Sengoku 3 needs love

[Lebowsk1]

When I ask people to name their favourite brawler game, all I hear is Final Fight and SOR2 getting all the props as the pinnacles of the genre (and maybe one genius repping Guardian Heroes). But if you've played Sengoku Legends: 2001 (aka Sengoku 3) maybe you'll understand why I say this is the finest brawling game ever.

I don't know if it's against any rules to discuss emulation here... so lets just say I run this thing on my own personal Neo Geo. But it really is the shit. The combo system rivals the Tony Hawks games for complexity. See, you get quite a lot of time to land your next hit in sequence so combos can extend to over 100 with good play (my record is something like 110). There's also a ton of juggling involved with the combo system, which is rare for scrolling fighters. While you are waiting for new enemies to arrive you can use pieces of scenery to carry the combo over.

And the learning curve for the game proper is excellent. I can currently get to the beginning of Stage 5 on 1 credit. The game is totally fair and if you die you never feel cheated (unlike in FF and SOR2 which could be hella cheap).

I'm just trying to single-handedly get some kind of scene going for this game.

To any haters who may question whether this thread belongs here: if Super Smash Bros counts as a 'fighting game', surely brawlers do too.

If there's any interest I'll type out some combo tips, tactics and level strategies etc.

[Shinto]

Hmmm......from my understanding its not a fightning game.Or is it?

[Shadow Blanka]

The Sengoku 3 I played is not a fighting game but it is great. My best combo is around 160 and I can almost beat the game with 1 credit.

[Overworld]

I loooove Sengoku 3, but I'd still put SoR2 over it, personally many of the SoR2 tunes were really good, so memorable it's comparable to the gameplay experience, which was in itself good. (not as in depth as Sengoku 3's system, but nonetheless enjoyable)

[Windlord0]

Yeah it is probably the most advanced brawler ever, but that's because it is much more recent. I love the game, but SOR is still the classic.

[Lebowsk1]

Shinto: Well it's a side-scrolling fighter, or brawler, or beatemup or whatever you want to call it. But I consider this genre a really close cousin of the one-on-one fighter, and there's surely nowhere better to discuss it than here (although I'd love to find a site with a forum dedicated to brawler games).

Good to see it has fans.

My best combo is around 160 and I can almost beat the game with 1 credit.
If you're that close to completing it on 1 credit you have to cross that final hurdle and do it! What's giving your problems, the final boss? Right now I'm just getting a real feel for the enemies that appear on stage 5 (killer chickens, meat-cleaver throwers, super ninja chicks, dogs) and of course the boss. Who is awesome. One of his moves involves throwing about 5 projectiles which then slowly bounce around the screen. Dodging them makes you feel like you're suddenly playing a vertical shootemup.

Sengoku 3 moment: stopping the fire phoenix bird's swoop attack with a stiff jab.

Also gotta love juggling those frogs (ribbit)

I loooove Sengoku 3, but I'd still put SoR2 over it, personally many of the SoR2 tunes were really good, so memorable it's comparable to the gameplay experience, which was in itself good. (not as in depth as Sengoku 3's system, but nonetheless enjoyable)

Ok Overworld, first off respect to you for having good taste in brawlers. They are both great games, but here are some of the main reasons I think S3 beats SoR2:

- the difficulty curve.
SoR2 is ridiculously easy for the first few levels only to become unfairly hard later on. Sengoku 3 just gradually ups the difficulty in a way that makes it a joy to master.

- enemy throws
Ever since playing Final Fight 2 I've noticed that enemies who can throw in brawler games are a problem to the engine. There's a musclehead enemy type in FF2 who has an amazing striking AND grappling game. It's broken. Ninja's are the same in SoR2. It gets slapstick when your character gets thrown around constantly (although, stupidly, this can help you as you gain invincibility and take no damage from saved throws). I think S3 is all the better for not having a grappler AI enemy type.

- graphics
No brainer. S3 is the finest looking Neo Geo game I've seen, alongside MotW. SoR2 can be hard to look at afterwards (except Blaze of course).

And we agree that the game system of S3 is superior in general.

So while I do agree SoR2 has the edge with regards the music (and maybe also sound effects), that just isnt enough. SoR2 is blatantly a very good game but it aint as great as S3. I know this is controversial to say, everybody worships SoR2, but S3 is like the natural evolution on from it.

It's interesting also to play Gaia Crusaders, an earlier game by Noise Factory. You can see many of the S3 features in a rougher form, it's almost like a prototype.

Also, people post up your best "Beat Bonus" (correct name for what I've been calling a "combo" here) and your one-credit-point (and also used character/s) and we'll get some sort of S3 ranking battle thing going on. Shadow has skills, but now I've got targets to aim for...

Knives > Bombs > Shurikens > Plates

[Lebowsk1]

Yeah it is probably the most advanced brawler ever, but that's because it is much more recent. I love the game, but SOR is still the classic.
True, you do have to respect the old guard for paving the way, but just because a game is newer doesnt mean it'll be better. Try playing brawler Crystal of Kings, which came out the same year as S3. It's pretty bad.

Brawler tiers:

God: Sengoku 3
Top: Streets of Rage 2, Final Fight, Golden Axe: Revenge of Death Adder, Guardian Heroes
Upper-mid: Vendetta, The Punisher, Battle Circuit, Cadillacs and Dinosaurs, Aliens vs Predator
Lower-mid: Sailor Moon R (SNES), Brawl Brothers, Renegade/Target Renegade (I've only played the ZX Spectrum versions though)
Bottom: Peace Keepers, Crystal of Kings, Oriental Legend

Any other recomendations welcome, and I should really get round to playing more of the D+D games.

[Dark Geese]

What about Ninja Warriors the Arcade and Ninja Warriors Again?

[Overworld]

- the difficulty curve.
SoR2 is ridiculously easy for the first few levels only to become unfairly hard later on. Sengoku 3 just gradually ups the difficulty in a way that makes it a joy to master.


Eh, I never found the difficulty curve to be all that hard, as for many levels your fighting the same sorts of guys, just in different combinations, the combinations become more complex, but the types of situations your in allows you to acclimate accordingly.


- enemy throws
Ever since playing Final Fight 2 I've noticed that enemies who can throw in brawler games are a problem to the engine. There's a musclehead enemy type in FF2 who has an amazing striking AND grappling game. It's broken. Ninja's are the same in SoR2. It gets slapstick when your character gets thrown around constantly (although, stupidly, this can help you as you gain invincibility and take no damage from saved throws). I think S3 is all the better for not having a grappler AI enemy type.


Well, personally I like grappling characters, they are different and you have to fight them differently. Enemies often have abilities that the main characters don't even have (projectiles, grenades, etc) so giving them an ability the main character also has doesn't hurt them all that much to moi.

Also remember, whenever a brawler becomes hard, use the all mighty jump kick. It can save you from tons of situations in most brawlers. (The guys who can throw you in SoR2, including bosses, eat kicks like they're going out of style.)


- graphics
No brainer. S3 is the finest looking Neo Geo game I've seen, alongside MotW. SoR2 can be hard to look at afterwards (except Blaze of course).


Yeah, it's hands down for S3, but I always weigh graphics with the least importance. Usually as long as the graphics don't get the way of the gameplay experience, it's good to me. While I certainly enjoy a pretty looking game, this isn't a category I make or break any games with.

So while Sengoku 3 is certainly more fleshed out I would say, it fails to make the same ambience and feeling that playing SoR2 does. SoR2 is just cool in little ways, I mean Skate? A kid who can get on people's shoulders and pound on their head? It's amusing in ways that Sengoku lacks, becuase the personality of Sengoku doesn't shine through as well. (It's pretty, and plays well, but leaves no distinct taste in your mouth.)

[Lebowsk1]

Broke my beat bonus last night by racking up a 157 combo (woot!). It was performed on the first rooftop fight of Japan Stage. You have two big water tanks you can use to easily link hits together while waiting for enemies to spawn, and the rooftop is a small, walled-in area so cheap infinites are easy to get going (punch-dash(juggle)-dash kick, rinse and repeat). The key to the big, impractical combos is to leave your weapon and specials alone.

Shadow Blanka: I need specifics! You say your record is "around 160" and you can "almost beat the game" on a single credit. We need exact scores and stages, people! Yarrgh! Feel the brawling fever!!"

Still can't get beyond Stage 5 on one credit but seeing as Stage 6 is the final one I'm quite happy with that for now.
Eh, I never found the difficulty curve to be all that hard, as for many levels your fighting the same sorts of guys, just in different combinations, the combinations become more complex, but the types of situations your in allows you to acclimate accordingly.
Firstly, you are only addressing one part of my criticism as I also mentioned that the game is also too easy for too long.

But maybe I'm being a bit rash with saying it's too hard... I do ok, can perhaps make it to the end boss on one credit with Blaze in the hardest setting outside of Mania (although I'll have to play it again and check) but that involves losing 8 or 9 lives in the process.

I don't know, I guess all I'm saying is when I take damage in Sengoku 3 I literally *always* curse myself for making an error, while sometimes in SoR2, when a Ninja throws me forward, unlocking a vast horde of new badguys, I just curse the game. But I cannot emphasise how great I think SoR2 is. If it wasnt for the throwing badguys problem (the ninjas and thai boxers being the main problem) I don't think the learning curve would be an issue.
Well, personally I like grappling characters, they are different and you have to fight them differently. Enemies often have abilities that the main characters don't even have (projectiles, grenades, etc) so giving them an ability the main character also has doesn't hurt them all that much to moi.
Play Final Fight 2 with Maki and get back to me. I thought the game was awesomely underrated (the graphics are stunning) right up until the grappler dudes came in and spoilt it.
Also remember, whenever a brawler becomes hard, use the all mighty jump kick. It can save you from tons of situations in most brawlers. (The guys who can throw you in SoR2, including bosses, eat kicks like they're going out of style.)
Well that's true, a jump-straight-up attack from Blaze or Max is pretty good, especially for bosses... but really I don't want to have to be jumping around landing knockdown kicks to get any success, it just becomes repetitious. (oh hey, did I mention the muscleheads in FF2 could *BLOCK* too?!)

I'd settle for maybe a compromise, like... the AI badguys have a throw with some startup, like the classic "throw your hands up in the air before running forward to grab" move of the kind 'Gief and Clark are known for. Not just insta-grab, that just seems cheap to me (the main character is allowed a little cheapness as he/she is so outnumbered, but the AI has no excuse).
So while Sengoku 3 is certainly more fleshed out I would say, it fails to make the same ambience and feeling that playing SoR2 does. SoR2 is just cool in little ways, I mean Skate? A kid who can get on people's shoulders and pound on their head? It's amusing in ways that Sengoku lacks, becuase the personality of Sengoku doesn't shine through as well. (It's pretty, and plays well, but leaves no distinct taste in your mouth.)
Well, Falcon is basically Galford (jeez I just noticed it's almost an anagram) and the other ninja guy is very reminiscent of Haomaru (sp?), and generally the character designs, unlike the animation quality, seem a little uninspired (still pretty damn good though). But yeah, the other games in the top tier have the edge on S3 when it comes to character design and general charisma.

And while I'm on it I have one other very minor problem with Sengoku 3...

The split area at the train station with the upper platform and the lower tracks. When I first arrived there, and saw the train hurtling by, I assumed it'd be the old classic "when the train lines rumble, get the hell off the track!" deal. But no. No train, no enemys climbing out back on to the platform, nothing.

I tell you what, I just wish these games would have stayed popular because to have a game with an engine like S3 crossed with the charisma of SoR2 would be a glorious thing indeed.

So hey, everyone get playing and posting and if you have any problems with anything killing you before the middle of Stage 5 I can probably help. The frog-man boss (with gun) used to give me trouble but then I noticed he has a ton of lag after firing. If you do a smart-bomb to kill the frogs (they have low constitution, it'll take them all out in one blast) you can empty jump his shots and take your time with combo of choice (mine is usually, with Falcon: jab- jab - jab - slash - punch - slash - slash - kick - dashing special move [if I have meter, if not I'll substitue the kick for a slash-uppercut] )

I want to see a video on Youtube of a One-Life Sengoku 3 ALL CLEAR! Who will be the first to produce it?...

[Satomiblood]

When I ask people to name their favourite brawler game, all I hear is Final Fight and SOR2 getting all the props as the pinnacles of the genre (and maybe one genius repping Guardian Heroes). But if you've played Sengoku Legends: 2001 (aka Sengoku 3) maybe you'll understand why I say this is the finest brawling game ever.

I don't know if it's against any rules to discuss emulation here... so lets just say I run this thing on my own personal Neo Geo. But it really is the shit. The combo system rivals the Tony Hawks games for complexity. See, you get quite a lot of time to land your next hit in sequence so combos can extend to over 100 with good play (my record is something like 110). There's also a ton of juggling involved with the combo system, which is rare for scrolling fighters. While you are waiting for new enemies to arrive you can use pieces of scenery to carry the combo over.

And the learning curve for the game proper is excellent. I can currently get to the beginning of Stage 5 on 1 credit. The game is totally fair and if you die you never feel cheated (unlike in FF and SOR2 which could be hella cheap).

I'm just trying to single-handedly get some kind of scene going for this game.

To any haters who may question whether this thread belongs here: if Super Smash Bros counts as a 'fighting game', surely brawlers do too.

If there's any interest I'll type out some combo tips, tactics and level strategies etc.

Tis a fine brawler, but it ain't no fighter. I'm a fan of a lot of brawlers from the TMNT series to Sengoku 3. SNK/Playmore needs to come out with more of the same.

[Windlord0]

I went back and played this last night and god damn was that last boss impossible. It took me several credits to beat just him. It was a lot of fun, switching all the modes felt like little different metagames.

I also tried sengoku 2.... and what the fuck was that. I can play as a dog for some reason, but they all play the same. Was it even made by the same team.

I would love to see a one credit play through, but I could never do it. As soon as I unlock the two other characters I want to play as one of them, so I just throw my lives away to switch to them. For some reason I like them better. I would like to see a vid of a 150+ hit combo, because that's just crazy.

[Bellerophon]

I've been saying for years that Sengoku 3 was the best damn brawler ever made. Glad to see someone else finally saying the same thing.

[hanz0]

i played it when it got emulated a couple of years ago and i instantly loved it, i really like the game, the feel and the music is pretty good too, too bad not that many people apreciate this game. its been one of my top favorite games every since.

[Virtua_Leon]

funny i allways found sengoku3 very stale and plain i thought sengoku2 was alot more fun, Knights of valor is a good one as is vendetta final fight 3 and of course D&D shadow over mystira whatever is was called

[bloodriot]

If you like juggles,

You should try Gaia Crusaders, Vamp 1/2 (works better in a older version of MAME 74 I think), Legend of Heros *new* too MAME and very nice and Guardians of Denjin Makai (a Captain Commando wannabe imho with juggles not to bad actually but it feels a bit floaty for some reason maybe it's better 4 palyers?)

Sengoku 3 doesn't nothing fer me sure is pretty though, but I don't get enough gameplay umf from it. I give it a 7/10..... or so

Give me Super Double Dragon, Crime Fighters 2, Bare Knuckle 3 or Golden Axe Arcade over S3 any day of the week.

[Lebowsk1]

I think you guys just arent playing it right.

[thedude.com]

what about spikeout ?

[Sinistar71]

what about spikeout?

[Satomiblood]

Sengoku 3's actually a good game. Here's my Top 5 list:

1. Alien vs Predator
2. Sengoku 3
3. Streets of Rage 2
4. Final Fight
5. Streets of Rage 3

I don't count any of the TMNT or X-Men games because they weren't as deep.

[Lebowsk1]

Sengoku 3 fans head over to the "Other Games" forum, to the "Scrolling Fighting Games" thread. I'm posting up some Sengoku 3 tactics and strategies and would love feedback! :lovin:

[Zakuta]

Sengoku 3 is a great game - very diverse gameplay for a beat-em-up. Like God Hand, it's hard, but fair. =p

[dogberry]

x-men really shouldn't be lumped together with the simpsons or TMNT brawlers. It's a huge improvement over all of them. Still not as good as SOR2 or some of the capcom brawlers, but certainly heads and shoulders above the other konami brawlers.

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into the "scrolling brawler" thread that already exists. Carry on.

[bloodriot]

Legend of Heros is pretty cool, check it out!