Who is what tier?

[srt4mike]

I am a newb to ST. I am wondering how the tier breaks down for all of the characters. Thanks for any input!!

[Kyokuji]

You could've just done a search for it. There's been like a dozen tier topics.

It's something like:

O.Sagat
Dhalsim
Claw
Boxer

Dictator
Chun'
Ryu
Deejay
Guile
Ken
Fei-Long
Zangief

Honda (Gets killed by fireballs, but does OK against 'Sim, and owns everyone without one)

T. Hawk
Blanka
Cammy

[Se7in]

Dictator above the Shotos and Guile?

I thought Dic's lack of a definitive anti-air would have knocked him lower.

Another thing to remember in SF2 is that it's mostly based on matchups, not tiers. You can be good with pretty much any character.

[jactiaf]

please note that this tier ranking excludes original characters

tier 1
bison (dictator)
vega (claw)
DJ
Balrog (boxer)
Ryu
Dhalsim

Tier 2

E honda-
Fei Long
Guile
Sagat

Tier 3

Chun Li
Ken
Cammy

Tier 4

Blanka
T. Hawk
Zangief

although please also note that O. Sagat would probably be in the top tier if original characters were to be included. And don't take this ranking or tier (or anyone elses) set up as the Gospel as i have seen very good blanka, t. hawk, and Zangief players (Kuni anyone?) do some major damage, as well as Cammy (whom i'm wonderful with and James Chen is a beast with) but by in large, this should help you out.

[Ouroborus]

Dictator above the Shotos and Guile?

I thought Dic's lack of a definitive anti-air would have knocked him lower.

Another thing to remember in SF2 is that it's mostly based on matchups, not tiers. You can be good with pretty much any character.

huge throw range, fast walking speed, long range normals and powerful combos made up for his lack of anti air.

imo,

undisputed top tier:
sim
old sagat
balrog (negro)

high tier:
vega (spaniard)
bison (dictator)
ryu

second tier:
chun
guile
deejay
ken

third tier:
fei long
honda
blanka

bottom tier:
gief
cammy
t hawk

[Kyokuji]

balrog (negro)
Lol.

tier 1
bison (dictator)
vega (claw)
DJ
Balrog (boxer)
Ryu
Dhalsim

Tier 2

E honda-
Fei Long
Guile
Sagat

Tier 3

Chun Li
Ken
Cammy

Tier 4

Blanka
T. Hawk
Zangief

Cammy, Honda, Fei and Dictator are way too high.
Chun', 'Gief, and Dhalsim are way too low.
First tier is way too big.

[cam347]

yeah I dunno bout Bison being top, not reliable AA cept standing far HP, crouching HP or vetical jump MK but that's still not enough really. And only reversal is his super and no defense at all.

[jactiaf]

Well, to better clarify...

The top tier is large i admit but at the same time i think this really highlights the balance of ST. Some might debate forever over who should be number one but i simply feel that characters like dictator and DJ simply have what it takes to be int he same ranks with elite tier and would have too much if placed in a second tier. Sim, ryu, claw and boxer are all talented and worthy of number one but at the same time Dic and DJ aren't anything to scoff at either imo.

I think it can be fairly agreed that while cammy is clearly not top tier, she certainly will have a better chance (50% imo) against ryu, (60%) agaist sim than blanka, hawk or gief would have, although all four would struggle against boxer but cammy would have a 50% chance against claw whereas blanka, hawk, and Gief would have a much harder time. And against Chun, cammy'd have a very slight advantage against her than Blanka, Gief or hawk, as those three woudl just outright struggle and just wouldn't be able to hold up as well. And needless to say, in a head to head match (again imo) Cammy would have at least a 60% chance agaisnt blanka, gief, and hawk. And while i admit you don't see too many cammy players in too many Super Turbo tourneys (except of course james chen) you sure as hell don't see too many hawk, blanka, or gief players either unelss you're in japan.

Honda does lack speed but he can jump over FBs fairly well and he's a cheap bastard to boot with pretty good reach and strength. While i agree Dictator lacks a decent AA, he makes up for it with good air speed and a versatile head stomp that can be mixed up enough to cause some confusion. Plus his standing roundhouse and forward have a good reach in snuffing out attacks.

As for Fei, if played with an in-your-face aggressiveness and can stay a step ahead of the opponent, Fei can wreck havoc or at the least hold his own. Aggressive Fei players are a pain to deal with if they have you trapped in a corner. match that with his chunky combo's and I feel he'll give anyone a run for their money. He has a pretty good mix up game that can keep people off balance as well so that was my logic with placing him where i did.

Chun is quite talented and can always sneak a good combo or two but against boxer, claw, ryu, sim, honda, shoot, even guile, she'll come awfully close but just won't be able to pull off the win. Sooner or later (if her opponent is smart enough and not a scrub) chun's pattern will be decoded and she'll just be a lame duck.

Sim, like the other characters in my first tier, i belive, are all capable of winning (and some have been used on the way to) a championship. Sim is quite a beast but at the same time its not like he's a total dominant over the likes of ryu, claw, and boxer either. He certainly can win as demonstrated by jason cole and Alex wolfe but its not like he's winning championship fights in a 3-0 sweep either.

As for gief,

well, unless you have the precission hands of japanese players like Kuni, his lack of speed (and lariat to boot) just don't help his cause. Needless to say, even if i did have a higher opinion of Gief's ability to win, there are just way too many better characters to choose from besides Gief. Can he win some games? Sure, but there are a lot more characters that can win plenty more than gief, so that's why i put him, hawk, and blanka in the dregs. Are there exceptions to tiers? Sure. The japanese players can use Hawk and Gief in freakish ways and Joeresio Rex (#1 ranked CVS2 player on XBL whom i've played in person amany times on numerous SF games) is a real pain with Blanka and Honda in ST. But for the most part, i just don't see people racking up wins with blanka, hawk and gief. But that's why i love ST so much, is bc with enough time, any character on any given day can raise absolute hell. Cuz you sure as hell won't be seeing any Dan players in any finals any time soon lol

[Kyokuji]

Those aren't actual reasons though. In the first paragraph, you're just tossing out figures without any actual in-depth evidence (or any evidence at all) to back them up.
You can't just go "Cammy has a 50% chance of beating so and so" and leave it at that. Where are you getting these percentages from? Your ass?
Read James himself's reasons for why Cammy is low in the Cammy thread. I'd like to think he knows her a hell of a lot better than you do.

Blanka has a huge throw range as well as a quick jump speed and tons of high priority normals. All of which Cammy lacks. He also has a relatively safe chip move from far away (provided he's not fighting 'Sim), that again, Cammy lacks.

Honda can jump over fireballs? Lol.
Have fun getting DP'ed.

Sim is quite a beast but at the same time its not like he's a total dominant over the likes of ryu, claw, and boxer either.

Out of those 3. Only claw really gives him a hard time. He can easily drill over Ryu's fireballs, and his standing RH keeps him from jumping. DP's can hurt him, but that means that the risk is all on the Ryu player's end, since if he whiffs, he's getting a s. MK or worse.
He doesn't really have much trouble with boxer unless he gets him into the corner somehow, and so long as you watch out when 'Rog gets meter, the risk is again mostly on their end. Headbutts past his fireballs can be punished with RH/MK, and dash punches can be stuffed with slides or s./c. MP's. O. 'Rog often actually gives you more trouble because his dashes hit you even if you're crouching.

And what do you mean 'Gief doesn't have his lariat?
I don't see how anyone can put him below Hawk since he has way more range on his command throw, and he has a much easier time getting past fireballs; not to mention better normals in general.

All you've done is spout off opinions without showing that you have any real understanding of how some of these match-ups work in real time. Too many "I feel" and "could" or "would" statements in there. Half your reasons sound like they came right out of a player's guide's description of the characters or something, and you contradict your second paragraph at the end.

[jactiaf]

(sigh) jeez…

First, I did a set of tiers, not actual rankings, none of the characters had numbers next to their names, thus meaning that they’re actual rank can be debated. Just because sim was at the bottom of the first tier and dic at the top doesn’t mean that’s how I rank them in a tier (and the same thing goes with hawk, gief, and blanka). Its just how I typed their names out.

Second, srt4mike was just asking for tiers, I gave my take on them, and as I mentioned, I made note of not to take my rankings (or anyone else’s) as the absolute truth. I guess I should have echoed this more evidently.

Third, srt4mike made note that he was a newb to ST. Because of that, I didn’t want to throw in too many details and overwhelm and or confuse him (although I‘m sure what I type later on will do that, and if so, I sincerely apologize srt4mike). I have no idea if he’s a vet at one SFer or multple SFers, therefore, I’m just going to make some condensed comments and leave it at that. And I do this because when I try to learn something new, I prefer to absorb in basic bits, and once I have the basics down, then I’ll move onto the more technical stuff.

Blanka’s throw range is good but useless if he gets zoned in by Fireballs. True he can slide underneath but most would know this ahead of time and have a plan b set up like a tiger knee or a short hurricane kick into a throw. At least Cam’s jab spinning knuckle can pass through them and her flying frankensteiner can leap over them. Blanka’s jump speed is also impressive but could be just as easily countered by an equally as quick canon spike or dragon punch. Plus, on the note of blanka, his rolling attacks aren’t the hardest thing to counter when blocked. If bison blocks a rolling attack, he can psycho crush it, ryu, DJ, and sim can fireball it, boxer and claw can get a free fierce punch in. Cam’s canon spike can also be easily countered but she has a much quicker recovery time and can sometimes come out scratch free from a blocked canon spike, whereas a blocked rolling attack will have a better chance of getting nailed.

Blanka’s ground game does have great priority with good damage as well but cammy’s ability to move in and out of hit range while sticking out standing fierce punches and roundhouse kicks, or crouching forward kicks or strong punches (which can lead into a canon spike or super) give her a decent edge. And she does lack a good chip game but she has a better cross up game that makes up for it. Hawk and Gief’s lack of speed and large bodies are another reason why I put them in the dregs. They are powerful and gief can move through fireballs but there’s just a lot of them to hit and cross up. Hawk at least has some type of anti-air on wake up, Gief has the lariat but even that won‘t save him too often. And on the note of the lariat, I meant to type his lack of low lariat, because the lack of such allows him to get swept a lot more often. He can pass through guile’s sonic boom (for instance) with his banishing fist or a lariat but guile can still hit him with a crouching forward or sweep him afterwards either way.

Ouroborus helped clarify earlier why bison (dictator) could be viewed as top tier so that’s why I felt minimal need to go further down that road, and DJ I feel is top tier for these reasons

His super (like Honda’s) can be used to travel through fireballs and can also be used for juggling purposes like doing his super then immediately following with a jack knife kick or doing a jack knife kick then following immediately with his super.

His jack knife is a wonderful anti air

His crouching short kick can snuff a lot of attacks as can his other basic attacks while doing decent damage at the same time.

His jumping forward kick is an easy cross up tool that can lead to some devastating combo’s (Cross up forward kick, a few crouching jabs, super, jack knife blade kick is one of many)
Because of his solid normal attacks, his strong AA jack knife kick, a wicked super, and the fact that it can be tough to sweep DJ, this puts him in my top tier.

Honda was placed in the second tier because his sumo smash is quick enough to fly over numerous fireballs before there is time to counteract, and even if so, Honda could probably win the damage exchange anyway. Plus, his orochi grab can be put to cheap use very well (jump in with a blocked jumping short, land orochi grab or do a sumo smash that lands right in front of a crouching opponent that misses then orochi grab for instance) Shoot you can even do a bear hug, sumo splash (and then if blocked) orochi grab. Zoning Honda can be quite tricky as he can just sumo smash right over the fireballs and gain ground. His standing roundhouse is also good for taking down opponents who block high. Put all those elements together and Honda can be a pain.

Sim can zone out both boxer and ryu, but boxer can trade hits with sim and usually come out on top. Boxers speed of attacks can often push sim into a corner and then from there a good fight will ensue. Ryu can jap dragon punch sim’s limbs and his hurricane kick can advance him over sim’s limbs (and I believe) fireballs as well, as can his jab dragon punch. And because his jab dragon punch has such a quick recovery time, he could immediately do another to knock out a long limb Plus a swept sim against a rushing ryu has a lot of thinking to do quick as ryu could T+Strong punch him then sweep him, cross him over, or do a low short kick into a stun fireball or if blocked get thrown. His punch drill can be kicked out by ryu by jumping straight up and hitting roundhouse kick.

I’m not saying ryu would dominate but sim wouldn’t win every round with only ¾ of his health left. And the same goes for boxer. Shoot, just like at the evo 2006 west finals. Boxer did take some losses but at least in three or four rounds that Dhali won against boxer were won with less than 5% health left, if that. That’s not getting owned. That’s a nearly lost round.

And again to srt4mike, I hope these tiers will give you a bit of an idea of how diverse and balanced this game can be. I feel one way (gief should be in a lower tier), some other people feel another (gief should be in a higher tier). I hope these tiers will give you some idea of where to start, although they may also confuse you too, and if that’s the case, sorry about that. I’m sure there will be another “you’re wrong/your reasons are baseless” comment after this post of mine, which is fine as I‘ll leave those alone to collect dust, but I hope those who did post up tiers were able to help you out with your question. Often times (as I’m sure you’ve seen) people will post something then lose track of the immediate question (just look at what I posted) and go off somewhere else. I made that mistake of going off topic and I’m sorry that doing such distracted from your original question. Good luck finding a fun character to use, as ST has lots of them!

[Kyokuji]

I'm not going to drag this out, so I'm just going to say that most of that is very poor reasoning.
The list I posted is a slight edit of NKI's which is reflective of not only his opinions, but the widely held opinions of many high level american and japanese players. All of whom I can guarantee know the game better than you.

The only character I think you could argue with on mine is Chun' since I stuck her above Ryu.

[Ouroborus]

snip

okay, you are just listing the worst possible outcomes for blanka, while listing favorable outcomes for cammy.

Blanka’s throw range is good but useless if he gets zoned in by Fireballs. True he can slide underneath but most would know this ahead of time and have a plan b set up like a tiger knee or a short hurricane kick into a throw. At least Cam’s jab spinning knuckle can pass through them and her flying frankensteiner can leap over them.

you can say the same about everyones throw. and who says you cant bait their tiger knee/hurricane kick and upball afterwards? also its possible to throw cammy out of her jab knuckle before it even connects


Blanka’s jump speed is also impressive but could be just as easily countered by an equally as quick canon spike or dragon punch.

still not as easy as dping cammy when jumping in or 80% of the cast. only other character thats much harder to dp out of the air is vega and sim.


Plus, on the note of blanka, his rolling attacks aren’t the hardest thing to counter when blocked. If bison blocks a rolling attack, he can psycho crush it, ryu, DJ, and sim can fireball it, boxer and claw can get a free fierce punch in.

smart blankas dont spam on blanka balls but use them mainly to position and set up throws and crossups

Blanka’s ground game does have great priority with good damage as well but cammy’s ability to move in and out of hit range while sticking out standing fierce punches and roundhouse kicks, or crouching forward kicks or strong punches (which can lead into a canon spike or super) give her a decent edge.

while she does have a fast walking speed, her moves dont have much range. more than half the cast has better range than her, including blanka. how can you say this gives her a decent edge when the fact is more than half the cast has better reach than her


And she does lack a good chip game but she has a better cross up game that makes up for it.

funny, considering blanka has like one of the best crossups in the game. the tip of his j.lk is almost invincible.

[Strike]

Those wacky tiers are from an old 1994 issue of GamPRO.... GAMEPRO! They mean nothing. :looney:

[Kyokuji]

Lmao, I knew those tiers and descriptions sounded like something out of a magazine or something, I just couldn't put my finger on it.

[Footsy Bebop]

I read this on one of NKI's threads in which he was translating what Daigo said. According to Daigo:

Top: Sim and Chun

Second: Rog

Third: Ryu

I'm not sure but I think you'd have to put O. Sagat in there somewhere too.

[tataki]

T3h N3W Ti3r Li5t I5 ThI5:

ToP Tier!!:

Old TIHOK!

Low tier:
ALL T3h R35t

[jchensor]

I personally don't think Cammy is the worst in the game. Just 'cause T.Hawk and Zangief are in the game. ^_^ Seriously, though, if you make broad enough tiers, yeah, Cammy is in the bottom tier. That's the beauty of the game, even low tier characters can win, just like the two Hawks at this past X-Mania. And just 'cause they CAN win, doesn't mean it's time to bump them up in rankings. Cammy, Zangief, and T.Hawk are the bottom tier in this game, order is debatable.

And to counter some specific points:

I think it can be fairly agreed that while cammy is clearly not top tier, she certainly will have a better chance (50% imo) against ryu, (60%) agaist sim than blanka, hawk or gief would have, although all four would struggle against boxer but cammy would have a 50% chance against claw whereas blanka, hawk, and Gief would have a much harder time. And against Chun, cammy'd have a very slight advantage against her than Blanka, Gief or hawk, as those three woudl just outright struggle and just wouldn't be able to hold up as well. And needless to say, in a head to head match (again imo) Cammy would have at least a 60% chance agaisnt blanka, gief, and hawk. And while i admit you don't see too many cammy players in too many Super Turbo tourneys (except of course james chen) you sure as hell don't see too many hawk, blanka, or gief players either unelss you're in japan.

Zangief is way better against Ryu than Cammy. T.Hawk is probably also better, as there are many who believe T.Hawk actually have an advantage in that fight. Thing is, Cammy REALLY has to know what she's doing to beat a good Ryu, whereas T.Hawk doesn't have to be as precise. Cammy is NO BETTER than 50/50 with Ryu, whereas it is debatable that Gief and T.Hawk are. Cammy is AT BEST 50/50 with Ryu, and that's really stretching it. Ryu has the advantage in this fight, no question. Blanka, I'm not sure. I think Blanka might also have a slight advantage over Cammy against Ryu, but I don't know enough about the fight.

Cammy owns up Dhalsim for free compared to Zangief and T.Hawk. Blanka, again, I'm not sure since I'm not all tht familiar with Blanka.

Chun Li, I would think Cammy has a better chance against her than Gief, T.Hawk, and Blanka, 'cause she can kinda keep up with Chun Li. I don't know what the win ratio is for those three vs. Chun Li, but with Cammy, I'd say it's 6/4 in favor of Chun Li just because of the stupid issue that Cammy can't deal well with the meaty Offensive Crouch + Roundhouse.

In the head-to-head matchups, first up is Cammy vs. Blanka. I will say this much: the fight is pretty even. I can't say I've played super expert Blankas, but it's not a fight I dread. There are so many other characters that can cause problems for Cammy, and Blanka isn't one of them. In any case, neither character really has a distinct advantage in this fight, IMO. So it's not far from 50/50. But I think if the Blanka knows what he is doing, it'll probably shift slightly in Blanka's favor. Blanka's that don't know what they are doing will get mopped up by Cammy.

Cammy vs. Zangief is really hard for Gief. Cammy wins this fight, probably 8/2 or 7/3. Cammy can EASILY lose this fight, though, if she gets careless and playful. Too hard for Gief to get in on her. His best chance is to trade Crouch Roundhouse with her Low Forward. You do waaaay more damage and knock her down. If you can out mind games her from there, when she gets up, you will win. But if you can't get in on her, it's a really big problem.

Cammy owns up T.Hawk almost for free without even needing to compare it to other people fighting T.Hawk. This fight is easily 9/1 in favor of Cammy IMO. Probably one of the worst match-ups in the game.

Now, after all that, knowing Cammy beats up other low tier characters doesn't mean she's better than them. I personally think she is slightly better than Gief and Hawk tier-wise, but that's only because I use her, feel comfy with her, and am biased.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[srt4mike]

Thanks for all the info guys! I didn't want to start a real heated debate. I just wanted a basic list. All this info really helps though. We're switchin' it up a bit from 3s and really enjoying it. Now I must start my Ryu and Dee Jay training ::wonder:

[Ouroborus]

Cammy owns up T.Hawk almost for free without even needing to compare it to other people fighting T.Hawk. This fight is easily 9/1 in favor of Cammy IMO. Probably one of the worst match-ups in the game.

http://jchensor.blogspot.com

yeah i heard cammy owns this fight with only one button, :mk:

[nomrah]

I read this on one of NKI's threads in which he was translating what Daigo said. According to Daigo:

Top: Sim and Chun

Second: Rog

Third: Ryu

I'm not sure but I think you'd have to put O. Sagat in there somewhere too.

It might be because O. Sagat is soft banned in Japan (dunno if that's still true) so maybe he doesn't play enough O. Sagats to include him in the rankings?

[Kyokuji]

The Japanese don't seem to have much interest in O. Sagat or O. Ken the way american players do. In fact, I think it was the american players that showed them how good O. Sagat was in the first place.

I've heard of soft bans for both O. Sagat and Claw, but who knows how many arcades this actually applies to, or how many people actually care enough for that to be an issue.

Who really knows why they don't pick him though. Power Zantetsu is god tier in Last Blade 2, and I never ever see him at tourneys either. The ones I do see are usually pretty bad, and that goes for both characters.
It can't just be an honour thing, because in other games, you see tons of Yuns, V-Akumas/V-Sakuras, Chois, etc.
Maybe they find him boring to use or something.

[Spirited_Away]

Your forgetting that O.Sagat barely has any strategy besides fireballing like mad and uppercutting.

The idea of such gameplay is not interesting for them I guess, it's not because he's overpowered they play other overpowered characters in ST and other games (Cvs2 Sagat !).

I guess they also like a challenge :wgrin:

[BoggleMinds]

John Choi mentioned in his Japan trip log that no-one uses O. Sagat because he's too cheap/easy/simple. Kurahashi said there was one player who used N.Sagat, who, if he decided to switch to O.Sagat, would wipe the floor with everyone.

[SNK Guitarist]

I always considered Boxer to be higher than O. Sagat

[Professor Jones]

Kurahashi said there was one player who used N.Sagat, who, if he decided to switch to O.Sagat, would wipe the floor with everyone.

I think he was referring to the player named "yaya". IMO japanese players don't pick O. Sagat because he's too boring to play and one dimensional.

[Se7in]

I always considered Boxer to be higher than O. Sagat

Isn't Boxer favored in that matchup?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VnG-OBPYa2I

What Daigo does to Choi from 4:10 till the end is the textbook definition of rape.

[SNK Guitarist]

Isn't Boxer favored in that matchup?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VnG-OBPYa2I

What Daigo does to Choi from 4:10 till the end is the textbook definition of rape.

I would LOVE to play boxer like that, but I don't think I have the patience.

[Se7in]

I would LOVE to play boxer like that, but I don't think I have the patience.

Patience isn't the majority of playing boxer. There's tons of ways to close that distance with mind games, TAP/Headbutt through FB'sm etc.

The main part of playing with Boxer is rushdown and not letting an opponent get a chance to strike back. It's mainly lockdown.

[SNK Guitarist]

Patience isn't the majority of playing boxer. There's tons of ways to close that distance with mind games, TAP/Headbutt through FB'sm etc.

The main part of playing with Boxer is rushdown and not letting an opponent get a chance to strike back. It's mainly lockdown.

I was talking mainly about getting TAP'ing incorporated into my gameplay, that's where my paintence falls through. I've heard of the method that Graham uses, but it seems extremely awkward to me.

[Se7in]

I was talking mainly about getting TAP'ing incorporated into my gameplay, that's where my paintence falls through. I've heard of the method that Graham uses, but it seems extremely awkward to me.

OIC

Back to the topic, what advantages does Dictator have over Sim, since I saw Dic over Sim in one of the tier lists?

[Kyokuji]

None. That guy's tier list is some retarded shit off an old issue of gamepro
Dic' can stuff 'Sim's far drills with FP, but that's about all I've seen.
Up close, he still gets drilled to death.

[polarity]

Even if that list was accurate, a character doesn't necessarily have the advantage over every character below them in the tiers.

[Graham]

yo, been a while since i posted here but since i wrote the old school rankings in my old strategy guides i figured its a good topic to comment on.

first let me address a few things. Old sagat is not played in japan because he is boring, they dont play for money over there so fun is the driving force behind playing games ,and if a character is boring to them, they dont want to play him even if he wins alot. Winning is a driving force in america i think, i play to win, so does my brother, we have fun winning but winning ranks higher than having fun with your character in my book.

Someone posted about balrog being rushdown, this is true in some matchups, in others you must learn patience.

ST Bisons anti air is jumping toward and strong, its very effective, even stops drills if done at the same time as the drill.

Ok as for tiers...keep in my this is my opinion and not my bros.

Top tier:
Dhalsim, Balrog, Old Sagat

Second Tier:
Chun Li, Vega

Third Tier:
Ryu, Ken, Old Guile, E Honda, DJ, Old Balrog, ST Bison

Fourth Tier:
Blanka, Zangief, Thawk, ST Guile

Bottom Tier:
Fei Long, Cammy

Any char i didnt mention prolly not too important to me.

Keep in mind i feel any char can win at times. But this is how i rate chars based off their potential to get wins. If you put each char vs the rest of the cast 10 games each this is how i feel they would stack up in win %. Even though Old sagat loses to balrog and dhalsim imo, he still destroys everyone else so i put him in top tier, because his chance to win vs the rest is higher than balrog or dhalsim in alot of matches. Same goes for alot of the other chars. Also keep in mind its 2 am, if anything past the top 2 tiers is a bit sketchy its cause im tired lol, but question me on it and ill give you my reasons.

One last thing im adding on. As human beings we have our good days and bad days in anything including sf2. What this translates to in my rankings is how easily you win a match. If old sagat destroys gief like an 8/2 or whatever out of best of 10 of 2 pros playing it. Then on a bad day he will still do ok in the match even if the player of old sagat isnt feeling as up to par as usual. Now take a match like dhalsim vs balrog and if dhalsim isnt playing his best he might lose that matchup. This to me is another factor in my rankings, if old sagat has such a huge advantage that on a bad day i still win then obviously he is going to rank higher than a char that might have more advantage matches but not as huge as an advantage. This is why i rank balrog and old sagat so high even though both of them have some bad matchups. Because both chars can be played and won with even if the player isnt feeling himself. This is also why i put vega on a lower tier than them, because although he might do better vs some chars like say vs dhalsim whereas old sagat has more difficulty, he still doesnt have a huge advantage vs the other characters, he does beat alot of chars but not by a huge amount where i can be drunk as cole or high as nelson and still win with old sagat.

[NKI]

Curious why you like O.Guile over N.Guile. I know O.Guile is better in a few specific matches, but I think I like N.Guile better over all.

[Graham]

Curious why you like O.Guile over N.Guile. I know O.Guile is better in a few specific matches, but I think I like N.Guile better over all.

n.guile is shittier imo. less damage (i think) and less counters.

old guile has the standing roundhouse which is a huge part of his game. He also has the standing short while charged.

im sure new guile is prolly better in some matchups but old guile has his basic style that works in alot of matches where new guile lacking that roundhouse cannot do as much in some situations or say vs dhalsim cannot do standing short to counter dhalsims low punches during critical moments or vs djs slide.

i guess my take on it is he can put a bigger dent in some of the top tier chars, like sim, balrog, etc. but to be honest i dont know how much potential new guile has. I know ive seen old guile in action when thomas used to use him and he did alot of winning with him back in the day.

[Ouroborus]

how do u use o. guiles standing hk anyways? what situations do u use it in?

[Graham]

how do u use o. guiles standing hk anyways? what situations do u use it in?

lets say ryu is near you, like out of low forward range, you throw a sonic boom, he decides to jump when he sees it, you arent charged for flashkick, so you press standing hk as he comes in, since you're still recovering from the sonic boom you cannot do a jumping air counter. But standing highkick fits the situation perfectly.

[jchensor]

Also, I think it's good to point out, even if it does sound obvious, that one of the biggest advantages of Guile's Roundhouse as anti-air is that you can hold back and do it, so you are charged to throw a Sonic Boom right afterwards. So if you are at the right distance, don't walk forward and Roundhouse them out of the air if you don't have to. But, usually if you could have walked forward to Roundhouse them in time, you are recovered early enough that you have a lot more options than just Roundhouse.

- James
http://jchensor.blogspot.com

[r3ko]

Back to the topic, what advantages does Dictator have over Sim, since I saw Dic over Sim in one of the tier lists?

Dic' can stuff 'Sim's far drills with FP, but that's about all I've seen.
Up close, he still gets drilled to death.

Your right about HP stopping long range drills, but you got to have good reactions, otherwise you'll end up trading (in your favor) or being beaten. So if you can't get the HP, then go with LP, just smash it, it will stop LK and MK from medium to long ranges.

Up close is where the problems are at. If your lucky enough not to be in block stun when sim tries a drill, you should be able to jump MP before the opponent gets the drill out. You can't do scissors and crusher as they will get hit.

As long as you don't let yourself get stuck in the corner, bison should be able to put good pressure on Sim with his Pokes, and punish whiffed limbs with scissors or crushers. Also since sim doesn't have a reversal, when you knock him down you can jump in or cross-up thanks to bisons' long jump.

This match is all about not letting the other get in, cause unlike some of his other matches, i don't think sim can afford to sit back and just react to what bison does, hes got to take the initiative, and put lots of pressure on Bison so he doesn't have the freedom of moving around and taking advantage of the massive damage his pokes deal out. Bison on the other hand needs to get those knock downs to start his cross-ups, jump-ins, throw mind games.

Overall i'd rate this match as a 50/50, but in no way do i think Bison is higher than Sim in the tiers. Its my personal opinion that Sim is the best legal character in the game. He has a move for every single situation and can be played in anyway you want, and i doubt he has a single bad matchup. Only a few characters can really trouble him, such as Honda, Chun and Vega, but no where near to the point of hopeless. Bison has a few hard matches especially Honda and Chun. Gief, deejay, guile and rog can also be quite bad.

=============================================

Bringing the convo back to N.guile vs O.guile. I think you gotta go with N.guile. Sure O.guile has got some advantages, like standing HK, kepting his charge on Backfist and standing LK. Hes really just a shadow of his CPS1 days. Most of his moves have had quite a nerfing. N.guile has to be played totally differently from his past versions and i think this is were people tend to fall over.

Looking at N.guile's moves, most notably his controllable MK, advancing HK and crossup LK. N.guile is more geared to being an offensive character rather than his old defensive orienated self. Cps2 guile's booms are no where near as good, they come out further away from his body, meaning its no longer good to keep up with other fireball characters, but the recovery is still good. Now St guile has got more options than ever before to follow his boom. Also closing the gap after a boom is much better with HK than the Hop in most situations, But N.guile still has the hop so its all good.

Sure St guile's super is rubbish, but its still very comboable from crossups and a good anti-air. Even if this is not enough, you can at least take solace from the fact that you can tech throws.

I think the move st guile misses most is not the HK, but the c.HP. Even O.guile's c.HP is crap. In cps1 c.HP was a really good anti-air that would at the very least trade with most attacks, giving him great cover after he throws a boom. Now you'll be lucky to even get a trade.

Anyway enough of my rambling, look forward to more interesting discussion later.

Just like to thank NKI, the wolfe bros, j.chen and other good players for keeping the ST discussion going, without you guys there would be very little to talk about. I can't wait to go to America for evo next year where i'll hopefully get to play some of you.

laters
r3ko

[FSgamer]

Does anybody know where I can find a match-up chart? I think that would be even more helpful than tier lists.

[Graham]

Does anybody know where I can find a match-up chart? I think that would be even more helpful than tier lists.

say the matches and ill try my best to answer with my opinion o n the matter.

[ThisGuileKillYa]

Hey graham, I'm intrigued by what you're saying about old Guile, so ive been messing with him. The stand short stuff is nice, but what else are you doing with him since he does seem to have all the fun advancing stuff(outside stand forward) that new guile has. basically, what's your O guile gameplan outside of having a nice new aa? (feel free to put this in the guile thread in stead of here, makes no diff to me tho)

PS. congrats on your and your brothers' performances at evo! I heard a lot about you guys from Neil (cigarbob), who's a friend of mine and always made fun of me for being a "pad scrub." Did you guys plug in some 'trollers at evo or go strictly stickly?

[FSgamer]

say the matches and ill try my best to answer with my opinion on the matter.
Guile vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat
Ryu vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat

[Kyokuji]

Guile vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat
Ryu vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat
What I can say is that O. Sagat is gonna give them both a ton of trouble. He's O. Sagat. He's a bad match-up for like everybody except Dhalsim and Boxer.

[Graham]

Guile vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat
Ryu vs Dhalsim/Boxer/O. Sagat

Guile vs Sim, You play the most patient game you've ever played, throwing sonic booms only in counter to the yoga fire, do alot of blocking, low forwards when he approaches close, occasionally you will have to jump and kick early with forward when he does a yoga fire to catch up since he can out-fireball you, from full screen sometimes you can do a prediction jump vs a yoga fire and roundhouse him, other than that, block alot.

Guile vs Boxer, low forwards to keep him out, and sonic boom of course, its a very textbook match for guile.

Guile vs O.sagat, this is a hard one, youll have to jump straight up alot over fireballs, use the standing forward without pressing toward or away to go over low fireballs on occasion, and use the toward or back+forward knee when you meet sagats low fireballs with your sonic boom and are close enough to knee him.

Ryu vs Dhalsim, alot of styles to play this match, i prefer the daigo method, dl some of his vids, he jumps away and does hurricanes till super is charged then approaches and uses it when your opponent either does a yoga fire or low limbs, once you knock down sim, use the mixup on his get-ups, thats either the overhead punch into low roundhouse, or low forward into red fireball knockdown.

Ryu vs Boxer, tough match im not sure how to win it, i dont play ryu enough.

Ryu vs O.Sagat same

[Se7in]

I know when I play against Boxer with Ryu, you want to spam c. forward a lot to interrupt Boxer's dashes. Fireballing him helps a little, but there's lot's of ways he can punish you. A lot of winning in this match goes to spamming DP's and c. forwards. If you can constantly push him back and keep momentum in your favor, you got it.

[Graham]

I know when I play against Boxer with Ryu, you want to spam c. forward a lot to interrupt Boxer's dashes. Fireballing him helps a little, but there's lot's of ways he can punish you. A lot of winning in this match goes to spamming DP's and c. forwards. If you can constantly push him back and keep momentum in your favor, you got it.

till he bops you with a low strong into low dash punch when ytou miss a dp, or a low dash on missed low forwards, but id replace the dp with short hurricane kick, not as punishable

[Return of Shiki]

What happened to that link to the Japanese site that had the Matchup ranking for all SF2 games?

[NKI]

Do you mean T-Akiba's site?

It's still around, but the rankings are not accurate...

http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/diagrama.html
http://games.t-akiba.net/sf2/diagramb.html

[Return of Shiki]

Yeah...that's the one.

But what's wrong with the rankings? Not I would doubt if it wasn't 100% correct, but are there any gross inaccuracies?

[NKI]

Actually, it looks like he updated it since the last time I saw it. The top tier is pretty accurate except for the mysterious inclusion of DeeJay...

[Ouroborus]

i dont understand japanese, can you help me encode the chart?

[Desk]

This was taken from the match up chart (win/lose, X/O)

1 akuma
2 O sagat, Sim
4 Claw
5 Boxer
6 O sim
7 Deejay
8 O Claw, Guile
10 Ryu, Sagat
12 0 Guile, Chun
14 O Chun
15 O boxer
16 Honda
17 Blanka
18 O ryu
19 Fei, Dic
21 O ken, O Honda
23 O deejay
24 O fei, Ken
26 Cammy, O Cammy, O Dic
29 Hawk, O Hawk
31 Geif,
32 O Gief, O Blanka


I'm pretty sure thats right. I'll edit if I got anything wrong

[Ouroborus]

is this the tier list?

[r3ko]

Yeh, but seems really weird to me. He has Deejay at 7th, but O.Deejay at 23rd, while at the same time ST chun is at 12th and O.Chun at 13th. The differences from old to new for the these characters are basically the same, super, techs and a reversal antiair kicks, but such a massive rank increase for Deejay but not for Chun. Why are Ken and especially Dic so low in the rankings. Also isn't O.Hawk suprerior to ST Hawk, but why same rank? Also why is guile ranked as high as he is... But the rest of the list looks alot more plausible.

[Ouroborus]

yeah, dictator bison is wayy too low.

[BKB]

Blanka is better than Dic and Ken.

Go Blanka! lol

[Spirited_Away]

This is the only ST ranking with O.versions, we need to check each match-up to actually realize why some top characters are lower in this ranking.

But still the top 10 are about right (maybe except N.Sagat), Deejay plays well against many characters and everything with him is easy combos, crossups and high priority on most of his crouching attacks (low strong, low fierce are almost unbeatable).

O.Hawk is not by a chance superior ! he just has better crossups and some moves have a wider hit box but any match up that's bad for N.Hawk is also bad for O.Hawk.

[r3ko]

This is the only ST ranking with O.versions, we need to check each match-up to actually realize why some top characters are lower in this ranking.

But still the top 10 are about right (maybe except N.Sagat), Deejay plays well against many characters and everything with him is easy combos, crossups and high priority on most of his crouching attacks (low strong, low fierce are almost unbeatable).

O.Hawk is not by a chance superior ! he just has better crossups and some moves have a wider hit box but any match up that's bad for N.Hawk is also bad for O.Hawk.

So explain the o.Deejay thing for me, almost exactly the same as ST Deejay when it comes to normals and combos, so why such a huge rank difference between them?

Also having those better normals for o.hawk, minus his super and ability to tech should make some matches easier for him, so he should be a slightly higher rank.

[NKI]

There may be more than meets the eye with the old characters. For example, O.DeeJay's Machine Gun Upper is completely invincible, and O.Chun's far st.Strong (arguably N.Chun's best normal) can't hit characters that are ducking (see NKI Volume IX for example).

I'm not saying those two reasons alone justify the rankings, but don't just assume that old characters simply lose super, tech hits, and maybe a special move.

I'm gonna wait until I see Toutanki's O.Hawk before I make a judgement on which Hawk is better, but I have a hunch it's N.Hawk. That super just does tooooo much damage.

[r3ko]

I'm just curious why theres such a huge rank difference between Deejay and o.deejay.

[Anthracks]

I can't read Japanese, so could anyone decode all of those other charts please... and what are they for...

[RWD]

I'm gonna wait until I see Toutanki's O.Hawk before I make a judgement on which Hawk is better, but I have a hunch it's N.Hawk. That super just does tooooo much damage.
I would personally say Old is a better overall character than New - his normals are hella better and so is his DP which, IMO, is far more important than his Super.

Then again, I suppose you could go off the theory of "can you land the Super consistantly? If yes, use New, if no, use Old".

I'm just curious why theres such a huge rank difference between Deejay and o.deejay.
Off the top of my head O. Deejay loses the easy to abuse, monster crossover j. MK, his projectile has slightly more recovery time, having no upkicks kinda sucks since it is a decent anti-air which can lead into free Super... there really isn't any reason to use Old over New unless you totally love the MGU.

[NKI]

I can't read Japanese, so could anyone decode all of those other charts please... and what are they for...http://nki.combovideos.com/ST

[LuvMyCap]

when you guys said old, does it mean any old street fighter or there is a specific old street fighter for each character? Or the one before the last street fighter?

[polarity]

when you guys said old, does it mean any old street fighter or there is a specific old street fighter for each character? Or the one before the last street fighter?

what

[LuvMyCap]

my bad, i mean when you guys said old ken or old guile, which version you mean.

[felineki]

We're referring only to Super Turbo here. "Old" refers to the special modes that can be selected in ST by inputting a code at the character select screen. These "old" characters play mostly like they did in SSF2, but there are a few small differences.

[CB]

i thought boxer was the best???????

[Kyokuji]

Boxer isn't as braindead easy to use as O. Sagat, and Boxer doesn't create as many bad match-ups. Some of the cast literally can't do anything against O. Sagat.

[I.M.X.]

1. AKUMA (GOUKI)
2. OLD SAGAT / DHALSIM
3. VEGA
4. BALROG
5. DEE JAY
6. OLD VEGA
7. GUILE
8. OLD DHALSIM
9. CHUN-LI
10. OLD CHUN-LI
11. RYU
12. SAGAT
13. OLD BALROG
14. OLD GUILE
15. EDMOND HONDA
16. OLD EDMOND HONDA
17. BLANKA
18. OLD RYU
19. MIKE BISON
20. OLD KEN
21. FEI-LONG
22. CAMMY / OLD CAMMY
23. OLD FEI-LONG
24. OLD MIKE BISON
25. OLD DEE JAY / KEN
26. OLD THUNDER HAWK
27. THUNDER HAWK
28. ZANGIEF
29. OLD ZANGIEF
30. OLD BLANKA

A mate of mines gave me this tier list ages ago, and it looks very accurate. Theres a chance the list may have changed in the last few years

[BKB]

For DJ being ranked so highly, it's not very often you see him in Jpn tourneys. I thought he was more represented in US play?

Are there any standout japanese DJ players?

[jaminbenjamin]

I wonder if it's time to lift the Akuma ban for Evo. I'm a little tired of seeing him high in rankings and no videos/results to back it up. Who's with me?

[unledded]

I wonder if it's time to lift the Akuma ban for Evo. I'm a little tired of seeing him high in rankings and no videos/results to back it up. Who's with me?

There's a reason why he's banned, it's because he's broken. If we were to lift the ban on Akuma, everyone would use him (if you want a fighting chance of winning).

[Kyokuji]

Whenever someone tries to say that Akuma isn't broken because he always loses in tourneys, they fail to mention the fact that the person playing him is almost always complete trash.
The guy is broke, plain and simple. To a point where it ruins the game. Granted, I feel the same way about O. Sagat, but at least you can do 'something' about tiger shots. Can't do shit against air fireballs with a lot of characters really, and god help you if you he gets you in the corner.

[C/J/F]

Old DeeJay is a horrible character. ST DeeJay will deal massive damage from a multiple blade kick juggle if you jump at him. O.DeeJay has a 2 pixel damage one hit antiair machine gun. It really sucks - just try using him and you'll just give up in disgust. His fireball also got a serious upgrade. It's bigger and faster. So he connects with more of them (due to their speed and size) and can actually zone you effectively and play like Guile with the threat of a very damaging blade kick.