Best Blackheart Ever [Archive]

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OmegaRed999

11-07-2006, 04:28 PM

Well Bh players are a dieing breed, but theres one particular Blackheart that is taken his abilities to the next level. Player name: Mikeheart, known here as SentinelCheese.
If u haven't seen any of his matches, click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZARJcfCiiQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TusLLLGUYcI
He is part of my new team in Michigan. Strategy + Cheese = Team Stratecheese,
members:
Flapp
Mikeheart

Enjoy.

N-Ken

11-07-2006, 05:33 PM

unknown user

11-07-2006, 09:03 PM

Well he knew what he was doin, but definitely overreacting by saying best blackheart.

Mixup

11-07-2006, 10:59 PM

rofl

not bad with his pokes, but damn man, give the guy sombody to play against:wasted:

Deus

11-07-2006, 11:19 PM

that shit is disgusting

Deathfist

11-08-2006, 09:13 AM

IMO, the best 2 BH players of all time are Samnang, Stiltman [hard for me to say which is better I think Stilt is but I don't care right now...], and third is probably Alex Valle. Stiltman uses a better team structure in BH-Sent-Capcom, than Samnang who uses Mags-BH-Cyc. These 2 players use completely different styles of play.

Samnanag uses Mags-Cyc, rom infinites, resets you, then launches you with BH, h[p/k] you down into the inferno, then does a tempest. You die. If you don't die, Magneto can attack more times, then airdash up with more hits and go Tempest Armageddon. At that height it acts more like a framecancell meaning it is still a combo, meaning he's just killed or done 95% damage to you. Also, if Magneto dies, BH can probably triple as many times as he wants and it will combo. There are all kinds of tag combos either way, and safe DHCs that allow for character order changes in this team.

Samnang won Canada's biggest fighting game championship twice with this team and finished 9th this year, so this is why I view him as one of the best Blackhearts of all time.

Now for Stiltman...

Stiltman has found a way to neutralize BH's biggest vulnerability; getting raped by Cable. I can say that, but only upto a certain point. He does it by rushing Cable down, chasing him into the corner, using Capcom to keep him there, and then destroying him off 2 levels with a DHC into Sentinel. Most players can't say that. Another thing is that most players with Blackheart totally suck, abuse, or misuse certain things in circumstances they shouldn't on a chronic persistent basis. What I see in Stiltman is a minimization of use. He doesen't do alot.

Stiltman finished top 25 at Evo 2 years ago, and has been consistently finishing real high with his BH teams for years in Seattle. Seattle used to be one of the biggest hot-spots in Marvel and spawned many national championship finalists like Jmar, Kuan, and Rowtron.

Let's compare Mikeheart's 2 matches to this...
It's obvious that on some levels his Blackheart knows what it's doing, but on other levels, it doesen't.

Match 1:
I won't give a full breakdown on the first match. He didn't want to start Cammy, and got raped partially because he did. He probably got flustered, taken out of his mindset, and just plain taken out. I can tell because the Doom/Cammy player was making all kinds of mistakes that are abnormal for a Doom to make after that point and Cammy on point was a non-factor. I heard a "What the hell" when he saw he had Cammy first. The good part though, is Mike has exceptional use of Blackheart's pokes. I haven't seen many Blackhearts that are anywhere near this good in this category. In fact, I've only seen 1 [I think it was a Montreal player. Either Samnang or Blackestheart...]

Match 2
This no offence was a comedy of errors. Using InfernoXXHOD is a very bad idea on Cable mid-screen. It's so difficult to superjump cancell Blackheart's ground dash you have to literally view it as impossible. Since I didn't see it superjump cancelled, and the cable had meter, you were literally asking to get shot for that one. Also, some Cables can AHVB BEFORE the HOD hits, and fry Cable AND Doom simultaniously. I personally have AHVB'd in the MIDDLE of HOD in the past by guardpushing in the air knowing full well that I can fry his ground dash afterwards. Don't ever do that again unless the Cable has no meter at all because that is very, VERY dangerous.

The only time EVER that this is recommended is if the Cable is sandwitched between the corner and Doom [kinda like when you have your worst enemy's mom sandwitched between you and your best friend]. Okay, on with the breakdown.

The Cable vs BH part was both really good [lots of trap escapes, nice demon punish vs Cable's handgun, superjumping hk timed so well it disrupted Cable's patterns, etc...] and really BAD [too many Inferno xx HOD, using attacking Doom with Cable just out of reach were he might AHVB your limbs,]. Even I learned some cool stuff watching it, so, I complement the BH player for that.

IF you had Capcom AA and used it in the combo instead of Cammy, both his Cable and his Doom would have died right there when they were bouncing. Fortunately for Cable that didn't occur. Fortunately for Blackheart, Cable didn't try to AHVB BH's limbs while he was hitting Doom as he flew back. [of course, seeing that Cable escaped, the BH could superjump cancell the mk and try to get over Cable...]

Also, when Cable was bouncing, you should have tagged in Sentinel, and did rocketpunch, HSF, Dash, launch, then Air combo. This means you can potentially have killed the character right there.

Opportunites like these aren't going to be passed up on for big damage by Dasrik, Stiltman, Alex Valle, etc... Now, since I mentioned these combos to you, these are the kind of things that would be easy for the best players in the world that are BH specialists to do.

Again, I say this. Your smart and excellent use of BH's pokes is virtually unrivalled. Mags was lucky to walk away from that alive. When he did the HOD, I bet he was actually planning to inferno XX HOD and the inferno failed to come out. Had that came out, he would have lost Magneto right there no matter what. He was moving forwards, so the odds of him eating it were much higher. Hand the inferno been dodged, the HOD would be under him, or under Blackheart and in either case, Magneto would have died to chip. He'd have to block the inferno, guardpush it, then airdash away from it [and Blackheart would probably attack him again, or waste more time [and with the command he has over the pokes, Magneto as well...]. Also, he should have guardpushed the tempest so that Magneto couldn't advance and regain the initiative while he was pinned in the corner at the very end.

Basically, I'll probably be using Video Downloader (http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php) to take one or both of the matches for myself, but since I'm sure this wasn't a tournament match, and I do not know what you've accomplished in a tournament with him, there's no way I can even come close to saying you have the world's best BH.

I will say this though. You're beginning to get somewhere with Blackheart. Keep going, and keep on playing him. Who knows, you might shock the world someday and win something big with Blackheart.

gouki10

11-08-2006, 04:16 PM

OH!!!!!!!! is this some kind of cheese

fucking bh should've been in CVS2, pokes FTW.

Sentinel_Cheese

11-11-2006, 07:19 PM

rising_player

11-11-2006, 07:51 PM

Well atleast I'm seeing something new.

The reason why I say new is because I never seen anyone pick blackheart before, except once while I was walking by the MVC2 machine while the guy was still on the character selection screen, but I didn't stay to watch him play backheart.

Anyways props to mikeheart for having a good blackheart, I'd like to see some more blackheart matches too.

Hope you keep improving blackheart :rofl:

Deus

11-11-2006, 11:25 PM

you never see anyone pick blackheart because he's a shitty character and an even shittier assist

and he's fuckin boring as shit to use

magneto, storm, sent and cable aren't just godlike because they can't be fucked with, they're also the most fun characters to use in the game

90% of the rest of the cast are extremely limited in what they can do

Jin Cena

11-11-2006, 11:59 PM

then this should only be a 4 character game not 56.....oh wait never mind. Marvel blows:wonder: :rofl:

Sentinel_Cheese

11-12-2006, 05:16 PM

thanks rising_player for your comments i hope ur getting better to in mvc2 i have been playing with blackheart for abotu 3 years now and i still want to get better and know i need to get better with him but thanks again for the comments and i will have more matches with him in the future so look out ight peace.

Deathfist

11-13-2006, 01:11 AM

im glad you guys or at least Deathfist liked my vids and yes i do have alot to work on and im working on it as we speak but i do need to play more cables and mags and sents i need the experience so thanks again and i have be working on the pokes for ever since the first time i played with blackheart. thanks Deathfist for the breakdown
I like Blackheart and believe he isn't as bad a character as everyone thinks. If you don't get the lead on him quick, he'll roast you alive in his most optimum teams, or you'll end up roasting yourself. His purpose is to be used to build meter so that you can land a nasty DHC, or tag combo in a rapist [Ironman, Cable, Sentinel, etc...]. One thing you can do to improve your Blackheart is to experiment with using the drones as your primary rush crusher. IF you're calling an AA, the Magneto can try to follow you into the corner, then counter-assist hitting you both. And you wind up getting double snapped and your assist dies. This is because your AA is often in the same area as BH is, or being knocked back into the same area. With Sentinel, that isn't usually the case. If you jump back, Magneto's ONLY option is to try to air throw you through the drones if you get predictable. If you tech hit it, Magneto is inside a drone, or the drone will STILL be in the way, AND you fly to the opposite side of the screen, AND you get your attack back [if you haven't used it already...,]. It's MUCH harder to land the snap through BH's demons, pokes, and drones than it is through an AA. In fact, it's virtually impossible.

you never see anyone pick blackheart because he's a shitty character and an even shittier assist

and he's fuckin boring as shit to use

magneto, storm, sent and cable aren't just godlike because they can't be fucked with, they're also the most fun characters to use in the game

90% of the rest of the cast are extremely limited in what they can do

Magneto can be beaten if the Magneto isn't careful. His speed is so high, and his combos are so sweet that he lends himself to the 2 worst traits a player can possibly have; Impatience, and carelessness. There is always a severe risk of him impaling himself on Cyclops, Psylocke, etc... Also, Rogue-Tron can do 70% damage in 1 combo with no super involved, and is very nasty. BTW, there is only 1 way to play Magneto. That's to land a hit and either combo or reset them to death. This is definitely the most entertaining and fun method to play the game, but that is not only the very definition of limited, but extremely risky as well. If you don't land the hit, you'll get chipped to death or trapped, and die. Having said that, Magneto is very fun to use [God I love the double-snap...].

Cable can be beaten. Spiral can beat him. It's been done. Rogue-Tron can beat him. Rogue-Doom can beat him. Morrigan backed by a good team can beat him. Even Dhalsim can beat Cable. I'm there are alot more characters than that. Cable isn't infallible. There is only 1 generally significant way to play Cable; Keep-away pretty much. Cable can't really force a hit, and must rely on his zoning, keepaway, etc... till a mistake occurs that he can incinerate. That is also extremely limited. I will admit this though. Alpha counter XX AHVB, and AHVBx# are possibly my 2 favorite things in MvC2.

The real problem is Sentinel, then Storm in terms of being broken. The reasons for this are so obvious by now I can't be bothered mentioning them. These 2 ARE NOT limited in any significant way. They can play nearly all the styles of play in the game for the most part decently. It is these 2 that you're really talking about Deus.

Oh, and BH doesn't suck, he just doesn't rule to the extent that say, a Sentinel, or a Storm, does. I've found a way to compensate somewhat for most if not all of his more serious vulnerabilities. Stiltman has fully, and Samnang has fully. Blackestheart has almost fully as well. If you actually take the time to adapt your BH to the times instead of say Fuckit, this character sucks, you'll realize that he is far better than you give him credit for. That almost hapenned to Cable, but the people in the Midwest and the Northwest made the adjustments necessary to save Cable from oblivion. Blackheart has at least 2 completely different styles of play he can utilize. Magneto? only 1. Cable? only 1 [unless you are me using Cable-Cyc, then it's 2]. The bottom line is, BH does not suck, YOU suck with Blackheart. I'm to tired right now to tell you what you should have known and learned 3 years ago for Blackheart. Just go through the "How to tell if your Blackheart sucks thread".

You may find Blackheart to be boring, but that's either the idea, or your lack of adaptability, or patience with him. You must find out which.

I think that it's more like 80% of the cast is too limited in what they can do, not 90%. It's still bad, but not as bad as you think. Almost, but not quite.

Sentinel_Cheese

11-13-2006, 07:26 PM

Deathfist thanks again for the tips and i am trying to do some thing with BH and Sent traps but i want to do traps with teams that are to routine if you know what i mean and yes i am thinking of new traps with BH he can almost lock down by himself with lk. that poke is like the greatest to me it comes out so fast and had som much reach but anyway if there is anything else post it please ok and i would be glad to give tips if you need some alright.

Deus

11-13-2006, 08:59 PM

thanks for all the tips deathfist, because of your knowledge, i think i will become a much better marvel player

Robust

11-13-2006, 09:13 PM

this guy really is the best blackheart in america. real talk.

Good vids. Use a better team. Nice zoning. Learn the infinite too =)

OmegaRed999

11-13-2006, 11:32 PM

One on One BH no assist if u play BH at the Ohio tournament, if anyones goin. Matter a fact u can use any character u want. I'm playin to OmegaRed or Guile. Money Match $10.00 Best out of 5.

Sentinel_Cheese

11-14-2006, 11:17 AM

thanks Robust im trying to get better with him i still need work alot of work from what the other good blackheart players are saying so i will be trying newstuff out and working on my other traps and i do know how to do the infinite i just dont do it really it doesnt take life that much be thanks again

CoosCoos

11-14-2006, 01:04 PM

I'm glad to see another BH player put up vids!!!

I can't really comment on them though, because Deathfist basically said everything that I was going to say. I will add this though....

Your pokes and zoning are amazing. However, seems that you don't quite see some openings too kill off characters as well, as well as putting yourself in positions where you yourself could get killed i/e the second match.

You caught Cable with so many hk demons, and every one of them he should have ate a lot of damage, or death early in that match.

If the Cable would have known that you could guard cancel easily out of the Inferno xx HOD, you would have lost that match even quicker. All someone has to do is to pushblock the inferno, and I know you know that.

Work on doing a bit more air combos and stuff as well, to put them in even more positions to be trapped and frustrated by your pokes/demons/assists. Check the "How to tell your Blackheart sucks" and "Blackheart Combo Threads" for ideas and strategies.

Right now as it stands, I don't know how much Stilt plays, but he is still the best Blackheart in America, then Deathfist, and then myself probably. I've placed top 5 in the two tournies I've entered(5th place in my very first tourney, and won one at a local college around here.)

I will say again though, I learned a lot about poking strats from just watching your usage of his pokes. Thanks for that.

And keep playing!

Deathfist

11-14-2006, 06:11 PM

The characters in MvC2 on the whole are divided into 2 categories on the whole [that is the ones that are good anyways. There is a third and a 4th category [ability to kill, and ability to inflict guard damage, but these are pretty much subservient to what is listed below on the whole...]

1]The characters that can leave too much stuff on the screen for you to have any hope of being able to deal with it...
-Cable, Doom, Spiral, BH, Ironman[lesser degree], Sentinel
2]The ones that can do the impossible and get around all your crap.
-Storm, Magneto, Sentinel, Rogue, Spiral, Blackheart.

In case you and everyone else for that matter didn't notice, Blackheart is in BOTH of these categories. A fact that players neglect when talking about Blackheart.

I remember a scene in one of the matches where you hit the Cable's Pscimitar recovery with a hk and didn't follow up. That was deliberately timed and not a fluke. I plan to steal that timing. My modification will be to do one of the following...
1]superjump upon landing and airdash over Doom as low as possible that will allow me to get to Cable, You superjumped and got past Doom after landing the hk, but you didn't airdash low to get past Doom and destroy Cable. You went into the high air and he recovered.
2]airdash after the hk comes out [before I land] so that I fly over Doom, and get to Cable even faster giving him even LESS time than the one above.
-A variation of this could be sliding hk to increase the range of my airdash. If it misses [unlikely] I'm going to be right beside him to kill him via tag out, or DHC long before he stops bouncing. If it hits, Cable still dies the same way.

CoosCoos, I live in Canada, so if it's second best BH in America I'd be disqualified. Everything I learned about beating Cable I learned by stealing it from Stiltman and the threads entitled..."How to tell if your Blackheart Sucks (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44304)", The Dasrik and Stiltman teach Blackheart thread [Dasrik foolishly deleted it because he made a really good Blackheart faq (http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade/file/marvel_vs_capcom_2_blackheart_c.txt) that absorbs much of the data in that thread...], and various other threads on Blackheart. Another thread that's good you may want to look through is the "Blackheart Combo Thread (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109285)". That and I've been playing Blackheart for 3-4 years [And Marvel vs Capcom 2 since 1999].

Among the Canadian Blackhearts, the best ones of all time, I might view mine as among them, but if I did, it would probably be near the mid to bottom of the top ten. Closer to the bottom to be safe. My accomplishments can't hang with the likes of the ones I'm mentioning here...
1]Samnang, [T-3 1st, T-5 1st, t-7 9th(this year)] numerous first place finishes in Montreal
2]Blackestheart, [numerous top 3-4 finishes in Montreal, placed well in T-5]
3]OrbitKid - I think. [The one that burried Ortiz at T-5 Canadian Fighting Game Championship in losers 2 straight and beat Ortiz once in the team tourney. I can beat his Blackheart though, and that makes it confusing for me to place myself...]
4]Dark Dragon [Steven] who uses Tons of characters and I've never beaten him even once with ANY team he's used [let alone Blackheart who I don't think I've fought of his, but I know it's good...] He was in a team tournament at T-7[this year] with Jiggabry and Isaac Graham [can't spell it]. His team finished second. This is despite Empire Arcadia NY having 2 teams in the tournament.

My accomplishments are finishing 4th in 3 tournaments, finishing 11th at T-5, and finishing no lower than 7th in most tournaments I participate in. Usually I place 5th. There are about 4 local Blackhearts that are in my league [that's alot, mostly because of my beasting on players, the need of others to adapt to him, seeing Samnang on occasion, seeing Blackestheart on occasion, etc...]

I use a cross between Tournament accomplishments with him, percentage of usage, and whether or not I can or think I can beat their Blackheart to determine where I place the best ones of all time.

What I am, is possibly the best Canadian Blackheart that is willing to talk about strategy and try to help people improve their Blackheart. Besides Blackestheart, I'm pretty much it. Then people will realize that Blackheart is rediculously strong. Even at that, I'm trying to learn and make my BH unbeatable [since it isn't. Then again, no character is...] Players that play me will find out that there are holes in my game that I need to fill.

Blackheart is my favorite character to use, so I make sure that I know as many different effective ways to play him. Most players can't say that, or severely restrict themselves by only knowing 1 way, or 1 team.

I'd be among the top 5 easily if I could use Sentinel or Magneto better. That's what I'm trying to do now of course [and should have put more effort into years ago...].

StiltMan

11-14-2006, 09:18 PM

That's, um...

No.

BH should not be coughing up half his life in killing Cammy. The BH/Guile stuff was amusing but nothing I haven't both seen and done before myself in goofing around. There are times when I think Guile is better for him than Cyclops.

But I was pretty much waiting for that Cable to shoot BH to death. There were probably at least five or six opportunities, and that was in ill-advised chipping efforts alone.

Way, way too much random demon throwing and way too many times where he was hitting the second roundhouse too quickly and floating down to the ground in that mode where he sticks in the last frame and basically can be killed by anything with a projectile. Cable could have gone up with him and shot him at almost any time, and left Magneto or Doom on the ground to make it difficult to go underneath when he did.

The bit about jumping over the standing gun and hitting him with j. rh was cute though, I'll admit that much.

N-Ken

11-14-2006, 09:45 PM

Sentinel_Cheese

11-14-2006, 10:02 PM

thanks again Deathfist and Cooscoos im really trying to get better with him and Stiltman i know im probably wack compaired to you but i am trying and just need to see alot of the stuff your talkign about and post in your threads to understand it im more of a see and then can do it person ya know. lol anyway im glad that you at least enjoyed the vids so do you think my poking methods are effective or not???? thanks again guys i really want to be up in the ranking with you guys one day peace.

Sentinel_Cheese

11-14-2006, 10:10 PM

when is the best time to throw out the second row of demons(hk.) after the airdash or what i get it confused.

Deathfist

11-14-2006, 10:51 PM

when is the best time to throw out the second row of demons(hk.) after the airdash or what i get it confused.What do you mean, please explain what situation you're talking about here. Using 2 waves of demons is situational, and something that I usually avoid... [too many times eating Hail, getting shot by sj HVB, getting followed up by Mags when I do it...]

It's usually a bad idea. Unless of course you've hit a Cable or some other character airbourne [or know you will] and are airdashing with a hk usually after it [sometimes during it but I don't like the hang time...] to hit them again while closing the distance to destroy them.

Often times I don't try to hit them with the second one if I think I can get to them while they're bouncing so that the damage scaling fails to come into play.

I will leave a copy of the Stiltman litmus with it's solutions here. What I want you to do is print this list off, memorize it, then play back your matches untill you see all your mistakes. Then, imagine yourself NOT making them anymore. You blew it on questions 1, 4, and 8. With the Cammy part, you blew it on 7. The mags part, you made up for it by almost killing him with your pokes solo.

Originally Posted by Deathfist
I decided to Unify the first 2 posts Stiltman made in “How To Tell If Your Blackheart Sucks (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44304)”. Due to the size of these 2 posts a disclaimer is warranted.

WARNING:MASSIVE POST ALERT

Litmus in Bold
Solutions in normal

Originally posted by StiltMan
This thread might get mistaken for a troll, but I think that in discussing what BH is really capable of any more, there are so many bad habits that BHs around the country have gotten into that I would tend to say that most of them suck. So here's a simple litmus test to determine whether or not your BH sucks.

1. Do you think sj. rh and inferno/HOD are BH's two main moves? (If you answer "yes" in whole or in part, your BH sucks.)

1. My main moves I use with BH are j. fierce (usually supplemented with Sent-Y), sj. jab, and his short both in the air and standing and crouching on the ground. The most common times I use sj. rh at all is after a sj. jab/strong counterattacking a rush char going over the top, or if I know the opposing char is in some way commited to staying below me (which actually is a superset of the first case). I only use inferno/HOD if I know it's going to hit or occasionally in endgame situations to chip. I never use it as a general chipping weapon unless I've got Doom behind BH and I've got an opponent pinned between the rocks and the corner wall.

2. Are you aware that BH's tail represents one of the quickest range pokes in the game? (If you answer "no", your BH sucks.)

2. Just so you know... BH's st. short (the tail) reaches just a little shy of half the screen away. Probably right around 40-45%. His cr. short is not much shorter. His air short is a little less reaching than his air jab, so the main reason I'll use the short is if I've got an opponent below me. But either way, BH's tail has sick, sick range for the amount of speed it has, better than basically any quick poke this side of Dhalsim and with a lot more damage potential from combos. You can literally block a launcher from most chars and retaliate with pokes into your AAA of choice into inferno/HOD, infinite, and/or DHC.

3. Do most characters usually survive your first solid hit with BH? (If you answer "yes", then your BH probably sucks... I know of at least two team schemes where BH should be killing people on the first solid hit, with only a very few exceptions. BH/Storm is arguably an exception that can get you out of jail here.)

3. If you are playing BH/Cable/Cyclops, anything that leads to a Cyclops hit (whether it's juggling someone who's jumped into demons, retaliating for a poke, them running into Cyclops cold, or whatever) should lead to an infinite which you then finish off by tagging in Cable on the bouncing character, and from there you shoot them the rest of the way to death. If you are playing BH/Sentinel/Commando, there are numerous ways to DHC HOD (with or without inferno) into HSF, most of which will be fatal in most practical cases. If you've got BH/Storm/something and set up an inferno/HOD there, you can DHC to hail as well... this won't kill anybody without a significant amount of extra damage additionally inflicted before or after it, but it's useful enough and simpler to execute than DHCs to HSF or infinites into Cable tags, so it can be forgiven.

4. Do you super jump to throw random demons a lot? (If you answer "yes", your BH sucks. The only matchup where this is really a good idea is against another BH.)

4. Don't do this unless you know your opponent can't either go under you or up with you or whatever. I don't even super jump for offense at all except on Sentinel or Cable, and even then I'm doing it in cases where I know they'll have a reason not to go up with me. About the only char I'll do any kind of half-random sj. rh on is another BH.

5. Do you have a serious application for air judgment day against top tier chars? (If you answer "no", your BH sucks.)

5. If you get over the top of either Cable or Sentinel doing their respective horizontal supers, probably on one of your assists, air judgment day is a lot more useful than it looks like. It's also very easy to DHC into hail, HSF, or whatever.

6. Do you play BH on a team where he's got a serious DHC to work with? (If you answer "no", your BH sucks unless it's because the team has Cable on it, in which case you get a "get out of jail free" card unless you answered "yes" to question 3.)

6. Serious DHCs here can be anything from BH/Sent-A inferno/HOD DHC plasma storm (Sentinel will have enough time to both assist and DHC, BH/IM-or-Cyclops/Sentinel inferno/HOD DHC proton cannon/MOB DHC HSF (either one of which works... pretty easy to do), BH/Storm/Sentinel st. rh/drones/HOD DHC hail (credit to Viscant for this one), BH/Sent with any third char st. rh/drones/HOD DHC HSF (variant on Viscant's combo, and yeah, the HSF does work if you time it so that Sentinel has enough time to get out on the assist and then come back in on the DHC) or whatever. If you can do the infinite into Cable tag off of BH/Cyclops (which fills a non-DHC condition of question 3) you needn't worry about this question.... BH still can kill and the means are different than a DHC. I don't really care for BH/Cable/Cyclops myself because I think BH has more use for a projectile assist than he does for Cable behind him for most matchups. It might help him against an opposing Cable some, but I think stuff like drones or rocks helps him against the rush more than a counter-AHVB will help him against another Cable

7. Does your BH get rushed down for giggles? (If you answer "yes", your BH sucks.)

7. With j. fierce, drones, and Commando around, BH should rarely, if ever, worry about getting rushed. With Cyclops instead of drones and Commando it's potentially hard to rush him down but I'd still prefer having Sentinel back there, especially since BH/Cable/Cyclops suffers the same snapback worries as Team Scrub does against Magneto, whereas BH/Sent/Commando doesn't. (read: free DHC) Getting your assist char snapped in with no safe way to get out so that he gets rushed down is just as bad as getting your BH rushed down for purposes of this question.

8. Do you know at least two or three different ways to do serious damage to Cable, without getting shot in retaliation? (If you answer "no", your BH sucks.)

8. Pick a DHC from the list in question #6, or the infinite into Cable tag into blow them the hell away... or don't tag Cable and just do the infinite, maybe reset it. If you don't want to DHC, take an assist that hits a char up to about chest level on BH and do judgment day. No inferno. I know for a fact that Sent-A sets this up fine. It's possible that Psylocke might. st. rh into Sent-Y into judgment day will also work without needing a DHC. There's also hitting into Cyclops and do a single sj. rh as though you were going to start the infinite, but instead airdash, land next to where Cable is bouncing by your head, and do inferno/armageddon. The non-DHC, non-infinite-into-tag combos all do about 50% damage anywhere on the screen (except for the st. rh/drones/JD one, which is more like 60-70%), and all of them are perfectly Cable-safe to hit people with.

There are a few other trade secrets here that I'm keeping close to the vest, but even this much is still a lot more BH knowledge than most people know. There are a lot more DHC possibilities out there (I haven't even given out the one that I use most often myself) and a few other things BH can do, some of which I know and I'm keeping secret and a number that I may not even have discovered yet myself.

Don't feel bad if you blew chunks on the test. It's my personal opinion that BH is considered so bad these days because nobody really knows any of this stuff... i.e. the BHs people are judging by are on the wrong side of most or all of these litmus test questions.

CoosCoos

11-15-2006, 09:39 AM

when is the best time to throw out the second row of demons(hk.) after the airdash or what i get it confused.

Almost never.

Search for Stiltman's vids on Youtube. Those will also help you I think.

Like the thing is, You really don't want to super jump and throw demons all the time, that's way too predictable. The only good times for it is if you KNOW that you can get them with that second set.

Normally when I super jump, which is not very often unless it is to combo or something, I usually empty jump, and see how they are going to react to me. When they flinch, I can act accordingly, as I have all the actions still left.

But you don't really want to be super jumping too too much. Normal jump offense is really great with BH, so try and use it a lot more.

Sentinel_Cheese

11-15-2006, 11:29 AM

ok i got it i see now but what do i type to search for the stiltman vids just his name or what????

StiltMan

11-19-2006, 02:12 PM

The poking part wasn't so bad, although the main thing I'm going to comment on is the second match. There was one instance where you had him in an air to air roundhouse where you didn't convert with Guile, but I'll forgive that one somewhat. Guile, Cammy, Commando, all these are AAAs that you should probably always hit those on. Guile is a good AAA against Doom and Sentinel, though, so I like the thinking outside the box there.

Against Cable... other than the j. rh counter to st. fierce (which I'll admit, I haven't seen done before, and if I ever get back into an arcade again I might use it if I ever actually see a Cable player in Cali again)... gah... You were basically benefiting tremendously from the fact that that was one of the worst Cables I've ever seen on video. Just for a few spot points...

There's one point where you did an inferno as a half trap with Sentinel assist on Cable when he had three meters. Don't... EVER... DO THAT! It's not even HARD to shoot both characters to death when you do that! The drones are going low, all he's got to do is a normal jump up for the first AHVB, and then he can pump his entire meter into both BH and Sentinel. In that situation, your lifebar for BH was low enough that you probably would've gotten BH killed outright and then Sentinel would've had to come in with maybe a third of his life, half if you were lucky and the guy doesn't know how to mash... so you'd have a maimed Sentinel/Cammy against Mag/Cable/Doom. Almost certainly game over.

Inferno/HOD chip on Cable with meter... very, very risky idea, especially when you don't have a second meter to DHC to Sentinel to save it if he just takes the hit. If you've got two meters, and they manage not to shoot you before they're blocking the HOD and/or you can keep them from shooting BH straight out by making them block something else, then it's somewhat okay, but I still probably wouldn't do it anyway.

The j. rh thing is cute, but I wouldn't get predictable about it, because you never know when a Cable player's going to start reading it and do a psimitar into AHVB to meet you with it. Probably not going to happen too often, yeah, because even a good Cable would probably not catch it too often just right, but it's still a possibility that would keep me from trying it too often. OTOH, it can potentially turn into something bigger if you do catch them with it, so until someone burns you for it it's still generally a good trick.

The flying rocket punch at point blank, low altitude right above Magneto was bad. A good Magneto would ROM you right on the spot there. A bad executing Magneto player might have done something like hyper grav/Doom/tempest, which is largely unmashable. Granted, I already know this was a terrible player you were up against, but that was just a really bad spot to put yourself in. This is part of the pitfall of playing against bad players, is you put yourself in bad position when you're up against someone who actually knows what they're doing.

The other main thing I can say in general is, don't be too quick to abandon the ground area against Magneto. The best way to defend against Magneto is to control the ground and the low altitudes and make him go over the top. His offensive options in this case are badly crippled because you know exactly where he's going to be coming from, which way you need to block, and push blocking him back out to square one is trivial. You may not win very fast, but you won't lose very fast that way either, and if you run him into drones/rocks and AAA while you're doing it, you'll whittle him down to size. The main mental thing here is not to get bored before the other guy does. (This is the worst mental mistake a BH player can make, is to get bored before the opponent does... if you get bored easily, don't play BH, because a good deal of his game is to bore people to death. :sweat: )

ducvader

11-19-2006, 02:21 PM

Imma pick up black heart - just because I feel black in my heart. Don't mess with this NIGGA!

Dasrik

11-24-2006, 03:08 AM

Wow, solo Blackheart. Reminds me of one fateful night at Viscant's house, eh Bill?

CoosCoos

11-24-2006, 11:09 AM

Imma pick up black heart - just because I feel black in my heart. Don't mess with this NIGGA!

DO IT!

CoosCoos

11-27-2006, 09:37 AM

For everyone's viewing pleasure:

ograndeblackbelis is cabelis on the vids, and he's playing BH/Cable?Capcom.

ninja sentinel

01-13-2007, 11:54 PM

Deathfist:
Who are you? I'm from Montreal and I have never heard about you before. Did you go to T7?

BTW, our second best BH player is John, not ArcadeKid. His team is bh\cable\cyc.

Anyways, no offense to anyone, but Samnang's BH is #1. There is a huge difference between his BH and the others. Too bad nobody recorded his matches at his prime, especially when he raped Jwong at NEC2

Deathfist

01-15-2007, 04:42 PM

Deathfist:
Who are you? I'm from Montreal and I have never heard about you before. Did you go to T7?

Yes. I attended T7. And I'm from the GTA, not Montreal. There are MANY reasons you haven't heard of me...
1]I tend to keep my mouth shut as far as the internet goes.
2]I never participate in any matchmaking threads. I don't even read them. Especially here on this site. I talk strategy and try to help people. That's it.
3]I occasionally check for when tourneys are, but not often. Chances are that a friend of mine [Ratio1Beatdown, Jiggabry, Gerjay, Lord Magnus, etc...] will tell me if there is a tourney anyways so I don't bother checking.
4]I avoid the topic of who is better with a certain character than someone else.
-I HATE flamewars, and this is almost as inflammatory a topic as anything else I can think of.
-I kind of got trapped into this one. More about this later...

BTW, our second best BH player is John, not ArcadeKid. His team is bh\cable\cyc.

I know. Blackestheart is John. I've seen him play. I also know who his team is. You probably misread my post.
Having said that, I might have confused Arcadekid with someone else. I'm very sure about that now. If the person who took out Ricky Ortiz at T-6 with BH can reveal himself, it is he I would consider 4th. For now, I'll give Orbitkid the credit.

Anyways, no offense to anyone, but Samnang's BH is #1. There is a huge difference between his BH and the others.

I view it as a tie between Mustache AKA Samnang and Stiltman. The ONLY reason for the tie however, is because I haven't seen them play against each other.

I would say that Samnang is better, but it's very, hard to say that. Stiltman and Samnang haven't played in my presence against each other, or in any tourney match against each other that has been recorded. Therefore the tie.

Evidence as follows for Samnang...

=9th place finish at T-7 IF he wasn't exhausted from not getting any sleep the night before, he probably would have finished top 3.
-Yes I was there BTW...].
=1st place finish at T-5 [Defeated Jiggabry in Finals.
-Singlehandedly prevented Tyranidman [Isaac Graham] from winning. [Sent him to losers, lost to Gerjay, Defeated Isaac Graham]
-Beat Jiggabry in 7 games first set, six games second set.
-I finished 11th at that toruney. Side note, there weren't as many players as at EVO.
=1st place at T-3[Josh Wong finished first in-between. Sam didn't come in the middle year].

The thing that casts so much doubt as to whether or not Samnang is the best BH of all time is the fact that Evo [World Fighting game championship] has many more players than the T-Series [which is Canada's National Championship] and that Stilt placed top 25. Placing that high among that many players is very respectable.

Too bad nobody recorded his matches at his prime, especially when he raped Jwong at NEC2
I know. That's without a doubt the biggest travesty caused by non-recording in the history of MvC2.

I heard after Justin lost, he bitched about the controllers, they redid the match, and Sam lost because Justin adapted.

Deathfist

01-16-2007, 04:58 AM

=On the topic of Flamewars:

I'm almost willing to bet money that this thread is going to eventually deviate into a flamewar. Many people on SRK cannot discuss differences of opinion on many topics without showing disrespect towards other players. Who's better with a character than someone else has historically been one of those topics.

Since strategy is being discussed on a character I like, I decided to participate as an exception. If this thread begins smelling anywhere closer to a flamewar than it is now, I'm gone. I'll find better threads to participate in.

I almost never flame someone now. The reason is because if you flame someone now and they come up with something useful to you later, they might not post it. That plus I hate being flamed myself. As such I tend to avoid treating others in a way I refuse to tolerate in person. Even over the internet.

There are some rare exceptions like this one from the Spiral Q & A - Ducvader Thread I will show you here. http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=3519366&postcount=86

Almost exclusively treating others in a manner you approve of is a life lesson you must all learn here. It It is also the basis for all law, not to mention all regimes that will stand the test of time. This single statement makes or breaks all nations. If you continue to allow your politicians to keep treating you in a manner you disapprove of, it will continue.

.................................................. .................................................. ..........................

=On people participating on SRK and/or reading my posts:

Your ability to read my posts [and the posts of ANY other SRK members for that matter] is a privilege. It is not a right, it is a privilege. It is a privilege you and other members can choose to not exercise, and even some members [the moderators] can take away.

I for example, can take away the privilege of others of seeing my posts by either deleting them, or simply shutting up and not posting them in the first place.

This is a true story here. I got so infuriated by people on SRK once, that I did a search for and wiped out at least 20 of my posts in one sitting. I simply started deleting posts on something else till I calmed down, and didn't post on SRK for 3-4 months. Juggerknott who was surprised by the disappearance of one of my posts made a comment about it...
__________________________________________________ _______________
Juggerknott:
-"What happened to your post? I was going to comment on it, but it disappeared?"

My Response:
-"I happened to that post. That's right, I deleted it along with a ton of past posts. I got sick of the people on SRK and decided to do a purge of my posts."
__________________________________________________ _______________
The only defenses against someone's aggressive deletion behavior are to quote the posts, copy them to your computer and or print them. This begs a new question though. Can you defend against the non-participation of others? What if everyone decides to shut up. My answer is I doubt it. I can't see how you can make me or anyone else on SRK do anything they don't want to do.

I'm a complete and utter asshole like that regarding the internet. I will NEVER participate in ANY matchmaking or tournament announcement thread again under ANY circumstances. Someone might try to piss me off, and that could trigger an act of cannibalism against all the posts I've made that I view of benefit.

I do not have to participate in any thread, or answer any question anyone here asks of me, or post if I don't want to. Neither does anyone else here. And I'm a vengeful enough bastard that I WILL actually go through the trouble of deleting past posts if angered enough.

Make no mistake. I have deleted past posts of mine before, I have decided to not post in the past when I knew it could be helpful.

I was kind enough to grace you all with my presence on SRK over the past 7-8 years, as most of you have been kind enough to grace me with yours on SRK. Depending on the circumstances, I am not above eradicating my presence almost entirely from this site [or any other site for that matter...]

ninja sentinel

01-16-2007, 08:51 PM

Yes. I attended T7. And I'm from the GTA, not Montreal. There are MANY reasons you haven't heard of me...
...
oh I see, next time say hi if we ever meet ... but it's gonna be hard since I'm not going back to Toronto anymore for personal reasons.

I know. Blackestheart is John. I've seen him play. I also know who his team is. You probably misread my post.
Having said that, I might have confused Arcadekid with someone else. I'm very sure about that now. If the person who took out Ricky Ortiz at T-6 with BH can reveal himself, it is he I would consider 4th. For now, I'll give Orbitkid the credit.
Arcadekid has never used BH before, it could be DarkDragon

I would say that Samnang is better, but it's very, hard to say that. Stiltman and Samnang haven't played in my presence against each other, or in any tourney match against each other that has been recorded. Therefore the tie.
I know it's hard to judge since they never played against each other and specially since they use different teams, but to me it's not even a question, Sam simply took BH to the nexter level

I know. That's without a doubt the biggest travesty caused by non-recording in the history of MvC2.
I heard after Justin lost, he bitched about the controllers, they redid the match, and Sam lost because Justin adapted.
Justin did adapt, but Sam lost the adrenaline that kept him going throughout the tournament. He could have easily placed top2, but after that incident, he wasn't motivated at all and ended up placing 7th.

StiltMan

01-17-2007, 01:55 AM

Well, if we're going to say best BH, I don't really need to get into an argument over the whole thing to be honest. Yes, I'm good enough that I've beaten the likes of Crizzle and given Chunksta a serious run for his money in the last half year when I was at my best, within a month or two of when both of them finished in the top eight at Evo West. OTOH, if you were to set in my real accomplishments, nothing either myself or anyone else has ever done really holds a candle to, say, Alex Valle, who's won national caliber tournaments with BH/Sent/Commando. Okay, it was five years ago, but it's still more than I've ever done. OTOH, I'm not sure Valle placed ahead of me in the Evo where I got top 25 either, which was all Sent-A/Cable/BH and Cable/BH/Commando on my part.

If I've contributed to the community and advanced BH's game, great. It's flattering to hear people say I'm the best BH in the world, and it's neat to contribute new ideas to the community and get props for it, but I don't need to be in a competition over who's the greatest one around.

Deathfist

01-17-2007, 10:49 AM

oh I see, next time say hi if we ever meet ... but it's gonna be hard since I'm not going back to Toronto anymore for personal reasons.

Okay, I will if I recognize you. I doubt I will as my memory sucks.
Arcadekid has never used BH before, it could be DarkDragon.
No, it wasn't Dark Dragon. Dark Dragon is a black dude that to my disgust didn't enter that tournament. He no longer likes MvC2 and is STILL insaine at it even now. It was an oriental who beasted Ricky Ortiz, so I'll credit Orbitkid with it because I think he uses BH, and think he's oriental.
I know it's hard to judge since they never played against each other and specially since they use different teams, but to me it's not even a question, Sam simply took BH to the nexter level
Makes sense.
Justin did adapt, but Sam lost the adrenaline that kept him going throughout the tournament. He could have easily placed top2, but after that incident, he wasn't motivated at all and ended up placing 7th.
This also makes sense. I remember a match I had where I was using Cable, BH, Cyc vs an MSP. After losing the first game and my Cable OCVing him the second using unconventional methods, I was about to absolutely crush him with BH. I had killed 1.5 characters, and only then he complained about the fact that I didn't start the same character that I beat him with last time. I shouldn't have indulged him and said too late. Instead, I decided to allow for a replay of the match. I lost the replayed third match for the same reason Samnang lost his.