online tactics

[mrdhalsim]

I have noticed the following tactics over the past week or so can extremely effective online in order to play to win at this game... here they are, and why:

1. Do not block, ever. I played someone today, I think it was Injurious moth? Whoever it was, he never, ever blocked, and won all 9 games. Blocking is largely a crapshoot it seems (esp. when opponent employs #2 below). He has a yellow ryu and often played that with akuma and ken. lots of various attacks with caution thrown completely to the wind- just keep throwing out various attacks.

2. Jump kick, low kick. With shotos especially. This is effective because not only do they have to block high, but then block low immediately after that- assuming they see the low kick on their screen start to come out at all, that is. You can often get in a third hit and still be safe after this, if they manage to block the first two attacks. Do not try to go for combos, just keep doing this over and over.

3. Roll to the other side of their character. Not always useful but if you both land near each other this is a good strategy. This is effective for the same reason as 2, only, it's in the other dimension (left-right). if they were blocking one way, they may not see it on their screen until your move starts to come out. Even if they press block or jab/short, your move will get them first, usually.

4. Mix up the jump types. This tactic can win matches alone. The farther jumps move faster (less frames over similar amount of time) so they have to not only deal with the jump in, but often are forced to decide if it might be a cross up or not.

5. In the corner or from far away, jump straight up. Hold your finger over a kick button. Sure, they might try to get in somehow, but it's a very risk proposition for them because the timing has to be much more precise than the lag can typically handle.

XSPR

[DaliPower]

Let me know when you come back to the US

[Emil]

While I agree that there are many lag tactics, I think you overexaggerate yours, and they are actually easy to beat...


1. Do not block, ever. I played someone today, I think it was Injurious moth? Whoever it was, he never, ever blocked, and won all 9 games. Blocking is largely a crapshoot it seems (esp. when opponent employs #2 below). He has a yellow ryu and often played that with akuma and ken. lots of various attacks with caution thrown completely to the wind- just keep throwing out various attacks.

What type of attacks? The only thing I'd kind of agree with here is that, mashing between the other person's attack strings can be beneficial online because it is much easy to mistime them than in the reality...but it's still very risky to do so.

2. Jump kick, low kick. With shotos especially. This is effective because not only do they have to block high, but then block low immediately after that- assuming they see the low kick on their screen start to come out at all, that is. You can often get in a third hit and still be safe after this, if they manage to block the first two attacks. Do not try to go for combos, just keep doing this over and over.

If this is all they are going to do, then it's extremely easy to beat. Just walk under them and combo them in the back (unless their jump attack is a crossup, then I wouldn't try this). Obviously there is delay online but it's not so hard to react to this with a dp if they do it most of the time.

3. Roll to the other side of their character. Not always useful but if you both land near each other this is a good strategy. This is effective for the same reason as 2, only, it's in the other dimension (left-right). if they were blocking one way, they may not see it on their screen until your move starts to come out. Even if they press block or jab/short, your move will get them first, usually.

This is one lag tactic I agree is a bit too good... The existence of this results in me having to turtle up a lot. If I turtle and know when the opponent would decide to roll, then it gets easier to punish the roll. Still, there are people who only know big combos and no strategies, and they become dangerous opponents online when they utilize the roll lag tactic.

4. Mix up the jump types. This tactic can win matches alone. The farther jumps move faster (less frames over similar amount of time) so they have to not only deal with the jump in, but often are forced to decide if it might be a cross up or not.

This is where vertical jump air to air attacks are useful. Also, stand outside of your opponent's best poke range, and use long range high pokes to prevent people from trying to jump at you if they are close...

5. In the corner or from far away, jump straight up. Hold your finger over a kick button. Sure, they might try to get in somehow, but it's a very risk proposition for them because the timing has to be much more precise than the lag can typically handle.

XSPR

I'm not so sure about this one. If they use this a lot, you should do your fastest forward jump air to air attack. That or just fireball them...

[mrdhalsim]

Hi Emil, here's how ponder explained why jumping kick, low kick problem is no exaggeration:

"The most hated one (for me) in HF is the Shoto j.RH, l.RH. It’s trivially blocked offline, but online you need to reverse your block from high to low either before, during, or slightly after the j.RH is blocked depending on what the network decided your lag factor was (and therefore how many frames of input its buffering). Even if you can block j.RH, l.RH, it’s countered by j.RH, s.jab (whiff), throw, which is literally uncounterable. By the time you see the s.jab it’s too late to input anything to affect the eventual outcome."

If lag affects something so fundamental to the basic mechanics of playing the game, you can only imagine how pointless it is with all the other possibilites.

What type of attacks? The only thing I'd kind of agree with here is that, mashing between the other person's attack strings can be beneficial online because it is much easy to mistime them than in the reality...but it's still very risky to do so.
I think Injurious Moth just mixed up various things like hk, dp, fb, along with rolls and jumping/low roundhouse kicks. Not just jab dp's, but fierce dps. Normally you could just bank on returning at least a move or two on his recovery time from that but just a little lag (maybe influenced/built up due to all the input he's making the network transfer to your xbox?) makes it impossible, or at best you'll mistime to whiff the move. by that time, he's on to his next or next after that move which will likely hit you. Mixing it up and keeping it random seemed to help a lot.


If this is all they are going to do, then it's extremely easy to beat. Just walk under them and combo them in the back (unless their jump attack is a crossup, then I wouldn't try this). Obviously there is delay online but it's not so hard to react to this with a dp if they do it most of the time.

Actually, this one gets you the most bang for the buck (as explained above). But trying to block high, then low is an easier counter to this than what you suggest, of simply walking under it- at most distances where it's safe for the guy trying the tactic to start his jump at, trying to just walk under it will either get you kicked normally, or at best, block it as a cross up (and if you try to combo after that you will be even more likely to get hit by the subsequent low roundhouse kick).


This is one lag tactic I agree is a bit too good... The existence of this results in me having to turtle up a lot. If I turtle and know when the opponent would decide to roll, then it gets easier to punish the roll. Still, there are people who only know big combos and no strategies, and they become dangerous opponents online when they utilize the roll lag tactic.

Personally, I've found the roll bothers me the least of all of the lag tactics. A lot jab/short helps me out a lot. Other than that I can usually exploit the recovery time a lot easier than other attacks. (Then again I'm not sure I've seen it used to its full potential yet.)


This is where vertical jump air to air attacks are useful. Also, stand outside of your opponent's best poke range, and use long range high pokes to prevent people from trying to jump at you if they are close...[/QUOTE

With Honda, what does he have that are long range high pokes?

Also, air-to-air attacks are another are where lag *seriously* affects what is trivial offline. For this tactic specifically, by the time you see them in the air it is much too late- you will not be able to get in the air fast enough to get out any attack, and will basically get hit by their jumping roundhouse easily.

When you do a move on the ground, and it is mistimed, you are either stationary or moving in one dimension (left or right) at most. That's enough to mess you up but in the air you're often moving in an arc and if you want the move to come out *late* in the jump, if there's any lag even if you jam on the button it likely won't come out until you land (when you often *don't* want it, not just because it's too late though it often is by that time).

[QUOTE=Emil;3950912]
I'm not so sure about this one. If they use this a lot, you should do your fastest forward jump air to air attack. That or just fireball them...

Honda doesn't have a projectile, but yeah I guess it'd be hard to do this against other characters. Against other characters like Honda it works pretty well.

With some character matchups, this is pretty tough, and at best air-to-air ties hits. But the character doing this tactic is already in the corner, so can just start it again. What should I do with Honda against this attack? His jumping fierce seems useless. Jumping jab sometimes ok, usually trades hits. Using the flash kick move doesn't seem to work at all either.

XSPR

[mrdhalsim]

I just played Injurious moth a bunch of games again and noticed it wasn't just the jump kick, low kick nightmare he deals out- he also works in the DP's with ken/akuma and sometimes ryu where, when you see the DP start to come out, you're like, ok, what goes up, must come down, just wait, and then nail him on the way down or his landing. But you often miss either trying for on the way down or with low attack on the ground, because by the time *your* move comes out, he's already started a second dp (or hk sometimes?). Anyways, a good strategy seems to be to do a second DP right after one that misses. This doesn't "change" the game, it mostly ruins it altogether. I tried to get my super out many times, but the input would just be dropped so either I'd keep on blocking (honda's charge) or standing fierce would come out.

Also, I notice Honda's flash kick move doesn't go through projectiles, at least not all of them or consistently. Even ryu's (maybe his red one?) sometimes. but definitely not king's or a lot of snk characters. And what's up with snk chars being able to sneak out two projectiles at a time? Even when I can get through some, like Sagat's low tiger, he can often get out another tiger before I can recover (but maybe that was always true, can't remember).

XSPR

[MaybeMemories]

e h
2)Jump kick low kick is like scrub material, its
easily blocked, cause everyone knows jump kick will most likley land and follow with a low hit. Plus in SFIII it parried to bits and punished extensivley

[mrdhalsim]

e h
2)Jump kick low kick is like scrub material, its
easily blocked, cause everyone knows jump kick will most likley land and follow with a low hit. Plus in SFIII it parried to bits and punished extensivley

You must be confusing online SF with offline SF. Jump kick, and then low kick is most definitely *not* "easily blocked" online (which is what this thread's about- *online* tactics).

Whether you know the low kick is coming after the jump kick is really irrelevant, because your options are completely at the mercy of lag and how fast your xbox can catch up to your opponent's, in terms of constant gamespeed between you.

Even if you manage to block the low kick, the same problem persists with having to catch up. If you think about it, blocking the low kick is really anticipated (though usually safe), but the guy jump kicking doesn't even _have_ to do the low kick. He figures you'll try to block it, and just jump straight up again-- by the time you see this, he's on his way down (i.e. another jump kick to block) and it's not enough time to have charged anything.

XSPR

[Sonickun]

close up low jump attack is rearly blocked cuz they expect a low puch or kick or a hard kick trip after da oppent wakes up(but they can punish with a move like ryus uppercut) i got those tactics from my old days of playing KOF thats why my fighting style is all rush and power with no block and never jump back aka runaway

[MaybeMemories]

You must be confusing online SF with offline SF. Jump kick, and then low kick is most definitely *not* "easily blocked" online (which is what this thread's about- *online* tactics).

Whether you know the low kick is coming after the jump kick is really irrelevant, because your options are completely at the mercy of lag and how fast your xbox can catch up to your opponent's, in terms of constant gamespeed between you.

Even if you manage to block the low kick, the same problem persists with having to catch up. If you think about it, blocking the low kick is really anticipated (though usually safe), but the guy jump kicking doesn't even _have_ to do the low kick. He figures you'll try to block it, and just jump straight up again-- by the time you see this, he's on his way down (i.e. another jump kick to block) and it's not enough time to have charged anything.

XSPR


im not sure if i understand, sorry. Im assuming there not much difference in block etc in 3S, usually when a flying kick comes you press back then while holding back u go down... everyone does it in 3s.

[mrdhalsim]

im not sure if i understand, sorry. Im assuming there not much difference in block etc in 3S, usually when a flying kick comes you press back then while holding back u go down... everyone does it in 3s.

Yes, your assumption is ok, 3s and cvs2 have the same thing. As you mention, it is easy to block and one of the very first things you learn as a beginner in these or any other SF game. It's very basic and it becomes second nature quickly, compared to anything else in the games.

But when you play *online* (e.g. on XBox Live, over the Internet), lag often interferes with gameplay. Because it's so simple/basic to the game, it can often ruin the entire experience of the game and how it should be played- anything more complicated than blocking high, then low, is not so easy to do because you cannot predict the random changes of gamespeed. It affects everything... while blocking, you don't want to think about the blocking, you want to think about what you will do next. Sonickun mentioned cvs2's low jump attacks, many (?) of which have to be blocked high. If you're not ready for it, they can come out faster than 3s' middle punch+middle kick overheads.

btw is Honda supposed to deal with king's projectiles by long jumping over them? I usually get hit by her standing kick or something when I try to jump.

XSPR

[MrSNK]

:rofl: I can honestly say this is the funniest shit i've ever read.