Your Opinions about Hugo Chavez

[Mark Beast]

discuss. tyrant? dictator? or humanitarian? revolutionary?

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/chavez-goes-after-bush-again/20060921205009990005
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2006/09/22/devil_in_disguise/
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/23/books/23chomsky.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/21/chavez.ny/index.html

also, why is it so wrong for chavez to bash bush? what is so bad about what he said? why are all these democrats trying to play both sides (the republican side and the democrat side)? why are ppl scared to be liberal and say what they think? why does our govt hate chavez so much? are they scared that he is telling the truth????

bonus:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/21/cnna.ahmedinejad/index.html

[blue_J]

(AHVB)

He's cool. He isn't a punk so the Bush Administration hates him while the mainstream media tries to demonize him. He's openly stated that he beleives that criminal factions of the U.S. government may have been involved in 9/11, That he isnt a whore for Big Oil and has survived a CIA led coup.

Chavez has more ball sthan your average leader.

[Return of Shiki]

discuss. tyrant? dictator? or humanitarian? revolutionary?

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/chavez-goes-after-bush-again/20060921205009990005
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2006/09/22/devil_in_disguise/
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/23/books/23chomsky.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/21/chavez.ny/index.html

also, why is it so wrong for chavez to bash bush? what is so bad about what he said? why are all these democrats trying to play both sides (the republican side and the democrat side)? why are ppl scared to be liberal and say what they think? why does our govt hate chavez so much? are they scared that he is telling the truth????

bonus:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/21/cnna.ahmedinejad/index.html

Speaking as someone who has family in Venezuela, fuck you.
Fuck you up your gay leftist ass.
My family and many others live in fear and oppression everyday while all you Liberal fags can think about how cool he is because he doesn't like Bush.
In before lock.

[Raz0r]

This reminds me of the earlier hatred towards Fidel Castro. From my understand of past political leaders in Latin America (from Mexico to Dominican Republic to Cuba) is that they get drunk with power. Castro had the means to make his country as sturdy as China but he fucked up. Hugo Chavez currently has a lot to offer, especially since Venezuela now has oil on their side. With the help of China, Cuba, and Bolivia Chavez can use his new resources to focus on building a strong country and not to bash Bush. No one really gives a fuck. Well I know I don't.

He only hates Bush because Bush shits on him any chance he gets. It can get aggrivating when someone is always downing you but Chavez is going to have to suck it up and move on. I don't want this trend of shit Latin leaders continuing.

[Satomiblood]

His name is pretty badass.

[Mark Beast]

Speaking as someone who has family in Venezuela, fuck you.
Fuck you up your gay leftist ass.
My family and many others live in fear and oppression everyday while all you Liberal fags can think about how cool he is because he doesn't like Bush.
In before lock.

what razor said. and a fuck you goes out towards you. sorry for your fam, but i know a lot of ppl here that got the shaft during the katrina response, and my ex's mother is in fallujah, so...you got ppl right here in the u.s. that live in oppression and fear. and i don't think chavez is "cool" because he doesn't like bush at all. so what. i admire some of his policies, like castro by the way, and think that the u.s. should actually look at the whole picture instead of a good 20% of it. i also admire that he speaks his mind instead of going with wherever the wind blows. its complete bullshit that we have a two party system here that acts like a one party system. you have republicans, and then you have..."republicans."
i guess you liked getting raped in the ass by our current administrations policies?

[colguile]

His name is pretty badass.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That's what I'm saying.

That's a pretty cool name to have.

[Shankar]

(AHVB)
Chavez has more ball sthan your average leader.^^^co-sign


I dont really know Hugo's politics... but I have to agree 100% with what he said at the UN.

Dub is a murderer, and terrorist!

Hugo has the balls to say it like it is, and isnt intimidated by the "North American Empire". I am a latin American and have seen the Untited States stick their noses in more than one situation. It's about time somebody stood up that terrorist.

Bin Ladden? hahahah... yeah right! ...Bush nocked down the towers!


I stand next to Chavez, Fidel, El Chè Guevara, Sandino and everyone else that stands up to the pushovers...

[Stylistics]

my opinion: attention whore

[Return of Shiki]

what razor said. and a fuck you goes out towards you. sorry for your fam, but i know a lot of ppl here that got the shaft during the katrina response, and my ex's mother is in fallujah, so...you got ppl right here in the u.s. that live in oppression and fear. and i don't think chavez is "cool" because he doesn't like bush at all. so what. i admire some of his policies, like castro by the way, and think that the u.s. should actually look at the whole picture instead of a good 20% of it. i also admire that he speaks his mind instead of going with wherever the wind blows. its complete bullshit that we have a two party system here that acts like a one party system. you have republicans, and then you have..."republicans."
i guess you liked getting raped in the ass by our current administrations policies?

I don't give a shit one way or another about our current administration.
Try living in Venezuela you dumb spoiled American fuck before you start praising a dictator.

How can you even compare slow Katrina response to a dictator?
Katrina was a goddamn uncontrollable force of Nature. Chavez is a man.

How can you compare Venezuela citizens who had no choice in Chavez coming to power to American military people who VOLUNTEER to join the army and go to Iraq (not knocking the troops...just saying that joining the army is a choice, having your country overrun by a dictator is not).

Even you live in "opression and fear" in America you still have much more freedom and choice than 95% of the world's population.

95% of the world has REAL problems and here you have your head up your ass crying about Bush and the 2-party system.

Go choke yourself, you waste of carbon atoms.

[Gumbercules]

^^^co-sign


I dont really know Hugo's politics... but I have to agree 100% with what he said at the UN.

Dub is a murderer, and terrorist!

Hugo has the balls to say it like it is, and isnt intimidated by the "North American Empire". I am a latin American and have seen the Untited States stick their noses in more than one situation. It's about time somebody stood up that terrorist.

Bin Ladden? hahahah... yeah right! ...Bush nocked down the towers!


I stand next to Chavez, Fidel, El Chè Guevara, Sandino and everyone else that stands up to the pushovers...
:rolleyes:

[Mark Beast]

I don't give a shit one way or another about our current administration.
Try living in Venezuela you dumb spoiled American fuck before you start praising a dictator.first off, you don't know my social status or where i've been or where i'm from. you don't know my background or what i've been through, so stop making an ass out of yourself and pulling facts from that cunt between your legs that you claim is a dick.
How can you even compare slow Katrina response to a dictator?
Katrina was a goddamn uncontrollable force of Nature. Chavez is a man.

How can you compare Venezuela citizens who had no choice in Chavez coming to power to American military people who VOLUNTEER to join the army and go to Iraq (not knocking the troops...just saying that joining the army is a choice, having your country overrun by a dictator is not).i'm not comparing, per se, but i am saying that bush isn't a saint either. he doesn't give a shit about ppl on the bottom (or even the middle, really) of the social ladder in our country. i don't know all of what chavez does in his country, but i do know that every speech he makes in ours is filled with truth about the way bush and his administration runs this country. i do agree with some policies chavez has. and like you said, katrina was an uncontrollable force of nature, but man new beforehand that it was coming, and didn't do shit about it before or after.

tell that kind of response to the ppl in cuba. count how many deaths from hurricanes, aka "uncontrollable forces of nature" occur in cuba. look at the response cuba's government has towards hurricanes hitting cuba.

also, you have a small percentage that volunteer for the army because of the iraq situation and a growing number of soldiers that are already there that hate it and no its wrong to even be over there. you have more ppl that volunteered before 2003, because of 9/11. i was in 12th grade when 9/11 happened, and i remember a few ppl from class joining the military because of what happened and being proud that they did. you think they're happy now? i've been to walter reid and i've seen the 18-23 year olds that come back missing their arms, legs, or that come back blind, etc. for a war that is unjust. they did not sign on the dotted line for that but because they signed on that line 5 years ago, they had to go.

also add the fact that a lot of recruitment takes place in places where ppl feel like thats their only way out of POVERTY and oppressive conditions.

i'm on the phone right now, so i have to answer the rest of your questions, later, but they will be answered.

[Debaser]

So it's popular to like despotic dictators now? A new trend perhaps?

[Mark Beast]

Even you live in "opression and fear" in America you still have much more freedom and choice than 95% of the world's population.

95% of the world has REAL problems and here you have your head up your ass crying about Bush and the 2-party system.

Go choke yourself, you waste of carbon atoms.

also, adding on to what i said above this quote, i'm under the impression that america was funding the oligarchy (sp?) that caused most of the poverty in venezuela over the past few years and that there was a coup de tat because of that which is why chavez is in office as we debate over this issue.

oppression and fear is oppression and fear, period. doesn't matter who is more oppressed. americans face real problems too, like the policies they are inflicting on other nations, and the blind support of nations that oppress ppl. these problems affect everyday life. going into another country and enforcing your beliefs on them has consequences, and we're seeing that everyday now.
and i've lived in europe before so i'm not just thinking like an american that hasn't ever been anywhere except here. our 2 party system is complete garbage and needs to be reformed, PERIOD. conservatives aren't looking at both sides, they live in their lily white, naiive little world and think that if you don't think like them, you aren't an american, you're unpatriotic and don't know what you're talking about, and liberals are too scared to speak their minds. democrats are a bunch of pussies right now, pussifying america. the debate on the 2 party system and what can be done to make it better goes much deeper than that...thats another thread.

i'll let you digest that. i know its a long paragraph that might be hard to read, but you should be used to digesting long and hard things.

[aiy1tm]

Shiki is basically right.

And a lot of people don't seem to understand what conservatives/liberals are.

[Mark Beast]

elaborate.
bonus:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/category/a-look-back-at-katrina/

http://www.crooksandliars.com/category/iraq/

[Raz0r]

"Wait, you have a different opinion than I?! HAVE AT YOU!"

[white shadow]

I think he's a hypocrite and a thief who has stolen the homes and lands of many hardworking farmers who have owned their property for several generations for his "national humanitarian plans", which only seems to benefit himself.

Hell, he even destroyed some of these farmowners deeds held in repositories so he could state that they don't have any legal proof of ownership. And he stole land from people who owned land before legal documents for land ownership were created.

Hugo Chavez also loves to hear himself talk, making his own 12 hour programs and speeches that makes Ron Jeremy's self-fellatio seem more like humble gesture.

Funny how we still get oil from him though.:bluu:

[Mark Beast]

opinions on the leader of Iran while we're at it? anybody have a link to the letter that he wrote bush?

[Muff Daddy]

Speaking as someone who has family in Venezuela, fuck you.
Fuck you up your gay leftist ass.
My family and many others live in fear and oppression everyday while all you Liberal fags can think about how cool he is because he doesn't like Bush.
In before lock.

what a big baby you are. :rolleyes:

you never gave an actual opinion regarding the topic. all you did was say "fuck you" a bunch to motoki. since you have family in Venezuela you should have a more informed opinion than any of us, right? so how about you try to elucidate some of the pertinent facts instead of throwing an e-tantrum?

[white shadow]

opinions on the leader of Iran while we're at it? anybody have a link to the letter that he wrote bush?

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a hypocrite also who spends time writing long letters that makes sense to him, when presented to Bush. But if that same letter was addressed to him he would be treat it like reading from a mirror... upside down. Anything coming from a man who said the Holocaust was a myth deserves no consideration.

Both piggies can wallow in their mirky filth of ignorance and hypocrisy.

[Raz0r]

Funny how we still get oil from him though.:bluu:
We do?
elucidate

What?

[Muff Daddy]

What?

http://m-w.com/dictionary/elucidate

[white shadow]

We do

"Venezuela supplies up to 15% of US oil imports and the US purchases up to 60% of Venezuela's oil output. "


What?

I surmise that it means to make clear, easy to understand... something like that.


Ninja-Edit: I guess Tuffie got it first, at least I wasn't wrong.:razzy:

[Return of Shiki]

i don't know all of what chavez does in his country

Then shut up.


what a big baby you are. :rolleyes:

you never gave an actual opinion regarding the topic. all you did was say "fuck you" a bunch to motoki. since you have family in Venezuela you should have a more informed opinion than any of us, right? so how about you try to elucidate some of the pertinent facts instead of throwing an e-tantrum?

Pertinent facts: your mom stars in scat porn.

[Raz0r]

Disputing facts is something grown-ups do. Please leave that out of SRK.

[Lantis]

yeah right! ...Bush nocked down the towers!

Wow, Bush must have Super Saiyajin powers, HE CAN KNOCK DOWN BUILDINGS FROM AFAR, PPL!

And you live in New England? If you have so much beef with "pushovers", GTFO.

[WasFemto]

Hugo Chavez is the greates human being alive.

[archetype]

I was about to say he has a cool name but someone already said that.

[Muff Daddy]

Speaking as someone who has family in Venezuela, fuck you.

Fuck you up your gay leftist ass.

My family and many others live in fear and oppression everyday while all you Liberal fags can think about how cool he is because he doesn't like Bush.


Try living in Venezuela you dumb spoiled American fuck before you start praising a dictator.

Go choke yourself, you waste of carbon atoms.

Pertinent facts: your mom stars in scat porn.

:rolleyes:

someone ban this guy pls...

[Return of Shiki]

On what grounds?

This is the typical flow of SRK political debate, and the reason why we're not allowed to make them in the first place.

[WasFemto]

Hugo Chavez owns the shit of of Shiki's family :rofl: :clap:

[Return of Shiki]

Hugo Chavez owns the shit of of Shiki's family :rofl: :clap:

Well half of them, at least. :confused:

[P. Gorath]

so venezuela was all candy and roses before chavez came in?

[Muff Daddy]

On what grounds?

on these grounds. (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3366517&postcount=30)

This is the typical flow of SRK political debate, and the reason why we're not allowed to make them in the first place.

...and then you have the nerve to make a comment about the "typical flow of SRK political debate". this isn't the "typical flow" at all. in fact, you're the biggest obstacle to rational debate right now. and i'm STILL waiting for you to tell us all something we should know about the topic. but all you do is type "fuck you" over and over again and attack people for no reason. it like you're lashing out at people simply because your family lives under a dictator.

[Wolfgang McFierce]

How come the moment we post a short ass post that says "fuck bush" or "fuck republicans" it's ok? No one complains. Return of Shiki is right. This is how political discussions always end up.

[Mark Beast]

he's not helping the discussion any by doing what he's doing, though. thats the problem. i'm open to hear info on the inside as far as what goes on in venezuela from a person that has family from there. post away. posting "fuck you, you don't understand" doesn't help us to understand.

[Muff Daddy]

How come the moment we post a short ass post that says "fuck bush" or "fuck republicans" it's ok? No one complains. Return of Shiki is right. This is how political discussions always end up.

no. Shiki fucked the thread up by himself. lets retrace the steps shall we?

discuss. tyrant? dictator? or humanitarian? revolutionary?

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/chavez-goes-after-bush-again/20060921205009990005
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2006/09/22/devil_in_disguise/
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/23/books/23chomsky.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/21/chavez.ny/index.html

also, why is it so wrong for chavez to bash bush? what is so bad about what he said? why are all these democrats trying to play both sides (the republican side and the democrat side)? why are ppl scared to be liberal and say what they think? why does our govt hate chavez so much? are they scared that he is telling the truth????

bonus:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/21/cnna.ahmedinejad/index.html

All motoki did was ask a bunch of questions. Shiki skipped over the bolded portion to post the following:

Speaking as someone who has family in Venezuela, fuck you.
Fuck you up your gay leftist ass.
My family and many others live in fear and oppression everyday while all you Liberal fags can think about how cool he is because he doesn't like Bush.
In before lock.

so motoki can't have an opinion because his family lives under Chavez? :confused: Shiki pissed all over the thread and then started complaining about how political threads always end up smelling like piss. he is wrong.

[Return of Shiki]

Well, my attempt to overreact and kill the thread and debate quickly seems to have made it stronger.

In which case, I'll propose a rational question for Motoki:

Why do you praise Chavez for doing most of the same things Bush has been censured for?
For example...Chavez twisted his country's constitution in expanding his current term and will most likely try to twist it in getting "re-elected" for a third term.
Like the US, Venezuela's current constitution limits anyone from holding more than 2 terms in office. There is a real fear among liberals that Bush is going to do something similar to what Chavez is already doing in prolonging his removal from office. So what makes Chavez any better than Bush?

P. Gorath is right in that Venezuela is just as bad as before. Like with most South American leaders, Chavez is no better or worse than Castro, Noriega, or even the Venezuelan leaders who preceeded him. That's the way it seems to work in Latin America, when a leader gets too corrupt, rebel and put someone else in his place who is alright at first but eventually will become just as bad.
So it's perhaps not appropriate to single him out, but to call him a revolutionary just because he tried to oust another corrupt leader before he became oneself is ridiculous.

[maxx]

its getting retarded in mass...their talking about taking down the citgo sign because of him..that fuckin sign is ancient..was here before me and i hoped till i leave. i feel at home when i see that sign..now its a political debate..wtf?

[Lantis]

I :rofl: at Hugo Chavez' speech today where he said he was afraid that Bush might plan killing him. What, first he calls him the devil and now he cries like a pussy? What a wuss.... :rolleyes:

[Shankar]

Wow, Bush must have Super Saiyajin powers, HE CAN KNOCK DOWN BUILDINGS FROM AFAR, PPL!


Fuck super saying powers... this nigga has powers beyond that! Goku aint got shit on Bush.

...but seriously, you can believe that Bin Ladden knocked down the towers all you want. It's pretty clear, that 2 airplains CAN NOT! knock down a building the size and structure of the WTC. Specially when most of the fuel that "melted the structure of the building and made it collapse" it's clearly seen burn in the air when the plane hit the buildin.
...there were explosives placed in both towers and even the other building down the block was destroid... but no planes hit that building... hmmm. I wonder why...

do your homework bub!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6545313046180631815


And you live in New England? If you have so much beef with "pushovers", GTFO.

I dont have a problem with this coutnry, it's people or it's culture. Its the tyrants that run it sometimes that fucks shit up!
The United States leaders have always tried to debo my home country(Nicaragua) as well as other nations accross the world. Matter of fact we had a tyrant in office during the 60's & 70's working for the US. We had to have a revolution so we didnt become another Puerto Rico.
The US "Bought" 2 of our Islands and offered them to Colombia in exchange for Panama's freedom to become it's own nation. In exchange the US got the right to the Panama Canal for X amount of years...
I had beef with Raegan back in the 80's. Then Bush came, and it wasnt any prettier. I came in '93 and honestly as much as Clinton had some fucked up Imigrant laws, I liked the guy. Hillary FTW!

You tell me to Get The Fuck Out... Unless you are 100% Native American dont talk shit to me you hypocritte(sp) fuck. The English, Spanierds, and Portuguese came and D-Blocked our continent.

I've been home all my life, never left my American Continent.
I AM HOME, I WAS BORN IN NICARAGUA AND I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

[Lantis]

...but seriously, you can believe that Bin Ladden knocked down the towers all you want. It's pretty clear, that 2 airplains CAN NOT! knock down a building the size and structure of the WTC. Specially when most of the fuel that "melted the structure of the building and made it collapse" it's clearly seen burn in the air when the plane hit the buildin.
...there were explosives placed in both towers and even the other building down the block was destroid... but no planes hit that building... hmmm. I wonder why...

:rolleyes: Not ANOTHER conspiracy theory believer. What a fuckin' bore.

You know what I saw in a video ON DE INTERNET once? That the planes were actually modified UFOs which ran on liquid nitro and were filled with Bob-Ombs and devil Koopas! OMFG IT MUST BE TRUUUUU!!

The United States leaders have always tried to debo my home country(Nicaragua) as well as other nations accross the world. Matter of fact we had a tyrant in office during the 60's & 70's working for the US. We had to have a revolution so we didnt become another Puerto Rico.
The US "Bought" 2 of our Islands and offered them to Colombia in exchange for Panama's freedom to become it's own nation. In exchange the US got the right to the Panama Canal for X amount of years...
I had beef with Raegan back in the 80's. Then Bush came, and it wasnt any prettier. I came in '93 and honestly as much as Clinton had some fucked up Imigrant laws, I liked the guy. Hillary FTW!

You tell me to Get The Fuck Out... Unless you are 100% Native American dont talk shit to me you hypocritte(sp) fuck. The English, Spanierds, and Portuguese came and D-Blocked our continent.

I've been home all my life, never left my American Continent.
I AM HOME, I WAS BORN IN NICARAGUA AND I'M PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN!

Blah blah blah.

I will be the first person to admit that the Bush admin is fucked up, but you can't blame the US for your country being basically a piece of shit which happened to be outlined on the map. The US just basically cashed in on your third world country, but people like Castro and Chavez like to bitch and moan while overlooking their own crap happening at home. They're do busy trying to diss capitalism and shit, while thousands of people walk the streets without jobs or being basically oppressed. Stop bitching about Bush and do something about your goddamn people, fucktards.

[regulate]

snip[/b]

sup fellow nica. my opinion on chavez, hes got balls, big balls. Not everyone is willing to stand up to america becuase when shit happens who do you cry to? america. not chavez. i think people like chavez are need as a balance. sure hes a dictator, but what are you gonna do about it. hes got resources and an army loyal to him, no one is gonna do shit to him, not even bush. if america took out chavez tonight, they would have half of latin america on their ass. so what if he talks shit about bush, bush does it too, just in a different way.

[Shankar]

sup fellow nica.
Que pasò broder! ...dìmelo!



Blah blah blah.


Im done with you.


PS- check me at a EVO or any EC tourney and run your mouth to my face... unless you just chill behind a cpu and talk trash... we'll see who's the fucktard...


~Shankar

[Lantis]

PS- check me at a EVO or any EC tourney and run your mouth to my face... unless you just chill behind a cpu and talk trash... we'll see who's the fucktard...

You phail at e-thugging. :rofl:

[DeathScythe]

PS- check me at a EVO or any EC tourney and run your mouth to my face... unless you just chill behind a cpu and talk trash... we'll see who's the fucktard...


~Shankar




The internet is serious business with you, eh? Damn, who knew words that travel at 800 kb/second(depending on your connection) had an effect on someone?

Anyway, Hugo Chavez sounds like a character straight from Hajime no Ippo. Might have to use that as my moniker at tournies from now on.

"A qui....A qui todavia uele a sufre!"

Pardon my spanish typing folks. Haven't written anything in spanish in like 6 years.

Also, this thread delivers. Shout outs to all that could make this derailment happen.

[Rhio2k]

Stop bitching about Bush and do something about your goddamn people, fucktards.

Preferably something that DOESN'T involve sneaking said people over here en masse, then bitching about how things back home were better. We have enough people doing that already.

[Geese Pants]

See...........this is why political threads were banned.

[AHVB]

Yeah, people should stop being so emotional and stop calling out names. Shiki has some legitmate concerns, but derogatory slurs and whatnot do not help you at all.

[Rhio2k]

But hey, it was entertaining and informative...until... (http://www.rhio2k.com/miscmedia/internetdiscussion.gif)

[Debaser]

But hey, it was entertaining and informative...until... (http://www.rhio2k.com/miscmedia/internetdiscussion.gif)

I like how the guy sticks his right arm in the comp but his left hands hit the other guy. E-crossover.

[AdverseSolutions]

only really interesting thing going on under chavez is the micro-radio revolution, which the states could really use. hell everywhere could really use.

as for 'standing up to Bush', well in terms of what he said about latin america yeah the US fucked latin america and is currently waging an awful war in Iraq. i draw the line when he starts teaming up other dictators like mugabe and assad plus ahmedinejad the holocaust denier and starts spouting off obvious jew hatred.

but frankly it's shocking that a person like chavez did not develop earlier considering how often and thoroughly the US was 'monroe-doctrining' the southern hemisphere.

[merdoc]

From What I heard, Hugo Chavez is a good leader, he helps out the latin american community, and he doesnt whore his oil to USA, ya should see how when he comes to NY many hispanics all line up to see this man, cheer him on, hes a hero to some, I was tired of seeing the daily news/ or post cover like "Looney Tyrant Bashes America" why isnt there a "Why is there still no progress after Katrina"..this is some bs.

[AHVB]

i draw the line when he starts teaming up other dictators like mugabe and assad plus ahmedinejad the holocaust denier and starts spouting off obvious jew hatred.

:rofl: :rolleyes:

[capcomANDsnk]

Shiki, was your fam rich in Venz? you sound like those cubans who hate on fidel cuz they were part of the stat quo and fidel effed it up. Hugo's a good leader, last time i check he had the people's support unlike the puppets that the US put in place all over Latin America. But calling Bush "el diablo" is just being an attention whore, it's stupid. what does that accomplish? okay we get it, you don't like bush.

people who constantly rag on bush doesn't understand how things work in this country. bush is not the culprit. IT'S BIGGER THAN GEORGE BUSH! he's just a figure head. this is not on some conspiracy ish. check out the top 10 companies that lobby the most in DC. check out who's getting the military contracts. check out the defense budget then compare that to the rest of the budget. deficit my ass. that's what Hugo should've talked about.

bush didn't knock down the towers, wake the fuck up! maddox pwns jooo!
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

[TS]

Nice page, some good links at the bottom...but that bill folding thing killed me, especially at the end.

About Hugo Chavez and the Iran guy. Wow, some of you guys are suckers. You're getting played, and it's hillarious (and equally sad) that you can't see it.

Um, they don't make ridiculous anti-Bush comments (anti-US comments, when they're not in NY), because they're moral, upright people. They don't do it because they share your retarded beliefs. They do it to get support, from the people inside the US and around the world who have anti-American feelings.

I can't believe I have to even explain this. It makes me hurt inside, seriously. It's like telling a kid that there's no Santa.

They are not standing up for their beliefs and going against the grain, they are going with a rather popular anti-American sentiment, so they look brave.


Why you assume these people aren't even worse than the politicians here that people love to bitch about, I've no clue. Does anyone here who praises Chavez or Castro or whomever, actually know anything about them? Serious question. I figure at most some people have read some books/websites which painted a pretty picture of them, but I'm thinking some of you haven't even hit wikipedia (though what's on there may change by the minute).

And the irony...it's almost too much. People say Bush is some crazy religious nut, and mock him for calling Iran/Iraq/N.Korea the axis of evil, "evil" being a primitive word. Chavez literally calls Geroge Bush the devil...el diablo...Captain Planet himself, and mofos are like "wow, that guy has BALLS, he's so BRAVE." Wow. Fuck you guys. Speaking of religious nuts, go ahead and read up on Amenenejad, or whatever his name is. Not your father's muslim. Not to mention the whole denial of the halocaust, and saying he wanted to wipe out the jews, etc. And of course when asked about these things in an interview, he dodges the questions and plays to his audience, like any good politicians.

But they hate Bush, so they must be pretty decent guys at LEAST, right?


I'm actually sorta glad most of you don't vote. You all must jump into DPs all the time in SF, too. BAITED. So hard.

"The enemy of my enemey is my friend" ain't always true, and sooo many people fall for this bullshit. Iran's president did an interview with Mike Wallace (?) not too long ago, go find it. Listen to who he's talking to when he talks about Bush.

It's politics, everybody.

[Satomiblood]

^I concur^

[Ryu1999]

SNIP

I <3 TS.

He's done it again people. Not as good as his response in the "Should I Review Gay Porn" thread but still great

[Biolink]

I thought the comment was a little weird initially,but then not soon after I saw the documentary"Loose Change" for the first time.I'm not really into propaganda,but a piece of propaganda Loose Change really makes you think

[AdverseSolutions]

purchasing

TS thank you for being a voice of sanity on this sea of idiocy.

[Chachi]

I wouldn't be surprised if SRK peeps thought Raul Bison was a better leader than Bush.

Now that I think about it, they probably wouldn't be that far off...

[blue_J]

[QUOTE=TS;3367442]

And the irony...it's almost too much. People say Bush is some crazy religious nut, and mock him for calling Iran/Iraq/N.Korea the axis of evil, "evil" being a primitive word. Chavez literally calls Geroge Bush the devil...el diablo...Captain Planet himself, and mofos are like "wow, that guy has BALLS, he's so BRAVE." Wow. Fuck you guys. Speaking of religious nuts, go ahead and read up on Amenenejad, or whatever his name is. Not your father's muslim. Not to mention the whole denial of the halocaust, and saying he wanted to wipe out the jews, etc. And of course when asked about these things in an interview, he dodges the questions and plays to his audience, like any good politicians.

[QUOTE]

(AHVB)
With respects to ahmedanijad; Although I seriously disagree with him on the issue of holocaust denial, however there is absolutely nothing wrong with him having doubts about the holocaust. He's a free human being just like anyone else and for anyone to be treated like a demon for questioning a historical event is absurd. All he's asking for is a full, thorough and independent investigation on the event.

With regards to Israel, that whole thing about wanting to wipe Israel off the map has been proven to be a hoax. He never said that. Ahmedanijad just said that there needs to be a change of government in israel.

Lately he's been saying publicly that he's no threat to Israel or the U.S and does not wish to have war against either power. It's amazing how the maerican mainstream media doesnt cover that.

With regards to chavez, All i'm doing is giving respect where it's due. Chavez may be a dick to his people, however this topic isnt about that. I said that I respected Chavez because he doesnt fold to americas foreign policy like many other world leaders. He has every right to be pissed off at the U.S. they tried to kill him a few years ago for gods sake.

With regards to Loose Change, me being a 9/11 conspiracy theorist myself. I can tell you that movie is nothing but propaganda meant to mislead you with that "no planes" crap. That is all i'm saying on that topic.

[white shadow]

With respects to ahmedanijad; Although I seriously disagree with him on the issue of holocaust denial, however there is absolutely nothing wrong with him having doubts about the holocaust. He's a free human being just like anyone else and for anyone to be treated like a demon for questioning a historical event is absurd. All he's asking for is a full, thorough and independent investigation on the event.

Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that there is mountains of evidence stating otherwise, film and living evidence in the form of tattooed, and emotionally scarred individuals. He's rich so I'm sure it is not because he can't afford to find the evidence.



With regards to Israel, that whole thing about wanting to wipe Israel off the map has been proven to be a hoax. He never said that. Ahmedanijad just said that there needs to be a change of government in israel.

[reputable] source please?



Lately he's been saying publicly that he's no threat to Israel or the U.S and does not wish to have war against either power. It's amazing how the maerican mainstream media doesnt cover that.

IM*H*O actions speak louder than words.


With regards to chavez, All i'm doing is giving respect where it's due. Chavez may be a dick to his people, however this topic isnt about that. I said that I respected Chavez because he doesnt fold to americas foreign policy like many other world leaders. He has every right to be pissed off at the U.S. they tried to kill him a few years ago for gods sake.

But what about the leaders who don't oppress their own people AND disagree with America's policies? Shouldn't they be more worthy of respect? I mean that's like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer may have been a serial murderer/cannibal, but at least he didn't kill and eat heterosexuals.

[Dataika]

Whiteshadow can you post a link to your comment about kicking out farmers who have owned their land? What were the circumstances surrounding that action? I very highly doubt that Chavez was just like "omfg u guyz suck, u n00bs" and took their land with one swift kick to the balls.

Here's a fairly good article about Chavez, by the way, that seems pretty unbias to me and can give most of the people here a basic history. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1925236.stm

And here's a documentary about Chavez... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

I think Serpent's post was pretty good. Republicans and Democrats are becoming close to a similar party. Democrats over here that are saying stuff about Chavez's comments like: "He's our president and any attack on our president is an attack on us" are showing just how truthful those words are. Since when was he "our" president? I didn't vote for him, he's not mine.

TS:
If you don't think that Hugo Chavez really dislikes President Bush, then you are simply wrong. There is nothing to support that and anyone sharing Chavez's political beliefs (bolivarianism, liberation theology, etc...) would not generally think of Bush as an imperialist. So wouldn't it make sense that he would make anti-bush statements?

And as for your comment about Chavez supporters, I could ask the same thing about Chavez opposers. Do most of them know ANYTHING ABOUT HIM? Probably not, they just watch bias American news stations and listen to bias politicians speak about him.

Chavez is a Christian. A heavily rooted Christian (which I actually think is unfortunate). I don't really care who Bush called the Axis of Evil and the only people who do, do so not because of the necessary term "evil" but because he used the term to describe another nation. Doing so alienates the other countries from even sitting down and discussing anything with you. Many Americans feel that this alienation is going to end up costing us down the road. It's an issue of security, for the most part. Chavez saying it has people either laughing hysterically (like me) or rallying around it as a battle cry because they already believe Bush has done terrible things.

The two circumstances surrounding them are completely different, so it's just unfair to make the comparison.


That being said, I excuse myself from the thread. I will read your response TS (if you bother with replying, because arguing on the internet is pretty pointless anyway), since I have respect for you and know you are a pretty smart guy. For the rest of the people here in this thread, it's obvious that 90% of the people posting don't know anything about Venezuela.

EDIT: Taking out the statement about being a "Chavez supporter" because I'm not necessarily one. Although I do appreciate the goals he's trying to reach in Venezuela.

[Satomiblood]

For the rest of the people here in this thread, it's obvious that 90% of the people posting don't know anything about Venezuela.

He's right, guys. We should stick to character battle polls and relationship FAQs.

[Return of Shiki]

Nice page, some good links at the bottom...but that bill folding thing killed me, especially at the end.

About Hugo Chavez and the Iran guy. Wow, some of you guys are suckers. You're getting played, and it's hillarious (and equally sad) that you can't see it.

Um, they don't make ridiculous anti-Bush comments (anti-US comments, when they're not in NY), because they're moral, upright people. They don't do it because they share your retarded beliefs. They do it to get support, from the people inside the US and around the world who have anti-American feelings.

I can't believe I have to even explain this. It makes me hurt inside, seriously. It's like telling a kid that there's no Santa.

They are not standing up for their beliefs and going against the grain, they are going with a rather popular anti-American sentiment, so they look brave.


Why you assume these people aren't even worse than the politicians here that people love to bitch about, I've no clue. Does anyone here who praises Chavez or Castro or whomever, actually know anything about them? Serious question. I figure at most some people have read some books/websites which painted a pretty picture of them, but I'm thinking some of you haven't even hit wikipedia (though what's on there may change by the minute).

And the irony...it's almost too much. People say Bush is some crazy religious nut, and mock him for calling Iran/Iraq/N.Korea the axis of evil, "evil" being a primitive word. Chavez literally calls Geroge Bush the devil...el diablo...Captain Planet himself, and mofos are like "wow, that guy has BALLS, he's so BRAVE." Wow. Fuck you guys. Speaking of religious nuts, go ahead and read up on Amenenejad, or whatever his name is. Not your father's muslim. Not to mention the whole denial of the halocaust, and saying he wanted to wipe out the jews, etc. And of course when asked about these things in an interview, he dodges the questions and plays to his audience, like any good politicians.

But they hate Bush, so they must be pretty decent guys at LEAST, right?


I'm actually sorta glad most of you don't vote. You all must jump into DPs all the time in SF, too. BAITED. So hard.

"The enemy of my enemey is my friend" ain't always true, and sooo many people fall for this bullshit. Iran's president did an interview with Mike Wallace (?) not too long ago, go find it. Listen to who he's talking to when he talks about Bush.

It's politics, everybody.

Close thread.

[Ojigishirou]

Taken from: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1818

You’d think George Bush would get down on his knees and kiss Hugo Chávez’s behind. Not only has Chávez delivered cheap oil to the Bronx and other poor communities in the United States. And not only did he offer to bring aid to the victims of Katrina. In my interview with the president of Venezuela on March 28, he made Bush the following astonishing offer: Chávez would drop the price of oil to $50 a barrel, “not too high, a fair price,” he said—a third less than the $75 a barrel for oil recently posted on the spot market. That would bring down the price at the pump by about a buck, from $3 to $2 a gallon.

But our President has basically told Chávez to take his cheaper oil and stick it up his pipeline. Before I explain why Bush has done so, let me explain why Chávez has the power to pull it off—and the method in the seeming madness of his “take-my-oil-please!” deal.

Venezuela, Chávez told me, has more oil than Saudi Arabia. A nutty boast? Not by a long shot. In fact, his surprising claim comes from a most surprising source: the U.S. Department of Energy. In an internal report, the DOE estimates that Venezuela has five times the Saudis’ reserves.

However, most of Venezuela’s mega-horde of crude is in the form of “extra-heavy” oil—liquid asphalt—which is ghastly expensive to pull up and refine. Oil has to sell above $30 a barrel to make the investment in extra-heavy oil worthwhile. A big dip in oil’s price—and, after all, oil cost only $18 a barrel six years ago—would bankrupt heavy-oil investors. Hence Chávez’s offer: Drop the price to $50—and keep it there. That would guarantee Venezuela’s investment in heavy oil.

But the ascendance of Venezuela within OPEC necessarily means the decline of the power of the House of Saud. And the Bush family wouldn’t like that one bit. It comes down to “petro-dollars.” When George W. ferried then-Crown Prince (now King) Abdullah of Saudi Arabia around the Crawford ranch in a golf cart it wasn’t because America needs Arabian oil. The Saudis will always sell us their petroleum. What Bush needs is Saudi petro-dollars. Saudi Arabia has, over the past three decades, kindly recycled the cash sucked from the wallets of American SUV owners and sent much of the loot right back to New York to buy U.S. Treasury bills and other U.S. assets.

The Gulf potentates understand that in return for lending the U.S. Treasury the cash to fund George Bush’s $2 trillion rise in the nation’s debt, they receive protection in return. They lend us petro-dollars, we lend them the 82nd Airborne.

Chávez would put an end to all that. He’ll sell us oil relatively cheaply—but intends to keep the petro-dollars in Latin America. Recently, Chávez withdrew $20 billion from the U.S. Federal Reserve and, at the same time, lent or committed a like sum to Argentina, Ecuador, and other Latin American nations.

Chávez, notes The Wall Street Journal, has become a “tropical IMF.” And indeed, as the Venezuelan president told me, he wants to abolish the Washington-based International Monetary Fund, with its brutal free-market diktats, and replace it with an “International Humanitarian Fund,” an IHF, or more accurately, an International Hugo Fund. In addition, Chávez wants OPEC to officially recognize Venezuela as the cartel’s reserve leader, which neither the Saudis nor Bush will take kindly to.

Politically, Venezuela is torn in two. Chávez’s “Bolivarian Revolution,” a close replica of Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal—a progressive income tax, public works, social security, cheap electricity—makes him wildly popular with the poor. And most Venezuelans are poor. His critics, a four-centuries’ old white elite, unused to sharing oil wealth, portray him as a Castro-hugging anti-Christ.

Chávez’s government, which used to brush off these critics, has turned aggressive on them. I challenged Chávez several times over charges brought against Súmate, his main opposition group. The two founders of the nongovernmental organization, which led the recall campaign against Chávez, face eight years in prison for taking money from the Bush Administration and the International Republican [Party] Institute. No nation permits foreign funding of political campaigns, but the charges (no one is in jail) seem like a heavy hammer to use on the minor infractions of these pathetic gadflies.

Bush’s reaction to Chávez has been a mix of hostility and provocation. Washington supported the coup attempt against Chávez in 2002, and Condoleezza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld have repeatedly denounced him. The revised National Security Strategy of the United States of America, released in March, says, “In Venezuela, a demagogue awash in oil money is undermining democracy and seeking to destabilize the region.”

So when the Reverend Pat Robertson, a Bush ally, told his faithful in August 2005 that Chávez has to go, it was not unreasonable to assume that he was articulating an Administration wish. “If he thinks we’re trying to assassinate him,” Robertson said, “I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It’s a whole lot cheaper than starting a war . . . and I don’t think any oil shipments will stop.”

There are only two ways to defeat the rise of Chávez as the New Abdullah of the Americas. First, the unattractive option: Cut the price of oil below $30 a barrel. That would make Chávez’s crude worthless. Or, option two: Kill him.

Q: Your opponents are saying that you are beginning a slow-motion dictatorship. Is that what we are seeing?

Hugo Chávez: They have been saying that for a long time. When they’re short of ideas, any excuse will do as a vehicle for lies. That is totally false. I would like to invite the citizens of Great Britain and the citizens of the U.S. and the citizens of the world to come here and walk freely through the streets of Venezuela, to talk to anyone they want, to watch television, to read the papers. We are building a true democracy, with human rights for everyone, social rights, education, health care, pensions, social security, and jobs.

Q: Some of your opponents are being charged with the crime of taking money from George Bush. Will you send them to jail?

Chávez: It’s not up to me to decide that. We have the institutions that do that. These people have admitted they have received money from the government of the United States. It’s up to the prosecutors to decide what to do, but the truth is that we can’t allow the U.S. to finance the destabilization of our country. What would happen if we financed somebody in the U.S. to destabilize the government of George Bush? They would go to prison, certainly.

Q: How do you respond to Bush’s charge that you are destabilizing the region and interfering in the elections of other Latin American countries?

Chávez: Mr. Bush is an illegitimate President. In Florida, his brother Jeb deleted many black voters from the electoral registers. So this President is the result of a fraud. Not only that, he is also currently applying a dictatorship in the U.S. People can be put in jail without being charged. They tap phones without court orders. They check what books people take out of public libraries. They arrested Cindy Sheehan because of a T-shirt she was wearing demanding the return of the troops from Iraq. They abuse blacks and Latinos. And if we are going to talk about meddling in other countries, then the U.S. is the champion of meddling in other people’s affairs. They invaded Guatemala, they overthrew Salvador Allende, invaded Panama and the Dominican Republic. They were involved in the coup d’état in Argentina thirty years ago.

Q: Is the U.S. interfering in your elections here?

Chávez: They have interfered for 200 years. They have tried to prevent us from winning the elections, they supported the coup d’état, they gave millions of dollars to the coup plotters, they supported the media, newspapers, outlaw movements, military intervention, and espionage. But here the empire is finished, and I believe that before the end of this century, it will be finished in the rest of the world. We will see the burial of the empire of the eagle.

Q: You don’t interfere in the elections of other nations in Latin America?

Chávez: Absolutely not. I concern myself with Venezuela. However, what’s going on now is that some rightwing movements are transforming me into a pawn in the domestic politics of their countries, by making statements that are groundless. About candidates like Morales [of Bolivia], for example. They said I financed the candidacy of President Lula [of Brazil], which is totally false. They said I financed the candidacy of Kirchner [of Argentina], which is totally false. In Mexico, recently, the rightwing party has used my image for its own profit. What’s happened is that in Latin America there is a turn to the left. Latin Americans have gotten tired of the Washington consensus—a neoliberalism that has aggravated misery and poverty.

Q: You have spent millions of dollars of your nation’s oil wealth throughout Latin America. Are you really helping these other nations or are you simply buying political support for your regime?

Chávez: We are brothers and sisters. That’s one of the reasons for the wrath of the empire. You know that Venezuela has the biggest oil reserves in the world. And the biggest gas reserves in this hemisphere, the eighth in the world. Up until seven years ago, Venezuela was a U.S. oil colony. All of our oil was going up to the north, and the gas was being used by the U.S. and not by us. Now we are diversifying. Our oil is helping the poor. We are selling to the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Cuba, some Central American countries, Uruguay, Argentina.

Q: And the Bronx?

Chávez: In the Bronx it is a donation. In all the cases I just mentioned before, it is trade. However, it’s not free trade, just fair commerce. We also have an international humanitarian fund as a result of oil revenues.

Q: Why did George Bush turn down your help for New Orleans after the hurricane?

Chávez: You should ask him, but from the very beginning of the terrible disaster of Katrina, our people in the U.S., like the president of CITGO, went to New Orleans to rescue people. We were in close contact by phone with Jesse Jackson. We hired buses. We got food and water. We tried to protect them; they are our brothers and sisters. Doesn’t matter if they are African, Asian, Cuban, whatever.

Q: Are you replacing the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund as “Daddy Big Bucks”?

Chávez: I do wish that the IMF and the World Bank would disappear soon.

Q: And it would be the Bank of Hugo?

Chávez: No. The International Humanitarian Bank. We are just creating an alternative way to conduct financial exchange. It is based on cooperation. For example, we send oil to Uruguay for their refinery and they are paying us with cows.

Q: Milk for oil.

Chávez: That’s right. Milk for oil. The Argentineans also pay us with cows. And they give us medical equipment to combat cancer. It’s a transfer of technology. We also exchange oil for software technology. Uruguay is one of the biggest producers of software. We are breaking with the neoliberal model. We do not believe in free trade. We believe in fair trade and exchange, not competition but cooperation. I’m not giving away oil for free. Just using oil, first to benefit our people, to relieve poverty. For a hundred years we have been one of the largest oil-producing countries in the world but with a 60 percent poverty rate and now we are canceling the historical debt.

Q: Speaking of the free market, you’ve demanded back taxes from U.S. oil companies. You have eliminated contracts for North American, British, and European oil companies. Are you trying to slice out the British and American oil companies from Venezuela?

Chávez: No, we don’t want them to go, and I don’t think they want to leave the country, either. We need each other. It’s simply that we have recovered our oil sovereignty. They didn’t pay taxes. They didn’t pay royalties. They didn’t give an account of their actions to the government. They had more land than had previously been established in the contracts. They didn’t comply with the agreed technology exchange. They polluted the environment and didn’t pay anything towards the cleanup. They now have to comply with the law.

Q: You’ve said that you imagine the price of oil rising to $100 dollars per barrel. Are you going to use your new oil wealth to squeeze the planet?

Chávez: No, no. We have no intention of squeezing anyone. Now, we have been squeezed and very hard. Five hundred years of squeezing us and stifling us, the people of the South. I do believe that demand is increasing and supply is dropping and the large reservoirs are running out. But it’s not our fault. In the future, there must be an agreement between the large consumers and the large producers.

Q: What happens when the oil money runs out, what happens when the price of oil falls as it always does? Will the Bolivarian revolution of Hugo Chávez simply collapse because there’s no money to pay for the big free ride?

Chávez: I don’t think it will collapse, in the unlikely case of oil running out today. The revolution will survive. It does not rely solely on oil for its survival. There is a national will, there is a national idea, a national project. However, we are today implementing a strategic program called the Oil Sowing Plan: using oil wealth so Venezuela can become an agricultural country, a tourist destination, an industrialized country with a diversified economy. We are investing billions of dollars in the infrastructure: power generators using thermal energy, a large railway, roads, highways, new towns, new universities, new schools, recuperating land, building tractors, and giving loans to farmers. One day we won’t have any more oil, but that will be in the twenty-second century. Venezuela has oil for another 200 years.

Q: But the revolution can come to an end if there’s another coup and it succeeds. Do you believe Bush is still trying to overthrow your government?

Chávez: He would like to, but what you want is one thing, and what you cannot really obtain is another.

Black and white doesn't exist, people. Let it go. Just, let it go.

The only thing Hugo Chavez is guilty of, is fucking up Venezuela's social status, and not doing everything to make his country the maximum amount of money as possible.

Before he got in office, 20% of the population of the people had the wealth and 80% were poor. He tries to change that shit, and that's where all the problems begin.

Maybe not being motivated by greed is a bad thing, I dunno.

His other offenses, is stomping out free speech from the opposition group (they are the ones who cooperated with the CIA to have him killed) and rewriting the consitution in his favor... oh, and all being concerned about getting nothing but weapons so he can be a force to be reckoned with.

But like I said, quit with the black and white bullshit. It's beyond stupid.

Some other shit about him: http://www.americans-for-chavez.com/

[TS]

Dataika- point taken, about pretty much everything.

Chavez may not really like Bush, but I doubt his words come from a sincere place- he's clearly playing things up for the people watching (that being everybody on earth).

Ahmedanijad frankly seems a bit more sinister, because he heads the other direction and pretend like he loves the American people and he only has a reasonable problem with the Iraq war, parroting moderate views so people agree with him. Plus he does the "I want to have you killed" smile, which is just fucking creepy.

edit: Good example of what I was taking about with Chavez, he's doing the fake politician "I'll pretend like I care" thing. Giving oil to people in the Bronx, and then offering to help out Katrina victims plays to a certain crowd, and in the post above he even brings up black voters being kept from voting in 2000 elections. He's saying what people want to hear, what he knows a lot of people will agree with. He's trying to make himself look good.

[N-Ken]

See...........this is why political threads were banned.



I think they banned political threads because most of the people who post in them are pretty clueless. Peeps who say we are being "opressed" in the US. That is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Still saying Bush knocked down the towers is a crock. People not knowing what liberal means is a crock. People saying chavez is a hero is a crock. This forum is so anti bush that anyone else who doesnt like him is a hero. Bush is a moron and has an agenda sure, is he the devil though? Not to anyone who has a brain. Hearing Bush is evil is getting so old, because the people it comes from are generally pretty clueless.

[white shadow]

Whiteshadow can you post a link to your comment about kicking out farmers who have owned their land? What were the circumstances surrounding that action? I very highly doubt that Chavez was just like "omfg u guyz suck, u n00bs" and took their land with one swift kick to the balls.


I did research in the library on him and one article in National Geographic pretty much covered everything about the underhanded things he was doing. http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0604/feature4/index.html

^ Unfortunately being a magazine site they won't show the full article I read. :bluu:

[Theycalledhim Alan]

As much as I adore world events, politics, history etc. I won't comment on Chavez because I have no interest in arguing in this thread. But when Chavez said the devil was here and made the cross.. I was roffling lolol "it still smells like sulfur" LOLOL, even the people in the UN were laughing.

[blue_J]

"Maybe if it wasn't for the fact that there is mountains of evidence stating otherwise, film and living evidence in the form of tattooed, and emotionally scarred individuals. He's rich so I'm sure it is not because he can't afford to find the evidence."

I don't agree with him. I believe that the holocaust happened, I just dont believe that he or anyone should be demonized (or in a few cases some have been arrested) for denying the holocaust.

"[reputable] source please?"
Sure,
http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1805
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C22%5Cstory_22-2-2006_pg4_15


"IM*H*O actions speak louder than words."
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=78497&d=27&m=8&y=2006
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=anFyUlg9Cusg&refer=europe

Well, the best action to prove that he isnt a threat to Israel or the U.S. is obviously, no action. There's no evidence that he has a nuclear program or any plans to attack us.




But what about the leaders who don't oppress their own people AND disagree with America's policies? Shouldn't they be more worthy of respect? I mean that's like saying that Jeffrey Dahmer may have been a serial murderer/cannibal, but at least he didn't kill and eat heterosexuals.

I'm pretty sure that a'lot of them disagree, however none of them do a damn thing about it. Like i said, I'm just giving respect where it's due, I'm not praining Chavez like he's the new MLK or something.

[white shadow]

"[reputable] source please?"
Sure,
http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1805
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C22%5Cstory_22-2-2006_pg4_15

Turkey, the same country that spends time writing about how the Armenian Holocaust never ocurred...right. But still, I have no further qualms with your source.

No linkie for Pakistan news, unless I have to sign up or somethign which I'm too lazy to do.:razzy:

[QUOTE=blue_J;3369409]
"IM*H*O actions speak louder than words."
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=78497&d=27&m=8&y=2006
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=anFyUlg9Cusg&refer=europe

IIRC didn't he say he was planning a nuclear program but it was for "beneficial reasons?"



I'm pretty sure that a'lot of them disagree, however none of them do a damn thing about it. Like i said, I'm just giving respect where it's due, I'm not praining Chavez like he's the new MLK or something.


So being a hypocrite and calling out a man who shares the same faults as himself is commendablel? Just because world leaders don't spend time on podiums belting out vindictive words at bush all day doesn't mean they don't voice out against him or his administration.

[Ojigishirou]

Ahmedanijad frankly seems a bit more sinister, because he heads the other direction and pretend like he loves the American people and he only has a reasonable problem with the Iraq war, parroting moderate views so people agree with him. Plus he does the "I want to have you killed" smile, which is just fucking creepy.
But see, the problem with anyone having any concern about hinm us that Ahmedanijad has no power. He could do and say whatever he wants, but decisions are not left up to him. He's only a figure-head.

Frankly, I can't agree with people disliking someone just because "I have a feeling." If there's no proof of anything, speculation is not waranted or needed.


edit: Good example of what I was taking about with Chavez, he's doing the fake politician "I'll pretend like I care" thing. Giving oil to people in the Bronx, and then offering to help out Katrina victims plays to a certain crowd, and in the post above he even brings up black voters being kept from voting in 2000 elections. He's saying what people want to hear, what he knows a lot of people will agree with. He's trying to make himself look good.

So... wait, you're demonizing him for atleast attempting to do a lot more than our goverment when it comes to poor people?

You won't atleast give the guy credit, since a leader of another fucking country did more for the people of New Orleans than our own goverment? Did you also agree with when Castro atempted to send 2,000+ doctors to New Orleans and the Bush admin refused for them to come?

He sure is hell is going through a lot of trouble if this is all just a act. Shit, I wish there was a lot of actors who would go in their own pocket and give away free shit like he does.

Chavez, is mixed with black. Of COURSE he'd care about black voters being screwed over by not being able to vote.

See, you're assuming too much about the guy. Could you atleast admit give the guy props for how'd you put it-- Acting like he cares? The way this nigga acts he deserves a Oscar. After all, it's impossible to be a world leader and have these views without faking the funk. He isn't at all an extremist, y'know.

Only problem with Chavez, is that he opposes neo-imperialism and captalism. The hell? That shit makes the world go 'round. Can't fight it, so might as well give up.

Something like this: http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html is gonna happen wheter we like it or not.

[Dataika]

No offense WhiteShadow, but I struggle to take that National Geographic work seriously.

The middle class in Venezuela is NOT like the Middle Class in America. Compared to the low classes in Venezuela, it is amazing that a Middle Class can still have a "title." I also love the fact the article claims all of these people seemingly hate Chavez without any sort of facts to actually back the statement up.

It also, seemingly like much of the West, knows little about the actual coup that was planned against Chavez. I would go into more detail now, but I have to go to work.

But you shouldn't just take that site's "word for it" and I encourage you to look up the facts independently.

[Adam Warlock]

Since when was he "our" president? I didn't vote for him, he's not mine.


Dataika, I know you're smarter than this. This type of logic irks me. Whether you voted for him or not, as long as you claim the status of American Citizen, he's still your President. You don't get to discard the results of the election simply because you don't agree with the outcome. Your only viable option is to leave. Since you're still here, he is your president.

[Return of Shiki]

So... wait, you're demonizing him for atleast attempting to do a lot more than our goverment when it comes to poor people?

You won't atleast give the guy credit, since a leader of another fucking country did more for the people of New Orleans than our own goverment? Did you also agree with when Castro atempted to send 2,000+ doctors to New Orleans and the Bush admin refused for them to come?

He sure is hell is going through a lot of trouble if this is all just a act. Shit, I wish there was a lot of actors who would go in their own pocket and give away free shit like he does.

Chavez, is mixed with black. Of COURSE he'd care about black voters being screwed over by not being able to vote.

See, you're assuming too much about the guy. Could you atleast admit give the guy props for how'd you put it-- Acting like he cares? The way this nigga acts he deserves a Oscar. After all, it's impossible to be a world leader and have these views without faking the funk. He isn't at all an extremist, y'know.

Only problem with Chavez, is that he opposes neo-imperialism and captalism. The hell? That shit makes the world go 'round. Can't fight it, so might as well give up.

Something like this: http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html is gonna happen wheter we like it or not.

Hilarious.

If Chavez is "mixed" with black, then so am I. My father is mestizo, and it's actually quite possible that one of my great-great-great grandfathers from my father's side was an African slave transported to Venezuela (or to Brazil or the Caribbean who then later migrated to Venezuela). So it's likely that I'm about 5-10% Black or something. And I don't really care if 1,000 Black people had their votes erased. I wouldn't really care if 1,000 white people had their votes erased. Elections are shams anyway, and black people have always been discriminated against in America at the polls since 1865 so this isn't anything new.

So don't turn this into a race thing.
Chavez doesn't give a crap about black voters in America. Just like Castro KNEW he wasn't really going to send 2,000 doctors to New Orleans.

The POINT is these kinds of things are stunts crafted by men who ARE POLITICIANS. It's in Castro and Chavez' best personal interests to undermine Bush and the American Government in any way possible. And nobody can deny that Chavez and Castro are very, VERY intelligent men. And they know what going on in America, and know how to say things to stir up the tools who start anti-American sentiments everytime something goes wrong with Bush in office.
Every successful politician gives Oscar-worthy performances. They're fake actors...that's what they do.

In other words, they are playing the people in America who are mad about gas prices, Katrina, and the elections. That STILL doesn't mean they're on your side in the end.

[white shadow]

But you shouldn't just take that site's "word for it" and I encourage you to look up the facts independently.

Ahh but I have good sir. Last semester I had to learn about the poltical situation in the Americas so I had to garner information many different resources, mostly from books in the library.

Unfortunately all you read was a small excerpt from a much longer, more detailed article from the magazine. National Geographic was the most prolific (IMO) of these books because it visually showed the conditions these people lived in, the drastic class differences, and the ways Hugo Chavez tries blots out the obvious strife of his people by having a several hour long shows on weekends that only seems to show the "good" of his actions by taking land from farmers. Propaganda at its finest.

[Airthrow]

I <3 TS.

He's done it again people. Not as good as his response in the "Should I Review Gay Porn" thread but still great

MotherFUCK people remember that...?

[DaLastDon25]

I'll throw 2 cents in. If Hugo Chavez stole his countrymen's land for the sake of the country, then it's exactly like when Stalin "collectivized" Russia. Chavez seems to like squashing any opposition he has just like Stalin. I just don't understand how you can call him a hero for standing up to our president while he seems to be sucking the life out his own country. I'm not saying Bush is a great man, but he doesn't seem to be imprisoning Howard Dean or causing Ted Kennedy to fall off the face of the Earth. I don't understand how people can lionize dictators and tyrants that shit all over their people when the cameras aren't on.

Bush ain't a saint and I didn't vote for him either time but I'd rather have him than Chavez, Castro, or Ahmaninejad. If Castro is so great for Cuba, why do people risk everything to get in some rickety ass boat to get to America? They can buy plane tickets to Mexico or any other country in the world but they take their chances to get here. America must be pretty good after all.

[blue_J]

"Turkey, the same country that spends time writing about how the Armenian Holocaust never ocurred...right. But still, I have no further qualms with your source."

Just because it's from turkey doesnt make it uncredible. Fact is that he was misquoted. and this Misquote caused the mainstream media go catch an orgasm.

"IIRC didn't he say he was planning a nuclear program but it was for "beneficial reasons?""

To this day there has been no evidence to support the notion that iran is attampting to build a nuclear weapon. And besides, who are we to tell them not to have nukes. Israel has plenty, so why can't Iran?


"So being a hypocrite and calling out a man who shares the same faults as himself is commendablel? Just because world leaders don't spend time on podiums belting out vindictive words at bush all day doesn't mean they don't voice out against him or his administration."

Hence why I said giving respect where it's due. Chaves from what I hear is a complete cock in the face, however he isnt a punk and i respect him for that sole reason. Regardless, he is an asshole and I'm not praising him like he's a god among men.

[white shadow]

"Turkey, the same country that spends time writing about how the Armenian Holocaust never ocurred...right. But still, I have no further qualms with your source."

Just because it's from turkey doesnt make it uncredible. Fact is that he was misquoted. and this Misquote caused the mainstream media go catch an orgasm.

Note what I said in my second sentence.



To this day there has been no evidence to support the notion that iran is attampting to build a nuclear weapon. And besides, who are we to tell them not to have nukes. Israel has plenty, so why can't Iran?


I'll take your word for it, since if it is true it will eventually manifest itself some time in the future. And yes, America does not have the right to tell a country whether or not to have nukes when they possess them too. However Iran's potential threat to Israel seems eminent if they do, because any slight provaction by Israel will be seen as a means to attack... if they are in the process of making nuclear weapons that is.


Hence why I said giving respect where it's due. Chaves from what I hear is a complete cock in the face, however he isnt a punk and i respect him for that sole reason. Regardless, he is an asshole and I'm not praising him like he's a god among men.

OK, I'll accept that.

[Dataika]

Ahh but I have good sir. Last semester I had to learn about the poltical situation in the Americas so I had to garner information many different resources, mostly from books in the library.

Care to post them? So far you've just said over and over: "I have information" and then when I ask you about it, you point to a dubious source with dubious statements it claims are "facts" and nothing has been backed up.

By the way, no one says that Chavez has eliminated the gap between the rich and the poor. That's very hard to do, especially in a country like Venezuela. So to visually show poor people in Venezuela doesn't show anything.

And there's that comment about "taking land from farmers" which you haven't backed up at all. Surely such a program taken by the Venezuela would have some sort of historical significance. I mean is it like Stalin and the Kulaks in the Ukraine? Or what? Conditions surrounding such a program and the programs intended goal are needed here to come up with a rational understanding of the action.

Propoganda at its finest seems to be what you're giving me.


Adam:
Whether you voted for him or not, as long as you claim the status of American Citizen, he's still your President.

I will acknowledge that objectively it is true. While subjectively I don't believe it to be the case, but because it's subjective, there's no real way to argue from that view point. Fair enough.

My main point is that the Democrats didn't want him in office and don't want him in office, yet when someone criticizes him who isn't "American" it's; "OMFG HEZ OUR PREZIDENT!!" Which is just stupid, IMO.

[Return of Shiki]

I dunno...if I was on speaking terms with my dad I would make him ask questions about the living conditions in Venezuela to my uncle who visits fairly often now.

Except I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't want to talk about it.
And I'm pretty sure that my father's family is within that 80% poor population bracket.
And I'm pretty sure that's they want to immigrate here (LEGALLY, like my dad did around 30 years ago) as soon as possible.

[white shadow]

*SNIP*

You are absolutely correct, unfortunately due to the fact that most of my info came magazine articles and books they are not as easy to retrieve....fortunately....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Hugo_

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3675

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4282672.stm

[Dataika]

The wikipedia article doesn't exist. (Although I did look up the article myself and found it)

Of course I don't know the details because the articles you listed seemed to be pretty vague, so I'll have to look into it further. However, the articles you listed hardly showed that "hard working farmers" have been robbed of anything, but rather a rich imperialist had his unused land taken from him by the government (which is a natural progression for a socialist nation attempting to rid itself of its imperialistic past). It also fairly reasonable due to the fact that the poor have been building homes on that unused land for a long time (because the government simply lacks the resources to build all the homes guaranteed to the citizens by the constitution).

However, like I said, these articles are vague, so I'll have to look into it a little more.

[Carmen]

"However Iran's potential threat to Israel seems eminent if they do, because any slight provaction by Israel will be seen as a means to attack... if they are in the process of making nuclear weapons that is."

Iran has not invaded another country for over 100 years. Israel has invaded several countries, including one just a few months ago, in its 60 year lifespan. Somehow I think the media is focusing on the wrong people here? AND hypothetically, if Iran wanted to invade Israel (very hypothetically, the opposite is probably a better chance at reality) it would be much easier to do so with conventional weapons rather then nuclear weapons. However, I stress thats a hypothetical for sake of illustration.

I think what people should be worrying about is Israel (a dangerous country that can go out and pretty much bomb anyone without losing face thanks to the pretext of "we have a right to defend ourselves") and to a lesser extent North Korea. I guess after Iraq people should also worry about the US, but I'm sure that after how bad the PR was for the country that I doubt another invasion is in the cards.



Anyway, while Chavez seems to demonise the middle class in Venezuela, from what I've read his programmes are helping poor people, in terms of opening social medical services and such, so I find it hard for people to say hes despotic like Stalin?

[white shadow]

Iran has not invaded another country for over 100 years. Israel has invaded several countries, including one just a few months ago, in its 60 year lifespan. Somehow I think the media is focusing on the wrong people here? AND hypothetically, if Iran wanted to invade Israel (very hypothetically, the opposite is probably a better chance at reality) it would be much easier to do so with conventional weapons rather then nuclear weapons. However, I stress thats a hypothetical for sake of illustration.

I think what people should be worrying about is Israel (a dangerous country that can go out and pretty much bomb anyone without losing face thanks to the pretext of "we have a right to defend ourselves") and to a lesser extent North Korea. I guess after Iraq people should also worry about the US, but I'm sure that after how bad the PR was for the country that I doubt another invasion is in the cards.



Oh I never said that Israel were saints, that is precisely the point why Iran getting nuclear weapons is a horrifying thought to many. Israel has made the entire Middle East garner nothing but pure hatred for Jewish people. The fact that Iran hasn't attacked anyone in 100 years means little to me, because times are changing and modern warfare has become more about numbers than people.

[fishjie]

I think the problem with Iran getting nuclear weapons is whether or not they can secure them against terrorists. Do they have the necessary security in place to prevent that? I can understand Iran wanting to get nuclear weapons seeing as how they are surrounded by enemies. Its just a way to say "dont mess with us", much like N Korea.

[Carmen]

"I think the problem with Iran getting nuclear weapons is whether or not they can secure them against terrorists. Do they have the necessary security in place to prevent that?"

I think if Pakistan and India, which aren't exactly well-run countries, lol, can keep them out of the hands of third parties then Iran should be able to. I honestly don't know how good thier security is but for some reason I can't imagine it being much worse then those countries'? Also since radical Islamist terrorists with global aims (I think the sort of group you're referring to) have been a small number that has severely lessening yearly I think its less conceivable that they'll be able to obtain nuclear weapons, or even many more conventional weapons.

"Its just a way to say "dont mess with us", much like N Korea."

I guess. First of all I still doubt that Iran will develop nuclear weapons though I'm sure there are no doubt Iranians who'd like to thier country to have nukes. But I think part of the reason IF they made weapons would be to keep Israel in check. I think what white shadow is aiming at is that people are more scared and will take a 'nuclear' nation moe seriously (is that what you mean by "why Iran getting nuclear weapons is a horrifying thought to many"?) even though Israel just proved you don't need nukes to damn well bomb a country out of existance. But unfortunetly Israel may just take them on because, well, Israel is stubborn like that.

North Korea on the other hand, just seems crazy... am I missing something about the situtation there?

Anyway, Israel's ambitions are, of course, bad for Jewish people everywhere. I don't think it would be as bad if there was strong and visible anti-Zionist movements in Judeaism, but all you have are 'fringe' groups of like twenty people, whereas the Jews that get on TV and the radio will strongly associate themselves with Israel no matter where they are, thus further blurring the line between the people and the country, and making them more viable targets...

[Ojigishirou]

Even if Iran had nuclear weapons, who's to say they'd even use them rather than just having it as a tool to discourage invasion?

If you remember, when Iran and Iraq went to war... the U.S. sold both of them chemical weapons. If I remember correctly, didn't Iraq use them and Iran refused to do so?

How could Iran bomb Israel when Jerusalem is right there? That's like Iran bombing Saudi Arabia (which is very corrupt for one) when Mecca is located there. It just won't happen.

If Iran is deadset on killing Jews, then why not start at home? There's I beleive 100,000+ Jews living in Iran. Iran has the second largest Jewish population in that region next to Israel.

Why are they being left alone? The simple awnser is: Zionism=/=Judaism.

[Carmen]

"If Iran is deadset on killing Jews, then why not start at home? There's I beleive 100,000+ Jews living in Iran. Iran has the second largest Jewish population in that region next to Israel."

Thats actually something pretty important people forget; Iran does have the largest population of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel. I'm sure they face minor discrimination thanks to Israel's actions no doubt, but thats still a very important thing to keep in mind.

[AHVB]

You guys are anti-semitic.

[TS]

http://www.dailytidings.com/2006/0923/stories/0923_iran_qa.php

Q. Are you really serious when you say that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A. We need to look at the scene in the Middle East — 60 years of war, 60 years of displacement, 60 years of conflict, not even a day of peace. Look at the war in Lebanon, the war in Gaza — what are the reasons for these conditions? We need to address and resolve the root problem.

Q. Your suggestion is to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth?

A. Our suggestion is very clear: ... Let the Palestinian people decide their fate in a free and fair referendum, and the result, whatever it is, should be accepted. ... The people with no roots there are now ruling the land.

Q. You've been quoted as saying that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Is that your belief?

A. What I have said has made my position clear. If we look at a map of the Middle East from 70 years ago ...

Q. So, the answer is yes, you do believe that it should be wiped off the face of the Earth?

A. Are you asking me yes or no? Is this a test? Do you respect the right to self-determination for the Palestinian nation? Yes or no? Is Palestine, as a nation, considered a nation with the right to live under humane conditions or not? Let's allow those rights to be enforced for these 5 million displaced people.


I find it odd that Ahmedinejad never backed off of his comments, or mentioned that he had been misquoted or his words removed from context.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=1805

First of all; the striking slogan does not belong to Mr. Ahmedinejad and it is a quotation from Imam Khomeini’s speech. Second, it was used to say that no system is eternal and no unjust regime is undefeatable. Third; phrases can be interpreted in many ways and the result depends on the interpreter’s intention and goodwill. And finally, the words saying that “the occupier regime of Al-Qods must wipe off the map” just mean the Zionist regime not Israeli and Jewish people. The Islamic Republic of Iran’s anti-zionist and anti-american approach is not a new thing. The “death to America” and “death to Israel” slogans exist since the first days of the revolution. But these slogans aimed at American government and Zionist Regime not their nations and people.

Maybe if he didn't want people to think it, he shouldn't have said it.

But in the meantime it can be said that senior officials had avoided such a provocative language in the last decade, but Mr. Ahmadinejad appears to be taking a more confrontational tone than recent Iranian leaders. It shall not be a surprise again, because he comes from a more conservative wing and this fact was known even before his election. Thus, his strict and more sensitive attitude towards Palestinian Problem and anti-zionist approach shall not have a shock effect, as this policy was one of the main pillars of the Islamic Republic of Iran since its foundation. It will be wiser for Iran to be careful and think of herself more than other nations especially in this period that she has lots of problems with international arena concerning her nuclear activities.


What he meant was, at best, ambiguous. To say that he definitely didn't mean it the way it was interpreted (that Israel should be wiped off of the map) needs more support.

[AdverseSolutions]

um, carmen have you ever heard of aq khan?

[Carmen]

"have you ever heard of aq khan?"

Sorry, that totally slipped my mind. In that case it is a legitmate concern, though I still maintain that Iran can't end up being corrupt as India/Pakistan officials can be... at least I'd find it hard to believe. But yea, with that example any additional outlet for nuclear weapons does have a more legitimate concern.

Concerning his comments, while I certainly see why they caused strong reaction it seems that the press are focusing on it too much. He also (the president, that is) said that "We are Not a Threat to Any Country, Including Israel" (http://www.juancole.com/2006/08/ahmadinejad-we-are-not-threat-to-any.html) Believe it, don't believe it... but at least we should be hearing about that as well.

Edit: Now looking at the comment from that page, it seems someone was more observant then me in noting that he also brought up the issue of referendums that you quoted, TS, during the World without Zionism event.) Perhaps is logic was that, and I quote the commenter here: "I guess his logic is that once you implement the right of return, you allow a democratic vote and the natural Palestinian majority simply votes the Zionist system out of existence"? It sounds entirely plausible to me... what do you think?