Have you ever learned a counter-character for nothing?

[Maj]

Let's say you want to learn how to beat a really strong character like Blanka. Once you play against him and lose a bunch of times, you try to remember what you were getting hit by and then you go into training mode and try to find ways to counter that thing.

Problem is, it takes quite a bit of time before you're convinced that you need to pay attention to any given character. CvS2 has so much character/groove variety. I mean, i actually remember spending time in training mode trying to find ways around Haohmaru's s.MP and i don't need to tell you how much of a non-entity he turned out to be.

Also, i've been playing CvS2 Guile since the game came out (minus a few months where my bidness team was A-Iori/Rolento/Ken-2) but it took like 2-3 years for me to become convinced that Guile was top tier. At first i thought he was good but that he was never going to overcome his signature weaknesses.

I'm sure some of the counter-character specialists like Viscant would tell you stories about learning a whole new character just to counter one character (N-Ryu? A-Rugal? S-Gief? Akuma? Athena?) only to have that character fade into obscurity.

There's just so much shit in this game that it's hard to spot the patterns - in terms of which characters are legitimate well-rounded threats and which characters are simply one-trick-ponies that die after you solve the one or two problems they present.

So how many of you know how to play some obscure character just for the sake countering some other obscure character that nobody plays anymore?

My Zangief will own up Nakoruru players! Though, CvS1 should get most of the blame for that.

[IGP-Slipgater]

Never bothered to counter-char, I've always thought that's weak.

[Maj]

What if you play a P-Groove team as your main? Is it still weak to have a C-Groove team to use against A-Groove top tier? People who spend time learning 10 characters instead of 4 characters deserve props too.

I mean, these days i mostly play one team no matter what, but i've always respected Viscant's crazy original counter teams.

[IGP-Slipgater]

It's cool enough to watch, especially in marvel with the random low-tier counter teams. But if you play p-groove, then PLAY p-groove. I'm not going to try and speak for anyone, but I feel that I don't learn what I need to about winning with the characters I enjoy playing if I go in for that counter stuff.

[Jaguarandine]

I think cvs2 has come to the point where you must have a really strong single-team mindset in order to win. Counter characters, pretty much by definition, aren't as strong as your main characters. This is why I think such characters won't get as far anymore. I think the best bet is to stick to a team and groove the whole time and work out their weaknesses. If your troubles against Cammy or Blanka are neverending, well then maybe you need to drop your R2 Dan for Sagat.

From my observations, most good players have around 1-2 backup characters for when things go wrong (except Combofiend, who's special). Most of the time they switch only when they're desperate; then they usually end up losing anyway. Honestly, I think switching a groove or character mid-match in cvs2 is one of the worst mistakes you can make because you must also switch your mindset. Only certain people have that ability (Ricky, Choi, Combofiend), and it's definetly not something an intermediate would want to try.

Basically, I'm trying to say the tiers are a little more rigid than they were in years past. As a result, counter characters don't work as good as they used to.

[randomsuper]

i think you're better off just learning to fight a bad match up than switching a character. when i'm countered, i just try to play as safe as possible and try not to give anything away. basically, i turtle my ass off until i get a chance to get some damage in.

[tetsuye00]

I think we've moved away from using specific counter characters. Instead, I think everyone is trying to learn solid characters, and which characters they counter.

What I mean is that I don' play Hibiki because she has good match ups against Guile and Ken, but I've know that she does. I can move her to a different spot if I need that counter, but I'm only changing the roder of the team. That seems to be the method now, 3 solid characters where order can be changed when needed.

[noodleman]

yea, i think counter characters are slightly overrated. Even when it's a counter situation in CvS2, it's not so one-sided like ST imo. I think it's more important to recognize the weaknesses in some match ups so you can play around them accordingly.

[ZenFire]

I've never learned a character to counter another, so I can't really relate to this. I only really started getting serious about this game until after RC's started dominating, before that I just picked characters I thought looked awesome while losing. My character choices are still based purely on whim and personal taste, but I digress.

IMO learning counter characters is never for naught, because it teaches you stuff about the game you can apply elsewhere because of the similarities between characters. Not only that, but if you ever come across someone that plays obscure characters you'll have a better idea of what's in store.

[FullMetalRoss]

For a long time I was learning P-groove vega, as my counter to other P-groove vega centric teams, and it worked for a long time but I still couldn't make it past there last characters with the rest of my P team (usually, cammy + sagat) So now basically I just have P-Vega as a fun casual character.

The wierd thing is though opposite of what zen fire says happened to me I really didn't learn much more about vega from playing him myself as my vega is very rush down oriented I stay on top of my opponent using low jump and throw mixups to kick ass and I really haven't played another vega like that.

So I don't know I think really the moral to all that typing is that I learned basically nothing from my counter character experience and seemed to have improved more just by using my default c-groove based teams.

[Legendary Gokou]

Even when it's a counter situation in CvS2, it's not so one-sided like ST imo.

I agree. Aside from the match ups like Blanka being able to RC ball all day with little Ryu can do about it, usually the character who doesn't match up well still has a decent chance ; just at a disadvantage.


As for playing P groove, I have a backup C groove team that I learned just in case there is an A-groover who is doing a good job of exploiting the grooves weakness. (mainly no alpha counter). I've done what I can to cover it (either baiting activations or parrying them since most start off with a low).

[Viscant]

I know that I made half of SHGL pick up Mai just to stop my Chang that was on a rampage when the game first came out. That's probably the best example for this particular question. Other than one or two guest appearances where I use him to beat a turtle Sagat, Chang isn't even in the game anymore.

I also sat down for a few hours to learn Athena to stop Guile/Balrog players. A lot of CvS1 players gravitated towards them early on and Athena handles both of them mostly. I don't think I've played a Balrog in at least 4 years, but I can probably still play that match.

And I think everyone sat down with S-Zangief at some point after RC came out. It made too much sense not to at least try once or twice. Theoretically that should do a lot better against RC elec, it just doesn't actually work in practice. In the process I found out that S-Zangief actually does fine against Rugal, another character who isn't in the game anymore.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[geadom]

I agree. Aside from the match ups like Blanka being able to RC ball all day with little Ryu can do about it, usually the character who doesn't match up well still has a decent chance ; just at a disadvantage.



Even that match is that loopsided. Ryu can RUN and build meter (C-Ryu), and Reversal lvl2 any ball or Lvl3 :p. Also, st.HP stops ALMOST ALL blanka pokes :p

Is a Reaaally bad match, but not impossible.

:wink:

[Nick T.]

Even that match is that loopsided. Ryu can RUN and build meter (C-Ryu), and Reversal lvl2 any ball or Lvl3 :p. Also, st.HP stops ALMOST ALL blanka pokes :p

Is a Reaaally bad match, but not impossible.

:wink:

reversal lvl 1 works also.

But his lvl 3 fireball super doesn't even do half life damage.
a lvl THREE!!!
Not worth it

[FlashMetroid]

anyone who says counter charactering is useless is a fool

switching a character makes a huge difference in a match

[randomsuper]

not always petey. only if you are actually good with that character. 2 players of equal skill and you really know that character, then yeah. otherwise, it's not worth it. in marvel it's a different story. think carlos and his a sak shennanigans and what happens to him.

[FullMetalRoss]

reversal lvl 1 works also.

But his lvl 3 fireball super doesn't even do half life damage.
a lvl THREE!!!
Not worth it


Lvl1 won't work everytime, you need to block it a little late so blanka doesn't bounce back as far...
well it's either that or difference between a 1 frame reversal and a two frame reversal.

You can also block and jump after round house, put thats hard.

[noodleman]

talking about the specific match up between ryu and blanka seems off topic, but this is the perfect example of how the countermatch doesn't really work.

if ryu is in c/n/a/s(for completeness) groove, he can roll/dodge to avoid rc balls.
if he's in p/k he can parry/jd and punish.

All of them can stay out of the invincibility range and punish according (cr.mp, dp, etc), provided your opponent is stupid enough to spam rc balls from that far away.

cr.mp also stuffs blanka's fp slide iirc.

kabukimono, i think one of the blocks (stand/crouching) gives less reel back distance, so reversal lvl1 super is possible (can't remember if it's standing or crouching block). It has something to do with the hitbox getting wider when a character is crouching or something...

either way, even though it's still a bad match for ryu, I don't see it as so one-sided that it's impossible for ryu to win.

[FlashMetroid]

not always petey. only if you are actually good with that character. 2 players of equal skill and you really know that character, then yeah. otherwise, it's not worth it. in marvel it's a different story. think carlos and his a sak shennanigans and what happens to him.

what happen to him he lost becuase he counter picked? so by your logic your saying if he didnt counter pick he would of won?....no

using carlos as an example is meaningless considering the fact that you beat him because you were just better than him not becuase he was stupid and tried to counter pick

Counter picking is good but for some reason people think if you counter pick your automatically gonna win...no first of if both players are at the same level and you counter pick your still not gonna win everytime but its def more in your favor if you do

[randomsuper]

that's what i mean. counter picking doesn't guarantee anything. you're better off playing a character you play really well, than a counter character you aren't all that great with. you just like to argue with me.

[FlashMetroid]

that's what i mean. counter picking doesn't guarantee anything. you're better off playing a character you play really well, than a counter character you aren't all that great with. you just like to argue with me.

Well the point of LEARNING A COUNTER CHARACTER is to learn how to use it correctly obviously your not gonna pick a charcter that you dont know how to use just becuase of the match up

Ok so a person who plays C Honda, Ken, Sag vs A Vega, Bison, Blanka

should he or should he not switch to lets say blanka or rolento?

Like i said all it does is improve your chances

[randomsuper]

the reality is, sometimes just knowing how to use a character doesn't automatically make you good with them. i know how to use blanka and can win with him, but i don't really go to him seriously because i know i'll get peaced out easy. my point is, you are better off using characters you are great with, than playing a counter character just for the counter match up.

[noodleman]

i think the time spend in learning the counter character can be better spent at learning how to negate the disadvantages and play around them with your "main" characters.

your backup team will never be as strong as your main team, for the simple reason that you will never play your backup team as often.

[randomsuper]

i'd rather just switch my order if i can't win.

[FlashMetroid]

the reality is, sometimes just knowing how to use a character doesn't automatically make you good with them. i know how to use blanka and can win with him, but i don't really go to him seriously because i know i'll get peaced out easy. my point is, you are better off using characters you are great with, than playing a counter character just for the counter match up.

Thats for you becuase you dont play more than like 4 characters seriously

For a person like me that actually knows how to play more than just my main team its a smart idea for me to counter

Like I said before obviously your not gonna pick a charcter that you dont know how to use just becuase of the match up

[noodleman]

it might be good for you flash, but when you get to a certain point, some of your teams are going to outshine the rest of the characters that you know how to use. There's just no way for someone to have two teams of equal strength, unless they're really similar (A-vega/sak/bison/blanka for example), even then you'd probably be better off with one of the teams over another, so there's really no point in picking counter characters.

i think that this is one of the reasons that all top tier players stick with one team. another is that the top tier characters have little to no problems with counter characters.

[FlashMetroid]

lets give an exmaple

He plays 2 Different teams

C vega, blanka, sag and A rolento, vega, sakura

thats what justin does is he not a top player?

Or how about

A rock, rolento, eagle and K ken, rock, cammy

Combofiend isnt he a top player aswell?

also for the record it is very possible for a person to have 2 teams of equal strength

[noodleman]

lets give an exmaple

He plays 2 Different teams

C vega, blanka, sag and A rolento, vega, sakura

thats what justin does is he not a top player?

Or how about

A rock, rolento, eagle and K ken, rock, cammy

Combofiend isnt he a top player aswell?

also for the record it is very possible for a person to have 2 teams of equal strength
haha, got me there. But doesn't combofiend stick to k-groove now as his "main"? and i'm pretty sure Justin's main team is C-Vega/Blanka/Sagat. I've seen him play A-groove every once in a while, but that usually is just for shits and giggles.

[randomsuper]

well, i never see top japanese players switch. they're the best in the world because they learn to play with what they like and make it work. it might work for justin and combo, but i don't know about the rest of the world. or at least not at that level. the level you play at has a lot to do with it too. it just depends how you want to look at it. do you want to be able to switch up with several teams or characters or just play one team and learn to wreck anything with it? personally, i think you're better off having one go team, but whatever works for the individual player is the best answer i guess.

[FlashMetroid]

haha, got me there. But doesn't combofiend stick to k-groove now as his "main"? and i'm pretty sure Justin's main team is C-Vega/Blanka/Sagat. I've seen him play A-groove every once in a while, but that usually is just for shits and giggles.

nah justin uses it mainly for KP players which is...a counter lol

Well in japan its probably more of like an honor system but for the most parts the best players pick characters that pretty much have no bad match ups anyway

Its a fact that counters exist and they work wether you want to use them or not is up to you

[randomsuper]

iyo, otk, dan, makoto, bari, shiro, are guys that don't switch (as far as i know) and rape, whatever the match up. like i said, i don't think it's an honor thing. it's more like they play what they are best with no matter what.

[FlashMetroid]

damn I already said its up to the person and you still have to disagree wether you want to admit it or not what I said is a fact what your saying is just your opinion

Counters exist - fact

[Master Chibi]

I picked up counter characters because after a certain point I just got flat out sick of playing A-groove motherfuckers all the time. In reality I like playing them much more then I ever did when my team was K Vega, Cammy, Blanka or what have you.

One of them I wasn't aware of, but lord has it ever fucking helped (K-Mai [Mai in general] countering A-Sak). Holy fuck I love that match up so god damn much. It's like go ahead, try and get in bitch. Waste your activation.

I mean seriously, if someone picks A-Vega, Sak, Bison, you bet your ass I'll be picking K-Nak, Mai, and Blanka. Sure, they can pick up on it if they know what I'm doing, but fuck that, look who you're picking motherfucker, damn.

Thus far I go with what I know. Nak for Vega, Mai for Sakura / Hibiki, Athena for Cammy, Balrog for Sagat, and Blanka for everyone else. Rolento gives me the most trouble (GO FIGURE), and I tend to put Blanka in the middle of said teams even if it eschews the counter character order, because hell, it's Blanka.

I also like Guile in general.

:D

[randomsuper]

the only fact is that no one ever said counters don't exist. the question is whether it's better to stick with a team you're comfortable with or go for the counter. and i said that it's up to the player a couple of posts ago. so what's your point? you agreed with what i said, so how is it even possible to disagree with you when you're just repeating what i originally said?

you say top players pick characters that have no bad match ups, and i point out top players that do, but still win. so what does that tell you? yeah, countering works, but it's still a completely viable tactic to actually stick with a team and countering is not necessarily the best strategy, at least in cvs2. this all goes back to my first point, which is, IT'S ALL UP TO THE PLAYER. thanks for seeing things my way.

[SanGye]

Just curious but what are considered the best counters against Vega, Sak (besides K-Mai), Blanka, and Sagat?

[gridman]

vega - cammy
sak - sagat (5-5), eagle
Blanka - vega? cammy does well
sagat - guile does well, vega (5-5)

[geadom]

Blanka - Any Hibiki, A-Sakura
Sagat - Guile, Vega, Blanka (against non small jump Sagat's) Chunners
Sakura - Vega, Mai
Vega - I don't hell know, but Geese can damage him a TON if he gets in. Maybe ROCK?

On an (un?)related note, i lost a ST tournament 2 weeks ago for counterpicking and SUCKIN'BALLS w/ the counter character.

I think New/intermediate players shouls stick ALL THE DAMM TIME TO ONLY ONE TEAM AND GROOVE. We're not Flash, neither Metroids, nor Justins or Fiends..

[Buktooth]

i switch characters not to counter, but to avoid terrible counter matches (morrigan sucks)

[geadom]

Buk, why you don't play Chun/Vice more often? Also, N-Sagat R2 is the hottness.. haven't you tried it?

Oh, and sticking to the point: Who counters Morrigan? Ken?

[SanGye]

Buk, why you don't play Chun/Vice more often? Also, N-Sagat R2 is the hottness.. haven't you tried it?

Oh, and sticking to the point: Who counters Morrigan? Ken?

I believe Buk's Chun was a counter-character from the vids I saw way back, 0_o never seen a vid of Buk playing Vice.

I can't believe I forgot this one but who counters Bison? Hibiki?

[fateXd2]

lol bison usually eats hibiki.

[FlashMetroid]

the only fact is that no one ever said counters don't exist. the question is whether it's better to stick with a team you're comfortable with or go for the counter. and i said that it's up to the player a couple of posts ago. so what's your point? you agreed with what i said, so how is it even possible to disagree with you when you're just repeating what i originally said?

you say top players pick characters that have no bad match ups, and i point out top players that do, but still win. so what does that tell you? yeah, countering works, but it's still a completely viable tactic to actually stick with a team and countering is not necessarily the best strategy, at least in cvs2. this all goes back to my first point, which is, IT'S ALL UP TO THE PLAYER. thanks for seeing things my way.

Your saying that its not worth picking a counter character when it is assuming you know how to play the character

No one ever said you cant just stick to your team and work it out but the thread is about counter picking and it clearly is worth it and my example earlier in the thread shows you an example of a perfect situation where someone should/would switch

All those players you named dont even win I bet if they counter picked their bad match ups they would win alot more

[FullMetalRoss]

Counter picking is generally in my opinion a viable option.

For instance, if you play a p-groove team (like say team makoto or whatever) That team is really, really, really, good at playing to basically all of p-grooves strengths (and if your not into the whole kyo thing always switch in sagat and that team is still beastly)

Now if you come up dead even, and I mean you and the person your playing are the exact same skill level, and they play some cheezy a-groove team, like A-rolento, or vega (for meter), Sak, R2 Blanka, the matches will generally be close but I bet 7 outta 10 times you'll probably end up losing causing you took were forced to block a custom that eventually guard crushed you and you lost some life, and then they run away and p-groove (basically the least mobile groove) can't really do much to stop it, then they get meter again and hey same situation you get chipped and crushed and comboed blah blah blah. Now lets say you just happen to learn the dynamics of that same team, maybe switch it around a bit say C- Vega, Cammy R2Sagat and now the match is pretty dead even I'd say, it could definetly go either way as long as your smart about it. And then against everyone else you can rock them with your hot p-groove skills. Or whatever. So basically Flash is right, counters exist if you are good enough to play your character in P, with a little adjusting you could play in C and win those bad matchups so on and so forth.

Of course countering also isn't for everyone, people like to think it's dirty or unfair or some other such bullshit.... But hey if it gets you wins that do it, just make sure you don't get counter countered or some bs cause if you lost the first, won the second, you might just get fucked in the third cause your counter team (ala some of viscant crazy counter teams) Might just get countered hard.

[SanGye]

lol bison usually eats hibiki.

Guess I interpreted that wrong, lemme restate it, what counters Bison?
What counters Hibiki?

Thanks in advance.

[box]

Guess I interpreted that wrong, lemme restate it, what counters Bison?
What counters Hibiki?

Thanks in advance.


Bison doesn't have too many counters. I think Blanka usually does well against him. But Bison's a-groove comeback factor puts him on even ground with everybody in the game so nobody has a big advantage over him.

Hibiki loses to Vega, Sakura, Bison, Cammy, Rock...

[Viscant]

On counter matches:

For Vega, I've had good success using Nakoruru against him. A/N/K grooves all work out. I suspect that N/K grooves are best for her (great short jump, great run speed) but since I choke the super combo almost every single time I try it, my best Nako is A groove. Once you make him block the bird you can get in easily with either dash or run. From there you have decent close pokes (stand jab, low strong) you can combo off of easily and a crossup he has trouble with. It's not a perfect match, but it gets the job done more often than not.

For Hibiki, the only matches I ever don't want to play are against K/P Sagat and Bison. Other groove Sagats I think Hibiki is strongly favored in. I've been told that she has problems with Vega but since I only play Hibiki in K groove, it's not so much of a problem for me personally.

For Bison I've always had best success with Chun or Cammy and I don't even play either of them very well. It's hard to say who counters Bison because he's two different characters. Any of about 15-20 characters will do fine on him without meter. Bison with meter probably doesn't have any counters. Ideally you want someone with a fast walk speed so you can throw his spacing off and force him to whiff a poke or make a mistake trying for 1 hit scissors and then kill him from there, so that's why I've always felt best about Cammy.
Personally though, I believe that Bison doesn't really have a lot of counter characters.

Counter charactering is more difficult in CvS2 than in other games because most people only play 1 groove (or only feel tournament capable with 1 groove). So even if you find a good matchup that you think is strongly in your favor, you might not ever be able to take advantage of it. Say you like N-Iori against Honda (a match I actually like a lot and is fairly easy to break down). It doesn't matter as strongly in CvS2 as it would in any other game because nobody plays N groove in tournament. So instead of straight countering, you just go with 3 strong characters that don't really have bad matches. It's another of those built in features of CvS2 that make you pick Sagat whether you wanted to or not.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[GunterJPN]

well, i never see top japanese players switch.

Japanese tournament rules require one team throughout, and they are all single-elimination. You are allowed to switch order and ratio, but not your characters.

And here, Rugal, Chang, and hell, even Haohmaru (at least in casuals) are still in the game... :lovin:

[randomsuper]

that's a pretty good rule. makes me want to play in japan even more now. thanks for the info.

[tetsuye00]

On counter matches:
...It's another of those built in features of CvS2 that make you pick Sagat whether you wanted to or not.

Bane of my existence. I now play Sagat because I "have to", not because I actually like playing him.

[Ouroborus]

viscant, did u invented the 50/50 super with yamazaki after a knockdown

[D@RU]

Very interesting subject.

Just going to answer according to the topic question...
I actually am often getting my R2 Rugal raped by blanka, but i stick to my C guile-Sagat-Rugal team because I like them.
Sometimes I feel like i really don't have any chances of winning, and start thinking about switching for cammy, (which work quite well against blanka when i use her), but i end up feeling bored to play with her. I don't like the character.
So i go back to my previous team and training again and again. Switching order and/or ratio is the best option i used so far.

I think it is absurd to blame people who play just for counter, strategy is part of any fighting game after all. So i don't think it's a bad idea at all to play counter character, but this solution wouldn't work for ME^^ I would just feel like i gave up on my characters. Maybe a stupid kind of honor i know :D

[Mihai]

The counter character/team mentality has existed since the dawn of SF, and although the trend has been single character/team for as long as I can remember, that doesn't mean the former is any less useful. Sticking to one team/character tends to be the predominant choice because of the following:

1. identity
Most players want (subconsciously or not) to be well known, and a huge part of that is a unique identity. Character/team/color is all part of that. It's an ego thing IMO.

2. comfort
Most players also feel a lot more comfortable sticking to one character/team and learning all the match ups. This is just common sense. Similar to how you won't see Cro Cop go for the take down often, you won't see Bas going K-groove, even if he theoretically has a better chance of beating a C-groove team.

3. tradition

It's just the normal thing to do, and has been for the past decade. Almost every top-tier player has one main team that he is known for. This isn't going to change anytime soon. Having said that...

I believe strongly that counter characters/teams are more efficient than the traditional system. Realistically? The traditional system is better, but that's just because there aren't a lot of people willing to use multiple characters/teams because it's risky in the sense that it has no real history. Who has ever used this system to win or even place well at any major tournament? If any, not many. But that doesn't really prove that the traditional system is better, it just goes to show that popularity and tradition will always triumph over something risky/new...and I use the term new lightly, since counter characters have existed forever now, it's just that you don't see many people use them.

Anyway, onto the meat and potatoes. If you look at a game like CVS2, in my eyes, I see the counter system broken down like this:

C > A > K > C

Keep in mind, that IMO, the counter character (CC) mentality holds up well AS LONG AS YOU STICK TO TOP-TIER. There are plenty of examples where a lower tier character can counter a top-tier one, but that's mainly on paper, and the inherent qualities of a top-tier character can often be too much for this supposed counter. In CVS2, I believe those qualities are: good supers/customs, a LOT of supers/customs (C/A/K all get tons of super opportunities), and good pokes.

Now, here's what I believe:

C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat > A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega
A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega > K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat
K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat > C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat

A strategically chosen mix of any of the groove's best (IMO) characters beats a team of the groove it counters. For example, IMO C-Honda/Sagat/Blanka2 beats A-Sak/Bison/Blanka2, mainly because C-Honda > A-Sak, and C-Sagat > A-Bison. A-Blanka beats C-Blanka IMO, but it's pretty close, and a lot of the problems other grooves have trouble beating A is because A-Blanka pretty much has no bad matchups.

Now, note that I didn't choose some random low-tier character to counter A, because IMO that's just incredibly unrealistic. As I said before, the inherent strengths the top-tier have is too much for even a paper counter to deal with.

Basically, CVS2 in my eyes is broken down into that set of three (C/A/K), and the counter process first starts with groove selection, than with team dynamics.

Now, I've also applied this to other games, for instance, in 3S, I believe that all you really need is Chun, Ken, Makoto, and Yun, who all counter specific characters HARD, with Chun having the most counter matchups. In Alpha3, it basically breaks down to V-Akuma/Charlie/Chun/Gief/Sak and A/V-Sim. In ST, you have Sim, Vega, Rog and O. Sagat.

Essentially, it all comes down to countering with the established top-tier, but it's the matchups of the top-tier that can create the hardest counters for any other character in the game.

[gridman]

Excellent, excelltn post Mihai. Couldnt agree any more

[wepeel]

March 2007? Where have you been??? Welcome to the forums. Nice post :tup:

[tetsuye00]

Overall I agree with what is said, but I want to put forward that the characters listed should not be the only ones thought about.

What is listed are some of the best characters in the game, but most of the important upper-mid tiers are missing. Honda, Guile, and Chun are great, but not necessarily more important or more played than Ken, Kyo, Iori, and Rolento.

I know you are emphasizing the groove strengths, but some of the macth-up you have still don't fly. C-Sagat doesn't counter A-Vega, it works the other way around. Like wise you'll almost never see a C-Honda versus A-Sakura, as few people play Honda competatively.

I appauld your principles, but what I see happening in play doesn't match-up. Outside of A groove I see mostly CBS varients, mostly based on play style and character preference. I guess the longer I play CVS and spend time in the community, the less theory actually stands up.

[Mihai]

March 2007? Where have you been??? Welcome to the forums. Nice post :tup:

Lol...I been here since 2001. This is Geese. Thx tho.

Overall I agree with what is said, but I want to put forward that the characters listed should not be the only ones thought about.

What is listed are some of the best characters in the game, but most of the important upper-mid tiers are missing. Honda, Guile, and Chun are great, but not necessarily more important or more played than Ken, Kyo, Iori, and Rolento.

I know you are emphasizing the groove strengths, but some of the macth-up you have still don't fly. C-Sagat doesn't counter A-Vega, it works the other way around. Like wise you'll almost never see a C-Honda versus A-Sakura, as few people play Honda competatively.

I appauld your principles, but what I see happening in play doesn't match-up. Outside of A groove I see mostly CBS varients, mostly based on play style and character preference. I guess the longer I play CVS and spend time in the community, the less theory actually stands up.

I don't think A-Vega counters C-Sagat at all. It has to do with damage and opportunities, which are both in Sagat's favor. While Vega can theoretically keep him out, tourney matches have shown that once any of the heavy hitters open Vega up, it's basically game over for him, since he takes damage badly, and he can't make comebacks. And people playing CBS is just a testament to what I said about people sticking with what works. I'm not even going to accuse people of not innovating, because I'm all for doing whatever it takes to win, but I don't see how the stuff I posted is theory. On the contrary, I tried to be as realistic as possible. As for characters that are MIA, trust me, I thought about that, and it wasn't without hesitation that I excluded them. I do use C-Ken, or used to at least, but I don't think he is top-tier in C, and I KNOW tons of people will disagree with me, since he is a staple of C groove, and has been for the past few years (big thanks to Daigo/Dan/Choi for that). And I also know that there are beasts who can ravage people with Kyo (Makoto), Iori (buk), and Rolento (forget the big names), I just don't think they can do anything better than the characters I posted. Kyo is best in P (imo), and that already is a big limitation which I think tends to be overlooked when judging some characters, Iori (as proved by buk) can be a beast in N, but while buk is a very good player (and he's one of the players who's vids I enjoy watching the most), I just don't think Iori can cut it. Don't confuse player skill with character potency. Finally, Rolento can be very annoying, and even do some damage when he's on a hot streak (ambiguous crossups mainly), but he gets cut down quickly (like Vega) if he gets pressured/pushed into a corner, he doesn't trade well (with his anti-air strong, for example), and it's hard for him to make a comeback (once again, same weakness as Vega, but Vega has other things going for him that elevate him well above Rolento imo).

[SanGye]

Overall I agree with what is said, but I want to put forward that the characters listed should not be the only ones thought about.

What is listed are some of the best characters in the game, but most of the important upper-mid tiers are missing. Honda, Guile, and Chun are great, but not necessarily more important or more played than Ken, Kyo, Iori, and Rolento.

I know you are emphasizing the groove strengths, but some of the macth-up you have still don't fly. C-Sagat doesn't counter A-Vega, it works the other way around. Like wise you'll almost never see a C-Honda versus A-Sakura, as few people play Honda competatively.

I appauld your principles, but what I see happening in play doesn't match-up. Outside of A groove I see mostly CBS varients, mostly based on play style and character preference. I guess the longer I play CVS and spend time in the community, the less theory actually stands up.

I hope you stated this from watching big tourney vids or casuals at big tourney vids, and not from what you have played/seen 1st hand. I think of CBS players as people who got sick of their unique team losing when they know they can win and just decided to go with the top tier heavy hitters with the least bad match-ups possible. People with unique and original teams like buk, otk, and iyo are the type of people I like to see win the most since they don't have your team CBS and A-are varients. Then you have your people with their unique character(s): Makoto and Buk Mihai named, CrazyAssKim (C-Rolento), Leezy (K-Kim), Combo (his A-Rock days and now his K-Ken), Rai (K-Mai), Pinokio (K-Chun), Desora (K-Raiden), Bari (K-Gief and C-Chang), Shiro (K-Yama), and others who play Cammy in their team without Blanka and Sagat are also nice to watch. Its more entertaining then watching mirror matches waiting to see who gets the 1st PTF/Sho Sho and all the usual stuff from the top tiers. Its the people with the unique character(s) that make this game interesting because it shows the potential of what you can do if you just put the effort into it.

The theory works as long as you know all that is needed, frame advantage, pokes, bad/good match-ups, execution in combos, RC/Parry/JD, set ups, mix up, sticks to practice on, and time and dedication. At first of course you won't probably win matches then you should win but thats all about experience to get better.

Mihai, I'm surprised you said K-Hibiki when shes ranked high-mid tier in A-groove. Could you give me your opinion on that?

[box]

Now, here's what I believe:

C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat > A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega
A-Bison/Blanka/Sak/Vega > K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat
K-Blanka/Cammy/Hibiki/Sagat > C-Blanka/Chun/Guile/Honda/Sagat


I think A-vega > C Chun, C Guile, and C Honda.
A-sak > C Chun, C Guile, C Blanka, C Sagat

[Mihai]

Mihai, I'm surprised you said K-Hibiki when shes ranked high-mid tier in A-groove. Could you give me your opinion on that?

It basically comes down to two things in my mind. First off, the A-groove characters I listed do everything she does better IMO, and second, in K she is a much more solid character with run/rage/JD/low jump. I'm sorry for being so generic, but that's just how I see it. It's not like anything is set in stone. There are people who rep with A-Hibiki, and there are people who rep with N-Hibiki (buktooth). When it comes down to it, a man can figure out a few different ways to do something, all of them effective. The rest comes down to that man's will, the way he applies his beliefs, his dedication, and his competition/experience. As long as your characters are fundamentally strong (meaning they stay true to what the game revolves around [in CVS2's case, that's the ground game and supers/customs]), there's a good chance you can win a national with them.

[SanGye]

It basically comes down to two things in my mind. First off, the A-groove characters I listed do everything she does better IMO, and second, in K she is a much more solid character with run/rage/JD/low jump. I'm sorry for being so generic, but that's just how I see it. It's not like anything is set in stone. There are people who rep with A-Hibiki, and there are people who rep with N-Hibiki (buktooth). When it comes down to it, a man can figure out a few different ways to do something, all of them effective. The rest comes down to that man's will, the way he applies his beliefs, his dedication, and his competition/experience. As long as your characters are fundamentally strong (meaning they stay true to what the game revolves around [in CVS2's case, that's the ground game and supers/customs]), there's a good chance you can win a national with them.

I figured since I never see any A-groovers play Hibiki except during the early tourney days. I myself like playing K-Hibiki, a character well suited for me.

[Mihai]

I figured since I never see any A-groovers play Hibiki except during the early tourney days. I myself like playing K-Hibiki, a character well suited for me.

And that's a huge thing that a lot of people don't stress enough...certain characters just fit a person's style, and being comfortable with who you're using is just massive...I can't stress it enough. If you don't feel right, you're gonna get rolled, one way or another. That's why I never said using counter characters/teams is the best. I BELIEVE that it's the best system, but it doesn't mean it is. Someone may be able to justify their system better than me, and that's fine, too. Whatever works for you, as long as you have strong fundamentals (that suit the game, of course).

PS. One of the reasons I like K-Hibiki is overhead xx super. That shit is an auto hit confirm. Doesn't come out if the overhead was blocked, only if it connected. :wgrin:

[Maj]

C-Groove doesn't counter A-Groove. C just does better against A than K does. However, A is better than both C and K. The only outright counter is A-Groove beating K-Groove.

It's closer to: A >>> K | A > C | K > C

C isn't good because it counters A. The only advantage to C is that if you don't want to play A, then C is a safer (more consistent) choice than K.

A beats C because A is bullshit. K beats C because K-Sagat beats C-Sagat and because K-Cammy gives all the good C characters trouble.

[noodleman]

^^^ thank you. I was waiting for someone to correct that. I'd remove one of the > signs on A vs K though...it's bad, but not OMG horrible, especially if the a-team doesn't have sak, or todo.

[Mihai]

Maj:

Why exactly do you think A beats C? Just wondering, I know A's overall damage output from customs >>> C's (realistically speaking), but I always felt that C's access to alpha counters, and it's safety (which you mentioned) was the best counter to A.

[vkuwabara]

well, this discussion is very interesting.
I've spent some time thinking about how to counter Vega (still can't figure out), tested many team combinations and the usual adivce I get is 'stick to 1 team only', but I really can't. I guess all my teams are evolving together, my C is better than ever, however my K is getting worse and A still can't fix a team.

In fact I noticed that I got 1 team for each of my opponents here. Maybe I'm countering them without knowing.

[Maj]

Playing C isn't any safer than playing K or A. In fact, playing C just might be the least safe of the three because C actually needs to fight to win. On the other hand, A just needs to build meter then wait for a mistake, while K just needs to get hit in the face until it turns red.

Picking C is safer than picking K because you don't really care what groove your opponent picks. C has the same slight disadvantage in either case. However, if you pick K, you're reeeaaallly hoping that your opponent doesn't pick A, so in that regard it's more risky.

Why does A beat C? Because A charges up faster and because it's more versatile. It all comes down to meter. All of the C-Groove tools are nice, but they pale in comparison to customs. Alpha counter saves you from dying to block damage and guard crush customs but it also refunds half of A-Groove's meter. How dumb is that? Can you imagine if lvl2 hotfoot only cost 1 level if it got hit in any way?

What constitutes a deadly mistake against A is much smaller than what constitutes a mistake against C or K. Sometimes K punishes you really hard for no good reason, simply because it has (lots of) meter to burn, but at least you can wait it out. It's so much harder to bait A into anything punishable because CC activation is the answer to goddamn everything (and every character has ultra safe follow-ups).

I don't think C vs A is a bad fight, and i think smart C players can definately make up for the slight disadvantage. However, A is clearly the king of the hill.

[Nick T.]

You guys are thinking way too much.

[Mihai]

Really nice post, Maj. :sad: but true.

[YMDSLTSAC]

I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is rather than have a seperate counter team, it's better to just settle on one team and switch the order of them when necessary.

Or you can, you know, just pick A-groove.

[randomsuper]

a groove is so severely broken.

[Ouroborus]

no its not

[randomsuper]

yeah, it is. it's so much better than every other groove it's ridiculous.

[Ouroborus]

first of all you dont even know what the word broken is, so stop calling A groove or anything else broken until you know what it really means.

ex: ST akuma is broken, old sagat is not.

reason why ST akuma is broken is because he beats everyone nearly for free, like 9-1 ratio. more than half the cast cant deal with his air fb and his other no recovery/invincibility BS.

old sagat might have an advantage vs almost everyone but it isnt as lopsided as akuma.

as good as A groove is, it dont own every other groove for free. K groove might have the worst matchups vs A groove but vs every other groove, K groove has the advantage. A groove is its achillies heel and even then A vs K isnt as lopsided as ST akuma vs the rest of the cast.

[jreinert13]

I tend to just pick characters I find have strong overall counter-character ability. They are also the characters I tend to have fun the most with because they give my brain all the tools it needs to defend against your opponent (especially when they abuse something they shouldn't get away with).

ex. K- Cammy counters a lot of characters but also has good options against everyone else. Sagat can murder her but if she plays very patient she can counter all of his attacks and piss him off big time.

another example would be K-Ken. Not top tier but has the ability to beat anyone in the game because he has all the basic tools.

I also stay away from characters like Yamazaki who I love using and can destroy a lot of characters; but has some horrendous matchups against top tier characters and is found out pretty easily.

[box]

I use Mai and Vega just to counter the horde of Sakura players that are in my area. Both work good against Honda as well.

[Mihai]

I tend to just pick characters I find have strong overall counter-character ability. They are also the characters I tend to have fun the most with because they give my brain all the tools it needs to defend against your opponent (especially when they abuse something they shouldn't get away with).

ex. K- Cammy counters a lot of characters but also has good options against everyone else. Sagat can murder her but if she plays very patient she can counter all of his attacks and piss him off big time.

another example would be K-Ken. Not top tier but has the ability to beat anyone in the game because he has all the basic tools.

I also stay away from characters like Yamazaki who I love using and can destroy a lot of characters; but has some horrendous matchups against top tier characters and is found out pretty easily.

I <3 your post. It's pretty much exactly what I believe, and the Yama example was just spot on. I also used to use him religiously, until I realized he just can't hang with certain characters.

[randomsuper]

first of all dick, don't tell me what i can or can't say on these forums. if i think something is broken and you don't, that's fine. state your opinion, but don't be an ass about it. now that the word broken has a technical definition according to you, i guess you're right. a groove isn't broken. but i definately think everyone can say it is far too dominating a groove.

[Ouroborus]

first of all dick, don't tell me what i can or can't say on these forums. if i think something is broken and you don't, that's fine. state your opinion, but don't be an ass about it. now that the word broken has a technical definition according to you, i guess you're right. a groove isn't broken. but i definately think everyone can say it is far too dominating a groove.

you can feel free to say whatever, but that doesnt stop from you from sounding like a dumbass. and i already stated my opinion without being an ass about it, its just that you choose to take it personally. not my fault.

[randomsuper]

you can say something in a cool way or you can be a dick. you spoke like a dick, i responded. when someone makes a statement attempting to belittle someone, don't wonder why they "take it personal." so yeah, go take your bitchy attitude and definitions to someone who cares.

[Nick T.]

who gives a fuck?

[Ouroborus]

you can say something in a cool way or you can be a dick. you spoke like a dick, i responded. when someone makes a statement attempting to belittle someone, don't wonder why they "take it personal." so yeah, go take your bitchy attitude and definitions to someone who cares.

you made a scrubby ass remark, i corrected you and now you're crying.

you lost scrub.

[CMX]

can't we all just get along?

[randomsuper]

Calm down. --TB

[YMDSLTSAC]

Although A-groove is hands down the best groove in the game. The more and more I play CvS2 the more and more I realize that A-groove' dominance is more of a character issue than anything else. There are three characters that make A-groove a pain to fight against. Those characters are:

Blanka, Bison and Vega.

Whenever I hear someone complaining about A-groove I assume they have seen or fought against someone who is good with at least one of those characters.

[CMX]

Although A-groove is hands down the best groove in the game. The more and more I play CvS2 the more and more I realize that A-groove' dominance is more of a character issue than anything else. There are three characters that make A-groove a pain to fight against. Those characters are:

Blanka, Bison and Vega.

Whenever I hear someone complaining about A-groove I assume they have seen or fought against someone who is good with at least one of those characters.

You mean 4 you left out Sakura, people play either her or Vega depending on which people prefer.

[randomsuper]

i think i've contributed enough crap to this thread already. the conversation was never about groove dominance, but picking up counter characters. although there is definately an argument for countering with both a character and groove.

[vkuwabara]

absolutely, my problems are Vega (in any groove) and A-Bison

[randomsuper]

i don't think anyone outright counters bison, although guile does ok against him. damage is so heavily in his favor that it's tough to ever count him out of a match if he has that bar flashing.

[tetsuye00]

So this question has already been asked, but I'm looking for a fuller answer:

Who counters Vega, AND who has decent match-ups against Vega?


Right now I'm using N-Hibiki. I really like her, but I'm not outputting enough damage with her in most average matches. Vega is one of my toughest matches, and I'm looking to find another character to train up who is stronger than Hibiki and has at least as good a match up with Vega as Hibiki.

So far the only characters I've heard are Cammy and Nak. I can put Cammy up front and that is fine, but I'm not sure I want to run Nak all the time.

Any help would be nice.

[randomsuper]

a smart vega is really difficult to counter. i don't know if anyone actually counters him out right. i think some characters do very well against him, but he's a tough one. the best way to beat vega is to out play the person using him. pressure him when you get a knockdown and watch out for rc ball or flip kick. or go random with the psychic dp's when he's poking away. at least that's my experience.

and challenging vega air to air is a bad idea. he's too nasty.

[noodleman]

vega counters vega :P

other that do well vs vega: eagle and blanka. i'm pretty sure all of eagle's pokes out prioritize vega's, mainly vega's cr.mp, cr.mk, and slide. air to air is in eagle's favor as well.

[tetsuye00]

Yeah, right now I do just fine with Hibiki. I'm just looking to increase my overall damage, not just against Vega. I just don't want to learn another character only to find out that one of my hardest matches is impossible. Maybe Hibiki will just become my 4th character, the way that Buktooth has Chun-Li as an alternate.

[tetsuye00]

vega counters vega :P

other that do well vs vega: eagle and blanka. i'm pretty sure all of eagle's pokes out prioritize vega's, mainly vega's cr.mp, cr.mk, and slide. air to air is in eagle's favor as well.

I'll keep tha in mind, I played Eagle for a while, he might be a good opener, but yeah Blanka and Cammy are probably better.


List so far: Cammy, Nak, Vega, Blanka, Eagle

[gridman]

popobolo had a lot a good eagle info vs vega. hell, he had a lot of solid eagle info vs almost every character. he made me want to play him but he wasnt really my character. id rather just play guile.

[Mihai]

Like noodleman said, play Vega vs Vega. That is the best counter. Vega himself is not that strong of a character. It's the fact that he's fucking annoying as hell that makes him such a psychologically dominant character. If you use Vega, 9/10 times, the match seems like a cake walk. Doesn't mean you'll win, but it does mean you won't get an ulcer fighting him.

[tetsuye00]

popobolo had a lot a good eagle info vs vega. hell, he had a lot of solid eagle info vs almost every character. he made me want to play him but he wasnt really my character. id rather just play guile.

How does Guile fair against Vega? I really like Guile, but I've had a hard time doing enough damage against people with him.

Also, how does Honda do against Vega? I'm just curious.

[randomsuper]

honda gets raped if vega decides to jump away.

[tetsuye00]

honda gets raped if vega decides to jump away.

So it's a turtling game? Awesome..........

[Mihai]

I think both Guile and Honda do terrible against Vega. I think the following do well against Vega (in no particular order):

Vega (more to it than the fact that it's the same character)
Blanka
Cammy
Bison
Sagat
Hibiki
Iori

[randomsuper]

why haoh and iori?

[tetsuye00]

why haoh and iori?

Yeah, if I can use Iori that might work out. He is one of the first characters I ever used, and he makes a great battery.

[randomsuper]

i just wonder why mihai feels iori does well against vega. iori has to get in and vega is the god of keeping you out so i thought it would be lop sided in vega's favor.

[tetsuye00]

Understand. I think Iori might play the come to me game. I don't know if he can punish after a ball, but a lot of people love to use the ball, and if Iori can throw in a rekka chain afterward it will probably land good damage.

I just guessing though. Maybe it's a rolling through/evasion game?

[noodleman]

honda vs vega is even in my books. Honda's a tank, his chip off his headbutt matches pretty well vs vega's cr.mp. And if he manages to get a headbutt or two in, vega can't run away anymore. If both players knows what they're doing with their respective characters (honda/vega), and both people know how to RC, the match is even.

no honda player would do random headbutts from a full screen away.

[Nick T.]

i just wonder why mihai feels iori does well against vega. iori has to get in and vega is the god of keeping you out so i thought it would be lop sided in vega's favor.

All Iori needs is that one opp. to get in and its basically game over for Vega.

2 decent combo's = stunned Vega, combo xx super for the kill basically.

[gridman]

Understand. I think Iori might play the come to me game. I don't know if he can punish after a ball, but a lot of people love to use the ball, and if Iori can throw in a rekka chain afterward it will probably land good damage.

I just guessing though. Maybe it's a rolling through/evasion game?

Just for the record, no one can punish vegas ball. It leaves you at 0.

Iori does really well against vega if he lands one combo, like already mentioned.

Honda vs Vega I think is 6-4 in vegas favor just because its Vega.

[Mihai]

All Iori needs is that one opp. to get in and its basically game over for Iori.

2 decent combo's = stunned Vega, combo xx super for the kill basically.

Just woke up =\ I put Iori for this reason, and because although it may be considered "scrubby", random roll to get in when he tries to zone you can lead to Vega's death.

About Honda vs Vega, I think Vega beats him just cause he can bait out Honda's main tools (RC Headbutt/Slaps) and punish them fairly easily (jump straight up fierce/rh) from around Vega's max c. strong range. If Honda just turtles in the corner, Vega can just keep jiggling and poking with c. strong while mixing in jump up fierces/rh.

Hoah vs Honda. Haoh can outpoke Vega with far strong, jump up fierce, far fierce. From fullscreen, Haoh can throw a jab Tornado, and Honda has to roll, jump up as it passes under him, or jump forward, RC Headbutt through it, or RC Slap through it, or whatever. Point is, the Tornado is so slow, that Haoh can follow up pretty well based on whatever Honda does. If Honda does nothing, he can jumpin on Honda for free even from fullscreen IIRC with j. fierce after Honda blocks it. If Honda reacted to it with an early fierce RC Headbutt in hopes of hitting Haoh, I think Honda's invincibility runs out as he approaches it, and he will lose/trade, but either way, the Tornado knocks Honda down and you can then do super meaty crossup forward setups with Hao, which loop, and which can lead to serious damage. Anytime you have a lead on Honda, ABUSE it. That is Honda's greatest weakness IMO. Having to come to someone and feebly attack. Oh yeah, Haoh's massive sj arc is also awesome for like random jump back fierces to counter any close range RC headbutts. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, he can get in quickly from the opposite end of the screen using his huge sj. fierce. Oh, and watchout doing Tornados fullscreen vs Honda when he has a LVL3 cause he can super through it for free and hit you.

Sorry if this sounds like theory, it's pretty practical in my eyes. I think simple shit beats Honda, but if you let him get a lead, and get frustrated, it can be hard to break his corner shell. Other than that, he doesn't do much damage if you play very safe vs him.

[tetsuye00]

Just woke up =\ I put Iori for this reason, and because although it may be considered "scrubby", random roll to get in when he tries to zone you can lead to Vega's death.

hehe, I can random roll. Go team scrubby.:rofl:

[noodleman]

random bs

if Honda gets in the right zone, or the player isn't an idiot, it's pretty hard to bait out random headbutts. Honda can get close enough where you can react to the headbutt in time to punish.

and Honda blocks a cr.mp or two from vega, and vega runs away. woo, that did no damage. Vega doesn't own Honda, period.

The other stuff, are you talking Hao vs Vega or Hao vs Honda? First you say Hao counter Vega, then go off talking about Hao vs Honda. That jab fb is not abusable....Honda has three very good options. 1) psychic the fb and move forward with headbutt, jump, roll, 2) BLOCK, 3) jump straight up and f+fp to dodge the fireball, or just air block. If Hao is planning to do that all match, you can bet honda's going to get in and make you eat big damage.

[Mihai]

Yeah I realized I was talking counters to Vega than I went off on Honda lol. Anyway, I never said spam Haoh's jab Tornado, cause it's obviously not hard to get around. It's main purpose is to see what Honda does, cause let's face it, Honda players tend to sit in their corners and do nothing but jab Headbutt a jumpin, do RC Hands midscreen, or do RC Headbutt upclose. Then you got roll xx LVL2, cancel to fierce Headbutt, roll, LVL3, dash, LVL3, and meaty jab, RC Grab/trip. Oh, and if he wants to move in, he dashes/rolls. That pretty much sums up Honda. I only mentioned the Tornado strat cause it's a very good way to tell what kind of Honda you're facing. If he doesn't advance using roll, jump over, RC Headbutt through it (to make you block it), buttstomp over it, it shows that he's waiting for an opportunity to counter, and it's pretty much guaranteed he's going to start looking for opportunities to punish the jab Tornado. So you counter his intentions and try to bait something out and punish (that's what the fake Tornado is for). If he jumps straight up, or just jumps back (he's in the corner), he's basically a turtle (doesn't want to take the chip damage because he's smart and he knows Honda can't catch Vega), and he's going to pretty much build a brick house in the corner. So you know how to approach him. Obviously not set in stone, but more than likely, if the Honda is not moving from his corner, you will have to bust out some random shit to bait him out, THEN run from HIM to make his fat ass follow you, and break himself on YOUR defense.

As for Vega vs Honda, while Vega's c. strong doesn't do any damage, Honda cannot block forever. Sooner rather than later...he will get thrown by a dash throw, empty jump throw, random j. fierce/rh when Honda loses his charge, etc. It's not scientific, but turtling hardcore like in say the Honda/Vega ST matchup will not work as well in CVS2. Statistically speaking, unless you're Mago (god like turtling powers and great intuition), your Honda won't survive a war of attrition against a good Vega, cause Vega, while predictably linear, WILL land some random shit. And good luck trying to catch up on damage vs Vega. The more desperate you get, the more Vega will hit you with stuff like jump up/back fierce/rh, then go for a throw, corpse hop, c. short, s. rh xx backflip etc. Shit like that. Honda CANNOT play catchup, and he cannot force damage. Whenever you play Honda, you're assuming that the opponent will break himself on your defense. Players have stopped losing to Honda like that, and only do so when they get really frustrated cause Honda already had a lead (putting him 2nd for example).

randomsuper: Sry man, I was thinking of Vega when I said Haoh, but then I went on about Haoh vs Honda, lol, and I dunno why I added Tornado thing, I was messing around in training mode after I woke up. And I guess that sums it up...don't post after you wake up. =\

EDIT: Lol wow...I just realized I was thinking of Joe when I put Haoh vs Vega, but it's actually Haoh that does well against him, not Joe (altho Joe does pretty good). Man, I need more sleep, been sleeping just 4 hours past two nights...

[YMDSLTSAC]

I think Iori countering Vega is more of a theoretical argument than anything. At least for A-Vega. (N)Iori has to commit to alot just to do damage and Vega has braindead counters for all of it.

Jump straight up counters RC rekka
RC crystal flash if he manages to get in
If Iori Preemptively rolls or jumps in anticipation of RC crystal flash Vega can throw/airthrow/anti-air
and if Vega has meter things just get retarded

Of course Iori can still win. In fact the matchup isn't too bad for Iori cause like someone said if he gets in and lands a combo Vega' gonna feel it, but I think the matchup is 6-4 in Vega' favor.

Lastly of all the Buktooth vs Ricky matches I have seen I have seen maybe one where Buktooth' Iori beat Ricky' Vega. And those are two players who have maxed out their respective characters.

As far as who counters Vega I think N-Sagat does pretty damn good against him.

[tetsuye00]

I think Iori countering Vega is more of a theoretical argument than anything. At least for A-Vega. (N)Iori has to commit to alot just to do damage and Vega has braindead counters for all of it.

Jump straight up counters RC rekka
RC crystal flash if he manages to get in
If Iori Preemptively rolls or jumps in anticipation of RC crystal flash Vega can throw/airthrow/anti-air
and if Vega has meter things just get retarded

Of course Iori can still win. In fact the matchup isn't too bad for Iori cause like someone said if he gets in and lands a combo Vega' gonna feel it, but I think the matchup is 6-4 in Vega' favor.

Lastly of all the Buktooth vs Ricky matches I have seen I have seen maybe one where Buktooth' Iori beat Ricky' Vega. And those are two players who have maxed out their respective characters.

As far as who counters Vega I think N-Sagat does pretty damn good against him.


Thanks for the continued feedback guys.

At this point I'm just developing a bunch of characters. I'm going to either use Rolento, Cammy, or Iori as my battery. And use either Geese, Chun, Cammy, or Ken as a user.

I'm just trying to figure out who I like and who is worth me slaving to learn. Some of the really great characters are awful in my hands right now and I'm trying to figure out whether it is worth it to train them (Cammy, Ken, kinda Chun).

[Mihai]

It's not that Vega can't stop Iori's shit. It's the fact that once Iori lands some shit of his own, it's more than likely GGPO. Vega's damage has always been slow and steady, while Iori's is fast and heavy.

[noodleman]

more bs.

You obviously haven't played a good Honda player and you're just making random comments that make no sense. FYI, not every Honda turtles in the corner.

and on Honda vs Vega, Honda CAN block forever, how many cr.mp do you think you need to do in a roll without jumping in or eating psychic headbutt in order for you to get a guard crush? Trying to guard crush Honda is dumb. I didn't even mention the good alpha counter that honda has.

[Mihai]

You obviously haven't played a good Honda player and you're just making random comments that make no sense. FYI, not every Honda turtles in the corner.

and on Honda vs Vega, Honda CAN block forever, how many cr.mp do you think you need to do in a roll without jumping in or eating psychic headbutt in order for you to get a guard crush? Trying to guard crush Honda is dumb. I didn't even mention the good alpha counter that honda has.

Oh, yeah. Cause Honda's gonna rush you down in C. Shit, my bad. Yeah, I guess your posts deserve special mention. I mean, fuck, why didn't I think of applying such awesome strategies as "psychic headbutt". That will def win you EVO. Keep reppin rushdown Honda playa.

Oh yeah, way to take what I posted and translate it into "Vega guard crushes Honda with c. strong". Reading comprehension FTL? Def. And watchout, that alpha counter of Honda's will def do a LOT vs Vega, you know, since Vega is a single hit character and all. The alpha counter will really help alleviate the massive rushdown A-Vega offers. Fuck, you're a genius.

Here's to noodleman failing to understand English for the second time in a row. I await the third "more bs" aka "I can't read cause I'm one massively retarded motherfucking idiot".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fntSOyqZiMM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok, noodleman, I know your English reading comprehension is quite low, so try to follow. I'll use the terms that best describe you in order to grab your attention, since I know your attention span is almost as bad as your reading. MOTHERFUCKER, SCROLL YOUR MOUSE OVER THE LINK, AND PRESS YOUR LEFT MOUSE BUTTON ONCE. THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO A WEBSITE WITH A VIDEO. WATCH THE VIDEO, AND TRY TO COMPREHEND THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THE THINGS I SAID ARE BEING USED IN THE FIRST ROUND. OK?

OK, NOW I KNOW YOU'RE ALSO SLOW. SO I'LL POINT OUT THE MAIN THINGS I SAID ABOUT THIS MATCHUP, THAT ARE QUITE OBVIOUS IN THIS VIDEO.

A) VEGA WILL GET RANDOM HITS IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.
B) THIS LEADS TO HONDA BEHIND ON LIFE.
C) THIS LEADS TO HONDA TRYING TO CHASE DOWN VEGA.
D) THIS RESULTS IN HONDA'S RAPE AND EVENTUAL DEATH.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKER.

[noodleman]

lol, and Smooth is suppose to be the ultimate A-honda player. notice i keep saying a GOOD honda player. Smooth wasn't that good with Honda, but he was doing the right stuff at the beginning...trading hits. Guess which way trading favors? You didn't even LISTEN to the video you listed, where they're saying smooth is trying to talk shit by playing Honda.

thanks for poor attempt. It was a nice try.

Notice i'm not even saying Honda owns vega, i'm saying the matchup is even, which other people have suggested similar as well (someone mentioned 6-4 to vega, which i agree).

and here's a link to the REAL match up we're talking about (A-Vega vs C-Honda), and it's BAS vs Mago....notice how Honda doesn't get owned? And how what i've said is being applied (psychic headbutts, honda trading damage, etc.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlK5N3RHXc

next time you should try and think abit before flaming people who know more about the subject than you do.

[Mihai]

First off, you don't know shit. Note how I ALREADY said Mago is a fucking beast with Honda. He is EASILY the best Honda player in the world. And he still loses. And just because "psychic headbutt" worked twice doesn't mean it's a good tactic. And you never once mentioned trading hits with Honda. That doesn't even apply to this matchup wtf are you talking about? Finally, watch the first 30 seconds or so of the vid when Honda got that roll, RC Slaps off, then a bit later goes for another roll, RC slaps. Everytime Honda goes for anything like that, jump up fierce/rh rapes him. He can't do shit against neutral jump. Bas decided to stay on the ground, which was pretty dumb IMO since everyone knows what Mago is going to go for. He's a brute force player. And brute force, just like in real life, tends to get owned if u let it work against the person. Simple translation: let Honda kill himself. No need to work.

[noodleman]

here's a match up chart some jap players made for the top tiers.

http://r4-raiden.shikigami.jp/diagram/index.htm

other people suggesting the SAME conclusion that A-Vega vs C-Honda is 6-4.

do you even pay attention to how much damage the two psychic headbutts did? You don't win the match solely on one tactic. Notice how Honda CAN rush if he wanted to?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that you can't do match up analysis unless both players are equal in skill with their characters? Of course a good vega is going to rape a bad honda. the same can be said a bout a good honda raping vega.

[Master Chibi]

Eagle counters Vega?

Really?

I didn't know that.

I'll have to pick him up then, I just use Nak for now.

[Mihai]

Ok, fine. Enough arguing. The end.

Master Chibi:

I don't think Eagle counters Vega at all. It's mainly theory in my eyes. He doesn't do badly against him, but he's def not a counter. I don't think anyone counters A-Vega. He's too solid. Just like nobody counters A-Blanka. That's why A-Vega/whatever/Blanka2 is a retarded team.

[randomsuper]

imo, a real counter is something like 7/3.

[noodleman]

Ok, fine. Enough arguing. The end.


it's nice to be able to backpedal when you realize you're wrong eh?

[Mihai]

it's nice to be able to backpedal when you realize you're wrong eh?

Are you serious? I don't backpedal u fucking tard. Check out my Dudley thread. Does that look like backpedaling although most of the thread disagreed with me? 3K views and 170 responses. I just don't wanna argue cause it's too easy owning you up. Your posts are fucktarded and you just make up shit like "trying to guardcrush Honda is dumb" and "i told you about trading". You end your post by saying Vega/Honda matchup is 6-4, and that's due to Mago. That list is heavily influenced by Japan's top players. That list is biased, PERIOD. C-Honda wouldn't even be on that fucking list if Mago didn't exist. Just like A-Kyo/Iori/Hibki, and C-Shotos wouldn't be on it either if it wasn't for certain players (like Dan) reppin those characters (Shotos in Dan's case) hardcore. Not to mention the maker of that list put K-Raiden as a top-tier K character, just cause he uses R4 K-Raiden. Now on the other hand, A-Vega is widely considered top tier in Canada/US/Europe/Japan/China/Cambodia/Antarctica etc. So giving A-Vega just 6-4 favors vs C-Honda is a fucking GIFT to Honda. He doesn't deserve it. 7-3 EASILY (which is the base line counter character requirement). Mago made and currently IS C-Honda. And he still loses to A-Vega... But thx for agreeing with me that Vega counters Honda.

[CMX]

http://r4-raiden.shikigami.jp/diagram/index.htm

Does someone know what it says about C-Kim down on the bottom of the page?

[Mihai]

Does someone know what it says about C-Kim down on the bottom of the page?

THE FOLLOWING IS A ROUGH TRANSLATION:

I think they say because his mobility is very good, his potential is great. They are basically trying to say he has a latent abilities, meaning untapped power.

For Cammy, they say P and K are strong grooves for her and she excels at pushing the opponent into the corner if you work at it diligently. They also say that although her stamina may be weak, her defense is strong, so it's not a problem as many may perceive it. The stamina could also be replaced by P/K groove, and they may mean that although these grooves are considered weak compared to A, Cammy excels using them and is able to push well with these grooves? Finally, the other possible interpretation is that while she excels pushing characters into the corner, she herself is weak in that position (the corner, that is).

For Ken, I think they say Ken is a beginner character, and anybody can find a good level of success using him.

For Rolento, I think they say he does well against C-anybody, but against A-groove, his top tier status is concealed, meaning he doesn't shine as bright vs the #1 groove in the game.

[YMDSLTSAC]

THE FOLLOWING IS A ROUGH TRANSLATION:

I think they say because his mobility is very good, his potential is great. They are basically trying to say he has a latent abilities, meaning untapped power.

...



What do you think they mean by "his mobility is very good"?

[Nick T.]

Eagle counters Vega?

Really?

I didn't know that.

I'll have to pick him up then, I just use Nak for now.

Eagle doesn't really counter Vega. From what I remember from one of Apoc's posts from like 2 years ago, he said that with 2 Eagle BnB's Vega loses his claw and mask I think. Then you keep him in the corner and such.

[CMX]

THE FOLLOWING IS A ROUGH TRANSLATION:

I think they say because his mobility is very good, his potential is great. They are basically trying to say he has a latent abilities, meaning untapped power.

For Cammy, they say P and K are strong grooves for her and she excels at pushing the opponent into the corner if you work at it diligently. They also say that although her stamina may be weak, her defense is strong, so it's not a problem as many may perceive it. The stamina could also be replaced by P/K groove, and they may mean that although these grooves are considered weak compared to A, Cammy excels using them and is able to push well with these grooves? Finally, the other possible interpretation is that while she excels pushing characters into the corner, she herself is weak in that position (the corner, that is).

For Ken, I think they say Ken is a beginner character, and anybody can find a good level of success using him.

For Rolento, I think they say he does well against C-anybody, but against A-groove, his top tier status is concealed, meaning he doesn't shine as bright vs the #1 groove in the game.

Even though you say its a rough translation, its better then me not knowing what it could possibly mean at all, thanks.

[kimjongiLL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVlK5N3RHXc
That's a good video. I saved it to my youtube favorites.

Mago knows his matchups very well.

Bison's one hit scissors kick is weak to Sagat's fast roll, so Mago distances himself and rolls at all the right times, attacking with two-frame s.LP right out of it. It looks like Mago is reckless, but he's purposely random just enough with his supers to maintain the air of unpredictability and forces his opponent to respect him. He has patience to not freak out when Bison tries a jumping cross-up at a difficult angle, and does a cross-up DP to counter.

Bison with meter jumping at C-groove seems a little broken and unfairly in A-groove's favor though. If Sagat tries a ground based anti-air, he's dead. If Sagat tries airblock, he gets guard broken into tripguard. If he sticks out an attack (as shown in the video), the attack gets blown through and he loses tripguard. If he jumps back without airblocking, Bison can use jumping strongs.

The only thing I can think of is just blocking the jump-in when Bison has meter. Maybe sticking out a stand jab to counter empty jump, but still recover in time to block the attacks after jump-in activate. A-Bison and this jump-in guessing game in particular is one of the things that always frustrated me the most about CvS2. What are people doing with C-Sagat in this situation nowadays?

Other cool stuff:
-Sagat attempting wake-up roll behind, cross-up DP as counter to Blanka trying to RC elec him on wake-up.
-Sagat far s.MK to beat a Blanka d.HP.
-Wake-up RC Tiger Crush to get out of the corner at 2:25. (A huge WTF, but that's just crazy enough to be good...)
-Blanka kicking the vulnerabilty of another Blanka's whiff LP ball with d.MK xx super.

[Ouroborus]

The only thing I can think of is just blocking the jump-in when Bison has meter. Maybe sticking out a stand jab to counter empty jump, but still recover in time to block the attacks after jump-in activate. A-Bison and this jump-in guessing game in particular is one of the things that always frustrated me the most about CvS2. What are people doing with C-Sagat in this situation nowadays?



man the fuck up, thats what you have to do with sagat.

[Nick T.]

man the fuck up, thats what you have to do with sagat.

Or you could just jump up, meet him at the same height, rh, fall and recover at the same time should he activate.

or fuck it, just roll

[Mihai]

Or you could just jump up, meet him at the same height, rh, fall and recover at the same time should he activate.

QFT. Straight jump up is one of the most powerful and underused tactics in ANY SF game.

[Nick T.]

QFT. Straight jump up is one of the most powerful and underused tactics in ANY SF game.
actually jump up and jump back can get you killed, it has to be a jump forward.

Should've made that specific, sorry. :(

[Mihai]

actually jump up and jump back can get you killed, it has to be a jump forward.

Should've made that specific, sorry. :(

I didn't even pay attention to the whole anti A-Bison shit. I'm just saying straight jump up = ownage.

[Viscant]

viscant, did u invented the 50/50 super with yamazaki after a knockdown

There's not much to invent. For the record, Ed Ma is the real creator of like 75% of the Yamazaki stuff that I do. So people who are biting off my super ghetto tactics are really just biting Ed by proxy. He was hardheaded enough to play him in CvS1 (where he was actually more broken).
In CvS1, the throw super had almost no recovery so in a lot of situations it was a damned if you do/damned if you don't type thing. If you jump away from the throw super, he'd recover in time to anti-air super you. Splendid.

Really all I did was just try and get down the exact distance it'll hit you from so I can set up ticks and add some new variants. (In C groove, RC dust on their wakeup, dash forward level 2. Meaty low forward, crossup roll, level 2. In N groove, meaty low short, instant overhead rh xx random super. Blah blah, there are a million of em) Also, it seems more useful because most people will try to wake up RC just to prove they can giving me a nice window to get the grab super on wakeups.

--Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

[Maj]

In N groove, meaty low short, instant overhead rh xx random super.
By far the most ghettofied usage of "xx" i have ever seen.

[ZenFire]

lol, I totally missed that.. nice