Do you need to fight opponents @ your current skill level to improve ?

[vegetta]

The only comp i ever get is when i go to arcade, i'd say im somewhat decent but when i play someone real good i get worked bad.

So i'm wondering is it better to try to find someone to fight that's close to my own skill level so i can improve or can you learn more getting destroyed by someone thats alot better than yourself ?


Also everything that i know about the games i play i get info from strat guides , watching vids and here. Is that enough or does everyone need a mentor of sorts to really explain everything ? I guess what i'm saying is can you learn all you can by yourself ?

[RaishinX]

Yeah, pretty much.

[DS]

or can you learn more getting destroyed by someone thats alot better than yourself ?



That's usually the best way. That's how I learned. Either way, if you're dedicated, you can play just about anyone minus scrubs. You learn more from a variety of mid to top tier level players. Everyone has a different playstyle and some, at a higher level, can explain how certain properties work. Sometimes, playing isn't the only way to learn. Gotta ask questions, too.

[SF3LP]

both....from getting your ass kicked and from someone your own skill level or of you want you can watch vids and imply strats to your game and see if they work...its better to learn most things on your own so when you do something wrong while playing a better opponent they can probrably correct your mistakes...but yeah if you are devoted then yeah you can learn everything by yourself.....i did

[Dark Geese]

I agree both..because you may get beaten by a scrub because of one reason- INEXPOSURE.

Inexposure to a scrub style of play or a scrub mentality can beat you if you are not prepared..

Why?

Think about it..you think high level all the time and the scrub might be hella random..not falling for your tricks and mindgames because they are JUST MASHING...whereas high level players would...

And other things..but to be good you gotta see different styles..the more you see the better you become..

[SF3LP]

I agree both..because you may get beaten by a scrub because of one reason- INEXPOSURE.

Inexposure to a scrub style of play or a scrub mentality can beat you if you are not prepared..

Why?

Think about it..you think high level all the time and the scrub might be hella random..not falling for your tricks and mindgames because they are JUST MASHING...whereas high level players would...

And other things..but to be good you gotta see different styles..the more you see the better you become..

AWW man your right about that too....that happened to me at a casual....me and my friend were so used to high level play....i played some guy i was like wtf is he doing....then i lost....its funny cuz after that i realized exactly what you said....you cant get used to a certain style of play you have to be prepared for anything....but yeah just dont get exposed to TOO much scrubby goodness....its bad for you lol (technically if you play someone worse than you...you regress in skill level......words from daigo himself lol literally)

[Dandy J]

Think about it..you think high level all the time and the scrub might be hella random..not falling for your tricks and mindgames because they are JUST MASHING...whereas high level players would...

Yeap. You just have to be aware of all the options and what is going on. If you're getting destroyed and have absolutely no clue how to fight it, or you're not sure, you probably won't get better that way (at least not quickly). But as long as you understand what's going on and what you're doing wrong, if you take away some knowledge with every match and apply it to your game, you will get better.

Same thing goes for playing scrubs/mashers or something. Your advanced/non-frame-tight mixups won't work, but you can just attack everytime you have advantage and win. Just realize why the stuff is working and don't get in bad habits. You might even learn some effective mixups by coming up with stuff that's a mixup AND beats people who hit buttons in a certain situation. It's all in learning; knowledge is power!

[Dark Geese]

Yeah exactly you need to play scrubs and high level..but dont play scrubs all the time the truth..

Play more high level than not..but you dont want to be surprised getting beaten by a scrub because you couldnt adapt to scrub play in a tournament..and its happened to all of us it seems..

Lesson to be learned!!!

[nothingxs]

You need to start off by finding someone decent and trying to emulate what they are doing. That comes down to what buttons they are pressing, and at what times they are pressing it. Then you move on and find someone better to emulate, all the while you are trying to do these things while playing someone at around your level, or only better to the point that they won't kill you 3-0.

[Emil]

Pretty much what DandyJ said...plus, fighting noobs is generally a better way to improve your combo/attack string execution. If you're trying to learn a whole new character and you're totally new to his mixups and combos, it's going to be a big struggle to do anything against a high level player...but you'll get more used to your character if you are fighting a weaker opponent.

That said, this can also result in the problem of thinking your mixups are useful because they work on your weaker opponent, when in reality they would get owned by a high level player.

Generally if I want to pick up a new character, I either find an opponent that I know is very good with them and try to pick up things, or just watch match videos. Watching the match videos is probably more reliable, unless you can find an opponent as good as those people.

[Chuck Norris]

Scrubs....man oh man, I love when my boy jon abused gill in 3RD Strike once, constantly shooting cyro kinesis, and as i would super jump over it, HK .sweep me. Till i started psy-parrying that crap.

Nub-play does teach u alot it seems, i know after that day it made me realize 1) HK sweep is heavy nub-food, and 2) why does gill feel the need to show u his thong afterwards ?

[vegetta]

thanks guys for all ur replies , some interesting ideas listed i hadn't thought about

[sealhunta]

the only bad thing is u might have to dish out 20 bucks in quaters before u can see ur self improving vs the top players in ur arcade

[vegetta]

the only bad thing is u might have to dish out 20 bucks in quaters before u can see ur self improving vs the top players in ur arcade

heh probably even more since when i do most of my playing at home i use my hrap
and at the arcade i visit it's a happ stick american layout buttons.

i was even considering investing in a MAS stick so i can practice on that too but i don't know....

[R | C]

I think eventually, it's practically impossible to improve on your own. If it's anything you can improve on your own it'd probably be things like execution, counter pokes, combos, setups, etc.

But when it comes to things like zoning, mind games, mix ups, seeing flaws in your play style, it's very necessary to find a human to practice against.

Also, getting used to participating in tournaments is something that's often overlooked. Many people get nervous at big tournaments because they're not conditioned to play in high pressure situations.

[Grits'N'Gravy]

Just play everybody you can.

It's probably better to play better players, but if somebody is way above your level you can't figure out why you lost. I think it's best to play against players you can sometimes beat, unlike somebody who will always smash you.

Then move up to the guys that just fuck you up.

Personally, I think the only game you can "learn" on your own is ST, depending on your style of play.

[Keits]

Just play everybody you can.

It's probably better to play better players, but if somebody is way above your level you can't figure out why you lost. I think it's best to play against players you can sometimes beat, unlike somebody who will always smash you.

Then move up to the guys that just fuck you up.

Personally, I think the only game you can "learn" on your own is ST, depending on your style of play.

Also, if you cant figure out why you lost, ask. You may have just been beaten by someone willing to help you reach his level so that HE can get more serious competition out of you.

[free]

I get better by mimicking better players styles. So I watch alot of Japanese tournament videos and the like.

[catchafire]

I think Popoblo can weigh in on this. He basically practices on his own, get's far in tourneys, and then get's owned.

[Mixup]

i haven't read all the posts, just wanted to add(sorry if i am repeating old posts..)

play against the beasts all day, nobody else.

nothing can benefit u more than having people who push u to learn priority, spacing, patience, match-ups and so on.

playing vs weaker players will allow you chances to win the game where u might not vs top comp. this is pretty misleading and can lead to you as a player wasting ur time.

If you're losing EVERY game, GREAT, that means you have alot to work with(test ur moves vs the moves that they are hitting u with over and over, some games practice ur defence and blocking while they rush u down)

when you're forced into careful play and forced to execute because of high lvl comp, you'll learn more about the engine and the ways that you can adapt to individual players.

a bum with msp for example will give you too many chances to hurt his psylocke, while it's funny to blow her up....It's definetly not teaching you how nasty that can be when used carefully.

take ur beatings with a smile and appreciate the fact u have some concrete players to base your game off of.

keep in mind, losing a match is only a loss when you didn't learn from what took place in that 1 game. focus on ur mistakes and nothing else, you'll improve quickly.

also get ur defense up so you can have an easier time reading your opponents style.

ummm, one more thing, if you want somone to teach u, show them that u can listen and implement their advice, a good player will recognize that and show u whats good.

[Storming Flower]

^Good point, but how do you explain how the top players got good before there were top players, like Rowtron, who nobody heard of, until he came to california and beat down everybody. It's not like he came down to california, got beat by the top players and became a top player himself, he came to california and regulated.

[De4dEyE]

^Good point, but how do you explain how the top players got good before there were top players, like Rowtron, who nobody heard of, until he came to california and beat down everybody. It's not like he came down to california, got beat by the top players and became a top player himself, he came to california and regulated.

Because the Seattle guys are monsters.. he already had crazy comp even before becoming known.

[Rob2_0]

or can you learn more getting destroyed by someone thats alot better than yourself ?




thats how i learned 3rd strike(actually thats how i learned most fighters ive played. its always the same person slaying me in each game though.)

[ChaosNightWolf]

I agree both..because you may get beaten by a scrub because of one reason- INEXPOSURE.

Inexposure to a scrub style of play or a scrub mentality can beat you if you are not prepared..

Why?

Think about it..you think high level all the time and the scrub might be hella random..not falling for your tricks and mindgames because they are JUST MASHING...whereas high level players would...

And other things..but to be good you gotta see different styles..the more you see the better you become..

You are my hero, you will be quoted

[Mixah]

I agree with CNW. Dark Geese wins that shit down.

[woof]

i haven't read all the posts, just wanted to add(sorry if i am repeating old posts..)

play against the beasts all day, nobody else.

nothing can benefit u more than having people who push u to learn priority, spacing, patience, match-ups and so on.

playing vs weaker players will allow you chances to win the game where u might not vs top comp. this is pretty misleading and can lead to you as a player wasting ur time.

If you're losing EVERY game, GREAT, that means you have alot to work with(test ur moves vs the moves that they are hitting u with over and over, some games practice ur defence and blocking while they rush u down)

when you're forced into careful play and forced to execute because of high lvl comp, you'll learn more about the engine and the ways that you can adapt to individual players.

a bum with msp for example will give you too many chances to hurt his psylocke, while it's funny to blow her up....It's definetly not teaching you how nasty that can be when used carefully.

take ur beatings with a smile and appreciate the fact u have some concrete players to base your game off of.

keep in mind, losing a match is only a loss when you didn't learn from what took place in that 1 game. focus on ur mistakes and nothing else, you'll improve quickly.

also get ur defense up so you can have an easier time reading your opponents style.

ummm, one more thing, if you want somone to teach u, show them that u can listen and implement their advice, a good player will recognize that and show u whats good.
well said! :tup:

[True Grave]

I don't think playing others at your skill level will help much. Two guys at the same level probably won't learn much at all from playing one another, other than learning to counter their own newbie skills.

Playing others who are Better than you is the best learning experience. As well as just sitting back, watching others play, and paying attention to what they do.

[-=KOH=-]

You definitely need to find someone at a higher level of skill to gauge your own.

[True Grave]

You definitely need to find someone at a higher level of skill to gauge your own.

Yeah when i'm trying to learn newer characters and make the best of their abilities, i can't be entirely confident in it till i test the character against real players.

Testing myself against newbs or others at my particular level does not prove much, other than being able to just 'get-by'.

[Chuck Norris]

This thread is owns...........
Nothing gets as annoying to reflect upon as the good ol' nub " kick + sweep" tho, with a shoto.

[Keits]

I think Popoblo can weigh in on this. He basically practices on his own, get's far in tourneys, and then get's owned.

Popoblo learned, initially, from playing me and Team Cincy. Vastly superior players at the time. Now, he is probably 2nd best in that area now (cincinnati tri state area), maybe best.

[Mixup]

^Good point, but how do you explain how the top players got good before there were top players, like Rowtron, who nobody heard of, until he came to california and beat down everybody. It's not like he came down to california, got beat by the top players and became a top player himself, he came to california and regulated.

Everyone has their own progression level, some players pick up on things that are really effective before everyone else(Viscant shines from that angle).
Early in the game the execution gap between mid level and top was pretty high too. multiple chances vs one touch death:rofl: who's gonna get lucky first?

I'd get away with winning matches years back simply because i did a combo and another dood missed his. jon sindel simply made up his mind that he was going to block everything and then every magneto he fought never hit him, top player after top player(jmar vs jon unreleased pool footage from ecc9 has like 5 tech hits in one game...stupid lvl defense). He had a gameplan for safety so his approach was simply more controlled and efficient. I think it takes an independent approach to the game to take advantage of all the different options, some people were raw innovators, Seattle changed the tiers with one advancement in sentinels combo ability. With fast fly he had another counter angle to take off 50%+ easy with one touch.

some people are just cheap:sweat:

it's easy to forget that everyone who learned how to dominate had to take a loss waaaay before they got that W.

I wonder what most og players would list as their first squads, back then everyone picked stupid teams all the time. Seattle upgrading the Robot was a fucking problem. Every mofo from there would have a crackheaded robot runnin wild on everyone at nationals. We asked the seattle crew one time who figured it out and kuan and rat both claimed it:looney:

my point is that when characters get power up comparative to the rest of the cast, it's pretty logical to assume somone who's mastered them will dominate too.

marvel is crazy to this day, shoultzula figured out crazy shit with the robot earlier this week... people are crazy when they claim the game is figured out..

how to cross up a sprite so the game forgets to correct which defensive position is correct?

another question i had to ask him

why are both characters facing the same direction?

Making shit up is a pretty nasty tool to have on your side.

[Ephidel]

For me, not really. I can get pounded many times and learn different tactics.

[vegetta]

so last night i took your guys advice and played everyone i could at arcade, rather than quit after getting really worked over i'd rematch again and again and eventually did start seeing some patterns and learning and sneaked in a win here and there.

most of the real good players were cool with playing me and even though i'd get worked i'd joke with them and take the loss with a smile. But there was one guy who after he beat me and i rematched him gave me alot of shit and like "How dare you play me again" type attitude. He beat me again and i walked away cause i just wasnt sure how to deal with that kinda situation. I'd understand if there was another player behind me waiting to get on but there wasnt.
Was i wrong walking away like that, I wanted to keep playing him but I didnt want to get into with the guy.


thx again for all you guys posts it's helped alot and given me more insight

[Henaki]

once you learn how to play the game and understand why really good people are beating you then its better to play people who can kick your ass. but generally play people your skill level and get a wakeup call as often as you can against the best players.

[shoultzula]

marvel is too deep

[De4dEyE]

so last night i took your guys advice and played everyone i could at arcade, rather than quit after getting really worked over i'd rematch again and again and eventually did start seeing some patterns and learning and sneaked in a win here and there.

most of the real good players were cool with playing me and even though i'd get worked i'd joke with them and take the loss with a smile. But there was one guy who after he beat me and i rematched him gave me alot of shit and like "How dare you play me again" type attitude. He beat me again and i walked away cause i just wasnt sure how to deal with that kinda situation. I'd understand if there was another player behind me waiting to get on but there wasnt.
Was i wrong walking away like that, I wanted to keep playing him but I didnt want to get into with the guy.


thx again for all you guys posts it's helped alot and given me more insight

Get better and whoop his ass. Best thing to do. Fool will probably make up excuses or some shit, but if you're lucky, guy will go crazy and waste $$ to beat you.

[Robust]

easy

[spudlyff8fan]

I can beat my siblings in 3S solely with shoryukens :(

[avjgtfusion]

yes. ryu in 3s said so.

but seriously, to learn i think its best to play with someone at your skill level. I think your game evolves faster that way. Familiraizing yourself with the game engine is best when you are not hanging on for your dear life against someone much better than you. Eventually two people at equal level find new ways to beat eachother and add to their arsenal. It has to be someone thats equal, but also willing to improve i think.

i think its always good to play a better player once a while, to gauge progress and maybe pick up new things, but like i said it's hard when you get beat so fast you can't even analyze what is happening.

[avjgtfusion]

so last night i took your guys advice and played everyone i could at arcade, rather than quit after getting really worked over i'd rematch again and again and eventually did start seeing some patterns and learning and sneaked in a win here and there.

most of the real good players were cool with playing me and even though i'd get worked i'd joke with them and take the loss with a smile. But there was one guy who after he beat me and i rematched him gave me alot of shit and like "How dare you play me again" type attitude. He beat me again and i walked away cause i just wasnt sure how to deal with that kinda situation. I'd understand if there was another player behind me waiting to get on but there wasnt.
Was i wrong walking away like that, I wanted to keep playing him but I didnt want to get into with the guy.


thx again for all you guys posts it's helped alot and given me more insight

nah i dont think you should take it so personally. when a good player is beasting, he usually looks kinda pissed off and may come off as arrogant, but thats part of the mindset that works best in fighting games in my opinion. if he actually said something to you, then that's different, but i think you should just keep playing no matter what. The only thing that really annoys me is when better players bring their friends along to be their personal cheerleaders/shit talkers, it really distracts me.

[VR-Fist]

Yeah exactly you need to play scrubs and high level..but dont play scrubs all the time the truth..

Play more high level than not..but you dont want to be surprised getting beaten by a scrub because you couldnt adapt to scrub play in a tournament..and its happened to all of us it seems..

Lesson to be learned!!!

You're like my heart talking. Anyway I agree with Henaki. This is a nice thread, it's like casual talk but seems to help.

My opinion is that the best way is to play slightly better player than you are. It's not bad to play someone worse, you need to win sometime over someone :pleased:

[Marty]

I think reverting to playing against "scrubs" can be helpful. Especially if you're just up and coming. If you can imagine your average pro video watcher, they'll tell you that pros don't sit and use shoto sweep all day, but whether they can tell you WHY they don't do that is another matter entirely.

[Sex)packets]

when you get your ass beat by better players, you will start rising above people at your skill level.

play the better players, lose, and take some knowledge away from that. you will start to own ppl that are at your level.

[RockCho]

Actually playing scrubs helps you too in the confidence department. Getting wins and streaks will give you confidence against stronger players which in the long run will let you relax and play your game rather than be all "gosh golly he/she's so much better than me!"

[Bplus]

I'm not a pro, but hopefully my input will still help you out (even if just a little bit). I think that consistently playing better players is very important but I think playing those that are at or near your level may be just as important. I notice that when I play with my friends, we'll go in with our characters, patterns and tactics but by the end of the day will have often made changes depending on our progress. When playing with friends (even if you're the same level), I find that you make each other better players in the long run because it gets competitive. You push each other.

I also think experimentation is important. Of course you should watch the best matches and players- trying to get down what they do, but don't feel like you have to do EVERYTHING that they pull off. I like to take what works for me and use that as a stepping stone to see what I can come up with as well. For example, I play Faust in GG and while not being pro, I'm quite good I'd say. Most of the time, you see Faust players use his hover but I don't because I personally don't like the idea of focusing on the most technical things (or maybe I'm just lazy;). However, at Evo2k6, although losing to them beforehand, I was able to take a match on Ken-I and Deuce in casuals. So again, study what the best do, take from that what works for you and grow from there.

[Robust]

playing scrubs = developing terrible habits.

[RockCho]

playing scrubs = developing terrible habits.
That's ONLY if you play NOTHING but scrubs. If it's a healthy mix of someone your ability with scrubs, it'll help you out in the long run is all I'm saying. ;P

I mean... look at boxing for instance. If a high profile boxer loses, or even if a champ is on a streak, they usually set up cannon fodder to tune him up and or work out kinks as well as build up confidence! =)

[kingfismit]

gotta walk before you run

[Robust]

engulfing scrubs with superior tactics and skills is only enjoyable to a certain extent. After you have eclipsed greatness, nothing is really fun except learning from other players whom you feel are on your level. Achieving perfection is all your should strive for. Comparing yourself relative to others is important, but always strive to beat the best. The best experience you can ever have is in tournaments. If you're not a tournament player; you'll never become as good/great as those who enter. Nothing is a better wake-up call than going 0-2 in a tournament. Also, it addresses all the areas for improvement that people have been posting: it has various levels of competition (both high and low), pressure situations that require exection (or clutch), pride on the line, instant results of progress, and an overall report of how "good" you are as a player. Watching the tournament also helps improve, as you can see all the current top-tactics and how they're implemented in actual game scenarios.

[SRKev]

engulfing scrubs with superior tactics and skills is only enjoyable to a certain extent. After you have eclipsed greatness, nothing is really fun except learning from other players whom you feel are on your level. Achieving perfection is all your should strive for. Comparing yourself relative to others is important, but always strive to beat the best. The best experience you can ever have is in tournaments. If you're not a tournament player; you'll never become as good/great as those who enter. Nothing is a better wake-up call than going 0-2 in a tournament. Also, it addresses all the areas for improvement that people have been posting: it has various levels of competition (both high and low), pressure situations that require exection (or clutch), pride on the line, instant results of progress, and an overall report of how "good" you are as a player. Watching the tournament also helps improve, as you can see all the current top-tactics and how they're implemented in actual game scenarios.

I agree completely. I went into my first tourney at San Jose State dripping with swag. But when I placed 7/10, I knew that much work had to be done. It was only through dedication and coming to get my ass whooped day in and day out that I became the player that I am today.

[Marty]

when you get your ass beat by better players, you will start rising above people at your skill level.

play the better players, lose, and take some knowledge away from that. you will start to own ppl that are at your level.

Don't you were meant you'll start owning people who are at the skill level you were?

[polarity]

Pretty much what DandyJ said...plus, fighting noobs is generally a better way to improve your combo/attack string execution. If you're trying to learn a whole new character and you're totally new to his mixups and combos, it's going to be a big struggle to do anything against a high level player...but you'll get more used to your character if you are fighting a weaker opponent.

That said, this can also result in the problem of thinking your mixups are useful because they work on your weaker opponent, when in reality they would get owned by a high level player.

Generally if I want to pick up a new character, I either find an opponent that I know is very good with them and try to pick up things, or just watch match videos. Watching the match videos is probably more reliable, unless you can find an opponent as good as those people.

I'm late but I have to disagree with this. We seem to have this theory fighter generation now where if it's not in a Japanese match video it's not worth using. It's true that those videos do (usually) represent the highest level of play in whatever game, but to say it's better to watch them than learn from your actual opposition is fucking ridiculous.

The beauty of fighting games is that there's no set way of playing, and you have to tailor your play style to your opposition. People have already mentioned high level strategies not working on scrubs, but it's more complex than that simple dichotomy - there's more levels than just "high level" and "scrub", and each of those levels has strategies that will work against players on your own level but not against lower level players (because they don't possess the required knowledge for the strategy to work) or higher level players (because they know how to beat the strategy 100%). "the problem of thinking your mixups are useful because they work on your weaker opponent"? That's fucking ridiculous, if it works on a weaker opponent then it WORKS. Of course you have to be able to draw the distinction between a player it will work on and a player it won't, but to avoid using it entirely because it won't work against high-level opponents is the definition of Theory Fighter.

Sure, try to pick stuff up from match videos, but if you're not playing super-high-level Japanese players yourself (and most of us aren't) don't fool yourself into thinking you're any better a player by XCOPYing shit you saw in Japanese videos and ignoring supposedly "low level" strategies that nevertheless WORK at your level of play.

[queen of combat]

I always like to play against people that are better than me to learn. Like they say-learn from your mistakes. If they are the same skill level,its fun but I don't learn anything.

[Dark Geese]

Polarity- For once I gotta agree with you..that's worthy of some positive rep there.

Excellent post by you and Robust.

No one tells me how to play my SNK games...I use vids as like a support base..NOT the be all end all of how to play..after all why limit yourself to just one way of playing?

Though the Japanese are good you should be watching EVERYONE..you can learn something from everyone..

And yes this Theory Fighter Generation sucks... :tdown:

Dont try to tell that to Emil though because he has said "He knows what the top players are thinking by watching the vids". :rolleyes: :rofl:

But thats another story NOT worth getting into.

[Sex)packets]

Don't you were meant you'll start owning people who are at the skill level you were?

yeah thats what i meant.

[n8archer_XI]

and those people getting owned will gradually get better (it's a cycle, people)...

[Dark Geese]

Some do some dont..it isnt neccesarily a cycle..

Some give up..some cant handle hard work...

They regress to Casual players..and expect you to hand them shit for free..

:tdown:

[nothingxs]

some cant handle hard work...

some people leave it at what it is: a game. i suppose if people had the means to dedicate themselves to it almost nonstop, they'd do it, but you can't always do that...

[Ki Shima]

polarity- i agree 100%


i remember near the end of last year at the arcades i beat a top japanese player (cant remember who), we both were using ken on 3s and i managed to win and i dont even use ken, but only cos im happy wen im constructively inventive and always randomly persistant

the problem is, ther needs to be a structure to rely on for numerous reasons, main reason being its faithful to what makes the game fun.

it will always be this way till fighting games become a focused genre in the business

[Emil]

I'm late but I have to disagree with this. We seem to have this theory fighter generation now where if it's not in a Japanese match video it's not worth using. It's true that those videos do (usually) represent the highest level of play in whatever game, but to say it's better to watch them than learn from your actual opposition is fucking ridiculous.

I don't think it's rediculous, unless your opposition happens to be as good as the people you're watching in videos (then yes, it's probably better to learn from playing them than just watching). If you ignore the high level play and only learn from the much worse competition that you play against, then you're going to mislead about the general way in which some games need to be played...like thinking jump HK, sweep is the best strategy ever and then have everything come crashing down on you when you fight someone better.

Might as well learn from all sources available to you, instead of limiting yourself to just your own competition.

"the problem of thinking your mixups are useful because they work on your weaker opponent"? That's fucking ridiculous, if it works on a weaker opponent then it WORKS.

I'll give you the very obvious example of trying to use Ralf's qcfx2+P in kof2k2...possibly the worst move ever given to any character in any game (I could be wrong though). It's going to hit noobs, and that's all. That move is completely useless in high level play, I don't see how anyone can disagree with not ever using Ralf's qcfx2+P. That and Leona's qcb+P in kof98.

Sure, try to pick stuff up from match videos, but if you're not playing super-high-level Japanese players yourself (and most of us aren't) don't fool yourself into thinking you're any better a player by XCOPYing shit you saw in Japanese videos and ignoring supposedly "low level" strategies that nevertheless WORK at your level of play.

btw, I wouldn't call it XCOPYing if you really understand why they are doing it...

And I never really said to not use weaker strategies that happen to work on your opponent...but, it's possible some players will get too accustomed to using those anti-scrub strategies, that they will adopt bad habits that could be really hard to break...for example, the guys that think rolls in kof are the best thing ever...or better example, the guys on Head to Head who only hit the HK button.

I use vids as like a support base..NOT the be all end all of how to play..after all why limit yourself to just one way of playing?

On the contrary, high level match videos open your eyes to great new strategies you would have probably never thought existed.

[Slide]

Mixup, Robust, and Polarity, great posts.

IMO, By definition playing opponents at your current skill level will only sharpen what's already there, it won't "improve" anything. However, it builds a foundation, something that keeps your game stable at THAT level.

It's only good if one is slightly better than the other at each given set. That way you know EASILY how and why you lost the match. You and your opponent are both stacking bricks climbing them one after the other.

Think of it as a see-saw, wait no, better yet.. a balancing scale. Someone's skill has to outweigh another in order for both to move.

Also, don't try to jump immediately to what you see in match videos from Japan or whatever. They worked their way to that level and style, and built their strategy's foundation behind that. They didn't immediately jump to that level.

We have our OWN fucking level and who's to say that theirs is better or ours is better? It's just different. Difference between all of it is that the winners have a better foundation and grasp on their level of play than the next guy. More variety at their same skill level, and yours, making them more solid than you.

Someone helps you up the side of a building cause you couldn't climb it with your own staircase or ladder. You'll come crashing down due to lack of your own support. Playing someone that's better than you, they'll toss you in the air, but who or what is going to keep you up there after that?

And finally, sometimes playing people at a lower level can give you missing steps or pieces so your game doesn't fall apart.

Everyone's gameplay is valid.

------------

Variety is key.
I'm not a top player in anything, want to know why? Because I lack competitive variety, and experience in it.

^it's not by choice though. Circumstances are just unfortunate for me.

[Mokura]

I think you'll need ppl to get better too, but I think it's possible to do a lot more on your own that ppl think. I don't believe that all you're able to do on your own is mooch, but doing more would require some real individual effort. Let's say you're playing someone so you can mooch a strategy. Where did it come from? Somewhere WAY down the line somebody must have figured it out or it was just luck in the first place, doing the right thing at the right time. But if someone DID figure it out, then I believe you can be one of these, one of the no-names who lay the foundation for the way the game is played, whatever game it is.

[n8archer_XI]

You can hone your techniques on your own; it's called training. But no matter how much training you do, there's a limit to your personal skills (w/o opponents). There's most likely someone (or ones) out there who simply has more natural skill than you. Those are the people you need to play to get better...

[Vynce]

My friend Jose and I have always been around the same skill-level. I took a renewed interest in fighting games last year, and he just recently got back into it himself. We've made it a point to get together and play every monday for a few weeks. More and more, as he practices in my absense, he was getting the best of me. Naturally, I went back to the drawing board and started working on my combos and forming new strategies.

He and I are definitely at the same level, but playing against him more recently has made me a better player. I'm just now starting to "get it." Playing against people of all levels has some benefit to it, in my opinion. Although, I don't usually take much away from whupping my not-even-casual buddies.

Incidentally, and off-topic, I think people can improve their execution simply by playing SNK games routinely.

[Corner-Trap]

Fight peeps above your level if you really want to improve.

[arstal]

I think it's more important to fight a variety of competent opponents, then it is to fight high skill opponents. The more variety you face, the more prepared you'll be for that gimmick user you run into in tournies... Competent depends on your skill level. If you see the same thing over and over, you'll just learn how to fight that. Of course, if the game is poorly designed and has strictly defined tiers, like many fighters- skill level becomes the main thing. The better designed fighters rely more on char matchups, and there variety is important.

[magnus]

Personally, I agree with the post made by Mixup and Potter. I feel that you will only excel by playing high level competition and taking those beat downs every now and then. However, I also feel that you can still learn from scrubby players (i.e. execution and set-up variations). Being that I primarily play Marvel, I can only vouche for that game.

It is truely depending on the type of game that you play, as each has it's own gameplay and tactics. Furthermore, playing only scrubby players will only excel you to a level just above them. As Potter said, you will probably get stomped on and go 0-2 if you never play tournament players that have exceled their game.

[n8archer_XI]

I think it's more important to fight a variety of competent opponents, then it is to fight high skill opponents. The more variety you face, the more prepared you'll be for that gimmick user you run into in tournies... Competent depends on your skill level. If you see the same thing over and over, you'll just learn how to fight that. Of course, if the game is poorly designed and has strictly defined tiers, like many fighters- skill level becomes the main thing. The better designed fighters rely more on char matchups, and there variety is important.We must remember, however, that playing opponents we know aren't as good as us does not make us better (more prepared, maybe)...

[vegetta]

i thought id share this since it relates to the topic, i recently got Sirlin's book here's what it says in regards to when first learning.........


"I know some players who, even at this early stage, wish to play only against expert players. I personally prefer to play against average and poor players for a bit, as a way to hone my skills of attacking effieciently. I think the important thing at this stage is simply to play as much as possible, regardless of the skill of your opponents. Familiarization with the game is paramount."

from "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin

[n8archer_XI]

Where can I download the "Bang the Machine" documentary?

[Arsenal]

GOD I feel you guys on that "watch out for scrubs, the random junk might get a win."

I've been beaten by mashers and scrubs before in 3S. Not a good feeling. I'm going for tick throws, they're mashing out supers.

[tataki]

when starting a new character or game you should play vs a bad rival that will give you enough space to practice. vs a good player 2 mistakes and you die. so there's no room for much practice there.

and if something works use it, even if you know it won't work at high levels. why? cuz you and your rival need to adapt to it and find the reason why it doesn't work for better players. or else a high level player will be like "lol he didn't adapt and learn to block this overhead on reaction... brainless win for me!"
in the end you do need to play like in the match vids, since it's the most effective way ppl found so far, but there are no shortcuts on the way there. you need to learn how to handle with all the low level bullshit along the way, so you and your rival should use whatever wierd ass tactic you find until it stops working.

GOD I feel you guys on that "watch out for scrubs, the random junk might get a win."

I've been beaten by mashers and scrubs before in 3S. Not a good feeling. I'm going for tick throws, they're mashing out supers.
yeah your good habits are bad in those battles. so just sit back, defend and watch your opponent. let him show you his stupidity and use that against him.
archtype that shit down!