Let's talk about Sagat.

[kimjongiLL]

I'm trying to make the awesomest Sagat strategy and matchup thread ever and I want everybody else's feedback and input so we can have a high level compendium going.

Play nice. No personal attacks or insulting other people's posts. Any ignorant or asshat responses will be deleted. Opinions and facts. Nothing else.

Good luck. Have fun.

---------

Combos:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=128536

Match Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVKx9gChO_M

[kimjongiLL]

I did some testing in training mode with K-Sagat vs. A-Claw.

Two of Vega's primary moves are d.MK and d.MP.

If you JD the d.MP at max range (only the tip of the claw), there's nothing that can be done. If you JD any closer however, that's a free sweep or d.HP xx super for Sagat.

At close range and after blocking Vega's Claw Roll...

Sagat's d.LK and d.MK have more priority than both Vega's d.MP and d.MK. Immediately after blocking the Vega Roll, you can take a guess and stick out either d.LK or d.MK and buffer a super input into it. If Vega hit either of his likely d.MP or d.MK buttons, you will counter hit his limb and auto cancel into Low Tiger Cannon super. If Vega jumps at you directly after you block his Claw Roll, you recover in time from the whiffed d.LK or d.MK to hit him with an anti-air super or Tiger Uppercut.

After JDing all the hits of the Vega Claw Roll...

The guaranteed punishments are Sagat's three frame Tiger Uppercut or his Hotfoot super. It's possible to punish with Sagat's three frame d.LK, but it is easier to buffer special moves using a "double tap" when you come out of JD stun animation. With double tap, you get four chances for you reversal move to come out. With a normal attack, you only get once chance to hit the button and your timing needs to be impeccable.

[geadom]

C-Sagat Vs K-Sagat: Go for the Guard Break everytime you get in. St. LP x2, Cr. HP is very good for this. When he's raged ONLY USE st. LK to poke and Cr. HP (DONT WHIFF ANYTHING!) and St. HK his jumpins or Jump back HK.

When you break his guard Lvl 2 his ass and again, stay calm, dont jump, and dont throw anything more than St.lk/cr.HP. If he's the type that likes to JD everything BAIT him w.St. LK and see how he reacts. if he pokes back always, you can get in rolling/jumping. If he doesn't, build meter (cr. MP is good) or trhow.


C-Sagat Vs K-Cammy (lil' bitch )

St. Lk is the poke to use in this fight. The most important thing in this fight is NOT LETTING CAMMT JUMP IN /GET IN on you. St. LK her ass and watch how she reacts. If she JD's and tneh pokes, ROLL and punish HARD. If he trades St. Lk w/ her st.HP use your ST HP XX lvl 2/3 Tiger cannon. Also use SMART low tiger shots, against her drills/pokes (RC'ed if you like). DONT EVER JUMP on Cammy. JUMP UP (neutral jump up) and use you HK is VERY good. There you can bait a drill (PUNISH HARD) or poke (which you j.HK should kick). If she uses St. HK Roll it and Punish.

Overall :

Dont randomly roll. EVER.
Dont jump in that biatch.NEVER EVER.
Dont let her jump/get in on you.
St. LK her ass and wait to how she reacts. THAT's her weakness.
Try to always have a LVL2 to punish mistakes hard.

Next: A/C Blanka.

[geadom]

A/C Blanka:

Train yourself to NEVER EVER EVER let blanka (A w/out meter) jump. EVER. HP Tiger Uppercut it ALWAYS. And if you haver Lvl2 / 3 (reccomended only for non C sagats) use it. If it is a Lvl 2 do a HP TU always. ALWAYS. Train blanka to know that HE's not going to jump on you. EVER. Low jumps sagats can get in IF he doesn't have charge (always watch outfor this). C-Sagat DONT ever jump to him. HIS cr.HP ("The system or El Sistema here in Santo Domingo :p') is gonna own your jumps ALWAYS. You can neutral jump UP, and your HK can beat it clean this way (TO cr. MK/HP xx Super if youre close), but unless is a safe jump or you know your opponent is gonna use cr.HP, i dont recommend it that much.

The main thing to look in this battle is the ground game. St. LK him A LOT (but try to always hit or force him to block it) because it wins over his cr. HP AND slide. Now, WHENEVER you are into cr.HP range USE IT and buffer a Lvl2/3 (DONT WHIFF IT. EVER). If it counter hits (it beats all his pokes CLEAN) punish with super. Now, when you have Blanka in this state, letting him know that he's not going nowhere (Expcept the corner, where you can pressure w/ st.lp, cr,HP) and he's going to be GC, he's gonna take some risk.

A Blanka mainly depends on his CC, so he's gonna bait you. If he jumps, anti air w. Neutral jumping HP, or back jumping HK. NEVER do a DP/Super unless yu see him atack miles away. Dont' EVER NEVER let blanka hop/dash into you.
st.Lk or cr.Hp him outta the air. If he gets in, he will do a POWERFUL mixup of RC ELEC, Throw, Low lk (into combo) or CC. Dont let him.

C Blanka is even more easy. He will try to Roll/hop/jump/dash when you put pressure on him. Dont let him get away w/ bullshits and punish. ALWAYS punish blocked balls w Lvl 2/3 into High HP tiger shot.

Also, some blankas like to do st.MP to counter your st.lk. Cr. HP them and super. ALWAYS PUNISH LIKE A MADMAN. That's the key to winning this match and the reason to C-Sagat power over EVERYONE.




Random Note: Cr. MP is a GREAT meter builder. Whenever you can USE IT. C-Sagat + Lvl2 is one of the most SCARY things in this game.

Next: A-Sakura.

[noodleman]

notes for match ups:

A-claw has one more extremely useful tool vs Sagat....st.mp. Sagat can't duck under it and has better recovery speed and iirc, MORE range than cr.mp. Best of all, st.mp is safe 90% of the time from sagat's roll.

vs cammy, she cannot regular jump over a low lk tiger on reaction. You'll recover in time to Tiger uppercut. she also can't drill past it (unless it's RC'ed of course).

vs bison, jump back fp is a decent AA, and stops headstomp/devil's reverse cold. dashing back also works for those situations.

Buk mentioned in another thread that if the guard bar is flashing, st.fp xx mp dp will crush their guard 99% of the time. i've tried before and it fails it's very close to the "flashing threshold".

[laugh]

kcxj
What you suggested doing after blocking Vega ball doesn't even work. You think it's just gonna give you an option select cr.short XX super (only if hit) type of thing, but it ain't like that. Cr.short animation ends way too fast for this to work and you're almost definitely gonna get a whiffed short, then super if Vega doesn't do anything after the ball or jump at you. Also, it's nice that you're writing down the start-up frame data for sagat's tiger uppercut and all, but again, tiger uppercut after blocking Vega ball is just a guess DP in written with fancy numbers. This loses to block, back dash, straight jump, RC jab ball by Vega.

Simply, your thing only works once against a shitty Vega player that ALWAYS does c.mk after a blocked ball. I tried not to post about other's posts, but you can't pass tactics that doesn't work as legit.

Here's a good strat against Vega with Sagat. Don't jump. Throw fast fireballs you can't jump out of with reaction. Make him jump. Be ready to DP that shit. Work the guard bar with the tip of his low fierce.

[Nick T.]

If they're crouching, kick them.

If they're standing, punch them alot.

If you anticipate jump, use st. RH rarely, but not never.

:wonder:

Vs. Blanka:
Get up in that bitches grill with 50/50 jabs and throws. Work that mofo to the corner.

Vs Vega:
Anticipate some limbs and TU on reaction, get in on him.
I wouldn't even bother to do much else.

Vs A Sak:
Keep the bitch guessing for when you'll throw a limb out.(I actually don't like playing this match with either character)

[gridman]

Take risks vs a vega if he has no meter. Risk reward is highly in your favor. St.lk stuffs a lot of his pokes (all?) c.fierce is good (ovbiously). Pyschic uppercuts work well (vega is figedty)but dont get too ovbious. Anti air EVERY THING. Dont let him sit all the way across the screen and build meter for bison. You can take many EDCUATED risks against him (when he has no meter) because you have so much more health and deal so much damage per hit to him. Dont be afraid to use a meter to chip him. Any chance you get to land a super, DO IT

[geadom]

Vs. Blanka:
Get up in that bitches grill with 50/50 jabs and throws. Work that mofo to the corner.


This is pretty useful too, but be aware from mashy blanka players that may Super or CC you between jabs. Try to 'read' if he's gonna do something like that and let him waste his meter (mainly A) and if he's C and does Direct Lightning, block then punish w/Lvl2 - 3 High Tiger shot.


Vs A-Sak. (with C sagat MAINLY)

Ok, the main thing in this fight is NOT to whiff cr. HP ever. 'Cause Sak st.HK is gonna kick you EVERY DAMM TIME. So only use it when is gonna be blocked (and as always, BUFFER the damm thing). The main poke i use here is st.MK. Long range that can compete against the fast st.HK. Cr.MK and cr. HK are useful too.

The main thing sakura looks for Sagat's is a mistake, so DONT JUMP ON HER (unless you knock her down) and DONT ROLL RANDOMLY. The key to this match is PATIENCE. Neutral jump UP HK is very good, it kicks her in the face, and whenever the hell happens, against a meterless Sakura ALWAYS ANTIAIR (w/Lvl 2 if it is available). No bulshit rolls too, but if she has meter, antiait w/Jumping neutral HP, jump back HK. If she rolls outside your range (throw/pokes to hitconfirm super) BLOCK. ALWAYS. 'Cos is a common custom setup. Same w/Dive kicks.

Now, Sak may try her QCB HK, wich sagat cannot duck, so try to stay at an optimal range to DP her outside her second kick (wich is NOT ANYMORE invincible) or JUMP HK neutral.Also, you can roll and in some cases punish from behind. If you land SOMETHING, hitconfirm into super and KILL HER. If you have 3 lvls, do a Lvl 2 Raid/Tiger shot and an lvl1 Tiger shot. Dont EVER HESITATE TO KILL SAKURA. EVER.

Her other RC's (mainly QCFHP) are a little more laggy, so if you see them, just punish their recovery. Her Hadou is easily rollable / jumpable, and she's not goin to use her RC LP DP if you dont jump (wich is air blockable, BTW).

Now if she gets in, FORGET ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. Block. A LOT. She can mess you up BADLY if you try someting desperate. If she activates and you block, DONT ALPHA COUNTER UNLESS SHE's DP'ING. Wait for the overhead (and block, btw.) Then block and ALPHA COUNTER THE SHOSHO. Nothing else.

I also HIGHLY recommend learning to do cr.lk 2 xx Super against her (and a lots o' small characters)

Overall:

St.MK, Cr.MK, Cr.HK(knocks her down), Neutral jumping HK.
cr. HP is good only if you can guarantee that it's gonna hit.
Never jump on any GOOD standig Sakura.
Dont randomly roll.
Be AWARE of QCB HK so you can always punish that biatch.
Her other RC's sucks if you cn bait and punish them.
St. MK against her st.HK.
Dont let her jumpin. BE careful of common CC's activations.
And most importantly: KILL HER IN THE FIRST CHANCE YOU'VE GOT. Seriously.
Dont think in storing meter or whatever. Kill HER.

Next: I donno :confused:



Is anyone finding my advice any good?

[gridman]

Your advice is pretty much what I follow by whenever I play C sagat

K Sagat vs Sak seems a completely different fight since your able to jump in (st.fierce is JD safe i believe but c.fierce def isnt, I know you can come down with j.hk xx TU). You have to kill her as fast as possible and before she gets meter. Pretty much, rush her down, dont let her get meter, dont take too many risks. Who cares if you get hit by her BnB cause then your raged and can deal 5x the amount of damage.

Jump straight up and down with sagat is a great strategy cause of his jumpin angle on j.hk (like yamazaki, but thats a different thread) and works on a lot of characters.

[POscrub]

laugh:
For the tiger uppercuts thing. He said after JDing a Vega ball. Not blocking it normally. I'm guessing he tested and found that the window to hit back Claw vega after a JD'd ball isn't very big. i.e. it's easy to mistime the cr. short and get it blocked. Just crunching the numbers, 20-24 = likely -4. I haven't played the game in a while, don't intend to, but it sounds roughly consistent with what kcxj is describing.

Trying to get an auto cancel super off cr. short would be pretty hard though. Definitely in the realm of theoretical counters. Think it could be possible with cr. MK though (or at the very least, a lot easier), but eh. Would be cool if you could actually pull it off though. Best to keep the auto cancelling stuff for medium and heavy attacks, else like you said, cr. short "link uncombo" super.

cr/st. strong on JD would be punishable if done in range (likely -8, -10 respectively). But if he's outta range, tough. Vega's lights are all fine on JD, cr. MK is fairly unpunishable on JD. But eh, if JD could kill Vega, everyone would've noticed by now.

Anyways, I haven't played this game in a while, besides training mode stuff. So if you've got any ingame experience that contradicts the above, be sure to respond.

[50mOrEcEnTz]

for weak biches (including claw vega), i like trying to trade with their pokes! if vega whores his pokes, get into max range for him but just a HAIR out of it, and when u think he mashes c.mp, mash ur c.fp, too many of these and you get doom of dizzy !

i think trading is very secksi for sagat =) just have to watch out and not eat an entire rc by some1

[kimjongiLL]

kcxj
What you suggested doing after blocking Vega ball doesn't even work. You think it's just gonna give you an option select cr.short XX super (only if hit) type of thing, but it ain't like that. Cr.short animation ends way too fast for this to work and you're almost definitely gonna get a whiffed short, then super if Vega doesn't do anything after the ball or jump at you.
Sup bro, you're right about the d.LK animation ending too fast. I'll make sure to fix that before putting it in the wiki.

I didn't say to use a guess DP after blocking the Vega ball. Was my wording confusing? I meant to talk about punishing a Just Defended Vega ball with the easy to guaranteee, reversal Tiger Uppercut... since I think Vega is at -4 after you JD his ball, so timing a normal low short is difficult.

Before I knew about frame data and studied and tested with my friends, I was losing to Vega because I kept trying to hit crouching fierce after blocking a Vega ball. It made Vega's d.MP and d.MK seem like they have Godly priority (which I know now they don't). Then I started randomly rolling after blocking the Vega ball (since you can roll through Vega d.MP's and punish), but I decided that's not the most solid idea either.

The best thing now I think is to...

-enter JD input, then hit crouching fierce to punish for free if Vega decided to stick out his low strong

-stick out Sagat d.MK in anticipation, buffered into super input.

All the while, always looking for a Vega jump-in or jump straight up you can DP or super for some free damage.*

*When Vega doesn't have full CC of course.

[kimjongiLL]

Is anyone finding my advice any good?
Thanks for all the input, geadom. You rock. :tup:

I do some the same things you do when I have C-Sagat against Sakura.

Differences:
-My main poke is s.LK.
Sakura's roll is too fast to be throwing out poking s.MK's, and the Low Tiger Shot controls more space than the s.MK does. If I throw out either of those moves, I'm doing something purposely to make Sakura want to jump in or roll at me.

That's why I think Low Tiger Shot is good.

It does the same job as a poking s.MK. s.MK is more for whiff punishing, but other than sweep (which Sagat can whiff punish with walk up d.MK xx super), I don't know what other moves Sakura can whiff and leave her vulnerable. Her far s.HK recovers way too fast.

-I jump at Sakura all the time.
But I only use a cross-up j.LK as she gets up, a "safe jump" j.HK, or a max range jumping HK. Sagat's foot has an invincible hitbox on his j.LK, and Sakura has a natural anti-air weakness at this particular angle. The only counter she has is to use a roll canceled dp+LP, but that's a high execution skill move to use, so it can be difficult for her.

-Don't block so much.
If you do, she's going to keep doing Hurricane kick traps and random dive kicks you can't react to to make your guard bar flash. Instead, walk forward a lot. When you're on the defensive, bust out a random Level 2 Hotfoot super or random DP in between her counter hit and lockdown attempts. She'll think you're crazy, but that's exactly what you want, since she'll start thinking twice and becoming more submissive... which is good because you can crush Sakura's guard easier then.

============

Other stuff:
-If you want to stop Sakura far s.HK spam, then start walking forward and spamming on your crouching fierce. The first time you cleanly counter hit Sakura trying to stick out a far s.HK with your fierce, she'll be discouraged and start going for impatient tactics like random roll in, jump-in Dive Kick, RC Hurricane Kick (which you roll through on reaction and donkey punch her with far s.HP xx super).

-Sakura's most dangerous move to get in on you is her super jump HK. That move is HARD to dp. If you block it, it becomes a pain too, since Sakura can start her walk up stand abuse and counter hit/throw game on you. Don't let Sakura get that easy super jump HK in. Make her work for her damage, and uppercut the shit out of her whenever she tries to easy mode it.

-The counter to Sakura whiffing kara-Dive Kicks to build meter is to walk up and punch her out of the air with your far s.HP. Sagat's far s.HP owns. Invincible fist, crazy range, big damage, and that satisfying smack sound.

-If Sakura whiffs RC fireball, punch her arms with your d.HP.

[geadom]

The pokes:

St.Lp

a 2 frame atack, that leaves you at +6 advantage on block. Also, IMPRACTICALLY unpunishable on whiff. You MAIN move when in close and you opponent cannot duck it.

Learn all the combos that involve this move, 'cos is one of the best normals in Sagat arsenal.


Cr.Lk

The main move to use whenever you opponen can crouch st.Lp. It hits at 3 frames, and puts you in a +5 frame advantage. If you hit in counter hit (or alone) link another one into super. W/out counter is a lil' bit hard, but is VERY USEFUL for small characters.
If you are new to Sagat, learn to do cr.lk >>st.lp (against standing char's, and to those who cannot duck st.lp.) into super/another cr.lk/cr.mk.


St.Lk

The RIGHT use of this move will let you NET tons o'matches that otherwise are pretty difficult. IMO, the best single poke in the ENTIRE game, it has two main uses.

The first one is his speed/range/PRIORITY/RECOVERY. Your enemies will SUFFER in anger and pain as this poke stops almost EVERYTHING cold from them. Also, is VERY hard to punish if whiffed, and even that it lets you at -1, it pushes your enemy TOO far for them to do something about it(when you hit ot force them to block). After a st.lk, try to do a cr.HP (buffered into a Lvl2, as ALWAYS) and watch the counter hits FLY BABE!

The second (and often OVERLOOKED) and MOST USEFUL use, is to FORCE mistakes from your opponent. Yes, it may look simple here written, but i cannont COUNT the times when i have won matches throwing a st.lk and WATCHING the opponent reaction. They jump >> Tiger uppercut or lvl 2 shot. They roll...do the math :D. They JD, and try to punish with a somewhat laggy poke (Cammy st.HK, Sagat st.HP) you roll and kiss them :P. HELL, even throwing it and buffering a lvl2 and activating upon reaction is good.

So learn to use this move. Because is KEY to tons o' stuff.

cr.HP

AHHH, the poke that makes the earth shake, the skies open and the sea...wave. The infamous cr.HP (The 'firehose' or 'La manguera' here in Santo Domingo :p). Yes, is that good, but no, is not that abuseable as ppl think.

As a poke, going from frame data (it hits on 7 frames) is not that awesome. but the properties of the move are crapstantally good.

First it haves TONS of active frames. By active i mean hitting frames. So it works well as a meaty. Second, his tip is INVINCIBLE. So youre gonna upset TONS o' people with it. 3rd, his recovery is very GOOD (for a Heavy normal) and is DECEPTIVE. 4th, does a good amount of guard crush (st.lp x2 to cr.HP is very good). And lastly, but not worse, is SUPER CANCELLABLE.

By his properties you can see that with so many COOL uses, you should do it like, 3/4 of the match, right? RIGHT? Wrong. The first thing is that IT DOES HAVE RECOVERY that can be (severely) punished. So try to ALWAYYYYYYYS connect with it. The main thing to look for using this move is to MAKE IT Connect. After a st. lp x2 (counter hit/guard crush secuence). After a laggy poke from you opponent ( to punish) and sometimes, it even works as an late antiair (against cammy mostly). So, if you combine this move attributes you should by now deciphered that this moves ALWAYS SHOULD BE BUFFERED INTO SUPER. ALWAYS. (Maybe not when used as meaty, so you can do a GC secuence). This is the key to Sagat power, to PUNISH AND RAPE ALWAYS. That's why C-Sagat >*.


Cr.MK

If going by the numbers this move (hitting at 4 frames, the fastest of his kind) is pretty good. Also, hits LOW, is super cancellable, is linkable (2 frames link) from st.lp (a very good hitconfirn into super) and also has TONS o'reach.
His main uses (besides combos) is to whiff punish things that your cr.HP wont reach in time (and sending a big ole lvl2 fireball after it). For example, if K-Sagat JD Blanka cr.HP, most of the time, he will be able to block if you retaliate w/cr.HP. cr.MK, however.. reachs. In time. For a redrock drink.

So as always, learn to combo into it, and to whiff punish too.

Random note: This move is unsafe against K-groovers with 4 frames mk's. So use st.LK a lot more.

st.MK

a VERY LAGGY move (it leaves you AT -9 on hit AND BLOCK WTF!), an easy rollable too. Is only supercancellable in his first hit (wich you SHOULDN"T be doing close, and his properties are nothing special.However is Sagat LONGEST poke, reaching (almost?) midscreen. His main uses are (SMARTLY USED) to reach characters from long range or FAST moves hard to punish. Cases are to poke RANDOMLY to hibiki, Against sak st.HK (when it whiffs ONLY) and to punish another sagat's cr.HP if you re bit to far. Dont use it too much and always try to do Low tiger shots mixed with this when you NEED to use it.


Tomorrow more.. i have sleep ...

[Ouroborus]

i use standing lk into super against random rolls

and you are mentioning wayyy too much on frame data. who cares if c. fierce comes out in 7 frames, that move is still buff as hell.

i dont think its wise to jump on sakura all the time, even with the "safe" jump hk or with the tip. she can just anti air rc anything (from easiest to hardest.....hk hurricane kick, spark, lp dp) and even if it wont hit sagat most of the time, he still has to block it which puts you in a situation under her control.

[Mihai]

It's not a good idea to jump in on anyone, especially when your name is Sagat and you have top3 ground games in the game. And fuck frame data.

[Buktooth]

sagat jumping in wins matches. you just gotta read the opponent right. watch any choi video

[geadom]

i use standing lk into super against random rolls

and you are mentioning wayyy too much on frame data. who cares if c. fierce comes out in 7 frames, that move is still buff as hell.

i dont think its wise to jump on sakura all the time, even with the "safe" jump hk or with the tip. she can just anti air rc anything (from easiest to hardest.....hk hurricane kick, spark, lp dp) and even if it wont hit sagat most of the time, he still has to block it which puts you in a situation under her control.

I do mention frame data to please (semi)Technical players, and the properties of the moves for nonso technical. Everyone, if you see it from my POV.

Also, i AGREE on your Sakura comments. Lots of non r2 Sakuras (against R2 Sagats) will USE the meter in an antiair CC, just to fuck you around, and the options that you point out (for her) are pretty accurate too.


BTW, i donno what to cover now :looney: Later i will edit the pokes post with more info.

[Mihai]

sagat jumping in wins matches. you just gotta read the opponent right. watch any choi video

You can say that for anything. Roll, super wins matches. Random CC wins matches. It's not like I think jumping in is a terrible thing to do in moderation, but all good players know their anti-airs REALLY well, and jumping in almost never does anything better than what the ground game would do. Finally, I don't think the top-tier, or pretty much any player opens themselves up to a free jumpin in CVS2. If anything, straight jump up punishes stuff like Sak RC hurricane, Iori RC Rekka, Vega RC roll, etc.

[Buktooth]

reading a blanka fierce or slide coming and jumping in anticipation is often the key to the match. think about it, generally the worst that will happen to you is a low fierce AA if blanka is distanced right. maybe he'll activate CC and and slap you a few times (then lose meter)

if you read it correctly? you get full jump in combo into super into you won the round. this is how like half of sagat's matches with the top tiers go. if you get AAed like 6 times, then land the jump in, you still come out ahead on damage

of course, i'm not saying spam jump ins all over the place either, i'm saying "don't jump" isn't good strategy

one thing i notice about players these days is that they try to play without getting hit. the only thing that matters in the end is that you do more damage to your opponent than he did to you. there is such a thing as playing too cautiously

[Mihai]

Man, I get what you're saying, and I'm not a clean player by any means. I have the same philosophy, I don't give a fuck if I get hit by shit, or if I trade, as long as I win. And in CVS2, it's even worse. I don't care about winning the round, I just want to do enough damage so I'm still in the game, and can come back in one combo. So yeah, not trying to sound rude, but def don't need the lesson, I think people like kcjx need to accept the fact that high level SF is fuckin dirty.

Anywaaaay...as for what you're saying about jumpin combos. I still don't think it happens almost at all. Like, think about it, if Sagat knows that he can land his damage like that, then so does the other guy if he's good. Yeah, he may try to bait out that jumpin so he anti-airs Sagat like u said 6 times in a row let's say, and then maybe he'll get sick of waiting, and slide and eat the big combo, but I don't think that's how it works really. I think the more times u get hit by random shit while going for something risky, the more broken you become, and more often than not, the more mistakes you'll make, and you'll straight up lose...possibly badly. I grew up with the mentality that jumping gets you killed, and I believed in this for a long time and still do. I think newer SF games let you jump more, but I still believe 100% that jumping in gets you killed almost all the time.

[gridman]

Jump in moderation. Sagat has (arguably) the best ground game and (again arguably) the best ground pokes. He doesnt really need to jump that much. His roll is fast for being such a powerhouse. Far jumpin hk can be hard to deep TU or anti air cleanly.

[kimjongiLL]

Second probably only to full meter A-Bison, C-Sagat has the best jump-in (as well as roll) in the game. It's one of his greatest strengths, so it makes sense to use it.

That jump HK has horizontal crazy range, and the hit box even reaches above him in case you need to air-to-air as well.

Jump over one fireball, even from max range ---> free far s.HP xx super ---> hella damage.

Jump from max range on Blanka ---> Blanka CAN'T use d.HP to anti-air you. He gets counter hit every time and you can do a free super combo on him. The only direct counters Blanka can use are to jump up HP or RC ball, but the way you do the jump HK, you can airblock both of those every time. If he tries a tripguard slide, then he's dead if you decided not to attack in the air (free d.MK xx super). He's forced to either let you in or use his b+KK hop.

Flexibilty. Adaptibilty. The trademark of all successful warriors. It's the reason Tae Kwon Do is useless in mixed martial arts. Yeah, it's traditional, and I was brought up to believe that kicking is the strongest weapon and to do chambered punches from my hip, but if I try that against a Judoka, wrestler, or kickboxer, I'm going to get my ass kicked.

Don't be so stubborn, critical, and judgemental of others. If it works, just friggin do it. Jump already.
BTW, i donno what to cover now :looney: Later i will edit the pokes post with more info.
Don't sweat it, man. You've done plenty already (like three times the amount of effort I've put in).

We can talk about more top tier matchups next week. I want to discuss A-Bison some more, because even though Sagat supposedly has an advantage over him, according to what my friends tell me and what I read from Desora's tier chart, A-Bison is still one of my most difficult and frustrating matchups.

[Mihai]

Show me some videos of a good C-Sagat like Choi's jumping more than minimally. Jumping does essentially nothing because your opponent will know if he can't anti-air a max range j. rh, so he'll BLOCK. And then you have nothing cause you'll be too far away to follow up. Jumping is good if you have low jump, or if you have a good jumpin that leads to something ambiguous or gets you in somehow. Just jumping in with rh cause you can does nothing.

[Onikage]

I want to discuss A-Bison some more, because even though Sagat supposedly has an advantage over him, according to what my friends tell me and what I read from Desora's tier chart, A-Bison is still one of my most difficult and frustrating matchups.

Funny, cuz K-Sagat is probably my most difficult and frustrating matchup for bison. My roommate put Sagat at the end of his team recently and I've been getting killed.

[Mihai]

I think a GOOD example of brute force jumping is Dud vs Chun in 3S. That's where you can take a few hits but eventually come out on top cause Dudley has retarded combos off a jumpin. I was thinking about this whole issue more, and I actually have to agree to disagree with certain tactics, cause in the end, it's winning that matters, so if someone has a style or a tactic or whatever that to you is really ugly and sloppy, but it gets the job done, anything else cept the win is irrelevant. If we were talking theoretically, then yeah, a few tactics are statistically proven to be superior, but SF has never been about paper tactics, although it can be discussed in great depth which makes it such a great game to play...you can talk about it with friends at movies, going out to eat, etc and it's really cool like that. Fuck, I digress. Long live SF and long live doing whatever it takes to win.

[Hail And Kill]

reading a blanka fierce or slide coming and jumping in anticipation is often the key to the match. think about it, generally the worst that will happen to you is a low fierce AA if blanka is distanced right. maybe he'll activate CC and and slap you a few times (then lose meter)

if you read it correctly? you get full jump in combo into super into you won the round. this is how like half of sagat's matches with the top tiers go. if you get AAed like 6 times, then land the jump in, you still come out ahead on damage

of course, i'm not saying spam jump ins all over the place either, i'm saying "don't jump" isn't good strategy

one thing i notice about players these days is that they try to play without getting hit. the only thing that matters in the end is that you do more damage to your opponent than he did to you. there is such a thing as playing too cautiously

not vs me nigga

[Nick T.]

reading a blanka fierce or slide coming and jumping in anticipation is often the key to the match. think about it, generally the worst that will happen to you is a low fierce AA if blanka is distanced right. maybe he'll activate CC and and slap you a few times (then lose meter)



wtf?

why would they randomly activate like that?

:(

[Ouroborus]

pretty obvious but i find k sagat having a harder time than C sagat vs A bison

[kimjongiLL]

wtf?

why would they randomly activate like that?

:(
When someone jumps at your Blanka...

Jump straight up, activate, then mash fierce a bunch of times.

You can get like six fierces in and it does like 4000 damage. When the C-groove guy's back is to the corner and he airblocks, you get a free tripguard CC with Blanka when you land.

Guys, do me a favor and stay on topic from now on. It makes the thread difficult to read and extract the useful information when there are side conversations or unrelated arguments going on.

[Nick T.]

When someone jumps at your Blanka...

Jump straight up, activate, then mash fierce a bunch of times.

You can get like six fierces in and it does like 4000 damage. When the C-groove guy's back is to the corner and he airblocks, you get a free tripguard CC with Blanka when you land.

Guys, do me a favor and stay on topic from now on. It makes the thread difficult to read and extract the useful information when there are side conversations or unrelated arguments going on.

I know that

But i wouldn't even bother with that vs Sagat

Especially C. No guarantee

Also, Sagat wouldn't be in the corner in that match. AT ALL.

[wepeel]

not vs me nigga

Hehe actually that was how I killed you that one time...(yes ok only one time)
Knowing when to jump is a great "skill" to learn

[geadom]

C-Sagat Vs A-Bison:

Another 'difficult' battle, only if you dont know wtf to do in the right situations.

The first thing you should/want to learn is neutral jumping HP. It stops EVERY JUMPING (when timed right) from Bison COLD. Also is pretty good against a full bar Bison. Back jumping HK, Deep TU (VERY deep, so if he crosses you up, Sagat autoturns back) and in some cases, Lvl 2 shot (a very visible front jump, after blocking his devil's whatever kick attack, and a bad done devil reverse) also work, in the right situations. Backdash against his devilish air stuff is cool too, but it puts you FAST in the corner.

Ok, after (AGAIN) you teach that sonofabitch that he's not going to jump, or screw around, is time for some beating. When he doesn't have meter, he WILL try to get it. Dont jump (other than a crossup lk) on front of him, his cr.HP is going to stop you from the right angle. Max range j.HK are realtively safe, but i dont reccomend them, because he can do RC Psycho Crusher, often getting him OUTTA the corner (where we want him).

Well, poke at him w. st.LK as always, and WALK FORWARD A LOT in this match. The secret of this match is to watch out WHEN he's charged or not for his scissors. When he's charged, poke carefully (st.lk, cr.HP NON WHIFFED,st.MK sometimes) and WALK, until you are in range to his 2 hit version of Scissors. If he does them, block (walk/poke and block alot, if your reflexes sucks, like mine sometimes :P), and PUNISH with st.lp (wich THANKS to god, he cannot duck) to SUPER if you have it.

If he's not charged, poke a lot with st.lk/NONwhiffed cr.HP, etc so you can take him to the corner. DO NOT EVERNEVER let him escape with bullshit stuff like the air devil's, rolls, jumps,and most important: Try to not to jump, to prevent RC PC. Now when he's there, is simple: work to crush his guard and to Lvl2 >> whatever him after. If you get to close, i reccomend st.lp x2, cr.hp, or throw sometimes. WATCH out for RC scissors, and punish them,as always. Watch him when he has charge.


FULL A-Bison: Tomorrow.. I need to sleep..:D

[kimjongiLL]

K-Sagat vs A-Bison

Dealing with stomps:

When Bison tries to headstomp from midrange, Sagat can dash back on reaction, free close s.HP xx combo.

-If Bison tried the glow hand and whiffs, Sagat gets free tripguard far s.HP xx super.
-If Bison tries to hit you with the glow hand from the front, Sagat gets a free Tiger Uppercut.
-If Bison RC's the stomp at point blank range, you can JD, then hit him with a High Tiger Cannon super when he tries to fly away.
-If you JD the glow hand, free combo.

Don't bother using j.HP against any of the stomp moves. It's not necessary, and if you guess wrong, you eat a glow hand.

You can't throw any of the RC stomp moves, so don't bother.

-----------

If you JD the one hit Scissors, you get a free Tiger Uppercut (use the MP version for the most damage).

Sagat has a four frame d.MK. Any blocked two hit Scissors are easily punishable with that.

If Bison really messed up and did an accidental blocked two hit Scissors right in your face, you get free s.LP, s.LP xx Tiger Uppercut.

Punish whiffed Scissors with far s.HP xx super.

-----------

Ground game:

Sagat's d.HP is a dominant move to use against Bison.

----------

Anti-air:

Bison can jump in at one specific angle that makes it impossible for Sagat to Tiger Uppercut or super him. If Sagat tries to use jump back HP, Bison can stick out jumping short to beat Sagat as well.

It's necessary to learn how to "cross-up DP" since whenever you have Bison cornered and controlled on the ground with your Sagat d.HP, he'll try to jump over your head to escape the corner.

Bison's corner escapes:
-RC crusher
-RC stomp, neutral stick fly away trick
-teleport (extremely rare since he needs to let go of block)
-jump over your head (extremely common, so cross-up DP him for it)

----------

What's the best way to deal with walk up, random activate?

[misterbean97]

What's the best way to deal with walk up, random activate?

best option is to just block and take the throw/chip. can't jump away since bison can catch you with jumping strong...unless you can JD that...

[ohayo1234]

nah, I think everyone should be sliding with blanka. If you not sliding atleast once every 10 seconds, YOU AINT REAL.

[MakA]

reading a blanka fierce or slide coming and jumping in anticipation is often the key to the match. think about it, generally the worst that will happen to you is a low fierce AA if blanka is distanced right. maybe he'll activate CC and and slap you a few times (then lose meter)

if you read it correctly? you get full jump in combo into super into you won the round. this is how like half of sagat's matches with the top tiers go. if you get AAed like 6 times, then land the jump in, you still come out ahead on damage

of course, i'm not saying spam jump ins all over the place either, i'm saying "don't jump" isn't good strategy

one thing i notice about players these days is that they try to play without getting hit. the only thing that matters in the end is that you do more damage to your opponent than he did to you. there is such a thing as playing too cautiously

not vs me nigga

I think buk is trying to say that its better to read your opponent before deciding to not jump in........ its the mix up game seperates the great from the champions

and to be a champion you have to make a scrub jump in or scrub activate once in a blue moon and take the offense to the opponent.... espically when you have A-bison/blanka ( I hate those characters)

[Dummie]

Let me smoke some herb first!... and play me K-GAT...shooting fools. :qcf: :hp:

[tetsuye00]

Hey, do almost all of Sagat's normals combo into specials/supers? I know:

s. jab, cr. jab, s. strong, cr. strong, cl. fierce, cr.fierce s. short, cr. short, cl. forward (1-hit cancel), cr. forward

s.roundhouse (1-hit cancel) thanks CMX

I think that is all. Do some of those have special circumstances, or only cancel into supers and not specials (or vice-versa)?

[CMX]

Hey, do almost all of Sagat's normals combo into specials/supers? I know:

s. jab, cr. jab, s. strong, cr. strong, cl. fierce, cr.fierce s. short, cr. short, cl. forward (1-hit cancel), cr. forward

I think that is all. Do some of those have special circumstances, or only cancel into supers and not specials (or vice-versa)?

add s.rh 1 hit cancel to that list as well

[tetsuye00]

haha, the gameguide says that cr. rh cancels into supers. I wonder if anyone ever uses that. I assume you have to do it into ground tiger cannon or tiger genocide.

[D@RU]

Are there any character that can crouch under close standing fierce?
I like to do cr short, close fierce into tiger cannon (not super) for guard crush purpose. So if nobody can crouch this, then i wouldn't have to bother about whiffing LP on small crouching characters^^ (useful for throws mixups anyways).

I don't know if there is a gap beetween fierce and tiger, but it seems harder to roll than cr MK, Tiger cannon.

[Mihai]

just do c. short, short, s. strong xx rh tiger

[Dentron]

C-Sagat Vs K-Cammy (lil' bitch )

St. Lk is the poke to use in this fight. The most important thing in this fight is NOT LETTING CAMMT JUMP IN /GET IN on you. St. LK her ass and watch how she reacts. If she JD's and tneh pokes, ROLL and punish HARD. If he trades St. Lk w/ her st.HP use your ST HP XX lvl 2/3 Tiger cannon. Also use SMART low tiger shots, against her drills/pokes (RC'ed if you like). DONT EVER JUMP on Cammy. JUMP UP (neutral jump up) and use you HK is VERY good. There you can bait a drill (PUNISH HARD) or poke (which you j.HK should kick). If she uses St. HK Roll it and Punish.


im a little confused here. most of cammy's normals recover too fast to roll through and punish except MAYBE s.rh (which still recovers pretty fast) unless u roll before they even push the button. Ive never seen this tactic used vs cammy.

i also dont understand the whole "If he trades St. Lk w/ her st.HP use your ST HP XX lvl 2/3 Tiger cannon." thing. if you trade with cammy's s.hp, SHE gets a free super, not sagat. I guess its possible to punish cammy's s.hp with sagats but that implys that youre baiting her s.hp and not trading with it.

[iKlEiTlH]

the only person making any sense here is warren.

jesus.

[kimjongiLL]

im a little confused here. most of cammy's normals recover too fast to roll through and punish except MAYBE s.rh (which still recovers pretty fast) unless u roll before they even push the button. Ive never seen this tactic used vs cammy.

i also dont understand the whole "If he trades St. Lk w/ her st.HP use your ST HP XX lvl 2/3 Tiger cannon." thing. if you trade with cammy's s.hp, SHE gets a free super, not sagat. I guess its possible to punish cammy's s.hp with sagats but that implys that youre baiting her s.hp and not trading with it.
Yeah, the rolling through Cammy far s.HK thing doesn't work unless Sagat guess rolls or guess jumps, which IS worth doing since it's easy to get caught off guard by Sagat's fast roll and his powerful jump though.

I know if I was Cammy, I wouldn't be so liberal in throwing out the far s.HK's after I realize the Sagat player is crazy and I've been caught by Sagat doing random roll xx super.

Cammy can't far s.HK Sagat if he keeps her out with Low Shots and far s.LK... incidently which is why K-Cammy is the best Cammy because she has easier job of neutralizing the Low Shots with walk up JD.

Sagat can walk up and punch cammy with far s.HP xx super after she whiffs a far s.HK though. Sagat player needs quick reactions and accurate distance judgment.

K-Sagat can JD the Cammy roundhouse and punch her for free.

---------

Anybody want to start wikifying all this information? I still don't have time to sort through everything and write a big strategy thingie at the moment.

[mukai]

so kang does this mean you're coming back and playing again

[geadom]

So, are we going to let this thread die? Sagat, IMO is the MOST FUN toptier character to play, because at high levels, you need a VERY GOOD understanding of the game mechanics and pokes.

C-Sagat vs K-Hibiki

st.LK is your friend when near. Seriously :P
st.MK is good at higher ranges, but whenever is JD, hibiki can punish it.

Jumping at Hibiki is a very crappy situation. st./cr.HP beats all of your jumpins clean. What's worse, her st./cr.mp, cr.lp pokes, and low jumps mp, are gonna make you fell in HELL. Really. cr.HP is good too, but if you anticipate it and roll, she's gonna die. Also, some times when using it as an antiairs, at some ranges, sagat j.HK wins clean (WTF! :P) and is also byebye time.

The real secret of this match, is RC tiger shots. SMARTS USED ONES. Why? Because it stops her pokes COLD, builds meter, and give you SPACE. So, a game mainly based on st.lk/mk sometimes, RC shots (when you suspect a poke) and why not, early jumpins/rolls (to some laggy pokes of her) is the solution to this match. st.HK her far jumpins, beacause when she's on top of you is a very crappy situation, and try to DP/lvl2 her short jumps. Really, a very good skill to learn.

Learn how to combo cr.LK x2 to lvl 2, and like with sakura, KILL HER INMEDIATELY. Really, this bitch is annoying.

Im drunk right now, so ill write some more tomorrow. Im sleepy as hell :D.

[D@RU]

Any good advice for C-Sagat against Chun li?
Help and tips would be greatly appreciated! I can't get out of her pressure strings and so on^^

[azis]

Depends on the Chun-li.

In the middle of the pressure strings, just teach that b*** to never more do that, Tigeruppercut her face in the middle of the string. Just time it correctly.

If it is a N or K Chun, avoid the distance of the Small jump. Sometimes, prepare a good Tiger Uppercut for her, or Tiger Shot super. Keep Buffering and preparing for that all the time.

If it is a normal jump Groove, Deep Tiger uppercut. Even normal TUs are good, because, if it trades, she get knocked down and you are in advantage for mixups. For a perfect TU, Roll trough her cross-up jump then Tiger Uppercut her back, remember that you must be in the right distance, or do a lvl 2 Tiger Shot Super. If you rolled through her jump, you got her, do whatever you want.

Control your space, you are Sagat, man! The monsta! Pull out some standing forwards or standing Fierces to zone her. Maybe some random stuff: a random roll , Tiger Crush, upper fireball and jumping Roundhouse. This because if she want to walk forward and s.strong you, you will scare her. Although she has time to block jump ins, and it is dangerous for you to do that, you got a free guard gauge damage, so, use it, J. RK to c. Fierce and she got half of guard gauge damaged, she will then play safely. For you, its a low risk for a high reward.

Oh yeah, and as you are C, use counters (forward + Strong+Foward kick) to knock her down. That puts you in advantageous positions, so counters are also good.

And put that Sagat in R2 man! What's the deal with Rugal? Cut it off, Sagat lvl 2 super will kill anyone, just charge and land it.

Remember this: you just need to knock her down 2 or 3 times. If you be quick, she will get also stunned.

Try this, then come back and tell me the results.

EDIT: I read now my post, it was not so clear.

Remember one more thing: To counter her pressure string with Tiger uppercut, use piano input. Try to not show your intention. After some well done TUs, she will be scared, then, if you just do the gestures, she will stop the string, and you don´t need to play risky. Yeah, I know... using gestures while playing, just to fake something is dirty. But who cares if you just win?

[D@RU]

Thx i will try that next time^^ It's just i didn't know that matchup at all, when i fought this K chun yesterday :( I have to learn to DP faster then :p

PS: Rugal or Sagat being R2, it just depends of the other team^^ Don't trust the avatar and signature :D

[geadom]

C-Sagat vs C/N Chun-Li:

Learn to DP Chun-li normal jump deeply, so you never trade.
Never whiff cr.HP or st.Hp against a decent chun, because she's gonna kill you.
Learn to combo cr.lk x2 to super, and never jump into her, unless she's knocked up and youre going to crossup. This is because her cr.mp beats all your jumpins ( lose tripguard), and her cr.hk beats your empty jumps.

Now, this is how I play the match:

After you let her know that she's not gonna jump (lvl2 to HP TU, HP TU), poke with st.lk, and PUT ATTENTION on how she reacts. If she jumps, you already know what to do. If she likes to trade with cr.HK, take one risk and roll/jump when you 'feel' she's gonna throw it and kill her. And if she does RC SBK, neutral jump/roll and kick or kill her. AC her SBK traps, cos she can fuck you pretty easily.

Now, put attention on HOW she uses st.mp, because she can kill you in one hit with this move. If she whiffs one, you can punish w/ st.hp to super, but if she hits (and you block) be aware of kikouken after it. You can super tru this, also. Be AWARE that, by whiffing cr.HP she can also punish with st.mp. So, use it only on GC strings or when you know is gonna hit.

When she gets in, BLOCK. A LOT. her cr.lp is a 2 frame attack and if she counterhits you with this, youre going to die. Be careful of countehits setups from her. When you're close to her, cr.lk is the move to use. Any of this on counterhits is a link onto another one and dead chun.

So:
Dont use st.mk ever. If she rolls youre dead.
Be careful with st.HP and (whiffed) cr.HP.
Beware of her SBK traps.
Be careful at jumping too, because one mistake is what decides the match between the two of them.

[azis]

D@RU, don´t forget to feed back.

You´re gonna win, for sure.

Sagat, man, the monsta!

[D@RU]

Yep i will do, but i don't play against this chun li player very often^^
Thanks as well geadom!
Next time i'll take the win :D

[D@RU]

Yo i played against this K chun and P chun again^^
I didn't won against the K chun (ok i won a few times anyways^^), but i felt a lot more comfortable against her^^
Just need to improve reaction times and it will be fine^^ JD + run + throws mixups is hard to deal with^^
I ate some parries super against p one, but she also ate a lot of roll under jump c.mk super^^

Thx for the help, I know how to handle the matchup now^^
Now after every whiffed move there is a Dp waiting :p