A new ST:HD debate - netcode

[Digitalbooty]

Apparently there are 3 options...





1. Increased input delay (time between button press and character response)



2. Slower gameplay (ala DOA4 online)



3. Combo of 1 and 2











I feel 2 is prolly the best option. I DESPISE input delay, so GO!

[polarity]

should probably clarify that each of these only applies in a situation where the connection isnt good enough to have lag-free gameplay...

anyways, how about how GGXXNET does it, where you can set your input delay in frames from 1-6, and then the game will speed up or slow down depending on the connection?

might not be user-friendly enough for the average user, in which case i'd say slower gameplay is probably better...

i dunno, you can deal with input delay when its only a few frames and if its consistent (thats very important), but if youre talking massive. noticeable delay then i'd rather have slowdown

[MESOPOTAMIA]

My vote goes to whatever net code Capcom Fighting Evolution uses. The games are actually playable unlike CvS2 and HF

[LeRaldo]

I disagree, SFII'HF has the best netcode yet, when the game actually works (as in, no "establishing connection"). Input delay is a no-no. I'd rather have the game slow down.

[spudlyff8fan]

You're both cokeheads. DOA4 blows away any online fighting game except KOF Neowave.

And I think Sirlin's story about his playing against Chun Li on Live demonstrated the point pretty well about an input delay.

[goodm0urning]

Slower game speed is fairly easy to acclimate to, and doesn't change the way it feels to play the game anywhere near as drastically as input lag does. I'd go with slower game speed. Slower game speed makes the game feel a little slower (duh), but input lag just makes it feel like shit.

[ShinjiGohan]

slowing the game down is ok, unless its on a frame heavy game where you got to the point when you can feel when you need to press a button for a 1-3 frame link. Slowing it down would completely mess up your timing on that.

[Captain Ryu]

CFE had the absolute best network code from what I've played online. For some reason I had much better connections in that game than in any other besides maybe AE. If the connection was good I couldn't even notice the input delay. Sure in some connections it was noticeable but I was able to play people up and down the east coast with great connections.

Anyway, if they go with the slowdown method I'm sure any 2 people with good connections won't even experience the slowdown. I'd rather have that over input delay anyway. Input delay lets peolpe get away with mad garbage so I'd be happy to see it gone. Anything reactionary goes out the window, half the time it turns into a guessing game.

[ST Vega]

By half the time, you surely mean all the time. Input delay sucks.

[Captain Ryu]

By half the time, you surely mean all the time. Input delay sucks.

Yeah, you're right. I don't even know why I said it like that.

[IbanezNinja]

Input delay is terrible terrible terrible.

[spudlyff8fan]

Slowing it down would completely mess up your timing on that.

Not if you get used to it.

[caliagent#3]

You're both cokeheads. DOA4 blows away any online fighting game except KOF Neowave.

And I think Sirlin's story about his playing against Chun Li on Live demonstrated the point pretty well about an input delay.

Doa4's net code is pretty good, but it IS NOT better than CFJ, MK:A/D, or HF. As far as input delay and the like goes, I have NEVER experienced input lag to the point where it was noticeable in CFJ, while it was still being played on live. The same thing goes for the MK games on live, i like the fact that they won't even let you play if network conditions aren't good enough. The ONLY problem i have with HF is getting the establishing connection screen, other than that I usually don't lag with people i play. The one thing that ST:HD needs is better matchmaking capapbilities. Unlike the other SF games that came out on live before it, HF didn't seperate players by region which gave the illusion of people lagging more often than they really should.

Hierarchy of networking for online games:

1. CFJ and MK:A/D
2. HF
3. DOA4
4. KOF games/ Samurai shodown 5
5. AE and CVS2
.
.
.
unplayable: GGXX#R

With that said i say go for slowdown rather than input delay or if it's at all possible use CFJs netcode.

[spudlyff8fan]

DOA4 blows any of the input delay games away. I mean, the whole "wow, he's jumping at me. I probably should've done a shoryuken a couple seconds ago" thing just doesn't work.

[Ki Shima]

DOA4 blows any of the input delay games away. I mean, the whole "wow, he's jumping at me. I probably should've done a shoryuken a couple seconds ago" thing just doesn't work.

i agree totally

thats one reason i praised doa4's online system, input delay is just fucking annoying at best

[Captain Ryu]

DOA4 blows any of the input delay games away. I mean, the whole "wow, he's jumping at me. I probably should've done a shoryuken a couple seconds ago" thing just doesn't work.

DOA has input delay online. I think the online in doa honestly sucks ass.

Anyway I disagree with some stuff on caliagents list.

as far as lag I would put the games in this order.

1. CFE/KOF2k3 (No noticeable input delay in good connections)
2. A very close 2nd for AE (Same as above but less consistant)
3. 3s/cvs2/HF (they can all be great at times but the other games run better most of the time)
.
.
.
.
.
300000000. Guilty Gear (horrible)


I'm not counting 3d fighters.

I'm also going to post my connection speed to go with my opinion on what works best online. Figured it would help.

Last Result:
Download Speed: 20936 kbps (2617 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 4204 kbps (525.5 KB/sec transfer rate)

I used this test.

http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/

[spudlyff8fan]

I think the online in doa honestly sucks ass.


You think wrong.

[Captain Ryu]

You think wrong.

Whatever you say buddy.

Anyway I think they should include something in the online play that displays the ping and location of the other player. That would help a lot when it comes to finding good connection to play with. That 3 green bar shit isn't cutting it.

[codyk]

Connection speed (kbps) has essentially nothing to do with online games lagging. It's all about latency (ping).

To be fair, sirlin did mention another option for netcode - correcting animation after the fact, the way F.P.S. games do. Although the idea of an opponent going from being on the ground to halfway through a shoryuken sounds a lot more annoying than the teleporting that happens in F.P.S . . .

[Mike C]

Last Result:
Download Speed: 20936 kbps (2617 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 4204 kbps (525.5 KB/sec transfer rate)

I used this test.

http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/

damn, are you on a t1 line or something?

[two2tone]

the game artwork is just horrible...

[Captain Ryu]

damn, are you on a t1 line or something?

Nah I have optimum online cable with optimum boost. My download actually goes up to 30mb but I did that test at prime hours.

[ShinjiGohan]

Not if you get used to it.

Yeah, then you get fucked over if you play offline cause now you're timings are further off.

On top of that, slowing the game down will make a game seem unbearable to watch, much less play.

For an example, watch a pal version of a game running next to a ntsc version of the game. Pal's running 50fps and NTSC running 60fps. I know that I've wanted to shoot myself just watching some pal matches.

[LeRaldo]

On top of that, slowing the game down will make a game seem unbearable to watch, much less play.

Why would you want to watch an online match anyways? And besides, it's only going to slow down noticeably when there's lag.

I've played a lot of DOA4 online, and I used to play SFII'HF online at least 2 hours a day since it's release, until SFAC became backwards compatible. Now that I'm finally able to play Anniversary Collection on my 360, I have to say I believe SFII'HF for the XBLA has the best netcode of the three, when the game actually works (meaning, excluding all the "Establishing Connection" bullshit that happens CONSTANTLY). I'm definitely in favor of slowing the game down during lag, instead of input delay.

[spudlyff8fan]

Yeah, then you get fucked over if you play offline cause now you're timings are further off.

On top of that, slowing the game down will make a game seem unbearable to watch, much less play.

For an example, watch a pal version of a game running next to a ntsc version of the game. Pal's running 50fps and NTSC running 60fps. I know that I've wanted to shoot myself just watching some pal matches.

Then don't play it online.

Though really, if you're actually worried about, then you've never played online.

[ShinjiGohan]

Why would you want to watch an online match anyways? And besides, it's only going to slow down noticeably when there's lag.

I've played a lot of DOA4 online, and I used to play SFII'HF online at least 2 hours a day since it's release, until SFAC became backwards compatible. Now that I'm finally able to play Anniversary Collection on my 360, I have to say I believe SFII'HF for the XBLA has the best netcode of the three, when the game actually works (meaning, excluding all the "Establishing Connection" bullshit that happens CONSTANTLY). I'm definitely in favor of slowing the game down during lag, instead of input delay.
spuffy was saying of having the entire game slow down, even during the parts of no lag.

thats would make it unbearable.

watching online matches? remember the quarters room in HF on the 360?

I've played online a couple times, and it was a nightmare. desyncs, missing even the easiest links

[goodm0urning]

spuffy was saying of having the entire game slow down, even during the parts of no lag.No. He was saying that the game speed would be slow. Have you ever played SFII: World Warrior? The game is entirely playable. It is just as responsive as any other SF game. It is just slower.

Input lag doesn't mean the game speed just goes slow sometimes. Input lag means you press a button and nothing happens for a while. I cannot, for the life of me, imagine why anybody would rather have unresponsive control rather than a slower game speed.

[polarity]

i think anyone who's played pc ggxxr online would agree that consistent input lag of a few frames isn't too bad. basically how pc ggxxr's online netplay works is you set a delay from 0-6f and then you can only play other people using the same delay as you. that delay always remains consistent so it won't fuck up your timing, and from there if there's lag the game slows down rather than introducing more delay. it works pretty well, basically youre giving the user the option of how much delay vs. slowdown they'll tolerate to get the optimal performance for their preference. but perhaps it's not the most user-friendly or idiot-proof option for something like live.

[LeRaldo]

spuffy was saying of having the entire game slow down, even during the parts of no lag.

thats would make it unbearable.

watching online matches? remember the quarters room in HF on the 360?

I've played online a couple times, and it was a nightmare. desyncs, missing even the easiest links

Well that's not what I'm talking about. Rather than having the game just run slower, period, it would run slower according to the ammount of lag. Less lag = less slow down. A side note, SFII'HF seems to run smoother during lag, where as DOA4 seems choppy.

As for quarter matches, 95% of the time I was in a room filled with friends, and we all had good connections to each other, so while there's an obvious difference online compared to offline play, it's still very playable in my opinion.

And yea, online play makes fighting games act funny. That's just how it is. There will never be perfect online play for fighting games. Just look at it as another mode to have fun in, and hope it's the best it can be.

[spudlyff8fan]

DOA4 seems choppy in lag....?

Have you even played DOA4? Because if your connection is so awful that it runs choppy, then you should just get a new ISP.

And sooner or later, there probably will be an online fighting game that runs at 100%.

[SaBrE]

well, sirlin has always claimed he has played a2 coast to coast a while back online on some special software that is not available, and he said it played perfect. so im sure he is trying to shoot for that result. hes always claimed this, so i know thats his goal

[Dipstick]

I perfer option D, moving Los Angeles closer to New York City and getting the entirety of the US wired with fiberoptics.

Barring that, C is the best option, from my experience. It's the basic model GGXX#R online (the PC version, not the Xbox version), efznet, and caster all use (which is a small consistent input delay, and then adjusting the speed of the game accordingly). I have not tried the PC version of #R online yet, but I know EFZ and IaMP play far better online than the commercial games I have tried (CvS2, 3S, HF, DoA4, etc.)

[SaBrE]

yeah it seems like amateurs seem to code netcode better thann the big dogs. its been shown time and time again heh

[LeRaldo]

DOA4 seems choppy in lag....?

Have you even played DOA4? Because if your connection is so awful that it runs choppy, then you should just get a new ISP.

And sooner or later, there probably will be an online fighting game that runs at 100%.

It takes TWO people with decent connections and good routing to each other in order for there to be a lag free game. If you've never had a laggy match on DOA4 then it's you that hasn't played much of it online. Try playing someone from another country; chances are even if you both have 20Mbit connections, the routing will be poor and the distance too great for the match to be lag free. Such isn't ALWAYS the case, but most of the time it is. This can even be the case with people in your own country. If the routing isn't good (too many hops, etc) the conditions will be poor.

And to clarify my post, I wasn't saying DOA4 always runs choppy online. I was saying DURING LAG it seems to be choppier as opposed to say, SFII'HF.

Also, I don't know if there's any input delay in DOA4 or HF (if there is it has to be really minimal), but during lag it's really noticeable in Anniversary Collection. Really frustrating.

[SaBrE]

the problem isnt always the netcode itself. a majority of players are hooked up to a router that has another active pc or 2 on the network. the average person probably has torrents or some bs going on their end to fuck the connection up. plus they got all these firewalls on and antivirus shit, and dont forward their ports, and use wifi connection with the microwave running and cordless phones in use. ok got a little carried away heh. but bottom line, half the problem lies within the user, and unfortunaltely the average user just has no clue on how to optimize their connection for playing a game

[Dandy J]

Outsource it to Poporu or whoever Poporu outsourced their netcode to because it doesn't get any better.

[VruS]

zsnes emulator has the best online play imo. It's 2007, there has to be some way to program netcode like that!

[SaBrE]

zsnes emulator has the best online play imo. It's 2007, there has to be some way to program netcode like that!

QFT

best out there

[polarity]

Isn't ZSNES open source? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out... :confused:

[Captain Ryu]

Yeah out of everything I've played online ssf2 works amazing on zbattle/zsnes. Best I've seen so far. I was pretty much just naming xbl shit before.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

I said Other.

How bout you make the Live experience better. I mean, Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike has minimal slow downs (as far as lag goes) and there's little to no input delay. We shouldn't be making exceptions for this, especially if I'm going to be paying money for old shit.

[Clear Sky]

Outsource it to Poporu or whoever Poporu outsourced their netcode to because it doesn't get any better.

Ditto.

[caliagent#3]

I said Other.

How bout you make the Live experience better. I mean, Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike has minimal slow downs (as far as lag goes) and there's little to no input delay. We shouldn't be making exceptions for this, especially if I'm going to be paying money for old shit.

lol 3s is pretty bad on live when it lags. Tons of animation + lag = horrible matches

[Mycah Leonhart]

All this bitching about "The Best Netcode" is nuts.

Seriously - ask around, Without a doubt the XBL Game period to have the best netcode is KOF: NeoWave, the only game 2nd to KOF NeoWave is KOF '03/KOF: MI (same netcoding I heard) too bad nobody plays MI lol

[SuicidalGrandpa]

lol 3s is pretty bad on live when it lags. Tons of animation + lag = horrible matches

You do international matches? I've only really done domestic...pretty much lag free most of the time. Maybe I've been lucky :looney:

[Captain Ryu]

You do international matches? I've only really done domestic...pretty much lag free most of the time. Maybe I've been lucky :looney:

Theres always a slight delay no matter what. I have a few players I play online that I get awesome connections with that rival offline play but thats about it. Theres still some lag though but its really good. Trust me though, most of the time 3s suffers bigtime online.

On the other hand just about all of my connections in games like CFE, KOF 2k3 and zbattle are top notch instead of just a select few. Also theres usually no noticeable input delay.

[polarity]

I said Other.

How bout you make the Live experience better. I mean, Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike has minimal slow downs (as far as lag goes) and there's little to no input delay. We shouldn't be making exceptions for this, especially if I'm going to be paying money for old shit.

you are an idiot

[msg911]

Don't know if any of you are interested in this, but, you can check out the full slide show over at the gamekult site... dated for 4/12 of course, but, there's some interesting tidbits on other games such as a Super Puzzle Fighter HD Remix. :) Enjoy

http://www.gamekult.com/images/A0000056894/

[complexz]

nobody mentioned how sirlin requested you guys try out mortal kombat 2 online and drop some feedback about how that netcode is.

[caliagent#3]

You do international matches? I've only really done domestic...pretty much lag free most of the time. Maybe I've been lucky :looney:

I'm not saying the game always lags, but when it does 3s is really bad mostly because of all the animation.

[two2tone]

Fighting games are nearing its end...

[spudlyff8fan]

It takes TWO people with decent connections and good routing to each other in order for there to be a lag free game. If you've never had a laggy match on DOA4 then it's you that hasn't played much of it online. Try playing someone from another country; chances are even if you both have 20Mbit connections, the routing will be poor and the distance too great for the match to be lag free. Such isn't ALWAYS the case, but most of the time it is. This can even be the case with people in your own country. If the routing isn't good (too many hops, etc) the conditions will be poor.

And to clarify my post, I wasn't saying DOA4 always runs choppy online. I was saying DURING LAG it seems to be choppier as opposed to say, SFII'HF.

Also, I don't know if there's any input delay in DOA4 or HF (if there is it has to be really minimal), but during lag it's really noticeable in Anniversary Collection. Really frustrating.

I already said earlier in this thread that I can play the Japanese or Europeans with almost no lag. Frequently.

And Mycah, you and me've played Neowave a few times, but I'm telling ya, when it comes to online mode, DOA4 trumps it. And I love Neowave, easy second. But DOA4 is still tops.