Do basics win?

[Mixah]

Ok, so this might seem like an obvious question... BUT... I've seen plenty of times where a player is in a bad situation, (eg. an Akuma player vs. a Makoto, or a ST Gief vs. ST Dhalsim, etc), and they make a win...

Now, counting luck out of the equation, what is more important to help a player win in a situation like this? I play Akuma, so when I play a Makoto player, I make sure that I play my A Game, whereas if I play against a Hugo, I'm a bit more relaxed. Does it come down to, which player has the basics down (eg. parry, blocking, dashing, footsies, hi-lo mixups, etc), or do you think there's something else to it?

Basically, my question ends up being...

Are mastery of the basics what seperates a decent player from a good player? I've noticed that most decent marvel players can't do shit with low tiers, because they can't block, but if you get somebody like Sanford or Yipes, and they run low tiers, they're amazing, because they can still block, and they understand team dynamics, and how assists work.

[The Chief]

They can in my opinion.

The Basics is what every player has when doing anything competeive. Mastering Basics can be advantageous even during the highest level of play. Players with the most solid understanding for the basics can usually survive against the most advance skill levels and tactics.

I guess another question would be where to draw the line between what is basic and what is advanced.

[Mixah]

As far as "basics" go, I think that anything in the instruction manual (exaggeration) would be basic. There are advanced blocking techniques and such, but for the most part, blocking is part of the basics of the game, whereas avoiding and dodging are more advanced, since you must read your opponent on a completely different level to avoid all attacks they can possibly do. Knowing that Akuma's s.hp is probably his longest reaching attack, and blocking high at a certain distance because you know that's all he can do that you can't telegraph isn't as advanced as knowing exactly how far to stay away that you can counter poke that s.hp.

Parrying for the most part, I think is basic, wheras red-parrying and such is advanced. Just because Daigo parried all of Chun's SA2, doesn't mean that he didn't use a fundamental aspect of the game. Knowing to jump and how to take off the exact amount of life that Chun had left is the advanced part of that. I don't think that match would have been nearly as spectacular if Daigo didn't come back with the 50% comeback. I think as an overall, the basics come in with any attack that you can do without having to think about it, where an advance tactic takes much more analysis, and quick analysis I might add.

Finding the line to an exact point is like trying to determine when a pile of rocks becomes a heap of rocks. I BELIEVE it's actually, in Philosophy, called the Fallacy of the Heap, but I could be mistaken.

[arstal]

The part that most people find fantastic is that

a) he did all that
b) he air parried last hit- knowing it was only way he could finish him off- cause of the extra damage from a jump in.

[The Chief]

I would like to think that the basics of a fighting game would be knowing and understanding the controls of a game, knowing every character and there move lists. Then it's up to the skill level of the player to figure out how to put those basics together and use them to win.

I agree that knowing how to punish a move and stuff like frame data and strategic hand and button movements would qualify as advanced tactics. Any information that isn't provided up front by the game itself would qualify as advance in my opinion. These would qualify as things that would help advance your basic strategy.

...but for some reason these theories still fail to draw a solid line at what would be considered basic.

Think of it this way. Basics of Super Street Fighter 2: Turbo would include knowing and understanding all basic game controls and characters and thier respective move lists by my theory, But when playing Street Fighter 3: Third Strike, all the same basics will aply, but the with the addition of more moves and more controls i.e. parrying for example. Can a player using basic strategies from Super Street Fighter 2: Turbo win a Third Strike match withough knowing or understanding Parrying, Throwing, and Super Jumping even though the basics of the older game are still part of the new game? Do we just rule the games as two completely different games and the player must start from scratch to understand the basics of the new game?

How would we explain the losses, a player that would be seen as a solid 3S player, suffers when playing ST?

Where do we draw the line?

[Mixah]

I think, as you said, that a player cannot inquire everything they've learned from one game to another. They still must adapt to the new game, HOWEVER, things like mind games, hi-low mixups can still apply when dealing with a player, because humans still tend to react a certain way.

[The Chief]

Given every detail we discussed, I would agree that learning the basics of whatever game at hand would make winning possible, but the need to learn and evolve ones tactics will undoubfully surfice.

[technique121]

well that pretty much all a fighting game is basic moves techniques used at a high pace movement mastering those is the key to being a winner

[Emil]

The part that most people find fantastic is that

a) he did all that
b) he air parried last hit- knowing it was only way he could finish him off- cause of the extra damage from a jump in.

Actually, he could have avoided the last hit of Chun's super and still jumped in the air. I don't actually play THird Strike, but I've seen MOV parry Chun's super into jump in combo, with the last hit whiffing.

[The Chief]

Actually, he could have avoided the last hit of Chun's super and still jumped in the air. I don't actually play THird Strike, but I've seen MOV parry Chun's super into jump in combo, with the last hit whiffing.

The last hit whiffing!?

I havn't played in a while but let me think.

Taking what you said litterally, it would sound possible if the the player parried every hit and for the last kick of chuns super the player Super Jumped straight up, making the kick whiff and then followed up with a jump in combo of choice, but I would like to think that the window to land a big combo would be alot smaller than it would be if the last kick was parried mid air.

To combo off of a stright up Jump-in round house from Ken, the kick has to land pretty deep, in order to enable you to land with enough hit stun left on your opponent to initiate a follow up combo.

Whiffing the hit would shorten that window too much wouldn't it?

P.S. I can't beleave that after all these years, this match vid is still in discussion. wow

[Emil]

The last hit whiffing!?

I havn't played in a while but let me think.

Taking what you said litterally, it would sound possible if the the player parried every hit and for the last kick of chuns super the player Super Jumped straight up, making the kick whiff and then followed up with a jump in combo of choice, but I would like to think that the window to land a big combo would be alot smaller than it would be if the last kick was parried mid air.

To combo off of a stright up Jump-in round house from Ken, the kick has to land pretty deep, in order to enable you to land with enough hit stun left on your opponent to initiate a follow up combo.

Whiffing the hit would shorten that window too much wouldn't it?

P.S. I can't beleave that after all these years, this match vid is still in discussion. wow

It was done here, last match:

no linking to fucking sbo videos next person will be banned -BACARDI

In any case, this isn't that relevant to the discussion. As stated, defining what is basic and what isn't, may be difficult. Also, are you referring to basics within the system, or basics such as how to play intelligently. Both are important, the latter probably moreso (unless you completely know nothing about the system).

[The Chief]

Vid's not working for me for some reason, but either way, I'd rather stay on topic.

Mix-up's mind games, playing smart or intellegently are all factors that the game itself doesn't offer. The players has to achieve and harness these abilites. A highly intellegent player that has only basic knowledge of a game should have a very good chance at beating a inexperienced player who learded all the advanced tricks by reading an FAQ or watching video. I would also believe that if an advanced player and a player who knows only basics were both highly intellegent, the match would be more in the advanced players favor but the player using basics could still win.

[FSgamer]

High level players win because they know the basics of the game as well as all the little details that other players might overlook.

[Akiha Tohno]

Duck and punch, Duck and punch. Remember to hold back. xD

Fear the cheese!

[Arcas V]

I think it's the fact that high level players really understand basic moves. A lot of players fall victom to not really knowing how a technique actually works, they just know it's good so they use it and hope for the best. Basics may begin with simple things like pokes or what not, but the difference is the knowledge behind that poke. Every action effects you're opponent, so understanding how/why is key.

[Capn Spanky]

I think this is a good point. I know a player that almost refuses to block. He thinks parry is the answer to everything. Now, he can parry alot of stuff, but he hasn't won any tourneys because someone plays a good mixup and shuts him down.
Blocking = Basic
Parry = Intermediate/advanced
In this case Blocking> Parry.

[Ken34]

I think it's the fact that high level players really understand basic moves. A lot of players fall victom to not really knowing how a technique actually works, they just know it's good so they use it and hope for the best. Basics may begin with simple things like pokes or what not, but the difference is the knowledge behind that poke. Every action effects you're opponent, so understanding how/why is key.


I think this explains it all right here, thats the reason I see the "Flashy" players loose to the vanilla players, its because the old school vanilla players have that understanding of why things work the way they do. its like the NBA, Why is Tim Duncan so good? how often does he do something that makes you go "OHHHH!"? not often, but he is always up there in the top tier of players every year, why? because he has the fundamentals of the game down pat.

[Mixah]

I think this explains it all right here, thats the reason I see the "Flashy" players loose to the vanilla players, its because the old school vanilla players have that understanding of why things work the way they do. its like the NBA, Why is Tim Duncan so good? how often does he do something that makes you go "OHHHH!"? not often, but he is always up there in the top tier of players every year, why? because he has the fundamentals of the game down pat.

Good shit.

[gouki10]

obivously the first thing you do is start basic, once you master that, you build on the basics to become advanced.

basics win until you are forced to get better. if you can't understand how to get better than you are missing a basic element in everygame. Seeing what you need to improve on, then doing it.

[Mixah]

obivously the first thing you do is start basic, once you master that, you build on the basics to become advanced.

basics win until you are forced to get better. if you can't understand how to get better than you are missing a basic element in everygame. Seeing what you need to improve on, then doing it.

Not true. Many players don't master the basics before they get into the advanced stuff. aka, trying to build Rome in a day.

[pherai]

Good topic! I play akuma too and one of my worst tendencies as a player is to get too caught up in my tricks when I should be starting with straight forward tactics and seeing what works. Just last night I was playing a Ken who was giving me some serious trouble. Once I tried to refocus my game around footsies and low risk tactics, I couldn't be beat.

This also depends on the character. Certain characters simply don't have a good response to certain tactics unless they start trying to do tricky advanced stuff themselves. You can't really play a good Yun without being able to do geneijin, which I wouldn't really classify under 'basics' In general though, I think its essential to have a solid normals game before learning the big combos and such.

[Capn Spanky]

Good topic! I play akuma too and one of my worst tendencies as a player is to get too caught up in my tricks when I should be starting with straight forward tactics and seeing what works. Just last night I was playing a Ken who was giving me some serious trouble. Once I tried to refocus my game around footsies and low risk tactics, I couldn't be beat.

This also depends on the character. Certain characters simply don't have a good response to certain tactics unless they start trying to do tricky advanced stuff themselves. You can't really play a good Yun without being able to do geneijin, which I wouldn't really classify under 'basics' In general though, I think its essential to have a solid normals game before learning the big combos and such.

Definitely good advice from an SRK vet and (as far as I understand) a good akuma player. It seems like every player wants to Jiro Demon before they can Demon Flip Mixup and that just kills their game.

[xero15]

this is a good thread. i try and stay as basic as possible but then there is always that urge to do something fancy, mvc2, to intimidate the opponent. now be it this doesnt always work but i think it helpful sometimes. overall being basic helps me understand what im watching also. with that said when i play humans its easy to adjust when stuff is not working out and applying mixup games and what not, but on the flip side i lose to the computer alot except for mvc2, not because i necessarily suck at it but it just seems like i try so hard to force things to work without actually taking my time as if it were a human player (cocky maybe?), but does anyone else run into this problem against people they know they can beat flat out?

also why are links to sbo vids banned?

[The V]

I think knowing the basics should include identifying how the game is designed to be played. In older SF games like ST or HF spacing and foot games is how primarily what the game was designed for. If a player could see this, it shapes his or her play, for example, the player would block appropriately, wouldn't jump too much and would look for and try to make the opponent miss moves. In later Capcom SF and SF-like games, the spacing and ground game are still important as that is fundamentally the SF engine, but there is more complexity now, built on by subsystems and engine tweaks and identifying what those are designed to achieve is an important basic step (or most often how they end up being used is important like VCs in A3 were probably not meant to lead to infinites, but because they can, landing VCs that lead to infinites became an important goal in the game). This means strict adherence to basics in one game, say spacing and footsies in HF, won't let you win as much as you can in 3S, a game, I think, whose play is designed primarily on mix-ups (which leads to some more guessing than some players would like in a fighting game).

I guess all I really wanted to say was fighting games are designed with different play mechanics to get to the common win condition of reducing your opponent to zero health or leass health than you at zero time. These mechanics determine what basic strategy you are using. If a game is designed mostly for zoning, you should zone mostly, if it is designed mostly for mix ups you play with more mix ups, and you shouldn't focus on exclusively on zoning in a game designed based on mix ups even if zoning strategies are still part of the game. A few minutes watching or playing the game should be enough to help identify how the game is to be played, which I think is an important basic step.

[Katsurugi]

This thread definitely delivers. I can't really add any more than what was already said. The basics really are pretty general and can be applied to almost any situation. Know when you should block and attack. Of course how this comes about can be very different from one player to the next. Advanced players are able to exploit vulnerabilities in their opponent or create opportunities when they can attack successfully (not necessarily being able to execute high level combos or anything, but it certainly doesn't hurt :sweat: ).

[Emil]

I think knowing the basics should include identifying how the game is designed to be played.

This assumes the creators themselves had the right thing in mind with respect to how to play the game. I really don't think what you said is important...I can mention a wide variety of things that weren't intended to be in the game, yet are dominantlyl used in high level gameplay.

[xero15]

with that said though i dont think any of these games originally were meant to be as big a hit as they are now. i think when they realized what they were doin the designers were making games that seemed up to standards but werent really checking out the product which lead to stuff like infinites etc.

[MOD]

Basics in my opinion will only get you so far. You need options and gimmicks and setups that people will fall for.

[The Chief]

I think it's the fact that high level players really understand basic moves. A lot of players fall victom to not really knowing how a technique actually works, they just know it's good so they use it and hope for the best. Basics may begin with simple things like pokes or what not, but the difference is the knowledge behind that poke. Every action effects you're opponent, so understanding how/why is key.

I love this post.

It basically says exactly what I have failed to put into words when talking to "new school" players about specific games. I also often feel that when I preach this point, they still don't grasp the necessity of it.

Just two nights ago some "new school" gamers of the SRK scene asked if they could come by and play MvC2 with me. They knew I had basically retired and didn't play the game much anymore, but I saw this as a chance to reminisce on how I missed the competitive scene and also to see what new tricks and techniques have been discovered in my absence.

I've played MvC2 since day one of it's Arcade release in the US. I've watched the games tiers change daily and watched as every single characters advanced techniques and exploits dominated the game or get crushed or countered by another characters abilities. The basics of the game evolved before my eyes every day.

When the guys came over I watched as the 5 top tier charters of the game fought each other match after match. After I had amassed a 10 game streak one of the guys mentioned that I should come back to the scene. That's when the discussion started.

I told them I was never a top player outside of Dallas in this game and I practically quoted the quoted post above. One of the guys said that he didn't know the character tiers at all and he chose his character because they were the characters he sees people use in the vids and tournaments and such. He learned infinites and reset combos, but never really grasp the purposes of either technique. I explained to him that the videos was his weakness an that he should sit in practice mode with the characters he likes and try to find out WHY the characters are top tier.

Another guy (the best of the visiters) successfully told me his weakness when he boasted about how Sent/Cap was practically unstoppable because of Cap. His team was Santhrax. He beat his competition buy relying on CapCom. When I told them and showed them how to stop/dodged CapCom they appeared dumbfounded and shocked. They didn't understand how or why I knew that. I again quoted the post above and told them that understanding the basics of the games characters was key to evolving to the next skill level.

There was another guy trying to use Spiral/Sent because he saw Duc Do using it. Any MvC2 vet knows that the team if executed properly was a dominant team... until Team Seattle (or whoever) made the advanced tactics video and Guard/Push-block cancelling was unveiled. None-the -less what I admired about the guy was that he was playing the team without truly understanding how it (the trap) worked. I had seen Duc and a various other top players play the team countless times and I gave him a few tips and told him to keep playing the team. Don't stop playing the team because learning the team on his own from scratch would give him all the knowledge he would need to beat un seasoned opposition. He will understand the weakness and strengths of the team as well as the weakness and strengths of his opponents teams.

My theory has always been... Knowledge you gain on your own is better than knowledge you get from someone else.

It's like skipping to the ending of a book. The ending won't make sense or have the same impact as it would if you read the book from start to finish. ~ The advanced section of a FAQ for a game won't truly help until you understand the basics of a game.

[Capn Spanky]

There was another guy trying to use Spiral/Sent because he saw Duc Do using it. Any MvC2 vet knows that the team if executed properly was a dominant team... until Team Seattle (or whoever) made the advanced tactics video and Guard/Push-block cancelling was unveiled. None-the -less what I admired about the guy was that he was playing the team without truly understanding how it (the trap) worked. I had seen Duc and a various other top players play the team countless times and I gave him a few tips and told him to keep playing the team. Don't stop playing the team because learning the team on his own from scratch would give him all the knowledge he would need to beat un seasoned opposition. He will understand the weakness and strengths of the team as well as the weakness and strengths of his opponents teams.

My theory has always been... Knowledge you gain on your own is better than knowledge you get from someone else.

It's like skipping to the ending of a book. The ending won't make sense or have the same impact as it would if you read the book from start to finish. ~ The advanced section of a FAQ for a game won't truly help until you understand the basics of a game.

Can you PM me a link to this video? Im not very good at MvC2 at the moment, but I want to get better, and that's part of the road to domination.

Otherwise, I thought the analogy you ended with was really good. That was probably my favorite post in this thread.

[xero15]

yeah that makes a lot more sense to me now. but the question here is for mvc2. at what point is a character advanced? like storm. when i first started off playing the top tiers i had already been playing for a while and didnt know about the competitive scene or tiers. when i decided to jump in with it i was able to take some old stuff from other characters i was playing and use them with storm but i also knew there was so much more for her to do. i picked storm first because people were telling me that she was the easiest to use of the top four and also one of the hardest when you get deep into her. well at what point does she get advanced seeing as basics for one person may not be the basics for another. does anyone get what im saying?

[The Chief]

Can you PM me a link to this video? Im not very good at MvC2 at the moment, but I want to get better, and that's part of the road to domination.

Otherwise, I thought the analogy you ended with was really good. That was probably my favorite post in this thread.

I'd be hardpressed to find the video on the web. It dates back to before 02 I believe. It has alot of super advanced techniques that most players today can't even pull off.

I know I have it on a VCD somewhere along with other MvC2 stuff. If I find it I'll let you know.

Aside from the vid. Thanks for reading the post and finding it worthwhile. I will recomend to you that playing the game without watching videos and reading faq's and such is the first step to being dominant. Once you feel that you've gained a clear understanding for the game itself and you feel that you've learned all you can learn on your own, then watching videos and studying other players techniques is the next step to being a contender.

[pherai]

snip

Great post. I don't play marvel, but I can relate this to myself learning 3s. I used to do a lot of poking strings that were hit confirmable, or could set up tick throws, but I had no intention of supering or throwing; I had just seen top players doing these things, and didn't know the purpose, just thought I would do the same thing. I think in this respect, videos are not helpful to the new player, because the advanced tactics will not be understood. The result is a new player doing certain things incorrectly, or at the wrong times, which will in turn hurt their game overall.

At the same time though, I would have to disagree that its better to find things out on your own. If someone had taught me what my goal was with the poke strings I was using, I would have instantly understood, instead of it slowly coming full circle, once I started hit confirming things and using tick throws. Thats why I think having a teacher to explain what they are doing as you are watching it helps.

[The Chief]

yeah that makes a lot more sense to me now. but the question here is for mvc2. at what point is a character advanced? like storm. when i first started off playing the top tiers i had already been playing for a while and didnt know about the competitive scene or tiers. when i decided to jump in with it i was able to take some old stuff from other characters i was playing and use them with storm but i also knew there was so much more for her to do. i picked storm first because people were telling me that she was the easiest to use of the top four and also one of the hardest when you get deep into her. well at what point does she get advanced seeing as basics for one person may not be the basics for another. does anyone get what im saying?

Yeah, I know what you're saying. Let me take a stab at it.

For the theory that I've been presenting, the basics for Storm in MvC2 would include knowing her entire movelist and the characteristics of her basic and special attacks. Knowing and understanding her added manuverabilites such as air-dashing and flight. After you study these traits, you can now go into the a more detailed study to decipher the advantages and disadvantages of each trait. Through this you will notice things like the ability of her c.mk as a sweep that knocks down the oppoent. You will notce the different ranges her 3 launches. You will notice that all of her air and ground typoon attacks will penetrate all projectiles, which special attacks can be canceled into a super attack and what standard attacks you feel are good if canceled into super attacks.

The goal is to discover all the information that the game itself will provide for you as you play it.

The Advanced techniques of a game or it's charaters are usually found out on accident after you've played the game millions of times. You will notice abnormal things or things that you did on accident that would prove to be useful if you can figure out how you did it. Once you harness the abilities and can explain why, how it works and how to do it, it becomes an advanced tactic.

For a game like MvC2 the advanced tactics are for the most part universal meaning every character has them. The only catch is that Not Every Character Can Take Advantage Of Them.

Things like canceling an attack into a super jump. Wave Dashing, Gaurd Cancelling, Suki Cancelling are all advanced techniques that every characyer in the game can take advantage of.

Triangle-Jumping, Infinite combos, Un-fly mode, Leaving the screen and such are advanced tactics that only certain characters can take advantade of.

Then there are character specific advanced tactics, such as "Fast Fly".

Once you understand the basics of a charater you can then add the advanced aspects off the game to the way you play your character. Then you will find out if they help or hurt your character over all.

Regaurdless of the outcome, you gain vast knowledge of the game itself and it's quailties. Knowledge that alot of players skip over. That automatically gives you an advantage during battle. All you have to do is use your knowledge properly.

[The Chief]

Great post. I don't play marvel, but I can relate this to myself learning 3s. I used to do a lot of poking strings that were hit confirmable, or could set up tick throws, but I had no intention of supering or throwing; I had just seen top players doing these things, and didn't know the purpose, just thought I would do the same thing. I think in this respect, videos are not helpful to the new player, because the advanced tactics will not be understood. The result is a new player doing certain things incorrectly, or at the wrong times, which will in turn hurt their game overall.

At the same time though, I would have to disagree that its better to find things out on your own. If someone had taught me what my goal was with the poke strings I was using, I would have instantly understood, instead of it slowly coming full circle, once I started hit confirming things and using tick throws. Thats why I think having a teacher to explain what they are doing as you are watching it helps.

Thanks. I on the onther hand play 3S, ST and a variety of other fighting games. For the most part I play and learn everything myself with a training/sparring partner and local competition. I usually never run straight to videos or any type of traingin help, until I feel comfortable that I've learned all I can on my own.

I will agree that having someone sit down with you and show you what to do and explain things to you is very helpful. My theory actually looks past the idea of having a teacher. If you think about it, that knowledege the teacher is sharing with you had to come from somewhere, wether they were taught by someone else or they sat down and found the teachings themself. Think of my theory as if you are in the position of the teacher. You gained this knowledge through years of experience but now you understand it to the point that now you have the ability of showing and teaching someone else what you've found.

[epsilon_]

good topic, knowledge vs wisdom

you might know something, like a fact say 3 x 3=9, but do you really know it until you've truly experienced it?

[The Chief]

good topic, knowledge vs wisdom

you might know something, like a fact say 3 x 3=9, but do you really know it until you've truly experienced it?

:lol:

You just broke this thread.

[StephonJ]

Of course basics win. The fundamentals are everything. U can't just expect to be good at anything if you don't know the simpliest things.

3S, for instance. If you don't know how to perform your character's basic moves, how can you move on to learning buffering techniques or kara canceling. The fundamentals are always key.

[Impact009]

Personally, I think that players who learn advance techniques without fully knowing the basics won't be able to fully utilize those advance techniques. Then again, I probably don't think I have to say that to anybody here.

In my opinion, basics are knowing how the engine functions and knowing what attacks you and your opponent possess.

[Kasou]

in high level play, basics is where it is at. The spacing, zoning and the knowledge of when and where to attack. Everything else offered in the newer games, combos and mix ups, are just fancy nice looking tools you use after you are in an advantage situation. Watch any high level game. It's not because they have an awesome mix up that won them the game. It's the ability to find the oppurtunity for themselves to land the mix up/combo that won them the game.