Installing an LED in clear Seimitsu buttons?

[Bomberman]

I'm so close to finishing my latest stick. Wiring it up now... I have these clear Seimitsu buttons and I was thinking that it'd be fun to put some LEDs into them. Does anyone know if this is possible and how I would go about it? If I can't get the LED inside the button, I'll probably just glue it beneath the button or something.

[A.C]

isn't the micro-switch in the way?

[Toodles]

if you're using small 3mm LEDs, you can probably find a place on the side to drill a small hole and insert them without getting in the way of the operation, but it wont be an even glow; the microswitch with block a lot of it, making the side with the led glow brighter.

Just take a button all the way apart and try to figure out the best place for an LED.

[chippermonky]

I'd just hot glue like 20 leds around each button as opposed to inside. By 20 I mean like 2-3. It looks nice regardless of whether the LEDs are inside or outside the button cuz you still get light.

[Numbski]

Actually, here's a thought:

Rather than 2-3 leds, just use 1 HID (high intensity discharge) LED, then wrap the bottom of each button plus the LED with the reflective side of aluminum foil. Use heat shrink tubing on your wires/switch contacts to prevent the foil from shorting out your wiring.

[Bomberman]

Numbski, that is a great answer, although too costly and complicated. I just checked, and I can indeed fit 2 LEDs inside of a 30 mm button. The connectors simply extend through the snap-in slots of the button. It's gonna look cool!

[Rob2_0]

Numbski, that is a great answer, although too costly and complicated. I just checked, and I can indeed fit 2 LEDs inside of a 30 mm button. The connectors simply extend through the snap-in slots of the button. It's gonna look cool!

that shit sounds hot. i hope you can post up photos.

[Bomberman]

Thanks for the kind words! :lovin: I'm 95% done now...

One last question. Does anyone know how I can make an LED light up only when a button is pressed? I would like the Xbox 360 Guide button to light up when pressed.

[Banthur]

you might be able to use a transistor if there is a common ground shared between the buttons and the driving source for the LED

[Bomberman]

Update: 1 3mm LED should be fine, and it shouldn't really need a Resistor since most 3mm Green LEDs are rated around 3v and all you're gonna get from the controller is 3v max anyway, around 2.7v or so if ya use the PnC battery pack.

So I got a 360 controller guru to show me where to solder the LED's wires to... No extra hardware needed, thank goodness. But I'd already closed the stick back up! Oy, more work ahead of me.

[Numbski]

Was just going to say something along those lines. Pushbuttons are spst switches, which means "single pole, single throw". You're closing a single circuit. You want them to close two circuits (one that registers the button press, one that lights up your LED), so if you can get away with connecting one leg to the switch, and the other leg to a power source, and then connect the power source to the second pin of the pushbutton, awesome. The problem as I see it there is that the power source is backfeeding your controller circuit, which would worry me about damanage. A resistor may or may not be needed, as you said. If 3V won't harm the controller circuit, then what I said above should fix you up.

[Banthur]

yeah I would not try any configuration that risked backfeeding whatever the controller is hooked up too on the live side of the button; you will need a resistor to run any LED without frying it


on a side note, did the guy you talked to show you how to hook it up to light on press or just always be on?

[Numbski]

I think that's what he was referring to, and that's what I was saying about wiring it up. So here's the wiring I'd say to go with:

button pin 1--->LED leg 1--->(LED)-->LED leg 2-->resistor-->power supply +---->power supply - ---->button pin 2

That would light it up on-press, and protect your console....I think? Anyone want to confirm?

[Mikei]

I'll test it out tonight. I have some extra LEDs lying about.

[Demon Dash]

Looking forward to seeing the result...

[Bomberman]

Any luck, Mikei? I don't usually share my secret tech stuff (heh), but here is the image my source provided:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h201/eastx/360%20tech%20stuff/GuideLight.jpg

The red spot is positive and the blue spot is a ground spot (you could use any working ground spot).

Apparently this will cause the LED to light when Guide is pressed. I don't think I even have to connect it to the actual button. Will try it later tonight!

[Banthur]

I think that's what he was referring to, and that's what I was saying about wiring it up. So here's the wiring I'd say to go with:

button pin 1--->LED leg 1--->(LED)-->LED leg 2-->resistor-->power supply +---->power supply - ---->button pin 2

That would light it up on-press, and protect your console....I think? Anyone want to confirm?

that would light it up on press but would also backfeed the control system

if you wanted to use a controller other than the 360 (which apparently has a custom way of doing it) this is how I would do it:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/Banthur/button_on_down-1.jpg

revised circuit.. no longer req common ground (edit); this would only put a very small load on the control system and would never backfeed power into it.

edit: it looks like he did recommend putting the LED into straight series with the button's control system. did he mention if you would need a resistor on that line too? there is a small chance this would cause the guide button to stop working depending on how the controller was setup but I'll assume whoever you talked too knows more about 360 electronics than I

[Numbski]

The "transistor" in that diagram is just the LED itself, right?

IE, in a stick you put one leg to your ground (or common ground?) and the other gets wired into the switch? ???

I really need to learn to read diagrams and do some project boxes. This is an old annoyance of mine. I can code some, do all sorts of computing mods, but I can't handle a simple circuit diagram. :\

[Banthur]

no, the transistor is a discrete part in and of itself; basically its function is an electrical switch: when the button is open; no current is allowed to flow from V+ to ground so the LED is off. However, when the button is closed then current flows from the controller system to ground (through the middle leg and the arrow-leg of the transistor); this opens an electronic path for the LED's current (V+ -> ground).

I know my explanation is crude.. it's basically an electronic switch as opposed to mechanical, controlled by current instead of physics.

http://www.technologystudent.com/elec1/transis1.htm

that page has some diagrams that might make it more clear.. keep in mind the "0v" on his diagram is essentially the same thing as ground..


Other notes about this: you would want to test the current flow through the button during its on state to select an appropriate transistor (ie one that won't get fried) although I don't think it would be too high for most parts

[Bomberman]

Well, the 360 tech guru said he didn't believe it'd need transistors or resistors. He does indeed know the 360 controller tech better than any non-MS employee.
Should I get one anyway? How much are they and what stats would I look for at Radio Shack??

[Banthur]

If he knows what he's talking about I wouldn't put stuff you don't need into it

[Toodles]

Damnit Bomberman, you would choose the hardest system to do that with :)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/360%20Controller%20180/DiagramWireless.jpg
The Xbox360 doesnt use common grounds. It uses a matrix setup, and if you're reading this, you should know that already. Its also all analog. Damnit.

But damnit you want the LED to light only then the button is pressed. Okey day.

See the parts marked D6, D8, D10, etc in the picture above? If the DOA4 stick is any indication, they are just a funky packaging for pairs of diodes. I checked the orientation of the diodes, and it means the higher voltage lines are the ones on top, and the lower voltage lines are on bottom.

1- Ghetto quick way: +5v----resistor----LED----(spot between the button and the diode). If Im right and it cycles through the bottom wires, each being ground for a spell, then the LED will have a complete circuit and light up when the button is checked by the xbox360 pcb. (it'll be so fast that it'll look dim, but not flashing)
2-Slightly better way: (spot between diode and button)----|>o----Resistor---LED---Ground
the |>o is an inverter, like the 7404. Going this route will still be dim because it will only be low when the xbox checks the button, but it will not cause any current to flow through those traces. Safer for the life of the xbox controller
3- Harder better way: Using an Analog switch:

(xbox pcb button part 1)-----|MAX4611 switch|
(xbox pcb button part 2)-----|Output IN|----------+-------(pullup resistor)----+5v
|
GND----Button---+-----LED---Resistor----+5v

That pushes no extra current through the PCB itself, and the LED will be on the entire time the button is pressed.

EDIT: The part about the LEDs being dim may be wrong, at least for the buttons that go to orage, red, and blue/white. According to that picture, they're connected to real ground via a resistor/cap pair. I can't swear the first two methods will work, but I can that the third one will. You're just going to have to test.

[Banthur]

what do you mean when you say it's all analog?

[Toodles]

All of the buttons are analog. It can tell how hard you're pressing on them.
Just as an example, look at the 'A' button.

Voltage
Resistor One (the actuall push button. Harder you press, less resistance)
Test Point
Resistor Two (R23 for the A button)
Ground

It acts as a voltage divider, just like a potentiometer. The voltage at the test point is increased as the resistance of the button decreases. Luckily we don't have to worry too much about it here since he is using a microswitch. The PCB will just think the button is pushed down REALLY hard.

[Bomberman]

Wow Toodles. Thanks for putting some thought into this.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=512342

You're sure the guy who made that diagram and figured out all the traces and such didn't tell me the best way to light the Guide button? He did say it'd be a lot easier to do Back, Guide, and Start since they work differently than the other controller buttons.

[Banthur]

ah, didn't realize all the 360 buttons were like that. at any rate does the MAX4611 offer advantages over a simple transistor solution? I'm not sure I understand your circuit-text. And where are the start and guide buttons? Are back/sync configured differently (they have no lower resistor)? Are the top wires in that diagram +V?

In related news, why does microsoft always seek to make life hard?

edit: linked page answers guide/start button question kind of

[Toodles]

Wow Toodles. Thanks for putting some thought into this.

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=512342

You're sure the guy who made that diagram and figured out all the traces and such didn't tell me the best way to light the Guide button? He did say it'd be a lot easier to do Back, Guide, and Start since they work differently than the other controller buttons.

Oh damn, you're only wanting to light up the Guide button? Ah hell, then go for it. I though you wanted all of the play buttons that way.
Forget what I said then, I was thinking for the analog buttons :blush:

With that said, I do have a problem with the pic you posted. It shows the guide and start button connected on the bottom, which I assume is ground; use a multimeter and double check that for me if you would. See if its connected to that ground point he pointed out. If so, then the LED would be shorting guide button. With the guide button pressed, all of the current between those two points would go through the button and not through the LED. ASSUMING (and its a big assumption) that that positive source can provide the 15-20mA or so of power, then the LED would be on as long as the guide button wasnt pressed. It would make more sense, if the bottom connected pads were true ground, to wire it up like this:
+5v---resistor--LED---(point he marked as positive on the picture).
That way, only when the button was pressed, the current would flow to ground and light the LED.

I'm NOT trying to question RDC; the guy is a stud, and there could easily be some part there that Im not aware of. Don't be afraid to try what he said, but I think he'd understand why I have iffy thoughts on the picture.

If you only care about the lighting guide button, why not just remove one of the four surface mount LEDs from the board, and connect your LEDs there?

[Bomberman]

+5v---resistor--LED---(point he marked as positive on the picture).
That way, only when the button was pressed, the current would flow to ground and light the LED.

Can you recommend what kind of resistor I'll need? I have a 10 K resistor I could use. Not sure what way to face it, either.


If you only care about the lighting guide button, why not just remove one of the four surface mount LEDs from the board, and connect your LEDs there?

I'm glad you asked that question. Well, my 6 action buttons are clear, right? So I removed the 4 LEDs that normally surround the Guide button, and placed new corresponding LEDs inside of the X, Y, B, and A buttons. In other words, when the controller is player 1, the X button on the joystick will be lit up. My actual Guide button is clear too, so I thought I'd have that light when pressed.

[Demon Dash]

Less technical talk and more putting the LEDs in the buttons, thank you...

[Toodles]

Can you recommend what kind of resistor I'll need? I have a 10 K resistor I could use. Not sure what way to face it, either.
Depends on the LED, but somewhere between 220 and 330 Ohm should do it. 10K is way too high.


Less technical talk and more putting the LEDs in the buttons, thank you...The forum's called 'Tech Talk'. If you can't keep up, go to FGD.

[Bomberman]

Okay, I checked with RDC again (which I kind of shouldn't have because he doesn't like it) but I wasn't going to have a chance to install the LED until tonight anyway, so what the heck. His response:

His point is based on an assumption, you'd be done and have it working if you'd have done it already instead of double checking my work, which I tripe check before I post anywhere so I know it's right. The "common" connection is voltage, not ground.

So yeah, as long as I don't talk to my GF too long on the phone tonight, it gets finished and working tonight. :)

[Bomberman]

Okay, the Guide button light works perfectly. All the LEDs are kind of dim since this is a wireless stick and I didn't want to use too much power. Still, you can see 'em.

One last operation before the stick is finished... Adding LEDs to the Left and Right Bumper buttons (the 2 far right buttons on this stick) that will light when the Rumble motors are supposed to vibrate. Just gotta get a couple of resistors per RDC and Toodles' advice.

Pics coming Tuesday!

[Demon Dash]

So did you ever get this finnished? I'm interested in seeing the results, as I have Seimitsu PS-14-K's just sitting there...