T. Hawk Thread.

[skankin garbage]

I've really been getting into using T. Hawk. So, I decided to make a thread.

To kick off discussion: N. Hawk or O. Hawk? I'm really big on O. Hawk personally, because I don't find myself needing to use the super very often (if you get in on a person with Hawk, you're usually good to go), and the added perks of invincible DP plus having S. Strong and S. Roundhouse hit mid as opposed to high really augment his game. I hear that O. Hawk has better crossups, too - can anyone with Yoga Book Hyper look over the hitbox differences on the moves, or perhaps the damage, if there is a difference?

[Buttermaker]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=57330

[skankin garbage]

Oh, brother...my bad.

[tolkien]

normally i have a hard time doing this move but for some reason if i do a half circle motion then press punch and input the rest of the motion ending at up it almost always works

i dont have this problem with zangiefs throws.. just hawk

do other t.hawk players do this?

[Shin Touyokouzan]

dont worry we all have the same problem lol. THe timing is different because hawk does not have a whiff animation for his grab

[polarity]

dont worry we all have the same problem lol. THe timing is different because hawk does not have a whiff animation for his grab

Uh, that wouldn't make the timing different. It's tighter because Hawk has less jump startup frames.

[jedi]

Have a question about the standing 360 and the negative 360(or safe 360 with punch release)

With Gief I can't do this on command every time but, I do it a lot easier than T.Hawk. Now, I have read above that Hawk gets off the ground faster so you have to do it quicker. So for the standing 360 with Hawk is Forward-Down-Back-Up the best way to do it? The only way?

With the negative punch or release punch. Can I hold the punch button down as long as I want? Example: j.LP, hold LP, s.MK, 360 release LP? Thats just an example but I also am wondering if I can move around and use other attacks while still holding the same punch or does it have to be the same one I just ticked with.

Long Live the Hawk and thanks for the help above in this thread already :D

[skankin garbage]

Sure, if you're gonna do a standing 360, toward-down-back-up (or back-down-toward-up) is about the only way to do it. Most of the time, though, hawk players tend to tick off of C.Lp or C.Mp, and do a 360 such that they end in defensive crouch; this is because, since Hawk doesn't have a whiff animation, he'll just block if the opponent does anything else except get grabbed.

[zass]

This might be old news to people, but I talk about walk up SPDs here:

http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com/2007/07/five-easy-pieces.html

and button release ticking here

http://tea-hawk.blogspot.com/2007/06/release-spds.html

Julien

[r3ko]

I've been playing quite a bit of O.Hawk lately, and heres a little guide i put together for him. Some of this stuff may be wrong, so i am totally open to criticism and corrections. I just hope it helps someone get better with hawk. Low tier power.

Important Normals

c.lp - godly priority, will beat out alot of pokes and torpedo type moves (blanka ball, honda headbutt and even psycho crusher). And is the main normal he uses to tick into 360.

c.mp - very high priority long reaching crouch poke. Also good to tick into. Good move to punish pokes that c.lp can't reach, and is an excellent meaty.

c.mk - good long range low hitting poke

st.hk - hits mid so opponents can't duck it like regular Hawks. Very long range, good for punishing at range and stuffing fireball attempts

st.mp - another mid hitting move unlike regular Hawk. high priority and good for stuffing fireballs attempts closer than st.hk

j.lp - the highest priority jumping attack in the game, use it often, it will beat 99% of moves in the air. Great for jumping too and setting up ticks.

j.mk - crosses up to set up combos and ticks

j. d+hp - splash which crosses up everytime unlike regular hawks to set up ticks and combos. Also can be done fairly low to ground for a quick jump to catch your opponent off gaurd.

Specials

Hawk Dive - Great for punishing careless fireballs, just don't abuse it as most characters have a way of stopping on reaction. Any character with rapidfire standing jabs will beat it clean. And some characters can punish you they you block it. I mainly use it to close the grab from range after knockdowns.

Rising hawk? - His dragon punch move, has alot of priority (move than regular hawks) and is his best combo finisher. I doin't think i need to explain when and how to use a dragon punch.

Typhoon - His 360 attack. Doesn't have no where near the range as gief's 360, but i think it might do a tiny bit more damage. Regardless as long as you tick it right you'll land this 99% of the time. Ticks of so many moves, even just jumping straight in with an attack or no attack and pull it off. Its also quite useful if you can do walk in 360,

Throws

- his best regular throw is the HK one, the one where he elbows the opponent in the face, after you come out of it you can cross up with jumping mk or jumping d.hp and on some characters actually walk underneath them like balrog does with his throw and setup a nasty tick into 360. His other throws are good. MP toss is good for throwing the opponent into a corner, but i generally go for the HK one due to the free crossup or tick afterwards.

Timing 360s

- Anyone familar with Gief's 360 will instantly know hawk's 360 has a much different timing to it, due to quicker jumping frames (its easier for him to leave the ground during the 360 spin). The best way i know is that if you wait a split second after your tick move then quickly spin, the 360 is alot more consistent. Other method which works is to do a more slower spin after pressing for a tick. Either method works, just go with the one your more comfortable with.

Landing 360 - negative edge style

- Theres loads of ways of landing the 360, some drum the buttons, so to increase the chances instead of just pressing one button, others are good enough to get the one they want everytime. (each punch gives a different strength 360, generally its best to go for the HP since it gives most damage, but it also leaves you furtherest away from opponent afterwards, the LP version leaves you much closer and i reccomend it more if your mid screen, since your trying to force your opponent back into a corner)

-The best way is to negative edge it, so its safe from reversal attacks like dragonpunches. Basically you start from down-back, and press your tick attack like c.lp or c.mp. then spin the stick/pad untill you get back round to down-back (hold it) and releasing the button as get there, this will result in 1 of 2 things. You get the 360 if they fail to reverse, or you block since your holding back if they do get it. To negative edge a HP 360, or different strength from the move you tick with, just hold down that button and release that one instead of the tick move.

The Loop

- If you knock down your opponent and they are near or in the corner and you start "The Loop". This is the most advanced thing Hawk has and its his key to winning matches. Watch guys like Toutanki, K and Mayakon to get familar with it. Basically how it works is that you do a Safe Jumping LP*, into crouching LP ticked in a negative edge 360. Then keep doing it. As long as you do it right, the opponent has only 2 chances to escape, and even then your totally safe. The first chance is duriong the safe jumping LP, buit if you indeed do a safe you'll land in time and block the attack. The next chance is ticking the 360, which as long as negative edge it you'll be safe aswell.

*Safe Jumping LP - Its hard to explain, but you can basically land from a jumping LP in time that 99% of all reversal attacks will miss you. Only ones which will hit you are reversals with 0 frame delay. Only ones i can even think off the top of my head are Ken's HP dragon punch, Blanka Ball and maybe a couple of supers. Timing has to be very precise so i suggest you watch some matchvids to get the timing down.

What if the safe jumping LP hits the opponent? Then you should go for a combo instead, easiest one is jumping LP, standing LP/c.LP/MK, rising hawk. This will cause more damage, than blocked jumping lp, blocked c.lp in 360, but not as much if the moves aren't blocked. So why combo you ask? Its much more likely to dizzy and ita guarunteed if the first hit lands. Remember the opponent can still get out of the loop, but once a combo has started they will have to eat the damage. And if you do manage to dizzy them then you can just combo again, and 2 combos does alot of damage.

r3ko's Butchered loop (stolen from Bullet Proof)

- Heres an easier version of the loop, which can be done anywhere on the screen, but its easier to reverse, but you can still be totally safe as long as negative edge. When knocking your opponent down and they quite close, just walk up to them and do a meaty crouching MP tick into 360, and repeat. If you knock the opponent down further away, and you try and be cheeky with a meating crouching LK (must be at max range, any close and they will be up and much easier for them to reverse) tick in to 360. If your really far away and you knock them down, say after a MP throw or HP 360, then hawk dive in and do c.LPx2/c.MP meaty into 360. Very easy to reverse the last one, but its more a susprise than anything else.

Anti-air's

- Rising Hawk is great as anti-air but try not to get baited into whiffing it. As it has a long recovery and easily punished. If someone tries crossing you up you can hit him cleanly most of the time with a close standing MP. c.LP rapidfire works pretty well if the opponent press to attack in the air too early. Standing HK is not very reliable and is only good to catch people on their way up, rather than on their way down.

Dealing with Fireballs

- Be patient and take your time, but don't be afraid to try a jumping LP when you get the chance, its ok to receive a couple of dragon punches and other reversals, its lot more risky for them than it is for you, as if they mess up its a 360 time. When using the hawk dive try to anticipate fireballs so that you'll the hit the opponent before they recover and can dp or hit you. Hardest characters to do hawk dive on are O.sagat and Ryu as they recover very quickly after fireballs. Also if you mange to get close enough and you rising hawk straight through a fireball, works best on fast fireballs.

Combos

I know this is the part people have been waiting for, sorry to dissapoint but Hawk really only has a couple of practical combos.

- Jumping LP > LP/MK/c.LP > Rising Hawk
- Cross-up MK/d+HP > MK/MP > Rising Hawk
- Cross-up MK/d+HP > c.LPx2, LP > Rising Hawk (dizzies 90% of the time)

Can swap out rising hawk for a 360 for most of these, if the opponent blocks or you mess up and allow your opponent to block midway.

Thats about it, i hope this guide helps you on your hawk ownage. Please don't ask me about matchups. I haven't played hawk nearly enough. But against everyone just try and get and land those ticks. Just be wary about doing them against Honda, Blanka, Dhalsim. There regular throw ranges are longer than yours and nearly as long as your 360. And especially beware Geif as his 360 has a much longer range than yours.

[skankin garbage]

Good shit, zass and reko.

One thing I just wanted to mention about O. Hawk, is that I actually have had a lot of success using S.Hk as an anti-air, as long as they jump in from far away. Other than that, this Hawk stuff is pretty much where it's at. The only thing you get with N.Hawk is a super, which, by the time you have it, a normal 360 will probably kill them off. Since O.Hawk has virtually everything else going for him, I'm down with O.Hawk all day.

[UltraDavid]

A couple other things to note:

When you're waking up and the opponent is anywhere near you, you should do negative edge 360 just in case. There's no penalty if he's ungrabbable, but if he is, he gets grabbed.

Crouching fierce is a great way to beat crossups, Blanka balls, and air attacks from right on top of you. It also has way longer range at the end than you might think, and at the right range and timing it beats or trades with every other low move out there.

Crouching roundhouse basically rules the bottom of the screen. The move stays out for a long time, which is a drawback in the wrong range, but while it's out it'll beat or trade with just about anything, and if it trades you still win because you get a knockdown.

[jedi]

Thanks to work (*@#$%@#$^@) I had to miss EVO...

Anyone get decently far with Hawk? Just wanted to see who was repping him there and if anyone did well or had some nice victories.

[fatboy]

Zass & I played Some Hawk v Gief in some EVO casuals. He peaced me out several times.... It was a blast to play. Zass hit the corner/safe jump trap several times, once your in it, a strong sense of panic sets in...LOL

[Rikidozan]

Is there any use at all for his jumping d+strong Elbow? I cannot figure any use for this, except I saw K use O.Hawks j. d+strong repeatedly in a T.Hawk mirror match vs. Toutanki.....

[Mechanica]

I just read in the old T. Hawk thread that (O) Hawk's s.hk hits low?? :wtf: How is that even possible? He kicks them in the face.

[UltraDavid]

It's not that it hits low, it's that it hits opponent who are crouching. N Hawk's goes right over, so O Hawk's is way better.

[Rikidozan]

- O. Hawk
Keep in mind that both close and far standing RH will not hit crouching Blanka nor Cammy. Bison on the other hand can only get hit by close standing RH and not far, while he is crouching.

[ToyRobotTerror]

So i'm thinking of making o.hawk my second char. Can someone give me some basic strats, bnb and ticks?

[Rikidozan]

So i'm thinking of making o.hawk my second char. Can someone give me some basic strats, bnb and ticks?

You pretty much got all the needed information for O.Hawk in this thread.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=57330 - Look for Drunken Master's post in that thread, a great post.

If you're not down with the Negative Edge - read Teahawk blogspot, some posts above - it's a really good tutorial for being able to pull off consistent and totally safe SPD attempts.

[SuperStar]

even though T-Hawk is not 1 of my main I always love playing T-Hawk. In fact I think I like him more than any other SF characters especially when he has the Mexican Typhoon move & its super.
Back to the old days where I played SF in the 90's I've never seen anyone pick any of the old characters before. I don't think we even knew how to pick them.

How does O.Hawk better than N.Hawk?? Which moves make O.Hawk better??:confused:

btw I was & still am absolutely disgusted & shock to see the animated director make Ken win over T-Hawk in the SF animated movie (all char's speak Jap). What a disgrace.:annoy::annoy:

[FreshOJ]

even though T-Hawk is not 1 of my main I always love playing T-Hawk. In fact I think I like him more than any other SF characters especially when he has the Mexican Typhoon move & its super.
Back to the old days where I played SF in the 90's I've never seen anyone pick any of the old characters before. I don't think we even knew how to pick them.

How does O.Hawk better than N.Hawk?? Which moves make O.Hawk better??:confused:

btw I was & still am absolutely disgusted & shock to see the animated director make Ken win over T-Hawk in the SF animated movie (all char's speak Jap). What a disgrace.:annoy::annoy:

See post #10.

[Kuenai]

Does anyone have the information on the supposed invincibility on Tomohawks (Hawk upper/dragonpunch)? I'm getting really frustrated with the losses because my just-starting, mi-air, and peaked tomohawk loses to everything. The beginning of tomohawk even lost to Cammy's spiral arrow.

[UltraDavid]

N Hawk's uppercut has a very suspect hitbox. It's like, it's invincible in some areas at the start, basically in the front and front top, but it's not invincible at the very top or back, and while it's invincible at the bottom, it also doesn't really hit at the bottom anyway. This invincibility doesn't last very long, so by the time the move is midair it's basically just a regular move. O Hawk's uppercut is better in just about every way; it has more invincible areas, it hits in more areas, and its invincibility lasts longer.

[Exarkun]

Oh man Jaime!!!!

[BKB]

random, but..

try close s.mp aginst vega walldive and shoto air hurricanes!

In the right situations that thing is golden. :tup:

[Kuenai]

Oh man Jaime!!!!

You know me? I know you?


UltraDavid: Thanks for the feedback, it helped! I'm going with Gief more right now. I'm beasting with him against the players I was having trouble with Hawk against before... and playing gief is helping my execution and reaction time with Hawk, who still gives me the most satisfaction to win with, especially when I get those three jumping jabs into 360s in a row. Looks hella tight.

[Exarkun]

You know me? I know you?


No haha, the guy I was saying this towards was Skankin Garbage.

[Kuenai]

No haha, the guy I was saying this towards was Skankin Garbage.

:rofl: Using real names on an internet forum can be confusing.

[Tira]

Hi guys!nice to meet you all!:wink:

i m a T.Hawk player since Super Street Fighter II The New Challengers (SNES,Mega Drive)

i think im pretty good with Hawk!but my weak part is that i can't do every time his 720 super move!i think its too hard to do it especailly when you play against good players!

i have seen already Toutanki in videos on Youtube and i was glad because even if T.Hawk is a low tier character this guy can prove the opposite!

i think ill test my T.Hawk in GGPO!

first i want to thank you for all these informations about this character!:woot:

i m also Glad for his rising up in the new Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD remix!
i can't wait to see his dive safe on block!

[djfrijoles]

Hi guys!nice to meet you all!:wink:

i m a T.Hawk player since Super Street Fighter II The New Challengers (SNES,Mega Drive)

i think im pretty good with Hawk!but my weak part is that i can't do every time his 720 super move!i think its too hard to do it especailly when you play against good players!

i have seen already Toutanki in videos on Youtube and i was glad because even if T.Hawk is a low tier character this guy can prove the opposite!

i think ill test my T.Hawk in GGPO!

first i want to thank you for all these informations about this character!:woot:

i m also Glad for his rising up in the new Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD remix!
i can't wait to see his dive safe on block!



If you are around on GGPO I'll show you how to do it consistently. It's not that hard. The problem is getting the chance to try.

My main tick into his super is jump in short into super but it can also be done from a crouching jab. The later being a hellaofa lot harder but looks a lot more stylish. Especially if you do jump in jab, crouching jab, super. You can also do his elbow grab and walk under into two crouching jabs then super.

Jumpin short is by far the easiest way to do it in my opinion.

[Tira]

thanx for the info^^ i would like to add that i am a pad player only!ofcourse with stick 720 is by far more easy to do it!

i want to say also that jumping and then super move is the easiest part!

i want something more tricky....

i usually do it with MK (mid kick) and super!i think with this move T.Hawk earns some frames(?) i think! i dont know yet your street fighter "language" about moves!

i think with MK you get some time to do the 720 super!

[Kyokuji]

MK also gives them a year to reversal. Just buffer the first 360 while you hit c. LP.

[djfrijoles]

Can some one tell me if New Hawks jab DP has a grabable frame or two in it somewhere ?

[fatboy]

That is a intersting question...

T.Hawk doesn't leave the ground until Frame 16, and his total body invincibility lasts 9 frames in all of his DPs. Which would indicate, I believe he could be thrown in those 7 frames. (I could be wrong :sweat:)

<However>, his Jab DP has 9 frames of total invincibility and 10 frames of mid & low invinciblity (His head can be hit). I am not sure how that translates into whether or not he can be grabbed?

I guess if Ryu's jab dragon can get grabbed, so can Hawk.... :xeye:

[Kyokuji]

N. Hawk's DP reminds me of N. Sagat's. The invincibility on it is shit.

I can't really find a good reason to use N. Hawk anymore. Just going back and forth, there's a huge difference in my ability to DP people out of shit with O. Hawk. I have a feeling that's why he was raised so much higher on Gian's tier list -- because it's wayyy easier getting knockdowns with O. Hawk, and his normals out prioritize stuff left and right. N. Hawk's super isn't even all that great. By the time you get enough meter, it's usually overkill.

You can DP through fireballs a lot more consistently with O. Hawk as well, which means less time being somebody's zoning bitch.

[djfrijoles]

That is a intersting question...

T.Hawk doesn't leave the ground until Frame 16, and his total body invincibility lasts 9 frames in all of his DPs. Which would indicate, I believe he could be thrown in those 7 frames. (I could be wrong :sweat:)

<However>, his Jab DP has 9 frames of total invincibility and 10 frames of mid & low invinciblity (His head can be hit). I am not sure how that translates into whether or not he can be grabbed?

I guess if Ryu's jab dragon can get grabbed, so can Hawk.... :xeye:


I really belive he can be thrown in those last grounded frames. Only thing is because of the angle and size of Hawk's DP it's more of a rare occasion thing unlike Shoto's being command grabed outta their DP.

One way I think this could be cauptured for replay would be to knock down a charecter ( anyone because I believe it doesn't have to be a command grab either ) and have Hawk perform his DP meaty and to early for the first invincible frames to run there course befor they can hit the grounded opponent and mash on the grab input as the grounded charecter is getting up.

Fatboy, you up for testin this with me next time I catch you around ?


Kyokuji is right aboput the meter build but the loop is so much more stylish when you do the first two jumpins to 360 and the last one of the loop being the super.

[Rikidozan]

I've experienced CPU Claw grabbing me out of the start-up of Rising Hawk w/ Flying Barcelona Drop. Claw grabbed me just when I left the ground; a few pixels from the ground. Thought I'd beat his shit, but obviously I got school'd.

I was using O. Hawk

[Kyokuji]

Claw is a fucked up match-up. He gets up so quickly, it's hard to do the loop, and even if you time it right, he can just flip out.

[Rikidozan]

Please explain how this guy crosses-up Zangief with Condor Dive, I tried but I couldn't pull off jackshit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7XdSaRkBwk - Look at 4:07

[caliagent#3]

Please explain how this guy crosses-up Zangief with Condor Dive, I tried but I couldn't pull off jackshit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7XdSaRkBwk - Look at 4:07

it's not the condor dive. It's jumping d+fierce

[Rikidozan]

it's not the condor dive. It's jumping d+fierce

It's definitely _NOT_ j. d+fierce. He hits with an animation similar to the Condor Dive, look closely. (04:11)
If it was j. d+fierce his body would be horizontal
http://www.inhgroup.com/image/item/st2/errata06.gif

[UltraDavid]

Wow, I have no idea what's going on there. It looks like dive, but it doesn't knock down like dive does. And it sounds like jumping fierce (makes the fierce noise), but it sure doesn't look like it. Weird.

[caliagent#3]

It's definitely _NOT_ j. d+fierce. He hits with an animation similar to the Condor Dive, look closely. (04:11)
If it was j. d+fierce his body would be horizontal
http://www.inhgroup.com/image/item/st2/errata06.gif

I don't think it's the condor dive because he doesn't do the little pause he does before actually diving. Also this could be jump d+fierce, since they're playing a console version of ST the animation could of changed. I'm thinking this is the ps1 version, could be wrong though.

[ShinAkumax]

That is definitely diving hawk animation in that video.

However, it doesn't have startup like diving hawk, nor does it make the startup noise.

I'm guessing... beta j.d+fierce? I don't think it's the same game we're all playing.

[caliagent#3]

yea it's definitely not the arcade version. You can tell by the stages, music, and the fact that it's set on inf. time. So it's one of the many console versions released. Probably the ps1 or 3do versions.

[Master Bigode]

It's the 3DO version.

[Mizuki]

random, but..

try close s.mp aginst vega walldive and shoto air hurricanes!

In the right situations that thing is golden. :tup:

Close S.MP is very good against Vega Walldive, it's just that it's a proximity move it won't always work, having the risk of getting knocked down and possibly losing the match to walldives.


I can't really find a good reason to use N. Hawk anymore. Just going back and forth, there's a huge difference in my ability to DP people out of shit with O. Hawk. I have a feeling that's why he was raised so much higher on Gian's tier list -- because it's wayyy easier getting knockdowns with O. Hawk, and his normals out prioritize stuff left and right. N. Hawk's super isn't even all that great. By the time you get enough meter, it's usually overkill.

You can DP through fireballs a lot more consistently with O. Hawk as well, which means less time being somebody's zoning bitch.

When I first picked up ST last year and tried out Hawk/O.Hawk, I automatically knew that O.Hawk could NOT have been low tier. He just had so much more stuff going for him than Hawk. I told people how I thought about how O.Hawk had to be atleast A/B tier and months later Gian posts up a tier list, having O.Hawk up in the ranks. I just can't see why it took so long for people to find out how good O.Hawk was and post it up. Of course he still has a ton of shitty matchups, but once he gets in it's usually game. Oh wait, that's like almost all the characters in ST.

[gridman]

against vega walldives, best is to jump back jab. beats it EASY

also, people seem to not believe me: o.hawk vs chun, chun cant do ANYTHING against o.hawks splash. she can jump straight up lk to TRADE, but thats all ive seen. She can try and get lucky with an air throw (its honestly happened maybe twice out of all the chuns ive played and it seems random.) other than that, upkicks get stuffed, flipkick gets stuffed, all jumpins and normals get stuffed. I dunno what she can do but whenever I play against any chun, i just use o.hawks splash over and over. It sounds scrubby, but she really cannot do a thing against it.

[Rikidozan]

@gridman
Regarding that j.d+fierce vs. Chun-Li. Toutanki has used it in another video aswell, I could only find this one. The only way out for Chun seems to be a throw. I've used it a couple of times myself online, as O.Hawk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ27ZHvNWMg

[Kajoq]

Just as to not confuse anyone about his air d+FP... Thats definitely not the hitbox for it in that picture. I know he was using that pic more as an illustration, but the red hitbox extends a good way below the blue box and is a lot wider than that picture shows... At least according to the Yoga Book

[Kyokuji]

against vega walldives, best is to jump back jab. beats it EASY

also, people seem to not believe me: o.hawk vs chun, chun cant do ANYTHING against o.hawks splash. she can jump straight up lk to TRADE, but thats all ive seen. She can try and get lucky with an air throw (its honestly happened maybe twice out of all the chuns ive played and it seems random.) other than that, upkicks get stuffed, flipkick gets stuffed, all jumpins and normals get stuffed. I dunno what she can do but whenever I play against any chun, i just use o.hawks splash over and over. It sounds scrubby, but she really cannot do a thing against it.


Yeah, if you watch Toutanki play VS Chun', he just spams that shit over and over.

[gridman]

Alright good, im not crazy then. I knew she couldnt do shit against it, i just wanted to make sure.

Why do i have more trouble with guile then I do with honda, dictator, or fucking even vega?

[Eclipsing Binary]

I think I've seen Chun-Li use her close st. MK to stuff the splash. (Or maybe it was some other kick. It's the one where she kicks really high, so it looks like she's almost kneeing herself in the face.) Is this a possible solution to the splash spam, or is it too situational?

[Rikidozan]

Alright good, im not crazy then. I knew she couldnt do shit against it, i just wanted to make sure.

Why do i have more trouble with guile then I do with honda, dictator, or fucking even vega?

Guile just has the perfect set of moves and special moves to make it almost impossible. If you're facing a defensive Guile that doesn't throw out normals (except mandatory cr.forward), it's really hard unless you're a walk-up Typhoon wizard. Guile's cr.forward is such a pain in the ass, further getting a knockdown is almost impossible unless he sticks out something that you can hit with Rising Hawk.

[gridman]

Ive found against guile that using the 2nd hit of cr.rh with hawk is a good way to knock him down. Its just really an uphill battle because he can jab you out of hawk dive and keep booms to pressure you and anti air with (oddly enough) 2nd hit of cr.rh if he doesnt have a charge

[Rikidozan]

O.Hawk - Normal attacks.
st. Strong (far) will miss crouching: Blanka, Guile, Chun Li, Cammy and Dictator
st. Roundhouse (far) will miss crouching Blanka, Cammy and Dictator
st. Roundhouse (close) will miss crouching Blanka and Cammy.

Keep this in mind before you throw out these attacks, I've eaten some Flashkicks etc. thinking I could poke crouching Guile with st. Strong, where it just misses him cleanly.

[Rikidozan]

I just got my Yoga Book Hyper today, to my disappointment there isn't much information about O.Hawk. I always knew that N.Hawk's cr.strong has a stray hitbox, it's even portrayed in the Yoga Book Hyper, but I don't know if O.Hawk's cr. strong has the same problem? ;\~

----- UPDATE : Fortunately O.Hawk's cr. Strong doesn't have a stray hitbox like N.Hawk's.

YBH:
I just saw that O.Hawk's cr. forward has more range than N.Hawk's cr. forward, according to YBH. I tested it ingame and I'm pretty sure they have precisely the same range.

[Rikidozan]

Any other players always getting Strong version of Typhoon even though you press and hold Fierce first? I.e. cr. jab, strong, fierce, b, u/b, u, u/f, f, d/f, d, d/b release fierce and strong. I get the strong version 90% of the time and it irritates me, since it often means I need to do one more successful safe-jump. Would it be feasible just sticking to fierce alone?

[gridman]

Am I the only hawk player who does not have any problems playing vega, dictator, or o sagat? Vega wall dives are easily EASILY stuffed by jump back jab. If its on wakeup, reversal dp (o.hawk) and one knockdown and its almost always gg.

Dictator - Reversal 360 scissors and improper spaced crushers. Block crossups and you're golden. One knockdown is all you need in this matchup.

O.sagat - dunno. just never really had a problem. psychic dp's win this match.

edit: i dont neg edge 360s although i should learn to. I usually just drum all 3 which sometimes results into kara st.fierce 360.

[djfrijoles]

I swear sometimes that it feels like Hawks DP randomly gets stored. I'll bet it's happened to a couple of the hard core Hawks out there too. Not to many active Hawks but can I get a post or to if it's happened to any of you befor ?

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

I swear sometimes that it feels like Hawks DP randomly gets stored. I'll bet it's happened to a couple of the hard core Hawks out there too. Not to many active Hawks but can I get a post or to if it's happened to any of you befor ?

Yes and it always happens at the worst possible time.

[Rikidozan]

I'm beginning to use N.Hawk alot, not that he is that different from O.Hawk - but it's always nice being able to soften throws, especially vs. Chun and Dictator. I feel like N.Hawk's Rising Hawk is stored at times, especially when I want to do cr. short xx SUPER.

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

I'm beginning to use N.Hawk alot, not that he is that different from O.Hawk - but it's always nice being able to soften throws, especially vs. Chun and Dictator. I feel like N.Hawk's Rising Hawk is stored at times, especially when I want to do cr. short xx SUPER.

It happens to me all the time, I get a DP instead of the super but I think that is more me fucking up the 720.

Also, ive been noticing lately that if I go for a DP and it gets stuffed and knocks me down (say I did a fierce DP) then I go for a reversal jab DP sometimes I get a fierce DP instead, even though I didnt do the piano input for it. Has that happened to anyone before or have an explanation for it?

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

Bump.

Is it just me or is it easier to negative edge Hawks 720 then his 360?

[Rikidozan]

Bump.

Is it just me or is it easier to negative edge Hawks 720 then his 360?

It's just the opposite for me. I do negative edge 360s all day long, but doing j.jab xx 720 is something I can't execute consistently. It requires my deepest concentration and warm-up before I can do cr.short xx 720 or j.jab, cr. jab xx 720 and I can only negative edge it from left side ;___;

Lately I can't pull off 720s at all.... I need to ask Doctor Philth what I can do about it ;\~

[mad possum]

I think I've seen Chun-Li use her close st. MK to stuff the splash. (Or maybe it was some other kick. It's the one where she kicks really high, so it looks like she's almost kneeing herself in the face.) Is this a possible solution to the splash spam, or is it too situational?



I always use O.Chun against O.Hawk (and usually N.Hawk). O.Chun's SBK will beat and/or trade with O.Hawks splash when timed right. I usually use O.Chun against 'Geif for the same reason.

[Rikidozan]

Am I the only one frustrated over "Falcon Beak" ~ b or f+jab? I never use it unless it's an accident (luckily it happens rarely), I feel Hawk would have an easier time walking in jab xx negative edge typhoon without having to risk striking the air w/ "Falcon Beak".

[MasterFiends]

try doing it this way, either way works depending on how you like doing your negative edge SPD's after ticks:

1) walk in f + jab or short (hold the tick button along with MP,HP), see if it gets blocked (wait split second) then go for the tick SPD by doing it from defensive crouch and release all buttons in piano style.

2) walk in f + jab or short (hold the tick button along with MP,HP), see if it gets block (wait split second) then go from f,d/f,d,d/b,b,up/b and release all 3 buttons at UP, to keep Hawk grounded and get the tick SPD.

Problem with method 2 is your not left safe if they reverse it, as your not in block.

Although i use something similar to method 2 for the walk in SPD without any pokes which is start from forward then go counter clockwise to UP but keep Hawk grounded with drumming all 3 punch buttons to get it out. But in this situation I do the walk in SPD if they whiff a move like DP and have to use press-press method instead of press-release the punches.

[Rikidozan]

snip

Thanks for the clarification, but I've been playing Hawk for a pretty long time. Doing safe negative edges is not of my concern (Only 720 negative edge), I'd rather debate/discuss the use of "Falcon Beak" or the lack thereof with other Hawk players. I hate the fact that walk-in tick xx Typhoons has to be done f~N~jab xx Typhoon, if only Falcon Beak was b or f + fierce ;\~

There's no reason to use the second method you mentioned, _always_ take advantage of Hawk's lack of a SPD whiff-animation.

The method you mentioned is a pretty good bet, I do st. jab or st. short to buffer then press and hold strong and fierce walk-in f, d/f, d, d/b, b, u/b, u release strong~fierce.
The Japanese Hawk players don't use negative edge walk-in from what I've seen, Inomata just walks in and SPD's w/ fierce, you can see a few pixels of animation of Hawk's close st.fierce cancelled into SPD.

[Rikidozan]

Regarding setting up N.Hawk's SUPER.
Some time ago, the only possibility for me to setup his SUPER was j.jab xx SUPER. However I recently got accustomed to the timing of d/b + jab, b, u/b, u, u/f, f, d/f, d, d/b + jab, press strong and fierce b, u/b, u, u/f, f, d/f, d, d/b release fierce, strong. I got trouble combo'ing 2 x cr. jab xx SUPER after cross-up forward. I can only combo st. forward after the cross-up consistently but xx SUPER afterwards is killing me ;\~

Any of you guys got any tips concerning j.jab, d/b, b, u/b, u, u/f, f, d/f, d, d/b + jab, press strong and fierce b, u/b, u, u/f, f, d/f, d, d/b release fierce, strong ? I can't get the j.jab and cr. jab to combo, maybe 1 out of 10.....

[Rikidozan]

Even though HD Remix is out, I'm not into R.Hawk at all. Still playing ST.
Why did they decide to nerf N.Hawk that much? I'm really curious, is O.Hawk really that beastly? Yeah I've compared them in training mode and O.Hawk is N.Hawk on steroids, but does it really justify removing all that goodness when he departed from Super to ST? I thought it was a little too rough.....

Your thoughts?

[MasterFiends]

Hey Rikidozan,

wow your using an incredibly difficult way of performing his super from a tick, no wonder you're not getting it consistently.

Try doing it this way (blending into super method), which i found gets me very consistent results:

1) cr.jab or cr.short xx super:

you knockdown opponent in corner and have super, walk-in then immediately move joystick in down position then begin rotating to d/b motion, then press jab (hold), then shortly after press strong and fierce (hold buttons). Whip that joystick around for a complete 720 or little more ending at d/b then release all punch buttons.

You should see much more consistent results this way, not only that you can use this method to tag cr.jab xx super after a safe jump jab.

side note: if you want to be slightly daring but want even more consistency, do a 540 super ending at up then release punches/quickly drum punches. Not negative edge safe but you'll get that super 99%, plus it is one of the most high priority supers so you'll most likely land it.

2)safe j.jab xx super (this is wonderful):

begin at u/f motion in air and rotate joystick to d/b press jab (hold), then shortly after press strong and fierce (hold). You'll be doing the 540 deg super as you want to end at d/b release all punches, since you started at u/f (remember you blended the j.jab into super) otherwise 720 ends at u/f again.

What you'll see happen is hawk crouch when landing, then stand up and begin the super.

Thats basically what i do, i love the safe j.jab xx super since its the easiest to do, very powerful and fast. :woot:

[Rikidozan]

snip

Thanks dude. However each to his own. I'd rather do a complete 360 then d/b and do another 360 ending in d/b + release fierce~strong. I can't do tick xx 720 consistently, so I'd rather buffer in the first 360.

Method 2)
Safe-jump j.jab xx negative edge SUPER is a must to know as a N.Hawk player.
The problem I wrote about is combo'ing j.jab -> cr.jab while buffering in the SUPER.

[MasterFiends]

Even though HD Remix is out, I'm not into R.Hawk at all. Still playing ST.
Why did they decide to nerf N.Hawk that much? I'm really curious, is O.Hawk really that beastly? Yeah I've compared them in training mode and O.Hawk is N.Hawk on steroids, but does it really justify removing all that goodness when he departed from Super to ST? I thought it was a little too rough.....

Your thoughts?

Off the top of my head if he was allowed to keep O.Hawk's st.MP, st.RH, body splash, cr.LP, LP, better DP, cr.MK and cr.RH while retaining N.Hawk's ability to tech throw and super. Then he would automatically for me be in the upper tier list with Ryu, Chun and Deejay, top tier belonging to O.Sagat, Dhalsim, Boxer and Claw.

However adding the very abuseable throw loops and the above properties he would seriously be a very nasty character to contend with, which is why i think N.Hawk is somewhat justified.

Remixed Hawk is retarded, ST hawk players put in all this hard work and now bums can walk in Typhoon, stand super and hawk dive with less thinking.

Honestly whenever I play Remixed Hawk I feel my real Hawk skills getting shitter, plus I hate the whiff animation on the Typhoon, i feel it happens at random times when I should have guaranteed throw.

HD remix doesn't come close to classic super turbo.

[Sanjuro_The_Ronin]

Off the top of my head if he was allowed to keep O.Hawk's st.MP, st.RH, body splash, cr.LP, LP, better DP, cr.MK and cr.RH while retaining N.Hawk's ability to tech throw and super. Then he would automatically for me be in the upper tier list with Ryu, Chun and Deejay, top tier belonging to O.Sagat, Dhalsim, Boxer and Claw.

However adding the very abuseable throw loops and the above properties he would seriously be a very nasty character to contend with, which is why i think N.Hawk is somewhat justified.

Remixed Hawk is retarded, ST hawk players put in all this hard work and now bums can walk in Typhoon, stand super and hawk dive with less thinking.

Honestly whenever I play Remixed Hawk I feel my real Hawk skills getting shitter, plus I hate the whiff animation on the Typhoon, i feel it happens at random times when I should have guaranteed throw.

HD remix doesn't come close to classic super turbo.

Its because Sirlin never actually played a really good Hawk player (aka any japanese Hawk player). All he has is theories about Hawk, hence why HDR Hawk is the way he is.

[UltraDavid]

ST hawk players put in all this hard work and now bums can walk in Typhoon, stand super and hawk diveOooo, well la dee da, Mr. Fancypants. Let those bums eat cake, am I right?

[Rikidozan]

Thanks for the replies guys. My question is only concerning ST not HD Remix. The question still stands if Hawk's transition from Super to ST really needed all that nerfing, he is highest tier of the bottom tiers, I'll agree on that.

[gridman]

Its because Sirlin never actually played a really good Hawk player (aka any japanese Hawk player). All he has is theories about Hawk, hence why HDR Hawk is the way he is.

Most likely this. Good points to whoever you quoted (multiquote never works for me..)

[JigglyNorris]

I mained Hawk in ST, and I personally enjoy him a lot more in HD.

[Rikidozan]

How come Zangief is ranked higher than T.Hawk is, tier-wise? I don't understand why they rank Zangief higher than T.Hawk, any ideas?

[jedi]

How come Zangief is ranked higher than T.Hawk is, tier-wise? I don't understand why they rank Zangief higher than T.Hawk, any ideas?

Grab range, mix-ups are generally safer, pokes are outstanding, lariat, running grab, green hand, he can grab from a crouching position. All of this also making it easier for him to get in. He all around doesn't have as many really poor match-ups like Hawk does but massacres the same characters as Hawk in ST.

Also if you don't get in with Gief, he has other things( cr.rh poke that hurts and has great priority) that he can use to win a match.

There's more to this from a character specific standpoint also, but I'm not gonna type all of that out right now :tup:

[Mizuki]

First of all, are we talking N.Hawk, or O.Hawk. I believe N.Hawk is really low in ST tiers, while O.Hawk is Btier. If were talking about N.Hawk then this is why.

Gief has moves that can help him move on the ground and not get Anti-Aired every attempt you make jumping in. He has moves that can absorb FBs, advance and go into 360. He just has better normals too.

I do believe that O.Hawk is better than Gief just due to his normals being a lot more better, and better 360 range.

And am I the only person in the world who thinks he got worse in STHD? (From O.Hawk)

[Rikidozan]

I do believe that O.Hawk is better than Gief just due to his normals being a lot more better, and better 360 range.

And am I the only person in the world who thinks he got worse in STHD? (From O.Hawk)

I'm pretty sure O.Hawk and N.Hawk has the exact same Typhoon range.

Most serious Hawk players are aware of R.Hawk's inferiority, due to his new whiff animation and his Condor Dive doesn't knockdown which means the Guile match-up is rather silly.

[Mizuki]

I'm pretty sure O.Hawk and N.Hawk has the exact same Typhoon range.

Most serious Hawk players are aware of R.Hawk's inferiority, due to his new whiff animation and his Condor Dive doesn't knockdown which means the Guile match-up is rather silly.

Sorry, I totally forgot about this thread, hopefully you read this.

O.Hawk has like 3-4 pixel more range on jab typhoon iirc, but I know there's a difference (Please, if someone knows the exact amount please share!)

Also, with N.Hawk a silly gimmick I've been messing with is whiff st.mp (anti air version, where you're too close to do the thrust poke, but too far for the AA version to hit) into 720. Also works for O.Hawk into 360, it's effective on GGPO, but can't say much for offline.

[Rikidozan]

snip

O.Hawk having better Jab Typhoon range is all new to me, on T.Akiba's page he doesn't differentiate between O. and N.Hawk, either they've got the same range or he messed up.

St.Strong whiff into SUPER is something I've mostly gotten off accidently, it's pretty neat if one can find a real use for it, instead of random shenanigans.

I still love ST, so I always check if something happened in the OG ST thread before anything else.

[Spirited_Away]

O.Hawk and N.Hawk have the same range on jab typhoon, only the hit boxes are different with their normals/Special moves.

The only reason to explain Capcom changing Hawk from SSF2 to ST, is the popular Gamest magazine T.Hawk is #1 in SSF2 joke that many people took seriously !

But I think the changes were because the super did huge damage.

[Rikidozan]

I'm kinda curious about the SSF2 tier list.
I can't imagine Hawk being the lowest tier in that game.

[Spirited_Away]

I don't think people played SSF2 long enough to know the game better and know tiers, going from HF to SSF2 was a major step back it was SLOW.

6 months later Super Turbo was out in Japan, and everybody forgot about SSF2.

The only clear thing about SSF2 is that Sagat and Guile dominated the game, by today's knowledge of game play mechanics and strategy I personally think T.Hawk is somewhere middle tier in SSF2.

[Mizuki]

O.Hawk and N.Hawk have the same range on jab typhoon, only the hit boxes are different with their normals/Special moves.

The only reason to explain Capcom changing Hawk from SSF2 to ST, is the popular Gamest magazine T.Hawk is #1 in SSF2 joke that many people took seriously !

But I think the changes were because the super did huge damage.

Do you have proof? Because whenever I go back and forth with Ohawk and Nhawk I can't do the same ticks with Nhawk the same range with Ohawk, unless hit boxes have something to do with that.

[Mizuki]

Okay, I've been messing around with some T.Hawk stuff lately. On shotos (only chars I've tested this on, I'm sure you can do this on more) you can set up a very ambiguous crossup with jumping down mp. If you space it correctly, you can have it where it looks like it hits the top of their head, but on the pixel-tight difference with spacing you can land on either side. Even if you don' know where you'll land, 360 motion doesn't change either direction so it still benefits you! I haven't tested with N.Hawk with this crossup. The Best setup for this cross up is off of a 2nd hit sweep, or a dp. I still need to test more.

[JigglyNorris]

Grab range, mix-ups are generally safer, pokes are outstanding, lariat, running grab, green hand, he can grab from a crouching position. All of this also making it easier for him to get in. He all around doesn't have as many really poor match-ups like Hawk does but massacres the same characters as Hawk in ST.

Also if you don't get in with Gief, he has other things( cr.rh poke that hurts and has great priority) that he can use to win a match.

There's more to this from a character specific standpoint also, but I'm not gonna type all of that out right now :tup:

I'd say Gief and N.Hawk are pretty even in what they can do, its more about preference. Anyone ever see that video where Lieut Dan's N.Hawk was wailing on Jodim's Gief?

[kevgeez]

T-Hawkboys,

Just picked up O. Hawk.
It is ridiculously frustrating trying to 360.
I go to practice mode and try, yet i'm still at a 25% completion rate.
My jump in then jab, low jab, 360 % is prolly 5%. This is prolly why so many give up on Hawk....

Granted, i am on a PS2 Chun-Li fightpad. Its like holding a can of Ravioli.
That shouldn't matter though right?

I'm gonna go crazy.
How much practice did it take you to be proficient with Hawk?

I'm no newbie either. Most of you see me on GGPO everynight.

[VirtuaFighterFour]

Just picked up O. Hawk.
It is ridiculously frustrating trying to 360.
I go to practice mode and try, yet i'm still at a 25% completion rate.
My jump in then jab, low jab, 360 % is prolly 5%. This is prolly why so many give up on Hawk....
You just need to be quick. Try standing jab or just jumping jab into command throw and then start doing two and three hit ticks into throw once you get the hang of that. With T.Hawk you need to tick, then delay a slight bit, perform the joystick rotation, then hit or release any punch on the first frame that your opponent comes out of hit or block stun. It sounds much harder than it is.

This is ST so you can't expect to be proficient in any character after playing for a few days. If you were to just pick up Dictator do you think you'd be able to land J.Rh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Rh with more than 5% consistency?

T.Hawk's command throw has one active grab frame, it works like a normal throw, so the timing from a tick is that you cannot perform the command throw early like Zangief and then let your opponent come out of stun. You must throw only after your opponent has recovered from stun.

What do your failed command throw look attempts like? Is nothing coming out? Is a normal attack coming out? Are you jumping? What are your exact commands that you are inputting?

[FreshOJ]

T-Hawkboys,

Just picked up O. Hawk.
It is ridiculously frustrating trying to 360.
I go to practice mode and try, yet i'm still at a 25% completion rate.
My jump in then jab, low jab, 360 % is prolly 5%. This is prolly why so many give up on Hawk....

Granted, i am on a PS2 Chun-Li fightpad. Its like holding a can of Ravioli.
That shouldn't matter though right?

I'm gonna go crazy.
How much practice did it take you to be proficient with Hawk?

I'm no newbie either. Most of you see me on GGPO everynight.

Do like I did on SSF2 for SNES. Practice doing 360s with Zangief first. I generally roll the pad either :l:,:db:,:d:,:df:,:r:,:uf:,:u: or :r:,:df:,:d:,:db:,:l:,:ub:,:u:. Once you get those motions down for Zangief, switching to Hawk shouldn't be a problem. I can't say that I ever had a problem between the two, myself, so I know it's definitely all about practice.

[jpj1983]

with hawk, don't you have to input the 270 motion in 3 frames for it to come out? i wouldn't fancy that on a pad

[kevgeez]

You just need to be quick. Try standing jab or just jumping jab into command throw and then start doing two and three hit ticks into throw once you get the hang of that. With T.Hawk you need to tick, then delay a slight bit, perform the joystick rotation, then hit or release any punch on the first frame that your opponent comes out of hit or block stun. It sounds much harder than it is.

This is ST so you can't expect to be proficient in any character after playing for a few days. If you were to just pick up Dictator do you think you'd be able to land J.Rh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Sh, S.Rh with more than 5% consistency?

T.Hawk's command throw has one active grab frame, it works like a normal throw, so the timing from a tick is that you cannot perform the command throw early like Zangief and then let your opponent come out of stun. You must throw only after your opponent has recovered from stun.

What do your failed command throw look attempts like? Is nothing coming out? Is a normal attack coming out? Are you jumping? What are your exact commands that you are inputting?

It looks like i'm just jumping up away from them with fierce(pianoing is hard on pad)

[VirtuaFighterFour]

It looks like i'm just jumping up away from them with fierce(pianoing is hard on pad)
Try starting your inputs in an upward direction and ending them in either a sideways or downward direction. This way if you are late with your joystick command you'll at least be grounded if you fail to the command throw attempt.

With Hawk, if I know my opponent cannot reverse (such as a standing Guile or Dictator without Super meter), I usually do 270 and end the motion in the forward direction and press and release all three buttons for a total of six chances. Against an opponent who has a potential for a reversal I end my motion in downback and only release the three punch buttons for option select. You should dig through the T.Hawk wiki (http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/T._Hawk_(ST)#Command_Normals) and see if you have any questions after that. Sirlin's excellent tutoria (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8dD3K2_Pz4&#t=3m15s)l from CCC covers T.Hawk's negative edge option select quite nicely.

Another way to get used to throwing with Hawk is to just jump at your opponent in training mode and buffer the command from the air and throw as you land. Just empty jump at your opponent and spin the joystick in the air and then press and release the punch buttons once you land next to your opponent. Get the hang of that and then move on to one hit ticks and then move on to two or three hit tick throws.
with hawk, don't you have to input the 270 motion in 3 frames for it to come out? i wouldn't fancy that on a pad
No. This is a common misconception with Hawk. Both N.Hawk and O.Hawk have a three frame jump animation before they are registered as off the ground by the game engine. So if you are doing a command throw from a standing neutral position, meaning you do not tick or jump into the command throw, you would walk up to your opponent and spin the joystick from forward to up in a 270 motion. So forward, to down, to back, to up, in a clockwise fashion.

From the time you hit up on the joystick you have three frames to input or release a punch button to get a command throw off. If you are within range and quick enough and your opponent is in a throwable state then you will throw them. If you are out of range, too slow, or your opponent for some reason is in an unthrowable state, you'll vertical jump into the air. And if you just released the buttons you'll empty jump straight up, if you pressed the buttons you'll get a punch of varying strength in the air depending on what punch you hit at the time of the jump.

During a tick throw you have a larger window to input the command throw and you don't need to worry about jumping all over the place.