The Suikoden Thread v.109

[Kyoujin]

Hey all,

Welcome to another Suikoden thread; I realize there hasn't been a new release in awhile, but I like to start this thread up again from time to time.

Feel free to post your thoughts, tips, memories, tactics, or anything else pertaining to Suikoden.

Has anyone played the PSP ports of Suikoden 1/2? I'm thinking of importing it, as the North American market usually gets screwed over when it comes fantastic releases of that nature.

I still remember when I first played Suikoden: it was the ninth grade, and an aquiantance of mine wanted a copy of the first Twisted Metal. I told him I would gladly trade him for something that peaked my interested, and he told me about Suikoden (which I had never heard of). I decided to make the trade, and was a little hesitant when I saw the cover, which I'm sure we can all agree is very, very poor. Anyways, I have been hooked ever since...they are head and shoulders, to me, above any other titles, RPG-wise.

Sadly, and one of the very few things I regret in life, I traded in my copies of 1 and 2; I was young and stupid.

I'm playing four (suprisingly enough, for the first time), and I'm enjoying the story, although the map is getting on my nerves a little. I'm going to start over 5 because I missed ALOT of characters, and want to do my best to guide most, if not all (without using a guide, of course).

EDIT: By the way, if anyone has copies of Suikoden 1 or 2 that they are willing to sell (for a reasonable price, not my soul), I would appreciate it.
(I'm doubtful, though...)

[ytwojay]

I've never played a Suikoden game. Which ones should I play?

[Infested Jester]

I've never played a Suikoden game. Which ones should I play?

Part 1 for sure, part 2 if you can find it for under $80, part 3 if you have patience, beginning is very slow IMO.

[Kyoujin]

Well, if you're cool with 2d games, and I assume you are since this is SRK, I would start with 2; but since it's hard to find, I would try renting Suikoden 5; 3 is slow and mainly enjoyed by long-time fans, 4 is generally considered the worst, but five has gotten alot of positive feedback.

[Darkstalker]

The only real difference between 4 and the other games is that stupid boat. Which can greatly detract from the world map experience.

Suikoden games are generally light RPGs which can be played pretty casually. Very easy to pick up and play (collecting all the Stars is an exercise in tedium though, mostly).

I recommend Tactics though, as far as Suikodens go. The gameplay is good, focused on controlling terrain and is quite a bit different from other SRPGs. It's the odd one out though, so if you like the typical Suikoden formula, you might not like this one.

[hanz0]

1 and 2 are the best you will not regret investing your time in these games,
from part 3 the series pretty much died to me cause all that 3d stuff just turned it off to me:sad:

[ytwojay]

I actually have part 2, I just never got around to playing it.

So I should play parts 1, 2 and 5? If 3 and 4 are slow, I'm probably not going to play them. I don't have that much free time, and I have a pretty short attention span ;o

[Aion]

I'm actually playing through Suikoden V right now, can't get enough of it ^^

[TNPR]

im selling sukioden 2 and suikoden tactics :)

[Aion]

Oh yeah how is Tactics? I was considering getting it.

[Kyoujin]

im selling sukioden 2 and suikoden tactics :)

How much are you selling 2 for?

[spudlyff8fan]

I actually have part 2, I just never got around to playing it.

So I should play parts 1, 2 and 5? If 3 and 4 are slow, I'm probably not going to play them. I don't have that much free time, and I have a pretty short attention span ;o

The early part of the story of Suiko 3 is divided up into a three-chapter story for each of the three characters. If you just make sure to complete each individual character's story before starting another character's story, it goes by alot faster. Especially if you do Hugo's story, then Geddoe's, then Thomas', then Chris'.

And Tactics is pretty awful...I played most of it...but it's just lame.

[Kyoujin]

The early part of the story of Suiko 3 is divided up into a three-chapter story for each of the three characters. If you just make sure to complete each individual character's story before starting another character's story, it goes by alot faster. Especially if you do Hugo's story, then Geddoe's, then Thomas', then Chris'.

And Tactics is pretty awful...I played most of it...but it's just lame.

Oh man, I totally forgot about Thomas! I loved that story arc:tup:

I found 3 to be the hardest, by the way.

[spudlyff8fan]

When it came to recruiting, definitely. You didn't have all that Suikoden 1/2/5 garbage where you just find the guy and beat em. And boss fights are alot more frequent.

And yeah, Thomas is the man.

Though actually, you may want to do Hugo, then Thomas, then Geddoe, then Chris. There's some spoilers for the Thomas story in Geddoe's chapters.

[Kyoujin]

Recruiting for five was rather hard, I find; mainly because the game is so spacious, and it's hard to determine where and when things will happen; also, Oboro doesn't help like Richmond did.

Back to 3, I remember reading somewhere that Thomas (or maybe Cecil) was a physical tank; I haven't tested this statement yet.

I'm not sure why alot of people didn't like 3; I loved all the new elements it had (techniques, which could make your character MUCH better), while retaining all the old ones.

[Mr. Bastos]

Oh man, I totally forgot about Thomas! I loved that story arc:tup:

I found 3 to be the hardest, by the way.

really? I thought it was pretty easy. Juan and Emily at high levels were insane. for me the last boss required 4 actions. of which only 3 were attacks. 4 was also really easy cuz of that arena thing on the ship. I got my main team to 99 with ease

[Son Them All]

I'm actually playing through Suikoden V right now, can't get enough of it ^^

Me too, I'm playing it as I type this actually. Fans of 2 and people not so fond of 3 NEED to play V. It is the 3D incarnation and first real spiritual successor to the first 2. It also has THE best character designs and the best translation in the whole series.

[spudlyff8fan]

Cecile was a monstrous tank, since you can get her (I believe) to S rank shield and if you gave her the firefly rune, attacks would bounce right off her. Thomas had some of the best attack power in the game if you spend the jillion potch on his sword upgrades.

But there's really no logical reason to dislike 3.

[Mr. Bastos]

Cecile was a monstrous tank, since you can get her (I believe) to S rank shield and if you gave her the firefly rune, attacks would bounce right off her. Thomas had some of the best attack power in the game if you spend the jillion potch on his sword upgrades.

But there's really no logical reason to dislike 3.

yeah she was really good, though my main team was Hugo/Fubar, Juan/Emily, Mua/Nei. I gave Mua firefly and haziness runes. Hugo/Fubar just beat shit up same with Juan/Emily and Nei chanted madness song since she was the best with the jongleur. Juan/Emily's team attack was too fuckin good especially with madness song going. thats how I managed to kill the last boss so easily.

[Lucretz]

I've beaten Suikoden 1 and 2, and own 2. I love those games alot. Suikoden 2 might be my favorite RPG ever.

Though, I actually haven't even gotten into the games past that. I believe I rented 4, or some one that was about ships and being some douchebag in the Navy and it didn't interest me at all. I thought the characters were very plain looking and the scenery wasn't interesting at all. I really liked the 2D animated style of the games beforehand much better.

[spudlyff8fan]

yeah she was really good, though my main team was Hugo/Fubar, Juan/Emily, Mua/Nei. I gave Mua firefly and haziness runes. Hugo/Fubar just beat shit up same with Juan/Emily and Nei chanted madness song since she was the best with the jongleur. Juan/Emily's team attack was too fuckin good especially with madness song going. thats how I managed to kill the last boss so easily.

Yeah, I was alot more beatdown-oriented with Geddoe/Jacques, Cecile/Viki and Futch/Edge.

Emily and Juan are great, but I still like having some range and magic. Though I could easily enough switch around Futch or Edge for Emily. But Emily's ability to drop...eight attacks, I think, rules.

[Mr. Bastos]

Yeah, I was alot more beatdown-oriented with Geddoe/Jacques, Cecile/Viki and Futch/Edge.

Emily and Juan are great, but I still like having some range and magic. Though I could easily enough switch around Futch or Edge for Emily. But Emily's ability to drop...eight attacks, I think, rules.

yeah she could get crazy combos going..and juan had like a good chance of starting his attack over or something like that. I normally like having a good balance but in 3 I just like Juan/Emily too much.

in 4 I used Main, Ted, Jeane, Gau. Main Hero with Rune of Punishment, Ted owned hard with Soul Eater, Jeane with anythin I gave her, and and I gave Gau a double strike rune(or whatever one made him deal and take double damage) and some armor set that gave him berserk status, he dealt out crazy damage and was always first to attack and had good HP so he could take hits even though he was takin double damage.

unfortunately I never finished 5 cuz I was workin so much OT at the time I never had time. I need to get around to finishing it.

[Ouroborus]

suikoden 5 is the best rpg on the ps2 by far.

imo, it surpasses 2. its that damn good.

skip 3 and 4, its not worth your time.

[Kyoujin]

So far, 5 has taken me the longest to beat; the character design are some of the best in the series, I agree.

[Stabby]

I've played some of 1, almost all of 3, the very beginning of 2, and about 3/4ths of the way through 5.

1 and 5 were dropped when it turned out I had missed a character. The biggest problem the series has is easily the random encounters-- which is why I can never again play 5. 3 had the best rates, IMO, without having played too much of 2 or 4.

Can't wait for 6.

[Kyoujin]

I've played some of 1, almost all of 3, the very beginning of 2, and about 3/4ths of the way through 5.

1 and 5 were dropped when it turned out I had missed a character. The biggest problem the series has is easily the random encounters-- which is why I can never again play 5. 3 had the best rates, IMO, without having played too much of 2 or 4.

Can't wait for 6.

Is there any information on 6 yet?

[Aion]

Me too, I'm playing it as I type this actually. Fans of 2 and people not so fond of 3 NEED to play V. It is the 3D incarnation and first real spiritual successor to the first 2. It also has THE best character designs and the best translation in the whole series.
The character designs are definately amazing. I also find the voice acting in this game to be one of the best. I'd normally want Japanese voices over English voices, but this is one of the first times that I would prefer the English voices absolutely.

[spudlyff8fan]

skip 3 and 4, its not worth your time.

:confused:

Suiko 3 is so much better than 5, it's not even funny. Suikoden 5 has some seriously badass characters, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty lazily put together game. Aesthetically, it's easily the worst in the series.

[-=KOH=-]

I felt like the story from the first two games dissolved in 3, I haven't play any of the series after 3, and I never finished 3 either. Something about it bothered me.

i'll probably beat it now though, since my room mate owns it.

[GC!?]

Played and beat 1 and 2 with all 108 Stars of Destiny the FIRST time through, which was pretty hard :(

Luca Blight is the most badass villian in any video game IMO.


How much damage did he take before he FINALLY died?

1. First assault of arrows, got shot by one arrow
2. Fought first group of 6 people
3. Fought second group of 6
4. Fought third group of 6
5. Gets shot by about 3-4 more arrows
6. Duels with Riou/leader

Am I correct?

The fact he went through ALL THAT and still had the strength to talk shit at the very end..just badass.

I plan on playing 3 and 5 sometime soon.

Ive heard that 4 wasn't worth playing at all, is this true? Is it really that bad?

[Mr. Bastos]

Played and beat 1 and 2 with all 108 Stars of Destiny the FIRST time through, which was pretty hard :(

Luca Blight is the most badass villian in any video game IMO.


How much damage did he take before he FINALLY died?

1. First assault of arrows, got shot by one arrow
2. Fought first group of 6 people
3. Fought second group of 6
4. Fought third group of 6
5. Gets shot by about 3-4 more arrows
6. Duels with Riou/leader

Am I correct?

The fact he went through ALL THAT and still had the strength to talk shit at the very end..just badass.

I plan on playing 3 and 5 sometime soon.

Ive heard that 4 wasn't worth playing at all, is this true? Is it really that bad?

4 was pretty bad but you might wanna play it just to say you have...

[eddymasta]

I've played some of 1, almost all of 3, the very beginning of 2, and about 3/4ths of the way through 5.

1 and 5 were dropped when it turned out I had missed a character. The biggest problem the series has is easily the random encounters-- which is why I can never again play 5. 3 had the best rates, IMO, without having played too much of 2 or 4.

Can't wait for 6.

5 IS pretty bad with the random encounters because of the horrible load time, but the series as a whole doesn't push random battles on you to hard imo. The Let go option is great for when you're lazy and don't feel like wasting time. I know there's a rune that lowers random encounters with weak enemies as well.

[Fin.K.M]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who used Cecile in S3. She's not very mobile, has average speed, and she doesn't get as many swings as Juan or Emily but she can equip heavy armor and she actually hits pretty fucking hard. My Hugo, Juan and Emily all have either Killer or Fury runes attached but Cecile's individual swings still hit harder. Her overall damage is still lower, though. (Unless she crits a few times...)

Cecile was a monstrous tank, since you can get her (I believe) to S rank shield and if you gave her the firefly rune, attacks would bounce right off her.
Actually Cecile doesn't get any open rune slots, which really hurts her damage-dealing potential. :sad:

yeah she was really good, though my main team was Hugo/Fubar, Juan/Emily, Mua/Nei. I gave Mua firefly and haziness runes. Hugo/Fubar just beat shit up same with Juan/Emily and Nei chanted madness song since she was the best with the jongleur. Juan/Emily's team attack was too fuckin good especially with madness song going. thats how I managed to kill the last boss so easily.
Hugo Juan Emily Nei = Big 4 of Suikoden 3?

I don't really like magic users in Suikoden but Nei is so good. Most people already know how awesome her Jongleur rune is - crazy buffs that don't cost MP - but she's also a good choice for a healer since she gets A rank Water Magic and a lot of MP. Her S rank Magic Resistance is useful for the final boss and her physical damage isn't too shabby either (B+ Swing) so I like to have her attack when I'm feeling lazy.

-----

Anyone know which characters are considered top tier in Suikoden 1? I feel like playing it again.

[FallingEdge]

I'm playing the shit out of Suikoden 2 atm. Currently at Greenwood Village and about to enroll in the academy.

[ytwojay]

Am I going to miss out on much if I skip Suikoden 1 and go straight to 2?

[eddymasta]

Am I going to miss out on much if I skip Suikoden 1 and go straight to 2?

Playing the original first isn't required, but it'll increase your enjoyment of 2 a LOT

[-=KOH=-]

Not really, but kind of, I'd say it's probably better to play 2 then 1.

[Mr. Bastos]

Am I going to miss out on much if I skip Suikoden 1 and go straight to 2?

not really, since the stories aren't connected, but there are a bunch of returning characters so it's nice to see a bunch of familiar faces. plus if you get all 108 in 1 you can import the save to get a special character in 2, and he's pretty damn good.

[ytwojay]

Playing the original first isn't required, but it'll increase your enjoyment of 2 a LOT
Gah, now I have to go track down a copy ;_;

[Kyoujin]

Now I'm trying to remember as much of the cast as possible from 3; how does Fred stack up against the other characters. I seem to vaguely recall that he was rather strong, but he lacked something; I think it was his rune slots, but I could be wrong.

[Stabby]

The problem with 3 was that it took too long to get started. The story was actually really good once you reach the point that the characters began to intersect and you had real story advancement-- but until then, it was playing through 3 introductions in a row.

Emily and Juan were in their own tier. Then came mounted Hugo, then came whoever else.

Is Yuber even in 5?

Anyway, what really irked me about the random encounters was the let-go option. Why not just let me avoid the encounters entirely, instead of giving me the option to run away 100% of the time? It was a little annoying, extra-especially since after a point enemies stopped giving experience at all. It was a little more than average in 1, very low in 3 (which was great), and fucking absurd in 5-- it was the only complaint I had about the game.

The only thing I've heard about 6 so far are rumours. I think that the main director of the series isn't working on the 6th game, though, and someone else at Konami is taking the helm.



As for 4....
http://suikosource.com/

I just used that to read about it. The game does sound interesting, but the execution makes it sound even more tedious than 5 to get through.

Also!

All the titties in 5 are huge. ALL of them.

[Herny]

holy shit, this thread is top tier!

I'll post later about my suikoden exp

Edit:
So yea, I've beaten 1, 2, as well as 3. Have never touched 4,5 but I do plan to.
I also need to finish Tactics, which I like as well!

I do suggest playing S1 before S2, because that way, you'd get to load McDohl onto S2, which is fucking beastly. Riou + McDohl's combo thing is really godly

[Lucretz]

Also!

All the titties in 5 are huge. ALL of them.


... so Suikoden 5, it is then.
:wgrin:

[Kyoujin]

The problem with 3 was that it took too long to get started. The story was actually really good once you reach the point that the characters began to intersect and you had real story advancement-- but until then, it was playing through 3 introductions in a row.

Emily and Juan were in their own tier. Then came mounted Hugo, then came whoever else.

Is Yuber even in 5?

Anyway, what really irked me about the random encounters was the let-go option. Why not just let me avoid the encounters entirely, instead of giving me the option to run away 100% of the time? It was a little annoying, extra-especially since after a point enemies stopped giving experience at all. It was a little more than average in 1, very low in 3 (which was great), and fucking absurd in 5-- it was the only complaint I had about the game.

The only thing I've heard about 6 so far are rumours. I think that the main director of the series isn't working on the 6th game, though, and someone else at Konami is taking the helm.



As for 4....
http://suikosource.com/

I just used that to read about it. The game does sound interesting, but the execution makes it sound even more tedious than 5 to get through.

Also!

All the titties in 5 are huge. ALL of them.

Haha, the tits comment is very true; if I read correctly, the director of 1-3 left after 3 was completed, although I could be mistaken.

1 and 2 had the easiest end bosses; you can usually kill them within one turn, if you've created your party correctly.

I'm still enjoying 4 so far; I'm about 8 hours in, and still the only tediuom is the world map, and nothing else.

EDIT: Nope, Yuber is not in 5.

[ytwojay]

Does anyone know of a PSX emulator that runs isos at full speed?

[Stabby]

PSXe, I think.

[Ouroborus]

:confused:

Suiko 3 is so much better than 5, it's not even funny. Suikoden 5 has some seriously badass characters, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty lazily put together game. Aesthetically, it's easily the worst in the series.

wrong like always.

how the is suikoden 3 better? the story, music, graphics and gameplay is inferior to suikoden 5. do you really find it fun to walk through the mountain paths and plains for countless hours? i dont see whats so good about emo lucs story either.

i really hope you are joking if you think that suikoden 3 is aesthetically better looking. either that or you are blind.

[Kyoujin]

The only thing wrong with 5 (technically) is the issue with load times; which, in reality isn't dreadful, but bothersome.
Personally, I find the castle to be a little too expansive sometimes; but that's just me.

[Mixah]

Suikoden 1 and then 2...... This way you can import your 1 character into the second for a more enjoyable experience.

3's final boss was fucking hard... I had a rough time with my characters at level 80.

[Mr. Bastos]

Suikoden 1 and then 2...... This way you can import your 1 character into the second for a more enjoyable experience.

3's final boss was fucking hard... I had a rough time with my characters at level 80.

really? what was your team? cuz Hugo/Fubar and Juan/Emily with Nei chanting Madness song = disgusting damage.

[Mixah]

LAWL! dude, i don't remember. The last time I played Suikoden 3 was the week after it was released. It took me the whole week to get 108 stars + all the bonus characters.

[Kyoujin]

I just got a character in IV that is similar to Juan: Ornan.

He too has the Waking Rune, but as of this point, there is no way to rememdy that situation.

Couldn't you equip a rune on Juan, or some other tactic that made him wake up after awhile?

[Mr. Bastos]

I just got a character in IV that is similar to Juan: Ornan.

He too has the Waking Rune, but as of this point, there is no way to rememdy that situation.

Couldn't you equip a rune on Juan, or some other tactic that made him wake up after awhile?

for juan I equipped some armor that made him immune to sleep, I didn't use ornan though, but you can probably do something similar

[Kyoujin]

Good idea, thanks for advice:tup:

[ToyRobotTerror]

So i´m playing 2 again and i wonder if sid is usable? havent really used him because of his waking rune.

[Kyoujin]

I never used Sid; there are just too many people that are better than him.

[ToyRobotTerror]

Yeah its just that i like to fuck around with midtier and lowtier chars.

[Eminent]

I dont play Suikoden, but my friend had my watch the opening to the 3rd one and while its nice... He ruined it for me by saying, "hey listen, doesnt it sound like shes saying "Aquaman loves Aquaman"? So now everytime I hear the opening song, its pretty much ruined =\

BTW isnt the 4th game supposedly a POS release compared to first 3?

[Darkstalker]

I dont play Suikoden, but my friend had my watch the opening to the 3rd one and while its nice... He ruined it for me by saying, "hey listen, doesnt it sound like shes saying "Aquaman loves Aquaman"? So now everytime I hear the opening song, its pretty much ruined =\

BTW isnt the 4th game supposedly a POS release compared to first 3?

4 in all actuality is very similar to the first two. Similar battle system, similar story narration style, in fact about the only real departure is the traveling system (which, in theory, sounded good but in practicality was boring and cumbersome).

I'm not saying it's all that great, but it is quite mediocre.

Then again, so are most of the Suikoden games.

Except Tactics (wants there to be more Tactics spinoffs in Suikoden). =D

[Mixah]

The ninjas in Suikoden 2 owned everything.

[Kabuki Klash]

4 was also bad because it's too damn short, moving is too damn tedious and the characters are 80% damn boring and dumb. You can see how this affected 5, for instance: almost every character has an unique and not straightforward way of recruiting him/her (Oboro, Shigure, Sagiri and Nakula especially.)

Darkstalker, how was Tactics? It's the only one I never played (backlog'd)

Kyoujin, in Vinay del Zexay Item Shop they sell the Yellow Scarf, an accessory that protects from all status ailments...it's got a decent defense boost too.

[eddymasta]

I dont play Suikoden, but my friend had my watch the opening to the 3rd one and while its nice... He ruined it for me by saying, "hey listen, doesnt it sound like shes saying "Aquaman loves Aquaman"? So now everytime I hear the opening song, its pretty much ruined =\



rofl, I think you just ruined it for me also.

[Ephidel]

Haven't picked up an Suikoden title in a long time. I think the best was two, sure others would probably agree.

Last one I played was 4. Yeah, it's just like Klash said. It's slow and stupid, and the plot is god awful. It's like the main character doesn't know that he/she is suppose to be the MAIN CHARACTER lol.

[Kyoujin]

4 was also bad because it's too damn short, moving is too damn tedious and the characters are 80% damn boring and dumb. You can see how this affected 5, for instance: almost every character has an unique and not straightforward way of recruiting him/her (Oboro, Shigure, Sagiri and Nakula especially.)

Darkstalker, how was Tactics? It's the only one I never played (backlog'd)

Kyoujin, in Vinay del Zexay Item Shop they sell the Yellow Scarf, an accessory that protects from all status ailments...it's got a decent defense boost too.

Thanks for the tip:tup:

[Son Them All]

As long as we're talkin about broken, man is Richard out of control in V. He can parry practically anything and respond with a hit of his own. He crits and double crits on a regular basis and tends to do multiple strings alot sometimes for 1K damage or more. And damn, for him to be so gay, I simply MUST have him in my party at times. Belcoot and Hizuki are up there but still not on Richard's level.

And motherFUCK what they did to Killey. He used to have those cool ass stick things that he knocked your ass out with, but now he simply has a needle he throws....WHAT? After all the effort it takes to get Killey, I wanted him to own niggas asses for free. Meh, atleast he's a good magic user.

[Kabuki Klash]

^^ Worse thing is, he already was a good magic user (3 FREE rune slots). He got nerfed in 5...at least he's got lots more of screen time, but meh.

I remember I brought Richard to the final battle...he and magic don't get along, do they. I couldn't even keep him alive:rofl:

In the Suikoden World, I have never seen such a display of brokenness:

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2407/killeydf0.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/my.php?image=killeydf0.jpg)

[Stabby]

Viki was damn strong in 5.

[Son Them All]

Cathari + Killer Rune = retarded nice I recently discovered. Gun in a sword battle for the fuggin win.

[Ouroborus]

4 was extremely rushed and the only way to get full enjoyment out of that game is to also play suikoden tactics.

mizuki looks exactly like jill valentine. and flare resembles claire redfield.

[Mr. Bastos]

4 was also bad because it's too damn short, moving is too damn tedious and the characters are 80% damn boring and dumb. You can see how this affected 5, for instance: almost every character has an unique and not straightforward way of recruiting him/her (Oboro, Shigure, Sagiri and Nakula especially.)

Darkstalker, how was Tactics? It's the only one I never played (backlog'd)

Kyoujin, in Vinay del Zexay Item Shop they sell the Yellow Scarf, an accessory that protects from all status ailments...it's got a decent defense boost too.

yeah yellow scarf, I just checked my old S3 save and that whats I used for Juan.

[Darkstalker]

Darkstalker, how was Tactics? It's the only one I never played (backlog'd)

I thought Tactics was great. One of the few underrated gems on PS2. It continues off Suikoden IV though, so you might not really like that as far as story goes (but I've never been a big fan of the stories, so I was alright with it).

What really made it stand out to me was the gameplay. It plays like a normal SRPG, with a few differences. One,w hile you have an on-screen character limit, you can switch characters in and out (ala FFX, except only once a battle). This means you technically have reserves, if you realy get screwed over. And another, and more important feature, is the elemental terrain. Think Disgaea's funny ground thingies which I forgot the name of, and you've got the idea, except here it's elementals, and it is all based on everyone's affinity. A big chunk of the gameplay revolves manipulating the elementals to your favour, like to weaken a tank to allow you to do decent damage to the unit. Thing is, the enemies will also be abusing elementals to their favour, so suddenly turn order is also exceedingly important. That's about the main thing that separates it from other SRPGs, but it's so well done that I believe it adds a lot to the gameplay.

Also, I've never been a fan of traditional world maps and the like, so I like the menu based travelling system this used (which, in hindsight, probably should've been used in Suikoden IV since they screwed it up). Also, getting characters isn't really all that OMG WHAT DO I DO that it is sometimes in other Suikodens.

Highly recommended.

Plot? I forgot. If you're a plot man, I guess you should forget it.

[spudlyff8fan]

The battle system ends up being this remedial land-grab where characters go from being incredible to awful if the square they're on turns the wrong color.

And yeah, the story just is silly. And not in a good way.

[Kyoujin]

Finally got my base; and Leknaat didn't even give me a Tablet of Stars. Apparently, I just have one? Kind of silly, unless she offically gives it to me later.
After I'm finished with IV, I'm going to play 3 again because it was sweet. I found it wierd that it was the only story that had the characters saving the world as a whole, as opposed to just two nations going to war.

Oh, and I forgot to mention this before, but I missed a shitload of characters in 5.

[Kabuki Klash]

Thanks for the review, Darkstalker...sounds awfully deep (the battle system) for a Suikoden...if the plot isn't as lame as 4, I'm all for it.

Kyoujin, I don't think there's a tablet in 4...the guy who lets you change party has the list, and that's it...right?

What's everyone preferred tactician, from any of the games? For me, it's

Lucretia>Mathiu>Shu>Albert>drunkard from 4(even forgot the name...)

[kane_warhead]

not really, since the stories aren't connected, but there are a bunch of returning characters so it's nice to see a bunch of familiar faces. plus if you get all 108 in 1 you can import the save to get a special character in 2, and he's pretty damn good.


You need to play Suikoden 1. Since it start the chracters that are seen through out the series like Leknaat etc.

[Mixah]

what were the two dragoon's names? i forget it's been so damn long..

and the octopus in the second.

[ToyRobotTerror]

what were the three dragoon's names? i forget it's been so damn long..

and the octopus in the second.
Joshua, Futch and Milia

Abizboah cant remember the name of his wife and kid.

EDIT:Rulodia and Chuchaura

[Mixah]

ahh yeah, that's right! thanks

I don't remember Mila though. What game? I've only played up to 3. I started four, and got bored of it, and was gravely dissappointed.

[ToyRobotTerror]

ahh yeah, that's right! thanks

I don't remember Mila though. What game? I've only played up to 3. I started four, and got bored of it, and was gravely dissappointed.
suikoden 1, shes the female dragoon you have with you when you go up in those mountains looking for that herb/flower/whatever liukan needs for the antidote

[Mixah]

OHHHHHHHH I remember that bitch. Yeah, that shit was ANNOYING AS FUCK

[Kyoujin]

I have to keep playing that crazy bitches game in 4?!
Great.

[Kyoujin]

The character that runs the training hall is telling me that I don't have enough people to train; do I just need to recruit more people? I just recruited Kika and company, if that helps.

[Mr. Bastos]

The character that runs the training hall is telling me that I don't have enough people to train; do I just need to recruit more people? I just recruited Kika and company, if that helps.

I just read an faq and it says you need at least 29 people

[Kyoujin]

Thanks, Bas:tup:

So far in 4, there haven't been alot of great magic users; The elven girl is an exception, as is the main of course, but aside from those two, Pablo has been the only one good enough, but his power is very low. I need another sage, or atleast another powerhouse.
I have this one girl who is very powerful (I can't remember her name) but aside from that, my party isn't too stacked.
I'm using Main, elf, power chick, and Kika; Kika is average. The only redeeming quality she has is a high skill level and her Falcon rune; her defense is good, but her magic blows.

[Mr. Bastos]

Thanks, Bas:tup:

So far in 4, there haven't been alot of great magic users; The elven girl is an exception, as is the main of course, but aside from those two, Pablo has been the only one good enough, but his power is very low. I need another sage, or atleast another powerhouse.
I have this one girl who is very powerful (I can't remember her name) but aside from that, my party isn't too stacked.
I'm using Main, elf, power chick, and Kika; Kika is average. The only redeeming quality she has is a high skill level and her Falcon rune; her defense is good, but her magic blows.

NP, dude. I used, Hero, Ted, Jeane and Gau. Hero is decent with magic but Jeane if I remember was pretty good with magic like third best for stats and MP and Ted was probably second best, plus he has soul eater which is awesome. and I liked Gau because he the highest health and speed in the game, plus he was near the top for defense and strength. though I did get them to lvl 99, using the training room

Also I remember a lot of people using kika and snowe a lot because they were really strong, though I never did use them. peoples parties always had ted in it though, we was just really fuckin good,

[Kyoujin]

I really like the idea of the Training ground; not once have I levelled up beyond 60 or so in any Suikoden; it's really time consuming, more-so than most rpg's.

[Mr. Bastos]

I really like the idea of the Training ground; not once have I levelled up beyond 60 or so in any Suikoden; it's really time consuming, more-so than most rpg's.

yeah same here, this was the first suikoden in which I got my characters to 99. its cool too cuz the "enemies" levels are based in the hero's level. a tip is to equip for characters to make them quick as fuck, and characters who are in reserve teams dont show up so use that to your advantage too, take out characters that are really quick or that have strong defense or high hp. it'll make shit a lot easier. I think there is an faq on getting characters to 99, in which it talks about this stuff.

[ShinjiGohan]

there isn't much secret to getting chars to 99 in 4. Send in the hero by himself and do a couple runs. After a few you'll be at 99, then send in another character and let your hero do all the work.

it sucks that you can't get the trainer to 99 though using this way...

[Mr. Bastos]

there isn't much secret to getting chars to 99 in 4. Send in the hero by himself and do a couple runs. After a few you'll be at 99, then send in another character and let your hero do all the work.

it sucks that you can't get the trainer to 99 though using this way...

yeah i know there isnt a secret but there are things you can do to make it easier. like some of the stuff I said. cuz if you have a lvl 99 hero and bring in levels 30ish people if your opponents attack first they're dead.

[Return of Shiki]

I told myself I would never talk about Suikoden on this site until I finished all the games (to avoid spoilers).

Whelp, I just finished Suikoden V last night. I've seen everything S1-S5/Tactics have to offer. So...now what?

God Tier--
Suiko 2

Top--
Suiko 5
Suiko 1

Upper-
Suiko 3

*GAP*

Low-
Suiko 4
Suiko Tactics

[GC!?]

I would say wait for Suikoden 6 but who knows if the game even exists? Its been 2 years since S5, its about time we heard something from Konami. They have yet to announce anything about it, and fans have only been speculating and throwing around rumors.


I still need to play Suikoden 3, but instead I've just been reading the manga. Suikoden 4 seems to be the black sheep of the series and I don't know when I'll ever get to it. Suikoden Tactics is one I'll probably play sometime soon.

[Return of Shiki]

Suikoden Tactics is probably my biggest gaming disappointment of the decade, maybe tied with New Super Mario Bros and SNK Vs. Capcom Card Fighters DS.

Who in the hell thought that spending half a fight color-coding the battlefield was a wonderful idea???

[Mr. Bastos]

I would say wait for Suikoden 6 but who knows if the game even exists? Its been 2 years since S5, its about time we heard something from Konami. They have yet to announce anything about it, and fans have only been speculating and throwing around rumors.


I still need to play Suikoden 3, but instead I've just been reading the manga. Suikoden 4 seems to be the black sheep of the series and I don't know when I'll ever get to it. Suikoden Tactics is one I'll probably play sometime soon.

I hope there is a suikoden 6. Suikoden has become one of my favorite series' along with FF and the "Tales of" series'.

As for 4, yeah it was pretty bad but I finished it without too much trouble and tactics was just a continuation of 4's story so I never finished it, though I should.

[GC!?]

Suikoden Tactics is probably my biggest gaming disappointment of the decade, maybe tied with New Super Mario Bros and SNK Vs. Capcom Card Fighters DS.

Who in the hell thought that spending half a fight color-coding the battlefield was a wonderful idea???

:lol: Sounds dumb, but is it really that bad? Tactical RPGs are pretty much my favorite, and Suikoden is one of my favorite RPG series, and I figure slapping them together would've been nice, but apparently not.

Oh and personally, I like Suikoden WAY more than FF, and I grew up on FF. The Tales of series I can't say much on because I only beat Phantasia.

[Return of Shiki]

I love Tactical RPGs, too, and Suikoden is probably my favorite RPG series but...Suiko Tactics wasn't even close to what it SHOULD have been. Obviously, the game had a much lower budget than the mainstream games but that's no excuse.
I'd say play it yourself and make your own judgement about it, however. One plus to the game is that it actually fleshes out S4 quite a bit more.

FF (not to mention Square-Enix in general) has lost its soul to me. The last FF I honestly and deeply LOVED was FF Tactics, which was 11 years ago.
S2 is still the peak of the series for me, but S5 restored all of my faith which was questioned after two mediocre games.

Not that S5 didn't have its rough bumps and ugly flaws...oh no.

[Mr. Bastos]

I love Tactical RPGs, too, and Suikoden is probably my favorite RPG series but...Suiko Tactics wasn't even close to what it SHOULD have been. Obviously, the game had a much lower budget than the mainstream games but that's no excuse.
I'd say play it yourself and make your own judgement about it, however. One plus to the game is that it actually fleshes out S4 quite a bit more.

FF (not to mention Square-Enix in general) has lost its soul to me. The last FF I honestly and deeply LOVED was FF Tactics, which was 11 years ago.
S2 is still the peak of the series for me, but S5 restored all of my faith which was questioned after two mediocre games.

Not that S5 didn't have its rough bumps and ugly flaws...oh no.

That's what I was thinking when I bought Suiko Tactics, but I didn't like the whole elemental grid thingy and never really played too far int to. I should just to see what it add to the S4 story. and I was glad that S5 was good, because S4 was bad and S3 was decent.

and I totally agree on FF, and Square in general, having "lost it's soul". The series was my first and that's probably why it's still one of my favorites but lately they just haven't been amazing, though I did like XII it isn't as good as IV or VI were. Suikoden is definitely tied for my top series'.

[Kyoujin]

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life:tup:

I've only got 1 and 2 over here in England, but in about a months time, I'll have my collection back. I think I'll finally beat 5, or maybe start up 3 again.

[Lucretz]

I haven't really played anything past I & II, and I guess I'm happy for it, cuz the later ones look pretty trash.

I rented 4, maybe, and played it for like four-five hours and was bored to death with it. I also bought Tactics for like seven dollars, but was so disappointed with it I kind of tried to block the whole thing out. What a piece of shit.

[Serpent]

How did I never see this thread before?

On first playthroughs, Suiko I and II are pretty far ahead of the rest of the series. But III gets itself into that tier too just because of how much there is in it, and how much you can do. You can farm Fury runes and create a lot of combinations of viable teams. I remember making a list of who I thought was best for water/shield as well, and that's pretty much all you need. For some characters, you can give them Fury, Warrior and Double Strike, and they'll do stupid amounts of damage, although I don't really like the Double Strike rune in that game.

4 is the worst but 5 is not much better. 3 is the last great one. Probably because the creator took off in the middle of it out of anger at what they were doing to his beloved series. Whenever anybody does that, it usually means the series is going to become trash.

I think the system is the deepest and most fun in 3, although it would have benefitted greatly by ditching the pairs system. It'd be pretty much perfect that way. Just add more stuff into the game (it was pretty short), add more runes that actually do better things, just a few minor tweaks and you've got an absolute masterpiece.

[Soul Bushido]

To me, the Suiko series has only really had two solid games but they were so memorable it makes up for the lackluster nature of the series as a whole. Suikoden II is my favorite game of the series, and save for Xenogears is my favorite PSone RPG (that genre had a LOT of competition back in the day), so imagine my disappointment when I played Suiko III. III had a pretty cool story and approach to telling it but the extreme departure from gameplay staples and WEIRD character models made it hard to stay into. It was frustrating because the character designs in III are some of the best that I've seen but the models were fat and clunky.

From then on I expected Konami to fuck up the 3D iterations of the series, until I got my hands on V. Suiko V is the only game that should even be mentioned in the same breath as II and I believe it to be just as good in many places. A return to the classic gameplay that makes the series what it is, FANTASTIC WRITING (holy shit that was great writing) and it had the most balanced one on one fights I believe the series has had up to this point.

Just my thoughts, but that begs the question....where's VI at?

[Kyoujin]

How did I never see this thread before?

On first playthroughs, Suiko I and II are pretty far ahead of the rest of the series. But III gets itself into that tier too just because of how much there is in it, and how much you can do. You can farm Fury runes and create a lot of combinations of viable teams. I remember making a list of who I thought was best for water/shield as well, and that's pretty much all you need. For some characters, you can give them Fury, Warrior and Double Strike, and they'll do stupid amounts of damage, although I don't really like the Double Strike rune in that game.

4 is the worst but 5 is not much better. 3 is the last great one. Probably because the creator took off in the middle of it out of anger at what they were doing to his beloved series. Whenever anybody does that, it usually means the series is going to become trash.

I think the system is the deepest and most fun in 3, although it would have benefitted greatly by ditching the pairs system. It'd be pretty much perfect that way. Just add more stuff into the game (it was pretty short), add more runes that actually do better things, just a few minor tweaks and you've got an absolute masterpiece.

I have to agree; III was without a doubt one of my most anticapted games ever, and it did not dissappoint. They took the series to a new level, and it orked very well. The fact that you could empathise with all the character while you watched them as a whole, and not just the 'Hero', was just fantastic. Thr roster was huge, and argueably one of the more balanced.

I really enjoyed how the battles were, as they seemed more realistic as opposed to just jumping and swinging.

[Return of Shiki]

III still has my favorite battle system out of the series. Grandia-like time system and individualized skillsets FTW.

Although I hated the fact that you could damage your own teammates with magic, it made sense and added some strategy. I also hated the "buddy system" at first but I got used it eventually.

[Canto]

Suikoden 2 is one of my favorite RPGs ever. Shiro!!!!

Suikoden 1 was fun but not as good as 2. I couldn't play 3 even though I tried more than twice. Never played tactics or 4 and I played a bit of 5 and it reminded me a lot of 1 and 2, but didn't get very far in that game.

[Ouroborus]

i dont get why so many people like suikoden 3 over 5. the story wasnt that great (emo luc), the battle system was pretty simplified from part 2 as you have to fight in pairs and the music and graphics were subpar. there were no memorable tracks and every character looks blocky as hell with their face plastered on.

no overworld map is lame seeing you have to traverse through mountains and plains for like more than half an hour and you dont get the blinking mirror until like near the very end of the game. Your castle remains a rundown shack throughout the whole game because konami got lazy in the graphic design compartment.

Suikoden 5 is plain fuckin awesome. After playing suikoden 3 and 4, I was really put off with the whole series. But right after I got my hands on a copy of Suikoden 5, I was hooked after playing it for 15 mins. Awesome battle system, which is a mix of Suikoden 2 and 3, awesome storyline, awesome characters, awesome music and tons of side quests and tricky character recruitment, which defintely makes up for suikoden 4. I'd rank suikoden 5 the best of the series.

[GC!?]

I liked S5 a lot too. For me its 2 > 5 > 1. One problem though: battles are wayyyyy too easy. Seriously, toss Georg a rune that boosts attack and everything will die. That one chick with the gun also is known for pure murder.

Other than that, I don't really have too much complaints, but I hear getting anything other than the best ending really sucks.

[Darkstalker]

I only like 3 and Tactics.

Any news on Suikoden 6 or anything similar?

[Serpent]

i dont get why so many people like suikoden 3 over 5. the story wasnt that great (emo luc), the battle system was pretty simplified from part 2 as you have to fight in pairs and the music and graphics were subpar. there were no memorable tracks and every character looks blocky as hell with their face plastered on.

no overworld map is lame seeing you have to traverse through mountains and plains for like more than half an hour and you dont get the blinking mirror until like near the very end of the game. Your castle remains a rundown shack throughout the whole game because konami got lazy in the graphic design compartment.

Suikoden 5 is plain fuckin awesome. After playing suikoden 3 and 4, I was really put off with the whole series. But right after I got my hands on a copy of Suikoden 5, I was hooked after playing it for 15 mins. Awesome battle system, which is a mix of Suikoden 2 and 3, awesome storyline, awesome characters, awesome music and tons of side quests and tricky character recruitment, which defintely makes up for suikoden 4. I'd rank suikoden 5 the best of the series.

S5 has a shitty story, shitty one dimensional characters, and a lack of logic. Either you see the plot "twist" coming a mile away, or it's just random, like Sialeeds becoming evil. The villains are cliche and are frankly copies of earlier villains, such as that one ghetto version of Yuber. The game is soulless, has no heart, has no motivation. I don't even remember who the villain was anymore actually. I know there was that Yuber knockoff, and then that druggy guy, and that's about it.

Oh it was that father and son I think, but they sucked and were creepy in a stupid way. Still, I had to think, that is a bad sign.

Also you're complaining about the castle, man, you don't even get the castle in 5 until way late. By the time you get the castle it's not really too much longer until the game ends. Suiko III I guess is similar though in that regard too. Chapters 4 and 5 are extremely short.

I loved the characters in III, they had depth, and each group had their own little approach to things.

As for the music, 5 had a few good tracks, but one was a ripoff from 3 anyway, and 3's battle and boss themes were better, so 3 wins out there too.

As for the graphics, you are just going to hate 5 anyway after the next game comes out with better graphics. What a stupid thing to complain about. 3 is really old, of course the graphics aren't going to be good now. Have you seen FF7? It looks terrible now. What about SF2? Does that suck too because the graphics are bad? What, it magically got better gameplay with the HD update?

[Darkstalker]

I like that Suikoden 3 seems pretty well animated. It's smooth, to say the least. Better than 4 and 5, I thought.

Man, Suikoden 5 has some weird problems. That angle they chose really makes some things obscure. The town and dungeon design are pretty shit too.

And the loading. Why in the world does it have so many loading screens? Couple this with high encounter rate and you've got a game moving at a snail's pace (which is how fast the plot moves, incidentally).

Gahhhh.

[Atomic #]

Bought a copy of Suikoden 2 several years back for 5 dollars. Perfect condition with the case... I think its still the best in the series...

Favorite part of the game:

The Clive storyline where you have to bring him to certain locations and time in search of the traitorous Elza. Given the timing window, it has HARD unless you know how to do the exp. glitch near the beginning of the game. The trick involved pushing the gate open to higher level mob territory and receiving a large level boost for SURVIVING the random encounters.

Level up high enough so when you return to the supposedly newbie area, you can skip all the mob fights and race through dungeons easily. I remember using up so much healing items just to make it to the village / win one fight.

[BudaFuka]

I borrowed a friends copy of Suikoden 2, terrible condition, got all the way up to the mission, where that military strategist dude actually says, "My final mission"...

After he walks offscreen, the scene after that never loads...

[Soul Bushido]

i dont get why so many people like suikoden 3 over 5. the story wasnt that great (emo luc), the battle system was pretty simplified from part 2 as you have to fight in pairs and the music and graphics were subpar. there were no memorable tracks and every character looks blocky as hell with their face plastered on.

no overworld map is lame seeing you have to traverse through mountains and plains for like more than half an hour and you dont get the blinking mirror until like near the very end of the game. Your castle remains a rundown shack throughout the whole game because konami got lazy in the graphic design compartment.

Suikoden 5 is plain fuckin awesome. After playing suikoden 3 and 4, I was really put off with the whole series. But right after I got my hands on a copy of Suikoden 5, I was hooked after playing it for 15 mins. Awesome battle system, which is a mix of Suikoden 2 and 3, awesome storyline, awesome characters, awesome music and tons of side quests and tricky character recruitment, which defintely makes up for suikoden 4. I'd rank suikoden 5 the best of the series.

I feel you 100%, I saw the response to ^ this and I was baffled by it. 5's characters were well designed (best overall DESIGNS of the series), had variety and depth, and GREATLY benefited from the excellent writing.

I gotta say tho, Thomas is, without a doubt, one of the most awesome lovable characters the series has ever seen. I sucked it up and got him to high levels just so I could use him later on. None are worthy of Thomas's awesomeness. It's been so long that I don't remember much of the overall Suiko timeline arc but a sequel needs to have a grown up bad ass Thomas recruitable.

[Serpent]

I like that Suikoden 3 seems pretty well animated. It's smooth, to say the least. Better than 4 and 5, I thought.

Man, Suikoden 5 has some weird problems. That angle they chose really makes some things obscure. The town and dungeon design are pretty shit too.

And the loading. Why in the world does it have so many loading screens? Couple this with high encounter rate and you've got a game moving at a snail's pace (which is how fast the plot moves, incidentally).

Gahhhh.

For most people this doesn't mean anything, but for me it does, the game freezes randomly off HDD, and nobody has figured out how to fix it. I randomly chose to buy the game, and so it didn't really matter for me anyway since I could play off a regular copy, but I much prefer playing off HDD. I mean I COULD still give it a go, but it can freeze whenever. The loading time and encounter rate I forgot, but yes it WAS really bad.

Not IV bad, which was an 8 hour game stretched out to 20-30 through ridiculous encounter rates and slow unskippable voice acting, but still bad. I don't remember if V had skippable voices, and don't feel like checking.

[Return of Shiki]

S5 has a shitty story, shitty one dimensional characters, and a lack of logic. Either you see the plot "twist" coming a mile away, or it's just random, like Sialeeds becoming evil. The villains are cliche and are frankly copies of earlier villains, such as that one ghetto version of Yuber. The game is soulless, has no heart, has no motivation. I don't even remember who the villain was anymore actually. I know there was that Yuber knockoff, and then that druggy guy, and that's about it.

Oh it was that father and son I think, but they sucked and were creepy in a stupid way. Still, I had to think, that is a bad sign.


I wouldn't say S5 has a "shitty" plot...that designation is reserved for Tactics and also 4 to a lesser extent.

I mean "Tactics" plot starts off decently in the prologue, but then what?
A son of a goat-fucker stops a candy-ass senator who's turning people into fish FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION in a worthless land that already got its ass kicked by a bunch of Islander yahoos?

I agree with you that other than Nether Gate (although Childerich was just a weak ass Luca/Yuber doppleganger), the villains in S5 were solely underdeveloped and needed more of an edge. Although...

I mostly feel that way just because they tried to paint the Godwinns as noble but misguided. The worst is at the end at 2 points especially:

1) Marscal appears and says "I MELTED THE GLACIER AND TRIED TO FLOOD THE COUNTRY BUT NOT TO KILL ANYBODY, JUST TO TALK TO YOU HERE BECAUSE I LOVE THIS LAND!" :lovin:

2) You basically get to smile and wave at Gizel, Marscal, Alenia, and Zahhak as they stand arm-in-arm with your dead aunt, mother and father in the great heavenly beyond DESPITE THE FACT THEY BETRAYED AND PLOTTED TO KILL THEM. That would be like The Emperor and Jabba the Hut standing with Obi-Wan and Yoda at the end of Return of Jedi.
To quote Million, "Get out of here with that bullshit"

I have to disagree on Sialeeds though. She wasn't really supposed to be evil, although her melodramatic selling of her "heel turn" was a little cheesy. I actually think she was the deepest character in the game.
I replayed though the most of the prologue--which is MUCH faster in New Game+ since you know where to go, retain your Party SP and inventory, and have a permanant Godspeed Rune for free--and there were a lot of small hints dropped throughout the game about Sialeeds character, some tidbits of NPC dialogue and some subtle lines she says that make a lot more sense once you've played through the game and know her past.

[Ouroborus]

i played suikoden 3 when it was first released and the game looked like shit back then compared to other rpgs released from its time.

suikoden 3 should have stayed 2D if it looked that bad. they fixed that and went back to the 2D design for the buildings in suikoden 5.

[FatalFuryD]

I have S3, I think Chris and Geddoe are badasses. I never cared to finish it before for some reason, I guess it's because I finished reading the comic before halfway point of the game. I think the special moves look almost as retarded as xenosaga's, but other than that I like it okay. I like how they put in random boss level monsters in a regular field, so even when I'm power leveled it doesn't lose the challenge. Since some of you like it I guess I should get around to finish it.