Why the hate for Dead or Alive? [Archive]

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DietSoap

01-28-2007, 05:55 PM

Aion

01-28-2007, 06:25 PM

Only DOA3.1/2 deserves props, and maybe DOA++. Bun all the rest.

Master Chibi

01-28-2007, 06:26 PM

Why do people come to SRK to complain about games that people on SRK don't really play?

?____?

DietSoap

01-28-2007, 06:37 PM

Why do people come to SRK to complain about games that people on SRK don't really play?

?____? I was expecting this and would like to clarify that is not the case. I asked because there are usually good reasons I'm not aware of.

altergenesis

01-28-2007, 06:38 PM

Some people play, so it doesn't matter if people think it sucks. Leave it to them. I'll play DOA4.

GalzPanic

01-28-2007, 06:46 PM

Most ppl who hate doa have no idea how to play. If someone does know how to play, but still doesn't like it, is more reasonable. Unfortunately, the ones who hate it are usually the loudest. It shouldn't matter to you. just have funz.

Shinto

01-28-2007, 06:55 PM

I hate it, its random, thats my opinion.

DietSoap

01-29-2007, 06:28 PM

its random, Maybe it's just me, but the amount of damage given and recieved in DOA2 Hardcore is random.

I could just be imagining this, but I'm almost positive. Can anyone confirm this?

Lantis

01-29-2007, 10:13 PM

You made a thread with "hate" on the topic....

...in SRK, of all places....

True Grave

01-29-2007, 10:20 PM

Khiempossible

01-29-2007, 10:21 PM

DOA = rock/paper/scissors with boobs.

Shinto

01-29-2007, 10:30 PM

DOA = rock/paper/scissors with boobs.

god this might take my sig away.
:wonder:

Kayin

01-29-2007, 10:39 PM

DoA isn't that bad, 4 is actually an improvement over the previous games in the series. 2U is okay but the counter damage is still way too high.

bobino

01-29-2007, 11:07 PM

yaaaa.... at this past evo i was able to win 3 or 4 matches in the tourney after spending 3 hrs with the game. I wonder why no one takes this game seriously

Dios <-X->

01-29-2007, 11:24 PM

Doa 4 is fun. Really fast gameplay with mad mindgames and such.

m121akuma

01-30-2007, 01:14 PM

Actually, I've noticed significantly less hate for DOA since 4 came out.

Shibuya

01-30-2007, 04:14 PM

wow another DOA debate.....why dont we just hate on something that everyone hates......Like Virtual Fighter series!!!!!!!

01-30-2007, 04:16 PM

why dont we just hate on something that everyone hates......Like Virtual Fighter series!!!!!!!

Because Virtual Fighter doesn't exist. Now, if you mean Virtua Fighter, then that's just suicide in the form of .HTML text.

Ki Shima

01-31-2007, 03:28 AM

yaaaa.... at this past evo i was able to win 3 or 4 matches in the tourney after spending 3 hrs with the game. I wonder why no one takes this game seriously

so youd rather play a game that heavily relies on past practice and "how to beat everyone with a braindead technique" discussions.

doa4 requires the ability to adapt.

i hope it never changes, i love 2D fighters more but doing the same shit all the time gets old quick.

i hope vf5 is online, otherwise its pointless

jimmy1200

01-31-2007, 08:41 AM

the reversal window in doa2hc and up until 4 i believe, was fucking retarded. super retarded.
the damage from reversals and falling off of stuff is still to high in my opinion.
alot of people dont really give it a time of day because it is so fast paced, and because of that, feels alot more random. well, honestly, it is alot more random then the other mainstream 3d games out now. its system is made to play quick and get r done it seems.
i like the wall effects and sound when you smash someone into one of those shits, and the slow down if you kill them off of the wall.
i dont like the fact that after a stun hit, they still have the oppurtunity to reverse your next move, because there arent alot of guaranteed combos in the game, but you have to guess your reversal right. high, low or mid. obviously top players have better tactics, and dont usually run into this problem as much as the average masher or player. unlike other games like tek 5 and dr, where a ch leads to guaranteed ass jugglin time, but you can break out of some ch, but you cant go immediately into a reversal.
the fact that everyone has the capability to reverse is kinda annoying. i like it to be more character specific.
there is something to the doa series. play it if you want. i think its a fun decent game. its not as trashy as everyone will make it out to be, but its still not top tier on gameplay vs the other mainstream 3d fighting games.
put it like this. i played doa2hc seriously one day for about 4 hours, then went over my friends house to play doa4. i raped the shit out of him, and then went online and won like every match vs a class and s class players. granted, we were ranked e, because we usually just get super drunk and play the game online and talk shit, and get our asses kicked. i got us up to about b class before i quit. i only lost a few times. now i know its online play and it doesnt say a whole lot in most peoples eyes, and in mine to, to an extent, but im sure most of those players play everyday, and probably thought they were good, and were probably decent, but it only took me 4 hours of applying the ryu shit i learned in doa2hc, to doa4, plus adding a few new things i learned, and i was kicking ass. the game is alot more newbie friendly then most.

all that aside. i love the characters in the game. i dont know what kinda man would not like it. play the game. there are serious players out there, and you can take the game seriously. dont let anyone else discourage you from playing it. just go check out doacentral and you can find some peeps there willing to play in your area, or online if you get doa4 or 3.

it has its bullshit, but what game doesnt

vf5 is not gonna be online. and what game would you be referring to about the brain dead tactics?

DragonSama

01-31-2007, 09:49 AM

Well the main reason why DOA gets hate is this.

DOA 1: Heavily modified VF engine that played like crap. Really strange Bouncing boobs made it look like a gimmick game. (they had their own gravity even)

DOA 2: Vast improvement over the first. The game play was fast and it was easy to pick up and play. At he time it was very graphically impressive. However the Counter damage was so high it became who every would attack first would lose. Eliminating any rush down in the game at all. So you basically had two turtles sitting there waiting for someone to attack. Not fun!

DOA 3: Improved over 2 but the counter damage was still insanely high. The game was broken completely buy a guy who only played it for 3 days and found Hayate’s Cartwheel loop is invincible.

DOA1U: See DOA 1 Also less characters than the PS1 version

DOA2U: Fixed many of the problems DOA2 had in terms of frame rate and it looked great but it still had the problems that DOA 2 had in terms of it being a turtle match and high counter damage. Also DOA2u: spawned Justownin and he was the most annoying scrub ever. he hyped himself beyond belief only to get GGPOed in every tourney he's in.

DOA4: I haven’t played but I hear it was pretty good. I can’t tell you myself though.

TheDarkPhoenix

01-31-2007, 09:57 AM

DOA4 is pretty good, I play it randomly online...

The Granby

01-31-2007, 12:00 PM

Alright lets break it down before shit gets out of hand.

DoA1 original: Kind of crappy game, rip the VF system, holds were distrubingly abusable (tho very low damage). Game was decent.

DoA++: Very rare upgrade of DoA1. Better graphics, had possibly the best hold system of ALL TIME. 2 way low damage hold outside of stuns, 6 way multiple direction hold inside of stun. Backdashing was actually useful, frame data useful. Good game but near impossible to play outside of emulators.

DoA2 Arcade: From what I heard it and Millenium edition were okay games. Double direction 4 way hold system. Damage was RETARDLY high. Backdashing sucked, SS was kind of clumsy, Ein and Hayabusa were pretty nasty.

DoA2 HC, DC, LE: First DC version was horrible, jump attacks pwned the game. Next one was better and more true to the arcade game. HC was also decent, introduced 3 way holds which absolutely SUCKED in Doa2.

DoA2U: This is actually probably the worst version of DoA2. Tengu was retarded to good, Stages were absolutely stupid and broken. Hayabusa on any stage with ledge or ceiling was absolutely disgusting to watch. Step was made universal for whatever reason and that got rid of jump (there by destroying spacing). Step wasn't even useful. 4 way SINGLE DIRECTION (wtf?) holds. Backdashing still sucked.

DoA3.0: American release that was unfinished. SS is somewhat tweaked down (you can still evade but it's kind of rediculess in most situations). Had more useful frame data. Introduced 3-way LOW DAMGE holds (doa2 holds were 60-100 dmg, doa3 holds do 40-60, get your facts straight). Hayate kind of pwn3d this game cause he was basically the only character that could play frame traps all day long. IMO still a good game for a rushed release. Also introduced the wall bounce which lead to nice wall combos for every character (except Leon lol, poor dude)

DoA3.1: Japanese version, for those that didn't know JPN ver tournies BAN hayate cartwheel (kind of like ST akuma). Technically you can beat the cartwheel with certain characters but you can also beat ST akuma with certain characters, who cares? Still broken. The JPN ver. was really good. SS was very powerful and in particular SS attacks were powerful (Gen Fu power). Characters were made more safer and generally given aggressive tools. You recover quicker from BT situations in Doa3.1 which somewhat toned down BT combo madness. DoA3 does have some infinites but they are rather difficult to set up and take a hell of alot of work to trick your opponent into eating them, plus they are stage specific

DoA3.2: Tweaked JPN ver. for PAL. Cartwheel fixed/nerfed. SS somewhat toned down. Some other minor changes.

DoA4.0: Kind of a mixed bag here. This game still had Crouch Combo's (which I liked) and though you could hold out of a wall stun (really gay) it had wall 2in1's (which I liked). Unfortunately, people moaned and cried about these things because for whatever reason they felt this stuff was cheap. DoA4 system was a 4 way hold system with DoA2 dmg in out of stun holds and Doa3 dmg in stun holds. I honestly would have prefered the Doa3 system with 4 way, but whatever. Stun system tweaked so you had to hit more stuns in order to get a strong combo. Struggling was better (Slow escape). For whatever reason you can hold out of a non-critical stun (ie like after a Jann Dragon Gunner throw). Crush moves are rediculessly good in this game. BT stun recovery added. Effective Side Stepping removed from the system.

DoA4.1: Nerfed a lot of the characters moves that were felt abusable in online play. Got rid of wall 2in1's and Crouch Combos. Needless to say another mixed bag of opinions on this one. Never the less, the tournament standard and played to this day.

DoA4.2: Supposedly announced, nobody knows what it's gonna be like. Rumors of tweaking the crush system.

A lot of people have uninformed opinions on DoA, that can't be helped because the game does have a rather flaky system in some area's and iterations and frankly people don't give a damn enough to educate themselves on the game. Not to mention DoA players (I mean like SERIOUS players) are kind of hard to find IRL, XBL spoils the community too much imo.

Honestly, if the DoA community does manage to some how pull in numbers from out of it's ass it might become the next Smash. They already are in the Direct TV Championship Gaming Invitational/Series which has stupidly high money prizes for rather rigged settings.

AlphaDragoon02

01-31-2007, 12:03 PM

DOA4 is awesome. The rest of them...not so much.

JustOwnin

01-31-2007, 01:39 PM

Ah yes, the old unevolved bandwagoned into truth idea that dead or alive is trash.

I, THE GREASTEST DOA PLAYER IN HISTORY!/B] I, [b]OWNAGE INCARNATE! I, THE FINAL BOSS IN THE GAME OF LIFE shall answer your question child.

DOAs main selling point to the masses was it's sex appeal.Thus when ti was first played by the fighting game masses of street fighter the general idea that the game merely existed for seal appeal and possessed no depth was spreaded. The problem with the world is that only about 20% of the population actually form their own opinion in the rest of the 80% listen to the 20. So now, with obfiscated views of the game and expecting it to suck they looked upon previous doa's as if they were trash.

Because DOA was drastically different from the other fighting game engines aroudn they labeled it trash. What they did not realize is that doa's coutner system creates a universal system of stoping any strat. That the bases of its strings, stuns, and coutnering system was to emphasize SUPREME AND UTTER ADAPTATION.

Indeed, it can be said that all fighting games or games in general are just your mind vs. your opponents mind over a platio that emphasizses certain mental skillz. Chess emphasizing strategic thuoght and forsight fighting games emphasizing execution, decision making, and adaptation.

Sure all games emphasize adaptation. Knowing your opponents strat is how you fu ckin win. But the early incarnations of doa were designed in such a way that depth could easily be seen or created.

But they all had their TRUE FLAWS, the ACTUAL reasons they were bad games. Not the whole "it's random" When a fight between two minds is nothing but random. Doa 3 wall game was broken. doa3.1 emphasized too much frame advantage usage which doesnt mix well along with the fact that the whole game centered aroudn knocking your opponent towards a wall and getting major damage. Bla bla bla bla.

Only when doa4 hit did everything get right. THe wall game was great, the wake up game was supremely tweaked, the engine was perfect. In fact doa4 is more balanced game than both t5 and sc3.

DOA4 counter system window got shortened. Although I'd like to say that people say that "coutnering is too easy in doa4" I'd just like to say that its not performing a counter in doa that should be hard. The same is with rock and cvs2, after a week or so you get used to it. It's actually predicting the movement of your opponent TO counter that is difficult. And in doa at high level play it becomes quite so.

As far as breaking throws go in other fighting games throws are a mixup within themselves. You throw a person and they must predict which throw you used. In doa throws are not a mixup within themselves but a key part to a intrigal reoccuring mixup in doa. Basically their a punishing tool. If you know someone is gonna do a coutner you throw them. If your stringing somebody and you think their gonna keep blocking you interrupt and throw them.

Their are no broken strats and even low tier characters can win. Sure Hayabusa's top but not as top as t4 jin t5 ninja n' steev. Just enough better than all the characters to be the best, but not enough to be broken.

In fact in the latest incarnation of our little tier list they claim taht my character Hitomi is low tier and that they always thought she was close to top because I would consistantly and unexplainably crush every opponent with the upmost of ease. Sure when studying the strast I use she seems godly. But when analyzing her actually damage ration, risk/reward ratio, tools in comparison to other characters, counter strength etc. she is placed lowly. I don't argue, I just OWN kn3wbz harder.

So in anycase doa4 is great but sadly the same idea that doa is trash stays. The masses simply look at doa4 with the saem prejudice they looked at the other gaems and say that it sucks. THe human mind is powerful, one can find reasons not to like anything if they have a presupposition.

So although doa4 is geniually a deep, fun, and all aroudn good game their belief system will stay the same.

Basically it's a stand alone complex. The fact tha doa sucked was spreaded by respected plaeyrs and accepted by the masses. Now the only way it can go away is by a respected player telling the masses doa is good and then spreadnig it across the masses. the only thing that can beat a stand alone complex is another stand aloen complex.

In the end doa is a game with depth and potential. If you donot know we do have a on and offline scene that can be foudn at doacentral.com where we play all the time.

For a recent thread under this same category at doac, go here:

"Why does this get more respect than doa does?"
http://www.doacentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14474&start=25

I think my reply is on the second page.

JustOwnin

01-31-2007, 01:43 PM

Also DOA2u: spawned Justownin and he was the most annoying scrub ever. he hyped himself beyond belief only to get GGPOed in every tourney he's in.
.

YOU DARE INSULT THE ABSOLUTEN3SS OF MY POWER KN3WB?! The amoutn of OWNAGE I serve out in a single SECOND dwarfs the efforts of your whole entire life! The amoutn of power that I hold in my toenail is enough to engulf the entirity of your soul into the black abyss! Indeed, their exists times where an opponent has ascended to the doa heavens and faced me as my peer leaving me defeated to be banished into the darkest caves! But as I dwelled in those caves the caves themselves were OWNED! As I climbed the mountains back to the heights of which I once knew the moutains themselves were OWNED! And as I once again returned to the DOA HEAVENS and astracted my mighty revenge against my opponent that opponent has always been OWNED!

Indeed, my greatn3ss is an absolute truth unquestionable and undeniable as the illumination that we receive from the sun!

_______________
THINGS TO DO AFTER BEING CHALLENGED BY JUSTOWNIN:

1.) Put your feelings in safe place so they won’t get hurt.
2.) Sign up for the rehab class “Life after OWNAGE.” Sign up quick, classes fill up FAST!
3.) Prepare a place on your wall for the CERTIFICATE OF OWNAGE that will be mailed to you soon.
4.) PREPARE TO BE OWNED!!!

TheDarkPhoenix

01-31-2007, 01:49 PM

JustOwnin

01-31-2007, 01:54 PM

DOA4 is alot like SC2 without the random broken/Overpowered characters...

Its fun, its deep but deep as far as mind games. Heck my lil siter could play DOA4, and mess people up because she's good at mind games and or adapting to different play style's where as she couldn't play mvc2 in 100 years because of the rcrazy excution you must have.

Do4 is kinda like the World of warcraft of the fighting game world. Casual friends but old shool heads hate it...

Does the amount of execution required to learn a game define it's depth? If that is so, then by your logic MvC2 would be considered deeper than 3s because of this when this is indeed not so.

DOA required just as much execution as it would take to learn soul calibur 2.

iAmJu

01-31-2007, 02:09 PM

Slide

01-31-2007, 02:14 PM

snip

Good post.

In the end doa is a game with depth and potential.

That's true. Hopefully the series will improve.

Does the amount of execution required to learn a game define it's depth? If that is so, then by your logic MvC2 would be considered deeper than 3s because of this when this is indeed not so.

It's a part of a whole.
And there are some ppl that do consider MvC2 deeper than 3s.

TheDarkPhoenix

01-31-2007, 02:23 PM

Does the amount of execution required to learn a game define it's depth? If that is so, then by your logic MvC2 would be considered deeper than 3s because of this when this is indeed not so.

DOA required just as much execution as it would take to learn soul calibur 2.

you just repeated everything I said....

Depth is different to different people, Chess is a deep game that requires very little execution , football is a deep game that requires more execution . Most people prefer games that require alot of execution rather than mental mind games.

If you had to watch someone fake someone out playing football or watch somone somelike connect 4 you'd choose football everytime. Hence why people love marvel so much...

I love mind games, My execution isn't that great soo....If i can just fake a player out, or annoying them enough to make a mistake. I do much better....

caliagent#3

01-31-2007, 02:24 PM

Can someone plz repost the vid of justownin getting wrecked in tekken

lol, dunno how old this is but it sure is funny : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V79r4Eh-nqw

HAHAHA found the vid http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8524377290044991570

The Chief

01-31-2007, 04:03 PM

One of the main reasons that people feel makes DoA4 less respected than other games in it's genre is DoA's learning curve. Picking up the game for the first time and winning is not a challenge that is considered to be difficult. But on the same token the simplicity of DoA4 learning curve makes it harder to master.

Since the basics of playing DoA are simple that means it would be hard to find an opponent who has absolutely no idea what they are doing. Even if a player studies all of the advanced techniques that player still wouldn't gain a significant advantage from the average DoA player.

The purpose of this design is to create the most blanaced fighting game ever by hypothetically leveling the games playing field across the board.

So how do you master a game where even the most advanced techniques give you only a minor advantage?

For these reasons people either love or hate the game. Love it for it's simplicity or hate it because it's hard to master.

Humbag

01-31-2007, 04:43 PM

lol at justownin, learn a real game, and stop boasting because your crap.

The_Dragon

01-31-2007, 04:50 PM

Let us not forget in our analysis of DOA the utter garbage that is the community for the game. Mostly made up of competitive fighting gamer dregs that drifted away from other more solid communities and XBOX live scrubs, it is truly a pinnacle of waste and idiocy rarely seen in the competitive scene.

I remember my first time visiting the DOACentral site and browsing the forums. I noted a 500+ reply thread about "Hitomi dancing NAKED in Japanese ending" while, when I went to browse the strategy and character technique sections, I found bare bones leavings that mostly had valuable contributions from casual DOA players hardcore into other games, like JOP or Semi.

I believe the last time I checked the forums were still in that same sorry state. The character sections there are a joke. Many of the combos posted are not guaranteed and you have to sift through pages of waste to get to anything worthwhile, and people posting real strategy or technique with characters is rare indeed.

Compare that to real competitive gaming communities, like Tekken, where multiple posts are made about practically every aspect of every character, combos are rated by damage, difficulty, and usually condensed into a sticky topic at the forum, and constant strategy discussion is debated. Compared to that, the DOA community is shown as what it really is, a worthless pile of refuse.

Shizuma_15

01-31-2007, 04:51 PM

lol at justownin, learn a real game, and stop boasting because your crap.

:rofl:

Zigmover21

01-31-2007, 04:52 PM

Riot.EXE

01-31-2007, 07:30 PM

:rofl:

I second that.

The Granby

01-31-2007, 08:52 PM

People hate DOA for 2 main reasons:

1) The game still sucks.

2) The community is ass.

Every time tourney organizers give the game a chance, nobody shows up. It's had a few high-profile events, thanks to sponsorships, but the competitive scene just bitches without doing anything.

QFT

JO, why are you posting? You do know even if you post something good and reasonable, people STILL won't give a damn cause it's JO saying it. The same JO getting raped in the Tekken vid a couple posts up. The same JO that gets pwned in almost every fighting game ever made outside of DoA. Do you not realize you hurt the game MORE when you post?

jae hoon

01-31-2007, 09:14 PM

Azagtoth

01-31-2007, 10:11 PM

Because DOA was drastically different from the other fighting game engines aroudn they labeled it trash.

I'm sorry this has to be the funniest thing I've ever read.

BTW, T5 and SC3 are both supremely broken games, thats why anyone who cares plays T5DR and SC3AE instead.

Lantis

02-01-2007, 12:00 AM

Didn't JustOwnin post some stupid challenge regarding SvC a while ago, got called out on it, and then ran away like a bitch? LAWL! :rofl:

shoultzula

02-01-2007, 02:10 AM

theres alot of factors that go into determining depth. Execution is part of it but the engine of the game, the speed and the mind game behind it. All of that contributes to the "depth" of the game.

but yea I would say marvel is deeper than 3s because of the execution and actual speed of play.

DragonSama

02-01-2007, 10:10 AM

YOU DARE INSULT THE ABSOLUTEN3SS OF MY POWER KN3WB?! The amoutn of OWNAGE I serve out in a single SECOND dwarfs the efforts of your whole entire life! The amoutn of power that I hold in my toenail is enough to engulf the entirity of your soul into the black abyss! Indeed, their exists times where an opponent has ascended to the doa heavens and faced me as my peer leaving me defeated to be banished into the darkest caves! But as I dwelled in those caves the caves themselves were OWNED! As I climbed the mountains back to the heights of which I once knew the moutains themselves were OWNED! And as I once again returned to the DOA HEAVENS and astracted my mighty revenge against my opponent that opponent has always been OWNED!

Indeed, my greatn3ss is an absolute truth unquestionable and undeniable as the illumination that we receive from the sun!

_______________
THINGS TO DO AFTER BEING CHALLENGED BY JUSTOWNIN:

1.) Put your feelings in safe place so they won’t get hurt.
2.) Sign up for the rehab class “Life after OWNAGE.” Sign up quick, classes fill up FAST!
3.) Prepare a place on your wall for the CERTIFICATE OF OWNAGE that will be mailed to you soon.
4.) PREPARE TO BE OWNED!!!

:zzz: what did you place at Evo?

Dead Or Alive 4
1) Carl White (Perfect Legend)
2) Emmanuel Rodriguez (Master)
3) Luke Hess (thehighguy)
4) Daniel Roberson (FinalBoss)
5th tie) Jeremy Florence (Black Mamba)
5th tie) Erik Argetsinger (Rikuto)
7th tie) Jimmy Ellis (JustOwnin)
7th tie) Bill Menoutis (Tom Brady)

Looks like you got owned by at least 6 people son. You've got a lot to learn before you beat them. Try again, kiddo!

roninwarrior24

02-01-2007, 05:43 PM

What I find funny is that in most non-DOA sites, DOA4 is regarded as a huge improvement over the ones that came before it, whereas in DOACentral, DOA4 is hated on even by some of it's top players. Most of them say that 3.1/3.2 is the superior game (mainly because of the side-step game, frame advantage, etc.).

One thing I find rather funny: In almost all DOA games (ESPECIALLY 4) the ninjas are either top tier or upper tier. They have the Mishima syndrome I guess, but they only need about half the skill. Not saying that they're scrub characters, it's just that the Mishimas are the epitome of the term "not noob-friendly". I mention DOA4 because TN actually found a way to beef up Hayabusa and (to a lesser extent) Hayate, Kasumi, and Ayane. The ninjas are beefed up in expense of the grappler characters, I guess (Bass...).

caliagent#3

02-01-2007, 06:09 PM

SCOTT POPULAR

02-01-2007, 06:30 PM

:sweat: W0000ooo boy! Sho is hot up in here?! I wanna play DOA4, but I ended up giving it to my cousin. It's like 25buck here in Tokyo. So I might pick it up again.

Does anyone know of any good Bass, Lei Fang, or Tina videos or Strats. I got someboby in mind that I want to be down!

Like I really wanna try to get into DOA4, but I fucking skateboarded for about 2 miles on the worst side walk ever in the cold. Just to get DOAX2! :rofl:

Mixah

02-01-2007, 07:32 PM

One thing i believe HURTS DOA's appeal, is that in various ads, it is the boobies that are the main focus and not the game play.

Leaving some to assume it is just a crappy, shallow title, and not a serious fighter.

not at all... i don't mind the boobs one bit...

what i DO mind, however... is the fact that until DoA4, none of them were good in terms of fighting games... after giving the fourth one more htan 10 minutes of time... i've come to realize that shit, it's pretty fucking decent.

as callmeanewb said... the other games were rock / paper / scissors with boobs... just pick a random direction and mash on the free button.

psychochronic

02-02-2007, 10:22 PM

DOA 3: Improved over 2 but the counter damage was still insanely high. The game was broken completely buy a guy who only played it for 3 days and found Hayate’s Cartwheel loop is invincible.

I think there was a few matches (I think it was 5 matches) of this tournament on video. Anyone got the link for this?

Matarick

02-04-2007, 06:45 AM

You've got a lot to learn before you beat them. Try again, kiddo!

Continue?

*cues pre CPS1 music*
:rofl:

As for the DOA series, they are just simple fun games where you can counter almost everything without worrying too much about frame buffers.

I would love to get a 360 so I can play DOA4 but I just wish Sega would port DOA 4 to Lindberg or Taito to port it to the latest version of System X and sell it to arcades. This series needs to return to the arcades. If there is a Need for Speed Arcade game, why not the latest Dead or Alive?

Aion

02-04-2007, 07:17 AM

I think there was a few matches (I think it was 5 matches) of this tournament on video. Anyone got the link for this?
Perhaps here?: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=abysmalmonkey

It wasn't a tourney though.

Ki Shima

02-04-2007, 08:25 AM

i wanna know why the hell a game with ultimate simplicity is in a tournament anyway??

games like 3s or marvel are hard to master so that means it builds pride in each competitor because he/she has to do all kinds of shit just to survive, watching that is more interesting, and getting involved is more safer cos the possibilities arent limitless like doa4

i like doa 4 ALOT, cos it requires mind games, me actually feeling like what i do is my own independant idea's

i know saying this may be agaisnt some people but i live in the U.K, theres not much of a fighting game scene here, and if there was id be playing marvel or 3s MUCH more often cos of the social experience i would have which iv had growing up since i was 8

i dont know why people compare doa to other fighters i think thats the dumbest thing iv ever seen, which is ALWAYS repeated

people just dont learn that fighting games can be more diffrent than they realize, and its because of people saying games SHOULD be this and that way because it agree's with your conditioned limited brain pattern is what is REALLY killing the gaming industry.

no offence, but you know, its a downwards spiral till you learn to open your god damn mind :rolleyes:

1/2Man1/2God

02-05-2007, 04:37 PM

I thought they were all good for 3d fighters..but Tekken,VF, and SC are light years ahead.If DOA just didn't have so many impossible things happen during play people would like it more...stuff like counters taking out a ridiculous amount of damage.AND COUNTERING BEING A RIDICULOSLY MAJOR PART OF THE GAME.in some cases if you don't counter u lose.no blocking no side stepping just counter.

Aion

02-05-2007, 05:57 PM

1/2Man1/2God

02-06-2007, 01:53 AM

Countering is honestly cononable in DOA, IF they toned down the damage. It creates that three way deadlock unique to DOA. Well, here's hoping DOA5 is based off of DOA3.1/2 rather than DOA2 like DOA4 was.

y did the story line suck so hard after DOA2...and why the fuck are Ein and Hayate on the same game hen they're are he same person.

hkrok76

02-06-2007, 04:12 AM

JustOwnin

02-06-2007, 12:56 PM

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djwoodford

caliagent#3

02-06-2007, 01:36 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8524377290044991570

1/2Man1/2God

02-06-2007, 06:08 PM

Because.....Hayate was the story character and Ein was an extra character. Is that really so hard to understand? Considering we're Street Fighter fans, we really have no right to complain about convoluted storylines in game. If you must really know, Ein was trained by Hitomi's father and thus present during her storyline. After DOA2, Ein remembered he was Hayate and returned to being a ninja for DOA3 onwards. I'd like to see a version of Hayate that uses elements from Ein. That would have some top tier bullshit coming out of everywhere.

like you said i'd also like to see Hyate wit Elements from Ein and for Ein to not vbe in the game anymore and just Hayate.It's not hard for me to understand why Tecmo put both Ein and Hayate in the same game but i would have better if it wasn't that way.

Shibuya

02-06-2007, 07:57 PM

mags

02-06-2007, 09:05 PM

Dead or alive is more about the boobies than the fighting. Thumbs down.

1/2Man1/2God

02-07-2007, 12:48 AM

at least Ein and Hayate fight different...unlike Ryu and Evil ryu.....cant wait till someone says well evil ryu had the charge super and the other one didnt......doa is like a tekken expect hella faster.....just doa is more of a if you know what they gonna do then counter...tekken is like if you know then counter what they gonna do by moves....etc....

c'mon man u can't put Ein and Ryu in the same sentence.Evil Ryu at least has a point of existing.Ein being there just for the purpose of having Hitomi relate to another character on the game is gay.DOA4 clearly wasted a space on the roster by putting the same character on twice.And for the record Tekken is way better than DOA becuase they don't have alot of characters whose moves are so similar.Leon, Nicole (Spartan) and Bayman are basically the same damn person,that's 3 characters right there wasted on the same damn moves.

Saotome Kaneda

02-07-2007, 01:49 AM

And for the record Tekken is way better than DOA becuase they don't have alot of characters whose moves are so similar.Leon, Nicole (Spartan) and Bayman are basically the same damn person,that's 3 characters right there wasted on the same damn moves.

Watch it there, because up until Tekken 4 every character had at least one clone which they shared at least 1/3rd of their movelist with.

Black Sakazaki

02-07-2007, 02:52 AM

The problem with any fighting game is the engine, not the characters.DOA's engine is just not deep when compared to Tekken , and they both fail when compared to VF.

Red Exodus

02-07-2007, 07:53 AM

It's counter-system. That and the game isn't really all that in-depth. The
character roster leaves much to be desired too, and the bosses? Christ.

1/2Man1/2God

02-07-2007, 06:26 PM

Watch it there, because up until Tekken 4 every character had at least one clone which they shared at least 1/3rd of their movelist with.

yea true but the clones were meant to be clones.Armor King,P.Jack,Kunimitsu characters like these were unlockable.They didn't put these clones there just to waist an open space.And there is no excuse for Leon,Bayman,and Nicole to have the same moves becuase they are not realated characters.All the clone characters in Tekken are realated in some way.

Saotome Kaneda

02-07-2007, 09:30 PM

yea true but the clones were meant to be clones.Armor King,P.Jack,Kunimitsu characters like these were unlockable.
Not in T1 arcade.
They didn't put these clones there just to waist an open space.
MK didn't have 20 different palette swapped ninjas to waste open space either.
And there is no excuse for Leon,Bayman,and Nicole to have the same moves becuase they are not realated characters.All the clone characters in Tekken are realated in some way.
Leon and Bayman were straight up clones in DoA2, and have slowly branched away from each other since then, not that I really care. As for the Spartan, they tried to give her a suitable power style. Not much they could do without making her set 100% original which would've meant a lot more playtesting.

As for Tekken? Explain what Kuma/Jack/Ganryu have to do with each other. Lee/Law? The Ogres are understandable. The Changs are too. And the Williams'. Same with Mishimas, even though they all have a different fundamental playstyle.

INCIDENT

02-07-2007, 09:34 PM

I'd like to see a version of Hayate that uses elements from Ein.
He does for the most part. Just like Ein had trace elements of Hayate, Hayate has some trace of Ein's old moveset. It's just that Hayate is all "ninja" now in contrast to Ein being "quasi-ninja."

HamalSharatan

02-08-2007, 07:55 PM

I won't compare it to any games because it's useless. I enjoy DOA4.

1/2Man1/2God

02-08-2007, 11:54 PM

Not in T1 arcade.

MK didn't have 20 different palette swapped ninjas to waste open space either.

Leon and Bayman were straight up clones in DoA2, and have slowly branched away from each other since then, not that I really care. As for the Spartan, they tried to give her a suitable power style. Not much they could do without making her set 100% original which would've meant a lot more playtesting.

As for Tekken? Explain what Kuma/Jack/Ganryu have to do with each other. Lee/Law? The Ogres are understandable. The Changs are too. And the Williams'. Same with Mishimas, even though they all have a different fundamental playstyle.

OK SK u kinda ruined my point here lol.What I was tryin to say though was I thought DOA4 was a really good game and although it has some really interesting characters, I would rather they made a new character to take Ein's place than to put him on the game, and also, I wouldn't have had a problem wasting the time gettin' the Spartan if she didn't have the same moves as Bayman & Leon.

face2k

02-09-2007, 02:29 AM

(I searched doa and dead or alive, so I SHOULD be okay making this)

I use to hear a bunch of hate on the series here... Can someone explain? Feel free to go into detail, I'm curious. I just bought DOA2 Hardcore today, btw.

in not saying i hate the game but i just don't like playing it

only thing i like are watching the girls haha!

Ki Shima

02-09-2007, 07:00 AM

ein lost his memory in that project epsilon, he met up with hitomi's father (before we even knew about her) and quickly mastered karate. he is memory lost hayate, his play style compared to hitomi is like 3s ryu and ken.

they need atleast 4 new characters now tho.

i didnt like doa3 cause it was waaaaaayyy too fucking sluggish, id rather play doa loose than doa tank personally.

in doa4 ein and hayate DO have similar moves that explain his karate training strengthend his ninja style, look carefully

Shin Touyokouzan

02-09-2007, 07:06 AM

in not saying i hate the game but i just don't like playing it

only thing i like are watching the girls haha!

I think alot of people would agree with you on that -_-

OmNiExiZt

02-09-2007, 07:44 AM

I've tried arguing this on these boards years ago. For you people that understand DOA and know that it's not just a counter fest, your wasting your breath. The masses are to large and no matter what you say, no one will agree with you. All I can say is that if any of you are still in doubt about weahter or not DOA can be played on a high level, is for you to find tourney match videos. You'll rarely see any countering if at all. I've been playing DOA since 2 and I've learned a lot about the game over the years. It is just to bad that they used sex appeal to sell it. As far as other games being light years ahead of it, that's bullshit. Countering is not the only way to win, infact, countering can get you killed more so then anything. Try playing DOA4 on its hardest difficult setting and see if you can counter your way through the whole game. If you can, then that means that if you played against a human opponent with the same skill level which isn't likely because that'd be impossible to duplicate. Then you wouldn't be eating fist and feet all day. The only problem I ever had with the counter system is that it leaves to much room for error. You can put a counter hold out and it would pretty much be effective for like 1.5 seconds. They should make it like VF where it has to be dead on. VF has counters, but they are extremly hard to use and time. If someone mastered these, then it would be no contest because they do just as much damage in that game to. Go to practice mode and try countering with Akira, Pai, Vanessa and Aoi and you'll see what I mean.

*ONEZ*

Shin Touyokouzan

02-09-2007, 07:57 AM

I've tried arguing this on these boards years ago. For you people that understand DOA and know that it's not just a counter fest, your wasting your breath. The masses are to large and no matter what you say, no one will agree with you. All I can say is that if any of you are still in doubt about weahter or not DOA can be played on a high level, is for you to find tourney match videos. You'll rarely see any countering if at all. I've been playing DOA since 2 and I've learned a lot about the game over the years. It is just to bad that they used sex appeal to sell it. As far as other games being light years ahead of it, that's bullshit. Countering is not the only way to win, infact, countering can get you killed more so then anything. Try playing DOA4 on its hardest difficult setting and see if you can counter your way through the whole game. If you can, then that means that if you played against a human opponent with the same, you'd be eat fist and feet all day. The only problem I ever had with the counter system is that it leaves to much room for error. You can put a counter hold out and it would pretty much be effective for like 1.5 seconds. They should make it like VF where it has to be dead on. VF has counters, but they are extremly hard to use and time. If someone mastered these, then it would be no contest because they do just as much damage in that game to. Go to practice mode and try countering with Akira, Pai, Vanessa and Aoi and you'll see what I mean.

*ONEZ*

Just to make this clear. I am well aware of doa's gameplay. Used to play with Tom brady and PL quite a bit. I dont like the game due to the fact that it really isnt that good IMO.

OmNiExiZt

02-09-2007, 08:46 AM

Just to make this clear. I am well aware of doa's gameplay. Used to play with Tom brady and PL quite a bit. I dont like the game due to the fact that it really isnt that good IMO.

And in your opinion, why is that?

*ONEZ*

Aion

02-09-2007, 11:12 AM

Some very good DOA3.1 matches from DiD: DOAMaster vs Tom Brady (http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=abysmalmonkey)

I'll upload the rest when I have time.

versus addict

02-09-2007, 11:17 AM

DOA on the Dreamcast was the shit!:rock:

1/2Man1/2God

02-09-2007, 01:38 PM

DID ANYONE SEE DOA THE MOVIE YET? I'm not sure if it has been released yet but I have seen the jap version dubbed.It sucks, it sucks hard, and it doesn't stop sucking.If you have even seen the trailer, the trailer doesn't even make the movie look good.When this hits North America please no one go see this.It's worse than Street Fighter,House of the Dead,or any other game to movie shit that has ever come out.If DOA wasn't such a fun game that movie would have ruined it for me.

Sorwah

02-09-2007, 03:02 PM

1/2Man1/2God

02-09-2007, 03:09 PM

It's being released straight to DVD anyways. Obviously they heard the word of the public and didn't bother with a theatrical release.

it makes me sad that they took a perfectly good game and turned it into that.Shit if they hadn't said who they were during the movie, the only two characters i would have recognized is Kasumi and Ayane, and Ayane only becuase her hair was purple becuase the girl that was playin her wasn't even Japanese, she was white or purto rican or something.AND TINA DIDN'T HAVE HUGE TITS nor did she wrestle, she was doing cartwheels and shit.

The Switcher

02-10-2007, 10:43 AM

Also don't forget that the creator of DoA somehow thinks his creation is better then every other fighter ever created.

hanz0

02-10-2007, 11:05 AM

Doa 1 was cool, for realz though i always liked it for the girls and polygon boobs that is all.:rock:

Saotome Kaneda

02-10-2007, 11:49 AM

If someone mastered these, then it would be no contest because they do just as much damage in that game to. Go to practice mode and try countering with Akira, Pai, Vanessa and Aoi and you'll see what I mean.

No char in VF has a straight up counter that can lead to guaranteed 33%(Hayabusa), and not a lot of them lead to combo+wall hit(technically only Pai and Aoi and only because those particular ones only yield frame advantage, not damage + frame advantage or damage + wall stun/juggle state). Go to practice mode and see what I mean.

In fact, no counter character in VF can do THAT kind of damage off a countered jab(once again, Hayabusa). I can understand losing 50+% if I'm doing a counterable unblockable in Tekken, but you can possibly lose almost that much for punching at one of the ninjas in DOA.

Mind you I'm only pointing this out. I don't wanna get into the other oddities of the DOA engine(which aren't half as bad).

jae hoon

02-10-2007, 12:37 PM

No char in VF has a straight up counter that can lead to guaranteed 33%(Hayabusa), and not a lot of them lead to combo+wall hit(technically only Pai and Aoi and only because those particular ones only yield frame advantage, not damage + frame advantage or damage + wall stun/juggle state). Go to practice mode and see what I mean.

In fact, no counter character in VF can do THAT kind of damage off a countered jab(once again, Hayabusa). I can understand losing 50+% if I'm doing a counterable unblockable in Tekken, but you can possibly lose almost that much for punching at one of the ninjas in DOA.

Mind you I'm only pointing this out. I don't wanna get into the other oddities of the DOA engine(which aren't half as bad).

If counters were the be and end all in VF Goh would be the best char in the game. Almost all his damage comes of some kind of counter, yet he is low tier. Hell I can do half life counters with Tina in DOA 4 without even trying all that hard.

Sorwah

02-11-2007, 04:55 PM

it makes me sad that they took a perfectly good game and turned it into that.Shit if they hadn't said who they were during the movie, the only two characters i would have recognized is Kasumi and Ayane, and Ayane only becuase her hair was purple becuase the girl that was playin her wasn't even Japanese, she was white or purto rican or something.AND TINA DIDN'T HAVE HUGE TITS nor did she wrestle, she was doing cartwheels and shit.

I believe Tekken is the next live-action movie in production, expect it in 2010 :rofl:

1/2Man1/2God

02-11-2007, 04:59 PM

I believe Tekken is the next live-action movie in production, expect it in 2010 :rofl:

that might not suck....HOPEFULLY.

matrix9280

02-11-2007, 06:00 PM

Tom Brady plays Dead or Alive? Cool. I bet that Peyton Manning would still kick his butt though.

XDest

02-11-2007, 06:33 PM

I've tried arguing this on these boards years ago. For you people that understand DOA and know that it's not just a counter fest, your wasting your breath. The masses are to large and no matter what you say, no one will agree with you. All I can say is that if any of you are still in doubt about weahter or not DOA can be played on a high level, is for you to find tourney match videos. You'll rarely see any countering if at all. I've been playing DOA since 2 and I've learned a lot about the game over the years. It is just to bad that they used sex appeal to sell it. As far as other games being light years ahead of it, that's bullshit. Countering is not the only way to win, infact, countering can get you killed more so then anything. Try playing DOA4 on its hardest difficult setting and see if you can counter your way through the whole game. If you can, then that means that if you played against a human opponent with the same, you'd be eat fist and feet all day. The only problem I ever had with the counter system is that it leaves to much room for error. You can put a counter hold out and it would pretty much be effective for like 1.5 seconds. They should make it like VF where it has to be dead on. VF has counters, but they are extremly hard to use and time. If someone mastered these, then it would be no contest because they do just as much damage in that game to. Go to practice mode and try countering with Akira, Pai, Vanessa and Aoi and you'll see what I mean.

*ONEZ*

Well said.

Saotome Kaneda

02-11-2007, 07:55 PM

If counters were the be and end all in VF Goh would be the best char in the game. Almost all his damage comes of some kind of counter, yet he is low tier. Hell I can do half life counters with Tina in DOA 4 without even trying all that hard.
You're thinking of Sabakis and the stuff he gets off of CH, I think. Sabakis are a whole different beast, and require a good deal of Yomi.

4649

02-11-2007, 08:01 PM

If counters were the be and end all in VF Goh would be the best char in the game. Almost all his damage comes of some kind of counter, yet he is low tier. Hell I can do half life counters with Tina in DOA 4 without even trying all that hard.

i'll say this much about the DOA system, slow escaping in DOA4 feels MUCH more natural and makes the game MUCH less broken. if you figure that yomi level 2 in DOA4 is pretty much equivalent to baiting a counter or okizeme / nitaku pressure after a counter - or in LeiFang's case backturned pressure after a counter ( although, nitaku pressure is all but nonexistant for most non-ninja characters IMHO ), then slow escape provides this game with that third yomi level of escaping or reacting to said pressure / attack baiting....the only major problem i see with the game right now is forced techs, they're just waaaaay too good for some people (Hayate). i do like how a lot of DOA4 stuff mirrors VF ( Christie = Lion.....she has his 3K kick mid, her 7PP-throw fakeout pretty much mirrors Lion's 46P+K-throw ( or is it 66P+K-throw? or do both work? i haven't played in a while ), and her 4P based string highly resembles Lion's mid-P 46P+K,PP .....i think she's also tiered similarly? ). hopefully 5 will fix some of the forced tech / Hayate abuse and finally tone the ninjas down some.....and maybe add some customizable outfit stuff, i mean, there's always a ton of unlockable outfits, why not go the VF5 / T5:DR route and just let people customize their own stuff and make it their own? Also why not rank by Kyus / Dans, I wonder?

The Granby

02-11-2007, 08:20 PM

Forced techs suck ass dude, nobody uses that shit unless they are playing a scrub. Hayate does WAY TOO MUCH dmg to sac any dmg just to do a forced tech. Hayate's juggle damage is too good to give up for something as lame as a wake up nitaku.

Slow escaping is disturbingly easy in DoA. And at the same time disturbingly pointless. In VF you need to time your struggle or you'll get your stagger extended. Requires timing skills and not just mashing skills. In doa you you just mash mash to get out of the stun. Even the it's pointless cause stuns are like +40-+75 frames of advantage. A dumbass could follow up with their fastest launcher and chances are you aren't going to SE out of it. Not to mention they could just use Jab which beats SE in almost every occasion. SE is a pointless tool in a game like DoA were you are rewarded for playing brain dead hit/throw nitaku all day long.

And DoA does not go the way of VF/T5 because the creator of DoA Tomobu Itagaki is an asshole who doesn't know how to make or play fighting games.

Tat guy

02-11-2007, 08:26 PM

The Granby

02-11-2007, 08:37 PM

No that isn't just you, that's everyone who plays 3.1 except the who idiots getting paid right now to play on TV for CGI. They could care less cause they are getting paid 10,000 to play a shitty game.

DoA3 is the most underrated 3D fighting game of all time.

caliagent#3

02-11-2007, 08:39 PM

Well it could be argued that the SE metter builds during a round so if you can SE fast enough and as much as possible you'll SE out of any stun ,but you'd be dead by this point. SE in DOA4 is only useful 80% to get off the walls.

I do wish the stun threshold was reduced to what it was in previous DOA. Even DOAU.

I've been thinking that if DOA5 is made it should follow more to 3.1 with a few changes to SS, throw properties, hitboxs, etc. But that's just me.

depending who your fighting, you won't be able to build up enough SE before the round ends. For example, being knocked over a partition by hayabusa/hayate and not having enough SE built up, you've just lost about 70% life. Other than that, every other time you're in a deep stun and trying to SE the guessing game begins....yes, guessing.

Tat guy

02-11-2007, 08:44 PM

Dude I'd play a shitty game for a free $10,000. Anyone would, and most would actually defend the game anyways. That's human nature.

But still 3.1 has it problems that can't be overlooked. There's a pretty big character difference in the tiers.Or so i've seen from match videos and playing it myself.

Bass, Hayate, Gen Fu, and Jann Lee all seem to be able to beat out the majority of the cast easily. Hayabusa, Leon, and Christie looked like they can compete, but I've rarely seen them used except when that one guy. The Mexican guy noone likes, but DOAC's owner. He used Hayabusa right and beat TB in a few tournaments.

However; with that said, if the system that made up the DOA3 series put combined with the actual good aspects of DOA4 then yes I feel DOA could be an extremely good game.

Caliagent: Yeah that's basically what I meant. SE is only good to get off the wall in DOA4 80% of the time. It has some other uses, but not enoguh. And partions are the stupidest thing I've ever seen in a FG game.

The Granby

02-11-2007, 08:50 PM

Tat guy

02-11-2007, 08:55 PM

The Granby

02-11-2007, 09:03 PM

I read alot of what people like Sorwah, Virtua Pai, EXM, Tom Brady, and some other people who seemed to really have studied the game in depth quite a bit;more so than any one really has for DOA4 with a few exceptions, but how much deeper do you think game was in your opinion?

I would know, I'm EXM.

DoA3.1 had alot of hidden depth. Alot of situations and match ups you need to learn. It wasn't just that but strategy was dependent on alot of things, stage, characters, positioning, etc.

Only DoA to have:
Useful Frame data
Side Stepping (very interesting system, I spent hours breaking it down)
Wall Combos
Fall Deaths (so much better than you think)
Lowest damage holds ever.
More natural combos than you could count on your toes/fingers (which is ALOT for doa here).

There were alot of things about 3.1 which made it great. Now a days people like to deny it or bash it cause "OMG Bass can take half life off a throw, that's broken" but they forget that it's not that easy to get a throw in 3.1 compared to 4.

But none of this matters cause 3.1 has no sponsors, no huge money pots, no support, hell the creator of DoA called doa3.1 "a mistake". Which tells you how much Itagaki knows about fighting games. Nuff said, 3.1 RIP you were a beautiful game regardless of what the world thinks.

Mixah

02-11-2007, 09:05 PM

I want to know why this thread is still alive on SRK...

Aion

02-11-2007, 10:48 PM

EXM, correct me where ever I'm wrong. Anyway, here goes.

So, let me list a couple of reasons why DOA3.1/2 is better than DOA4:

1.No retarded stun system. In DOA4, you have to work much harder to reach the maximum stun threshold in order to give you optimal juggle height. In DOA3 it's alot easier, meaning hardly as much guessing is involved and a more solid risk/reward system.

Also, one of the really annoying things about DOA4, is that you get stunned too easily, and you can stay stunned for a very annoying amount of time. Too many moves stun on normal hit, unlike in DOA3, making for more solid and less one sided gameplay.

2.The Free Step Dodge (FSD). You can nicely move in this game, it is possible to FSD attacks and even some strings; adding more to the 'control of space' element. Spacing also becomes key, and I'll touch on this more abit later on.

Thing is, in DOA4, you can't move for s**t. There is no such thing as FSD, try it, and you will get hit and put into that annoying stun situation. Also, the moves track way too well, and you will be caught up in another stun again when hit. There are SS attacks, but only for some characters, and even then they aren't as useful or as good as the FSD.

3.Wall Tech. They removed this in DOA4, pure idiocy.

4.Guaranteed launchers/wall rape. Now, if you knocked someone into a wall (including dangerzones) in DOA3, your opponent would be unable to do anything, giving you a free lextra hit, and this is where you go for a launcher, into a nice juggle. In DOA4, you can still counter even after being hit into a wall, wth?! Yes, it's more stupidity.

5.Guard crushes/frame advantage. This really is a standard for most good fighting games out there. In DOA3 you are able to guard crush, meaning that if you hit them with either a charged or strong move, you will break them out of their blocking stance, and put them at a frame disadvantage. Obviously not just guard crushes, but certain moves also left you with the upper hand, for example Jann Lee's 66k; if you're opponent tries to attack, yours will come out first, it's easy to jab them out. So what this incorporates is frame traps; playing safe; and overall more solid gameplay, so whif punishing and overall defensive play is favoured here. Well, you should all know what frame adv incorporates.

Now to DOA4. ZERO FRAME ADVANTAGE! Nothing, at most you can get +1, but that doesn't help at all. It's so retarded that there are guard crsuhes in this game, yet they do nothing. I mean, you actually take the risk of fully charging your move, hitting a guarding opponent with it; they go into the animation of being hit out of their guard, only to be compleetly safe right after?! It still resets both oppontns to a neutral state. Completely useless. This game favours offense way too much over defense, and offense=randomness, mixing it up like mad, nothing but annoying guesses and random gameplay.

6. Mix Up's. Difference between DOA3 and DOA4 here, is that you can win without going low; which is the opposite for DOA4. In DOA4 if you don't mix up on the offense with highs/ids and lows all the time, you won't get anywhere. Which leads me to my next point. But before that, I would also like to mention that, you can get punished for using low moves randomly; you can get free low throws even if a low hit connects on NH; or you can go with a crouch combo, which I'll explain later.

7. 2in1's and 3in1's. They actually had some of this in the original DOA4 (before the patch), but now they're gone. DOA3 has quite alot of these. Again meaning more solid gameplay, little to no need for high/low mix-ups. You have to play safer, or suffer the consequences; it doesn't support DOA4's reckless style of play.

8.Counter damage. Even thoughDOA3 had a 3 way counter system, unlike DOA4 and DOA2U's 4 way system...it also dealt the most reasonable amount of damage. DOA2U does insane counter damage, and DOA4 does less, but it's still too much. DOA3 counter damage is reasonable, but there are still flaws like the counter window and the fact that it was only a 3 way counter system.

Funny thing is, I played the X05 version of DOA4, and the counter frame window was boom. 11 frames it was, half that of what it is now. Why Itagaki removed this, I don't know, this was clearly a game aimed at newbies.

9.Crouch combos (props to EXM for this one). So his words exactly:
Crouch combos are strings, attacks that combo naturally on a crouching opponent.

Leon 3pp
Jann Lee 6pk
Hayabusa 3ppp
Kasumi 3pk,3pp, 3p2k
Lei 3pp (I think)
Brad 3pp
Tina {3}pp *I think

I know there are way more but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

So yes, again this implies playing safe, and proper punishment. Unlike in DOA4, where you could only punish your opponent with a weak throw.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I'll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I'd mention it anyway.

11. Priority. Priority in DOA4 is almost non-existant, and the ones that do exist, are friggin useless. This means that grapplers get screwed over; it means that the game favours speed too much, which also means that there is less need to be safe, again, reckless play.

12. Ground/Oki game. Yes, this is where we think DOA4 wins for once, you know, since you can hit grounded opponents with a variety of attacks instead just a 2p/k or 2p+k. But no, DOA4 is a retarded game...if you hit your opponent too early, your move will clip through them, and you will eat a wake-up kick and be put into a stun; and, if you attack them too late (even if they are still otg) you're move will still clip through them. Stupidly, there is an 'in-between' timelimit and it's annoying. It also doesn't help that DOA4 has 3 wake-up kicks, just more guessing and randomness...joy Rolling Eyes And it happens quite often, people being KO'd be wake-up kicks, even in high level play, and it's just stupid.

13. Speed I'll sum this up quickly. DOA3=tactical pace. DOA4=random pace. You don't have enough time to think in DOA4, the game is abit too fast.

14.Glitches When it comes to glitches, DOA4 is almost unrivalled. You will see the wierdest crap happen. Counters doing no damage; falling through stages; well, some stuff I can't even explain, so here are some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HYuPtWZkV4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UD-NWo5eWFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdPsfmC0FU8&NR
There was one more with the falling through the stage glitch, but I can't find it.

15. Music and stages. Ok these have nothing to do with gameplay, but I feel like telling you guys that DOA3's soundtrack is infinitley batter than DOA4's, and the stages are alot better. DOA3 felt wonderful, like it belonged to the arcades, like it was mad or published by Sega. It just had that old skool fg feel.

There are probably some things I'm forgetting, but I think that's enough. All in all, DOA3 is a more tactical game than DOA4; it enforces spacing, punishment, playing safe, thinking about things more than you would in DOA4. This game took skill. In DOA4, skill just comes from punishing with throws, and being random. Yes, random play wins in DOA4. DOA3 is a more defensive game, hayate is one of the only characters that is supposed to be played offensively.

jae hoon

02-11-2007, 10:55 PM

You're thinking of Sabakis and the stuff he gets off of CH, I think. Sabakis are a whole different beast, and require a good deal of Yomi.

Well in this case I mean counter hits more then anything, thats really what alot of Goh's gameplan is based off. Sabakis are a pain in the ass

The Granby

02-11-2007, 10:57 PM

A good post Aion, there are some minor inncorrect things but overall good post. KBD is the same for both DoA4 and Doa3 but in Doa4 some characters were faster without ever using it where as Doa3 for it was essential unless you just sucked at backdashing so you might as well Back Dash Walk.

Also that CC list is inncorrect and unfinished, I'll make sure to go back one day and finish it, thanx though.

Another thing about Doa3 was teching from the air was also a hell of alot harder than in Doa4, where you basically can mash Free and you'll tech.

Needless to say Doa3 was a great game.

XDest

02-12-2007, 07:45 AM

1.No retarded stun system. In DOA4, you have to work much harder to reach the maximum stun threshold in order to give you optimal juggle height. In DOA3 it's alot easier, meaning hardly as much guessing is involved and a more solid risk/reward system.

Also, one of the really annoying things about DOA4, is that you get stunned too easily, and you can stay stunned for a very annoying amount of time. Too many moves stun on normal hit, unlike in DOA3, making for more solid and less one sided gameplay.

How many times do moves actually hit in normal hit in EITHER game?!?!?? If a stun is done, it's usually on CH. The times you get a stun on normal hit are usually if you've blocked incorrectly, or are getting whiff punished and are rewarded with a stun. Then you're factoring out that the offender STILL has complete advantage to form a mindgame on you with the stun system, or go for the most efficient and launch right away.

2.The Free Step Dodge (FSD). You can nicely move in this game, it is possible to FSD attacks and even some strings; adding more to the 'control of space' element. Spacing also becomes key, and I'll touch on this more abit later on.

Thing is, in DOA4, you can't move for s**t. There is no such thing as FSD, try it, and you will get hit and put into that annoying stun situation. Also, the moves track way too well, and you will be caught up in another stun again when hit. There are SS attacks, but only for some characters, and even then they aren't as useful or as good as the FSD.

It is just as easy to KBD in DOA4, and evades just as many things. FSD was toned down, I agree, but you can't help but think - that shit in 3.1 with FSD was glitchy. It was great, but I believe it was a mistake for the better sent down from the gods. Heh.

3.Wall Tech. They removed this in DOA4, pure idiocy.
But we gained wall wakeup kicks, and wall siderolling

4.Guaranteed launchers/wall rape. Now, if you knocked someone into a wall (including dangerzones) in DOA3, your opponent would be unable to do anything, giving you a free lextra hit, and this is where you go for a launcher, into a nice juggle. In DOA4, you can still counter even after being hit into a wall, wth?! Yes, it's more stupidity.
It's more mindgames, with more reward. Team Ninja intended this 100%. The game keeps going until they're punished or in the air.

5.Guard crushes/frame advantage. This really is a standard for most good fighting games out there. In DOA3 you are able to guard crush, meaning that if you hit them with either a charged or strong move, you will break them out of their blocking stance, and put them at a frame disadvantage. Obviously not just guard crushes, but certain moves also left you with the upper hand, for example Jann Lee's 66k; if you're opponent tries to attack, yours will come out first, it's easy to jab them out. So what this incorporates is frame traps; playing safe; and overall more solid gameplay, so whif punishing and overall defensive play is favoured here. Well, you should all know what frame adv incorporates.

Now to DOA4. ZERO FRAME ADVANTAGE! Nothing, at most you can get +1, but that doesn't help at all. It's so retarded that there are guard crsuhes in this game, yet they do nothing. I mean, you actually take the risk of fully charging your move, hitting a guarding opponent with it; they go into the animation of being hit out of their guard, only to be compleetly safe right after?! It still resets both oppontns to a neutral state. Completely useless. This game favours offense way too much over defense, and offense=randomness, mixing it up like mad, nothing but annoying guesses and random gameplay.

Did anyone else look over this post?!?!? Frame Advantage = Defensive while no Frame Advantage = Offensive? Are you guys freaking mad! If you're getting advantage from BLOCKING, instead of the defender getting a disadvantage from BLOCKING, then the game becomes more OFFENSIVE. DOA4 at higher levels is indeed more defensive because every move done puts you at some kind of a frame disadvantage. I'll agree that guard crushes mean absolutely nothing in DOA4, but saying Frame Advantage gives for more defensive gameplay is ignorant. It requires one of the player to keep blocking, giving the other player a continuous offense. Isn't that exactly what offensive is in the first place?

6. Mix Up's. Difference between DOA3 and DOA4 here, is that you can win without going low; which is the opposite for DOA4. In DOA4 if you don't mix up on the offense with highs/ids and lows all the time, you won't get anywhere. Which leads me to my next point. But before that, I would also like to mention that, you can get punished for using low moves randomly; you can get free low throws even if a low hit connects on NH; or you can go with a crouch combo, which I'll explain later.

Somebody has been playing online a little too much, or has a poor defense. In DOA3 and DOA4, lows get punished if blocked. That much is obvious. I don't think arguments can be based so easily on ONLINE PLAY, or poor defense. That's just ignorance at its finest.

7. 2in1's and 3in1's. They actually had some of this in the original DOA4 (before the patch), but now they're gone. DOA3 has quite alot of these. Again meaning more solid gameplay, little to no need for high/low mix-ups. You have to play safer, or suffer the consequences; it doesn't support DOA4's reckless style of play.

They want the offensive to be a continuous mindgame. The 2-in-1's that do remain are well placed to provide a nice advantage. Some 2-in-1's still remain for Busa, Hayate, Kasumi, Jann Lee, Leon, Bayman, Christie, Gen Fu, Kokoro and Spartan.

8.Counter damage. Even thoughDOA3 had a 3 way counter system, unlike DOA4 and DOA2U's 4 way system...it also dealt the most reasonable amount of damage. DOA2U does insane counter damage, and DOA4 does less, but it's still too much. DOA3 counter damage is reasonable, but there are still flaws like the counter window and the fact that it was only a 3 way counter system.

Funny thing is, I played the X05 version of DOA4, and the counter frame window was boom. 11 frames it was, half that of what it is now. Why Itagaki removed this, I don't know, this was clearly a game aimed at newbies.

Comparing 3-point 0/22/8 and LARGEST LIFE to 4-point 0/22/8 and NORMAL LIFE. WTF, MATE?!? It should also be noted that in guard stun and hit stun, it is more difficult to counter in DOA4. It should ALSO be noted that in-stun, holds do the same damage as they did in DOA3.1, even with the more difficult 4-point system.

9.Crouch combos (props to EXM for this one). So his words exactly:
Crouch combos are strings, attacks that combo naturally on a crouching opponent.

Leon 3pp
Jann Lee 6pk
Hayabusa 3ppp
Kasumi 3pk,3pp, 3p2k
Lei 3pp (I think)
Brad 3pp
Tina {3}pp *I think

I know there are way more but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

So yes, again this implies playing safe, and proper punishment. Unlike in DOA4, where you could only punish your opponent with a weak throw.

I agree, crouch combos are great. You get no argument from me here. I would like to add that obviously, some moves that do not usually stun on normal hit, will stun a crouching opponent.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I'll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I'd mention it anyway.

It's.... exactly the same in both games.

11. Priority. Priority in DOA4 is almost non-existant, and the ones that do exist, are friggin useless. This means that grapplers get screwed over; it means that the game favours speed too much, which also means that there is less need to be safe, again, reckless play.

If speed is higher, and frame disadvantage is higher - it promotes..... BLOCKING. If your character has more safe moves and more frame advantage, there's less likely situations where you will be unsafe to be punished. In DOA4, unless you're Tina, Hitomi, Kokoro, and a few other characters, 90% of your movelist is unsafe. Therefore you need to poke correctly, or you're getting punished for ~50 points. around 1/5 of a bar on normal health. Pressure characters need to attack, grappler characters need to block/parry/punish and gain advantage. I have no clue how this actually promotes reckless play, because you do not have a priority move that will beat out a variety of moves. DOA4 is frame-based to the end.

12. Ground/Oki game. Yes, this is where we think DOA4 wins for once, you know, since you can hit grounded opponents with a variety of attacks instead just a 2p/k or 2p+k. But no, DOA4 is a retarded game...if you hit your opponent too early, your move will clip through them, and you will eat a wake-up kick and be put into a stun; and, if you attack them too late (even if they are still otg) you're move will still clip through them. Stupidly, there is an 'in-between' timelimit and it's annoying. It also doesn't help that DOA4 has 3 wake-up kicks, just more guessing and randomness...joy Rolling Eyes And it happens quite often, people being KO'd be wake-up kicks, even in high level play, and it's just stupid.

People that don't tech in DOA4 are stupid as hell. If they're in the groundstun, they'll get hit, obviously. There are also moves that force in the ground game. The only real times you might be facing wakeup kicks, are after a punishment throw where you just got something guaranteed, or the opponent hit the environment and you got extra damage on them. Now you have to evade or block a wakeup kick with execution, to gain even more damage off the opponent. Heh.

13. Speed I'll sum this up quickly. DOA3=tactical pace. DOA4=random pace. You don't have enough time to think in DOA4, the game is abit too fast.

Oh no! It's too fast for me! I don't want to train and up my reaction for it! Fast != Random. Seriously, that's one of the most idiotic arguments I've heard in my life!

14.Glitches When it comes to glitches, DOA4 is almost unrivalled. You will see the wierdest crap happen. Counters doing no damage; falling through stages; well, some stuff I can't even explain, so here are some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HYuPtWZkV4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UD-NWo5eWFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdPsfmC0FU8&NR
There was one more with the falling through the stage glitch, but I can't find it.

[b]Glitchy movement can be done quite the same in DOA3 and DOA4. As for that first one, why would somebody base an argument off of ONLINE PACKET LOSS. Seriously. We're talking about offline play with both games.... RIGHT? As for any other glitches - try finding them on a competitive game on a regular basis. That will never happen.

15. Music and stages. Ok these have nothing to do with gameplay, but I feel like telling you guys that DOA3's soundtrack is infinitley batter than DOA4's, and the stages are alot better. DOA3 felt wonderful, like it belonged to the arcades, like it was mad or published by Sega. It just had that old skool fg feel.

INSIGNIFICANT.

There are probably some things I'm forgetting, but I think that's enough. All in all, DOA3 is a more tactical game than DOA4; it enforces spacing, punishment, playing safe, thinking about things more than you would in DOA4. This game took skill. In DOA4, skill just comes from punishing with throws, and being random. Yes, random play wins in DOA4. DOA3 is a more defensive game, hayate is one of the only characters that is supposed to be played offensively.

DOA4 is a more defensive game with lack of priority or frame advantage. It ALSO enforces spacing (which is the same, pretty much.), punishment (because remember, more moves are unsafe, especially with the lack of frame advantage), and if you don't play safe, you're punished 100% of the time against a good player. I shall note again that it's more difficult in DOA4 to poke and play safe, because with most characters, they barely have any safe moves, let alone advantage on block. Random play does NOT win in DOA4, quite the opposite. You see the same players placing the same ways, unless the rules are changed. I've had a hell of a lot of experience in the game, obviously a lot more then you, and I know what works, and what doesn't. Random play gets you killed. It gets you punished, reactive string held, punished some more, etc... You want to try countering randomly? In DOA4 we play on NORMAL HEALTH, you counter randomly, you're getting half a bar taken off easily by the opponent's best throw. Seriously, this is the same shit Brady posted like 6-7 months ago when he was frustrated at losing in the game, because he had little to no experience in it in the first place. (Not to mention, last time I heard, he LIKES the game now.) Most of it wasn't true then, and most of it isn't true now. Seriously, I've played this game enough to know that most of those points are complete bullshit.

I love DOA3.1, and I love DOA4.1, for quite different reasons. But not for any of the points you stated in the first place (Except FSD and Crouch Combos, <3.)

DOA4 is quite solid. I'll explain more later.

Perfect Legend

02-12-2007, 08:02 AM

Exactly what I was going to post

BTW Jann Lee's 6pk is not a 2in1.

TheDarkPhoenix

02-12-2007, 09:01 AM

Intresting...

OmNiExiZt

02-12-2007, 09:51 AM

Wow, you guys are pumping a lot of info into this thread about DOA that most people don't know about. But since most people can't comprehend the actual skill that it takes to play this game because they are playing against there scrub friends most of the time. They'll never acknowledge that this game has any depth. All they'll ever see is the few ppp or ppkk combos that they know and how to use middle counters all day to defeat their afermentioned scrub friend. I had some friends that thought DOA was a simple game since they mostly played amongst themselves. I don't know if they were Tekken/VF fanboys or what. But I showed them that DOA is a very deep 3D fighters. I didn't even have to do anything overly complicated. I just used high standing attacks and they couldn't figure out why they couldn't counter any of my attacks. One of my favorite things about DOA is that you had the ability to cancel any of your attacks with the guard button, that makes for some pretty interesting tactics.

*ONEZ*

Aion

02-12-2007, 10:06 AM

Thanks for the corrections Xdest and EXM. Though Xdest, I think you misunderstood some things. Either way, I still don't support DOA4's philosophy of play. Some points I am wrong, yes, which is why I asked to be corrected, but you also seem to take some parts where I am right, and say "Well TN intended for this".

I'll read your post in a more in-depth manner and give you a reply sometime later.

The Granby

02-12-2007, 10:19 AM

Yo Xdest, chill out. Most of the stuff you point out is personal preference between players or I already corrected. You might like percentage based DoA4, but I personally like the solid fighting game mechanic behind DoA3. Aion is of the same opinion as me, slide, and probably 90% of the people who tried DoA4. They found the system flaky and weren't interested.

There is simply not much to find in DoA4. Especially with the removal of most natural combos, and I'm talking about the whole host of them and not this PP, PK, P6P trash. Hate to break it to ya but DoA3 hold damage was STILL bad, including Hayabusa. DoA4 holds do more damage overall than DoA3 holds, what does that tell you? No game should have 90+ dmg holds, NO GAME. One action/risk should not do more damage than a whole flow chart (attacking) of actions and risks.

Just because a game has frame advantage does not mean it will be an offensive game, if you played 3.1 with somebody who knew what he was doing you'd understand what I'm saying. Not like it matters cause 3.1 is pretty much dead.

And if something ain't done soon, DoA4 is gonna see it in the graveyard soon.

This argument is over done and pointless cause DoA3.1 is game that 99% of the population has never played (or in your case played competitively) and NEVER WILL PLAY. DoA 4 is here, flaky as I think it is, and it's playable at least (unlike 2U). Last thing we need is more arguments throwing unsupported opinions on both sides.

Sorwah

02-12-2007, 10:27 AM

But none of this matters cause 3.1 has no sponsors, no huge money pots, no support, hell the creator of DoA called doa3.1 "a mistake". Which tells you how much Itagaki knows about fighting games. Nuff said, 3.1 RIP you were a beautiful game regardless of what the world thinks.

Actually, that's wrong. He said the FSD in 3.1 was a mistake, the only reason he is saying that though is because the cartwheel was broken. He doesn't want to get in a trap saying that he loved the FSD in 3.1 but then be told that it was broken. The SS moves and the Wall teching are all based off of the FSD system. Changing the FSD system changes the evasion of those other two. And I find 3.1's FSD system as glitchy as VF4e when I do a step-evade-attack and end up tackling air behind the person, in other words I don't see it as glitchy. Even the so called "You can do 88P with Gen Fu and hit the person in his back", yes, when someone does a forward stepping attack, just like DOA4.

Here's the problem with talking 3.1 to Itagaki, 1) He doesn't play fighting games 2) He was promoting his upcoming DOA4 where he had spent many many hours working on. 3) Telling him something that was good in 3 that was removed in 4 is a dis to him.

A year before DOA4 came out Itagaki was interviewed talking about how he wants to make the most hardcore game ever. Then as it gets closer to release you can see him talking about how "All Fighting games are, are macros where you just have to hit one move and you win. I don't want that in my game" (sorta paraphrasing, i'll go get the exact quote later) He doesn't play fighting games competitively, he just makes a game then moves on to the next.

See, this is why talking to him serves really no purpose because he's a developer. He'll spin the story to serve his latest game. He gets no benefit out of someone buying a game that isn't in production any more. For example, I said that there are many people who enjoy the competitive play in DOA3. What did he say to me?

He told me he made DOA3 for single-play. Yeah. Sure. That's why you would have a national tournament for $5000. That's why there are no unlockables, based on unlockables alone this single player game would be over in 1 hour. That's why you bothered to tone down the cartwheel. That's why you bothered to change the system so fucking much over doa2. If it were single-play you'd just slap doa2 on with new stages and more unlockable costumes and cg art.

And for those who may give me gripe that DOA2U had a lot of unlockables for not being a single-player game with XBL: DOA2 was released in 1999 with 4 costumes per character with Kasumi and Ayane with 5. DOA2U was the same fighting system, so they didn't need to worry about tweaking/balancing the game. All they had to do was add some extras, XBL, and slope/ceiling throws and tweak the stages.

Did anyone know that no one in Japan or Europe felt Bass was top 2? No, it was USA. It was because of our damn vids of how to break the wake-up game with Hayate, the wall combos, and the Bass pickup that the changes came to DOA4. Surprisingly, Itagaki hadn't seen our vids until right after X06 when a member of Tecmo showed the stuff to him. (How Bass' pickup was still guaranteed and +11 and the build had a followup to the Buffalo horn that guard broke 2i1 into a hit throw). The pick-up alone was the reason he wanted not guaranteed ground attacks (which is why 4.2 is rumored to remove untechables) and being able to dh out of guard break. That's why most of the changes had occured post X06. What did Itagaki do to the wake-up: Well if you add a third kick people can't jump over it. It doesn't matter about having another option off wake-up, if you dh low you dodge the high and hit the low, if you dh mid you can get hit by the high or the low. it's still the same 50/50 wake-up kick game as DOA3. Then you have the wall-tech game.

In DOA3, if you teched off the wall, that was it, just like DOA2 you couldn't attack off your tech. Because of the FSD system, if the player who teched went to the background and the player who attacked went into the foreground (or just standing at neutral) both were in neutral. However, if both went the same way one could still provide pressure against the wall, typically it was most advisable to do a throw since most players would block after a tech. For video of this (my Jann Lee isn't that great and this was 2 years ago) check out 02:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q42vrSRtzN0

DOA3 had it's problems, but so does DOA4. I enjoy playing both games. I do not like how it's a constant fast-paced mix-up. That's my preference, it doesn't matter really. 3.1 is six-feet under and 4 is what is currently played.

Oh and to Tatguy who said MASTER is the owner of DOAC. He's not, he's just the buddy-buddy with the owner.

Slide

02-12-2007, 10:47 AM

Aion

02-12-2007, 12:13 PM

1.No retarded stun system. In DOA4, you have to work much harder to reach the maximum stun threshold in order to give you optimal juggle height. In DOA3 it's alot easier, meaning hardly as much guessing is involved and a more solid risk/reward system.

Also, one of the really annoying things about DOA4, is that you get stunned too easily, and you can stay stunned for a very annoying amount of time. Too many moves stun on normal hit, unlike in DOA3, making for more solid and less one sided gameplay.

How many times do moves actually hit in normal hit in EITHER game?!?!?? If a stun is done, it's usually on CH. The times you get a stun on normal hit are usually if you've blocked incorrectly, or are getting whiff punished and are rewarded with a stun. Then you're factoring out that the offender STILL has complete advantage to form a mindgame on you with the stun system, or go for the most efficient and launch right away.

You are wrong here, we are not factoring possibilities or whatever, we are using facts. Fact-- DOA4 has more attacks that stun on neutral than DOA3. Also, I've watched DOA3.1 matches where the players very often landed neutral hits; these hits like Jann Lee's p,p,2k,k--the low kick would hit on neutral but that wasn't the point..the point was that it was a safe string which granted you an advantage over the opponent...a tech trap

Secondly, efficiency is more valid in DOA3. DOA4's annoyingly large stun threshhold makes for more risky play, and reuiqres too many ensuing stuns to actually achieve decent launch height.

Also, "If a stun is done, it's usually on CH."--this is applying to DOA4, so what does that say about the game? Either the players aren't playing solidly, or the game is just way too offensive and revolves around a retarded stun system. DOA4's stun system does not contribute to solid play, it contributes to a random nature. You see, if someone is in a stun, how do you keep them from guessing right and countering? By NOT following an orthodox pattern and being random in your mix-ups. Anopther reason of why it's random, is the fact that your opponent can counter out of stuns...now, say he goes for a random counter and to constitute with your unorthodox mix-ups, and succeeds with the counter, what do you call that? Random play. Sure, you may bait counters and go with a throw, but that again is just another option (other than going, high/low/mid with your attacks) given to the offender, and that too can be countered (not DH'd). So with such a range of options, NONE OF WHICH ARE GUARANTEED; once someone is in a stun, this game becomes rock, paper, scissors AND fire.

It is so retarded, because at the same time, you can be rewarded too easily and cursed too easily.

2.The Free Step Dodge (FSD). You can nicely move in this game, it is possible to FSD attacks and even some strings; adding more to the 'control of space' element. Spacing also becomes key, and I'll touch on this more abit later on.

Thing is, in DOA4, you can't move for s**t. There is no such thing as FSD, try it, and you will get hit and put into that annoying stun situation. Also, the moves track way too well, and you will be caught up in another stun again when hit. There are SS attacks, but only for some characters, and even then they aren't as useful or as good as the FSD.

It is just as easy to KBD in DOA4, and evades just as many things. FSD was toned down, I agree, but you can't help but think - that shit in 3.1 with FSD was glitchy. It was great, but I believe it was a mistake for the better sent down from the gods. Heh.

Err, FSD was fixed completely in DOA3.2. And something is better than nothing. How can you call your game a 3D fighter if you can't even move properly? Why have such innovative stages if you can't even use them to your advantage because it's so hard to move and position yourself?

3.Wall Tech. They removed this in DOA4, pure idiocy.
But we gained wall wakeup kicks, and wall siderolling

And? That only increases the number of random situations. Also, why remove it when they could've just left it and added the extras?

4.Guaranteed launchers/wall rape. Now, if you knocked someone into a wall (including dangerzones) in DOA3, your opponent would be unable to do anything, giving you a free lextra hit, and this is where you go for a launcher, into a nice juggle. In DOA4, you can still counter even after being hit into a wall, wth?! Yes, it's more stupidity.
It's more mindgames, with more reward. Team Ninja intended this 100%. The game keeps going until they're punished or in the air.

TN intended this, so does that mean it's a good thing? They're just removing the number of gauranteed situations; they're just lessening the punishment for being unsafe and stupid. If someone got you into a wall, they should be rewarded for it, and you should be punished. It seems like DOA's answer to everything is "Just counter!". Shit, that should be Itagaki's new motto. "You in a pickle of a situation? You been outplayed and don't know what to do? Just counter!" It's stupid, someone could work hard to put you into a stun, reach the maximum thresh hold, only to eat a TON of damage from a counter when he tries to launch his/her opponent.

5.Guard crushes/frame advantage. This really is a standard for most good fighting games out there. In DOA3 you are able to guard crush, meaning that if you hit them with either a charged or strong move, you will break them out of their blocking stance, and put them at a frame disadvantage. Obviously not just guard crushes, but certain moves also left you with the upper hand, for example Jann Lee's 66k; if you're opponent tries to attack, yours will come out first, it's easy to jab them out. So what this incorporates is frame traps; playing safe; and overall more solid gameplay, so whif punishing and overall defensive play is favoured here. Well, you should all know what frame adv incorporates.

Now to DOA4. ZERO FRAME ADVANTAGE! Nothing, at most you can get +1, but that doesn't help at all. It's so retarded that there are guard crsuhes in this game, yet they do nothing. I mean, you actually take the risk of fully charging your move, hitting a guarding opponent with it; they go into the animation of being hit out of their guard, only to be compleetly safe right after?! It still resets both oppontns to a neutral state. Completely useless. This game favours offense way too much over defense, and offense=randomness, mixing it up like mad, nothing but annoying guesses and random gameplay.

Did anyone else look over this post?!?!? Frame Advantage = Defensive while no Frame Advantage = Offensive? Are you guys freaking mad! If you're getting advantage from BLOCKING, instead of the defender getting a disadvantage from BLOCKING, then the game becomes more OFFENSIVE. DOA4 at higher levels is indeed more defensive because every move done puts you at some kind of a frame disadvantage. I'll agree that guard crushes mean absolutely nothing in DOA4, but saying Frame Advantage gives for more defensive gameplay is ignorant. It requires one of the player to keep blocking, giving the other player a continuous offense. Isn't that exactly what offensive is in the first place?

You misunderstood horribly--actually you just made up things. I never said what you said in that first sentence of yours; that was just the general view of DOA3 being a more defensive game. So about half of your post is pretty much irrelevant.

Here's how it is. In DOA3, you are only offensive with safe attacks on a blocking opponent. Safe offense is a form of defense, as it put's you in a defensive advantage at the end of the string...at the ned of the string, YOU ARE SAFE and may switch to defense if you want, a defense with more options than the former defender mind you (as your moves can beat out their's)

DOA3.1 is defensive because you wait for a whiff to punish severely. You can't be offnesive because there is no retarded stun system, and because you will be predictable. This is why high level players tend to BLOCK after a safe string. It's a battle of mind; you are trading blows until one of you makes a mistake...that's the prinicple, and it can be built on, with baiting, positioning, 50/50's etc.

Not to say DOA4 isn't defensive, but that game is all about playing defensive and punshing with lame throws, instead of attacks. DOA3 is also defensive because of it's more methodical pace...it's not as fast as DOA4. DOA4 is offensive because of it's stun system; fast paced, and even the lack of control of space makes it more offensive...I hope you can see how.

6. Mix Up's. Difference between DOA3 and DOA4 here, is that you can win without going low; which is the opposite for DOA4. In DOA4 if you don't mix up on the offense with highs/ids and lows all the time, you won't get anywhere. Which leads me to my next point. But before that, I would also like to mention that, you can get punished for using low moves randomly; you can get free low throws even if a low hit connects on NH; or you can go with a crouch combo, which I'll explain later.

Somebody has been playing online a little too much, or has a poor defense. In DOA3 and DOA4, lows get punished if blocked. That much is obvious. I don't think arguments can be based so easily on ONLINE PLAY, or poor defense. That's just ignorance at its finest.

I didn't say on block, I said on NH. But I'm probably wrong here, as i think Tina and hayate's 1p can be low thrown on NH.

7. 2in1's and 3in1's. They actually had some of this in the original DOA4 (before the patch), but now they're gone. DOA3 has quite alot of these. Again meaning more solid gameplay, little to no need for high/low mix-ups. You have to play safer, or suffer the consequences; it doesn't support DOA4's reckless style of play.

They want the offensive to be a continuous mindgame. The 2-in-1's that do remain are well placed to provide a nice advantage. Some 2-in-1's still remain for Busa, Hayate, Kasumi, Jann Lee, Leon, Bayman, Christie, Gen Fu, Kokoro and Spartan.

What 2-in-1's exist in DOA4 that weren't taken out in the first patch? either way, there are alot less of them, and that just enforces going for lame height launchers right off the bat, or again, mixing up. All the useful ones I remember were taken out. Then again, I may be wrong here, I haven't played this game for a year, let alone had proper offline comp with it. Either way, DOA4 was still stripped of some depth.

8.Counter damage. Even thoughDOA3 had a 3 way counter system, unlike DOA4 and DOA2U's 4 way system...it also dealt the most reasonable amount of damage. DOA2U does insane counter damage, and DOA4 does less, but it's still too much. DOA3 counter damage is reasonable, but there are still flaws like the counter window and the fact that it was only a 3 way counter system.

Funny thing is, I played the X05 version of DOA4, and the counter frame window was boom. 11 frames it was, half that of what it is now. Why Itagaki removed this, I don't know, this was clearly a game aimed at newbies.

Comparing 3-point 0/22/8 and LARGEST LIFE to 4-point 0/22/8 and NORMAL LIFE. WTF, MATE?!? It should also be noted that in guard stun and hit stun, it is more difficult to counter in DOA4. It should ALSO be noted that in-stun, holds do the same damage as they did in DOA3.1, even with the more difficult 4-point system.

What? Sorry, didn't understand that first statement properly, be abit more clear about it--I just hope it isn't another one of your assumptions.

As for the rest. I never knew it is more difficult to counter out of a stun in DOA4, and I don't know if I should believe it. That would however, be irrlevant if true though, as it makes little difference; AND there's the fact that if you time your counter correctly, you can block afterwards :confused:

I know about that last statement; but overall, DOA4 counters do more damage, that was my point, and it still stands--you're just slimming down the overall picture for your convenience. I give DOA4 props for the 4point system, and I think everyone does.

9.Crouch combos (props to EXM for this one). So his words exactly:
Crouch combos are strings, attacks that combo naturally on a crouching opponent.

Leon 3pp
Jann Lee 6pk
Hayabusa 3ppp
Kasumi 3pk,3pp, 3p2k
Lei 3pp (I think)
Brad 3pp
Tina {3}pp *I think

I know there are way more but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

So yes, again this implies playing safe, and proper punishment. Unlike in DOA4, where you could only punish your opponent with a weak throw.

I agree, crouch combos are great. You get no argument from me here. I would like to add that obviously, some moves that do not usually stun on normal hit, will stun a crouching opponent.

EXM corrected me (or rather himself) on some of those, so yeah.

10.Fuzzy guarding. (again props to EXM for jogging my memory on this one) So again, I'll quote him:

Fuzzy guarding is the act of crouch dashing then canceling CD with Guard to duck a throw and block a mid at seemingly the same time.

Now this is also in DOA4, but because DOA3 just has more fluid movement (you can Korean backdash abit better ec), and and reinforces spacing, pnushiment and playing safe alot more. I thought I'd mention it anyway.

It's.... exactly the same in both games.[/QUOTE]

That was a retarded statement by me, my bad.

11. Priority. Priority in DOA4 is almost non-existant, and the ones that do exist, are friggin useless. This means that grapplers get screwed over; it means that the game favours speed too much, which also means that there is less need to be safe, again, reckless play.

If speed is higher, and frame disadvantage is higher - it promotes..... BLOCKING. If your character has more safe moves and more frame advantage, there's less likely situations where you will be unsafe to be punished. In DOA4, unless you're Tina, Hitomi, Kokoro, and a few other characters, 90% of your movelist is unsafe. Therefore you need to poke correctly, or you're getting punished for ~50 points. around 1/5 of a bar on normal health. Pressure characters need to attack, grappler characters need to block/parry/punish and gain advantage. I have no clue how this actually promotes reckless play, because you do not have a priority move that will beat out a variety of moves. DOA4 is frame-based to the end.

I think you're wrong here, or missing the point (and I already know all of what you said). Priority adds for more situational gameplay. It adds more depth and options for the offender, and limits what the defender can do. It forces defenders into situations which are more favourable for the offender; this is something incorporated in most fighting games, and constitutes to the CONTROLLING OF PACE. Putting people where you want them, that's something the offender should be able to do...shutting down options; forcing others; putting the flow onto your hands.

In DOA4, the problem with speed over priority, is evident...more CH's. This is because both players are now trying to attack faster than another, constituting reckless play. Also, with priority, yu can react to a move, with another move...something important. Regardless, stripping depth instead of building on it is not a good thing.

12. Ground/Oki game. Yes, this is where we think DOA4 wins for once, you know, since you can hit grounded opponents with a variety of attacks instead just a 2p/k or 2p+k. But no, DOA4 is a retarded game...if you hit your opponent too early, your move will clip through them, and you will eat a wake-up kick and be put into a stun; and, if you attack them too late (even if they are still otg) you're move will still clip through them. Stupidly, there is an 'in-between' timelimit and it's annoying. It also doesn't help that DOA4 has 3 wake-up kicks, just more guessing and randomness...joy Rolling Eyes And it happens quite often, people being KO'd be wake-up kicks, even in high level play, and it's just stupid.

People that don't tech in DOA4 are stupid as hell. If they're in the groundstun, they'll get hit, obviously. There are also moves that force in the ground game. The only real times you might be facing wakeup kicks, are after a punishment throw where you just got something guaranteed, or the opponent hit the environment and you got extra damage on them. Now you have to evade or block a wakeup kick with execution, to gain even more damage off the opponent. Heh.

You seem to have ignored the part where I mentioned how your attacks would clip through opponents. There are also advantages to staying on the grou