Everybody needs to talk about Zangief now

[Maj]

Ok, so Gief was the first character to get mentioned three times in that Most Entertaining Character (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=127929) thread. Accordingly, he's going to have the honor of being the first character we talk about.

There was a thread a while ago that brought up the idea of discussing one character for a set period of time. Let's try one character per week and if it turns out that we need more time, we'll make that call at the end of the week. The goal is going to be to gather tips and tricks and such, so that we can finally develop the SRK CvS2 Wiki into something presentable.

We'll start with a "fun" character, then do a "serious" character, and alternate like that. So get to talkin', kids.

Here's what's currently up there:
http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Zangief_%28CvS2%29

It's quite sad. We can do better.

[UCRJesse]

Maj, i've actually been using gief a lot in casuals lately, ask Viscant, haha.

Anyways, Gief is a good character, I'll try out some stuff this week and make a big post. Good idea.

[ZenFire]

I like grapplers a lot. Gief is the original grappler, I think that's also why he's probably a little behind the rest. I think he has the worst mobility of any grappler in the game, even though in return he gets the most damaging cmd throws (is that even true?).

Effective range
Well I don't know much about gief in cvs2 specifically, but I can tell by comparing him to... say... honda, he doesn't have anything even close to the ranged game honda has. Honda doesn't need to close the distance to be effective/annoying/good. IMO Gief does, he just doesn't have the threat from far away meaning everyone knows you're going to try to get closer. Other characters that shine up close due to mixups and such usually have ways to get there like normal/fast walking speeds, normal jump arcs, half-decent rolls, safe rollcancels, ways to cover safe falls after common knockdowns.

Positioning
Character sizes, and stage sizes factor as well, so he can't really drive you into a corner like say Hugo in 3S. Once you do land a cmd throw the positioning resets and you have to do it all again. Same for lariats. His glowhand and sweep are exceptions obviously.

etc.
It seems to make more sense (to me) on paper to be defensive with Gief, since he has a good AA, and getting close to him on the ground means dealing with a possible knockdown or something else. In K you get JD > 360 which is infinitely excellent. K seems to work out the best because of the likelihood you'll get hit a bunch of times. You're raged and you are scary.

Anyway, I just listed a bunch of things I hate about Gief, sorry. It's just that there is so much less reward for dealing with runaway and monster pokes than there is with other grapplers. Maybe that makes it more rewarding to win.

[GunterJPN]

I am the best A-Zangief player in the world.:lovin:

[randomsuper]

i'm curious as to what exactly you're looking for. basics like anti airs, effective pokes, combos, good/bad match ups, best groove (imo k)?

[misterbean97]

i probably have the best k zangief in the US. everyone needs to use more low jump neutral short, running 360+P/K, and random air supers against blanka, LOL.


on a serious note, k zangief gets seriously murdered against vega

[tetsuye00]

edit: nothing useful to add

[ZenFire]

I think maj just wants to start some discussion so that any information about this character gets brought to light so everyone can benefit. I think it's a great idea, as long as people don't misinterpret others' opinions as personal insults.

EDIT:

So here's some things I'll throw out there maybe get something going. So yeah, there are no move overlaps with circular motions so RC'ing gief's run grab (360+K from far) is just as easy as any other hcf or qcf RC. This gives him something to threaten with other than c.hp and c.hk from outside grab range. You can do it from standing starting from forward, then moving through down then back and up, inputting roll somewhere at back or up-back. Or you can buffer part of the motion during something else starting at up circling to forward which means you can RC it in the same way you RC qcf and hcf moves, so you should be able to do it without much practice.

db+mk xx I-can't-throw-fireballs-but-my-hand-can-glow-in-the-dark combos using any strength punch. Doing it from up close and using the HP version you'll end up still within lp SPD range. Counters people trying to jump away with more pain than just a sweep.

Lariats have pretty crappy invincibility. PPP can go through projectiles for the most part and has upper body invulnerability during startup, and KKK has the same thing for the lower body. Some testing in training mode will show you that you will still trade a bunch of times because the first hiting frame is not invincible. Fortunately neither of these is very hard to RC. If you're going to rely on RC'ing lariats for AA purposes then the Kick version is shorter so you can run up after the knockdown quicker and close the distance that way. If you don'thave roll or dont' want to RC then PPP is obviously the better one. It's safest to AA from a crouching position since that way you'll guarantee that you'll stand up into their hitboxes and guarantee at least a trade. Also if you RC it, start from crouching so if you mess up you'll roll away out of danger.

Neutral jump up+hp does a shitton of stun. 40 points. It's of limited use imo since you'd need to follow up or preceed it with a bunch of other stun to dizzy and it's not like gief is very good at that. All his throws make stun either time out or disappear.

RC'ing Vanishing Flat (glowhand) can be useful to get close, since gief ends up standing where his hand was when it hit (hp version moves him slightly past it even). If you RC it just outside it's hitting range you can SPD or Suplex. This isn't really airtight since the vanishing flat isnt' exactly fast on recovery or startup.

Generic cmd throw setups: Roll, JD, early whiffed jump attack or even empty jump, shallow quick recovering move (d+j.lk).

[randomsuper]

i'm seriously sitting here trying to think of a good match up for zangief and can't. this is gonna be tougher than i thought.

quick question. can gief punish normally safe scissor kicks from bison with a lp 360? that would be pretty good if he could and definately worth mentioning.

he's got great anti airs with or without meter (lariat, down mp, standing lp, anti air super), he can punish blocked blanka balls with crouching fp or his anti air super, he has a cross up with his fp splash.... and that's all i can come up with right now. maybe that will get the ball rolling.

[Mihai]

This is a great idea. It feels like this forum is coming alive. I'll post some stuff in an hour or so. Just woke up...

Ok, here's the only pretty good thing I got so far. It seems lame, but has a tendency to work cause the SPD is instant grab out of the roll, and the roll does crossup, which makes a lot of shit like low shorts/jabs/forwards/whatever hit in the wrong direction, and it also makes throws whiff (in the wrong direction, of course). Holding back and pressing fierce/rh early for the throw works, but the setup is in Gief's favor IMO.

-crossup splash, c. jab, c. jab, (crossup) roll, SPD

If they get used to the idea of you going for this crossup roll, SPD, you can easily adapt and go for a plain ol' SPD tick after the c. jabs.

Also, deep crossup splash, running grab is good...grabs people a lot more than it should.

[FSgamer]

Zangief

Normals

close s.LP
3/4/13 x,x/o,x/o,o
500,400 +-0/+-0

far s.LP
3/4/13 x/o/o
500 +-0/+-0

s.MP
7/2/13 x/x/o
1100 +5/+5

s.HP
11/6/23 x/x/x
1600 -3/-3

s.LK
3?/6?/14 x/o/o
400 -5/-5
(my apologies, this is one of the few sections of the scans that's not very clear, somebody else please confirm the frame data for this move)

s.MK
7/10/15 x/x/o
1100 -5/-5

s.HK
6/9/28 x,x/x,x/o,x
1500,1300 -13/-13

c.LP
3/4/8 o/o/o
300 +5/+5

c.MP
8/12/11 x/x/x
1000 -1/-1

c.HP
11/12/15 x/x/x
1400 -2/-2

c.LK
4?/5?/15 x/o/o
400 -5/-5
(another section of the scans that's not clear)

c.MK
8/12/14 x/x/x
1000 -4/-4

c.HK
9/10/24 x/x/x
1300 DN/-8

j.LP
4/22 700

j.MP
6/4 1100

j.HP (u)
10/8 1600

j.HP (ub/uf)
10/6 1400

j.LK
6/22 600

j.MK (u)
8/12 1000

j.MK (ub/uf)
8/10 1000

j.HK
8/6 1400

Throws

f+HP
3/1/13 2100
52 pixels

b+HP
3/1/13 2100
52 pixels

f/b+HK
5/1/13 1000+200x(2~17)
52 pixels

Command Normals

db+MK
5/4/17 x/o/o
1100 -1/-1

db+HK
7/4/19 x/x/o
1500 DN/+1

In air, u+MP
4/12 1200

In air, u+HP
4/6 1500

In air, d+HP
5/22 1300

In air, d+LK
7/22 600

In air, d+MK
7/22 1000

Specials

PPP

[4/2][4/9][3/7][4/8][5/10][5/7]/11
1300,1500~1000 DN/?
Inv - 4:full?
Inv - 67:upper body?
(I don't know any Japanese, I'm just making educated guesses about invincibility, I'll need somebody else to confirm this for me)

KKK

[4/2][4/8][3/7][4/6]/14
1200,1300~1100 DN/-24
Inv - 4:full?
Inv - 34:upper?

dp+P

LP
14/8/19
1400 -3/-3
Note - 15~23 (maybe this are the frames where the move nullifies fireballs? Somebody please confirm this)

MP
15/10/18
1500 -4/-4
Note - 16~26

HP
18/12/19
1600 -7/-7
Note - 17~29

360+P

LP
1/48
2000 107 pixels

MP
1/46
2300 96 pixels

HP
1/44
2700 86 pixels

360+K (far)

LK
15/25/50
1900 86 pixels

MK
15/26/52
2000 86 pixels

HK
15/33/54
2100 86 pixels

360+K (close)

LK
1/1?
2200 98

MK
1/1?
2500 98

HK
1/1?
2900 98

(there are some notes regarding this move, but again, I don't know any Japanese)

Supers

720+P

Lvl 1
4:1/48
3500 116 pixels
Inv - 8:full

Lvl 2
4:1/48
5000 116 pixels
Inv - 14:full

Lvl 3
4:1/48
7000 116 pixels
Inv - 22:full

(apparently there's no start-up frames after the super flash, 1 active frame and 48 frames of recovery, which means if the opponent wasn't holding up before the super flash the super will grab him)

qcf,d,df+K

Lvl 1
4:5/25/33
2200 82 pixels (horizontal) 66~80 pixels (vertical)
Airborne from frames 9~54
Inv - 8:full

Lvl 2
4:5/25/33
3600 82 pixels (horizontal) 66~80 pixels (vertical)
Airborne from frames 9~54
Inv - 14:full

Lvl 3
4:5/25/33
5200 82 pixels (horizontal) 66~80 pixels (vertical)
Airborne from frames 9~54
Inv - 22:full

Again, I don't have the actual book, just the scans and some sections aren't very clear. If there's any mistake please let me know.

[ZenFire]

I mentioned the tidbits about lariat invulnerability in my previous post. Also, a lv3 doesn't need to be instant for it to be unblockable/unjumpable post-freeze, because of the extra time inputs are ignored.

CVS2 guidebook says SPD's are instant and 360+k has 1 frame startup (the close version aka suplex). The difference being that the SPD should grab ppl the first frame after the input is finished and the suplex needs one frame before grabbing.

[Nick T.]

Zangief likes biting when he grabs you.

[GunterJPN]

i'm seriously sitting here trying to think of a good match up for zangief and can't. this is gonna be tougher than i thought.

I always try to match him up against Sagat if possible. It's close to even for RC Gief. Honda is ok. Most mid-tiers are easy. Only matchups I try to avoid are Eagle (not enough practice yet - faced first Eagle in months, yesterday), Cammy (doable with patience and perfect execution, 2 things I don't have), and Chang (although, the best C-Gief in Tokyo does exceptionally well against Chang). Guile and Blanka can be a pain, but I'd rather face them than any of the three I mentioned.

[randomsuper]

can you explain why you feel those match ups are good? in my experience, they are horrible, but i'm not a gief player and have yet to play a gief worth remembering.

[WraithCo]

Hah, since I WAS the one who suggested this, it'd be really bad if I didn't contribute eh?

Quote below is from Buktooth's, "Whos' really the worst character" thread from a while back. Pick and choose stuff to pull out for discussion. Small correction, double suplex goes active on frame 2. So you can't use it for reversals against true meaties, but otherwise, the extra frame makes no real difference.


Zangief:

Pros:
-1 frame SPD. Not only is it the only 1 frame ground move in the game, it's also the command grab with the largest range. Jab SPD reaches 107 pixels (a lot farther than any super grab except for Raiden's), strong and fierce reach 96 and 86 pixels, respectively. Jab SPD goes far enough so that you can do some pretty crazy ticks with it, like 3 jabs then SPD (!) or even a fierce into SPD.
-1 frame double suplex. Nevermind what I just said about the SPD being the only 1 frame move. This is the most damaging command grab in the game (unless you count Iori/Todo/Rock/Yun's combo grabs), and also has the best combination of range and damage; All versions of this move reach 98 pixels, and the roundhouse version does 2900 damage. Also leaves Gief close enough to the opponent for another mix up.
-1 frame grabs offer a lot of benefits:
-You cannot get hit out of them unless it's an invincible move (grabs RCs though), meaning you can wake up with them or empty jump and grab. Wake up grab is a very powerful tool, as it gives Gief the second strongest wake up game of all next to Honda. You pretty much can't pressure Gief after knocking him down. If you're anywhere near him you run the risk of getting grabbed. If you try to jump up/cross up you can get lariated. You just have to stay at a safe distance and make him block something from afar as he gets up.
-Since you can't be hit out of a 1 frame grab, you can also interrupt poke strings with them if they're in range. We've all seen the local scrub Gief player who mashes 360s any time somebody gets remotely near them, and it's actually a decent tactic that forces people to play differently against them.
-You get a free grab on a lot of otherwise unpunishable moves like Sagat's and Guile's level 2 hotfoot/kick supers.
-On the ground, Gief has The Low Fierce. Huge range, lots of damage, also has a ton of active hitting frames. People who try to punish the whiff will often walk into the still extended fierce.
-Lots of good air to ground moves. Jumping straight up fierce beats most anything that isn't invincible.
-Low jump fierce goes really far and is difficult to uppercut. Very strong low jump game in general.
-RC lariats are good anti air and also useful on the ground. Combined with 1 frame grabs gives him a solid defense. Hard to punish if whiffed also since he can just move back.
-FAB has crazy range at 116 pixels. That's just past the max range of Gief's low short/forward/roundhouse. All levels have the same range, so you can get a lot of utility out of level 1 FABs.
-Jumping knees have a lot of priority (nothing like A3 and before days though) and stay out for most of the jump.
-Anti-air super is buff at level 2 or 3.

Cons:
-Against most of the top-tier (and lots of mid-tier), Gief gets kept out pretty easily. And unless he corners you (pretty tough to do), he generally doesn't do a whole lot of damage to you even if he does get in.
-Slow walking speed, worst dash ever.
-Whiffed grabs will totally get Gief killed. He eats a whole jump in combo if an opponent jumps out of a grab attempt.
-Jab SPD doesn't do nearly enough damage. Neither do any of his non-super grabs, for that matter. The risk/reward on the grabs isn't good enough.
-Without the threat of level 2/3 anti-air super, Gief doesn't really have much to keep you from jumping away from him. His only tick grab that has a mix up is low jabs. He can do low jabs then sweep if you try to jump out, but if he guesses wrong he's pushed out and has to work his way back in again.
-He's too big. He can't crouch under a lot of important moves, namely Sagat's standing fierce, Guile's backhand and Sakura's roundhouse hurricane. The former two really put a hurting on Gief.
-Until you corner the opponent, it's really hard for Zangief to keep momentum on anybody. Most of his throws put the opponent all the way across the screen except for his double suplex, which unfortunately switches sides with the opponent.
-Without RC, his anti-air options are kind of lacking. He especially has problems with max range jump ins and low jumps.
-Gief's preferred tick, standing/crouching short, isn't even safe at -5. That's right, his SHORTS are punishable on block.

Best Grooves:

K-Groove: Run and low jump is vital to Gief. Air JD makes it easier for Gief to get in, ground JDs pretty much guarantee SPDs if close enough. Raged Gief does a lot of damage. Gief can play very reckless in this groove, which is basically how he must be played.
N-Groove: Run and low jump, roll helps a bit too. RC lariats make his anti-air game really strong, also helps his ground game a lot. Lots of level 1 FABs to use.
P-Groove: Low jump. Parrying Gief can be difficult to keep out.

For the people who want to read the below summed up in 3 lines:
1) Gief's SPD makes normal poke strings unsafe. Abuse. If the other guy has any slop in their game, missing links or landing jumpins too high, make'em pay. RC lariats can serve as a ghetto DP, and with the walkback and minor invincibility, aren't a complete loss if they whiff.
2) Be careful about using the command throws. If the opponent jumps to escape and you whiff, your recovery is long enough for them to land a full jump in combo. Ouch. So on the flipside, if you're fighting against Zangief, you can actually kinda dare him to use the SPD and then guess a jump. If you go even on the guesses, you'll win. Gotta convince Gief not to spam on SPD if you want to properly pressure him.
3) Gief's normals have range, but are slow. You're not gonna win if you press your buttons at the same time as the opponent. You need to be pressing your button while they're still walking, not attacking. Goods news is since you outrange most other characters, there's plenty of opportunities to pick off people "on their way in." Take'em. Gief needs to scrap together damage whether he can get it. Whiffing cr. HP and st. HP isn't that dangerous. It can be punished, but it's not easy. So you don't have to be as careful throwing them out, as say Geese's cr. RH.




My own personal thoughts: Note, most of this is fairly obvious to anyone moderately experienced in fighting games, but I'm thinking the wiki should also be targeted towards helping the casual gamers. At some point, if I ever get unlazy, I might try my hand at writing an article on the topic of "earning or forcing your opponent to take damage." Basic stuff like a careful explanation of counterhit/throw mixups, basic high/low(last minute jumpin attack or skip it and go low), jumping for all the right reasons, and game plan optimization. But that probably won't happen :P. At any rate, for some footsie advice.

Gief's fierce and low roundhouse go out farther than most, and to get to Gief, the opponent has to go through that little zone where their longest ranged move will not hit, but they could potentially run into a fierce or be swept as they walk forward. Definitely, picking people off as they try to move in is a great way to pick up some free damage with Gief. As noted in the below post, cr. HP sticks out for years, so it's not easy to advance along the ground against it. St. HP can stuff a jump on startup, and if they're jumping outside st. HP range, it's pretty far away. Again, if you can get them to commit to a jump and you ended up not throwing the fierce, free damage. Yes you will guess wrong sometimes, but the odds are in Gief's favour, simply because you actually have something that hits at that range, they don't. So you actually have a small window of time to vary the timing of the fierce, which makes it easier to see the jump/evade coming. Also sometimes you'll end up in a situation where you're either just outside or inside Gief's cr. RH range, with the opponent blocking low. Keep your finger over RH, and the moment they stand up and you guess they're walking forwards or back, you bust them. They can't do anything from that range, so they have to move. And while they move, you can catch them not blocking. Yes, they will occasionally jump instead of walking forwards, and you will eat it. But if you've been doing a good job with antiair and been training them not to jump, it'll go.

On the defensive side of things:
Attacking Gief is never easy. Leaving holes can invite an SPD, accidentally uncomboing gets you SPD'd, if you have RC, lariats can be used as a DP, so they can't run a simple pattern based offense. Having basically "instant" attacks, allows him to break out of counterhit throw style mixups easier than some other characters. (Like, say for example, Geese. Outside of guessing a counter, Geese doesnt' have any reversal options that are specific to him. Random super, trying to jab back, etc. Everyone can do that. So against walking/running jabs, Geese can't really bust out if the opponent doesn't give him the opportunity to. Even if the pattern doesn't "combo", you still can't fight your way out of it.) If you're opponent is sloppy and doing jumpins that are too high, or using CH/throw mixups without using something that's throw invincible, you can pretty much mash out the 360 and bust them every time. If you think about it, if they don't bait the SPD, and simply try to beat you by hoping you screw up on your SPD attempt, you can probably do a safe SPD motion that ends at downback (try starting from back, rotate clockwise past down, to downback, then press punch). If you were late on the SPD, you block. If the SPD comes out, they get grabbed. Against someone who hasn't thought ou their offense, they'll pretty much commit suicide attacking you.

In terms of overall gameplan:
My personal impression of Gief is that since he can't really hurt you with strikes in one shot. Like if you get FAB'd, it's 7000 life. But if you chose to backdash or something, the worst that can happen is you get fierced or swept. So you can always cheat towards stuff that avoids throws, since he won't hurt you too bad for guessing wrong. Same deal for avoiding 360's. Sure, sometimes you guess wrong, you get SPD'd, you take a chunk of damage, 2100-2700. But on the other hand, a lot of people can actually hit Gief for more damage with a jumpin combo than the SPD deals, around 3000+. So even if you trade 50:50, it doesn't favour Gief. Anyways, that being said, I think it's difficult for Gief to truly force a super opportunity, especially if you're K-gief. You have to make some right guesses, and you're opponent some wrong ones, just to get in range to setup the 720. So you're definitely not going to hit the super every match, so try to force the pace of the match towards single hits poke stuff. Gief still hits hard, you can RC lariat to pick off some pokes for damage, and even on whiff you can retreat + the lariats have some natural invincibility to help cover. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be aggressive with Gief and try to threaten them with the 50/50. It's just that your entire gameplan with Gief shouldn't be based around it. You should feel capable of winning or at least scoring enough damage so that Gief "did his job," without the super.

[kcxj]

Hey, this is cool. I like this discussion. It's the way the discussion forum should be, as well as the wiki being targeted towards and informational for novice players (like the strategy section in the back of the CvS2 guidebook).
In terms of overall gameplan:
My personal impression of Gief is that since he can't really hurt you with strikes in one shot. Like if you get FAB'd, it's 7000 life. But if you chose to backdash or something, the worst that can happen is you get fierced or swept. So you can always cheat towards stuff that avoids throws, since he won't hurt you too bad for guessing wrong. Same deal for avoiding 360's. Sure, sometimes you guess wrong, you get SPD'd, you take a chunk of damage, 2100-2700. But on the other hand, a lot of people can actually hit Gief for more damage with a jumpin combo than the SPD deals, around 3000+. So even if you trade 50:50, it doesn't favour Gief. Anyways, that being said, I think it's difficult for Gief to truly force a super opportunity, especially if you're K-gief. You have to make some right guesses, and you're opponent some wrong ones, just to get in range to setup the 720. So you're definitely not going to hit the super every match, so try to force the pace of the match towards single hits poke stuff. Gief still hits hard, you can RC lariat to pick off some pokes for damage, and even on whiff you can retreat + the lariats have some natural invincibility to help cover.
I just wanted to comment that backdashing away from Gief isn't a good idea when you need to escape a 50/50 guess situation. Kyo, Chun-li, and many other characters can be air grab supered right out of their backdash animation.

If you must take a guess that avoids the 720 super, it's more rewarding to low jump forward with a deep low jump attack so you can do a combo. Not only do you avoid the 720, but you get to do a combo you wouldn't have been able to do had you mearly backdashed.

I think K-Zangief is the best Zangief. As for Zangief not being able to duck Sagat's far s.HP and Sakura's roundhouse Hurricane kick, K-groove is the answer. Just Defend is what lets him compete with the top tier characters.

Gief can sweep Sagat back after JDing the far standing fierce, and he can do a free SPD after JDing the Sakura roundhouse Hurricane kick, as well as Chun's Spinning Bird Kick.

Nobody wants to be close to a raged K-Gief. If you're timid in your gameplan however, the opponent won't care and won't respect you. The way to make him scared is to be as random as possible in burning your supers. Making them think you're crazy will get them to hesitate and play timid themselves.

The air grab super is deceptively hard to punish. If you guess wrong and whiff, and the opponent tries to punish you with a ground combo, you have invincibilty frames when you land and can SPD them for free. So don't be shy about burning it as a random guess. The only characters that can really hurt you for whiff it are A-Bison with his CC, Kyo with his launching kicks, or Sagat with his High Tiger Cannon. At worst, you'll eat a jumping hard kick from everybody else (which is good because it starts raging you up again).

down-back MK xx Glowing Hand combo does the same amount of damage as doing a fierce SPD, but it also has the advantage of setting up a 50/50 guess situation whenever you have super meter (and was unable to punish your opponent's mistake with the super in the first place). The fierce glowing hand leaves you at -7 and open to fast d.MK retaliation even on the hit, but the strong glowing hand is safe and lets you do a random 720 or air super guess.

[WraithCo]

[Edit: Apparently Gief can't sweep back st. HP. At least not guaranteed, only if they didn't block.]

[Edit 2: Retested the dash scenario, I was doing the FAB too late. Thanks kcxj. Yes I saw that video where the vice got ARS'd for dashing in, but I thought that was exceptional. Heh.]

Short version of the retest:
Point blank range: C-Blanka (player in corner) vs. K-Zangief (dummy).
FAB will grab: late forward/backdash (early frames of backdash are apparently grounded, that's surprising to me.), KKK forward hop.
ARS will grab: early forward/backdash. Both KKK hops. Blanka balls, etc.

Some general backdash notes:
So backdashes do have a couple frames of startup, where they are grounded, before they go airborne. Which explains why a late dash can be grabbed by FAB/SPD, and why the ARS whiffs (they're not off the ground, they can't be grabbed.) Even the dashes that totally look on the ground can be grabbed. (Ryu, Sagat forward dashes), just the dashes do have to make it to their airborne phase.

Apparently you can't reversal backdash (Actually, maybe you can, but since the first few frames of the backdash are grounded, it doesn't make a difference.) I was testing to see if I could a get a character to flip like they got hit in the air on a meaty setup, no luck. Backdashes result in block, forward results in just getting hit.



Thinking up ways to run away from Gief, is strangely enough, a fairly enjoyable activity for me. I always enjoyed watching good runaway, and taking advantage of sloppy play. Does anyone remember reading Popoblo's blog on Evo, the year that Daigo got knocked out by I think, Ratio1Beatdown? And before hand, he said he was gonna runaway from Daigo and play it like chess? That's the kind of thing that impresses me.

As an example, against raged K-Zangief, with Blanka, you want to basically stall for time, and trade distance for safety. Definitely, you want to give ground as slowly as possible, but it's better to give ground than risk getting grabbed, or rather, letting Gief get into range to grab. If Zangief jumps, you almost always have the option of balling away to freedom under him, which basically means he has to work his way in all over again. You could also try to straight up beat him, up ball, jump fierce, jumping into him with an attack, late RC ball, etc. All these have different JD timings, and even if they do get the JD, the worst that can happen is they hit you once and you flip to your feet. Definitely, you want to try and minimize the amount of damage you take from jump / JD my way in type Gief's. At any rate, once they give up on normal jump/JD, I try to keep Zangief out at around cr. HP or so range, if they try to low jump from there, you can back hop, keeps Gief in front of you, and you can harass him as he lands. Occasionally you want to go on short spurts of offense, if the Gief tries to gain ground by walking forward and blocking to cover ground.

Now this may not be true, but I personally feel that if you weren't in the corner and you got supered, you probably could've avoided it, simply because you shouldn't have been there in the first place. Definitely not always true, but that's pretty much how I see the fight. Gief doesn't magically gain ground, poking, with his fierce and stuff won't knock you over, he can't set a super attempt off that. You lose a lot of ground if you get swept, but if you have quick recovery, you're still out of reach. His run isn't particularly fast, his dash doesn't go very far, he's not gonna break your range like say Cammy can. Eventually you will run out of space, but hopefully by then, you've burned off a huge chunk of time, he won't have much to work with. If they panic trying to land the super, usually the attempts become really obvious, or you can simply stick to options that trade but can't get you supered in the end (at least not usually).

[GunterJPN]

can you explain why you feel those match ups are good? in my experience, they are horrible, but i'm not a gief player and have yet to play a gief worth remembering.

Against Sagat, RC Lariats will take out any poke he has, basically. Plus, it's a knockdown. Against C-Sagat, you can roll in for better positioning. Cover his wake up with RC Punch Lariat. It hits him even if he's crouching, you can do it out of his throw range, and it will go through and hit almost anything he has (EVEN Level 2 Hotfoot). Against most Sagats (i.e. those without experience fighting RC Gief), that's all you need. If they are familiar with the match, you add c.forward poke to the match to keep him out with a (fairly) quick poke, and c.strongs if he jumps (the range for the c.forward has him at a far ranged jump - for closer jumps, RC Lariat). You want to be looking for low tigers the whole time, and be at the sweet range for a roll, Jab SPD. RC Running Grab mixed in every now and then is good, because "some" Sagats like to do c.fierce. Also, when you knock him down with a Lariat and roll in, you push him to the corner, which allows for a jump in, drop through CC.

Against Honda, you want to stay full screen with random Lariats. The Honda has three options: He can jump in, Headbutt, or HHS. For a jump in, c.strong or RC Lariat. a Headbutt will be beaten by a Lariat, so mess up his timing by alternating KKK and PPP. HHS is his safest bet, but it sometimes trades, and even on a hit, it doesn't do much damage. Plus, when you have him conditioned into going for that, you can do roll behind SPD.

Blanka, you want to stay on the ground with your standard pokes - c.fierce, c.fierce, s.forward, c.roundhouse (yes, c.fierce deserves two mentions). Most Blankas cannot jump at you because of RC Lariat. Low jumps are a bit harder to see, but if you're really looking for them, you can take them out. A-Blanka is of course harder, but he's hard for everyone. You also want to stay at the sweet range where RC Lariat is safe - it will take out his regular c.fierce but is out of range for his slide. When Blanka is looking for slides, look to block a slide that is closer than max range, so you can c.fierce it back. Remember to block all Blanka Balls high, so you can s.fierce it back. Also remember that you can grab electricity, even Running Grabs.

Guile, you want to spend the first part of the match full screen. Cancel Sonic Booms with Green Hands to build meter. In fact, jump back roundhouse, whiff Green Hand is the best way to build meter. Guile will usually follow Sonic Booms with a walk up backfist, which you can RC Lariat; a walk up c.forward, which you can s.short; or a step-forward roundhouse, which you can either hit or make whiff with an RC Punch Lariat (since you can also take out the backfists), or I believe you can hit it with an RC Kick Lariat. 90% of the Guiles in the world will be walking back more than they are walking forward, which helps you get them in the corner for a drop through CC.

Incidentally, although Chang and Cammy are 2 of the hardest for me, I know WHAT to do in the matches. Aganst Chang, you want to sweep Choi out of the way when he comes in by ground (db.forward or roundhouse - if you use db.forward, cancel it into a Green Hand to gain ground). RC Running Grab also does wonders. Other than that, it's your standard footsie match. Cammy, the key move is RC Kick Lariat. You want to build meter the whole match and hope to hit random drills and walk up roundhouses with the Lariats. When you have meter, you can drop through CC, but midscreen it's not really worth it. Try to make the match last as long as possible.

[randomsuper]

i guess i'll have to see it to believe it. it sounds doable but if the opponent catches on, i see gief in trouble. good strategy though.

[FullMetalRoss]

Just as an extra note too kcxj's post, I believe Chun-li can just in general be reversal SPD'd out of SBK, SBK is -2 on block, so a true reversal of 1 frame should be able to grab it everytime, unless htere is something weird about the dropped frame rule that makes this impossible.

Gunter what is the midscreen custom you use?

Playing against rolento do you go for the otg Super finisher?

Oh and as an extra anti-air note RC running grab is also bomb anti-air against moves that are sort of far out... At least in my experience they work very well. But my gief isn't that great.

Oh, also in Low jump grooves, low jump lk and mk work really well as pokes from afar when used randomly.

What's the best whiff low jump into 360 or super move?

[GunterJPN]

Gunter what is the midscreen custom you use?

Playing against rolento do you go for the otg Super finisher?

Oh and as an extra anti-air note RC running grab is also bomb anti-air against moves that are sort of far out... At least in my experience they work very well. But my gief isn't that great.

Oh, also in Low jump grooves, low jump lk and mk work really well as pokes from afar when used randomly.

What's the best whiff low jump into 360 or super move?

http://namonaki.com/games/zangief.html <-- Those are the CCs I use. 98% of the time it is the first one in the "specific" section, sometimes off of a walk-in Lariat that hits on the last hit. I don't normally go for midscreens unless I'm messing around. I start off with Gief, so it isn't completely necessary for me to use the meter. I tend to go for roll in activates against Rolentos, however... although that's mainly so I can show off.

I also use RC Running Grab for anti-air sometimes, but I just prefer the ease of RC Lariats. I will say that my overall game improved drastically when I started to include RC Running Grab in my game... I still have to practice it more, but it's made Chang and Hibiki fights a lot easier.

I wouldn't be able to tell you what to do in a low jump groove, sorry. His low jump fierce is very good, but I normally see it connect/be blocked. There are a few good K-Gief players around, but I haven't seen them lately.

[Mizuki]

If he had his headbutt from A3, he'd be hella dope.

[Dentron]

i dont know about all that shit that was just said but i do know the following are awesome:

1. Punching kids in the head with s./c. hp

2. low jump hp, 360+hk

[FullMetalRoss]

If he had his headbutt from A3, he'd be hella dope.

He has the headbutt, it does hella dizzy, one of Maj's old vids has the full dizzy combo in it I think.


Gunter:

Ah okay thats cool. I figured you'd be starting gief first I think thats always the best place for him.

Anybody else like gief anywhere but first? As far as batteries go he can be okay, though with meter he gets scarier but I don't think it's necessary. This is probably why people play him in K alot, not really for the damage but because on a team you don't have to worry about meter management, so you get super scary first character gief, plus still got meter with your "user" and "anchor" characters.

[WraithCo]

Short note to Kabuki:
He probably means Zangief's a3 ground move, the hopping headbutt. Kara activate with it, and Zangief goes flying across the screen and its grabby time.

For the dummy stuff: P2 dummy C-groove Sagat all way into the right corner, player K-Zangief on the left. Used the C-groove as a distance measure.

In terms of move reach, st. fierce has the most reach, then cr. fierce, then cr. RH. Both fierces actually cover the same amount of distance, but Gief takes a little step forward for the st. fierce. That of course can work for and against you. Note however, cr. fierce can appear to have equal or better reach sometimes, mainly because against crouchers, st. fierce has to hit their head or will whiff, while cr. fierce loves the fact that crouchers get fatter.

For fun training mode stuff.
Zangief's st. fierce vs Sagat's st. fierce. When both moves are clearly out of range, and they can only hit each other's arms, Sagat's arm will usually hit Gief's arm clean. The only time it will trade is if Gief's fierce is already out and hitting, and Sagat's arm extends into that. Then it trades. Sagat's fierce is like that, since his arm starts hitting as soon as it extends, Sagat can punch into an already extended fierce and get a trade. On the flip side, Gief's arm kinda sticks out before it starts hitting, so punching into a fierce gets Gief owned a lot. So pretty much the only way for Gief to win is to hit back a whiffed fierce, or have his move out well in advance and trade. In terms of reach, including the little forward movement that Gief makes doing the fierce, Sagat st. Fierce and Gief st. fierce have mostly the same reach, i.e. if one whiffs, so will the other. There is a very small area, where Gief's fierce WILL reach, and Sagat's will not. However, it's too small to be of any practical use. Note, this does not take into account stuff like Sagat attempting to do a second fierce, and you hit his forward leg with your Gief fierce already out. For those people who want to try for themselves, set the training dummy as Sagat, walk it back into the corner, then record it to do fierce, then stand still. As long as Gief is standing behind the C in C-groove (on the dummy's bar), the Sagat fierce will whiff.

Fun note about Sagat's st. Fierce. If Zangief is crouching/crouch blocking, Sagat's st. fierce loses a little bit of reach. You'll find there's at the right range, if you stand/stand block, you'll get hit by the fierce, but it whiffs on crouching Gief. Could be useful for some whiff punish trick like, crouch, stand up fierce (because at this range, Zangief's fist can actually reach Sagat's body).

Gief's cr. fierce shows similar properties in terms of trading. Gief's cr. Fierce seems to have less reach than Sagat's st. Fierce, due to the aforementioned missing step. If Sagat's st. fierce whiffs, you can't hit his body with cr. Fierce if he remains standing, unless it's you're crouching at the range where Sagat's st. Fierce just barely whiffs. If he crouches, he's easy to hit though, see below.

Gief's cr. Roundhouse has clearly shorter reach than Sagat's fierce, but has the very nice property that Zangief is low enough that he'll go right under the fierce. The same applies to cr. MK. So if you and your opponent hit your buttons at the same time, Gief will sneak right under and trip Sagat. Since Sagat's leg is stepped forward, as long as he pressed fierce, it will not whiff. On the other hand, in a JD situation, if Sagat hits with the tip of his arm, and Zangief JD's, the cr. RH can whiff because it's out of range (no knee to hit). Besides that, after retesting in training mode, I recorded a dummy that could not be hit back by cr. RH. I spent at least 10 min trying, and failed to score any connected RH's. Then within the next 30-40 seconds, I got a couple of cr. MK's to connect. So this would suggest that Sagat's st. Fierce is indeed -9, which is why cr. MK can sometimes work with strict timing, but cr. RH never worked. Note, for people who want to test this yourself. Don't hit fierce, then hold down back immediately for the dummy. For some reason this allows the dummy to get hit. No idea why. Try to time your block like a JD, and you should get the same result I did.

Against Sagat's cr. fierce, Zangief's st. fierce is incapable of hitting the extended limb, it goes right over top. So it only connects if Gief's fist reaches Sagat's head. However, at that range, Sagat's cr. HP will hit Zangief's knee as he steps forward to do the fierce. So, you won't win if both moves come out at the same time. It can whiff punish, but I'd rather use crouching fierce, see below.

Sagat and Gief cr. Fierces can hit each other's extended limbs, but again, because of how Sagat extends his limb, he tends to either beat or trade with Gief. However, Sagat seems to get pretty fat when he crouches. You'll find that Gief's cr. Fierce actually has quite a bit more range than Gief st. Fierce against crouching Sagat. However, the same applies to Sagat's crouching fierce, Gief is fat when ducking too. If you're ducking with Gief, Sagat's cr. fierce has roughly equivalent range to the st. fierce. It'll connect if you stand past the C in C-groove. However, if you're standing with gief, you can go as far as the G, just behind the R. At any rate, Gief's cr. fierce has a slight edge on Sagat's cr. fierce. However, you can boost this edge by simply standing at range so Sagat's cr. Fierce whiffs, then you do your own cr. Fierce. Fun stuff.

As for cr. RH, if you could sweep him, he can hit you with cr. Fierce. Equal range, his move is slightly faster, but you get a knockdown. You don't get a range bonus on cr. RH like you do for cr. HP sadly, so yeah.

[FullMetalRoss]

Ohhhh haha. Yeah I totally forgot about that....

man it's too bad there aren't any cool useful kattobi's like that in CVS 2.

Anyway back to the gief!

[Hail And Kill]

I believe Sir Phobos created K Zangief in the united states. But Misterbean has a good k-zangief as well.

[Leezy]

OMG...

SoCal represent...

I love how Gene's sig links Albert's house with Communism.

[Mihai]

K-Gief stuff today! (after work/sleep) :sweat:

[WraithCo]

Since I'm guessing people won't read through my above post: I'll just summarize the key points:
1) After JDing Sagat st. fierce, cr. RH will not catch them if they block. cr. MK just barely makes it, but it's not even close to being reliable (1 frame window), and the payoff is low. If they have JD, cr. MK will fail as well.
2) If thrown out at the same time or if both hitboxes go active at the same time, Zangief's fierces tend to lose (most of the time), or trade at best. Hitting Sagat's limbs will either lose or trade, so you do need to aim for his body for better results.
3) Zangief cr. MK/RH goes under Sagat st. Fierce. You can even be slightly late on pressing the kick buttons and it'll still go.
4) Sagat can st. fierce a standing Zangief at a slightly farther range than a crouching Zangief.
5) Zangief can cr. HP Sagat at a significantly further distance if Sagat crouches, and Sagat's cr. HP likewise gains a significant amount of reach is Gief crouches. If both characters are crouching, Zangief has a slight range advantage to his fierce. Also, due to this property, it is much easier to hit back a whiffed Sagat cr. HP with a Gief cr. HP, than a Gief st. HP. Gief st. HP has to make it all the way to Sagat's head, while cr. HP can tag his widened body. So cr. HP actually fees like it has MORE range than st. HP in this situation. On the other hand, if you're actually in range that ducking would get you hit by Sagat's cr. HP, you may simply want to stay standing while the move whiffs, then hit you're fierce after.
6) Cute tricks and wishful thinking: (which won't happen very often): You could try to bait a Sagat st. fierce that would normally hit, but you're crouching so it whiffs. Then stand up and fierce it back. Against cr. HP, if you're at the magic range where it won't hit standing opponents, simply block high. He's got nothing that'll reach you anyways. If he gets suckered and presses cr. HP, whiff punish as you please. If it's that close, st. HP will make it easily, but do not press the button early, or Gief's knee will get hit when he steps forward.

[Rokiseph]

Hi,

Another K-Gief user here.

What I've been doing is that if Sagat throws out S.HP a lot, I do Giefs. S.HK back. I either hit or trade, My favour! If I throw out at the right time, I will drop my body and kick his punch. If I miss, I've dropped on the floor and he doesn't hit me. If I do it a slightly too close, we trade. Meh, i don't mind the trade.

Please experiment and find out for yourself. It works.

Edit : I neglected to add that theres another tricky thing to do with K-Gief.
If Sagat is spamming his S.HP at you, short jump straight up and do your head butt. Once you're used to it (The Distance), you'll most likely hit or trade (Again) for a 40+ amount of Dizzy. If he's stupid enough to let you do it twice in a row, he's dizzied.

[Hail And Kill]

OMG...

SoCal represent...

I love how Gene's sig links Albert's house with Communism.

You know it baby!

[WraithCo]

Since most people won't see the edit.
So I eat have to eat crow for screwing up my training mode, and making bad assumptions hehe. Dashes CAN be grabbed by ARS, my timing was just bad.
Basically what happened was off the st. short -> FAB, I was timing the FAB late, and backdashed late all the time. Backdashing late avoids the ARS because backdashes aren't off the ground instantly, and by the time the FAB went off, they were off the ground. Guilty Gear, this is not.

In other news, I decided to definitively test to see whether mashing on buttons removes the throw invincibility you normally get when coming out of block or hitstun. And I can say 100% that it does. Everyone always knew that you could grab reversal RC's early, so I just wanted to test to see if hitting ANY button would remove the invincibility. It does. So now everyone who says, "But I was mashing on jab to escape a throw attempt", has a valid excuse. This also means grabbing RC scouter and stuff is not the tight window I thought it was. Again, this falls under the suspected, but no one really sat down and tested it I think. Now it is.

Test cases:
Dummy Zangief: cr. jab (+5), link SPD. When played, the dummy does a cr. jab, then does the pile driver whiff animation. 2nd test was cr. jab, hold forward fierce. Gief does a cr. jab, walk a tad st. fierce.
Blanka: Tried "reversal" st. fierce, then other buttons. Rolling (not ball), Reversal KKK dashes, Blanka ball.

Summary:
All of the above get grabbed.

Other things that probably should be included on the wiki:
command grabs off blockstrings:
From point blank:
Off any combination of 3 jabs/shorts. All leave you out of range of jab piledriver, so none of your normal grabs work. :(
Combination of 2 jabs/shorts. If started from pointblank, you're still in range for jab/strong piledriver (only fierce whiffs), and the upclose version of 360+K. If not started from point blank, jab piledriver is the safe option, 360+K can work, but use your discretion.
Green hand cannot combo off jabs/shorts (Awww.)

st. short -> SPD as a tick. It is possible to do the SPD too early, so that the grab will whiff, if they didn't do anything. So you want to be a little slack on the timing, if you do it as soon as possible, you whiff. Hmm.

360+K confirmed to have 1 frame startup.
Tried reversalling it against Sagat cr. RH (knockdown), lay down meaty cr. HP. Got the SPD and FAB to go, but 360+K got hit, but displayed the reversal message.

That being said, you would think that
st. short, link 360+K should never whiff. Supposedly the -5 from the short, and the extra 1 frame startup for the 360+K should mean it never whiffs (startup of 6, versus 6 frame can't grab window)? Sadly, untrue. It's possible to get the whiffed 360+K (Running bear grab, not the suplex.) linking it after st. short. Probably because the game checks on frame 1 to see if the opponent is throwable, and then chooses to do either the suplex, or the RBG on frame 2.

[ZenFire]

In other news, I decided to definitively test to see whether mashing on buttons removes the throw invincibility you normally get when coming out of block or hitstun. And I can say 100% that it does.
that's a neat lil tidbit. I knew about the rolls/rc's being early grabbable but didn't know it applied ot everything else as well.

It's possible to get the whiffed 360+K (Running bear grab, not the suplex.) linking it after st. short. Probably because the game checks on frame 1 to see if the opponent is throwable, and then chooses to do either the suplex, or the RBG on frame 2.
Yes, I noticed this as well, but it makes sense when you think about it. It's funny in a nerdy kinda way how technically there is no whiffed animation for the Suplex cmd grab.

About this though
So now everyone who says, "But I was mashing on jab to escape a throw attempt", has a valid excuse.
Yes, but just barely if I'm getting this right. Since attempting a throw too early on a rising opponent results in a close hp/hk then getting the actual throw to come out would mean that the other player is doing something which puts them into a throwable state, correct? If that's the case then considering the usual 3 frame startup for c.lp and equal startup for a punch throw, then getting grabbed early out of a jab (since grabs beat hits) could only happen if the jab and the throw started on the exact same frame. Pretty freak accident if/when it does happen.

From a programmer's point of view I think it's funny how they could even manage to pull that off. They're probably interleaveing the character actions/decisions for both characters or something. Because, for the throw to come out instead of the close s.hp the other player's throwable state would have to have changed already, which means that the input for the other player was already read and processed to a certain degree, but then the throw input of the attacking player is being processed now.... wouldn't that mean that p2 could early throw p1's 3 frame jab, but that p1 could not throw p2's 3 frame jab? I'm jsut thinking out loud now, I'm sure there's tons of ways to solve such a problem and I'm sidetracking too much.

[Maj]

Ok, so now we gotta start adding this stuff to the wiki. Any volunteers?

[UCRJesse]

i volunteer maj

[gridman]

i volunteer maj

2nded

[Maj]

So, how's this gonna work? You guys can basically just put up whatever you see fit, then post a link in this thread when you're done. I guess then everyone can take a look and review your choices, then we'll discuss some more to iron out the details. If you guys need anything more (like if the frame data is incomplete or you want some extra info about combo damage), let us know.

[Maj]

Hm, so, i've noticed that we're not exactly making much progress here. If you guys lost interest, then let us know so that we can elect another champ to represent the people.

Cuz, honestly, as brilliant as this is ...

Advanced Strategy

Shit bitch just do some piledrivers and shit. Roll cancel that fierce lariat vs. fat characters and you know they ain't gonna do nothing about it.

... i feel that the omission of the best terrible anti-air move in CvS2 (Gief's vertical j.U+HP) needs to be rectified. If we falter in this duty, we shall have no right to call ourselves CvS2 players.

[ZenFire]

I added a glob of text to the advanced strategy splitting it into what IMO are the 3 main styles of play Gief has to deal with. At the end of every option there is a decription of what the down-side of that tactic is.

EDIT: Sorry, but I removed what was there earlier, though it was funny it wasn't very useful IMO ><

[Akutabi Gamma]

He has the headbutt, it does hella dizzy, one of Maj's old vids has the full dizzy combo in it I think.
Link to vid if possible plz?
OK, sorry if this was posetd before, but damn...K-Gief scares me now... (http://f44.aaa.livedoor.jp/~yappa/charactor/zangiefu.html)

[ZenFire]

try finding that "ode to the 2-hit combo" video, it has gief doing deep headbutt into jump instant headbutt for dizzy. 40 stun x2 dizzies everyone in the game.

[Dummie]

Let me smoke some herb first!... and play me K-Zangief...:looney:

[gridman]

Giefs best grooves besides K?

Id say in order - K, N, C, P, S, A

K is ovbious - JD into 360 is hella good. JD lets him jump in a little more lenient and he can walk up jd - 360 if in range. Scary with rage

N - RC Lariat for perfect anti air, pop tricks, stored super, cant jump anymore

C - RC lariat for perfect anti air, no one jumps on gief with level 3 , hard time getting in without lucky roll

P - parry into 360 = half assed jd into 360. takes forever to build a bar on something that is almost never guaranteed.

S - only has level 3's when dead, dodge xx 360 is OKAY at best but gets old fast. level 1 anti air super blows

A - no good custom, a bunch of other better battieres. level 1's arent good at all. nothing going for him here but RC's which he gets in N and C

[Lord Odin]

Giefs best grooves besides K?

Id say in order - K, N, C, P, S, A

K is ovbious - JD into 360 is hella good. JD lets him jump in a little more lenient and he can walk up jd - 360 if in range. Scary with rage

N - RC Lariat for perfect anti air, pop tricks, stored super, cant jump anymore

C - RC lariat for perfect anti air, no one jumps on gief with level 3 , hard time getting in without lucky roll

P - parry into 360 = half assed jd into 360. takes forever to build a bar on something that is almost never guaranteed.

S - only has level 3's when dead, dodge xx 360 is OKAY at best but gets old fast. level 1 anti air super blows

A - no good custom, a bunch of other better battieres. level 1's arent good at all. nothing going for him here but RC's which he gets in N and C



i think it would be k,p, then c, n and a

[GunterJPN]

I would rank Gief's best grooves as K, C, P, N, A, S. In order to understand this, I think you have to accept that some common assumptions about Gief are wrong:

1. K and P are good because of JD/parry -> SPD.

Think of how you play against Gief. Since classic, the main objective when going up against Gief is to keep him the fuck out. His most threatening weapon is his SPD. Keep him out of its range and you're halfway on the way to winning the match. That being said, you can understand why this assumption is wrong (well, half wrong). If the opponent is playing the game correctly, if I JD or parry, I will be out of range for my SPD. K and P ARE good for Gief, but it's not because of the JD/parry -> SPD factor. The two grooves are good for Gief because it allows Gief to theoretically jump in for free (sans air grabs). This allows Gief to be more mobile by giving him the option of jumping in. What gives K the advantage over P is obvious - more level 3s per round, increased damage when raged (esp. with grabs - as the natural reaction against a raged opponent is to sit there and block), and run. However, run on its own does not make Gief better. In fact, I believe it makes him worse. What run gives to K is the opening to actually USE the JD -> SPD factor. Running in lets Gief close the distance while still being grounded. He can get into the range of the SPD a lot easier, and with good reactions/anticipation, can JD attacks to lead to an SPD. P has dash, which by itself is good - but he is airborne during the dash so it cannot be combined with parry.

2. His level 1s are worthless.

I don't know where the assumption that Gief's level ones are worthless came from, but I think it was from someone who doesn't play Gief. Gief's AIR SUPER is pretty worthless at level 1, but his FAB is VERY good at level 1. It offers a longer reach than an SPD and is also harder to jump out of. This, combined with RCs, gives the edge to C over P, IMO. They both have a stored level 3 and dash, so the differences are in the presence/lack of low jump, parry, and roll, and the difference in the meter. Low jump is good, that's not under question. What you should be asking is how good is it? The parry issue was addressed above. I believe that rolls and the meter difference do more than enough to make up for the lack of a low jump in C. Rolls, in moderation, are the best way to put Gief in range for his SPD. Rolling is especially effective against projectiles, when spaced correctly. Plus, rolling = RCs. The difference in meter means that Gief has the threat of an FAB for more of the match, PLUS he can AC out of pressure situations. This gives the edge to C for second, but P is a close third.

3. He has no good CCs.

N is fourth because it basically isn't K, C, or P. Rolls/RCs, low jump, and the presence of a level 3 all place them above A and S. Even though I use A-Gief, I wouldn't place him over N. The only groove I place A over is S, because of misconceptions 3 and 4. Many people think Gief has no good CCs, but their definition of a "good" CC is too strict. He actually has a VERY good CC, the only problem is that it's near the corner. The problem is getting the opponent to the corner. This is a lot easier than most people would think. Gief's roll is very instrumental. RC Lariats knock the opponent down, and allow Gief to roll in. especially against grooves without safe fall. RC Running Grab is also good, but riskier. You can also walk back from the start, stalling and building meter. Lure the opponent in and switch sides. This can be done with a double suplex, a crossup roll, or jumping/rolling over after a knockdown. Now that the opponent is in the corner, Gief can use his CC in one of 3 major ways - drop through CC, anti-air, or combo'd after a d/b roundhouse or a walk-up Lariat that hits late. The last option is the most useful. It is the ONLY way to combo into Gief's supers, in ANY groove.

4. Dodge SPD is good.

The last misconception about Gief's groove choice is actually a result of being ignorant of S's flaws. S-Gief can be somewhat effective, but the Dodge -> SPD factor isn't the main reason. People with experience against S know that the best counter to a dodge is to throw. The SPD can be done outside of most characters' throw ranges, but if you're ready for it, you can avoid the grab pretty easily by getting yourself airborne (jumping, dashing/hopping back, etc.). Dodge -> grab is very gimmicky. It works at first, but once people catch on, it's no longer effective. Low jump is by far the best thing about S-groove, but you get those in K and P, plus far better options.

However, what people must remember is that CvS2 is for all intents and purposes a team game. Although K is the best groove for Gief, it's not like you can use multiple grooves on the same team. The reason I use Gief in A is not because of the things that Gief can or cannot do in A. It's because I have Blanka and Bison to make up for any mistakes Gief makes. I've been a Gief player since classic, and he's by far the character I use the best. Using him combined with the best groove and the 2 characters that are best in that groove gives me pretty good results.

[Strider2k2]

This is a good thread. I'm currently using N-Gief and am having fun abusing the roll --> SPD when i play casuals. Although i dunno how i'll stand against high level players...