Is there a Dragon Ball Z thread? If not...

[BunnyHead]

Does anyone know when the special will be translated into english ??

Oh yeah one thing that's been bugging me, how old is Tarble supposed to be??
if he's Vegeta's younger brother shouldnt he been around Goku's age ? It seems like he's alot younger.

[Rhio2k]

Does anyone know when the special will be translated into english ??

Oh yeah one thing that's been bugging me, how old is Tarble supposed to be??
if he's Vegeta's younger brother shouldnt he been around Goku's age ? It seems like he's alot younger.

I think it'll be a long time before the english va's get a chance to shit on it. And Taberu probably seems really young cuz he's super-short (he's a runt, even compared to Vegeta), and not muscular (no fighting ability = doing nothing to develop his build, unlike the other saiya-jin, who got buff by fighting hard, taking lots of damage, and eating large amounts afterwards...extreme bodybuilding, I guess). Taberu was probably born weak and sickly, with low expectations for survival even to toddler stage. I bet the only reason he wasn't killed in the cradle was because he was royalty. I would say he's maybe 4 or so years younger (maybe even only 2 years younger). More than likely born quite a while before Freeza sent Vegeta on his final mission before destroying Planet Vegeta, since Vegeta had prior knowledge of his existence. Vegeta mentioned having to save his ass "just like always", so I'll guess he had to keep the other kids off Taberu's ass.

[Ki Shima]

Thread deserves a bump since the DBZ Special is out.

Now onto character power level discussion. Up to the end of the Cell Games I think it's pretty clear who's stronger than who, but things get a little cloudy during the Buu Saga. Here's a rankings list of who I believe to be the strongest characters during this time:

Vegetto
Super Buu + Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan
Super Buu + Gotenks, Piccolo
Gohan after power up aka Mystic Gohan
Super Buu + Goten, Trunks, Piccolo
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Buu
Fat Buu (First Buu who showed up).
SSJ3 Goku
Kid Buu
Skinny/Evil Buu
SSJ2 Vegeta
Mr. Boo (The Good Buu who fights Kid Buu)

Reasoning: I put Fat Buu above Kid Buu because we never actually get to see Fatty fight at full strength whereas Kid Buu fought at full power the entire time. Hence why he's referred to as the most dangerous. The Fat Buu (Mr. Boo) who fights Kid Buu is not the same Fat Buu who fought Vegeta/Goku on Earth and the one who killed Babidi. That Fat Buu separated into good and evil versions and as a result became a lot weaker.

As for Goku below Fat Buu. The dub had Goku say to Piccolo that he could've beaten Buu but wanted the kids to learn fusion and protect the Earth, but in the manga Goku just says he doesn't think he would've won, even if he fought all out.

Vegeta's above Mr. Boo because well, after getting his ass kicked numerous times, receiving subsequent heals as well as getting resurrected, I think Vegeta's power had increased enough that he could have taken a weaker version of Fat Buu.

i'd say goku was stronger but felt he might lose cos he didn't have long in that form, if buu's pwer actually decresed it would be another story

i dont remember anything indicating that fat buu got weaker when he split with evil buu BUT judging by kame and piccolo's split i guess it did happen that way

and is this judging from the buu saga or the end of DBZ?? if it's the end you may need to re arrange a few things

[Ho0v-Man]

Not exactly an epic special, but it makes sense when you think about it. I've always wondered how they could keep finding stuff significantly stronger than Frieza if he ruled the universe forever. You'd think eventually that stuff would come down trying to kick everyone's ass that Tien could take on by himself. He's the strongest human and they've proven that the humans could take on the Ginyu force years ago.

[TheSix]

Thread deserves a bump since the DBZ Special is out.

Now onto character power level discussion. Up to the end of the Cell Games I think it's pretty clear who's stronger than who, but things get a little cloudy during the Buu Saga. Here's a rankings list of who I believe to be the strongest characters during this time:

Vegetto
Super Buu + Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, Gohan
Super Buu + Gotenks, Piccolo
Gohan after power up aka Mystic Gohan
Super Buu + Goten, Trunks, Piccolo
SSJ3 Gotenks
Super Buu
Fat Buu (First Buu who showed up).
SSJ3 Goku
Kid Buu
Skinny/Evil Buu
SSJ2 Vegeta
Mr. Boo (The Good Buu who fights Kid Buu)

Reasoning: I put Fat Buu above Kid Buu because we never actually get to see Fatty fight at full strength whereas Kid Buu fought at full power the entire time. Hence why he's referred to as the most dangerous. The Fat Buu (Mr. Boo) who fights Kid Buu is not the same Fat Buu who fought Vegeta/Goku on Earth and the one who killed Babidi. That Fat Buu separated into good and evil versions and as a result became a lot weaker.

As for Goku below Fat Buu. The dub had Goku say to Piccolo that he could've beaten Buu but wanted the kids to learn fusion and protect the Earth, but in the manga Goku just says he doesn't think he would've won, even if he fought all out.

Vegeta's above Mr. Boo because well, after getting his ass kicked numerous times, receiving subsequent heals as well as getting resurrected, I think Vegeta's power had increased enough that he could have taken a weaker version of Fat Buu.

Just goes to show how much of a train wreck/cluster fuck the Buu saga was.

[ReKo]

Awesome new take on the opening, suited the ep much better than We Gotta Power would have done. It was good to hear the soundtrack again too.

I can't believe there was so much Toriyama hate on Vegeta again though: I could handle most of it but having him actually bow to Tarble's freaky-looking wife and say the honour was all his!?!

[GC!?]

About that list...is that in order? Because Kid Buu is significantly stronger than that. Remember when Goku and Vegeta pulled out everyone from Super Buu, Buu went haywire and let off steam, making them back up and saying "If he keeps that up, he'll be stronger than he was before". If they were saying that when Super Buu had all those Z fighters in him, that's saying something.

Also that Kid Buu grabbed the strongest Spirit Bomb ever and was about to throw it back to Goku right near the end. This was after he fought with Vegeta and partially Goku (who was SSJ3 when fighting him IIRC).

But yeah, the Buu saga was a mess.

[BadMojo]

and is this judging from the buu saga or the end of DBZ?? if it's the end you may need to re arrange a few things

Buu Saga. If it was end of DBZ I'd have Goku and Vegeta higher individually. Goku would be higher than Gohan, since Gohan stopped training. Vegeta I'd say would be on par with Fat Buu if not Super Buu.

I would make one edit to that list, Goku slightly above Fat Buu, or maybe equal. This is going by a line said by Goku late in the manga where he told Vegeta he could have beaten Fat Buu. Dunno how accurate the translation is but that's what he said. Maybe Goku's just saying that since he's powered up since he first fought Fat Buu.

GC!? -- But is Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu? Goku and Vegeta were confident they could take Kid Buu without fusing but Goku had admitted Super Buu was still stronger than the two of them. Underestimating Kid Buu due to his smaller stature? Goku and Vegeta are experienced enough not to judge someone by their size, I think they would've learned that after the Cell Juniors. The line you wrote was anime only. I don't think that was ever said in the manga.

Kid Buu's referred to as the most dangerous Buu but most dangerous doesn't mean most powerful. Kid Buu fought recklessly and blew up planets without giving a seconds hesitation. Super Buu and his absorbed forms were intelligent and had pride. They held back their powers because they wanted the challenge of a fight.

The spirit bomb was deflected because Goku was tired after the fight. After his power was restored Goku only needed SS form 1 to finish off Kid Buu.

http://www.mangafox.com and http://www.mangashare.com has DB manga for you guys to read.

EDIT: http://www.mangavolume.com has DB manga as well. Mangashare's site seems to be down.

[ReggieHadoken]

That DB OVA Special was made of win. Vegeta REALLY mellowed out over the past two years. And I love how Goku & Vegeta's rivalry extended to everything. :rofl:

EVERYONE got a chance to show off! Yamcha and Krillin busted out in their old gi's saving people. Stuff was great. And they were all calm and collected, not wetting themselves like during the Cell and Buu arcs. And the redone intro was enough to make me weep. So nostalgic.

[fishjie]

excellent episode

i like how all the z fighters contributed. cant believe vegeta gets cheated at the end and goku saves the day yet again. LAME

btw, the whole saiyans get stronger after they get the shit kicked out of them seemed to have fallen off the wayside after frieza. vegeta kept getting the shit kicked out of him over and over again, but he did not get stronger. at least, they didnt make any mention of it whatsoever. i mean you'd think after vegeta got mauled by kid buu, dende could have healed him, and then he could have whooped on the kid.

[merdoc]

I think Vegetto was prolly the strongest of the buu saga, goku/vegeta fused is too broken.

[Shade]

excellent episode

i like how all the z fighters contributed. cant believe vegeta gets cheated at the end and goku saves the day yet again. LAME

btw, the whole saiyans get stronger after they get the shit kicked out of them seemed to have fallen off the wayside after frieza. vegeta kept getting the shit kicked out of him over and over again, but he did not get stronger. at least, they didnt make any mention of it whatsoever. i mean you'd think after vegeta got mauled by kid buu, dende could have healed him, and then he could have whooped on the kid.

I forgot were I read it, but after becoming a Super Saiyan, that kind of gain (Zenkai(s)) were almost totally removed from their make up. The Super Saiyan form is almost like the end point of the Zenkai system. Of course, base forms still get stronger, but whatever boost they may have got from being healed from near death was either insignificant, or not present at all.

[LeRaldo]

I forgot were I read it, but after becoming a Super Saiyan, that kind of gain (Zenkai(s)) were almost totally removed from their make up. The Super Saiyan form is almost like the end point of the Zenkai system. Of course, base forms still get stronger, but whatever boost they may have got from being healed from near death was either insignificant, or not present at all.

Then why did Goku power up so much after dying while fighting Frieza? The part I'm talking about is when he fell into the lava or whatever, then was resurrected by the dragon balls. This all happened while he was super saiyan, and I thought it was what allowed him to actually overpower Frieza. My memory is kind of fuzzy.

[maxx]

That DB OVA Special was made of win. Vegeta REALLY mellowed out over the past two years. And I love how Goku & Vegeta's rivalry extended to everything. :rofl:

EVERYONE got a chance to show off! Yamcha and Krillin busted out in their old gi's saving people. Stuff was great. And they were all calm and collected, not wetting themselves like during the Cell and Buu arcs. And the redone intro was enough to make me weep. So nostalgic.

krillins wife had that imma fuck u face when he busted out the destructo disk

am i the only one who didnt notice yajarobi at all til he came out slicing shit.

everyone had fucking gis....these poor bastards are like retired super heroes looking for a fight.

lol @ gotenks doing the time warp againnn...using other humans move was dope as hell.

fishjie: i feel like the whole stronger after an asswhooping is tied into the tails. because vegeta was all about the we get stronger after fights more when he first came to earth.

[Shade]

Then why did Goku power up so much after dying while fighting Frieza? The part I'm talking about is when he fell into the lava or whatever, then was resurrected by the dragon balls. This all happened while he was super saiyan, and I thought it was what allowed him to actually overpower Frieza. My memory is kind of fuzzy.

Goku never died while fighting Freeza. And once he went SSJ, he was already powerful enough to end Freeza then and there.

[fishjie]

there was one part where frieza pummeled goku and goku was either passed out or dead.

anyway, thoughts on how strong were the humans by the end of the show?

[maxx]

there was one part where frieza pummeled goku and goku was either passed out or dead.

anyway, thoughts on how strong were the humans by the end of the show?

the end of dbz? or the end of the ova?

[Shade]

there was one part where frieza pummeled goku and goku was either passed out or dead.


Knocked out, sure. But he didn't die.

[ReggieHadoken]

krillins wife had that imma fuck u face when he busted out the destructo disk

am i the only one who didnt notice yajarobi at all til he came out slicing shit.

everyone had fucking gis....these poor bastards are like retired super heroes looking for a fight.

lol @ gotenks doing the time warp againnn...using other humans move was dope as hell.



Krillin has the hottest piece in DB. She probably gave it up to Krillin real good after that save later that night. Krillin's gotta be the strongest human alive if he's taping that. :rofl:

I watched it again and I forgot about Yajarobi slicing stuff up. Even he got some action.

And all of the friends and family were watching the fight like it was some entertainment! Like they ain't seen a good fight in years! Actually, they haven't. Like they were dying inside because of all the peace. :rofl:

I also liked Gotenks doing the other heroes' moves. Dat Wolf Fang fist was tight. He better be packing that and Tien's Volleyball movie in future DBZ games.

[maxx]

gohan with the side coaching was good too. haha he proved he's not that much of dumbass after the cell saga.

[Biolink]

It sucks that DBZ has ended. Kind of wish it was still going

Even though they really began reaching with the Majin Buu saga, it's still DBZ to me. Mid 90's Shounen kicked ass.

Remember Goku vs Vegeta I?

Vegeta was beating the fuck out of Goku. Everything Goku threw out, Vegeta had an answer for. And sorta kinda vice-versa, until Vegeta decided to go Great Ape, and Gorilla pound the fuck out of Goku.

Fights like that one are rare today.

[fishjie]

the end of dbz? or the end of the ova?

the end of dbz

iirc werent yamcha and krillin fighting pikon?

[maxx]

honestly by the end of dbz it was clear krillin was still the most badass human. he didnt pussy out of fights but was the last one to get a beat down everytime the humans threw down. Yamcha,tien and chouzu seemed about the same level.

[Biolink]

I'd probably rank the humans:

Krillin
Tien
Yamcha
Chouzu

Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha are more than likely beyond Frieza level. I just don't like Chouzu's odd against Frieza.

[D'Nyc3]

I'd probably rank the humans:

Krillin
Tien
Yamcha
Chouzu

Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha are more than likely beyond Frieza level. I just don't like Chouzu's odd against Frieza.


Tien would EAT Krillin alive!

[maxx]

lol so yamcha even busted out the old spirit bomb move in the ova. hahaha.....10 e-bucks for the first guy who gets that reference.

[Biolink]

Tien would EAT Krillin alive!

Oops, don't know what I was thinking.

Swap that.

Tien would roll Krillin.

Tien even held up Super Cell for a second IIRC

[D'Nyc3]

Oops, don't know what I was thinking.

Swap that.

Tien would roll Krillin.

Tien even held up Super Cell for a second IIRC


yep.

Krillin barely scratched super cell's armor. :rofl:

[maxx]

yet tien got easily merked by saibamen.

[ElderGOD]

yet tien got easily merked by saibamen.

Tien is the strongest human, but humans can't compare/keep up with saiyans who just keep getting stronger and stronger. Cell and Saibamen are not humans so it's a bad comparison.

lol so yamcha even busted out the old spirit bomb move in the ova. hahaha.....10 e-bucks for the first guy who gets that reference.

What do you mean by reference, as in implying that the spirit ball Yamcha used is similar to Goku's original spirit bomb that Kai first taught him?

[maxx]

Tien is the strongest human, but humans can't compare/keep up with saiyans who just keep getting stronger and stronger. Cell and Saibamen are not humans so it's a bad comparison.



What do you mean by reference, as in implying that the spirit ball Yamcha used is similar to Goku's original spirit bomb that Kai first taught him?

nah back in og dub dbz....goku and the gang went to another dimension to train. they all got their asses whooped by yamcha used that engery ball where he can control the direction and at the time they called it his spirit bomb.

[fishjie]

tien held his own against cell

he also saved gay gohan against super buu by destroying the first of buu's fireballs

i'm more curious whether or not the humans are at least equal to a super saiyan level 1. i'm assuming piccolo definitely is

[ElderGOD]

tien held his own against cell

he also saved gay gohan against super buu by destroying the first of buu's fireballs

i'm more curious whether or not the humans are at least equal to a super saiyan level 1. i'm assuming piccolo definitely is

SSJ greatly increases a saiyan's power level, but you have to remember that zero times a lot is still zero. Still, humans can't compare to the SSJ we have seen so far. Piccolo is a terrible choice to compare to humans because he can permanently fuse (ex: Nails, Kame) to greatly increase his power level. I think Piccolo is definitely stronger than SSJ Goku during Frieza arc, but as Goku gets stronger his SSJ boosts his power level even further (remember SJJ finger vs Trunks :rofl:).

[VG Emblem]

Was Tien really human? Wasn't he like, some demigod or deity or something like that?

And hmm, it's kinda lame that they never came up with any way for humans to get anywhere near as strong as the Saiyans. Even Uub never really got very powerful, despite that being the "plan" near the end of DBZ and his weird way of coming into being. Maybe it's just because GT fucked everything up for the most part, though.

[ElderGOD]

Was Tien really human? Wasn't he like, some demigod or deity or something like that?

And hmm, it's kinda lame that they never came up with any way for humans to get anywhere near as strong as the Saiyans. Even Uub never really got very powerful, despite that being the "plan" near the end of DBZ and his weird way of coming into being. Maybe it's just because GT fucked everything up for the most part, though.

Uub was actually god-like and Goku's training was supposed to teach Uub to learn how to bring out and use his power, but then GT came along and fucked everything up. Although it is important to mention that if saiyans will always get stronger without a limit, then saiyans will be able to potentially surpass anything that has a limit. A big plot hole is that if saiyans know they get stronger as they get injured, then why not constantly abuse the get hurt and then heal cycle?

[Lantis]

A big plot hole is that if saiyans know they get stronger as they get injured, then why not constantly abuse the get hurt and then heal cycle?

Actually, Vegeta tried to exploit just that during the Frieza saga (demanded Krilin to blast him so that Dende could later heal him), but then realized during his battle with Frieza that the whole "injured/healed" power-up thing had its' limits.

[Shade]

Was Tien really human? Wasn't he like, some demigod or deity or something like that?

He has alien origins.

And hmm, it's kinda lame that they never came up with any way for humans to get anywhere near as strong as the Saiyans. Even Uub never really got very powerful, despite that being the "plan" near the end of DBZ and his weird way of coming into being. Maybe it's just because GT fucked everything up for the most part, though.

GT was a mess storyline wise. So i wouldn't get too fussed about that. Uub was able to go back and forth with Base form Goku (in the animation). He was Buu, in all respects. He could have become really strong in time. Probably not even alot of time, since he just kept adapting to fight Goku based on purely watching/imitating what he was doing, and then proceeded to do it with avail.

GT never exploited Uub's potential. Shame really.

SSJ greatly increases a saiyan's power level, but you have to remember that zero times a lot is still zero.

Supposedly, each SSJ form increases the base form's power times 50.

Still, humans can't compare to the SSJ we have seen so far. Piccolo is a terrible choice to compare to humans because he can permanently fuse (ex: Nails, Kame) to greatly increase his power level. I think Piccolo is definitely stronger than SSJ Goku during Frieza arc...

You can't be serious. Piccolo couldn't keep up with Freeza's third form. How in the hell do you figure he could keep up with SSJ Goku, whom killed Freeza in his 4th form? This is the same guy, who pre-SSJ, kept up with fourth form Freeza? Seriously?

At the end of the Freeza arc, Goku was King Shit. No one was even close to him. The only one who was (Freeza), died at his hands. Piccolo could only dream about fighting Goku, and even then Goku would kick his ass in his own dreams.

A big plot hole is that if saiyans know they get stronger as they get injured, then why not constantly abuse the get hurt and then heal cycle?

Those were called Zenkai. I also explained how once they all became Super Saiyan, the Zenkai system kinda stopped. It was like a Saiyan becoming a SSJ was the end means, to the Zenkai powering up system. Also, if you recall, they did indeed abused the shit out of the zenkais during the Freeza arc, especially Goku and Vegeta, Goku went from a scouter reading of 8,000 fighting Vegeta, to a fight with Ginyu at a reading of like, 180,000, and in what, a couple of months?! He was training in that gravity shit, getting tired/hurt, and healing over and over and over.

But also, keep in mind it's not enough to just gain power. You have to learn new techniques, and how to work the new increase in power, hence the training.

[Azrael]

i'm more curious whether or not the humans are at least equal to a super saiyan level 1. i'm assuming piccolo definitely is
I gave this some thought a while ago, and I think what I arrived at is no. No human reached SSJ level by the end of DBZ.

The humans all got rolled by Nappa, who wasn't even shit compared to Vegeta. After the training with Kaio, Tien and Yamucha would maybe be at Saiyajin Saga Vegeta level. Maybe.

Ignore the stupid shit where they beat up the Ginyu Force, that was filler and shouldn't have happened.

Krillin got the Elder Namek's powerup, but considering he didn't get Kaio training, that probably put him a little past Saiyajin Saga Vegeta. Even with that powerup, he still got stomped by Recoome.

Everyone trained for the Cell Games and what not, so maybe Yamucha and Tien surpass Saiyajin Saga Vegeta, with Krillin a bit ahead. Maybe they could have put up a good fight against most of the Ginyu Force, but I think the Cell Saga humans would have gotten rolled by Captain Ginyu.

After the Cell Saga, Yamucha and Krillin stop training, so they peak around there. We can assume Tien spends the entire time from Cell until his appearance in the Buu Saga training, so maybe he would be able to take out the Ginyu Force and give Captain Ginyu a decent fight. Maybe. And that's about it.

Freeza was just so ridiculously overpowered for the time. Like, Toriyama could have nerfed the shit out of Cell and he would have still owned anyone not named Goku or anyone without the ability to go SSJ.

[Syxx573]

gotenks: "ahahahaha"

everyone: "ahaha JA NAI!!"

[The Epidemic]

Actually, Vegeta tried to exploit just that during the Frieza saga (demanded Krilin to blast him so that Dende could later heal him), but then realized during his battle with Frieza that the whole "injured/healed" power-up thing had its' limits.

I dont remember vegeta realizing that. He thought it would make him a super saiyan and was wrong...thats it. The get injured/heal thing worked...just didnt make him stronger than frieza is all.

And remember goku got a maaaaaaaajor power up when he went to fight frieza after healing up.

[semijuggalo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWQ9LRkCYrY <---Maximum the Hormone + DBZ = Frieza is METAL!

[Artayes]

The new anime was great! classic DB style at its finest. sad not to see Tien and Chaotzu in it when EVERYONE else got to appear. But Gotenk's did do one his move's that he contributed to Tien.

[Sonichuman]

nah back in og dub dbz....goku and the gang went to another dimension to train. they all got their asses whooped by yamcha used that engery ball where he can control the direction and at the time they called it his spirit bomb.

Spirit Ball...was pretty sure he was saying spirit ball but it's easy to think he said bomb.

[The Damned]

^ I think you mean "attributed".

I'm Too Slow EDIT: This was at the person above you, Sonichuman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWQ9LRkCYrY <---Maximum the Hormone + DBZ = Frieza is METAL!

That's awesome, which is weird because personally their only other song that I've heard, the one for Deathnote, bugs the shit out of me after a certain point into it.

I think it's probably because the metal is far more sudden in the other song rather than appearing at the beginning here and being maintained all the way through.

If you care about comments on Youtube, then here's a more popular version. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anw6b4Eo6ww&feature=related)

[Rhio2k]

Spirit Ball...was pretty sure he was saying spirit ball but it's easy to think he said bomb.

Sokidan? Controlled ki bullet.

[Sonichuman]

Sokidan? Controlled ki bullet.

talkin bout OG ocean dub and mistakenly hearing Yamcha say 'Spirit Bomb' when i'm pretty sure he's saying or at least supposed to be saying 'Spirit Ball'.

'CHECK OUT MY EXTRA LAAAAARGE SPIRIT BALL!'

Edit:
I don't think any of them are. Then again they sorta held their own against Cell Jrs which they should have been easily killed by the minis.


Theres a few questionable errors with the dbz saga.

lol @ few

[Lvl.3]

Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha are more than likely beyond Frieza level.

I don't think any of them are. Then again they sorta held their own against Cell Jrs which they should have been easily killed by the minis.


Theres a few questionable errors with the dbz saga (anime).

Tao is so awesome. his tongue can bring pleasure...OR DESTRUCTION.

Freeza was such a dick. and so was his family. which makes me wonder, if freeza has a whole family of whatever race he is, then presumably wouldnt there be a planet/area of space inhabited by beings as powerful as freeza?

I was wondering that too. I always thought they made King Cold or whatever his name was a little too weak. Wasn't he in his second form when FT took him out

[Biolink]

I highly doubt Tien would have problems with Final Frieza. He was strong enough put a stranglehold on Super Cell.

I would think Super Cell would be stronger than Final Frieza, because if he wasn't then he would have been killed by one of Saiyans before hand. Just like Trunks rolled Metal Frieza without breaking a sweat.

Being as optimistic as possible I'd say Tien is slightly stronger than Final Frieza, but I can't speak for the rest of the Humans.

(Thinking about it, Super Cell was rolled several times. It looked like he might die before Vegeta decided to help him, by fighting off Trunks and giving Cell enough time to absorb Android 18.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmBlViYtvP4

[Ki Shima]

seriously tien is stronger because of his mad power boosts everytime he returns, he's constantly over shadowed by piccolo, goku and vegeta though.

i dont know if this would be accepted as a gauge but trunks needed to go ssj to stand a chance against tien in the bojack movie.

krillin is nt to far behind though, dont make that mistake. yumucha and the rest are far below.

Goku during the end of dbz i would say he is WAYYYY ahead of mystic gohan. the big hitters of dragon ball are goku, vegeta and Uub


oh yeah and to help gauge strength, i'd say krillin in the buu saga was stronger than frieza

[maxx]

i swear tien has a death wish...if anything krillin is top tier human just cause he's smarter and know how to plan his energy out. tien is always on some kamikazi suicide shit.

NOOOO MY GAY LOVER!!!! -=kamikaze time=-

[Ki Shima]

i swear tien has a death wish...if anything krillin is top tier human just cause he's smarter and know how to plan his energy out. tien is always on some kamikazi suicide shit.

NOOOO MY GAY LOVER!!!! -=kamikaze time=-

i dont know if anyone noticed but whenever there was a power near by krillin is usually the first to sense it, think they stopped doing that after the cell saga

[fishjie]

You can't be serious[/I]. Piccolo couldn't keep up with Freeza's third form. How in the hell do you figure he could keep up with SSJ Goku, whom killed Freeza in his 4th form? This is the same guy, who pre-SSJ, kept up with fourth form Freeza? Seriously?

At the end of the Freeza arc, Goku was King Shit. No one was even close to him. The only one who was (Freeza), died at his hands. Piccolo could only dream about fighting Goku, and even then Goku would kick his ass in his own dreams.


yeah but then piccolo fused with kame, and was able to fight cell, and later, android 17. he was definitely as strong as a super saiyan at that point.

anywho i would say tien is next strongest, because he delayed cell temporarily.

yamcha and krillin were both too preoccupied getting pussy to care anymore.

mystic gohan, or gay gohan as i like to call him, is stronger than goku at the end. i mean cmon, he pwned buu for free. whereas goku could not.

[TheSix]

If you guys are referring to the end of the time line (after Buu), there is no way in hell that any of them would have a problem with Freeza.

In current DBZ time, Freezer is a joke.

Shit, even Videl > Freeza

[fishjie]

Shit, even Videl > Freeza

no way.

i dont think yamcha could take frieza either

he went out like a little bitch to android 16

[maxx]

i dont know if anyone noticed but whenever there was a power near by krillin is usually the first to sense it, think they stopped doing that after the cell saga

nah its piccolo then krillen....gokus usually eating a fat steak to be bothered by it.

[The Damned]

no way.

i dont think yamcha could take frieza either

he went out like a little bitch to android 16

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Anyone that's Yamacha or below him gets absolutely raped by Freeza.

I would say that Krillin is probably close to Freeza's strength, but hasn't surpassed it, especially since we know that he's a lot weaker than his wife, even into GT. He never really seems to get stronger after Cell Saga (just like Yamcha and co).

And, yeah, gay Gohan > anyone by the end of DBZ when it comes to non-SSJ. Hell, even then he's probably stronger everyone including that outside of the two fused guys and even then he's probably as strong as Gotenks.

[Ki Shima]

.

mystic gohan, or gay gohan as i like to call him, is stronger than goku at the end. i mean cmon, he pwned buu for free. whereas goku could not.

you seriously believe when goku vs Uub fight was happening gohan was still stronger? :confused:


I would say that Krillin is probably close to Freeza's strength, but hasn't surpassed it, especially since we know that he's a lot weaker than his wife, even into GT. He never really seems to get stronger after Cell Saga (just like Yamcha and co).

but goku and vegeta were a tie (according to everyone but me) when the androids showed up, vegeta got owned for free by one. so that would mean 18 was stronger than goku even after goku trained for years.

so 18>>>>>>>>frieza for free

krillin + the two saiyan kids killed brolly during the buu saga time, if thats any indication :rofl:

[Biolink]

If you guys are referring to the end of the time line (after Buu), there is no way in hell that any of them would have a problem with Freeza.

In current DBZ time, Freezer is a joke.

Shit, even Videl > Freeza

Frieza may have been a joke towards the end of DBZ to anybody with any reasonable fighting skill(Even if you weren't Goku and Vegeta tier level fighters).

I still wouldn't go as far as to say that Videl was stronger than Final Frieza.

I HIGHLY doubt she's as strong as a Super Saiyan. She'd have to be at least at Super Saiyan level to defeat Frieza.

Videl's strong, but I don't take her that seriously.

Guys with natural fighting ability like Piccolo and Tien took years to reach up to that level. Even then, such as in Piccolo's case that required him merging with Nail, and Kami.

Videl's strong for a human, but I wouldn't put her at Z Fighter level. I don't even think she learned how to fire Ki blasts(Don't quote me on that though). Gohan taught her how to fly, and that was all the effort needed to get into her panties.

[maxx]

maybe im crazy but i swear she show some form of super strength/energy strength in the final dbz movie where gohan and her where they were costumed up.

[Azrael]

To the people who are saying Tien/Krillin are stronger than Final Freeza: How?!

Think about everything Goku had to do in order to beat Freeza. Even just starting at the end of DB, he trained with Kami, got a natural powerup after getting killed in the Raditz fight, trained with Kaio, powerup after Vegeta fight, trained in 100x gravity, powerup after the Ginyu Fight, and he STILL needed to go SSJ (which was a huge deal...at the time anyway) in order to be stronger than Freeza.

The last formal training the humans had was the Kaio training. Kaio training only put Goku at Saiya-jin Saga Vegeta level, how would it make the humans any stronger than that? With all their personal training, I'd put them at Captain Ginyu level, but they don't have the Saiyajin Power-up benefit nor the beefyness of a SSJ transformation. Even if they "held their own" against Non-Perfect Cell or Cell Juniors or whatever, that doesn't make them Freeza-level.

Freeza is only a joke because the story arcs after him had to try and one-up him, and it started getting out of hand. The only characters who make him look weak are the villains after him, the ones who go blond, and Piccolo.

And I would say SSJ3 Goku > Mystic Gohan.

[The Damned]

^ As per usual, I agree with Azrael.

you seriously believe when goku vs Uub fight was happening gohan was still stronger? :confused:

It's not like Uub was nearly as strong as Kid Buu. Hell, he probably wasn't even Freiza level considering the way that Goku was handling him in normal form IIRC.

For the record, I don't think that Tien could completely take Final Form Freeza either despite his showing with Cell. Didn't he take Cell by surprise and use his strongest attack...and all it did was keep Cell at bay?

Yeah...strong, but basically, anyone that isn't a Saiyan isn't "strong enough".

[Ki Shima]

oh yeah 18 is only part android so she's the strongest human :rofl:

[maxx]

i though uub was a strong as kid buu but just couldnt tap into it.

[The Damned]

^ He is and you're right. That's what I was getting at.

oh yeah 18 is only part android so she's the strongest human :rofl:

Well, yeah, but she doesn't count. She wasn't originally human.

Otherwise, we would be counting Uub as the strongest human since he's the reincarnation of Buu, who is stronger than her by far (even if it's only potential-wise).

Aren't we only counting Z-fighters?

[goodm0urning]

You're debating power levels? What is this? A DBZ fansite, circa 1998? PlanetNamek.com or some shit?

[maxx]

^ He is and you're right. That's what I was getting at.



Well, yeah, but she doesn't count. She wasn't originally human.

Otherwise, we would be counting Uub as the strongest human since he's the reincarnation of Buu, who is stronger than her by far (even if it's only potential-wise).

Aren't we only counting Z-fighters?

we're only counting actual humans....but i guess we kinda just uncounciously agreed on z fighters since tien isnt human.

goodmourning: haha i used to fucking live on that site. planetnamek.com was my shit in the 7th grade.

[Biolink]

@ Azrael

IIRC several of the Z-Fighters die, and they all decide to stay behind and train on King Kai's planet.

I don't find it that improbable that after a DECADE or more after Frieza's defeat that 1 or 2 of the fighters that weren't born with Saiyan blood in them, became as strong as Frieza after a decade or more of training.

It's only fair when you have 8 year old Trunks, and 7 year old Goten able to roll Frieza without a problem at their young age, all because they have Saiyan blood.

It's a nice compromise for Tien and Krillin(Arguably IMO). That would only be fair since Vegeta and the other Saiyans could probably fight 500 Frieza's and not get tired.

That's only fair.

If Tien was only around Ginyu level, there would be no way in hell that he would be able to contain Super Cell for as long as he did.

(BTW I am aware that I probably am spelling Saiyan all fucked up).

[Ki Shima]

you've all seen the difference in power, if tien wasnt anywhere near strong enough it would of done NOTHING to cell, you know what its like for someone weaker to be ki blasting a strong foe.

i seriously believe krillin can beat frieza, example of a power boost yeh?

vegeta got MAN HANDLED by one of the ginyu force, a few eps later after tien got taught by king kai, tien man handled TWO members by himself

when power grows in this anime it really grows

look at goku after he got fatally wounded on namek, he came out strongth enough to give 4th form frieza a bruise on his face. his power level was at 180.000 before he got injured, and he came out and hurt somebody whos 2ND form was over a MILLION

[The Damned]

^ It's a manga first. Wasn't that part filler?

we're only counting actual humans....but i guess we kinda just uncounciously agreed on z fighters since tien isnt human.

I'm pretty sure that Tien is human.

He just has the third eye thing as a reference to Saiyuki or so I've been told IIRC.

[merdoc]

Tien did alright when he fought trunks in the bojack movie till trunks went SS.

[Ki Shima]

^ It's a manga first. Wasn't that part filler?


which part? :wonder:

[maxx]

^ It's a manga first. Wasn't that part filler?



I'm pretty sure that Tien is human.

He just has the third eye thing as a reference to Saiyuki or so I've been told IIRC.

oh one person said he was a demi god and another said he was actually an alien.

[Ki Shima]

oh one person said he was a demi god and another said he was actually an alien.

those thrd eye people from my knowledge (and old 3x3 eyes memories) three eye'd peeps aren't human, had this discussion before with someone on here but they were certain that he was human for some reason

[The Damned]

Tien did alright when he fought trunks in the bojack movie till trunks went SS.

Movies don't count for anything, at least with regards to this.

which part? :wonder:

Oh, uh, sorry. It's hard to focus between this thread and several others, TV, my laptop and being sick still.

I meant the King Kai thing was filler, wasn't it? I remember being told that a while ago, but I haven't read most of the manga, so....

oh one person said he was a demi god and another said he was actually an alien.

Guillible....

He's human, he just looks weird. On that note, Chaotzu's human as well--yeah, I know; not that it matters, the weakling.

[Ki Shima]

Oh, uh, sorry. It's hard to focus between this thread and several others, TV, my laptop and being sick still.

I meant the King Kai thing was filler, wasn't it? I remember being told that a while ago, but I haven't read most of the manga, so....
.

yeah it might be, but theres plenty of other evidence that shows difference in power and how moves are near enough nullified. i still stand by my theory that krillin buu saga > frieza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS0oNAcDt4o

[The Damned]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS0oNAcDt4o

Yes, linking to a video where Krillin cuts someone in half who is extremely malleable proves that Krillin is stronger than Freezer, especially after Krillin gets murdered (again lol) and then Yamcha says what's doubtless his filler line (which is probably a lie too since characters, you know, can do that).

Such excellent proof you have.

[Shade]

I highly doubt Tien would have problems with Final Frieza. He was strong enough put a stranglehold on Super Cell.

You have to keep in mind, that an attack could simply be powerful enough in and of itself to keep a more powerful being at bay. Perfect example would be Goku during the battle with Raditz. Goku's Kamehameha raising his fighting strength from 416 to 924 in that instant, but Goku in and of himself still read at 416 after the attack was over, as that boost in power was temporary, and not his base strength.

I would think Super Cell would be stronger than Final Frieza, because if he wasn't then he would have been killed by one of Saiyans before hand. Just like Trunks rolled Metal Frieza without breaking a sweat.


No doubt. Cell form 2 shits on Freeza's final form.

Being as optimistic as possible I'd say Tien is slightly stronger than Final Frieza, but I can't speak for the rest of the Humans.

No way. By saying that, you're saying he's stronger than a Super Saiyan. And we know that's not the case. Otherwise, the Z-Senshi would have depended on his presence alot more.

yeah but then piccolo fused with kame, and was able to fight cell, and later, android 17. he was definitely as strong as a super saiyan at that point.

No doubt. Once he fused with Kame, he was the strongest Hero at that point. But I wasn't arguing that. It was said he was Super Saiyan strong during the Freeza arc, and that's just rubbish.

mystic gohan, or gay gohan as i like to call him, is stronger than goku at the end. i mean cmon, he pwned buu for free. whereas goku could not.

Don't know about the end, but if you mean during the actual fighting with Buu, then yea. Gohan post Old Kai power up was God Tier. Buu couldn't touch him, and neither could anyone else.

To the people who are saying Tien/Krillin are stronger than Final Freeza: How?!
....

Yea. There's just no way all the humans, who by the Freeza arc, couldn't keep up do to their various limitations, were all surpassed the level of a Super Saiyan. It just didn't happen.

You have to keep in mind, that really, no one was even close to Freeza in the whole damn Galaxy. He was King Shit. All the villains post Freeza were created by artificial means. So when the Super Saiyan came along, he was Beef Surpreme. If a human could just train for 30, 40 years, and surpass Super Saiyan power, then Master Roshi would have done it, and others. of course, conditions changed, and way more powerful warriors started surfacing (Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien the most stand out), but they are still humans, and they have limits.

And I would say SSJ3 Goku > Mystic Gohan.

Gotenks' SSJ3 was stronger than Goku's, IIRC. Gohan post Old Kai power up was more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks.


It's not like Uub was nearly as strong as Kid Buu. Hell, he probably wasn't even Freiza level considering the way that Goku was handling him in normal form IIRC.

Agreed. Uub was strong, but he would have got handled if Goku put the juice on. Uub has the potential to be stronger, but he wasn't there yet, at all.

Yeah...strong, but basically, anyone that isn't a Saiyan isn't "strong enough".

Ding Dong.

you've all seen the difference in power, if tien wasnt anywhere near strong enough it would of done NOTHING to cell, you know what its like for someone weaker to be ki blasting a strong foe.

See above.

i seriously believe krillin can beat frieza, example of a power boost yeh?

Naw. There's just no way.

vegeta got MAN HANDLED by one of the ginyu force, a few eps later after tien got taught by king kai, tien man handled TWO members by himself

Filler.

when power grows in this anime it really grows

look at goku after he got fatally wounded on namek, he came out strongth enough to give 4th form frieza a bruise on his face. his power level was at 180.000 before he got injured, and he came out and hurt somebody whos 2ND form was over a MILLION

For Saiyans. That doesn't apply to humans, like Krillin. You know this, right?

[goodm0urning]

As with any character in Dragon Ball, Tenshinhan is human unless explicitly stated otherwise. In early Dragon Ball, Toriyama gave many of his apparently human characters various non-human features, some of which were drawn from folklore and mythology and some of which just looked cool to him. Some of them were explained later in the series (like Goku's tail) and some were not (like Bulma's hair or Kuririn's lack of a nose). Tenshinhan's eye has never been explained, at least not in the "canon" storyline and oh my sweet bloody Jesus, why am I participating in this discussion?

[Shade]

...and oh my sweet bloody Jesus, why am I participating in this discussion?

Because you like Dragon Ball, and you want to discuss it? Just a guess.

[maxx]

Is cockiness a saiyan trait or sumtin just for gohan and vegeta...i swear the world would be alot safer if it wasn't for them.

[Biolink]

No way. By saying that, you're saying he's stronger than a Super Saiyan. And we know that's not the case. Otherwise, the Z-Senshi would have depended on his presence alot more.

I kind of get what you are saying, but I didn't really think about it from that much of a technical point of view, to viewing Ki blasts(Sans the Spirit Bomb) as seperate entity's from the fighters.

Going by that way of thinking, I would rephrase it to "I believe Tien has the strength to beat Frieza, but Tien himself isn't as strong as Final Frieza."

Which comes off as kind of weird, because it's very easy to confuse the two in a debate like this.

When we talk about it from that kind of perspective, I'm looking for the Final Result, not inbetween stuff like what happens depending on what kind of power boost he gets for firing off ki blasts. I believe that if they were to fight Tien by the end definitely has the power to kill Frieza.

[ssjtin]

I love Dragonball Z.

Next post please.

[Shade]

I kind of get what you are saying, but I didn't really think about it from that much of a technical point of view, to viewing Ki blasts(Sans the Spirit Bomb) as seperate entity's from the fighters.

Going by that way of thinking, I would rephrase it to "I believe Tien has the strength to beat Frieza, but Tien himself isn't as strong as Final Frieza."

Which comes off as kind of weird, because it's very easy to confuse the two in a debate like this.

When we talk about it from that kind of perspective, I'm looking for the Final Result, not inbetween stuff like what happens depending on what kind of power boost he gets for firing off ki blasts. I believe that if they were to fight Tien by the end definitely has the power to kill Frieza.

And that's the thing. Let's just say Tien, could fend off Freeza for a minute. Pop a few high powered rushes, a few powerful Tri Beam attacks, but then what? He'd only harm Freeza, since Freeza can with stand, and dodge Super Saiyan Kamehameha's, and withstand the impact of a huge Spirit Bomb, and Tien would be hella worn out, and just wouldn't have the power to withstand the oncoming flurry of attacks Freeza wouuld unleash him.

Hell, could Tien even HIT Freeza in a straight up battle? Maybe, but Tien did get the jump on Cell. Had he been aware, maybe he wouldn't have got caught up in the Tri Bem shenanigans to begin with.

[Biolink]

How exactly would you rate Powerful Ki Blasts then in terms of the power boost they give to fighters?

There is nothing abnormal about Tien at all relative, to some of the beings in DBZ.

If it was outright beneath Super Cell in terms of power, he would have gotten out of it, a lot sooner. The first surprise blast, we'll give it to Tien, but not really after that.

That would mean Tien jumped millions of levels upwards in terms of power level, and that's kind of far-fetched.

[The Damned]

Is cockiness a saiyan trait or sumtin just for gohan and vegeta...i swear the world would be alot safer if it wasn't for them.

...Gohan isn't cocky. He's...awkward. The only time I remember being anywhere near cocky was against Super Buu, which he had in the bag until he got blindsided. The cockiness was warranted...unlike with Vegeta.

With him, cockiness is a trait of being a jobber.

[Biolink]

...Gohan isn't cocky. He's...awkward. The only time I remember being anywhere near cocky was against Super Buu, which he had in the bag until he got blindsided. The cockiness was warranted...unlike with Vegeta.

With him, cockiness is a trait of being a jobber.

He was cocky as shit IMO, when he went SSJ 2 for the first time against Perfect Cell.

Goku:

"GOHAN WE KNOW YOU HAVE THE POWER!!!! JUST HURRY UP AND KILL CELL!!!!"

*Gohan shoots Goku a very nasty look*

Gohan:


" NO, I HAVE TO MAKE HIM SUFFER AS MUCH AS HE HAD MADE EVERYONE ELSE SUFFER!!!!"

(Just paraphrasing a little bit)

Which eventually lead to Goku coming in the fight, getting killed, and then the entire debacle with Cell instant transportating himself back to Earth and even stronger than he was before.

[The Damned]

I don't count that as cockiness. Just being naive like his father for just reasons. It's along the lines of "Pathos on Freiza" except that Gohan wanted Cell to suffer justly for all the people he absorbed and killed.

Unlike Vegeta, I don't doubt that if Gohan knew about that, he would have killed Cell sooner/instantly.

[maxx]

gohan knew how strong he was...even his father was like hurry up u dumbass. i feel naive and cockiness are on a fine fucking line and gohan crossed it into cockiness. unlike goku who thought he could give frieza another shit. nigga gave him like 5-10 second chances in that battle. Thats fucking being naive.

[Biolink]

It's not necessarily brash "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I AM THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS, KISS MY ASS" Vegeta arrogance, but you are right in that it's moreso among the lines of that dumb Goku naivety that gives the bad guy a 2nd chance(And by that, I mean obvious plot points to give the bad guy a reason to get some power up and come back stronger.)

I guess that's more subjective, but this was the 1st time I ever saw Gohan behave in that kind of manner, where he just outright withholds destroying the bad guy because of his physical dominance over him.

At least with Goku it's kind of expected since he's dumb and incredibly naive, but I never expected that out of Gohan.

That to me at least was arrogance on his part.

After years of playing 2nd fiddle, he becomes the strongest, and then can't even finish the job outright.

[maxx]

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I AM THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS, KISS MY ASS".

fuck u for making laugh out loud at 1:30 in the morning.

[Biolink]

fuck u for making laugh out loud at 1:30 in the morning.

:rofl:

It's still 12:30 AM here, no problem.

But yeah.

Dragonball Z is the shit.

[Sonichuman]

And I would say SSJ3 Goku > Mystic Gohan.

SSJ3 Goku slightly > Fat Buu
Mystic Gohan extremely > Super Buu

I think Mystic Gohan is the strongest none fused character entity by the end of Z

[fishjie]

you seriously believe when goku vs Uub fight was happening gohan was still stronger? :confused:


uub aint kid buu

gohan raped super evil buu for free, way worse than ssj3 gotenks.

when goku was ssj3 he was not able to beat kid buu, who imo is weaker than super evil buu

[fishjie]

and another thing about the filler

its so ridiculous

example, after gohan beats cell, pikon mauls cell in hell. but then goku defeats pikon. goku couldnt beat regular cell, but then after gohan kills him, cell became a super saiyan level 2. and now somehow goku > pikon > cell?!?! bullshit!

jesus christ the only reason im posting in this thread was because i came 20 times watching that special anniversary ep. only reason im participating in this gamefaqs discussion, which i guess i kind of started by asking the question of how the humans are tiered. lulz

[Tigerboi]

Uh, the Buu saga was far too confusing and well....gay to really put a gauge on.

the entire thing to me was proof that toriyama just really didn't care anymore. The strength levels made no sense.

Was kid buu stronger than super buu? Was goku ssj3 stronger than gotenks ssj3?

The buu saga had too many fucking different forms and transformations.

[Azrael]

@ Azrael

IIRC several of the Z-Fighters die, and they all decide to stay behind and train on King Kai's planet.
When? If you're talking about Saiyajin Arc, I already mentioned that. I just don't see how, if Kaio couldn't make Goku any stronger than Saiyajin Arc Vegeta, how it would give the humans an even bigger boost in power.

I don't find it that improbable that after a DECADE or more after Frieza's defeat that 1 or 2 of the fighters that weren't born with Saiyan blood in them, became as strong as Frieza after a decade or more of training.
Time is, unfortunately, irrevalent. Plus, Krillin and Yamucha stopped training after the Cell Games. Tien continued training, so while he probably got stronger, it wouldn't be by leaps and bounds. You have to remember just how badass Freeza was for his time.

That's only fair.
It would be fair for the humans...but its not. That's why they get sidelined for most of DBZ.

If Tien was only around Ginyu level, there would be no way in hell that he would be able to contain Super Cell for as long as he did.
Contain. Contain, that's the key word. The Kikouhou is a very concentrated blast, so he doesn't have to be stronger than the enemy. That was the best Tien could do, had they actually fought Cell would have waxed him.

vegeta got MAN HANDLED by one of the ginyu force, a few eps later after tien got taught by king kai, tien man handled TWO members by himself
That's just anime-specific filler. Movies also don't really count either.

Is cockiness a saiyan trait or sumtin just for gohan and vegeta...i swear the world would be alot safer if it wasn't for them.
I remember hearing somewhere that part of the SSJ transformation includes cockiness/increased aggression or something. I know its a side effect of fusion.

Although the world would have been a lot safer if not for Goku's irresponsibility, honestly.

-- Could have beaten #19 and #20 easily if only he'd taken the medicine Trunks brought him all the way from the future.

-- Should not have given Cell a senzu bean.

-- Could have mollywhooped Majin Vegeta in two seconds flat, thus preventing Majin Buu from even coming out.

-- Could have taken out Fat Buu in SSJ3 form, but decides to leave the fate of the world to a couple of 7 year olds.

You're debating power levels? What is this? A DBZ fansite, circa 1998? PlanetNamek.com or some shit?
Ah, planetnamek. Those were the days.

You know you can't help yourself. :razzy:

EDIT
I believe the original Japanese VA for Tien died two years ago, which may be a reason why Tien didn't show up in the new special.

[Artayes]

I believe the original Japanese VA for Tien died two years ago, which may be a reason why Tien didn't show up in the new special.

oh, someone told me that earlier and it might be true. I was wondering why Tien and Chaotzu never showed up and that seems like a pretty good reason, but it would have been cool if he at least appeared in the background with the others.but knowing Tien, he would have participated with the others.

[BadMojo]

Take away Tien, Krillen, Yamcha, Chaotzu, Roshi, Androids, Uub, Tao Pai Pai and Videl.

Anyone else agree Mr. Satan to be the strongest human out of the rest of the human population? The man did win a martial arts tournament before fighting Cell. Oh and lets not forget he peaced out the two bandits after they shot his dog.

[Artayes]

Take away Tien, Krillen, Yamcha, Chaotzu, Roshi, Androids, Uub, Tao Pai Pai and Videl.

Anyone else agree Mr. Satan to be the strongest human out of the rest of the human population? The man did win a martial arts tournament before fighting Cell. Oh and lets not forget he peaced out the two bandits after they shot his dog.

Yajirobe would wax him. If General Blue was still around he would beat him. I don't think Mr. Popo is human but he would beat him too. Olibu would win but he is a dead human of many, many years in otherworld. Crane hermit would beat him as well. Ox King and Chi Chi would kick his butt hard as well.

It goes something like this- Uub, Androids, Tien, Krillen, Yamcha, Roshi, Yajirobe, Tao Pai Pai, Chaotzu, Ox King, Videl, Chi Chi, Crane Hermit, and Satan somewhere after that. there are a few other humans that are still around pretty strong like the old man Gohan met before Cell games that Pai Pai beat and the Native American father under Korin Tower.

[VG Emblem]

The only thing that really matters about the power levels in the Buu Saga is Kid Buu versus Super Buu. I believe Kid Buu is stronger than any other Buu, except for the form after he absorbed Mystic Gohan. Even then, Kid Buu is a more dangerous/reckless fighter.

[LeRaldo]

Contain. Contain, that's the key word. The Kikouhou is a very concentrated blast, so he doesn't have to be stronger than the enemy. That was the best Tien could do, had they actually fought Cell would have waxed him.

Just wanted to add: not only that, but I believe the attack he was doing depletes his actual life force instead of just his ki/energy or whatever, so if you use it too much, you will die. That's why Goku was in a panic when Tenshinhan did it more than like, two times (and ended up doing it like 45 times, lol). I believe he would have died just from overusing that attack, had Goku not instant transmissioned and gave him a Senzu. At least, that's how I interpreted the battle.

[Tizoc]

Although the world would have been a lot safer if not for Goku's irresponsibility, honestly.

-- Could have beaten #19 and #20 easily if only he'd taken the medicine Trunks brought him all the way from the future.

-- Should not have given Cell a senzu bean.

-- Could have mollywhooped Majin Vegeta in two seconds flat, thus preventing Majin Buu from even coming out.

-- Could have taken out Fat Buu in SSJ3 form, but decides to leave the fate of the world to a couple of 7 year olds.

I wonder if Toriyama did that to make up for more fights and/or piss off the fans? Cuz no matter how naive and goodhearted Goku is, he needs to think of the bigger picture; badguy destroys world, no more food.

[Ki Shima]

Yes, linking to a video where Krillin cuts someone in half who is extremely malleable proves that Krillin is stronger than Freezer, especially after Krillin gets murdered (again lol) and then Yamcha says what's doubtless his filler line (which is probably a lie too since characters, you know, can do that).

Such excellent proof you have.

i really didn't see it as being filler unless kid buu causing trouble in heaven was filler. and just because krillin died he isnt strong? i think this is the same thinking that prevents people from believing goku can teleport with superman away from our sun and then crush his head with one hand


SSJ3 Goku slightly > Fat Buu
Mystic Gohan extremely > Super Buu

I think Mystic Gohan is the strongest none fused character entity by the end of Z

mystic gohan got a lesson of how to fight when buu absorbed piccolo and gotenks

uub aint kid buu

gohan raped super evil buu for free, way worse than ssj3 gotenks.

when goku was ssj3 he was not able to beat kid buu, who imo is weaker than super evil buu

which means super buu (the buu after absorbing gohan) could flick gohans head off


i think people dont really wanna accept the power upgrade, so many years f training goes by and we all still think frieza has some kind of strength. i mean seriously even 19 and 20 were far superior to final form frieza

i think you all are looking at it like as soon as they stopped reading power levels their power strated to raise EXTREMELY slowly

edit: oh yeah, um. you see trunks EASILLY defeated MECHA FRIEZA..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya980HZhiHQ


BTW

goku shuld of taken the medicine earlier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MoFXPAvIxc&feature=related

TAKE THIS WHEN YOU GET SICK!!!!!!!!

[Shade]

Ki Shima: It was filler. It never happened in the Manga. And you're misunderstanding what we're saying. Sure, Saiyans, and random beings made from science and magic were more powerful than Freeza, but not the humans. It was a feat they simply couldn't do on their own.

That's just the facts.

Oh, and Piccolo. But Namek's are aliens, anyway. Aliens with hella God like abilities.

[The Epidemic]

i just wanna say tht Tien (fuck any of the earthlings) became stronger than frieza...

dont let tri-beam fool you.

Lol im postive that android 19 (the fat one...is that 19 or 20?) could of taken out everyone besides goku, vegeta and maaaybe piccolo.

[Azrael]

I wonder if Toriyama did that to make up for more fights and/or piss off the fans? Cuz no matter how naive and goodhearted Goku is, he needs to think of the bigger picture; badguy destroys world, no more food.
After having written about Goku for so long, Toriyama really wanted to give the spotlight to other characters, especially Gohan. That, and Goku was essentially overpowered anyway. So that's why Goku is always off somewhere dead/being irresponsible. But the fans still loved Goku so Toriyama would have no choice but to have him come back and save the day.

goku shuld of taken the medicine earlier?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MoFXPAvIxc&feature=related

TAKE THIS WHEN YOU GET SICK!!!!!!!!
Um, English dub.

It's been awhile since I've seen the original Japanese version, but I'm pretty sure Trunks gives him the meds as a preventative measure. When Goku does get sick, the others ask why, and he says he never got sick so he never bothered to take it.

[Ki Shima]

Ki Shima: It was filler. It never happened in the Manga. And you're misunderstanding what we're saying. Sure, Saiyans, and random beings made from science and magic were more powerful than Freeza, but not the humans. It was a feat they simply couldn't do on their own.

That's just the facts.

Oh, and Piccolo. But Namek's are aliens, anyway. Aliens with hella God like abilities.

erm... if saiyans are so great then why is it that

raditz > piccolo and goku (and we all know these two were way ahead of the earth fighters)

after a YEAR of training

1 Z fighter could kill 5 or more raditz easilly (1 saiba man had equal power to raditz)

a power boost like that in a year? HUMANS!!!!!!!!!!??


Um, English dub.

It's been awhile since I've seen the original Japanese version, but I'm pretty sure Trunks gives him the meds as a preventative measure. When Goku does get sick, the others ask why, and he says he never got sick so he never bothered to take it.

but he said he "didnt bother take it cos he never got sick" in the english dub, he needed to take it when he got sick cos if he didnt then why would it be in his body? it's taken to kill whatevers there and if he doesnt know if its there or not why waste it?

you people really know how to ad-lib

[Shade]

I can't tell if he's serious, or trolling.

[Azrael]

Meaning, the virus was in his body already (memory is fuzzy, but I think he caught it on Yardrat), but it may not manifest itself immediately. Trunks gives him the medicine and tells him this virus, which he has now but may not show itself until later, will kill him, here take this medicine to kill it. Goku doesn't take it because he never sees any symptoms, despite the boy from the future telling him he will get sick and die.

You can't use the English dub as gospel, its notorious for mis-translations/making up its own shit.

[Ki Shima]

I can't tell if he's serious, or trolling.

both

you probably didnt understand what i meant, what i was saying that humans arent incapable of getting to that point, maybe not as fast as saiyans and namekians but they are able to get there, which is evident with the power boost allowing them to take on 5 raditz single handedly

Meaning, the virus was in his body already (memory is fuzzy, but I think he caught it on Yardrat), but it would take 3 years to actually make him sick. Trunks gives him the medicine and tells him this virus, which he has now but may not show itself until later, will kill him, here take this medicine to kill it. Goku doesn't take it because he never sees any symptoms, despite the boy from the future telling him he will get sick and die.

You can't use the English dub as gospel, its notorious for mis-translations/making up its own shit.

ok so it makes more sense now, even though it was said the virus was something that hit people world wide which lead me to believe he caught it on earth

so it didnt hit people world wide? if it didnt then how would he know how to beat this virus? so there was seperate dialogue explaining how the capsule corp dissected goku to find out how the virus worked?

sorry but something isnt adding up at all

[Azrael]

I found the Japanese version of that scene, and let me admit that I was wrong. Trunks says "Take this when you start showing symptoms", so Goku wasn't particularly being irresponsible by not taking it.

Though on that point, Bulma does suggest that they use the dragonballs to just wipe Dr. Gero out then and there, but everyone insists on just fighting instead, so blame Goku + Others for recklessly putting the world at risk in that way.

But I was wrong about that scene.

[The Damned]

i really didn't see it as being filler unless kid buu causing trouble in heaven was filler. and just because krillin died he isnt strong? i think this is the same thinking that prevents people from believing goku can teleport with superman away from our sun and then crush his head with one hand


You're intentionally missing the point: Destructo Disk working on Buu doesn't prove shit with regards to Krillin's strength because Buu is extremely shapable.

Unlike Cell or Freeza, I can't remember him taking a hit and not being scratched since he would bounce back, literally, from whatever the fuck it was that hit him.

Basically, Kid Buu is softer than the other two. On top of that, we already said countless times that techniques can be (much) stronger than the fighter himself.

i just wanna say tht Tien (fuck any of the earthlings) became stronger than frieza...

Tien's from Earth. Unless you meant to say Tien "didn't" become stronger than Freeza.

Lol im postive that android 19 (the fat one...is that 19 or 20?) could of taken out everyone besides goku, vegeta and maaaybe piccolo.

You're right, 19 is the fat one; 20 was Dr. Gero himself.

Anyway, this brings up another point: Yamcha got fucking beasted when they show up. Didn't he straight out die? Since the other Z-fighters aren't much tougher than him and both of them were WAY weaker than Freeza, especially since neither of them knew what went down in space (unless that mistranslated), yeah....

No Z-fighter is Freeza-level.

both

You're apparently being retarded--not that I'm surprised--also since you can't be both of those things at the same time.

There's a difference between playing Devil's advocate and straight up trolling and you're doing the latter by admission.

[Ki Shima]

You're apparently being retarded--not that I'm surprised--also since you can't be both of those things at the same time.

There's a difference between playing Devil's advocate and straight up trolling and you're doing the latter by admission.

oh so im being retarded?

I found the Japanese version of that scene, and let me admit that I was wrong. Trunks says "Take this when you start showing symptoms", so Goku wasn't particularly being irresponsible by not taking it.

But I was wrong about that scene.

THE DAMNED: so being retarded i was right somehow?

all you've said is im retarded because i pointed out krillin cut buu in half, sounds like you have something against me

LOGIC guides me through debating, im taking everything into account and a lot of you are missing things

I've been on these forums for a few years now, and i havent out right insulted people here even if i hit a rough patch in my life, and you come and reply to me claiming it's no surprise im acting retarded? cock sucker

[The Epidemic]

yea..thats what i meant Damned lol. I shouldnt post when i first wake up...

[Ho0v-Man]

Tien probably got to cap ginyu level. By the cell games, the rest of the humans probably got to ginyu force level as well. NO HUMAN COULD EVER TAKE FREEZA! THE IDEA OF THAT IS RIDICULOUS!

[Ki Shima]

ooh the new movie is evidence isnt it

if tien can beat future trunks without trunks being ssj

and future trunks obviously is head and shoulders above chibi trunks even when he grows up, and chibi trunks in this new OVA beat up someone who is equal to freeza without SSJ....


please, how much more evidence is needed??

oh yeah and im pretty sure krillin > goten (without ssj atleast)

[Shade]

LMFAO.

Stick a fork in him, he's done. And he admitted he's trolling, already. Don't bother anymore gentlemen.

[Ki Shima]

LMFAO.

Stick a fork in him, he's done. And he admitted he's trolling, already. Don't bother anymore gentlemen.

I was just trying to find an answer like the rest of you, with actual evidence and not "what DBZ's story is to me"

I admit though, I have allowed it to drag on quite long, guess there really is no reason of talking about it in the first place when people aren't going to take everything into account, so yeah stick a fork in me im done, and also done with debating with people who are debating for no reason

I mean seriously who the hell debates for no reason :confused:

End of "troll". :bluu:

[Shade]

I was just trying to find an answer like the rest of you, with actual evidence and not "what DBZ's story is to me"

I admit though, I have allowed it to drag on quite long, guess there really is no reason of talking about it in the first place when people aren't going to take everything into account, so yeah stick a fork in me im done, and also done with debating with people who are debating for no reason

I mean seriously who the hell debates for no reason :confused:

End of "troll". :bluu:

You're the one who isn't taking everything into account. We counter pointed your posts one by one, and you still harp on them like they are still valid.

Krillin cutting Buu in half. Filler. That means id didn't really happen, and was outside of Toriyama's origin storyline, therefore it holds no water.

Tien keeping up with base form Trunks. Movie/Film, which means it's not canon. holds no water.

oh yeah and im pretty sure krillin > goten (without ssj atleast)

This is why I said you were done. What in God's name makes you think Krillin is on par with Goten, or for that matter Freeza? Think about it. What evidence is there (canon, or filler) that validates Krillin having a power level on par with Freeza, and various Super Saiyans? Does that make any fucking sense?

[Higher-Jin]

People aren't giving Tien enough credit. Yeah the kikoho let him delay Cell, but do you honestly think someone like Master Roshi could do that? Even if he learned an attack like the kikoho? He had to have at least some strength to effect someone on that level. Remember Krillin tried the destructo disk on Cell and it dissipated on his neck. This has always been the rule, if you're too weak you don't even affect the person you're fighting.

Freeza was like nothing to SSJ Trunks who was nothing to Cell and Tien was enough on his level to delay him. Tien was definitely stronger than Freeza by the end of DBZ. You guys are putting way too much weight on the kikoho being some kind of miracle attack. Why don't we teach it to the farmer with shotgun and see how long he delays Cell?

[The Epidemic]

kikoho is like solar flare...its one of those techs that got nothing to do with your power lv.

Frieza>>>>>>>>>>>>Tien

[Shade]

People aren't giving Tien enough credit. Yeah the kikoho let him delay Cell, but do you honestly think someone like Master Roshi could do that? Even if he learned an attack like the kikoho? He had to have at least some strength to effect someone on that level. Remember Krillin tried the destructo disk on Cell and it dissipated on his neck. This has always been the rule, if you're too weak you don't even affect the person you're fighting.

Freeza was like nothing to SSJ Trunks who was nothing to Cell and Tien was enough on his level to delay him. Tien was definitely stronger than Freeza by the end of DBZ. You guys are putting way too much weight on the kikoho being some kind of miracle attack. Why don't we teach it to the farmer with shotgun and see how long he delays Cell?

That's not how it works, either. The attack is like a multiplier, not a "miracle attack" as you put it. It's like Kao ken, or the Kamehameha. It also drains your life energy. So tell me, how effective is it really, when your most powerful attack kills you, and the most it can do is stall another more powerful being?

You have to think within the context of the storyline when discussing this. There's no way in hell Tien could duke it out evenly with any Super Saiyan, and there's no evidence of the contrary. When people try to say Tien was any stronger than he should have been, they always say "He did that thing to Cell, so he must be stronger than _insert major villain/power turning point here_!".

All Tien did was stall Cell. Cell was un-harmed, Tien was fucking exhausted. Hell, he could have stalled him with Solar flares or some other technique. That doesn't make him Godlike in strength. The only Super powers at that time, other than the villains, were Piccolo, and the Saiyans. Period.

[ProfessorS]

LOL, this reminds me when I used to lurk on the old Planetnamek.com boards...

I think Krillin using his disc in Cell's neck was filler as well.

I personally do think Krillin is the strongest human, the comment Yamcha says to Marron at the tournament IS canon I believe.

Could they beat Freeza? I dunno. The way power levels grow exponentially in the series I suppose it's possible.

[Ki Shima]

You're the one who isn't taking everything into account. We counter pointed your posts one by one, and you still harp on them like they are still valid.

Krillin cutting Buu in half. Filler. That means id didn't really happen, and was outside of Toriyama's origin storyline, therefore it holds no water.

Tien keeping up with base form Trunks. Movie/Film, which means it's not canon. holds no water.



This is why I said you were done. What in God's name makes you think Krillin is on par with Goten, or for that matter Freeza? Think about it. What evidence is there (canon, or filler) that validates Krillin having a power level on par with Freeza, and various Super Saiyans? Does that make any fucking sense?

ok so im wrong in adding tien vs trunks fight and wrong in showing krillin chop buu in half

what im getting at is theres a growth in the humans that is stronger than your admitting it to be

goku and piccolo vs radits? tien being able to semi survive against nappa. if tien was really that weak there is no way he could keep cell 2 at bay

theres a growth there that you wont accept because these characters arent in the spot light. i guess the fight with ginyu force on kais planet was filler too?

so theres no CANON evidence of these guys showing new strength, imo thats only because the strongest and villains were so strong, you're all acting as if they hardly got anywhere in strength

well since nothings being accepted then the humans are as weak as you say they are, and also captain ginyu could probably show cell form 2 a thing or two i guess by that logic

kikoho was a technique to kill, it had force behind it, he used his ki to use it, also your forgetting that super saiyans dont have the same strength, goku ssj vs frieza is weaker than the goku ssj you see when he meets trunks

[The Damned]

@ Ki Shima: God, you are SO retarded. Just because you got one thing right that I wasn't even talking about and taking into consideration when I called you retarded doesn't mean you aren't so.

Lol at "cocksucker"--it's one word, dumbass--being your only comeback.

Oh no! I suck cocks! The horror!

Even if I did, it would just something else that I was better than you at.

Moron. Welcome to the Ignore List.

People aren't giving Tien enough credit. Yeah the kikoho let him delay Cell, but do you honestly think someone like Master Roshi could do that? Even if he learned an attack like the kikoho? He had to have at least some strength to put together as many blasts as he did, much less effect him. Remember Krillin tried the destructo disk on Cell and it dissipated on his neck. This has always been the rule, if you're too weak you don't even affect the person you're fighting.

Uh...no one is saying that Tien is a weakling. Just that he isn't strong enough and he's certainly not Freeza level.

Hell, by the time Dragon Ball Z starts, even Chaotzu is stronger than Master Roshi, who has completely stopped training and only still exists as for the sake of a)continuity and b)perversion. We all know how fucking worthless Chaotzu is.

I'll say it again. Yamcha, who is stronger than Chaotzu, got absolutely beasted by Android 19, who pretty much also manhandled Krillin and Tien around that time too IIRC. Yet they got beaten by Super Saiyan Vegeta who was probably still (a lot) weaker than Final Form Freeza.

Krillin and Tien, thusly, aren't much stronger than Yamcha, at least to be able to defeat Freeza.

If you're not an alien by the time Future Trunks comes into play, then you're completely worthless. End of story.

(And for the record, I think Freeza and King Cold jobbed to Future Trunks horribly considering everyone else was shitting themselves Krillin and Tien included, but that's just me and my being convinced that after the Freeza saga, Toriyama was just carelessly pulling things out of his ass.)

P.S. What you're saying isn't exactly completely true since Yajirobe cut off Vegeta's tail at the end of the Saiyan saga and I really don't think that even by the end of DBZ Yajirobe was Saiyan Saga Vegeta-level at that time.

Similarly, Gohan managed to hold off Freeza's second form for a bit before Piccolo came and in beasted him before Freeza went to third form. Yet Gohan was still getting his asskicked because he was (significantly) weaker than that form.

In fact, the only time I remember what you're talking about coming into play was against Perfect Cell himself, who was artifically stronger than Freeza and thus much, much stronger than everyone who wasn't Goku or Gohan. I'm talking like lightyears of distance stronger.

[Tizoc]

So who would tap ChiChi's ass?

[Shade]

what im getting at is theres a growth in the humans that is stronger than your admitting it to be

No one is saying they can't/haven't/don't get stronger. What I'm saying is they don't get stronger at nearly the rate the aliens (Piccolo, and the Saiyans) do, and they were no where near their strength near the end of the whole shebang.

goku and piccolo vs radits?

What does a 3-way battle between aliens, have to do with Tien, and the rest of the humans?


tien being able to semi survive against nappa.

Dude, he died during that battle. And it was his oh my go oh so powerful Kikoho that killed him off, which Nappa brushed the fuck off.

Nappa got dirty, bruised, yes. But no one could seriously hurt Nappa at the time, other than Goku.

if tien was really that weak there is no way he could keep cell 2 at bay

I'm tired of addressing this. Refer to my past several post for this.

theres a growth there that you wont accept because these characters arent in the spot light.

And there's a reason they weren't. Because they couldn't keep up.

i guess the fight with ginyu force on kais planet was filler too?

Yes.


also your forgetting that super saiyans dont have the same strength, goku ssj vs frieza is weaker than the goku ssj you see when he meets trunks

Again, what the hell does that have to do with your argument? It's like you're not even on the same planet as everyone else, here.

[The Damned]

So who would tap ChiChi's ass?

She's plain and hella psycho. Hell no.

I would rather take chances with Launch, since at least the crazy side of her can be reasoned with (as long as she doesn't have a weapon) and she was decently pretty and especially nice in her "normal" form.

[Higher-Jin]

That's not how it works, either. The attack is like a multiplier, not a "miracle attack" as you put it. It's like Kao ken, or the Kamehameha. It also drains your life energy. So tell me, how effective is it really, when your most powerful attack kills you, and the most it can do is stall another more powerful being?

You have to think within the context of the storyline when discussing this. There's no way in hell Tien could duke it out evenly with any Super Saiyan, and there's no evidence of the contrary. When people try to say Tien was any stronger than he should have been, they always say "He did that thing to Cell, so he must be stronger than _insert major villain/power turning point here_!".

All Tien did was stall Cell. Cell was un-harmed, Tien was fucking exhausted. Hell, he could have stalled him with Solar flares or some other technique. That doesn't make him Godlike in strength. The only Super powers at that time, other than the villains, were Piccolo, and the Saiyans. Period.

Solar flare blinds you. Kikoho is an actual energy attack. I don't know how many times I've seen those get shrugged off, even in the saiyan saga. Also you don't know exactly how much it "multiplies" tien's power either so stop acting like you do. You're just assuming it multiples it enough to support your theory. If Tien was weaker than Freeza the Kikohou would have to multiply his power by a ridiculous amount since Cell was already many times more powerful than Freeza.

I believe the power table is something like this:

Freeza > Super Saiyan > Cyborg Freeza > Super Saiyan after a couple years training > Androids > Cell > Super Piccolo > Imperfect Cell

Yet somehow Tien can effect the last link in that chain while being weaker than the first? I don't buy it. It makes zero sense.

[Ki Shima]

ok so his back up is the maker is pulling stuff out of his ass and also ssj vegeta is weaker than freeza, what an asshole

Kikoho (also called "tri-beam cannon") is Tenshinhan's ultimate technique. Due to its destructive power, he can only perform it while floating in the air. Forming a triangle with his hands, he targets an opponent or location, a zoomed view appearing in the triangle. He then forces a large amount of ki through this targeting technique, blasting away a perfectly-rectangular area on the ground below. Roshi, after seeing Tenshinhan and Goku in battle, has noted that the Kikoho is even stronger than the Kame-hame-ha. A Kikoho from Tenshinhan is comparable to a blast from a Saiyan, despite a Saiyan's inherent superiority in power. The disadvantage of this technique is that it requires some of Tenshinhan's own life energy to perform, severely weakening him after every attack.

taken from wiki.

i dont think anyone should listen to him because he's making up DBZ as he goes along, artificially stronger than frieza? goku was hiding from the androids and normal cell to become stronger, this is goku 3 years after fighting final form frieza and beasting him


he's full of shit, end of discussion.

edit: sorry shade but you're not really getting what im saying, never mind.

[The Damned]

I believe the power table is something like this:

Freeza > Super Saiyan > Cyborg Freeza > Super Saiyan after a couple years training > Androids > Cell > Super Piccolo > Imperfect Cell

Yet somehow Tien can effect the last link in that chain while being weaker than the first? I don't buy it. It makes zero sense.

Your table seems kind of wack. Is "Cell" there supposed to be Perfect Cell or just Cell after he absorbed 18? Regardless, Cell should be above the androids at that point and those Super Saiyans should be switched unless you meant "a couple years without training".

Anyway, to me, Imperfect Cell was pretty weak, especially since Super Piccolo (heh) was handling him pretty much until he ran away and Super Piccolo was only able to keep up with Freeza's second form, which I'm sure was much weaker than his Final Form.

(How much so I don't know.)

That's something you have to keep in mind as well: the Freeza everyone is talking about is Freeza's Final Form.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tien could maybe keep up with Freeza's first form, but I don't remember if that form even fought. And we know that second form raped Krillin, who Tien probably isn't much stronger then, so, even after those years of preparation for the Androids, no one's power seemed to really increase drastically outside of Vegeta's. Who is, surprise surprise, an alien.

I know it's hella disappointing, but humans in DBZ eventually become equivalent to Oolong: worthless.

[Higher-Jin]

First form freeza fought with Nail, ripped off his arm, and beat him with it. Well not really, but he may as well have. Also Super Piccolo got his ass handed to him by Imperfect Cell, remember? Goku had to pick his ass up, as well as Tien after he was exhausted.

Also I know it's non-canon, but Tien was shown holding his own against Trunks in Movie 9. It was written by Toriyama so that still gives some indication of where he thought Tien was power-wise.

[TS]

For the record I think this whole conversation is thoroughly retarded- random new DBZ villain has to be stronger than the previous one (and thus the heroes have to get stronger), even if it doesn't make sense or is dumb. The DBZ story is a victim of that sort of thinking.

However,
I believe the power table is something like this:

Freeza > Super Saiyan > Cyborg Freeza > Super Saiyan after a couple years training > Androids > Cell > Super Piccolo > Imperfect Cell

SSJ Goku beat Freeza, Piccolo was going even with #17 (both #18/17 being strong than #19/20 from what I remember), Vegeta got his shit caved in by #18 when they first met, IIRC.

[The Damned]

First form freeza fought with nail. Super Piccolo got his ass handed to him by Imperfect Cell, remember? Goku had to pick his ass up, as well as Tien after he was exhausted.

Really? I could have sworn that Super Piccolo was pretty much handing Cell his ass until Cell ran off and absorbed what was probably a literal ton of more people.

However, I will admit that I'm really hazy with regards to the Cell Saga beacuse as a little kid I got so damned bored with anime Namek taking literally years that I just decided take a break. Therefore, I only really saw everything after Perfect Cell was "born" with regards to episodes.

That and it's been a while.

[maxx]

So who would tap ChiChi's ass?

:woot:

me...i love me some girl who can fight.

[Higher-Jin]

Really? I could have sworn that Super Piccolo was pretty much handing Cell his ass until Cell ran off and absorbed what was probably a literal ton of more people.

However, I will admit that I'm really hazy with regards to the Cell Saga beacuse as a little kid I got so damned bored with anime Namek taking literally years that I just decided take a break. Therefore, I only really saw everything after Perfect Cell was "born" with regards to episodes.

That and it's been a while.

There may have been that too, I admit. But I thought the real death blow was dealt by Imperfect Cell.

Another thing I just remembered is how Tien arrives to help Gohan fight Buu during the Majin Saga.

[The Damned]

^ I was waiting for someone to bring that up. IIRC, Tien didn't end up really helping at all, though the fact he came instead of staying fuck away is what makes me like him.

There may have been that too, I admit. But I thought the real death blow was dealt by Imperfect Cell.

Well, I remember, though perhaps "remember" is the wrong word since I saw it recently, that Piccolo got blasted through the chest by Imperfect Cell after he absorbed a bunch of people, which is what you may be remembering.

TS is correct though, as are already the other people that have said it: this is pretty much impossible to concretely decide because everything after Freeza saga is literally so artifical from the villians (lol, androids/cyborgs/jinzofreakingningen and magical beings) to the power levels (various forms of Super Saiyan, little kids who are half-breeds being able to become Super Saiyan, etc.).


(That said, Tien still isn't Final Form Freeza level. :razz: )

[Higher-Jin]

Yeah well i guess we'll all have to agree to disagree because I think they are.

Although IIRC in the Majin Buu saga Yamcha and Krillin held their own against the fighters of Pikkon's world, and they were all pretty much well above Freeza and you could even argue they were above Perfect Cell considering how handily Pikkon merc'd them all.

[Azrael]

^Filler...

***

We always point out how easily Future Trunks beat Mecha Freeza and King Cold...but I think that's kind of an unfair fight. Freeza didn't even really get started, and King Cold never even transformed. Neither of them were taking Trunks seriously, and by the time they realized maybe they should start fighting for real...they were dead. I think Trunks is the only DBZ character to actually pull out his strongest moves first. :rofl:

[Higher-Jin]

^ Fine, if you're talking only about the Manga. But I'm talking about the TV series, and in that case it pretty much counts. Just labeling something as filler doesn't make it completely irrelevant.

[The Damned]

Um...filler DOES mean irrelevant with regards to canon-based discussions like this one. That's like saying that Super Saiyan Hitler is the stronger human because there was that Anne Frank/DBZ fanfic about it.

Isn't almost everything unrelated to King Kai regarding the afterlife filler when it comes to the anime? I'm pretty sure it is. I mean, does Pikkon even exist in the manga?

That said, yeah, agree to disagree, especially since I think that it's complicated by the fact that absorbing/fusing with weak people tends to increase people's powers abritaribly since you were correct about Nail get his ass handed to him, but then Piccolo with Nail was able to fight a higher form of Freeza. WTF?

Similarly, even by absorbing bunch of regular, weak-ass farmer-level humans, Imperfect Cell got strong enough (at least for a while, though I'm not sure if the boost temporary or permanent) to beat Super Piccollo shortly after Super Piccollo was handing him his ass.

Moral: Aliens are broken.

[maxx]

master roshi is the only broken human...no one is the universe is as perverted as him.

[Higher-Jin]

Didn't Toriyama say he wanted to end the series after the Freeza saga? Wouldn't that make just about everything after that filler in some sense since he's doing work due to the money/outside circumstances and not for the sake of the story? Anyway, as far as the TV series cannon goes my points are legitimate. If you're talking about only Manga then that's a different story.

[Azrael]

It does matter because the anime-only filler is completely random. ...Not like Toriyama did a great job keeping up either, but the anime writers just did shit to kill time. Toriyama did want to end the series after Freeza, but at least he actually wrote the manga portions of the Cell and Buu Saga's. The anime writers are just trying to throw shit out there.

Like, the humans Vs the Ginyu Force on Kaio's planet. It doesn't even make sense to have the humans defeat the Ginyu Force there. No way. Even WITH Kaio's training, the SAME training only made Goku as strong as Saiyajin Saga Vegeta. And I'm pretty sure Goku was stronger than everyone else when he showed up at Kaio's planet.

So how are the humans, who start off weaker than Goku, going to get that much stronger from the exact same training? It doesn't even make sense. That training wasn't even enough to beat Vegeta - Vegeta couldn't beat the Ginyu Force, and that was WITH powerups AFTER the Earth fight.

You can't use filler because it just doesn't hold up.

[Biolink]

IIRC I think his intention was, was to end it after the Cell saga.

I recall people saying that, he wanted Gohan to have a "Growing up" story of his own, and that he was meant to destroy Cell from the start. Of course, due to fan demand/complaint, Goku was a heavy co-star.

After the Cell saga, DBZ was still in demand so he decided to stretch it out one more time for the Majin Buu saga, and then after that he left the series, and Sunrise decided that they could branch the story on their own, so we got DB:GT(To Toriyama's credit, he did make the designs for SSJ 4).

I would have liked Vegeta to get a final boss of his own. In the end Gohan's growing up story didn't even matter, because he became a little bitch during the Majin Buu saga, and afterwards.

EDIT

Damned is right. It looks like I mixed two of the points up(The ending, and Gohan becoming the new hero).

[The Damned]

^ Nah. He originally wanted to Freeza Saga to be the end, which is part of the reason it took so long since it was supposed to be the climax. I mean, Goku was supposed to die as a hero (...again) overcoming the (then) strongest person in the entire universe.

You're right in that he basically wanted Gohan to be the new hero, but Gohan ended up getting pushed aside for Goku constantly coming back.

Didn't Toriyama say he wanted to end the series after the Freeza saga? Wouldn't that make just about everything after that filler in some sense since he's doing work due to the money/outside circumstances and not for the sake of the story? Anyway, as far as the TV series cannon goes my points are legitimate. If you're talking about only Manga then that's a different story.

Besides what Azrael said, I will admit that I was getting at the above, that's only because ultimately I'm not that big of fan of what DBZ ended up being since Toriyama ended up whoring himself out after the Freeza Saga.

I think I said this earlier in thread (or at least planned to), but I can never really hate DBZ for all that it's inspired for better (One Piece, Hunter x Hunter) or for worse (Naruto).

[fishjie]

yeah seriously what kind of shitty retcon was how goku escaped namek?

"hai guyz i was all panicky tryin 2 get teh space shipz to blast offs but it turns out i has teh teleports ability!!!11"

WTF

[Higher-Jin]

You can't use filler because it just doesn't hold up.

Why doesn't it hold up? Because it's DBZ and everything else makes sense?

Anyway I can use filler if I'm talking solely about the TV series cannon. It was in the TV series, hence it counts. As I said before Manga is a different story, but I still think these things indicate where Toriyama would've placed the humans power level wise if he had bothered to dedicate time to them. Especially considering the fact that when he did have to write them in (for the filler) he did make them strong.

[Azrael]

I'm pretty sure it was Freeza where Toriyama wanted to end it. Goku turns into the legendary Super Saiyajin and then ultimately dies after beating Freeza. That's why Freeza was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, Toriyama wasn't thinking about beyond him. But DBZ was doing too well and those raking in on the cash cow weren't prepared to let him just stop there.

The Majin Buu saga was supposed to be Gohan's arc, but complaints brought Goku back.

Cell is okay, and the MB Saga is kind of a mess, but I think Toriyama could have benefitted by not trying to one-up Freeza. Keep the SSJ transformation as something that Goku couldn't just do whenever he wanted to, and Cell could have been considerably weaker than Freeza but still pose a serious threat. That way other characters could have been more than just useless, and it might have prevented the USSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3/Fusion wackyness that Toriyama had to resort to just to keep up.

[Biolink]

yeah seriously what kind of shitty retcon was how goku escaped namek?

"hai guyz i was all panicky tryin 2 get teh space shipz to blast offs but it turns out i has teh teleports ability!!!11"

WTF

Anywhere you go in the Universe, you aren't safe from Goku

[The Damned]

@ Higher-Jin: I...uh, I'll just let Azrael respond to that if he wants to since I'm done.

yeah seriously what kind of shitty retcon was how goku escaped namek?

"hai guyz i was all panicky tryin 2 get teh space shipz to blast offs but it turns out i has teh teleports ability!!!11"

WTF

Haha.

It's even mor