Strenghts of N Groove?

[Violent By Design]

I don't exactly understand N Groove, how does the power up super work? Also what does it have that separates it from the other grooves?

[tetsuye00]

The N groove stock system is kind of a cross between the A groove and K groove meters. Whenever you fill the N-groove meter, through attacking or taking damage, you get a stock (max of 3). Each stock can be used for a single level 1 super, or by pressing hp+hk you can enter Max mode. Max mode is similar to Rage, giving the character a damage bonus of 20% and the ability to do a single level 3 super by using another stock. So 1 stock to activate, 1 stock to do a super. So a Level 3 super = 2 stocks.

Because of this N-groove is one of only two grooves that can do a Level 3 followed by a level 1 (S-groove can too).

Main Strengths:
Run & Roll
Low Jump
Alpha Counter
Counter Roll

[Violent By Design]

Ahh thanks alot now I under stand it more clearly.

[tetsuye00]

One last thing:

"Pop Trick"
The recovery time on the Max mode activate can be cancelled into a super, so it is possible to "pop" a stock and then activate a super, giving more invincibility. Invincibility from the activation, then invincibility from the super.

probably most useful for fireball supers (Sagat, Ryu), or demon grab supers (Akuma, Morrigan).

[tharimrattler]

I didn't know you got invincibility from activating in N.

[Lionx]

You dont get Invincibility pop stocking..in fact if i remember right theres actually start up frames(dont know about recovery) so its definetly not instant. The pop trick is just to be so fast and unpredictable that you catch the other guy off guard with a lvl 3 all of a sudden, no invincibility :x

[D@RU]

Shock? Like "YOU HA SHOCK!!!!" in HNK? :rofl:

Is it possible to input the "break stock (HP+HK)" during a super motion? The same way you would RC?

[tetsuye00]

You dont get Invincibility pop stocking..in fact if i remember right theres actually start up frames(dont know about recovery) so its definetly not instant. The pop trick is just to be so fast and unpredictable that you catch the other guy off guard with a lvl 3 all of a sudden, no invincibility :x

hmm, swear you got invincibility like A-groove, I'll have to review

[FSgamer]

"Pop Trick"
The recovery time on the Max mode activate can be cancelled into a super, so it is possible to "pop" a stock and then activate a super, giving more invincibility. Invincibility from the activation, then invincibility from the super.
Breaking stock doesn't have invincibility. If that was the case we would probably be seeing N-groove players doing the same random stuff we see in A (roll, activate; empty jump-in, land, activate; etc). I myself have been hit while breaking stock.
You're right about canceling the recovery of breaking stock into super, though. However, that's more of a psychological effect, it has nothing to do with invincibility.
Is it possible to input the "break stock (HP+HK)" during a super motion? The same way you would RC?
No, it isn't.

[Atb_555]

When you break you got to quick input the super move. Particularly good for N - Yamazaki against a jump in and absolutely king for N - Akuma's raging demon setups.

[FSgamer]

When you break you got to quick input the super move. Particularly good for N - Yamazaki against a jump in and absolutely king for N - Akuma's raging demon setups.
You forgot to mention the best one:

Hibiki - Counter, break stock, run up a bit, Blackout Super. Timing is pretty strict, though.

[Atb_555]

Don't use her though people have been telling me I should.

[WindyMan]

More on N-Groove:

The HP+HK activation animation is 20 frames long, with 4 frames of startup before the stock actually breaks. However, you can cancel the animation after 8 total frames (4 after the stock actually breaks) with a special or super move. A stock break is not invincible. (I think those are the frame numbers, I may be wrong.)

Breaking a stock and entering power-up mode not only gives you a 20% damage boost, it gives you a 20% guard crush boost. If the character you pick has a good guard crush string, performing it while powered-up will drain an opponent's guard crush very quickly. N is the rush-down groove, and because people usually start to panic when their guard crush is almost gone, you can usually get in some big damage off the mistake or when you eventually crush their guard.

A big mistake I see N-Groove players do regularly is sitting on a full 3-stock meter. There are no attack bonuses for a full N-Groove meter. It only does you good if you activate and get the 20% power bonus. Once you hit three stocks, you should almost always break one. An exception is if you're really close to killing off someone. You still might want to activate in this situation anyway, because the extra oomph in your attacks can finish off enemies more quickly if they are starting to get down to pixels of life. Basically, don't lose to someone with a sliver of vital left if your meter is full.

Don't wait for your meter to fill when you activate, either. A good time to powerup normally is when you have two stocks, plus 25%~75% of your meter built up. If your timer runs out, you're not that far off from having two stocks again. You should activate two times per round, on the average.

Also, don't be afraid to activate when you only have one stock! This is especially true toward the end of the last round. If you're not going to have enough time to get a second stock, and a level 1 super would be over kill, break it. That 20% damage will go a long way.

I believe that counter roll is the most powerful ability in the game. It lets you do things you can't do in other grooves, like:
-Escape (and punish!) round-ending block damage attacks
-Punish supers that are normally "safe"
-Turn the tables on an opponent's corner trap and trap them instead
-Escape (and punish!) blocked A-Groove combos (Sakura especially)
-Level 3 super off an alpha counter attack (Raiden and M.Bison only)
Counter rolls in general give you free damage in a lot of situations, the most common being the hadouken or other projectile to end an attack string. Just wait for the second to last attack, counter roll through the fireball and cash in your free combo. If you break stock with 3 in the bank, this lets you do a counter roll into a level 3 super (or counter attack into Level 3 if you're Raiden or M.Bison).

The counter movement back step is useful in few areas. You primarily will want to use it to make some space between you and an opponent if you find yourself in an uncomfortable attack string. You would probably lose the guard bar in the attack process, so you might as well gain position, and possibly and advantage, while you do it. Back stepping is also handy against characters with slow-moving projectiles, like Guile. If they hit you with a Sonic Boom and then jump or dash in for a follow-up attack, back stepping will make them whiff, and you may be able to get a free hit in. People will argue that this may not be worth burning a stock over, but if you're always free to do what you want, and N-Groove lets you do that, getting the meter back shouldn't be a problem.

[FullMetalRoss]

Actually if Kyo's alpha counter trades (which it often does) You can juggle a lvl3 off it, it's really only applicable in the corner cause then the super will "pick them up" if you do the button hold, though it is possible midscreen, it just doesn't happen often.

Really any super with juggle potential can juggle off an alpha counter.

I bet if akuma's alpha counter traded with something you could prolly run foward and dp or lk hurricane if you were quick, though it might only be if you are near the corner cause his alpha counter if I remember right is that stupid punch.

The rest of what windy man said is good stuff for sure.

[Atb_555]

Yeah I have to admit I don't fully use N-Groove to its full potential. That stuff it good WindyMan worth pasting into the Wiki. I didn't know you cancel the stock break animation into a special.

[FullMetalRoss]

Yeah I have to admit I don't fully use N-Groove to its full potential. That stuff it good WindyMan worth pasting into the Wiki. I didn't know you cancel the stock break animation into a special.

Yeah thats old school, it's what in the djb13 vids is known as a pop trick.

[Atb_555]

Seen, but I initially thought that was only the case for supers not specials. Usually I don't pop a stock enough in match cos the animation leaves you a bit open. But with the knowledge that you can cancel the animation into a special at a certain point is reassuring.

[WindyMan]

You forgot to mention the best one:

Hibiki - Counter, break stock, run up a bit, Blackout Super. Timing is pretty strict, though.

Actually, I'm pretty sure this is impossible if you're not in a corner. Popping into a regular Level 3 works anywhere, and popping into a blackout only works in the corners. I do it all the time.

Seen, but I initially thought that was only the case for supers not specials. Usually I don't pop a stock enough in match cos the animation leaves you a bit open. But with the knowledge that you can cancel the animation into a special at a certain point is reassuring.

You can use this to your advantage during an opponent wakeup. If your character has a really good forward-moving special attack, like the rekkas of Kyo or Iori, if you time the activation right you can dupe the opponent into thinking they've got an opportunity to punish your stock break. Just as they come out of block you can hit 'em with an attack. This works best if you wait toward the tail end of the activation to give them time to react. Also use point-blank activations to spook people and throw after.

Note that you can't cancel an activation with normals or regular throws, only specials, supers or a roll.

[tetsuye00]

Note that you can't cancel an activation with normals or regular throws, only specials, supers or a roll.

I assume that this means that you can cancel an activation into a roll cancel.

[WindyMan]

I assume that this means that you can cancel an activation into a roll cancel.

Yes. If you can roll, you can roll cancel.

...with one exception. Counter rolls cannot be roll canceled. So don't try it!

[vkuwabara]

does the counter movement has always the same duration of the character's roll?

[kingfismit]

does the counter movement has always the same duration of the character's roll?
the duration looks the same to me

PS- Ngroove has the level 4 supers.:smokin:
(kim, terry, Hibiki,)off the top of my head

[the_judge]

the duration looks the same to me

PS- Ngroove has the level 4 supers.:smokin:
(kim, terry, Hibiki,)off the top of my head

I used to say that due to the power boost from max + the lvl 3 + a lvl 1
Those 3 are good examples, don't forget Kyosuke.
Sagat and Yun, but theirs suck.

[tetsuye00]

I used to say that due to the power boost from max + the lvl 3 + a lvl 1

Yeah, but don't forget that the +20% damage from Max doesn't apply to supers, unlike Rage.

[the_judge]

Yeah, but don't forget that the +20% damage from Max doesn't apply to supers, unlike Rage.

it doesn't lemme test it

EDIT: You're right it doesn't.

[Leezy]

I was gonna say...it doesn't seem to practical to waste the lvl 1 after a lvl 3 unless it's a guaranteed kill...

EXCEPT when you're Campbell Tran, then it's okay.

[Logos]

I think in the case of doing a level one after, for example, Hibiki's rave super the damage scaling means that the level one actually does a significantly higher amount of damage.

[Leezy]

^
That's why I said except when you're Campbell...'cause who else uses N-Hibiki on a tournament level?

Oh, and my point was that leaving yourself with absolutely no meter is usually not worth the extra damage because you lose a lot of options without meter. From a strategic standpoint, I think it's almost always a better option to save that last stock for the rest of the match unless the extra damage is guaranteed to kill the character and the slash won't. What is the damage difference between finishing with lvl 1 dash super and fierce slash anyway?

[Logos]

lol, true. Don't really see many N-Hibikis.

As far as the actual amount of damage, I think it's something like 1-1.5k extra. I'm not really sure off the top of my head, though. Let me check the Hibiki forum.

Edit: According to the man himself,

After a deadly rave super, the combo hit count is high enough that damage scaling becomes fairly severe on the running slash xx trip slash combo. The level 1 super becomes more worth it in this case, doing roughly 1600 more dmg. By comboing into the deadly rave super you can do roughly 10000 dmg in one combo.I guess that answers it for us both. :wink:

[Leezy]

Well that's pretty gay. Just like Campbell.

That makes sense then...so it's worth it damage wise if they have a multi-hit lvl 3 to burn a lvl 1 after, but probably not much difference if they have like a one-hit lvl 3 'cause the damage scaling isn't as bad after fewer hits.

I still think strategically it's better to save it...but then again, Hibiki doesn't absolutely need meter to be effective. Depends on character and match situation, I guess.

[Legendary Gokou]

Another thing you have to consider is stun. Finishing the level 3 with the fierce slash combo afterwards does quite a bit of stun. If you had landed a few hits prior to hitting the super they'll likely be dizzied. Just a factor to think on.

[WindyMan]

I almost never use a Level 1 after a Level 3 when using Hibiki. The only time I do is when I'm pretty sure the extra damage will be enough to finish off the match, because with how I play N-Groove I feel having stocks is more important than getting in that little bit more of damage. More importantly, you're only a stock away from getting another Lv3 opportunity. Hibiki can fill meter at a better-than-most rate, so that happens faster than you'd think.

And actually, Hibiki is a pretty good character in N because she is very dangerous when powered up. Not only because of the Lv3 supers, but also because she can wear down guard crush bars very easily when powered-up. Any regular attack string can be finished off with a distance slash. It only takes three or four of them to break guard, or at least get the other guy really worried. That's why I prefer to save my stock instead of burn it. It gives me more options post-super.

[Logos]

Yeah, I never said she's bad in N, just that not many people play her in that groove. I guess not many people play N in general, though.

[tharimrattler]

Yeah, but don't forget that the +20% damage from Max doesn't apply to supers, unlike Rage.

Wait, you're saying in K they get the damage bonus on their super also? 35% is it?

[tetsuye00]

Wait, you're saying in K they get the damage bonus on their super also? 35% is it?

Um, after looking over the system faq, here's the K groove breakdown:
Normal attacks : 135
Special attacks : 130%
Super attacks : 110%

AFAIK, K groove is the only groove that gains bonus damage to supers.

[Logos]

Yup, most damaging level 3 supers in the game.

[Leezy]

I thought S had the most damaging supers, because they're so impractical since you're near death anyway...

[tetsuye00]

I thought S had the most damaging supers, because they're so impractical since you're near death anyway...

yeah, but there are some good gimmicky S characters. Like my friend Jaguarandine's S-Todo. Lvl 1 counter supers and constant cr.mk xx fireball supers.

[Lobelia Mk. IV]

^^^
S-Bison, anyone?

[tharimrattler]

I remember testing supers and though N had the most damaging supers. I must have been mistaken.

[kingfismit]

Another thing you have to consider is stun. Finishing the level 3 with the fierce slash combo afterwards does quite a bit of stun. If you had landed a few hits prior to hitting the super they'll likely be dizzied. Just a factor to think on.
its only like 13 points of stun with the fierce slash combo.

[FSgamer]

I remember testing supers and though N had the most damaging supers. I must have been mistaken.
Turn off infinite meter.

[tetsuye00]

I remember testing supers and though N had the most damaging supers. I must have been mistaken.

Turn off infinite meter.

Yeah, I test under Recovery mode, as it allows for good testing of N and C groove damage.

[wepeel]

Yeah, I test under Recovery mode, as it allows for good testing of N and C groove damage.

Umm...

Do Ken's standard lvl2 cancel (shoryureppa, command roll, fierce DP)

Before you get a chance to hit him with the fierce DP, the recovery option will fill your meter back to max. Is that good testing??? Lvl3 in C-groove gives 105%, wheras in real play outside of training mode, you will not get that 105% damage boost, but rather whatever having a lvl1 stock will give you.

If you want to test damage reliably, put the dummy on A-groove and make sure your meter is set to Normal or Max Start. Voila:party:

[tetsuye00]

Umm...

Do Ken's standard lvl2 cancel (shoryureppa, command roll, fierce DP)

Before you get a chance to hit him with the fierce DP, the recovery option will fill your meter back to max. Is that good testing??? Lvl3 in C-groove gives 105%, wheras in real play outside of training mode, you will not get that 105% damage boost, but rather whatever having a lvl1 stock will give you.

If you want to test damage reliably, put the dummy on A-groove and make sure your meter is set to Normal or Max Start. Voila:party:

hmm, didn't know it refilled that fast.

As far as dummy damage, I don't think the groove matters. The Guard Bars are different lengths, but I don't know of anything that causes characters to take less damage.

[tharimrattler]

There are defensive bonuses to most grooves. Thats why people test on A dummys.

[tetsuye00]

There are defensive bonuses to most grooves. Thats why people test on A dummys.

I've heard about defensive bonuses, but can't find any hard facts on them. both the system faqs seem to say nothing on the topic. I'll keep looking.

[wepeel]

I've heard about defensive bonuses, but can't find any hard facts on them. both the system faqs seem to say nothing on the topic. I'll keep looking.

Hard facts???
Set the dummy on K-groove rage. Hit him with a fierce. Compare that to the dummy on a-groove. K-groove takes less damage when raged because it has a defense bonus. Try it with other grooves. A-groove gets no defense bonus for having partial, empty, or full meter, but other grooves do. If you have the game to test this out, it shouldn't be very difficult to get results and compare.

Hard facts...come now, don't turn into kcxj part 2 or anything like that for heaven's sake...

[CMX]

P-groove doesn't get defense bonus either right?

[tetsuye00]

I haven't been able to get to my console and training mode, but the only info I have is that K-groove does in fact get a 12.5% damage reduction when Raged. I'll check on other stuff later.

[Atb_555]

^ Reduction?

[tetsuye00]

Apparently you take 12.5% less damage while Raged. Still gotta check the other grooves, may not get to them until tomorrow.

[Atb_555]

Cool, I never knew about that.

[Buktooth]

its only like 13 points of stun with the fierce slash combo.
ending the hibiki super with close roundhouse xx fierce run slash xx trip slash is like 40ish points of stun damage

[Atb_555]

Is there a guide about stun?

[FSgamer]

Is there a guide about stun?
As far as I know, stun is always the same, regardless of whether you're raged/powered-up/whatever.

[tetsuye00]

Each character has a specific Stun Meter, you ccan check the faq(s) Buktooth's or Chensor's for the exact values.

[CMX]

just turn on attack data in training mode no need for a guide about stun

[Iczer one]

I remember testing supers and though N had the most damaging supers. I must have been mistaken.
No you're not mistaken.
N gives you a damage boost of 20% to normals, specials AND supers, while K is +35% to normals, +30% to specials and +10% to supers.

[Atb_555]

That can't be right. K-groove lvl3s are notorious for high damage.

[gridman]

No you're not mistaken.
N gives you a damage boost of 20% to normals, specials AND supers, while K is +35% to normals, +30% to specials and +10% to supers.

N doesnt do the most damage. Im almost positive it goes S > K > N > C > P > A

[Buktooth]

that old "damage tier" chart is wrong. whichever srk staff tested it had it on infinite meter

only kgroove gets a damage bonus from supers, and it's only 10%. it's pretty negligible, unless it's a one-hit super that counter hits (blanka level 3)

[tetsuye00]

that old "damage tier" chart is wrong. whichever srk staff tested it had it on infinite meter

only kgroove gets a damage bonus from supers, and it's only 10%. it's pretty negligible, unless it's a one-hit super that counter hits (blanka level 3)

Don't the S supers the 5% red-life bonus, 15% full meter bonus, or 20.7% combined bonus?

I'll do a serious test of all the damage bonuses and defense bonuses later today.

[Iczer one]

It's true.

Just tested (infinite meter), Joe's Double Cyclone Super against P-groove (no defense boost):

P: 6000 (no boost)
C: 6300 (+5%)
K: 6600 (+10%)
N: 7200 (+20%)
S: 7236 (+20.75%, +5% * +15%)

S > N > K > C > P

No damage boost when not infinite meter, so Buktooth is right. S gets +5%, K +10%, that's it.

[tetsuye00]

Alright, so I did thorough testing of all the grooves in training mode today. I tested under Normal meter.

Damage Bonuses:
tested with R2 Sagat against R2-A-Blanka. S.Fierce - 1600, Fierce Fireball - 1000, Lvl1 & Lvl3 Tiger Shot - 2500 & 5200

C-Groove
0 Bars/Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

1 Bar

Normal - 1616 - +1%
Special - 1010 - +1%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

2 Bars

Normal - 1632 - +2%
Special - 1020 - +2%
Lvl 1 Super - 2525 - +1%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

3 Bars/Full Meter

Normal - 1680 - +5%
Special - 1050 - +5%
Lvl 1 Super - 2525 - +2%
Lvl 3 Super - 5200 - +0%

NOTE: After looking over the supers, C-groove does gain a damage bonus to supers, based on the amount of meter left after doing the super.

A-Groove
0 Bars/Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A

1 Bar

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%

2 Bars/Full Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%

Custom Combo

Normal - 1152 - -28%
Special - 720 - -28%
Lvl 1 Super - 2000 - -20%

NOTE: Damage Noted in Custom Combo was always first hit of combo, thus further hits may do less damage do to damage scaling.

P-Groove
0 Bars/Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

1 Bar/Full Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - 5200 - +0%


S-Groove
0 Bars/Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

1 Bar/Full Meter

Normal - 1840 - +15%
Special - 1150 - +15%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

Red Life

Normal - 1680 - +5%
Special - 1050 - +5%
Lvl 1 Super - 2625 - +5%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

Red Life & Full Meter

Normal - 1932 - +20.7%
Special - 1207 - +20.7%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A
Lvl 3 Super - 5460 - +5%


N-Groove
0 Stocks/Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

1 Stock

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

2 Stocks

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

3 Stocks/Full Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 1 Super - 2500 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

Max Mode

Normal - 1920 - +20%
Special - 1200 - +20%
Lvl 1 Super - N/A
Lvl 3 Super - 5200 - +0%


K-Groove
Empty Meter

Normal - 1600 - +0%
Special - 1000 - +0%
Lvl 3 Super - N/A

Raged/Full Meter

Normal - 2160 - +35%
Special - 1300 - +30%
Lvl 3 Super - 5720 - +10%


So C, S, & K gain bonuses to Supers. A & P gain no bonuses at all.

[tetsuye00]

Oh, and I tested Defense bonuses too. That list is really boring. Only K-groove gains a bonus and only while Raged. So as long as you don't test against K, it doesn't matter what the opponent's groove is.

K - -12.5% damage

[tharimrattler]

Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure N gains some defensive bonus while in "max mode". C and S should also gain some defensive bonus when they have meter.

[tetsuye00]

Are you sure about that? I am pretty sure N gains some defensive bonus while in "max mode". C and S should also gain some defensive bonus when they have meter.

Unless it is only against specials or supers, there are no defensive bonuses. Only K reduced the power of a Sagat s.fierce.