you guys have better ideas of how to deal with this.

[NKI]

Chun's j.Forward owns Sim pretty bad. Your only good option is to do jump back Fierce (assuming you have time after recovering from your fireball). Or just block.

Those are the only two things I've seen Sim players use consistently with success.

(Of course if you have meter you could do the super, but this won't work if she's jumping over your fireball.)

[DanThrasher]

Thanks, that kick is brutal.

Also, NKI, your Dhalsim vs. Chun's j.short vid was very nice, it helped me show my friend what it was that I meant by Priority.

Thanks again.

[BoggleMinds]

Thanks, that kick is brutal.

Also, NKI, your Dhalsim vs. Chun's j.short vid was very nice, it helped me show my friend what it was that I meant by Priority.

Thanks again.

Speaking of the Sim vs. Chun vid, what was the music used in it?

[Kyokuji]

Chun's j.Forward owns Sim pretty bad. Your only good option is to do jump back Fierce (assuming you have time after recovering from your fireball). Or just block.

Those are the only two things I've seen Sim players use consistently with success.

(Of course if you have meter you could do the super, but this won't work if she's jumping over your fireball.)

b. MP trades if you're right under her. Gian used to slide under her fireballs to bait a jump-in and then b. MP.

[fatboy]

b. MP trades if you're right under her. Gian used to slide under her fireballs to bait a jump-in and then b. MP.

Agreed.

Here is another thought to add to that. If you are slightly off with your spacing and timing on the back MP, you'll trade with Chun.

However, she'll hit you very high in your extended sprite, you will recover before she hits the grounds, and you'll have a chance to throw her when she lands.

I am not 100% postive if it gives you a true throw advange (think jumping kick gief earily on top of his head, he can get a spinner off b/c they land in recovery). Maybe some with more knowledge can clarify.. NKI.. hiny hint hint... :wink:

However, it does get to close to Chun. Which even if it is 50/50 split for Sim/Chun to get a throw off, it gives Sim a chance to get in an land the noogie trap. At worse if this is the case, you'll get thrown by chun, which you'll probably tech throw.

You can see it for yourself here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fZwigE0vNg

Look at the 7 sec mark and 54 sec mark.

REMEMBER, this in not a clean hit 90% of the time (timing and spacing have to be prefect), if you are not in the right range when you attempt the b.strong, you'll get toasted with a big combo. It is a gamble when doing this. Depending on your point of view, it might not be worth it.

The event tree would look like this...

You either hit clean (rarely happens), or
You get hit on the extended body, and you get the throw, or
You get hit on the extended body, she gets the throw (not sure of if the throw advatage goes to Sim on the exchange), or
excahnge, or
You get combo'ed.

[DanThrasher]

Here is a bit to add for the match vs Boxer.

To start the match you have to set the tone right away. I would recomend you dont even pick your character but let time run out on the character select screen so that your opponent knows what is in store for him. Ahh nothing like prematch strats.

Starting off the round it is wise to cr.strong. If boxer blocks you can put him at the right range right away. If he head butts you will recover and be able to st.mk him before he lands and then a fierce FB will force him to block again. At this point he is in your range. It should be just outside your st.mp rage.

When you have boxer in your range DO NOT wiff to many moves. Most medium/hard wiffed moves will let boxer rushsweep you and then even if you block it he is in on you. At this range it is best to use FB's and st/cr.mp's that are blocked.

Be careful not to toss to many fireballs as a good boxer will strait jump one and then get in on you. after you get him at this range mix up your FB speeds. Toss a Jab and if he strait jumps its you can hit him with a few limbs. If he does the < or > fp/mp you can st.fp him. If he does a RH on the way down you can wait and hit him with rh/mk just before he hits the ground. Again be carefull not to get reckless with FB's at this point keep your calm and hold him down with mk/mp.

When boxer does get in, and he will, you need to watch a few things. If he should jump from far to hit you do a back.mk/lk then you can cancel into jab/strong FB to force him to block and get him back in your range. Back+Jab is an excelent move when boxer is in close on you. Some boxers love to just jump on your head when you are in the corner. If you are not comfortable telleporting you can b.jab him out of the air if you do it early. In this sittuation it is better to do a teleport, the 623KKK will take you the furthest away.

You will now need to know how to deal with close blocked/wiffed buffalos. After boxer buffalos you can do a few things. If it is wiffed and he is close I recomend you cr.jab x Jab FB. This will force him to block and then anticipate your next move. You can cr.strong and push him out but if you anticipate another buffalo just mk him and get him back to your range again. If you block the buffalo cr.mp/cr.mk will hit him but it may not be wise to xx FB. If the boxer is smart they will buffalo again and hit you and then he is in. you should cr.mkx2 to push him out and then set the pace of the match again.

Oh and remember the Fierce FB is your friend. From full screen there isn't any thing he can do to punnish you for throwing them. If you play an opponent that likes to use the 1,2,3,4's you will hit him out of them and knock him down. Even if he does a normal rush and trades with you he will be knocked back to the far side of the screen and you are back in controll with more pokes.

When boxer gets super BLOCK!! I can not stress this enough. It will and has turned the whole game because of one bad slide or FB. If you are keeping him at your max range your game will not change to much. He can not super through FB's at full scree. But from 3/4 screed stop tossing them and do not cr.mk xx FB when he has super he will go through the FB with it every time if they are good. Keep it simple and wait for him to burn his super.

This is a match that I have had to work out against Joe Zazza's rog over the past 1.5 years. If there is any thing that can be adjusted or added please do.

Thanks to Gian for showing me the light and making me want to play sim.

It is my opinion that this match is in favor of sim 60/40 and maybe even 70/30 if boxer doesn't have super.

When you mentioned Boxer doing his head butt (2nd paragraph) did you mean his Buffalo or his throw. I think beating Boxer with Dhalsim is just a matter of keeping him from doing his throw and trying your damndest to make him waste his super when he gets it.

Really though, I hope you meant the throw, I'd love to be able to get some compensation for that throw. Cuz most boxers I come accross will jump in at me like crazy whether or not I'm anti-airing them cuz they know that if they land that freakin' throw it will make up for the 6 or 7 times that I hit him clean with b+jab.

Also, one last thing that happens to me a lot while fighting boxer is I'll try like F--- to AA him but no matter what I'm hitting him with we trade and Dhalsim gets the shitty end of the deal. Any Ideas on how to play it a little safer or maybe be able to lay some more damage on him?

[fatboy]

I made a video to answer some of DanTharshers post. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I go through a match hit by hit, showing use of Dhalsims AA's and Zones. There is lot there in 1 1/2 minutes. There is a long write up that goes with it. Click the <<<MORE INFO>>> tab on the youtube.page. Please read it, itgives other infromation important to that match up that a casual player might not realize.

If you know how to play Sim. This might be boring. I just wanted to contribute something to the ST community.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmfdfrfGzJM

This my first vid. and input would be great. It is the first of many, if there is enough interest.

I'll be doing all the differnt match ups, several times over, exploring each move, and how they can be implemented.

I am not a Sim expert, but I do know a lot. If you have someting to add let me know. I will be more than open in trying to hear it.

[ShinAkuma204]

Great vid, but it seems more of a play by play format than instructional or informative. While the good info is there I think some slowdowns or pauses to illustrate what is being done could benefit as it seems to move a bit too fast.

IMHO.

[fatboy]

Great vid, but it seems more of a play by play format than instructional or informative. While the good info is there I think some slowdowns or pauses to illustrate what is being done could benefit as it seems to move a bit too fast.

IMHO.

Did you read the "more info?" on the left on side under about this video? There is a lot under there, I was hopping that would add a bit more depth.

I wanted to show the match in real time. Forcing the watch to pause. This forces them to interact with the video, hopefully causing them to get more out of it.

I'll look at adding the slow downs and such all. I have is windows movie maker. I'll see if it can do that!

Thanks for the input!

Edit: I added some more text describing what Sim is trying to do.

"In this match Dhalsim does a great job of controlling the space. This is how Sim wins this match up. Note how Sim uses the fireball to force Rog to avoid it. As Rog tries to avoid it, Sim uses the appropriate counters to whatever Rog does. When Rog starts to get too close, Sim pushes him away with the normals, and start the FB zone again."

I thought that might put the video in better context.

[SweetJohnnyV]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmfdfrfGzJM

This my first vid. and input would be great. It is the first of many, if there is enough interest.


A couple notes:

1. In your extended info section. For part (a) you say that "b. St is one of two options here". I think you meant to say b. Jab.

2. About your * comment: I mostly agree with you in that it would be safer to keep his zone in-tact. However, although Boxer didn't have his super charged, he was pretty close to having it charged. My guess is that the Sim player decided to try to rush him down and finish him off before he got a chance to finish charging it. Not sure if I would've went for it, but just a guess as to why he did.

3. About comment #3: It looked like Boxer got pushed back far enough from the yoga flame that even if he did a BH through the yoga Sim wouldn't get hit. I could be wrong about this, and it's a good tip regardless of the specifics here. But it does make me wonder something. Does a blocked yoga flame push a close opponent out further than a yoga fire? I've never stopped to think about this before, but it could be useful if that's the case.

I think it's a really great breakdown man! I'm definitely interested in seeing more :lovin:


EDIT: It's really too bad that you can only rewind in blocks on youtube. I don't mind pausing the video. In fact, I think I prefer it because then I have the option of just watching the full match also after I've taken in the notes. But when I miss some tidbit that happens, rewinding in blocks is annoying.

[nohoho]

Yoshimura vs. Tsuji
Yoshimura's air defense is no joke.

In fact was the next match another Dhalsim-Boxer? (Don't have the file on my HD any more.) I just realized right now that must have been Kurahashi counter-picking.

Man that CigarBob write-up was really good stuff. It's too bad dude never got around to writing more new ken material.

[Logos]

*snip*

Good shit, man. Thanks for making that. :lovin:

[djfrijoles]

Holy shit sign me up on the intrest bandwagon!!!

All the match ups would be awsome yo!
Only thing is i would also like to see the slow mo action. It would be a lot of work but have you thought about a double release like the Shenanagins vid? One with slow mo and the other without! Well it´s just a suggestion because that would be a hell of a lota work doing all the match ups like that.

Hey heres an idea, I think we could benifit a lot from vids where Sim loses, and all the mistakes are explained also.

Thumbs up on your first project man!!!

[ShinAkuma204]

Did you read the "more info?" on the left on side under about this video? There is a lot under there, I was hopping that would add a bit more depth.

I wanted to show the match in real time. Forcing the watch to pause. This forces them to interact with the video, hopefully causing them to get more out of it.

I'll look at adding the slow downs and such all. I have is windows movie maker. I'll see if it can do that!

Thanks for the input!

I read the extra info. It did add to the vid. I just feel that it is moving too fast for some players who are trying to learn to keep up with.

Good vid nonetheless.

[DanThrasher]

Holy shit sign me up on the intrest bandwagon!!!

All the match ups would be awsome yo!
Only thing is i would also like to see the slow mo action. It would be a lot of work but have you thought about a double release like the Shenanagins vid? One with slow mo and the other without! Well it´s just a suggestion because that would be a hell of a lota work doing all the match ups like that.

Hey heres an idea, I think we could benifit a lot from vids where Sim loses, and all the mistakes are explained also.

Thumbs up on your first project man!!!

Definitly, I was pudding around on super turbo yesterday morning. I was trying to compose a list of Dhalsim's anti-airs against the rest of the cast.

By doing so I realized, it's not so much the move you choose vs. another one, (It sometime seems like the timing doesn't matter, but if you really try to mess up you still can.)

I started with b+jab against Blanka's jump in punches, what i learned was that as long as you struck b+jab so that you hand was up his ass BEFORE his fist could touch your face (or the hit box for it) you would win clean, the wierd angle of blanka's fist seem to make his j. mp a bit more difficult to beat with b.+jab, but still possible.

And then there was Blanka's j.HP. The downward claw thing. I thought there was no way i could beat it with b.+jab. After succesfully proving that, I had my friend jump at me from a little closer, she accidentally went over me with the j.HP, Sim turned and hit Blanka with the b.+jab.

After this, I had Blanka come at me again with j.HP, I would take a small step towards Blanka and input b.+jab and it could now easily beat his j.HP just because your hand once again goes up and hits BEFORE the claws can get to you, try doing the same without walking forward first dhalsim loses.

I think this is why there are a lot of people who don't want to take the time to learn Sim, It's not like his moves win 100% or lose 100%, its all about when and where you do his moves.

I think that there is a lot to be said about how Sim's anti-airs work, but a hell of a lot more to say about why they sometimes won't.

[fatboy]

I think this is why there are a lot of people who don't want to take the time to learn Sim, It's not like his moves win 100% or lose 100%, its all about when and where you do his moves.

I think that there is a lot to be said about how Sim's anti-airs work, but a hell of a lot more to say about why they sometimes won't.

That is exactly it. When I first started to use Sim... I thought it was as easy to use AA 'X' when opponents jumps in and does 'Y.' This is not the case.

Moves like the SRKs, Flask Kicks, Sumo Head -Butts, and etc are invincible and easy to use. They follow the X/Y rational. An opponent jumps (or jump attacks) you simply use invincible AA move.

These invincible AAs essentially drive and push through your the oppents hit boxes and cause damage. As stated in various form above, these are the "go to" AA's for character that have them. Again, if an opponents jumps, you use that move to punish.

Sim does hot have any invincible moves, other than his super, he has no "go to" AA.

He has to use timing and placement of various normals to execute a AA. The main thought behind Sims AAs are very different the invincible AAs. Instead of powering straight through the jumping attack, think of maneuvering around it, and hitting where it is vulnerable.

At least that is how I look at it.

[fatboy]

I have a new Dhalsim video up.. This one is cool (at least I think so).

Please vist the my space page.

http://www.youtube.com/user/fatboySRK

It covers Sim V. Blanka.

It is called the "The Young Yoga Master: Cleansing the Dirty Rodent."

It is being approved right now so I can't give a direct link. <----- nix this

Edit: Direct Link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N87lC1P3voc

PS. JOHNNY V.. All specials push out the same distance.. At least Sim's do...

[nohoho]

Dirty Rodent
:mad: NOT COOL! :mad:
:lp: :lp: :r: :lk: :hp:

Nah, heh, but video was dope. Great selection to focus on, too. I think Gian and T.Akiba have played each other a shitload of times (i.e. both sides know what's up.)

[SweetJohnnyV]

PS. JOHNNY V.. All specials push out the same distance.. At least Sim's do...

Thanks, that's good to know!

Nice work on the new video! It was both fun to watch and informative. Edutainment for the win :rofl:

[Warrior's Dreams]

Could someone talk about/go into detail about the Sim vs Deejay match up. This was all I found in this thread.



VS Deejay - Be careful using c. MP in this match-up, his slide beats it clean. s. MP does go over it though. You can c. MP under his fireballs just like Guile, but again be careful with your timing. db. MK to beat his slides. A lot of his normals badly out prioritize your's so be careful. You're gonna have to find out what beats his jump-ins, because they go right through your usual anti-airs, including back LP.

[Kyokuji]

Sliding is your friend against jump-ins you can't stuff standing up.
s. FP will beat things that stuff your RH/FK.

[fatboy]

Dirty Rodent.. Not Cool!...


Funny thing is.. I did not come up with that.. LOL.. I was playing WIth Nelson, Cole,Valle, and Beassely at evothis years.. I was blanka.... I was playing Nelson's Guile...

I was biting him with Banka (he is my second character)... and he smirks in his underbreath... Get off me you Dirty Rodent... LOL...

Everybody started laughing....

Ps. You have to admit the Crayola pic of blanka was awesome. I found it on Google image and I thought it was was perfect... LOL

[fatboy]

Could someone talk about/go into detail about the Sim vs Deejay match up. This was all I found in this thread.

I'll make a video in a week or so... Once I get views on the Blanka video..

[djfrijoles]

I'll make a video in a week or so... Once I get views on the Blanka video..

Please don´t leave out how to smash on Dee Jays jump in jab punch!!!
My God I hate that jump in attack!!!

[djfrijoles]

OK everyone I have a question.

I really need to implement the whiffed roundhouse drill into throw / noogie technique into my tactics of Sim play. Only thing is I don´t know how to set it up. I´m guessing it´s something like two meaty crouching back forwards and afterwords jump back into RH drill quickly.

Maybe there are more ways to set it up and I was hoping someone could post a few!!!
Any help will be appreciated!!!

[jchensor]

There is probably someone who can give you a really good answer to that question, but I'll give you the "vague top tier" advice.

Don't sweat the set-ups.

It's easy to play the game so that you think of things as set ups. How do I set up the proper distance for Tactic A? How do I set up the proper distance for Tactic B? The truth is this: the opponent never cooperates enough for it to work consistently. Plus, if you CAN get it to work consistently, that means you become predictable and the tactic can be spotted from a mile away and countered.

To be honest, just learn the distance of it. Learn, by sight, when Roundhouse Drill will miss, but barely. Learn it against every character. And once you learn that distance, you will find opportunities all over the place. You'll just... end up in the right distance randomly from time to time. And when you recognize that and realize your opponent is in a situation where they are scared enough or frozen enough by the threat of a quick Forward Drill, you do the Roundhouse one instead and get a free Throw.

You will mess it up a lot... hitting them by accident or doing it from too far away. That's okay. The more you do it, the more you'll learn the distance properly. Once you get out of the mindset where tricks that require proper distancing also require specific set ups, you'll actually become a much stronger player due to simply being able to do things on the fly.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[Kyokuji]

To be honest, just learn the distance of it. Learn, by sight, when Roundhouse Drill will miss, but barely. Learn it against every character. And once you learn that distance, you will find opportunities all over the place. You'll just... end up in the right distance randomly from time to time.

More or less. If you have to think about your basic strategy in the middle of the match, you've probably already lost.

[Professor Jones]

One simple way of setting it up is to mix it up with the mk drill. You make them think you're going to do an mk drill so they'll be waiting to block it (some characters have nothing to counter it at close range, and even if they have it's very fast so it's not easy to counter), but instead you do the rh one, the block they're waiting for never comes and they watch their character get thrown.

[fatboy]

Ok ya'll. am starting to think about what to do for my Next Vid. There have be calls for Honda or DJ. I am open to the majority here.

However, I would liek to konw would you prefer me to do it like the Blanka Vid or the Boxer vid?

Thoughts or input would be appreciated...

[SweetJohnnyV]

Ok ya'll. am starting to think about what to do for my Next Vid. There have be calls for Honda or DJ. I am open to the majority here.

However, I would liek to konw would you prefer me to do it like the Blanka Vid or the Boxer vid?

Thoughts or input would be appreciated...

The Blanka vid was more "fun" to watch, but it seemed like the Boxer vid had more detailed advice. I did really like the slowdown plays in the Blanka vid though. The one where blanka was jumping and sim did a late crouching fierce was especially nice. Maybe a mix of the two styles would work best?

As far as characters go, Honda and DJ would definitely be good. Other's I'd really like to see are Chun, Dictator, Claw, and Cammy...in roughly that order.

I look forward to seein' the next vid! :bgrin:

[Sweet Poison]

Some vid strats against Honda and then Djay would be nice.

[Mechanica]

Who does the MK slide under -> Headbutt noogie follow up work on?

Any specific use for b+hk?

I've been experimenting with headbutt/b+hp and found some interesting priority trades... Mostly against shitty normal characters like T.Hawk though. Does it have viable uses like that? Sometimes after a noogie -> slide I'll use it to trade (especially if it'll land me dat stun) when I think they're gonna try to counter. Not against DP characters though, I'm pretty sure that's a horrible idea.

Any reason to ever use b+mk over b+lk? They look almost the same but I get the feeling back short somehow has more priority? Can anyone confirm?

Also, what do I use c+hp for? I usually end up using c.mp to go under sonic boom/etc for a poke, because c+hp is slower, the same range, and not noticably more powerful(?).

Any noteworthy normals to use against Dictator?

[fatboy]

Who does the MK slide under -> Headbutt noogie follow up work on?

Shoto's
Sagat
Hawk
Fei (less jumping MK)
Cammy( less jumping MP)
Dictator (very strict timing)

You need to be cafrefull against Honda, Gief, Blanka, Vega, DJ, Guile, and Rog.
Many of then have moves that hit the slide.




Any specific use for b+hk?



There are several. Most notably angainst Honda, at the match opening. It beats H-Hands, Head Butt, and recovers before a butt splash can hit.

Check out the yoga KIlling Arts. There some creztive used for it.



I've been experimenting with headbutt/b+hp and found some interesting priority trades... Mostly against shitty normal characters like T.Hawk though. Does it have viable uses like that? Sometimes after a noogie -> slide I'll use it to trade (especially if it'll land me dat stun) when I think they're gonna try to counter. Not against DP characters though, I'm pretty sure that's a horrible idea.

I would not use the head butt as a priority play in ST. There are other moves that would work better IMHO. However, when it does come out and hit... PPL get dizzy.
It is just not how a "safe" Sim would play.

Any reason to ever use b+mk over b+lk? They look almost the same but I get the feeling back short somehow has more priority? Can anyone confirm?

The Back + LK does have more priority.

The only reason to use the MK is if you don't need the extra priority of the lk. It does does 37.5% more damage than the LK.


Also, what do I use c+hp for? I usually end up using c.mp to go under sonic boom/etc for a poke, because c+hp is slower, the same range, and not noticably more powerful(?).

You hit that one nearly 100%. The c. hp has a bit more priority and range on the end of his first, and only does 18% more damage. (Cr. mp does 11% of a life bar, c.hp does 13%)

You only use the c.hp if you need that extra bit of reach and/or that extra bit of damage.

Any noteworthy normals to use against Dictator?
You're going to need them all against a good Dictator.

[ShinAkuma204]

Meaty headbut is pretty hard to counter on wakeup. (at least it is with O. Sim)

I wouldn't abuse it, but if you have hit your opponent with some of those low forwards and somehow knocked them down it is a good option to dizzy them if they try a wakeup reversal.

[R.Kelly]

@fatboy

I just saw your videos for the first time and they were very informative, thank you. The best part of the Blanka vid was the related videos on the side "Rodent Trap", "Crazy Rodent", etc. :rofl:

I look forward to watching any future videos and if I were to vote for the next match ups I'd like to see Chun, Claw, and Dictator.

[Ehonda]

i heard that there is a Japanese video of a Sim totally locking down Dj. To the point the match looks like a 9-1 advantage or worse.

[ShinAkuma204]

i heard that there is a Japanese video of a Sim totally locking down Dj. To the point the match looks like a 9-1 advantage or worse.

Sounds like that Sim player was reading his opponent more than a character advantage.

[Ehonda]

It was some sort of corner trap. Spence told me about it i think.

[fatboy]

Yes, the jab fireball trap. IT destorys DJ. It is late here, I will write a full write upabout it when I wake up. I just wanted to let you know that 'Spence' was not full of it. :wgrin:

[ShinAkuma204]

It was some sort of corner trap. Spence told me about it i think.

The corner is a very bad place to be in ST, especially if your opponent is reading you well.

[fatboy]

The corner is a very bad place to be in ST, especially if your opponent is reading you well.

It really has nothing to do with reading your oppenent. Sim's trap on DJ is purely reactionary at that point. You simpley just watch, ahat ever DJ does, you counter. How ever the tarp does not work if DJ has a super.

Instead a write up, I am working on a vid. I am at home for the holidays. It'll give me something to do.

[Warrior's Dreams]

Yes, the jab fireball trap. IT destorys DJ. It is late here, I will write a full write upabout it when I wake up. I just wanted to let you know that 'Spence' was not full of it. :wgrin:

Could you possibly include this in your video?

[ShinAkuma204]

It really has nothing to do with reading your oppenent. Sim's trap on DJ is purely reactionary at that point. You simpley just watch, ahat ever DJ does, you counter. How ever the tarp does not work if DJ has a super.

Instead a write up, I am working on a vid. I am at home for the holidays. It'll give me something to do.

So you're saying that there is no anticipation needed on Sim's part to make this trap work?

I would be interested in seeing a video of this unbeatable "trap".

[Ehonda]

Yes the corner is a very bad place to be 90% of time. Ehonda for example while playing Vega needs to be in the corner or he gets raped for free.

[fatboy]

So you're saying that there is no anticipation needed on Sim's part to make this trap work?

I would be interested in seeing a video of this unbeatable "trap".

Does Honda need any anticiaption to beat Blanka if he backs his butt to a corner when he has a lead in life... No he just sits, zones with a cr. jab, and head-buts the shit out of any aerial attack, on reaction.

This is indeed a very powerful trap. Seriously, after you throw the fireball you just wait and see what he does. It is purely a reactionary trap.

DJ can't jump over it.

The key to the trap is the fast recovery on Sims Fire ball, block stun, DJ's slow ass jump, and the hit boxes on DJ's jumping attacks.

At the right range, Sim can just pelt out Jab FB's over and over. If DJ manages to get a jump out between hit stuns of the fireballs, no matter the attack, Sim recovers just fast enough to short slide under the attacks and Fierce throw DJ in his landing frames back into the corner. Even is DJ Techs the throw, he going to land on a fireball an reset the trap.

DJ can't SB Sim's fire balls.

At this range DJ can't charge for FB's fast enough to keep pace with Sims, he'll eventual have to block or eat a jab fire ball in the face.


DJ can't FK through it.

None of the Flask kicks will hit Sim a this range. They go through the fireball, cause DJ to land right in front of or right behind Sim, which is met with a Fierce throw back to the corner.

DJ can't slide

Duh, does go under fireballs.

DJ can't sobat kick.

Duh, does go through fireballs.

DJ can't jump str8 up

IF DJ jumps up to avoid the FB, Sim can just throw another fireball. OR if Sim want to be a little bitch he can use far crouching Strong/Feirce as a AA.


--------

The real bitch of this trap is actually getting DJ in the corner with out a super. Against a good DJ player, that is very hard.

Secondly, the feeling of this trap takes a bit to get used to. YOU have to get good at seeing the frames. If you see DJ take to the air you need to make sure it is a jump or FK. Your positioning is very important.

There are ton of videos on the internet with SIM doing this to DJ, However, you never see more than jus the additional jab fire balls, because the DJ players jest keep blocking. This is b/c they know if they do anything their GGPO.

For the record this isn't some bullshit theroy fighter. I have used against many good DJ players. PHil, Afro, and several at Evo. As, I said b4 the difficultly is actuall getting DJ in this situation.

Lastly, my brother has a video capute card that only works at 5 frames/second is the cool with you all?The video may be a little chopy. And, can anyone point to a program that can convert AVI to window media player files?

[ShinAkuma204]

Does Honda need any anticiaption to beat Blanka if he backs his butt to a corner when he has a lead in life... No he just sits, zones with a cr. jab, and head-buts the shit out of any aerial attack, no reaction.

This is indeed a very powerful trap. Seriously, after you throw the fireball you just wait and see what he does. It is purely a reactionary trap.

DJ can't jump over it.

The key to the trap is the fast recovery on Sims Fire ball, block stun, DJ's slow ass jump, and the hit boxes on DJ's jumping attacks.

At the right range, Sim can just pelt out Jab FB's over and over. If DJ manages to get a jump out between hit stuns of the fireballs, no matter the attack, Sim recovers just fast enough to short slide under the attacks and Fierce throw DJ in his landing frames back into the corner. Even is DJ Techs the throw, he going to land on a fireball an reset the trap.

DJ can't SB Sim's fire balls.

At this range DJ can't charge for FB's fast enough to keep pace with Sims, he'll eventual have to block or eat a jab fire ball in the face.


DJ can't FK through it.

None of the Flask kicks will hit Sim a this range. They go through the fireball, cause DJ to land right in front of or right behind Sim, which is met with a Fierce throw back to the corner.

DJ can't slide

Duh, does go under fireballs.

DJ can't sobat kick.

Duh, does go through fireballs.

DJ can't jump str8 up

IF DJ jumps up to avoid the FB, Sim can just throw another fireball. OR if Sim want to be a little bitch he can use far crouching Strong/Feirce as a AA.


--------

The real bitch of this trap is actually getting DJ in the corner with out a super. Against a good DJ player, that is very hard.

Secondly, the feeling of this trap takes a bit to get used to. YOU have to get good at seeing the frames. If you see DJ take to the air you need to make sure it is a jump or FK. Your positioning is very important.

There are ton of videos on the internet with SIM doing this to DJ, However, you never see more than jus the additional jab fire balls, because the DJ players jest keep blocking. This is b/c they no if they do anything their GGPO.

For the record this isn't some bullshit theroy fighter. I have used against many good DJ players. PHil, Afro, and several at Evo. As, I said b4 the difficultly is actuall getting DJ in this situation.

I understand the theory behind it, but I would actually like to see it in action. I appreciate the rundown but a video would allow me to see exactly what is happening.

Lastly, my brother has a video capute card that only works at 5 frames/second is the cool with you all?The video may be a little chopy. And, can anyone point to a program that can convert AVI to window media player files?

What capture card is it? 5 frames/second doesn't sound right for a capture card. Perhaps It may have something to do with the software settings?

Many conversion programs out there, but most are pay for. Not sure about good free ones as they tend to try and load some spyware/malware on your system.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=divx+to+wmv&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[fatboy]

Snip...


The program is called 'camstudio.' I'll cehck out the converter. Thanks for the tip.

[Mechanica]

I understand the theory behind it, but I would actually like to see it in action. I appreciate the rundown but a video would allow me to see exactly what is happening.

Dude just watch Gian videos.

[ShinAkuma204]

Well in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLCREvIFkNA

At 1:23 Buzan (Deejay) is put in the corner by KKY (Sim) with no super. He has no problem getting out and winning the round.

If the trap was so unbeatable I would expect a player like KKY to be aware of it and execute it without any trouble.

If they are so many vids with helpless Deejay's in the corner trapped by Sim, where are they?

[Duck Strong]

I know KKY is good and all, but that probably wasn't some of his better playing.

[ShinAkuma204]

I know KKY is good and all, but that probably wasn't some of his better playing.

Probably not, considering he had an opponent dizzy, then in the corner at 25% life and couldn't close the deal.

[fatboy]

^^^^^

Dude it took me all of 3 seconds (1:26), and one view of the video to see what happened.

Read my post again and watch the video again.

I said "Throw a jab fireball, wait and counter."

KKY broke his own zone. He hit a cr.strong. DJ blocked, the block stun pushed KKY out of range. KKY threw a fire ball from the wrong position to try to maitian pressure and DJ read it and jumped..

The only reason he did a cr.strong their was b/c he thought DJ was going to SB. B/c any other mover dj would do there could have hit Sim. It was a HUGE mistake on KKY's part.

I never said, "Try to 'read' DJ and try some psychic counter."

Here is another way to look at it: If Dhalim can lock a good boxer in a coner with a reactionary trap Why can't he do it to DJ? Just b/c it is harder to find video of it, does mean it doesn't exist.

See the Gian trap in the evo 3 v3 side tourny on CB's cab against Mike Watson... Yeah, Mike Watson... one of the most successful US players ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVkEU11ANME look at min 7.12.

and again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j-vg2QWNpo at 5.45.


I know I said it before... I'll find the vids... There is a great vid showing where a Sim player takes out 3 DJs in a row.

I am tried to make the vid. But I do not have the know how to do so well. The capture is to slow and choppy.

(Can anybody tell point me in a diretion in how to record play through my xbox. I'll get some one to help me. But, I'll need to record it.)

I wrote a whole write up on why it works... I would love to hear why you think it wouldn't? :tup:

[fatboy]

Oh! Here is another example of the Boxer Zone. It is from the Mikado Rambat. It is K (no fucking scrub) vs. Gian; Gian pretty muched used the zone the whole round of round one @ 3.31 and on, and most of round two in parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d11et-4qtsI

[fatboy]

OK. Here is an example o the DJ jab fireball zone. It is fair. It is not the tightest one I have seen, but fair. You see in the VERY first round and VERY last rounds on the video.

I know I have one SOMEWHERE that shows an even better execution of the zone but I am having a very hard time finding it

http://youtube.com/watch?v=m1IpUavS6vc

However, it looks like i need to coorect something... I said there are a ton of videos showing this. I guess I remebered incorrectly, there are only a few videos showing this.

[Warrior's Dreams]

I realize this is somewhat tangential, but as long as were talking about good zoning, here is a vid of Gian owning Guile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztwkM9I4jH4&eurl=http://curryallergy.blogspot.com/

[ShinAkuma204]

^^^^^

Dude it took me all of 3 seconds (1:26), and one view of the video to see what happened.

Read my post again and watch the video again.

I said "Throw a jab fireball, wait and counter."

KKY broke his own zone. He hit a cr.strong. DJ blocked, the block stun pushed KKY out of range. KKY threw a fire ball from the wrong position to try to maitian pressure and DJ read it and jumped..

The only reason he did a cr.strong their was b/c he thought DJ was going to SB. B/c any other mover dj would do there could have hit Sim. It was a HUGE mistake on KKY's part.

I never said, "Try to 'read' DJ and try some psychic counter."

I'm sure KKY did make some mistakes that fight, he did lose after all. The point is if the Deejay zoning was so ironclad, so easy to lockdown, it probably would have happened.

Here is another way to look at it: If Dhalim can lock a good boxer in a coner with a reactionary trap Why can't he do it to DJ?

Deejay has his own projectile, Boxer doesn't.

*snip*

Apples and oranges. Showing vids of Sim zoning a completely different character than the one you inferred is basically irrelevant.

I wrote a whole write up on why it works... I would love to hear why you think it wouldn't? :tup:

I have already, when I mentioned anticipation. You claimed that anticipation wasn't an issue, that the trap was 100% reaction. I asked to see vids so I could judge for myself, to which you haven't been able to provide.

Even in the one vid you did find even after a significant lockdown that Deejay was still able to escape the corner.

Looking at the video you provided there is an obvious reason why the trap wouldn't work as you describe - Deejay has his own projectile. In the area where Sim is pressuring with repeated yoga fires, Deejay can max out every second one or so. That builds meter for Deejay and eventually after some blocked yoga fires, he will have a super.

[fatboy]

I'm sure KKY did make some mistakes that fight, he did lose after all. The point is if the Deejay zoning was so ironclad, so easy to lockdown, it probably would have happened.



Your making a huge assumption here, your assuming KKY never makes a mistake. You can't make a statement like it probably would have happenend. Players make in game mistakes all the time. Probably... is probably, it is denfiately not certainty.



Looking at the video you provided there is an obvious reason why the trap wouldn't work as you describe - Deejay has his own projectile. In the area where Sim is pressuring with repeated yoga fires, Deejay can max out every second one or so. That builds meter for Deejay and eventually after some blocked yoga fires, he will have a super.

Did we watch the same video? The trap DID work. Your playing theroy fighter now... Your max out "every second fireball" theroy doesn't work in realy life. If DJ ever starts to do that, sim gets free hits all over the place on DJ's delay, or at least with trades in Sim's favor.

Learn to play N.Dhalsim.... You're agruing with me.... and you don't even see the flaws in own in your counter point. ANY serious and expereinced Sim player instantly knows where your "every second fireball trap" fails.

Before, I tell you why it wouldn't, I would like to you tell me why you think it would work. If you can make judgement on why it wouldn't work, give the reasons why, not just block every other until you build meter...

Once your done, I will be more than happy to provide the thereory, frame data, hit boxes, and damage trades to prove my point. I will write you a huge book in where it fails.

I have used trap against many good players once I was able to get them in the corner. I don't need to name drop to prove my point. I really don't care if you beleive me or not. The trap works, I have gone to EVO and used it, I played with some great players and used it. I have BEAT some good DJ players using it.

[ShinAkuma204]

Your making a huge assumption here, your assuming KKY never makes a mistake.

Huh???

I'm sure KKY did make some mistakes that fight, he did lose after all.

You can't make a statement like it probably would have happenend. Players make in game mistakes all the time. Probably... is probably, it is denfiately not certainty.

What?

What I am saying is if your theoretical trap was so efficient and brutal it is likely KKY would have applied it there. He could have messed up, but a player of his level shouldn't mess up your awesome trap.

Did we watch the same video?

I'm starting to wonder...

The trap DID work.

It did?

Didn't you say that the Deejay player would be all "GGPO" if he were put in the trap, like he wouldn't escape or something?

Looks to me like he did escape the corner.

Your playing theroy fighter now...

Actually it was you who was playing theory fighter, I simply went along.

Your max out "every second fireball" theroy doesn't work in realy life. If DJ ever starts to do that, sim gets free hits all over the place on DJ's delay, or at least with trades in Sim's favor.

No he doesn't. Deejay can react to Sim too you know. A good Deejay will only throw his Max out on reaction to the Sim yoga fire. As long as the Deejay reflexes are as good as your theory Sim's he should be able to charge a super as I detailed.

Learn to play N.Dhalsim

New Sim's recovery from yoga fire is the same as old Sim.

.... You're agruing with me.... and you don't even see the flaws in own in your counter point. ANY serious and expereinced Sim player instantly knows where your "every second fireball trap" fails.

You're not really making any sense here. For some reason your theory Sim can simply react to everything Deejay does, yet the Deejay doesn't get the same benefit during the match.

Before, I tell you why it wouldn't, I would like to you tell me why you think it would work. If you can make judgement on why it wouldn't work, give the reasons why, not just block every other until you build meter...

I gave you a reason, you didn't like it. Not because it wouldn't work, but because you think that Sim will somehow punish a Deejay who will only Max out on reaction to a Sim yoga fire?

That doesn't even make sense.

Once your done, I will be more than happy to provide the thereory, frame data, hit boxes, and damage trades to prove my point. I will write you a huge book in where it fails.

Please do.

I have used trap against many good players once I was able to get them in the corner. I don't need to name drop to prove my point.

I never asked for any names.

I really don't care if you beleive me or not.

You don't care if I believe you yet you will write a huge book on it?

The trap works, I have gone to EVO and used it, I played with some great players and used it. I have BEAT some good DJ players using it.

I'm sure the trap is effective. Anytime you get an opponent in the corner you can apply very effective pressure.

I'm not saying it isn't effective or useful. I am saying it isn't how you painted it to be. Precisely:


However, you never see more than jus the additional jab fire balls, because the DJ players jest keep blocking. This is b/c they know if they do anything their GGPO.

Obviously you overstated the effectiveness of this trap. It isn't ironclad. It isn't GGPO time. It is effective and tough for Deejay to deal with.

That's it.

[fatboy]

What I am saying is if your theoretical trap was so efficient and brutal it is likely KKY would have applied it there. He could have messed up, but a player of his level shouldn't mess up your awesome trap.

Good players make mistakes all the time. ~AND~ It is not MY awesome trap, I staight ripped if off of a couple japanese tourny videos. I would love to say this is "MY" trap. But it is not. I watched it, I stole it, I studied it, and I have used it a lot. Just because it is not in your kowledge base does not mean it doesn't exist.





Didn't you say that the Deejay player would be all "GGPO" if he were put in the trap, like he wouldn't escape or something?

Looks to me like he did escape the corner.



Your right he did escape. I said that wasn't the best example of the trap but it was pretty close. Please watch the video again: How much life did he lose in the corner? How much life did he have when he finally got out? How fast did he lose the life? Did Sim control the space? Did sim controll the tempo? Did Sim react or anticpate?

The answers are: he lost a good amount of life (about 70~75%), he came out with a little bit of life (~15%), He lost it in about 20 ticks of the counter. Sim controled the space, Sim controled the tempo, 5/5 hits in the zone where reactions to DJ's actions... Sounds like a good trap to me.



Actually it was you who was playing theory fighter, I simply went along.


It is not theory fighter if it actually works. You asked me to explain it and I did.


No he doesn't. Deejay can react to Sim too you know. A good Deejay will only throw his Max out on reaction to the Sim yoga fire. As long as the Deejay reflexes are as good as your theory Sim's he should be able to charge a super as I detailed.

How much block damage is he going to take? How long is a "every other sonic boom" going to take to charge his bar.

Let say that is all that happens. I would gladly take a Sim with 30% more life than a DJ with a full super bar in this match.

Ok. DJ does what you say... And then what? As soon as Sim sees the super, he will just jump back. Is DJ going to chase down Sim? That can be an even faster way for DJ to lose.


You're not really making any sense here. For some reason your theory Sim can simply react to everything Deejay does, yet the Deejay doesn't get the same benefit during the match.


No he doesn't. Not in the same way. Sure DJ may be able to "react" but he fails to controll space, the tempo of the match, or press any advantage, or even damage Sim in any advantageous way..


New Sim's recovery from yoga fire is the same as old Sim.


WTF? I was not talking about his Fire Ball. I do not know how to pLay OLD sim well. Talk to Shirts about that. I am not sure how this trap would would work in all it detail for O.Sim.


I gave you a reason, you didn't like it. Not because it wouldn't work, but because you think that Sim will somehow punish a Deejay who will only Max out on reaction to a Sim yoga fire?



That is what Sim does, at the right distance, and fireball speed, all Sim has to do his hit st. far fierce. If Dj reacts to Sims FB, Sim recovers first, the fireballs cancel, Sim hits DJ in his reocvery. End of story. DJ lose 13% of a life bar.... He will not be doing that for long, if he does, he'll be dead b4 he builds his meter.

Sim can do this with all the fire ball characters at the right distance. Which can be done in the Zone. The fact that you don't factor this in to your "every other FB" counter is what perplexes me.


I never asked for any names.


No you didn't. I didn't give any... and...


You don't care if I believe you yet you will write a huge book on it?

Who said the book would be for you? I am saying I don't care if you don't believe me. 'Writing the book' to disprove your point of view, and is completely exculsive and independant of whether or not I care if you believe me.

I care to disprove your point, I don't care of you believe it. :lovin:



I'm sure the trap is effective. Anytime you get an opponent in the corner you can apply very effective pressure.

I'm not saying it isn't effective or useful. I am saying it isn't how you painted it to be.

Obviously you overstated the effectiveness of this trap. It isn't ironclad. It isn't GGPO time. It is effective and tough for Deejay to deal with.

That's it.

The trap is easy, it is reactionary, and DJ is going to lose a lot of life if not get KOed. That to me sounds like GGPO material to me.

Lastly? Have you ever even tried it? Have you ever even used it in a match? If you haven't even tried it... you have very little right to challange it.

Get together with a friend. Spend sometime trying it out. Play some matches, even if just causual, and then come back and actually bring an expereinced point of view (on the trap) into this discussion about it.

Then maybe you'll see that I am not talking out my ass here. If you get to practice it, try it out, and still problems with it, then we have something to really to debate.

Until then know that I (I would classify myself as a good player) have actually used the trap to beat average, good, and great players all over California. Where do you play? Where have you used it? Are you really sure that it will not work?

[ShinAkuma204]

Good players make mistakes all the time. ~AND~ It is not MY awesome trap, I staight ripped if off of a couple japanese tourny videos. I would love to say this is "MY" trap. But it is not. I watched it, I stole it, I studied it, and I have used it a lot. Just because it is not in your kowledge base does not mean it doesn't exist.

Who said it wasn't in my knowledge base? I simply told you it didn't work as you originally described.

Your right he did escape. I said that wasn't the best example of the trap but it was pretty close. Please watch the video again:

That is not relevant to the discussion. Deejay escaped your previously unescapable trap.

You have exagerated how effective the trap was, believing it to be game over once initiated.

You are wrong.

The answers are: he lost a good amount of life (about 70~75%), he came out with a little bit of life (~15%), He lost it in about 20 ticks of the counter. Sim controled the space, Sim controled the tempo, 5/5 hits in the zone where reactions to DJ's actions... Sounds like a good trap to me.

It is a good trap.

Good, not unbeatable.

It is not theory fighter if it actually works. You asked me to explain it and I did.

So now Deejay can't throw his max outs on reaction to yoga fire? You referred to that tactic as theory fighter, but you can bet it works.

How much block damage is he going to take? How long is a "every other sonic boom" going to take to charge his bar.

He's probably going to take a good bit of block damage, but that scenario is better than sitting in the corner for the entire round.


Ok. DJ does what you say... And then what?

The match proceeds as it would have before Deejay was put into the corner, which would be the point.

No he doesn't. Not in the same way. Sure DJ may be able to "react" but he fails to controll space, the tempo of the match, or press any advantage, or even damage Sim in any advantageous way..

Deejay isn't trying to control space in this scenario, he's trying to get his ass out of the corner and I gave you a way in which that can happen.

WTF? I was not talking about his Fire Ball. I do not know how to pLay OLD sim well. Talk to Shirts about that. I am not sure how this trap would would work in all it detail for O.Sim.

Fatboy, when you are discussing something with another poster you need to actually pay attention to what is being said.

That is what Sim does, at the right distance, and fireball speed, all Sim has to do his hit st. far fierce. If Dj reacts to Sims FB, Sim recovers first, the fireballs cancel, Sim hits DJ in his reocvery. End of story. DJ lose 13% of a life bar.... He will not be doing that for long, if he does, he'll be dead b4 he builds his meter.

I'm not talking about Deejay reacting late to the yoga fire. If Deejay reacts in the same manner and speed that you have your theory Sim reacting at he should be safe from such a tactic.

No you didn't. I didn't give any... and...

Maybe you don't get it. You made a point about not dropping any names, but nobody asked you for any, so your point is basically pointless.

Who said the book would be for you?

You did, right here:


Once your done, I will be more than happy to provide the thereory, frame data, hit boxes, and damage trades to prove my point. I will write you a huge book in where it fails.

Remember what I said earlier about paying attention?

The trap is easy, it is reactionary, and DJ is going to lose a lot of life if not get KOed. That to me sounds like GGPO material to me.

No, you painted it as a trap so dominating that the Deejay was paralyzed with fear and did nothing once initiated. That is GGPO.

What you describe is what I said it was, effective and tough to deal with.

Lastly? Have you ever even tried it? Have you ever even used it in a match? If you haven't even tried it... you have very little right to challange it.

Yes, O. Sim is one of my mains.

Get together with a friend. Spend sometime trying it out. Play some matches, even if just causual, and then come back and actually bring an expereinced point of view (on the trap) into this discussion about it.

I am at least as experienced as you are at ST. That should have been obvious from our last two discussions where I proved to be correct.

[fatboy]

Who said it wasn't in my knowledge base? I simply told you it didn't work as you originally described.

That is not relevant to the discussion. Deejay escaped your previously unescapable trap.

You have exagerated how effective the trap was, believing it to be game over once initiated.

You are wrong.



Dude watch the video... for Christ Sake... put 2 +2 togehter.

Sim stopped throwing the fireball and did the same thing KKY did in the other video. They made the same mistake.

At .23 & .24 He did 2 cr.stongs. He shouldn't do them in the manner in which he was trying to apply them.

And for the 3rd time…. I told you this is not the best example I have seen of it. You keep referencing this video like it is the holy grail.

You keep proclaiming: "He got out! He got out!See! See! He escaped!"

Yeah, I know, he got out... I watched it... I told you it wasn't perfect. Sim made a mistake. If he didn't make it, I going to make the contend and make the assumption he would have killed DJ in the corner.

You asked for some examples somewhere in some post back, and I found you one to at least give you some idea of what it looked like.




So now Deejay can't throw his max outs on reaction to yoga fire? You referred to that tactic as theory fighter, but you can bet it works.



Are you taking about anticipation or reaction?... If DJ does it on reaction solely, there is a high % get hit in the face with the fireball.

DJ's Fires ball start up is too slow to do it solely on reaction, and never get hit. I would believe Chun Li's fireball maybe, DJ, no way.

Again, I will ask, have you ever, actually tried this in real life versus a real player, with N.Sim?

Yes or No?




He's probably going to take a good bit of block damage, but that scenario is better than sitting in the corner for the entire round.

He is going to take a lot of block damage.... Sim will easily ge