Is XvSF Competitively Playable?

[Dasrik]

Its not just that sure theres big combos in almost every fighting game, but how effective are they compared to XvSF? I learned geifs infinte and cyc's in about 5min. It wasnt even hard at all and I thought wow this is like my 1st time playing this and I already learn 2 infinits in 5 min. And I used them when I went to the arcades, then I thought why im I playing this game and went back to other fighting games.
Headcrushes post.

[Khiempossible]

Using your example of a character coming back with 1 pixel of health, and then stating that "skill level of the players determines the winner of the match", we can invision a match where player 1 totally outsmarts player 2 in every way possible, bringing him down to 1 pixel of health. Player 1 makes no mistakes of any sort. Then, player 1 makes only two mistakes, each of them leading to him being infinited, costing him the match. In this case, the skill level of player 2 is likely not better than player 1, perhaps only in combo execution but nothing else.

So yeah, your comment doesn't make much sense in regards to this particular game.

had to quote this, because it was my man right here

I'm Middlekingpin

that made one of the most killer 1pixel comebacks I've ever seen. Up gainst LMX's cyke, they're both at one character and Middlekingpin is on low life dodging s.fierce xx jab and strong optic blasts, mega optic blasts and pure chipping tactics left and fucking right (with charlie no less) and squeezes out a win on one pixel. think street fighter vs. mortal kombat 2 during the scorpion throwing spears at ryu segment. It's not that Middle Kingpin has no skill (he regularly comes 5th in all my XvSF events), and pulled an infinite with one random lucky hit, and more that he struggled against a solid Cyke for a good 20 seconds doing nothing but perfect play against flawless play to legitimately make the greatest comeback I've ever seen.

Man, Jon, I WILL always remember that match. I wish we had taped it.

If ya'll is curious, Martin makes a 1 character comeback right here in the last game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzjsDkQWppA WITHOUT INFINTES.


The fact that fun play and tournament play are very different in the minds of some people is a bad thing. This is true of all games to some point, but much more so in XSF.

Again, in ST if you watch a Boxer casual match and a tournament match you are going to see basically the same thing. If you watch a character like Ken you may see something a bit different like more attempts at combo into super, but it is still mostly the same.

A lot of XSF players believe that tournament-style XSF is kind of boring. Note that *I* am not the one saying that, if you read XSF threads this is a fairly common viewpoint.

It doesn't say good things about a game that you have to choose between playing fun and playing to win. Winning is supposed to be fun.

(This is where Sirlin comes in and makes fun of people who play for fun - come on Sirlin where are you!)

The fact is in XSF when Wolvy has you in a corner infinite you sit there and he does the same couple moves over and over again. Kind of boring. It is a lot more fun to try some crazy combo but why bother when the most basic, simple combo is the most effective one?

In some games a crazy combo may be hard but do more damage. Guile low short into super is going to do more than low strong -> flash kick. Is it worth it? Depends on how good you are at it. In XSF if it *never* worth it do a crazy combo when a simple infinite would suffice.

The game has a very open, fun combo system but many of the combos end up being irrelevant in serious play.

Again, in *any* game the further away the "fun" style is from the tournament style the worse the game is. CVS2 in the low-fierce era? Not that good. It says bad things about a game that fun and serious play are somewhat mutually exclusive.

---

This is what most tournament complaints are founded on. It is why people complain about Chun low forward -> super in 3s, why people complain about lack of character diversity, about VCs in A3 or low firece in CVS2 or Nak in CVS1. People start to complain when tournament play diverges from the type of play people find fun. All thsoe complaints amount to the same thing.

A really good tournament game is played in the same style as fun play, only at higher skill levels.



Oh, XSF is certainly about more than learning how to infinite. I can beat plenty of Cyclops/Wolvy people with my Bison/Gambit team. (not good people mind you, but people who can do infinites) I don't think anyone was bragging, I'm just pointing out the difference between "fun" and serious play.

A lot of games are degenerate at high levels, but it is hard to put into words exactly what that means. I think my definition is pretty good - the further the game is from the "fun" gameplay when played seriously the more degenerate it is. This can include character choice, tactics, specific moves, etc.

Again I think the holy grail of a tournament-worthy game is that it looks as fun and crazy and interesting as a casual game, with the same moves and characters, only played much better.

Note that this is a problem in basketball as well these days, part of the reason it isn't as popular as it used to be. People look at fun games, their own pick-up games and the pro games looks pretty boring in comparison. Why do people like watching the Suns? Because the Suns play a casual style, although far better than typical casual players.



I don't think many people are saying that. That is true in ST as well. Get knocked over by a low roundhouse then get crossed up as you get up and it is game over. (Ok, to be fair, some people *are* saying that)

"First to make a big mistake loses" is perfectly fine with me. "First to make a big mistake loses after sitting in the corner for 30 seconds being juggled by the same 3 moves over and over again" is less fine.


waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait.

are you saying that 3s, a3, cvs2, cvs1 and marvel aren't competitive?

didn't reset take 3rd at evo one year doing none other than what he does best? resetting?

Isn't ST just as bad? I made half a dozen mistakes and found myself in the corner, now I eat fireball chip damage or uppercut at my choosing until the end of the round? that's fun?

oops I threw a fireball predictably and now I'm dizzied -> 90% is fun?

I'm confused man.

Dont' get me wrong, I love SF2 as much as you do, but I don't see how SF2 is any less competitive or more fun than XvSF.

oops I don't know how to deal with Vega dive claws, oops I don't know how to get out of fireball traps, oops I don't know how to deal with tick throws. Oops I got hit by infinite I guess SF2 sucks just as much as XvSF.


osagat and/or vega are softbanned in japan, why? because they're NOT fun to play against. japs hate that shit. I hate that shit, does it mean I'm not going to be a) pick them b) be prepared to deal with them, come a tournament? No.

i'd say infinites are in that same boat.

Seriously, I get hit by infinites all the time. I'm not even close to the level that the rest of my ottawa cats are at, but look, I'm crap and I can still see the beauty/depth/skill involved in XvSF. I guess if you don't have the comp for the game it's tough to appreciate and too easy to shit on, because you got beasted by some impossible to land Zangief infinite.

Seriously, who gets hit by that shit?

scrubs that's what.

[margalis]

It's hard to make a good argument when you aren't even responding to wrote I wrote.

are you saying that 3s, a3, cvs2, cvs1 and marvel aren't competitive?


I'm saying that when people complain about 3S, A3, CVS2, CVS1 and MVC2 although the complaints are different the underlying problem is the same - the game at high levels breaks down and stops resembling the game people know and love.

Out of the list I mentioned 3S and CVS2 low fierce era are pretty bad. I'm not too familiar with the CVS1 tournament scene so I can't comment on that too much. MVC2 is fine, CVS2 is fine in general, A3 is kind of borderline. Again this is true of all games to some extent, it is a question of degree.

Competitive is the wrong word. Any 2 player vs. game is competitive unless it has an "I Win" button. That doesn't make it a good tournament game.


[quoet]
Isn't ST just as bad? I made half a dozen mistakes and found myself in the corner, now I eat fireball chip damage or uppercut at my choosing until the end of the round? that's fun?
[/quote]

That is fun for ST players. Seriously. Yeah it is frustrating but it is also a fun challenge. If a bunch of ST players were saying "man, high level ST is just fireball traps!" then we might have a problem - I've never heard anyone say that! Fireball traps are the bane of intermediate players.


oops I threw a fireball predictably and now I'm dizzied -> 90% is fun?


I specifically said in my post that "first big mistake loses" is fine. I have no problem with that.



osagat and/or vega are softbanned in japan, why? because they're NOT fun to play against. japs hate that shit. I hate that shit, does it mean I'm not going to be a) pick them b) be prepared to deal with them, come a tournament? No.

i'd say infinites are in that same boat.


O. Sagat and Claw are not soft-banned in the US. Are you saying you think infinites should be soft-banned? Or that infinites are not fun to play against?

Personally I don't think O. Sagat or Claw should be soft-banned, I don't even think those are the two best characters in ST and I don't think off the wall over and over again is a dominate strategy.

It sounds to me that you are calling O. Sagat, Claw and inifinites all 'cheesy' to some degree.

You say yourself that infinites are not fun to play against, but in tournaments you have to be prepared for them and be prepared to use them. Aren't you making my point for me?

If ST was all O. Sagat and Claw and people hated those matchups then ST wouldn't be a good tournament game. But ST isn't all O. Sagat and Claw and a lots of people don't mind playing against them.

Going to a tournament isn't supposed to be work, like "well time to pack away all my neat tricks and prepare for boring repitition from everyone!"

---

Again, you are proving my point that XSF has two separate groups of players: Those that feel like fun play and tournament play are somewhat mutually exclusive and those that don't.

Most people really don't find repetitive 3-move infinites very fun, most players avoid that sort of play in casual but that is what you see in tournaments when people really care who wins. That's why I think XSF is not a good tournament game - it is a lot more fun to watch and to play when people are a little bit looser.

Again my problem is not the damage, my problem is not "one bad mistake kills you." My problem is that a lot of XSF players don't really enjoy super-serious play because the game at really high levels is not that similar to what people find fun in everyday play. Same reason people roll their eyes at 3S tournaments - everyone has fun playing 3S at home with their crazy characters and strats then they watch a tournament dominated by two moves.

[Khiempossible]

My problem is that a lot of XSF players don't really enjoy super-serious play because the game at really high levels is not that similar to what people find fun in everyday play. Same reason people roll their eyes at 3S tournaments - everyone has fun playing 3S at home with their crazy characters and strats then they watch a tournament dominated by two moves.

so let me get this straight

you don't like xvsf cause nobody uses pretty combos in high level play?

wow are you the biggest scrub.

do you think anybody cares to see the same old low forward supers when they watch 3s videos? no, they want the mind games, the "how did he set up his low forward super" part.

that is what makes 3s, 3s. the setup, the mind game, the thinking, the skill, the parries that is what makes 3s fun to play and watch at high levels. same goes for A3, and Marvel and every other game with some amount of cheese. all the games you've mentioned are highly competitive and tournament worthy andl by your own logic and criteria, so is XvSF. Unless for some reason you don't believe 3s or A3 or anything else is tournament worthy, in which case your ideas are just whack, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you.

what's the difference between 100% damage combos and infinites? nothing but how pretty they are, and that's the difference between casual and tournament play. The game itself doesn't change any.

So this two groups of players shit is all garbage, cause the same people who don't play infinites in casuals are the same people who play XvSF competitively. Just like in 3s, when you're at home, you'll try and break out the oro yagou dama unblockable infinite, but when it comes to tournament time you're gonna pick that same ken/chun/yun/tengu stone whatever and play 3s competitively

how is that at all different from XvSF?

The most popular fighting game in america is not tournament worthy I guess.

[jreinert13]

The best part about Xmen vs SF is that everyone feels like they have a chance to win. *Going back to MiddleKingpin's poker analogy...
It's just like poker in a sense that I have a decent chance(please don't interpret this as anything close to likely) of beating a player that's much better than me (as opposed to other Capcom games where I would have next to none).
factor this in with everyone's need for personal glory and you have this illusion of being better or doing better than you really are. It definetly adds to the competitiveness of the game.
I'm not only talking about infinites either (is that all you guys have?).

my favorite part is the fact I can actually compete against likely some of the best players in the world using SF skills. That's probably why I love this vs. game way more than any other.

[KrassHole]

might as well just ignore margalis' posts, theyre full of hyprocrisy and random hate for no reason at all.

[Shiro_420]

might as well just ignore margalis' posts, theyre full of hyprocrisy and random hate for no reason at all.

Co-sign!!

[margalis]

all the games you've mentioned are highly competitive and tournament worthy andl by your own logic and criteria, so is XvSF. Unless for some reason you don't believe 3s or A3 or anything else is tournament worthy, in which case your ideas are just whack, and I'm not going to even bother arguing with you.


3S is not a good tournament game. I'm certainly not alone in thinking that. A3 is a bad tournament game and apparently most people agree since there are no tournaments for it.


what's the difference between 100% damage combos and infinites?


Why does it matter? Do you realize I've said at least twice now that "first to make a mistake loses" is not a problem? ]I'm not complaining about losing to one mistake. I even gave a specific example of how the same things happens in ST.

Oh no, I got hit by a low roundhouse then didn't block a crossup and died - ST SUCKS!!!

Lol. Why bother responding when you can't even read what I wrote? Serious question. That isn't my argument at all. First big mistake loses is fine with me.



The most popular fighting game in america is not tournament worthy I guess.

No, the newest Mortal Kombat isn't tournament worthy. You disagree?

MK is proof that just because a game is popular doesn't mean it is a good tournament game. 3S is popular (although not even close to the 'most popular fighting game') in spite of how it plays in tournaments, not because of it.

Popularity has nothing to do tournament worthiness. If you disagree I suppose you are advocating that Mortal Kombat, DOA, Fight Night and Smackdown vs. Raw should be the new Evo lineup?

You know, because those games are all so popular, surely they just HAVE to be great tournament games right?

Undertaker vs. Batista in the Evo2k8 finals - book it!
---

I'll say it again, the farther the tournament game is from the casual game the worse the game is for tournaments. I haven't seen you agree or disagree with that, or suggest what other criteria should be used. Tournament XSF looks like boring crud, as does tournament 3S and CVS2 low-fierce era.

Compare that to GG. I'm not a fan of GG but GG tournament play is pretty exciting and dynamic, just like it is in casual play. (With the exception of some Sol-dominance courtesy of Japan)

"Hey man, I run other plays in practice, but come game day I'm all bidness - screen passes every down!" Exciting!

Now replace "screen passes" with "Chun low forward->super" and you can see why 3S isn't so great. Or "crazy combos" with "3 move infinite."

A game that discourages you from using a variety of strats, characters or moves when played seriously is not a good game. That is what you call degenerate gameplay.

You can disagree, but at least I am defining my terms. The fact is, every 2 player vs. game that doesn't rely on pure luck is 'competitive' in some sense. Hey guys - is Karate Champ competitively playable?

I'm defining what I consider a good competitive game to be, and XSF doesn't meet that criteria.

Don't ask a question if you can't stomach the answer. You made this thread just so everyone could agree with you?

If your idea of a 'competitively playable' game is just a game that takes some skill then every fighting game ever made qualifies.

[Shiro_420]

Well its a goodthing we play xvsf and could really give a shit what youthink right =D

[F.Y.C.N.]

3S is not a good tournament game. I'm certainly not alone in thinking that. A3 is a bad tournament game and apparently most people agree since there are no tournaments for it.

whaaaaaaaaaaa?

[margalis]

whaaaaaaaaaaa?
then what the fuck makes for a good tourney game?

Try reading my post(s) for the answer smart guy.



Well its a goodthing we play xvsf and could really give a shit what youthink right =D


If you don't give a shit what people think, don't make a thread asking what they think.:wink:

[Shiro_420]

whaaaaaaaaaaa?


then what the fuck makes for a good tourney game?

Its funny how he says theres no a3 tournaments. yet theresone every year at the Toronto tournaments. And then theres the A-cho match vids that seem to happen more than often. I mean how could this possibly be?

And 3s not a tournament game? Wtf would you like us to play? Rock siccors paper? Prolly not because, you know ho you can link a low short to rock attact and the guy cant parry it, That shits broken. I guess games like chess and checkers is out of the question as well.

Geez we gotta get with the times and buckle down with some mvsh just like this guy says. :rolleyes:

If you don't give a shit what people think, don't make a thread asking what they think.:wink:
I didn't make the thread ya dumb fak! Maybe read the first post ya idiot

[F.Y.C.N.]

Try reading my post(s) for the answer smart guy

you didnt define what makes a tourney worthy game... you mentioned guilty gear and you only did so bc it was fun to watch the finals for those tourneys... pls tell me that cant be your reasoning smart guy

playing a game in a tourney like it was a casual game = good tourney game?

[F.Y.C.N.]

another thing you shouldnt judge what most top players do to win a tourney and then blame that on the make of the game... many chars in third strike can take the cake in that game you just dont see it happen that often bc most top players simply want to rely on what they know will work with minimum effort... do i think its cool to watch chun vs chun matches all day... fuck no

the thing about it is winners like winning and they'll do what it takes to make it happen and if it makes for "boring" matches then so be it... that doesnt mean its not tourney worthy it just means you cant stand to watch that shit... and thats ok, i hate watching that shit too... but thats why i have to give props to the aussies. Those motherfuckers dont give a shit they play with heart and run with their fav chars not just the ones that are easier to win with... perfect example this dude Kechu, who imo is probably the best alex player in the world, took the last aussie tourney with relative ease against chuns, yuns and the whole shabang... and dont knock the aussies most of those fools are buff in 3s they can hang with the japanese.

i think if americans followed that creed of play style you'd see more variety in the matches bc you can play 3s dynamically the game was built to be played with however you want to use... the thing is people are so used to seeing the top players stick with tiers that it leaks downward and everybody wants to be the next jwong chun or ohnuki... everyone wants to be umehara ken or pyro yun... you follow?

your not stating the faults found inherent in the game your stating faults inherent in the FGC as a whole... and again i can agree with you that most 3s tourney finals are boring as hell to watch but you will find nuggets of gold if you know where to look... shit just recently vic vances duds took out amir chun at a tourney over here at AI... that shit was beefy

[SuicidalGrandpa]

Suicidal - A lot of players use emulators to play on Kaillera, which an an online emulator-linking program. It's certainly not arcade-quality, but it's good for shits and giggles.

Yeah, I've got that, I've been lookin' for other SRK members but have found none.

[F.Y.C.N.]

also xvsf is dope and should continue to run side tourneys at evo... ill see you fuckers there... ill be the dude beasting with juggs/ryu :wgrin:

[{PFH}-Lake]

Super awesome, you learned a combo.

Go to ottowa and get raped all day with your super awesome gief inf skills.

Honestly, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You said you'd rather play MSH.. you don't get to talk anymore.


Suicidal - A lot of players use emulators to play on Kaillera, which an an online emulator-linking program. It's certainly not arcade-quality, but it's good for shits and giggles. lol you sound like I hate the game, 1st of all you misunderstand. Ive watched people play in tournaments all they do is infinites unless there using Storm. You shouldn't post anymore, in fact its people like you that make me want to become a premy. MSH is a far better game then XvSF, its not all about landing a infinite combo, you and all you people who are wondering why no one plays this game in tournaments have no idea what your saying.

I know and other people already know why this game isnt in tournaments, and if you still cant understand your a fool.

I like XvSF but playing it, cometitvely it isnt fun. Like people said before a 10000000000000 times who ever lands a infinite wins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDi95CX5ZNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrJyF0aNtY
As you see the infinites arent even hard at all so why not use them? Its like playing Cable and not using his AVBX3

[margalis]

playing a game in a tourney like it was a casual game = good tourney game?

A good game doesn't greatly restrict what is effective at higher levels. Of course the play at high levels is better but when you find a lot of what you did at intermediate levels obsolete without any real replacement you have a problem.

I don't want to get into whether US 3S players are lazy or *why* the 3S tourney scene is the way it is. But the fact is 3S tourneys at Evo use about 1% of the total gameplay available in 3S. You have a game that lets you do a whole bunch of stuff and choose a bunch of characters but in the end most of it just doesn't matter. The game is degenerate. It's like having a character with 200 moves but you only use 3 of them.

In some games a higher degree of difficulty translates into more effectiveness- makes sense right? In XSF the easiest combos are the most effective ones and the crazy hard ones are relatively pointless. Higher risk, lower reward - bad.

XSF has a very open combo system that encourages you to have fun and do crazy shit - except that stuff isn't as effective as a combo I can do after practicing for 5 minutes. The range of available things you can do is huge but the range of effective things is much much smaller.

It comes down to how much of the available gameplay is viable at high levels? No game is at 100% but that is the ideal.

XSF is particularly bad because the thing that many people find the most fun, the creative combos and resets and such, basically don't matter at high levels at all. There isn't any point in a reset when there are no dizzies, low damage scaling and you can do 100% damage off an infinite. And there isn't any point in being creative when jumping and doing the same 3 moves over and over is a sure win once your combo is started.

Now of course some people don't find the combo engine of XSF the fun part, they enjoy the positioning, avoiding infinites and setting them up, etc. Fine. That's a valid opinion - but not a popular one. If you read through this thread and others like it you will see time and time again the reason people like XSF is the openness of the engine and specifically the combo freedom you have.

Which in the end doesn't matter at all.

[Shiro_420]

lol you sound like I hate the game, 1st of all you misunderstand. Ive watched people play in tournaments all they do is infinites unless there using Storm. You shouldn't post anymore, in fact its people like you that make me want to become a premy. MSH is a far better game then XvSF, its not all about landing a infinite combo, you and all you people who are wondering why no one plays this game in tournaments have no idea what your saying.

I know and other people already know why this game isnt in tournaments, and if you still cant understand your a fool.

I like XvSF but playing it, cometitvely it isnt fun. Like people said before a 10000000000000 times who ever lands a infinite wins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDi95CX5ZNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWrJyF0aNtY
As you see the infinites arent even hard at all so why not use them? Its like playing Cable and not using his AVBX3

yawn
:rolleyes: wont even tuch it

[F.Y.C.N.]

A good game doesn't greatly restrict what is effective at higher levels. Of course the play at high levels is better but when you find a lot of what you did at intermediate levels obsolete without any real replacement you have a problem.

I don't want to get into whether US 3S players are lazy or *why* the 3S tourney scene is the way it is. But the fact is 3S tourneys at Evo use about 1% of the total gameplay available in 3S. You have a game that lets you do a whole bunch of stuff and choose a bunch of characters but in the end most of it just doesn't matter. The game is degenerate. It's like having a character with 200 moves but you only use 3 of them.

In some games a higher degree of difficulty translates into more effectiveness- makes sense right? In XSF the easiest combos are the most effective ones and the crazy hard ones are relatively pointless. Higher risk, lower reward - bad.

XSF has a very open combo system that encourages you to have fun and do crazy shit - except that stuff isn't as effective as a combo I can do after practicing for 5 minutes. The range of available things you can do is huge but the range of effective things is much much smaller.

It comes down to how much of the available gameplay is viable at high levels? No game is at 100% but that is the ideal.

XSF is particularly bad because the thing that many people find the most fun, the creative combos and resets and such, basically don't matter at high levels at all. There isn't any point in a reset when there are no dizzies, low damage scaling and you can do 100% damage off an infinite. And there isn't any point in being creative when jumping and doing the same 3 moves over and over is a sure win once your combo is started.

Now of course some people don't find the combo engine of XSF the fun part, they enjoy the positioning, avoiding infinites and setting them up, etc. Fine. That's a valid opinion - but not a popular one. If you read through this thread and others like it you will see time and time again the reason people like XSF is the openness of the engine and specifically the combo freedom you have.

Which in the end doesn't matter at all.

i see what you're saying and i can agree with most of it however i still fail to see why these games aren't good tourney games... to me it seems mostly just opinion on whether you would want to play these games in a tourney as opposed to them just being unbalanced or broken thus rendering these games unplayable in a competitive format... fuck i really have no idea what the metric is to gauge what makes a game tourney worthy... cause you could say balance, but then you got games like MvC2 (no hate) where the char balance is completely lopsided but people still play the shit out of that...

[MiddleKingpin]

A good game doesn't greatly restrict what is effective at higher levels. Of course the play at high levels is better but when you find a lot of what you did at intermediate levels obsolete without any real replacement you have a problem.

Argument:
A game is problematically designed if the high level play strategies dominate lower-level playing strategies.

Countargument:
A game where "intermediate" strategies are very much competitive against "high level" strategies blurs the true difference in skill levels between players.

I won't speak on 3S as it is simply not my strongest suit and we are indeed discussing XSF... but...

You have a game that lets you do a whole bunch of stuff and choose a bunch of characters but in the end most of it just doesn't matter. The game is degenerate.

The above logic is carried over into your arguments against XSF as a competitive game, so let's work with that, shall we?


In some games a higher degree of difficulty translates into more effectiveness- makes sense right? In XSF the easiest combos are the most effective ones and the crazy hard ones are relatively pointless. Higher risk, lower reward - bad.

Disagree in many ways. First of all, the psychological edge. Second of all, the flexibility of these "relatively pointless" combos is not to be denied. High level XSF is all about play for space. Set-ups, mix-ups, mind games, staggering hits for more range, flying screen deterioration, it's all very circumstancially effective and I think it's more than a tad ignorant to simply dismiss the effectiveness of the comboes and say that "oh, the game is all about 3 hit corner infinites."

XSF has a very open combo system that encourages you to have fun and do crazy shit

This I will agree with.

- except that stuff isn't as effective as a combo I can do after practicing for 5 minutes. The range of available things you can do is huge but the range of effective things is much much smaller.

I just completely disagree with this statement. How are you getting this combo off? Under what circumstances?

It comes down to how much of the available gameplay is viable at high levels? No game is at 100% but that is the ideal.

You can't be serious. Hmm. XSF has damaging special moves. Does this mean that pokes into supers should be a viable tournament strategy? Oh wait. People do that shit all the time. Ever thrown down with someone who could run a decent Bison?

XSF is particularly bad because the thing that many people find the most fun, the creative combos and resets and such, basically don't matter at high levels at all.

... I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I just get the impression that you might have gotten beasted by some kids because your execution wasn't tight and you didn't properly play for space, which led to you getting cheesed out one too many times.
If this is the case, that, I am not sorry to say, is entirely your fault.


There isn't any point in a reset when there are no dizzies, low damage scaling and you can do 100% damage off an infinite.
1) Resets maintain offensive tempo. Additionally, it's your perogative whether or not to let someone out of an infinite. That, my friend, is called a handicap. Like in Golf. Helps you get your mind game on.

2) No dizzies? Uhh.... umm.... uhhhhhhhhhhhh... XD
HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO
If i could phoneticize a wolverine claw noise i would put it here too.

And there isn't any point in being creative when jumping and doing the same 3 moves over and over is a sure win once your combo is started.
But how are you getting the combo started? You haven't addressed this once. You've just fixated on the ability of people to corner infinite.

Now of course some people don't find the combo engine of XSF the fun part, they enjoy the positioning, avoiding infinites and setting them up, etc.
Not to mention the fact that the "crazy and fun but unplayable comboes" often set up these infinites. I like that people can either find 1) the combo engine or 2) technical play to be the selling point of the game, but not both. Maybe I missed something...

Put together, your two selling points of the game perfectly summarize why it is such a fantastic competitive game.

Fine. That's a valid opinion - but not a popular one. If you read through this thread and others like it you will see time and time again the reason people like XSF is the openness of the engine and specifically the combo freedom you have.

Which in the end doesn't matter at all.
Seriously, if we come down to Evo, let's arrange some XSF. You and anyone else are welcome to play some XSF against us (the Ottawa gang). Given that you know so much about this game and it's obviously simply about fluking out a corner infinite, you should have no prooooooblems trouncing the rest of us philistines. I mean, lord knows that all the advanced movement, mixups, FSD combos, resets and the like will be nothing before your corner infinite MADNESS :D

[jreinert13]

margalis your posts are an absolute joke. You've shown to know nothing about this game..despite your claim to being able to figure out the 'winning' solution in 5 minutes... oh man. It's way too funny and annoying at the same time. There's so much to address but I don't want to bother (the reset bullshit is fucking too much though - you know NOTHING).

You've also managed to label CvS2, 3S and Alpha 3 as bad tournament games... this is too much...good entertainment though..

[F.Y.C.N.]

Seriously, if we come down to Evo, let's arrange some XSF. You and anyone else are welcome to play some XSF against us (the Ottawa gang). Given that you know so much about this game and it's obviously simply about fluking out a corner infinite, you should have no prooooooblems trouncing the rest of us philistines. I mean, lord knows that all the advanced movement, mixups, FSD combos, resets and the like will be nothing before your corner infinite MADNESS :D

man if you guys roll thru im definitely down for some xvsf action... the games been getting a resurgence of love at james games and super arcade over here... we aren't beasts or nothing but we dont suck either:wink:

[Spider-Dan]

I didn't understand why some people think that Marvel Super Heroes is balanced...

Msh is better to Xvsf IMO but the games is broken if you guys use Iron-man, Spider or Wolvie.

The infinites are more easy than Xvsf and the 1st hit in anywhere of screen win the round. I'm saying for the 3 Top tiers IM-Wolvie-Spider.
The difference being that those three characters have solid counters (e.g. Shuma, Jug) removing a lot of the sting of their dominance. Spidey and Wolvie are good, but far from unbeatable. IM is middle-tier.

But try play with some of the Mid Tiers against the Top Tiers... you can win eith Mid Tiers but you have to do almost a perfect because maybe the Tops kill you with the 1hit infinite. I already saw expert matchs with Mid vs Top but these are very unbalaced because 1hit infinite of the Tops are insane. The infinits of the Mid Tiers are limited in the corner.
I have won many, many matches with characters you classify as "mid tier" against characters you classify as top tier. Just for starters, Spidey and Wolvie have no low-hitting ground combo that will result in a launch against a high-blocking Jug (which removes the "one low short" threat) and neither one of them can combo off of a throw that is midscreen or in the opponent's corner (which makes the throw/no throw guessing game vs. Shuma extremely unbalanced, as it results in ~15% damage if they guess right but death if they guess wrong).

IM has too many problems with Spidey and Wolvie to be considered top tier.

[Dasrik]

man if you guys roll thru im definitely down for some xvsf action... the games been getting a resurgence of love at james games and super arcade over here... we aren't beasts or nothing but we dont suck either:wink:
Sim/Juggy > James Games!

...okay, not really, but I wish ^_^

[power333]

It comes down to how much of the available gameplay is viable at high levels? No game is at 100% but that is the ideal.



IMO, you have a good argument, except for this.

Rock/paper/scissors use 100% of the available gameplay at high levels. 3 moves (and maybe some shenanigans with your hand).


Marvel uses just a small percentage of its avaliable; 70000 possibilities or something like this.

Percentage is absolutely irrelevant. What should matter (for your criteria) is variety in high level play. Take MvC2: Each Magneto traingle jump has a different height, a different timing, a different goal and etc, but iunteremdiate players only see combos.

Bad players see just a tiny bit of the game. There is barely any in depth strategy. So when they see a high level video, they have no clue about the advanced stuff (its just snapback, its just low forward into super, its just 3 hit infinites) is a reaction form people who simply can´t comprehend what they're seeing.



My point is:

- Only high level matters
- How cool or varied middle level game is irrelevant for tourney play
- Percentage of stuff that is kept from sucky levels in high levels is not a sign of a good game. Ground AHVB s would not make high level Marvel cooler.

[margalis]

Argument:
A game is problematically designed if the high level play strategies dominate lower-level playing strategies.

Countargument:
A game where "intermediate" strategies are very much competitive against "high level" strategies blurs the true difference in skill levels between players.


I didn't phrase that very well I admit. My point is that the game should not radically change. Of course some character use and move use and strategies are going to be different to some degree. Obviously the exact same strategies aren't going to be effective at all levels of play, but the overall tenor of the game should not radically change.

If you look at a game like CVS2 low-fierce era, the high level game plays totally differently from mid-level - it basically isn't the same game any more.
---

Let me make it clear once again that I like XSF. It does take skill and it is fun. Setting up infinites does take skill, as does avoiding them. Getting people into the position you want them takes skill. It has mindgames. It has strategy.

My problem again is that what people enjoy at the middle levels, really the main selling point of the game, has very little bearing on high-level play.



1) Resets maintain offensive tempo. Additionally, it's your perogative whether or not to let someone out of an infinite. That, my friend, is called a handicap. Like in Golf. Helps you get your mind game on.

2) No dizzies? Uhh.... umm.... uhhhhhhhhhhhh.


Sorry, I meant "undizzies" there, not "dizzies".

Why would you let someone out of an infinite? My point (badly made thanks to that typo) was that in MVC2 with undizzies and damage scaling resets are a good strategy. In XSF an inifnite is always going to kill outright or dizzy - so why bother reseting? Yeah, it is your perogative I guess but if you are playing to win that doesn't make any sense. Who handicaps themself in serious play?

That's an example of a fun option that is irrelevant in a tournament setting. Whereas again in MVC2 resets are more viable for a variety of reasons. Not only because of damage scaling and undizzies but also because doing damage faster matters more with the 2 partners healing.

The only reason to go for a reset in XSF is that you aren't in position to land an infinite. That's it.

I know that being good at XSF is far more than learning infinites.

Look at what CallMeANewb wrote above. That infinites are cheesy and deserve a soft-ban.

CallMeANewb is an XSF advocate. He started the damn thread! And in his mind, infinites are cheesy, not fun, and should potentially be soft-banned. Those are his words, not mine.

A lot of XSF players think like CallMeANewb.

Personally I think that when the dominant tournament strategies are not fun to use or play against that the game isn't a good tournament game. Winning and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of XSF *fans* don't enjoy tournament-style XSF, even the ones that create threads advocating XSF.


Percentage of stuff that is kept from sucky levels in high levels is not a sign of a good game. Ground AHVB s would not make high level Marvel cooler.


If ground HVB was viable that would make Marvel .01% better. Moves that are totally useless in high level play are kind of silly - waste of time by Capcom to put them in. Obviously you don't want to see supposedly high-level players trading ground HVBs with each other but more moves being useful at high levels is a good thing.

Percentage vs. absolute number, you can quibble. One thing that annoys me is devs spending time on features that have no use in the end. And it is a problem when people enjoy the full breadth of the game only to find out that most of that breadth doesn't matter at all.

[Mixup]

ground hyperviper beam sidesteps projectiles, it's pretty fucking funny and really useful vs HSF

random

[Prozac`Nation]

Margalis, You said the top known "competively playable" games aren't competitively playable. CallMeANewb said that ST OSagat/Vega are softbanned in Japan, to make a point that all many competitive games have simple, boring techniques at the highest rung of play that are annoying to play against.

I bet checkers doesn't. Go play checkers. We'll have fun.

Kthx.

[margalis]

OSagat and Claw are not soft-banned at EVO or anywhere in the US, and reports of their soft-ban in Japan are exaggerated.

The fact is OSagat and Claw have some simple techniques but those techniques are not super effective. Yes they are good but they aren't the two best characters in the game.

That argument has no merit. US ST players are fine playing against OSagat and Claw, those matchups are fun and those strats don't dominate. How often does Claw win tournies or even place in the top few spots? It's not like ST tournaments are consistently dominated by repeated Tiger Shots and Wall Dives.

Compare Claw and OSagat to Chun and Yun in 3S. Chun and Yun *do* consistently dominate, their simple boring techniques *are* the best techniques in the game. The fact is ST is not dominated by simple, boring techniques, which is why it is still on the tournament scene. Character selection and tactics have not reached a degenerate state, the game is still diverse and healthy.

My CVS2 comments apply only to low-fierce era CVS2. (As I stated many times) The game during the low-fierce era was a crap tournament game. Clearly that was the low point of the CVS2 tournament scene - I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. Thankfully we got beyond the point where every player's strategy was to go with two jobbers and Sagat low fierce batting cleanup. When your entire tournament scene is defined by one move you have a problem. (Or, in the case of 3S today, 2 moves)

---

I'm the only person who has even bothered to state what it means for a game to be tournament worthy or competitively playable.

The best CallMeANewb could offer was that popularity is the same as tournament worthy, which indicates that MK is the most tournament worthy game. I notice he didn't persue that line of reasoning...

[KrassHole]

OSagat and Claw are not soft-banned at EVO or anywhere in the US, and reports of their soft-ban in Japan are exaggerated.

The fact is OSagat and Claw have some simple techniques but those techniques are not super effective. Yes they are good but they aren't the two best characters in the game.

That argument has no merit. US ST players are fine playing against OSagat and Claw, those matchups are fun and those strats don't dominate. How often does Claw win tournies or even place in the top few spots? It's not like ST tournaments are consistently dominated by repeated Tiger Shots and Wall Dives.

Compare Claw and OSagat to Chun and Yun in 3S. Chun and Yun *do* consistently dominate, their simple boring techniques *are* the best techniques in the game. The fact is ST is not dominated by simple, boring techniques, which is why it is still on the tournament scene. Character selection and tactics have not reached a degenerate state, the game is still diverse and healthy.

My CVS2 comments apply only to low-fierce era CVS2. (As I stated many times) The game during the low-fierce era was a crap tournament game. Clearly that was the low point of the CVS2 tournament scene - I don't see how anyone could disagree with that. Thankfully we got beyond the point where every player's strategy was to go with two jobbers and Sagat low fierce batting cleanup. When your entire tournament scene is defined by one move you have a problem. (Or, in the case of 3S today, 2 moves)

---

I'm the only person who has even bothered to state what it means for a game to be tournament worthy or competitively playable.

The best CallMeANewb could offer was that popularity is the same as tournament worthy, which indicates that MK is the most tournament worthy game. I notice he didn't persue that line of reasoning...


I cannot believe you don't shut up
[/Apu]

But for real, I still can't believe this retard is talking. Just because you state something as tourney worthy. it doesn't make a lick of difference to any of us. You're a no body, your judgement means nothing. GTFOKTHX

[Adam Warlock]

ground hyperviper beam sidesteps projectiles, it's pretty fucking funny and really useful vs HSF

random

Wait what what?

[Taikoubou]

The difference being that those three characters have solid counters (e.g. Shuma, Jug) removing a lot of the sting of their dominance. Spidey and Wolvie are good, but far from unbeatable. IM is middle-tier.


I have won many, many matches with characters you classify as "mid tier" against characters you classify as top tier. Just for starters, Spidey and Wolvie have no low-hitting ground combo that will result in a launch against a high-blocking Jug (which removes the "one low short" threat) and neither one of them can combo off of a throw that is midscreen or in the opponent's corner (which makes the throw/no throw guessing game vs. Shuma extremely unbalanced, as it results in ~15% damage if they guess right but death if they guess wrong).

IM has too many problems with Spidey and Wolvie to be considered top tier.

IM doesn't have many problems to beat Wolvie. Your worst enemy is Spider, realy.

IM is mid tier, right? Because just a few peoples know how to use your good skills. A good IM doesn't stay in the ground, he only stay in the ground while execute the infinite. He best strategy is fly around the air to confuse the enemy and attack distant. Then he comes close to you with the fly and attack the enemy and start the infinit.

Try play against a realy good IM player. He will not stay close to you, this will hapenning only if he attacks you.

When you see a really good IM player, maybe you will change some opinion about IM. I have to tell you that i never seen any really good msh match in the net (inclusive combovideos.com <--They are just for fun, not a competitive play).

No one is unbeatable, you are right. And i alrealdy saw many matchs from "my" Tops chars lose to Mid Tiers. But this is hard to do against a really good player, not a scrub. The good player can kill you if he hit you in a lot of circumstance.

Shuma is good , but if i do a rank he would be the number 4. He does the 100% corner combo, have a good throw but your good enemy will not let you do this easyly with him.

Jugger is a good too, your best strategy is play defensive. Then do the powerfull combos.

Well, i think that game is broken because the Tops is too many powerfull considering the others chars. Wolvie, for example can kill you just in the ground with your ground cancel fierce infinit. Or if your enemy use the strange game bugs like do the reality gen bug for you start the round dizzy! (oops this is a secret...!)

[Khiempossible]

I'm saying that when people complain about 3S, A3, CVS2, CVS1 and MVC2 although the complaints are different the underlying problem is the same - the game at high levels breaks down and stops resembling the game people know and love.

this is mostly likely due to the fact that you do NOT play these games at high levels. Of course high level play doesn't look like low level play, if it looked like low level play it would just be low level play. sometimes these changes are subtle, subtle things like minute 6 pixel movements make a huge difference. for instance, in 3s, when I see certain players moving back and forth in front of me at a certain distance, i know i can expect a low. Why? because when the same player goes for an overhead he's moving more drastically further back.

all you might see is the character moving back and forth and going for seemingly random overhead/lows/throws etc. but 3s is all about tells.


Out of the list I mentioned 3S and CVS2 low fierce era are pretty bad. I'm not too familiar with the CVS1 tournament scene so I can't comment on that too much. MVC2 is fine, CVS2 is fine in general, A3 is kind of borderline. Again this is true of all games to some extent, it is a question of degree.

Competitive is the wrong word. Any 2 player vs. game is competitive unless it has an "I Win" button. That doesn't make it a good tournament game.


your definition of tournament worthy game is still "are the high level play videos fun to watch?" tournament worthy games have fun to watch high level play vids.


That is fun for ST players. Seriously. Yeah it is frustrating but it is also a fun challenge. If a bunch of ST players were saying "man, high level ST is just fireball traps!" then we might have a problem - I've never heard anyone say that! Fireball traps are the bane of intermediate players.

except high level ST IS about the fireball trap. you're either trying to put your opponent in one, or trying not to get in one. just like XvSF is about infinites, and 3s is about Parry, and A3 is about bar and Vism.

[]
I specifically said in my post that "first big mistake loses" is fine. I have no problem with that.

then why do you complain about infinites?


O. Sagat and Claw are not soft-banned in the US. Are you saying you think infinites should be soft-banned? Or that infinites are not fun to play against?

Personally I don't think O. Sagat or Claw should be soft-banned, I don't even think those are the two best characters in ST and I don't think off the wall over and over again is a dominate strategy.

It sounds to me that you are calling O. Sagat, Claw and inifinites all 'cheesy' to some degree.

it is cheesy. But that's not the point, Vism is cheesy, CCs are cheesy. All I'm saying with softbanning is that (as middle kingpin pointed out) playing in casuals is more fun when you have more opportunities to learn and make mistakes. When you infinite you learn from a particular situation, when you get the opportunity to practice combos you have the opportunity to learn from multiple situations. Casuals is for learning, Competition is for winning. Just like in any other game, you do funky things and try your best to infinite. In MVC2 mag players will reset far and far more often than they might in competition.


If ST was all O. Sagat and Claw and people hated those matchups then ST wouldn't be a good tournament game. But ST isn't all O. Sagat and Claw and a lots of people don't mind playing against them.

Going to a tournament isn't supposed to be work, like "well time to pack away all my neat tricks and prepare for boring repitition from everyone!"

I take it you've never been to a tournament before? Street fighter is all about winning and being number one. that's the whole reason we have tournaments. We want to find out who the best is. XvSF simply requires infinites. and that's how it rolls.

3S is not a good tournament game. I'm certainly not alone in thinking that. A3 is a bad tournament game and apparently most people agree since there are no tournaments for it. [QUOTE=margalis;3679841]

It ends there. You want to explain to the fighting game masses how all the best Street Fighters ever played aren't tournament worthy? You obviously do not play these games.



[QUOTE=margalis;3679841]
No, the newest Mortal Kombat isn't tournament worthy. You disagree?

MK is proof that just because a game is popular doesn't mean it is a good tournament game. 3S is popular (although not even close to the 'most popular fighting game') in spite of how it plays in tournaments, not because of it.

I take that back. 3s is the most popular TOURNAMENT fighting game. secondly, arguing over semantics does not change the original point. Why do so many people play 3s in competitions if it's a poor tournament game? Why did so many people play A3 (which was THE Street Fighter before 3s took off in 2k2). Obviously there's thousands of people out there who enjoy these games competitively, I would think you're the exception not the rule in thinking 3s and A3 aren't tournament worthy.



I'll say it again, the farther the tournament game is from the casual game the worse the game is for tournaments. I haven't seen you agree or disagree with that, or suggest what other criteria should be used. Tournament XSF looks like boring crud, as does tournament 3S and CVS2 low-fierce era.

Alright, I'll disagree, a tournament game is one in which the mind games are deep and challenging. This is something that is hard to see in tournament videos watching as an onlooker. What you really need to do is compete, play the game, then lose at those mind games and ask yourself why? It's not cause the game sucks, it's cause you suck. a tournament games playability is more related to the skill required to succeed with it.

So you say infinites reduce the skill required to beast at XvSF? I've showed you that it's not. In ottawa our same players keep winning and winning my tournaments. Dog-face and MMDS consistently win at XvSF in the south. good players consistently perform better than less skilled ones. And it's not cause of infinites, I'm sure MMDS and dog-face could win just as easily without infinites. In fact Martin who plays in Ottawa generally does not infinite at all, yet he still wins. So sure the combo system is degenerate, but the playability and rest of the skills required for the game are not. If the game was degenerate, our winners would all be random, since the skill required to play the game would be extrememly little, more players could play and they'd all hit that peak sooner, making results more like coin tosses and less like rankings. This is not the case. So since the game is not degenerate, why not have tournaments for it?


Compare that to GG. I'm not a fan of GG but GG tournament play is pretty exciting and dynamic, just like it is in casual play. (With the exception of some Sol-dominance courtesy of Japan)

not to flame, but I can't stress enough that your only criteria for judging tournament playability is how entertaining high level videos are


A game that discourages you from using a variety of strats, characters or moves when played seriously is not a good game. That is what you call degenerate gameplay.

precisely, Xvsf is full of strats, character diversity and move usage. The biggest reason to play XvSF is that you can compete and WIN with any style you want using any character you want.

What you're complaining about is the combos.

nowhere in strats, characters, moves does the word combo come into play. boring combos do not make a degenerate game.



Don't ask a question if you can't stomach the answer. You made this thread just so everyone could agree with you?

if you actually answered, instead of just giving me faulty logic, I'd argue with you, but I've decided against it. Arguing with you stupid. You don't bring up arguements. You bring up opinions with no substance. Your whole argument this entire time has been: Xvsf sucks cause people use boring combos in high level play.

We've all told you it's a weak argument that has nothing to do with how the game plays out. Cause seriously, if we banned infinites, 100% combos would do the same thing and the gameplay would remain the same. the game would be tournament viable just cause we use pretty combos? that's the stupidest thing i've ever heard.

A good game doesn't greatly restrict what is effective at higher levels. Of course the play at high levels is better but when you find a lot of what you did at intermediate levels obsolete without any real replacement you have a problem.

xvsf doesn't restrict what's effective at high levels. as any character there's a good dozen ways to attack your opponent, and each character has at least that many answers. That's where the depth and mind games and skill comes in. You seem to be missing out. In fact, high level is great, because austere and hard to implement strategies are required to break through defenses to land that infinite. XvSF is all about advanced tactics to open your opponent.

in XSF the easiest combos are the most effective ones and the crazy hard ones are relatively pointless. Higher risk, lower reward - bad.

you're not accounting for game play tactics like wave dashing, triangle jumping. cross up attacks, bait outs, square jumping, counter hitting, cross up anti airs etc. the harder it is for your opponent see the attack coming (and thus the harder it is for him to defend against it) the more risk you take in implementing the strategy. counterhitting wolvies dive kick with charlie's low fierce is a high risk high reward technique that's very difficult to implement (timing). Other tactics like triangle jumping can leave you with random typhoons that will get you infinited. Cross up attacks are even worse. watch our vids, a lot of 1hitcombo's mistakes come from implementing difficult but highly rewarding tactics, fuckign them up, ending up with typhoon, then getting killed.

So yeah, all you see is combos. But I can't blame you since you don't seem to play the game.


XSF has a very open combo system that encourages you to have fun and do crazy shit - except that stuff isn't as effective as a combo I can do after practicing for 5 minutes. The range of available things you can do is huge but the range of effective things is much much smaller.

It comes down to how much of the available gameplay is viable at high levels? No game is at 100% but that is the ideal.

XSF is particularly bad because the thing that many people find the most fun, the creative combos and resets and such, basically don't matter at high levels at all. There isn't any point in a reset when there are no dizzies, low damage scaling and you can do 100% damage off an infinite. And there isn't any point in being creative when jumping and doing the same 3 moves over and over is a sure win once your combo is started.

enough about the combo system, scrub.

[Mixup]

Wait what what?

lol keep trying hvb right before the drones hit you, with a few tries you should get it. kinda similar to how capcom can run through 1 projectile with his kick super. just happens to match up in a similar way vs hsf and is really suprisingly useful when ur helper is getting spat onXXhsf.

best part about it is that when u realize u fucked up and u didn't jump right or u see that u can't get away from the drones, ground super that ass.

xvsf is fucking dope and i'm a firm believer that marvel 2 and xvsf would be better off without storm:arazz:

I like so much of what they both offer that i could care less what an internet retard thinks.

give it up margalis, for someone so incredibly on point with his opinion about *insert game here* , it's funny that i've never seen you place in any worthwhile tourney.....ever.

whats up with that? I know too many players who just looooove to talk shit about any game but when it's time to actually fucking play.....go get some more tokens batch....

I think xvsf has a chance to kinda get big again, the marvel scene would have to kinda branch out and get into it for it to really blow up imho. U gotta help us marvel scrubs out tho.

i'll start with an actual q how the fuck can i catch storm running around when my team is charlie/gambit(typical order)

I know how i try to do it in marvel with cross-ups as she lands, throws and sneaking inbetween her set-ups to get a mind game going. This shit is different for me since i seem to have to rely on priority with charlie and bit. I know a little about charlie's flip kick cross-ups and stuff, but i don't have any real idea how that will match up with some of storms positioning ablities. Buncha scrubby players:sweat: :sad: :wgrin:

Edit: lol about the degenerate gameplay, tekken typically encourages around 10 moves!!!... yet the game has a shitload of mindgames and positioning tricks to get in range for that bulk of gameplay.

It's always about your gameplay lvl when you're talkin shit like that, in marvel 2 i'll pick low tiers all day and use their crappy options to open up people using top tiers. I can do that shit because people are *UNFAMILIAR* with the "soft" characters and they actually have SOME GOOD SHIT...heh. I guess i'm saying that even though storm in mvc2 is a whore, that doesn't stop the fact that morrigan has great priority/combos/cross-ups. Sure the game looks pretty stupid with storm running away from me all day, but let me tag that bitch one time and because of whats my bum can do, it's a completely different fight. New counter hits will open up to me, more zoning and mind games can be applied ect ect.

one more thing, i wonder why people reset in marvel even though you can typically max an infinite to 40 then combo into a dhc for a dead character...?

fairly similar story to xvsf kinda, cheap combos all based around the mindgames leading into the priority/throw battles.....

[BPC]

Actually old sagat IS the best character...might want to do a little research before making ignorant comments about OG games.

[Dasrik]

IM stuff :)
Wolverine's dashing jumping jab makes IM's life generally unpleasant. It's not a huge problem if you're keeping the offensive, but it can make maneuvering tricky.

Actually old sagat IS the best character...might want to do a little research before making ignorant comments about OG games.
While I certainly don't agree about O.Sagat having tactics that are "not super effective", isn't it generally acknowledged that Rog and Sim are better (Rog has more good matchups and Sim counters O.Sagat's basic strat)?

i'll start with an actual q how the fuck can i catch storm running around when my team is charlie/gambit(typical order)
Nobody can really do it since her air fierce is God. :( Just try to keep junk on the screen for her to dodge. Flash kick and trick card are *okay* moves (emphasis on "okay", especially for trick card).

[Mixup]

Nobody can really do it since her air fierce is God. :( Just try to keep junk on the screen for her to dodge. Flash kick and trick card are *okay* moves (emphasis on "okay", especially for trick card).

Well that sucks pretty damn bad, if it weren't for sentinel/magnus/cable with beastly helpers then mvc2 could've easily had the same problem....

I trust you dasrik, been taking your ghetto advice for years, but i'm still holding out hope that some of the more hardcore players will tell me you're wrong:sweat:

[power333]

If ground HVB was viable that would make Marvel .01% better. Moves that are totally useless in high level play are kind of silly - waste of time by Capcom to put them in. Obviously you don't want to see supposedly high-level players trading ground HVBs with each other but more moves being useful at high levels is a good thing.

Percentage vs. absolute number, you can quibble. One thing that annoys me is devs spending time on features that have no use in the end. And it is a problem when people enjoy the full breadth of the game only to find out that most of that breadth doesn't matter at all.

You're still talking about percentages. Even without HVB, Marvel 2 may have more high level options then all the other Capcom games combined. Taking Roll out of MvC2 would not make the game better.Roll is irrelevant for tourneys, but another coll thing for casual play.

So what if the development team makes some useless stuff at high levels? Every single game is like that, and its their work, not your. My point is that the important thing is that the game should have lots of options in high levels. If Capcom launches a special MvC2 edition with 20 extra sucky characters, this is still good. The main game is untouched, and new players have 20 extra reasons to be attracted to the game. The percentage of useful stuff would drop, although the main game is intact.

ground hyperviper beam sidesteps projectiles, it's pretty fucking funny and really useful vs HSF

random

But AHVB does the same thing, right? Or maybe I am juts missing something here. Although HVB can have that effect in a DHC as well, so you still have your point.

[power333]

Try play against a realy good IM player. He will not stay close to you, this will hapenning only if he attacks you.

When you see a really good IM player, maybe you will change some opinion about IM. I have to tell you that i never seen any really good msh match in the net (inclusive combovideos.com <--They are just for fun, not a competitive play).


Spider-Dan was/is probably one of the best players in the world at MSH, AFAIK. Not online play, or playing ten years after the launch, but winning when the game weas hot and the entire country played it hardcore everyday. I don't know about all the other stuff, but you can rest assured that there are at best a few people in the world that have played good, great and amazing IM players as often as Spider-Dan.

[Mixup]

But AHVB does the same thing, right? Or maybe I am juts missing something here. Although HVB can have that effect in a DHC as well, so you still have your point.

you need to use the ground version when you're in certain situations if you want free damage. sidestep that shit when the ahvb would get slapped...

there are so many different tricks in marvel, even with the shitty characters, people underestimate the amount of boshit there is with EACH character..

[margalis]

Actually old sagat IS the best character...might want to do a little research before making ignorant comments about OG games.

Uh what?

Based on results I think it is hard to argue against Sim, and yes Boxer is certainly up there as well. Many ST players don't agree on who the best character is and they certainly don't agree that O.Sagat is the best. And Claw, the other character you conveniently forgot to address in your retort, has never been considered the best character by anyone as far as I know.

And yes, Sim is generally considered to own O.Sagat straight up since he can drill over low tiger shots and slide/attack under high ones.

The top tier of ST is generally considered to be some mix of Sim, O.Sagat, Boxer, Dictator, Claw and N.Ryu with the latter three generally behind the first three. Chun might be in the mix depending on who you ask.

The fact that people don't agree on who the best character is is a good sign of the health of the ST scene.

power333: You are right about percentages.



Edit: lol about the degenerate gameplay, tekken typically encourages around 10 moves!!!... yet the game has a shitload of mindgames and positioning tricks to get in range for that bulk of gameplay.


A lot of people dislike Tekken 4 because the gameplay degenerates into JFLS and jabs. (To simplify a bit) A lot of people dislike some versions of SC2 because of X and the GI stuff.

The Tekken community has decided that some versions of Tekken are better tournament games than others, and that decision is based on how degenerate the gameplay is. There are better and worse Tekkens and SCs and that is the primary distinction.

This is not a difficult concept. The NBA instituted zone defenses for a similar reason - the league was turning mostly into isolation-based plays that worked only because of the rules for placing defenders didn't allow you to cover the guy with the ball properly.

You can argue about whether certain games are degenerate or not but that is the proper test.

Games succeed or fail at a tournament level for two reasons - how popular the game is in casual, and how degenerate the gameplay is. In the case of 3S it is very popular in casual and that has translated into large tournaments although the gameplay is degenerate at that level. In the case of A3 the gameplay was also somewhat degenerate (though not to the level of 3S) and the game was less popular so it died off.

ST is not very popular, but the gameplay holds up very well even at the highest levels so it still gets play.



Vism is cheesy, CCs are cheesy. All I'm saying with softbanning is that (as middle kingpin pointed out) playing in casuals is more fun when you have more opportunities to learn and make mistakes. When you infinite you learn from a particular situation, when you get the opportunity to practice combos you have the opportunity to learn from multiple situations. Casuals is for learning, Competition is for winning.


What else do you consider cheesy? Throws? Fireballs?

'Cheese' is scrub talk.

Why do you keep maintaining that fun and competition are mutually exclusive. "I play casual for fun and tournaments to win." Playing tournaments is supposed to be fun!

When you have to draw a distinction between playing to win and playing to have fun you have a problem. Those two goals are supposed to coincide. A game that isn't fun to play isn't a good game.

Here you are telling me that XSF is a great tournament game, just not fun to play in tournaments. Ok, I guess we have a different definition of what a great tournament game is. To me a chore is not great.



If the game was degenerate, our winners would all be random


You clearly don't get what degenerate even means. It doesn't mean random. A game can be degenerate and take a lot of skill.

How can you argue and argue when you don't even understand the terminology being used? And this isn't terminology I just pulled out of my ass.

Why not have XSF tournaments? Feel free, there are just much better games you could be playing. Everything you've said about XSF is more true of other, better games.

As I said before, any fighting game that doesn't have completely random elements is going to require skill and is going to reward the best players.

---

Edit: Mixup why are you interrupting a perfectly good internet flame-fest with actual information?

If I didn't know better I might guess you assumed that a thread titled "Is XvSF Competitively Playable?" is going to be fucking stupid by definition.

[Mixup]

:rofl:

[Khiempossible]

You clearly don't get what degenerate even means. It doesn't mean random. A game can be degenerate and take a lot of skill.

oh? what's your definition of degenerate?

Last I checked (dictionary.com) degenerate meant: to diminish in quality.

that itself is pretty vague.

but I don't know why I argue with you, I see the quality in the game, everyone else who plays this game sees teh quality in the game. You the forum scrub, who only judges things by watching videos doesn't see any quality in the game.

what's there to argue? you refuse to see my point, and keep changing yours or giving me additional faulty ones.

your point was originally: XvSF isn't competively playable because I get put into situations where I can't get out (infinite). Then you said, I like ST and changed your mind. Then you said I don't like games where strats are minimal which you just pulled out of your ass, cause you don't play the game on high enough of a level to realize just how much is involved. Then you said XvSF isn't playable because MSH is better, which has nothing to do with anything. Then you said xvsf isn't competively playable because the combos aren't pretty, then I told you that had nothing to do with gameplay. Then you say xvsf isn't playable because it's degenerate. Then I tell you it's no more degenerate than every other tournament fighting game.

Then you go on about some cheese shit, well of course CC infinites are cheesy. Of course 100% combos are cheesy, of course fireball traps (which are effectively 100% combos) are cheesy. I never said I had a problem with it, I just don't want to do that in casual play. If I get someone in a fireball trap, I'm not gonna zone him there, I'm going do fancy shit, I'm gonna fancy tick grabs, or bait out uppercuts or try dizzy combos, I'm gonna mixup him up, I'm not gonna sit there and cheese him to death. Cheese is cheese, and it's what you do to win, but it's not fun at casual levels.

I'm still confused though, what the fuck does degenerate mean? Tell me. How does XvSF have diminished quality? And don't give me that fun at casuals and fun at tournament bullshit. Have you ever been to a tournament? tournaments ARE fun. But they're serious too. You play to win. You cheese your opponents if you have to. But that doesn't mean it's not fun. Tournaments are fun cause they're stressful. You're always worried about taking hits, you worried about not doing that combo, you're worried that you might get eliminated, you're worried about losing that entry fee in the pot. You're worried about being embarassed cause you might lose to that other scrub in losers. That's fun. Tournaments are fun because they're serious. I don't think I'd have fun at a tournament if I didn't care about how well I was gonna do.

And of course the playstyle changes between casuals and tournament games, everyone always plays differently in tournaments than they do in casuals. Even in ST. In ST you're gonna bait that uppercut everytime, you're gonna play super safe, and you're gonna cheese your opponents every time. You aren't going to do anything fancy, you aren't going to mind fuck your opponent, you're gonna rely on solid strat. No shenanigans. I play Blanka, and in casuals I'll do stupid shit like crossup light kick strong strong xx hop strong grab. That's fancy. In a tournament I'm just gonna grab when I know my opponent won't reversal and I'm gonna rely on mk mk ball dizzy and low fiercing fireball trades. None of that, eventually I can jump over for that fancy dizzy combo shit.

What about MVC2? How often do you see Mags use his low roundhouse infinite? how often do you see more than basic magic series -> LA -> LS -> DHC of doom shit? or more than short short Assist super? You can do lots of funky shit in MVC2, but you never do, because tournaments are basic playing to environments. Meanwhile in casuals, you'll break out your homegrown team green and do fun stuff, but in tournament you aren't gonna take that chance.

So I don't know what you're saying. Wait I do, you only watch videos, and if it doesn't look pretty it's degenerate. We've all seen o.sagat mirrors. They looked pretty stale. But were they degenerate? No.

[FMJaguar]

When you have to draw a distinction between playing to win and playing to have fun you have a problem. Those two goals are supposed to coincide. A game that isn't fun to play isn't a good game.

Here you are telling me that XSF is a great tournament game, just not fun to play in tournaments. Ok, I guess we have a different definition of what a great tournament game is. To me a chore is not great.

Being skilled at anything is certainly a chore at times. Sometimes in XSF your going to have to infinite, sometimes in SF your going to have to trade 30 projectiles, its a part of the game. If someone isn't ready to do their chores, how can they be ready to win?

to an earlier point:

I'll say it again, the farther the tournament game is from the casual game the worse the game is for tournaments. I haven't seen you agree or disagree with that, or suggest what other criteria should be used. Tournament XSF looks like boring crud, as does tournament 3S and CVS2 low-fierce era.

Every competitive game looks different in casual than tournament. A lot of casual matches look different from each other depending on the circumstances. The only way I can see your point is if i cherry pick which matches to count, and which players to count. I don't see a general trend.

As for the question about why would someone not infinite in casual...

Think of it this way, what if there was only one way to play chess? but it was a closed source video game, and because they stopped working on it, you couldn't concede or offer a draw even if it was obvious.

Are you going to throw that away because of that oversight? Or are you going to account for it? In XSF, the players are accounting for a small oversight in what they see as an otherwise good game engine, instead of throwing it all out.

Of course it's an imperfect solution, some people are going to try to take it farther and try to make a non-infinite tournament, and others are going to infinite every chance they get.

What confuses me is that you find this odd, the community has always been this way, about every game, it usually ends when 1) the game dies, or 2) enough people play the game seriously to shut everyone else up and force them to play their way.

XSF didn't take part in the console revolution, but only because both console ports were unacceptable, not because of the actual gameplay.

XSF also hasn't quite died either. It's a good option for the abandoned SF XBL players, and it has a hope of being released as a downloadable saturn game.

[margalis]

I'll let this thread mercifully die at this point.

And start "Is Primal Rage Competitively Playable?" instead. (Answer: at least as much as XSF)

The whole retro-revival thing is rather silly especially given the main argument seems to be "it's like MVC2." Yeah, so is MVC2, which is also a much better game.

At least with a game like VS you can say "hey, this game is actually kind of different than other games you might have played, but still good!" Not "this game is basically a strictly worse version of later games!"

Let me quote the original post for some humor:


2) why is XvSF not being played to the same degree of these other games?


LOL. Is that even a serious question? Hmm...let's see...tough one...

I'll leave it at that, CallMeANewb you can continue to promote XSF unopposed. And honestly I don't care, if you enjoy it more power to you. Let's just not pretend that XSF is some incredible hidden gem that is the greatest thing since sliced bread and deserves to be played as much as better, newer games.

Edit: I just have to point this out, from DogFace himself:



That's why we all play any games. They're fun. Infintes do make the game kinda a headache, but at the last FFA turney, the two opponents would decide to use infinites or not. That's the best we could come up with to keep the game exciting and quasi-balanced.



Yes, that is the mark of a great competitive game!

That said, in a way I admire that. A3 and A2 would both be much better games if people would be willing to play around with this sort of tinkering. Both games died when they could have lived having undergone some adjustment. It is fairly common for Capcom to royally fuck up what would be an otherwise good game with one colossal blunder.

Unfortunately banning infinites is kind of silly and impossible compared to playing A2G, banning V-ism chars or playing with some dip switch settings.

[Shiro_420]

I canèt wait for t8 and to see some footage fomr this years xvsf tourney at evo
then we can shitll over margalis saying is it competive now?

[Shiro_420]

Oh btw heres a question that I been wondering. whos on Torontos team team of 5 for xvsf?

[{PFH}-Lake]

Just wondering does anyone counter storm in XvSF?

[Shiro_420]

mags is your ebst bet. or to try and keep thatbitch form running away with cyc mags chun

[Dasrik]

Dhalsim is great on scrubby Storm. His rubber legs stop her from running away like a dummy.

In real terms, though, Storm with a lead = best character in the game.

[ToXY]

He may be good on a "scrubby runaway storm" but generally Storm is one of the 3 of Sim's worst matchups, also including Wolverine and Magneto.

[KinanO]

daslim vs storm = KO storrn wins

[Dasrik]

No shit, that's why I qualified the statement with "scrubby Storm". And there's more of them than you'd think. A lot of people learn her infinite and Lightning Attack shenanigans and think they're good.

[margalis]

I canèt wait for t8 and to see some footage fomr this years xvsf tourney at evo
then we can shitll over margalis saying is it competive now?

Dogface said:
That's why we all play any games. They're fun. Infintes do make the game kinda a headache, but at the last FFA turney, the two opponents would decide to use infinites or not. That's the best we could come up with to keep the game exciting and quasi-balanced.

The fucking SSBM players play more competitively than you clowns. Seriously. Two opponents decide whether or not to use infinites or not? LO fucking L. If the game needs that to be exciting let it die. Oh wait, it already did - my mistake.

[1hitcombo]

Dogface said:
That's why we all play any games. They're fun. Infintes do make the game kinda a headache, but at the last FFA turney, the two opponents would decide to use infinites or not. That's the best we could come up with to keep the game exciting and quasi-balanced.

The fucking SSBM players play more competitively than you clowns. Seriously. Two opponents decide whether or not to use infinites or not? LO fucking L. If the game needs that to be exciting let it die. Oh wait, it already did - my mistake.

....

[Khiempossible]

Dogface said:
That's why we all play any games. They're fun. Infintes do make the game kinda a headache, but at the last FFA turney, the two opponents would decide to use infinites or not. That's the best we could come up with to keep the game exciting and quasi-balanced.

The fucking SSBM players play more competitively than you clowns. Seriously. Two opponents decide whether or not to use infinites or not? LO fucking L. If the game needs that to be exciting let it die. Oh wait, it already did - my mistake.

look, if you can't hype this game up, just leave the thread, there are some of us here who truly love and enjoy this game. let us have our peace.

on the topic of dhalsim vs. storm

dhalsim has a few basic tactics

- he can drill kick pressure
- he can yoga fire trap you
- he can jump around and do long range poking
- he can slide evade your shit with teleport/slide
- he can tick throw to noogie -> death

that's pretty much the 5 things you have to watch out for from a dhalsim player.

and that's why sim loses to storm.

- sim can't drill you while you're making a wall of flying fierces or chicken nuggets or rice balls in the air

drill kick is only really effective on grounded opponents like chun li, when storm is in the air, be it super jump fierce air dash fierce walls, or super jump ball airdash ball or just chipping with chicken nuggets or triangle jumping, or flying, sim's scariest tactic becomes a 3 hit combo when it works, but usually won't cause you'll be impossible to hit (whiffed drill kick=death)

- sim can't really lock you down with yoga fire/long range poking, cause your air dash and mp ball fuck him up for free

oh jump mk air to air poke? airdash upback rice ball -> teleport glitch -> free pressure/super/infinite

is that a yoga fire? triangle jump punish

- sim has nothing to freely punish with his slide

this applies more as anti charlie game where sim will hk slide under your sonic booms. the one thing to watch out for is if you throw out chicken nuggets, i think it's possible for sim to teleport under you for a free launch. I wouldn't bet on it though, it's never happened to me, and when i've seen sim teleport out of sonic break pressure, he gets a free mixup at best.

it's good to know that you can combo mp ball to hailstorms though, ive done that to jared pilnoy a couple times.

- sim can't tick grab you if you're a) always in his face jumping up and down and around or b) on the other side of the screen where he can't touch you or c) in the air right on top of him fuckin him up.

@ master chibi

on the topic of cammy chun

that's my new team. fuck fucking up 3p dashes, cammy is beastly.

I'm sure an expert could tell you how to beast with her, but here's my take.

cammy doesn't need infinites.

just run around and block shit and make your opponent whiff shit. eventually he's gonna get frustrated and now you can fuck him up. cammy is solid cause she has excellent ways to fuck people up air to air, excellent ways to fuck people up while they're on the ground and excellent ways to deal with their roll.

cammy sucks cause she takes damage like a bent over nerd in a jail washroom and her combo damage is all pretty minimal. to her real damage (infinites and shit) you need some pretty good execution.

for starters though,

jump jab. press jab really early. this is a safe tactic even when it whiffs. if you make contact with an opponent do the first three hits of the magic series (j.jab j.short j.strong) now you can

- land and repeat for a guard break attempt if they blocked it
- land and try and combo it again if they got hit low to the ground
- finish with cannon drill if they get hit

if jump jab whiffs double jump and you can block again.

sometimes you can double jump over them and fuck them up sometimes you want to double jump back cause it's safe and sometimes you'll just double jump straight up cause you don't know what to do, straight jump up and roundhouse on the way down is effective at times too.

if it's a fat character you can do jump jab short strong forward repeat (this is an infinite) if you have the spacing right.

alright, so since jump jab beats a lot of things in the air, a lot of opponents will stay grounded cause they basically can't jump anymore.

now you can jump on them with j.jab j.short j.strong until they figure out how to anti air you. don't obviously jump on them, if they're in any sort of block stun first they probably can't launch you, which means it's a free 3 hit overhead jump in. But you really shouldn't getting launched sucks. I mean j.jab beats a ton of shit, but most of the time you're gonna wanna stay on the ground.

if you and your opponent are grounded you have 2 lines of attack.

dash jab pressure

you can dash jab launch (infinite)
you can dash jab (repeat)
you can dash jab tick throw
you can dash jab low short low forward super
you can dash jab jump jab short strong cannon drill (best on taller characters) which combos.

now your opponent is scared, repeat dash jabs are hard to deal with. if they push block just dash jab again. there's not a whole lot opponents can do.

you can mix this up with dash low short low forward. low forward has a lot of frame advantage. so much so that there's nothing an opponent can do between dash low short low forward low short low forward except push block you out.

if you get push blocked just dash in again, if they don't you can tick to grab, you can try low short low forward cannon drill/super, you can dash then jump jab them whatever.

low short low forward hit confirms to super, so anytime you see that hit cancel to qcf+KK super. if you see them block alot just grab. if they push block too much dash crouch cancel throw. whatever you want. she's like wolverine.

that's the only combo damage you really need. j.jab j.short j.strong xx cannon drill is 3 bars i think. and low short low forward xx cannon drill is pretty close.

the best part though is that after all those combos you get a free OTG attempt. your otg should be dash low short s.roundhouse /\ j.jab > j.short > j.strong, j.jab > j.strong > j.fierce, j.jab > (delay) j.fierce. from there you can

a) infinite heavy weight characters with j.jab j.short j.strong j.forward xN or
b) you can just cannon drill if you're lazy.
c) you can infinite anyone by tagging a roundhouse (corner only) then doing j.jab > short > strong > forward > fierce > roundhouse xN

don't worry about infinites, just stick to air cannon drill. cause after cannon drill you can run in and grab/OTG them again. you only need like 2 OTG combos to kill someone.

your other OTG is low short s.forward s.roundhouse xx cannon drill if you're lazy.

so after you've trained an opponent to roll all your combos (short forward qcfKK super, j.jab > short > strong xx cannon drill, stand roundhouse tiger knee cannon drill, grab) you can now mix them up really dirtily. walk in, but then dash back and chase their roll. do a meaty low short. don't worry about reversals, only scrubs try to reversal this shit, cause you will randomly cross them up depending on when you dashed, when you cancelled, how long your opponents dash is.

from there you can
- low short grab,
- low short low forward super (repeat)
- low short low forward cannon drill without bar

you can even omit dashing back and jump on them which will with good spacing
- will randomly cross them up with crossup j.jab or crossup j.short (against gief you can even cross up j.jab j.short -> free combo)
- not cross them up and just j.jab j.short j.strong cannon drill (repeat)
- j.jab tick
- j.jab low short tick

etc. etc.

you can also jump back late, make your opponent think he can punish you with a launcher, double jump back on his launcher and then fuck him up some more.

that's all of cammy's offensive strategy. i've seen a couple players capable of hit confirming low forwards from max range into super/cannon drill. but that's really hard (you need to cancel early to combo, if you cancel late it wont combo). still though zoning with low forward is pretty solid.

when you're not in a position to be offensive you should just be jump jabbing, double jump back and blocking to annoy your opponent.

even though a lot of players will fuck up infinites on cammy cause she's so light, don't get hit by those things, cause they still do massive amounts of damage.

basic chun li is just get bar, then triple jump/airdash around runway then whore low forward super until someone dies. if you need to be aggressive with chun li dash in low short low forward, walk up low forward, walk back low forward to pester, then randomly do instant air dashes (tap upback 3P) roundhouse for a killer priority randomly 1 or 2 hit randomly cross up overhead.

anti air everything with early s.roundhouse.

that's pretty much all you need to start.

[dog-face]

Dogface said:
That's why we all play any games. They're fun. Infintes do make the game kinda a headache, but at the last FFA turney, the two opponents would decide to use infinites or not. That's the best we could come up with to keep the game exciting and quasi-balanced.

The fucking SSBM players play more competitively than you clowns. Seriously. Two opponents decide whether or not to use infinites or not? LO fucking L. If the game needs that to be exciting let it die. Oh wait, it already did - my mistake.

You don't understand Margalis. This thread and the upcoming tournaments, all of that is fueled by people who want to play XvSF for pure fun. Infinite players are fading, and more and more pure flash and style is coming out. The game was abandoned because of infinites. But take infinites out, and it's a great game. That's why Capcom tried 3 VERSIONS to get it right. But they fucked up, and Capcom moved on.

But this game would have lasted forever. Like ST is for SFers, this would be that to MvC2ers. We all get that you hate this game. We all know by now that hate not just XvSF, but that fact that's there's a truckload of people not only saying it's good, but should be at EVO. You hate that.

Okay, we all get it.

Now stop hating on XvSF.

You're starting to look like a dick now.

-Vic

[{PFH}-Lake]

I thought of wat if the game didnt have any infinites. Cause the whole reason why this game was balanced was cause of the infinites but if you get rid of them doesnt that make the game unbalanced and even still playable?

[CB]

i didn't get a chance to read after i posted 10 days ago, but, Omega red owns.
arturo, come up here again for t8!, aka, taint.

dom't forget, tiers still don't change if you take out infinites....so, it's just longer and more boring.

[margalis]

You don't understand Margalis. This thread and the upcoming tournaments, all of that is fueled by people who want to play XvSF for pure fun. Infinite players are fading, and more and more pure flash and style is coming out. The game was abandoned because of infinites. But take infinites out, and it's a great game. That's why Capcom tried 3 VERSIONS to get it right. But they fucked up, and Capcom moved on.


Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? It sounds like you are agreeing with a lot of posters in this thread and diagreeing with CallMeANewb.

You are saying what I am saying. XSF is a very fun game but played at the highest levels solely to win it becomes kind of crappy. A lot of the fanbase is not interested in outright playing to win because that is just dull. The fun of XSF is not doing the same 3 moves over and over again.

I have no problem with players trying to make a game more fun. I've argued for a long time that we should be more willing to play with dipswitches, ban things, etc. As you point out Capcom is never going to revise the games. Most games get rules tweaks from time to time. We have the power to tweak rules as the players.

Sometimes, like in A3, we just let a game die rather than tweak the rules to make it a better game. Crazy!

If everyone agrees to ban certain things or play with dipswitch settings that is still "playing to win", just with a new set of rules.

Now I do think agreeing not to use infinites could get pretty messy, what happens if someone does 3 iterations and stops? Or 5? or 2? I don't know how you guys handle that. That said, if you can do it more power to you.

Most people here can't understand the simple logic that games need rules tweaks from time to time, and that while Capcom can't provide them we can. No need to throw away a game due to a fixable oversight.

[dArK_rEnAgAdE]

Look you piece of shit. I'm only going to say this once. Xvsf i not dead. It wouldn't have a national tournament if it wa, and it sure the fuck wouldn't be at t8 or evo if it was "dead" so SHUT THE FUCK UP. NO ONE and i mean NO ONE gives to FUCKS what the FUCK you think. we dont care. you get it? we don't care. we don't want to debait with you. we don't LIKE you. we could give a SHIT what yor opinions are and how you feel about xvsf.

your just a silly little bitch barking off trying to be herd and guess what. WE DONT GIVE A SHIT!!

Man i bet you road the blue bus to school, last one picked to play basket ball, got your undies pull up over your head, got your lunch money stolen from you. and now your taking it all out on xvsf. shit some one get this kid a tissue

[Dasrik]

Look you piece of shit. I'm only going to say this once. Xvsf i not dead. It wouldn't have a national tournament if it wa, and it sure the fuck wouldn't be at t8 or evo if it was "dead" so SHUT THE FUCK UP. NO ONE and i mean NO ONE gives to FUCKS what the FUCK you think. we dont care. you get it? we don't care. we don't want to debait with you. we don't LIKE you. we could give a SHIT what yor opinions are and how you feel about xvsf.

your just a silly little bitch barking off trying to be herd and guess what. WE DONT GIVE A SHIT!!

Man i bet you road the blue bus to school, last one picked to play basket ball, got your undies pull up over your head, got your lunch money stolen from you. and now your taking it all out on xvsf. shit some one get this kid a tissue
Holy crap. Fighting games are serious business.

[Shiro_420]

Holy crap. Fighting games are serious business.

seriously hilarious!

[RaiJinKen]

The game was abandoned because of infinites. But take infinites out, and it's a great game. That's why Capcom tried 3 VERSIONS to get it right. But they fucked up, and Capcom moved on.

lol...and you still think such game is worth playing? You all should do just like Capcom and move on.

If this game is really competitive playable, why should you take out infinites to make it great? Don't you think it's ridiculous to limit yourself just to pretend that the game is any good?

Just asking.

[margalis]

Look you piece of shit. I'm only going to say this once. Xvsf i not dead. It wouldn't have a national tournament if it wa, and it sure the fuck wouldn't be at t8 or evo if it was "dead" so SHUT THE FUCK UP. NO ONE and i mean NO ONE gives to FUCKS what the FUCK you think. we dont care. you get it? we don't care. we don't want to debait with you. we don't LIKE you. we could give a SHIT what yor opinions are and how you feel about xvsf.

your just a silly little bitch barking off trying to be herd and guess what. WE DONT GIVE A SHIT!!

Man i bet you road the blue bus to school, last one picked to play basket ball, got your undies pull up over your head, got your lunch money stolen from you. and now your taking it all out on xvsf. shit some one get this kid a tissue

Oh snap!

Should I point you to the title of the thread again? If you don't care, don't ask the question genius. Why do you cry so much when someone answers the question in the title of the thread?

As far as who "road" the blue bus to school, based on your mastery of spelling and grammar I'm going to guess you.

Shit man I got reamed by a retarded 5th grader, I feel like an idiot now!

If you don't care so much, stop whining already. Makes sense no?

[Khiempossible]

we had another tournament in ottawa. It was highly competitive. We had a good turnout, so I guess it was playable. Our best players came and peformed as consistantly as they normally do, so I guess it was skilled. Everyone had a fucking blast, so I guess it wasn't degenerate.

see here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=128637

see the consistancy here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=125691

and i think i have a couple vids. not sure yet.

[dog-face]

lol...and you still think such game is worth playing? You all should do just like Capcom and move on.

If this game is really competitive playable, why should you take out infinites to make it great? Don't you think it's ridiculous to limit yourself just to pretend that the game is any good?

Just asking.


Wow, a new member checking out the XSF thread. You just joined?

I think you and Margalis have a lot in common. I'm sure the two of you will be friends.

And the reason the game is "worth playing" is because I have "fun" when I play it.

Competitively Playable? Look man, if there was an infinite dipswitch, then I'd turn it off. Just like some A3 lovers would turn off CC Infinites. But I don't get that option. So you're telling me I shouldn't play the game because something like infinites got past Capcom. Dood, they didn't even plan the game like that, it's just a byproduct of the burgeoning combo system they developed.

So if I enjoy the game, I'm going to play it for fun. Occasionally I find others who play it for fun, and I want to see how I do against them. Hopefully, we both agree not to infnite. We love XSF, and aren't going to abandon because it's broken. I still have fun playing it.

And you want to ask me why I limit myself "to pretend that the game is good." I would be limiting myself if I infinited every game I played. In tournament, XSF has problems. We all get that. So what are you trying to prove? That we should all abandon XvSF? Why?

Why should we stop playing a game that we enjoy?

The fact that you ask that question makes you stupid.

-Vic

[SaBrE]

i <3 vic!

[MegamanDS]

vics on a rampage in all the xmvsf threads!

[SaBrE]

and he never gets mad. this is like the 2nd time in my life i seen him get mad. and ive known him for almost 12 years

[Shiro_420]

Lol go xvsf gooooo! mAN t8 GONNA BE ON FIRE!

[margalis]

And the reason the game is "worth playing" is because I have "fun" when I play it.

...


What all your posts amount to is that XSF isn't competitively playable unless you force it to be by changing the rules.

Which is fine, but let's all be clear on what you are saying.


In tournament, XSF has problems. We all get that


LOL. I love how you can argue with us while agreeing with everything we are saying. Do you not get that you are actually agreeing with me (us) and disagreeing with CallMeANewb?

And again, changing the rules is fine to me. But unaltered XSF is a mess. You seem to agree with that, so I'm not sure what we are arguing about...

[Shiro_420]

why is this thread so boring to rerad. the whole good part of the debait was is gone. and now all it is is srk vs some nerd. its not even a good debait any more. close thread plz

[margalis]

Lrn 2 spell.

[Khiempossible]

I actually liked how it was reopened. now we can continue to pump posts into and keep the game hyped. Maybe I should change the name to something else, then treat it like the old Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo in the house! thread.

[dog-face]

LOL. I love how you can argue with us while agreeing with everything we are saying. Do you not get that you are actually agreeing with me (us) and disagreeing with CallMeANewb?

...

"argue with us?" Who is "us?" You're talking like Venom.

You got two accounts or something man?

Or you mean the guy that just joined this month that's agreeing with you?

And what is the argument? That the game is not competitvely playable? Um, yeah, I talked about that in my first post. I said it's all up to the players.

What you and I are arguing about is you being some sort of Turney Quality Police Officer who feels it necessary to slam XvSF as an EVO game. Save your breath, and when Wizard actually decides to add it, then you ( or "us" or Venom) can post in here 10 x a day.

But I'll tell you and CallmeaNewb and this whole thread, XvSF will never be an official EVO game.

-Vic

PS: When you post shit like this, "The fucking SSBM players play more competitively than you clowns. Seriously. Two opponents decide whether or not to use infinites or not? LO fucking L. If the game needs that to be exciting let it die. Oh wait, it already did - my mistake." you are officially a loser. You have nothing better to do than be a prick?

You are now officialy known as Margalolis

[Maj]

and he never gets mad. this is like the 2nd time in my life i seen him get mad. and ive known him for almost 12 years

Is Vic really mad? I dunno. Annoyed, definately. But who wouldn't be?

I've never seen Vic get mad, so i guess i wouldn't know what it looks like. Problem is, when you're dealing with internet posts, you can't really tell the difference between someone who's mad and someone who's apathetically talking shit to a forum troll.

You know what? I'm gonna have to require proof of anger before i make the judgement. The only way anyone is gonna convince me that Vic got mad is by showing me random furniture from his house with 3 claw marks on it.

[MegamanDS]

oh hes mad alright.

Margalis just got margadissed

[margalis]

If you are going to cry and whine when someone answers your question, don't ask the question. It's that simple.

I didn't create a thread to slam XSF, I answered the question posed by the thread starter.

Yeah I suppose that's all mean of me, but you get what you ask for. I'm not invading a random XSF strategy thread to point out that XSF sucks.

[Shiro_420]

but you didn't answer the question. we're saying your wrong, and so is the majority of people here...

[Mixup]

all it takes is dedicated players and hype gameplay

fuck this boshit argument

[Shiro_420]

Well perhaps my little post here will shed some light on this discussion....

The thread topic was asking “is xvsf competitively playable?”. .. I’d like to think any game that has competitive players willing to play is competitive lol..
But I think a better question should be “is xvsf a good competitive game” because obviously the over whelming supprt for the xvsf scene proves that it is still a very competitive game. But is it a “good competitive game?”

I wouldn’t say so. The fact that every character has an infinite and other minor things doesn’t nagate the fact that it’s a horribly broken game. Sure doing cool combos is fun but we all know any scrub can make it far in this game just using basic infinites. All fun casuals aside, watching a match where one guy suts and does a 200% infinite sure the hell isn’t any fun at all. In fact it makes you dislike the game. It’s like watching the A-Cho a3 matche’s. No one likes sitting there watching crouch cancel infinites. Its boring and makes the game look tasteless.

Another thing to be considered is how deep is xvsf? I can say with a straight face that you have very very few options in the game as it is.

1: rolling
2: push block
3: rush down
4: run away
5: team counter (like an alpha counter)

and that’s about it. A few other things can be named, but a lot of shit is useless to use. There’s no point in using a reset since there is no combo cap, no point in using a team strategy since one character can just infinite you to death.

The game in a tournament is as plan as it gets. So IMO is xvsf a good competitive game? No
Is xvsf competitively playable? Yes
Will I continue to support and (try to) attend every tournament held for xvsf? BET YOUR ASS I WILL

[Khiempossible]

Well perhaps my little post here will shed some light on this discussion....

The thread topic was asking “is xvsf competitively playable?”. .. I’d like to think any game that has competitive players willing to play is competitive lol..
But I think a better question should be “is xvsf a good competitive game” because obviously the over whelming supprt for the xvsf scene proves that it is still a very competitive game. But is it a “good competitive game?”

I wouldn’t say so. The fact that every character has an infinite and other minor things doesn’t nagate the fact that it’s a horribly broken game. Sure doing cool combos is fun but we all know any scrub can make it far in this game just using basic infinites. All fun casuals aside, watching a match where one guy suts and does a 200% infinite sure the hell isn’t any fun at all. In fact it makes you dislike the game. It’s like watching the A-Cho a3 matche’s. No one likes sitting there watching crouch cancel infinites. Its boring and makes the game look tasteless.


scrubs don't land infinites. so i don't know how a scrub is gonna 200% you. that aside, this complaint is legitimate. I don't have issues being infinited. maybe you do and find it boring. but that's your say.

this shit here is wha