Hank Aaron didn't need the juice.

[Taichi]

So why the fuck does Barry Bonds get to keep shitting on his legacy?

[Dasrik]

He's not. Nobody who's worth a damn cares.

[DS]

Why worry? A-Rod is destined to break the record with over 800 homeruns. As long as he doesn't pull a Griffey, he'll break it before turning 40.

[Sixshot]

lol, A-Rod

Bonds isn't '' shitting on his legacy '' tho.He's breaking his record.Juice or not.

[EvilSamurai]

If A-Rod's not on roids, then good luck to him. I am personally in favor of keeping Hank Aaron's name on the top of the home run list and banning Bonds for life from baseball along with all the other roiders. Want proof that Barry Bonds is a roid freak? His fucking head grew when he was an adult. Your head never grows when you are an adult (getting five chins doesn't count) unless you have some sort of pituitary problem/you are on HGH or roids. Barry Bonds does not have a pituitary disorder. I say ban for life.

[TornadoFlame]

No one's really showing him any attention really. I've seen more about Hank Aaron now then I have of Scary Bonds. I think this helps everyone appreciate Aaron more than ever now.

[Gimpy]

I'm upset he got that homer of my beloved Nationals. :sad: But at least we won the game. :rofl:

[Azrael]

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.

[AcEtUrNeDjOkEr]

At least they can stop showing the shitty Giants games on ESPN now...geez, nothing is worse then watching Barry Bonds anticipation and also a last place team

[Sixshot]

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.

Thank you.Turning yourself into a monster (metaphorically speaking) doesn't automatically mean you'd have the skill you'd need to do what you'd need to do.Maybe if you need to turn yourself into a monster to get the job done, then that's what you need to do.

I'm a Machiavellian.The end justifies the means.

Decepticon.

[Satomiblood]

I don't follow baseball. Don't plan on it. But what's the Giants' record?

[DS]

I don't follow baseball. Don't plan on it. But what's the Giants' record?


More losses than wins. Shattered dreams. As always.

[Biolink]

I liked Bonds more when he was in the Soriano mold.

Now I am scared to even look at him.

[orka]

sadaharu oh is still the real home run king

[Weeks]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the overwhelming majority of all sports players are juicing in one form or another.

Even with all the insanely intrusive controls they have for cycling (probably the most intense watchdogging of all sports - we're talking year-round officials knockin on your door and check-ins and tests and shit) you still get peeps every year busted for doping.

[Koop]

At least they can stop showing the shitty Giants games on ESPN now...geez, nothing is worse then watching Barry Bonds anticipation and also a last place team


hi five to you bro.... that is the truth.

[thurst]

half of the pitchers were probably juicing, but no one cares.

[Gimpy]

yeah, Koop's dancing ducky is more entertaining that a Giant's game (SF and NY:lol:) but someone the other day said something on the radio that was interesting and I agreed with them. He said that Barry pretty much messed himself up, not by juicing but basically being an asshole to the fans, the media, and other players. I feel that is he wasn't being a bitch to people then him breaking the record wouldn't be suck and "issue" and more of an event even if he was/is juicing.

[ssjbrydon]

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.



finally someone sees the light. steroids does not make your vision, reflexes, timing, hand speed, pitch recognition, and swing mechanics better. maybe you could argue he used the steroids to keep himself in shape, which would be the only argument.

baseball is such a corrupt sport with even more corrupted fans.

[Sixshot]

A certain amount of respect must be reserved for the old-schoolers like Hank who didn't juice, but too many players do it now.Honestly, I don't really care that much personally.Like I said, if a player thinks it'll help him hit the fucking ball harder/farther because he has more strength, he should go for it.If it's more important to him than his health I mean.

But he still has to be able to hit the fucking ball.I doubt teh juice could improve his accuracy in any way.

[sbw]

A-Rod, hopefully will beat it.

Otherwise, thank god he beat it and I hopefully will never, ever, ever, ever have to hear another word about Bonds again. /endthread/bonds

[Taichi]

on the plus side, the value of my Barry Bonds Rookie Card just went through the roof.

of course, I'll never sell my Jose Canseco Rookie, that thing is priceless to me.

[RockBogart]

Having cameras in your face all day everyday would make anyone an asshole. My friend tried to throw the "well if he wasn't an asshole, he wouldn't have cameras in his face" bull shit at me. I couldn't be a celebrity, because the moment I catch poperatzi on my property they catching 2 warning shots in the back. And the general consensus is that hes a nice normal guy OFF CAMERA. Which further supports my theory.

[Biolink]

How much do you think those cards are worth Taichi?

[Taichi]

prolly not a lot.

The Jose Canseco is a Donruss (The best Rookie is the Topps one), and it's a bit dogeared, I might get ten or twenty out of it.

the Bonds one is beat to fuck and back, I didn't take care of my shit when I was a kid.

[Gimpy]

Having cameras in your face all day everyday would make anyone an asshole. My friend tried to throw the "well if he wasn't an asshole, he wouldn't have cameras in his face" bull shit at me. I couldn't be a celebrity, because the moment I catch poperatzi on my property they catching 2 warning shots in the back. And the general consensus is that hes a nice normal guy OFF CAMERA. Which further supports my theory.




Tell that to Jeff Kent. :rofl:

[DS]

Barry uses, what, a 20 oz. bat? That's light compared to the other bats. He uses it to improve batspeed. As stated already, juicing just helps you work out more and when you increase in mass, you increase in power.


Having cameras in your face all day everyday would make anyone an asshole. My friend tried to throw the "well if he wasn't an asshole, he wouldn't have cameras in his face" bull shit at me.

No, he became an asshole because the cameras lined up AFTER the whole steroid issue became public. He wasn't AS famous when he was little Barry in the late 80s and early 90s. He was an accomplished hitter and was turning heads, but didn't get the acknowledgment he claimes to have deserved during the McGwire/Sosa chase.

[Biolink]

prolly not a lot.

The Jose Canseco is a Donruss (The best Rookie is the Topps one), and it's a bit dogeared, I might get ten or twenty out of it.

the Bonds one is beat to fuck and back, I didn't take care of my shit when I was a kid.

That sucks.

[maxx]

Why worry? A-Rod is destined to break the record with over 800 homeruns. As long as he doesn't pull a Griffey, he'll break it before turning 40.

maxx and the city of boston continue their perverbial..fuck a-rod campaign...

*cough*

fuck a-rod

thank you.

[DS]

maxx and the city of boston continue their perverbial..fuck a-rod campaign...

*cough*

fuck a-rod

thank you.


Why? Because he didn't sign with your worthless team? God, I hope you really do watch baseball, because this could end up being a waste of my time.

[Taichi]

That sucks.

I don't care, I prolly never would sell 'em.

I'm sure I've got a few early Barry Bonds cards though.

[thurst]

lol @ "turning heads"

he was a 3-time MVP and had a bag full of golden gloves to boot.

[DS]

lol @ "turning heads"

he was a 3-time MVP and had a bag full of golden gloves to boot.


Yup. And still nothing. Could this be Barry's Revenge?

[Sixshot]

God, I hope you really do watch baseball, because this could end up being a waste of my time.

I don't watch baseball (well, unless it's the world series or something, or unless I'm at 1 of my friend's houses and Chicago/New York is playing).It's too boring to watch consistantly.

I just look at it when it's on the news.

[maxx]

Why? Because he didn't sign with your worthless team? God, I hope you really do watch baseball, because this could end up being a waste of my time.

i do watch baseball lol..i know wuts up.

and i also know who's number 1 and whos back like 5 games.

[BBCampbell]

All I know is that they had better have been waiting for Barry at home plate with a cup to pee in.

Official: Congratulations, Mr. Bonds!!! You've just broken the home run record! Now, if I could just get you to pee in this...


I'm willing to overlook all previous steroid use if:
a) They slap a big, giant asterisk next to his record
b) HR #756 was drug-free


And speaking of playing under the influence, I think Babe Ruth's number should be adjusted for playing while fat and drunk. The difficulty level for that one must be astounding.

[DaFlipMastaXV]

If A-Rod's not on roids, then good luck to him. I am personally in favor of keeping Hank Aaron's name on the top of the home run list and banning Bonds for life from baseball along with all the other roiders. Want proof that Barry Bonds is a roid freak? His fucking head grew when he was an adult. Your head never grows when you are an adult (getting five chins doesn't count) unless you have some sort of pituitary problem/you are on HGH or roids. Barry Bonds does not have a pituitary disorder. I say ban for life.

I am personally in favor of you being a moron.

To get a lifetime ban in baseball, you have to do something illegal. A shame steroids weren't illegal until 2002 or 2004. A shame that he hasnt taken them in 4-5 years, and was still cranking out HRs. Surely he's out of his prime and has been for a long time, but to keep Hank Aaron's name at the top, or even putting an asterisk in Barry's name is just ludicrous.

I think everyone should just respect him for the 7-8 years he'll be HR champ, but there's too many stubborn people out there who don't like him, so it's a shame. He would be the greatest player in our generation if it wasn't for Alex Rodriguez, and he was a first ballot HoFer without roids, and definately should be one even if he did.

Babe Ruth only hit against white pitchers, does that mean he should get an asterisk because he never hit against latinos and blacks? No, because at his time there were none, just like in the 90s, there were no rules about steroids.

If A-Rod took steroids right now to pass Barry, there wouldnt be that much hate, because everyone knows A-Rod was already the best player in baseball and was "bound to break the record anyways".

I do wish Ken Griffey Jr took the record from Aaron tho.

Maxx: Do you know who's on the rise and who's slippin? ;)

[Gimpy]

To maxx and Deathscythe, the Red Sox and the Yankees suck!!! :rofl::looney::rofl::looney::rofl:



It's all about those Nationals and Orioles Nukkas!!!!!!!!!!! Ok so both of my teams suck right now. I just always wanted to say that to Yankees and Red Sox fans. :sweat::sweat:

[maxx]

To maxx and Deathscythe, the Red Sox and the Yankees suck!!! :rofl::looney::rofl::looney::rofl:



It's all about those Nationals and Orioles Nukkas!!!!!!!!!!! Ok so both of my teams suck right now. I just always wanted to say that to Yankees and Red Sox fans. :sweat::sweat:

haha you even color coordinated your message..how cute.

[Warpticon]

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

I fail to see what this has to do with anything. The "oh yeah? well, you couldn't do it" is so beneath you. Come on.

[Taichi]

I don't watch Major League or College baseball, because that shit is too corrupted by drugs, and shady shit.

I used to be a HUGE fan of Major League Baseball (it's really the only sport I bother to follow), and I'm still a major supporter of the Pittsburgh Pirates (ironically, Barry Bonds' first team), but I don't follow them on a weekly basis, I may watch the occasional game here or there, but I just don't care anymore.

I also used to be a big Cleveland fan, back in the 90s (when they actually pulled themselves out of their huge slump for a time), but then they went back to being a shitty team.

I guess once people realized that Charlie Sheen didn't actually pitch for them, they just stopped giving a shit.

[Figcoinc]

I will still call Hank Aaron the homerun leader regardless. Hopefully A-Rod....or maybe even Albert Pujols if he gets hot will do it. Too bad Ken Griffey Jr. got hurt so much. I would had supported him all the way.

[J-ride]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the overwhelming majority of all sports players are juicing in one form or another.

It doesn't matter the sport, we pretty much passed human potential a few years back. Even the endurance racers are blood doping (EPO), on prescriptions that are designed for people with respiratory disorders, artery/vein blockage (expanding the size of veins and arteries), blood thinners etc. You mean to tell me that an Olympic level athlete has circulatory problems? lolz. At least half the guys on my HS football team juiced or took Growth Hormone, I can't imagine it is much different in the NFL.

Barry Bonds obviously took GH or a GHRP because his head and hands have grown substantially since he his rookie year. I guess you can technically say that he hasn't taken steroids since GH is a protein hormone, lolz.

[DaFlipMastaXV]

I don't watch Major League or College baseball, because that shit is too corrupted by drugs, and shady shit.

I used to be a HUGE fan of Major League Baseball (it's really the only sport I bother to follow), and I'm still a major supporter of the Pittsburgh Pirates (ironically, Barry Bonds' first team), but I don't follow them on a weekly basis, I may watch the occasional game here or there, but I just don't care anymore.

I also used to be a big Cleveland fan, back in the 90s (when they actually pulled themselves out of their huge slump for a time), but then they went back to being a shitty team.

I guess once people realized that Charlie Sheen didn't actually pitch for them, they just stopped giving a shit.

Cleveland has a very good team right now

[Taichi]

Yes, I know.

but I stopped caring long before the turn of the century.

and if they can't clean up professional sports, then I think it is time we created a 'clean league' so we can enjoy the sport as it was meant to be played.

I'd rather watch a group of people with average abilities who play because they fucking love the game, than people who have to abuse drugs, in order to reach the top earning bracket.

as it stands now, the majors will be the fucking "Cyborg League" before its all said and done. But then again, if Barry can inject chemicals into his arms then I think the outfielders should have robotic extendo-arms so the fucking ball never makes it over the fence.

[RockBogart]

Yes, I know.

but I stopped caring long before the turn of the century.

and if they can't clean up professional sports, then I think it is time we created a 'clean league' so we can enjoy the sport as it was meant to be played.

I'd rather watch a group of people with average abilities who play because they fucking love the game, than people who have to abuse drugs, in order to reach the top earning bracket.

as it stands now, the majors will be the fucking "Cyborg League" before its all said and done.

:rolleyes: I think if players want to do roids the leagues should regulate it. The team trainers should cycle the players on and off as to avoid bad situations down the road. Make it available to those who want to do it. There was no rule about back when he took, so it was basically another protein supplement. This guys put there bodies on the line day in and day out to entertain us. So if they want to use roids to prolong there career or increase performance, more power to them.

[Taichi]

Well, since that shit is fucking ILLEGAL, I say no, not until they legalize it.

furthermore, I don't give a fuck what they do to themselves, if they wanna die young, fine, but I don't think they should lead guys who set records on natural fucking talent alone.

[The Invincible Swordsman]

I'd rather have Bonds keep the record as a big "Fuck You" to MLB for allowing this supposedly great sport (borrrrrrrrring) to get all fucked up. There's no way in hell the owners and managers and even the commissioners didn't know all these guys in baseball weren't juicing. And it wasn't just the hitters..... it's the fucking pitchers, too. I'd bet one of my kidneys that Roger Clemens has/had been juicing. Hell..... the owners were probably giving them the stuff.

And frankly....... I don't give a shit about these records falling. All records were made to be broken. And baseball is STILL not America's sport. That's the NFL. In a week, nobody is gonna care except the retarded, old, uptight media who sill have a hard-on for steroids and Bonds because Bonds never gave them the respect they think they deserve for being hack writers and shitty journalists who just make up 75% of the shit they write about and hold grudges against people becuase they didn't get that interview they thought they could get.


This has been THE INVINCIBLE SWORDSMAN saying:

Most fans don't give shit about this steroids thing anymore.

[Obkb]

How can anyone really care what Bonds has done, one way or the other?
They talk about how tremendous the (all-time) home run record is and it's difficulty to break (especially without 'roids). However, a man who cleary was not on roids, and happens to be a tiny human specimen (Aaron), set the record. Why then could Bonds not have beatin' it today, with or without steroids? Am I the only one who sees the double standard concept to which there can be no liberation?

We've somehow convinced ourselves that records from an inferior era were unbreakable and go up in arms when they're broken by people today who are physically superior. It's all the hypocrisy of baseball, or as I like to call it "the deadsport profiteers."

People are quick to smear Bonds with no documented proof. I don't deny that steroid use is likely with him, but I won't condemn him without facts simply because he doesn't treat the press like royalty. I have a hard time imagining how I would react any differently towards the press or fans were I him.

People hold Griffey up like he should be the posterboy of the league. Am I the only one to notice that his ass has blown up like a good-year blimp in the past 4 years? In about the same timeframe that Bonds swelled up like a 'roidian toad? It's common knowledge that the human body generally loses its youthful appearance after 35+. Anyone who thinks I'm biased or unbiased should know that I live in the Cincinnati region so Griffey plays for my regional team. It seems we have another hypocritical double-standard, no? Or should we all just assume Griffey is clean simply because he doesn't antagonize the press?

A-Rod is still slim, but I imagine he'll get tire-pump up the ass within the next 3-5 years and 'roid accusations will ensue.

Baseball has lost its integrity and will never get it back. The damage is done. If you're looking for fair play, you may as well stop watching pro sports altogether. It's all dirty and corrupt. On with the bickering.

I think if players want to do roids the leagues should regulate it. The team trainers should cycle the players on and off as to avoid bad situations down the road. Make it available to those who want to do it. There was no rule about back when he took, so it was basically another protein supplement. This guys put there bodies on the line day in and day out to entertain us. So if they want to use roids to prolong there career or increase performance, more power to them.

Surely you have to know that this strategy could never stick, right? If it becomes accepted at the pro level, then it will filter down into the collegiate and inevitably high school. There'll be ninth graders walking the halls stuffing seniors in lockers the first year after this is accepted. Of course their nutsacks will disappear and they'll cry and slit their wrists because their prom date laughed them into suicide. It will become an epidemic, giving the federal government a bigger avenue through which to pass frivolous laws.

Afterwards a complete police-state will ensue and drive the country into a self-distructive revolution that leaves us open for an invasion from China. After they have overtaken our country, they will start many rice fields, tearing down our great stadiums to make room and the sport of baseball will disappear, making it all pointless.

They'll make us field-serfs and pump us full of roids and rice. Mal-nutrition will set in and offset the effects of steroids. We'll then shrink and breed, but our sperm count will be so low and corrupt that we'll have retarded babies and the human race will disappear into the frozen hills to wait for the next thaw.

A new age will be ushered in, forcing humanity to start over, once again, from scratch. 10,000 years down the road we will invent baseball where a fantastic record will be set... to be broken later by someone who used something called "steroids."

[DS]

I'd rather watch a group of people with average abilities who play because they fucking love the game, than people who have to abuse drugs, in order to reach the top earning bracket.


Get satellite and watch Japanese baseball.

So if they want to use roids to prolong there career or increase performance, more power to them.

Steroids prolong careers? Really? It increases performance, but your body starts to breakdown after a while. Ask Jason Giambi. That shit started to kill him.

How can anyone really care what Bonds has done, one way or the other?
They talk about how tremendous the (all-time) home run record is and it's difficulty to break (especially without 'roids). However, a man who cleary was not on roids, and happens to be a tiny human specimen (Aaron), set the record. Why then could Bonds not have beatin' it today, with or without steroids? Am I the only one who sees the double standard concept to which there can be no liberation?



The thing is though, Griffey was the only player alive destined to break the homerun record. Barry wasn't even a name in MLB's hat at the time. His season stats didn't start to puff up until AFTER the McGwire/Sosa HR derby.

Barry was an all-around good hitter back in his day. He wasn't a HR king at all.

[RockBogart]

Snip

:rofl:@at the last part.

But anyway thats why humans need to get over that whole "monkey see , monkey do" mentality. To let a fucking child take roids is retarded. The male body in a lot of cases doesn't fully develop until age 21. And the difference between the pro and other levels is that they are getting paid for performance. And if a kid in high school wants roids bad enough, hes going to get them. Most VAHSL only pisses test in the pre-season once. And thats when you to get your physical. NCAA piss test all the damn time. I wouldn't be surprised if roid usage in high school eventually become rampant because of lack of testing.

[RetroKid]

Red Sox fans are quite possibly the most annoying fans in all of sports, and maxx's recent posts are a great example of why they are.

How can anyone think Griffey was juicing at any point in his career? The current incarnation of Griffey isn't that much bigger than Mariners Griffey. And the reason he did gain weight was because he got fat due to his inactivity from all his injuries.

Ken Griffey, Jr. is still the man. Real talk.

[maxx]

Red Sox fans are quite possibly the most annoying fans in all of sports, and maxx's recent posts are a great example of why they are.

How can anyone think Griffey was juicing at any point in his career? The current incarnation of Griffey isn't that much bigger than Mariners Griffey. And the reason he did gain weight was because he got fat due to his inactivity from all his injuries.

Ken Griffey, Jr. is still the man. Real talk.

oh pfft redsox and yankees fans are the exact same.

[Gimpy]

oh pfft redsox and yankees fans are the exact same.



You got that shit right! :rofl:

[RetroKid]

The thing about Yankee fans are that they're not ashamed to admit that they are arrogant and that the Yankees throw their money around to buy talent. Red Sox fans, however, think that the Yankees are evil and the Red Sox are still underdogs when they have the second highest payroll in baseball.

Red Sox fans are annoying like Yankee fans, but are worse because they're hypocrites who think their shit doesn't stink.

[Obkb]

The funniest thing of all is that the yankees suck balls through a tube while having 5x the payroll of the Reds, who also suck shit through a straw and snowball that shit.

The Yankees have no excuse to lose a game to anyone but the redsox. Ban them both from the league and they can have a two-way series every year, consisting of 162 games, the first one to 82 wins, wins the other team's payroll for a year.

Since one team won't have the funds to field a team the following year, they can take a vacation, and/or maybe the other team can purchase the other teams' talent.

The real winners of all of this are the fans of the sport who don't have to watch.

[DaFlipMastaXV]

The funniest thing of all is that the yankees suck balls through a tube while having 5x the payroll of the Reds, who also suck shit through a straw and snowball that shit.

The Yankees have no excuse to lose a game to anyone but the redsox. Ban them both from the league and they can have a two-way series every year, consisting of 162 games, the first one to 82 wins, wins the other team's payroll for a year.

Since one team won't have the funds to field a team the following year, they can take a vacation, and/or maybe the other team can purchase the other teams' talent.

The real winners of all of this are the fans of the sport who don't have to watch.

lol i wasn't sure whether to take you seriously in your first post but this one settles it.

[maxx]

The thing about Yankee fans are that they're not ashamed to admit that they are arrogant and that the Yankees throw their money around to buy talent. Red Sox fans, however, think that the Yankees are evil and the Red Sox are still underdogs when they have the second highest payroll in baseball.

Red Sox fans are annoying like Yankee fans, but are worse because they're hypocrites who think their shit doesn't stink.

haha i dunno about all that. we will always be underdogs til we have wut is it..26 rings or sumtin. You can still be an underdog and have he second highest payroll. I'm still trying to figure out why the ticket prices are soo obcene when we got that dough. I haven't been to a red sox game in years.

Obkb:Mlb loves redsox vs yankees games...those games make more money than the world series itself.

[MistaJuJu]

I don't watch baseball, but didn't Hank Aaron get shit also when he was close to breaking Babe Ruth's record? Shit is going to blow over in a few year. From what I am hearing it's gonna be the exact same thing when A-rod starts getting close to Bond's record.

[Carpet Lint]

Massive brain hemorrage.
Good God, I hope you break your fingers off the next time they're in your vagina so I don't need to read this incoherent garbage.

I like how Taichi hasn't watched or paid attention to anything baseball in the last ten years, and now he's spamming up the forum with this noble outcry about how steroids have ruined the sport. Not a single thing about competitive unbalance due to the capless payrolls, how foreign prospects can just sign with the rich teams as free agents inside of going through the draft like everyone else, the insane lottery that is interleague play, or the imbalance of division heavy schedules. Nope, it's steroids that's ruining baseball. Yup, steroids.

What's the difference between this and waiting outside of Paris Hilton's house for news about her jail term? All you guys whining about this Barry Bonds shit should just shut the fuck up already. Annoying as hell, and it's just sad to see you talking about it pretending that you have some sort of opinion that needs to be respected just because you checked the front page of ESPN once last week. If you don't know shit, then admit it.

This crap about how older guys played in a more pure era without the advantages of steroids to help is straight up STUPID.

Here's the "facts". Bonds plays in the most challenging of all eras of baseball, where the competition is at it's all time best. Aka THE PRESENT. Barry Bonds plays in an era where even the scrubbiest of middle relief pitchers have at least two solid pitches, and can throw breaking balls at 90+ mph with good movement. And that's completely ignoring the very real possibility that just as many pitchers were or are just as juiced as he is.

Does anyone even think that Ted Williams could have hit .260 against today's pitchers? So why does his average stand up even though he clearly had a massive advantage hitting against shitty pitchers? Did you know Babe Ruth once had a year where he PITCHED 323 innings with a 1.75 ERA? That's insane - how does that compare at all to this current era of baseball? They were playing an entirely different game back then.

Hank Aaron played from 1954-1976. Who the fuck cares about that era? Do you think the average pitcher then could even break a minor league camp with a club now? Why do Barry Bonds' numbers need to be looked at specially because of the context of his era, if Hank Aaron's don't?

And although it's insane to ignore the very probably reality that Bonds is all hopped up on roids, the amount of shit he takes in comparison to he contemporaries is just crazy. Canseco actually wrote a fucking book about how he did it, Sosa's got caught with a corked bat (which is stupid, because cork is worse than wood, but whatever) and his OPS dropped like three hundred points the year after it came out, McGwire copped out like a bitch in front of a grand jury, Giambi actually admitted to using it, and Palmerio lied and ACTUALLY GOT CAUGHT and was suspended for 10 games. And yet absolutely none of those guys get any specific hate, other than a public wide dismissal and acceptance of the whole era being juiced. It's been accepted as The Steroid Era, and that's the way it is, and now we've all moved on.

Except for Bonds, which gets special attention...for no reason other than the fact that he happens to be better than all of them. Honestly speaking, he was putting up raw hitting numbers (maybe not specifically home runs, but still) that were already well on pace for him to earn a first ballot Hall of Fame entry even before he started to be suspected of steroids. And remember...Bonds hasn't actually gotten caught. He hasn't broken a single rule.

Hank Aaron had a much, much bigger edge on Barry Bonds. Bonds' alleged steroid use did absolutely nothing for him when compared to the huge advantage Hank Aaron had playing against pitchers that wouldn't even be ballplayers today, in an era where hitting a home run was an ENTIRELY different physical activity than it is today. Baseball in the 60's and baseball in the 90's are almost two different sports.

So if you accept one set of numbers, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't accept another set of numbers. Especially since we are living in the present, and not in the 1960's.

And that's the way it should be. Hank Aaron's numbers are just as legit as Barry Bonds' numbers are.

Both hit every single one of those home runs with legal bats, in legal parks, against legal pitchers, and every single one of those home runs has been recorded in legit box scores.

Should those bats, balls, parks, pitchers, and box scores be legal in the first place? Well that's another matter altogether about how inept the league and the commissioner's office is...but as long as they stand up, the numbers are legit.

Four threads full of this is getting annoying as hell.

[Obkb]

My brain hemroids vs your's. Best of 7. Ready?

GO!

Edit: Aww, you win :(

[Devil X]

Anyone who knows me knows how much of a Dodger fan I am. And I'll even admit, stfu to the people whining about steroids. Why? Because no one talks about pitchers using this shit as well. I love how people who don't have a fing clue ask how Bonds could get better as he gets older, but never seem to question how Roger Clemens got better as he got just as old. Hmmmm........

Just cut it out already, all these guys were juicing. Kevin Brown was roided out of his mind when he almost led the Padres to a title, and then got a huge contract from the Dodgers. Started breaking down from the roid abuse.

[DeathReaper47]

CLint for the mothafuckin' win. SRK always has to find SOME kind of reason for bringing a nigga down, despite everything they had to do to get there.

[Adam Warlock]

All records were made to be broken.

CVS2 is that shit.

I like how Taichi hasn't watched or paid attention to anything baseball in the last ten years, and now he's spamming up the forum with this noble outcry about how steroids have ruined the sport. Not a single thing about competitive unbalance due to the capless payrolls, how foreign prospects can just sign with the rich teams as free agents inside of going through the draft like everyone else, the insane lottery that is interleague play, or the imbalance of division heavy schedules. Nope, it's steroids that's ruining baseball. Yup, steroids.

I like how you still take what Taichi has to say seriously. Dude sent me a fucking thank you PM for flaming him.

[AcEtUrNeDjOkEr]

CLint for the mothafuckin' win. SRK always has to find SOME kind of reason for bringing a nigga down, despite everything they had to do to get there.

He's still an asshole, used to be my favorite player back in his Pirate days, but after the departure and his "personality"; Ken Griffey for the win!

Not to mention, him not being in the MLBPA

[Gimpy]

One thing I think most of us can agree on about Bond's is that his wife is fuckable. :cool:

[Return of Shiki]

So how 'bout Dat MADDEN?

To hell with baseball.

[Obkb]

Return of Shiki wins this thread. Not because of that donut swallowing, barrel ass pussy madden and his stupid shirt... oh, I don't know where I'm going with this.

Well it's Monday night and we're ready to rock!
Time to get all the hits, the bangs and the blocks.
It's the game of the week that's comin' your way.
The Bengals and the Ravens are ready to play.
We gotta get ready, we gotta get right
Cause Monday Night Football kicks off tonight!

So get ready. I mean, get ready.
Are you ready for some football?! A Monday night party!

We've got Frank and Al and Dan.*
They're gonna get it kick started.
Lynn* and the crew's all set. The crowd is psyched.
Cause all my rowdy friends are back on Monday Night!



Carson Palmer - or C3P0wn because he's a td chucking automaton- for president!

If the patriots collapse, the bengals will represent the AFC despite not having a single LB! :)

[RoninChaos]

Hank Aaron is an asshole.

[Ukyo Tachibana]

Well, I don't really like Barry Bonds, because he's an asshole in general, and I certainly don't appreciate the fact that he was on steroids to give himself a little boost.

But I gotta admit, this guy has some skills. He hit his record-breaking home run off of a LEFT HANDED PITCHER. Not a lot of left-handed batters hit a HR off of a lefty, let alone hit a ball off of a lefty.

Nothing really to stress about either. I see Pujols or A-Rod beating his record eventually.

[BarrelO]

Let's get real, people. Players in the 60s and 70s popped amphetamines like it was Halloween candy, Aaron included. Hell, the catcher for the game Aaron hit 715 in has said that the game is cleaner today than it was when he was playing.

[Debaser]

I think this thread shoud just be the new Baseball Thread since the other one faded into oblivion. Oh and go Dodgers. You can tell that all our skinny Mexicans aren't using steroids.

[SRKev]

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.

Exactly, I'm sick and tired of people thinking that:

1) Steroids make you a great home run hitter
2) Bonds is the only person on roids

EVERYONE is on roids in the majors, it's as essential as wearing cleats these days. People need to stop whining and get over it, Bonds broke the record. He made his major league debut in 1986 people, he's been in the majors for longer than most of you have been alive, show some respect.

@ Deathscythe: You're completely correct on the A-Rod front, he's got the record on lock. Grats on mod status BTW.

[SlayerofBodom]

Most of the people in this thread don't understand the first fucking thing about steroids, growth hormones, blood doping, or high-level athletics.

I've talked to pro, college, and retired athletes in basketball, boxing, weight-lifting, strongman competitions, MMA, BJJ, (real) wrestling, and running. I've even seen a few of my friends take this stuff with my own eyes.

Here's what you all need to understand;

In virtually every fucking sport, over 95% of the athletes are taking illegal, outside enhancements. In the year 2007, there is no such thing as an elite, completely clean athlete.

Moreover, steroids, amphetimines, blood doping, etc. were originally developed in the early 1960's.

It was obviously nowhere near as sophisticated and high-level then as it is today, but take that into consideration; my grandfather, an amateur USSR weightlifter, told me that a ton of Soviet powerlifters were juicing as early as the sixties. (Winning the Olympics was a huge deal for the Commies back in the day)

I should add that basketball is a relative exception; while it's true that over half of the NBA players smoke copious amounts of marijuana to relieve the ridiculous amount of stress they face on a constant basis, very, very few take any other stimulants or performance enhancers.

Also, understand, that different athletes have different goals. Just because someone is not taking roids doesn't mean they aren't doing a ton of other stimulants to increase their performance.

As a 7', 300 pound, muscular amateur mixed martial artist told me; "I used to take roids, but they fucked up my stamina too much. Now, I take OTHER STIMULANTS."

McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc. were all power hitters raising their muscle level, so they went for roids. But what about the aging pitcher doing HGH to remain competitive, or the leadoff man re-injecting his own blood (blood doping) before a huge playoff game.

So everyone talking shit about Barry Bonds needs to kindly shut the fuck up. It's a part of sports in 2007. Deal with it.

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.

Excellent post, Az. I would only change the 75% to at least 90%.

Edit

Let's get real, people. Players in the 60s and 70s popped amphetamines like it was Halloween candy, Aaron included. Hell, the catcher for the game Aaron hit 715 in has said that the game is cleaner today than it was when he was playing.

Some people here legitimately know what they're talking about. That's refreshing to see; even on a site devoted to video games, we can have a reasonable discussion about enhancers in sports.

[Grimm_Demize]

Shit like this is why I'm glad to have followed baseball in Seattle for the last ten years. The only records that have really made noise up here have been those 116 wins in 2001, and Ichiro's single season hits record in 2004 (I saw him collect a few of those off of Roger Clemens at an AWESOME interleague game, same night the Lakers took their only game of the finals that year :lol:). Records in sports can be a nasty thing, and both home runs in a single season and over a career get ugly in the press.

That said, I'm hoping it's Albert Pujols who someday surpasses Bonds. That dude is on Bonds's level when it comes to bat speed and eye, shit's just not fair.

[DoublexxCyclone]

Hank Aaron had 3000 more at bats than Barry.

[Carpet Lint]

That's only because Barry Bonds walked so much.

In terms of plate appearances, it's only about 1,400. Which makes sense, because Hank Aaron played one more season than Barry, and Barry took 2005 off to "rehab his knee".

So Barry hit one every 16.55 PA's, and Hank Aaron hit one every 18.46 PA's. Not a huge difference.

[Superking]

Griffey should have brought some nerve tonic with him when he went to Cinnci, would've made him avoid all those injuries. :sad: :looney:

[SRKev]

Griffey should have brought some nerve tonic with him when he went to Cinnci, would've made him avoid all those injuries. :sad: :looney:

R.I.P. Classic Simpsons

[TS]

Shit is weak (ironically so). That's about all I have to say about it.

[spudlyff8fan]

EVERYONE

Wait a goddamn second. Do you think A-Rod is on roids? Jeter? Coco Crisp? Ichiro Suzuki? Julio Lugo? Joe Mauer? Adrian Gonzalez? Chase Utley? Reggie Willits? Mike Lowell? Freddy Sanchez? Jose Guillen? Russell Martin?

Do you even know who half those people are? No? Then stfu.

You're making moronic, inaccurate excuses if you think that the MAJORITY of baseballers are on the juice. Yeah, there's lots of guys like Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds, Alex Sanchez and Carlos Almanzar who're juicing. But just looking at the players, you can immediately identify who is or isn't, in all likelihood, on roids.

But then again, anybody making that allegation hasn't seen baseball.

[Sixshot]

Hank Aaron had 3000 more at bats than Barry.

Really ?

[RockBogart]

Not everyone who takes roids blow the fuck up like Bonds did.

[spudlyff8fan]

Really ?

Hank Aaron wasn't juicing, and therefore, wasn't constantly injured.

[Grimm_Demize]

Hank Aaron wasn't juicing, and therefore, wasn't constantly injured.

Yep, and managerial strategy of the day didn't call for excessive walking of dangerous hitters, either.

Not that I mind anyone walking Bonds. :rofl:

[SRKev]

Wait a goddamn second. Do you think A-Rod is on roids? Jeter? Coco Crisp? Ichiro Suzuki? Julio Lugo? Joe Mauer? Adrian Gonzalez? Chase Utley? Reggie Willits? Mike Lowell? Freddy Sanchez? Jose Guillen? Russell Martin?

Do you even know who half those people are? No? Then stfu.

You're making moronic, inaccurate excuses if you think that the MAJORITY of baseballers are on the juice. Yeah, there's lots of guys like Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds, Alex Sanchez and Carlos Almanzar who're juicing. But just looking at the players, you can immediately identify who is or isn't, in all likelihood, on roids.

But then again, anybody making that allegation hasn't seen baseball.

I'm actually an avid baseball fan who does know who the stars are that you mentioned. If you don;t think that the majority of baseball players are using performance enhancers then you're a fucking retard. But based on the fact that you've been raped multiple times on these forums in multiple arguments, I already knew you were a short bus alum.

[RockBogart]

^oh snap, its on

[maxx]

I'm actually an avid baseball fan who does know who the stars are that you mentioned. If you don;t think that the majority of baseball players are using performance enhancers then you're a fucking retard. But based on the fact that you've been raped multiple times on these forums in multiple arguments, I already knew you were a short bus alum.

hahaha shin speaks the truth. whoever made the comparison of steroids and cleats was on mutherfucking point.

[spudlyff8fan]

I'm actually an avid baseball fan who does know who the stars are that you mentioned. If you don;t think that the majority of baseball players are using performance enhancers then you're a fucking retard. But based on the fact that you've been raped multiple times on these forums in multiple arguments, I already knew you were a short bus alum.

Really? Then I'm just left here wondering how almost all the best players in baseball are these lanky bastards. 184 lbs for the 6-1 Chase. 195 for the 6-5 Hanley Ramirez. 172 lbs Ichiro. Not to mention the fact that you can look at all these stars in the pictures since their practically pre-school days.

Take Roger Clemens. Lotsa people believes he's been juicing, and for good reason. A 500 year old guy who's been pitching since the 80s who can still throw a 95 mph fastball like nothing? But Google a picture from when he was in HS. He still looked like was classic Iron Man.

Or take Arod. Even back in his Marlins days, he was seriously jacked, and he's always been 200+ pounds.

You can make the case that a notable number of big-time baseball players like Nomar, Chipper Jones, Prince Fielder or Torii Hunter are juicing. But that's still really, really far away from making the case that the majority of players are juicing. Especially when you consider steroids would slow a SS, 2B, 3B or CF down to the point of uselessness in fielding.

[RockBogart]

You do realize that not everyone who takes roids ends up looking like The Hulk, right?


Edit: Who am I kidding, no you don't. I could give you a biology class on protein synthesis, and how it varies based on genetics and other variables and you still wouldn't understand.

[Murt!]

So why the fuck does Barry Bonds get to keep shitting on his legacy?

So why are you still allowed to post here?

[spudlyff8fan]

You do realize that not everyone who takes roids ends up looking like The Hulk, right?

Yes. That's why I pointed out Nomar.

Nomar hasn't been indicted or officially pointed at, but between the suspicions, allegations, injuries and changes in position (he DID start out as a shortstop on the Sox...and is now a 1B on the Dodgers), it's safe to say that he's shootin'/creamin'/drinkin' up.

[ThePurpleBunny]

Yes. That's why I pointed out Nomar.

Nomar hasn't been indicted or officially pointed at, but between the suspicions, allegations, injuries and changes in position (he DID start out as a shortstop on the Sox...and is now a 1B on the Dodgers), it's safe to say that he's shootin'/creamin'/drinkin' up.

You're a fucking idiot.

[SRKev]

Really? Then I'm just left here wondering how almost all the best players in baseball are these lanky bastards. 184 lbs for the 6-1 Chase. 195 for the 6-5 Hanley Ramirez. 172 lbs Ichiro. Not to mention the fact that you can look at all these stars in the pictures since their practically pre-school days.

Take Roger Clemens. Lotsa people believes he's been juicing, and for good reason. A 500 year old guy who's been pitching since the 80s who can still throw a 95 mph fastball like nothing? But Google a picture from when he was in HS. He still looked like was classic Iron Man.

Or take Arod. Even back in his Marlins days, he was seriously jacked, and he's always been 200+ pounds.

You can make the case that a notable number of big-time baseball players like Nomar, Chipper Jones, Prince Fielder or Torii Hunter are juicing. But that's still really, really far away from making the case that the majority of players are juicing. Especially when you consider steroids would slow a SS, 2B, 3B or CF down to the point of uselessness in fielding.

So you're saying that just because people look different that they're on performance enhancers? Sorry buddy, but performance enhancing drugs don't necessarily turn you into the Incredible fucking Hulk.

Ultimately, people who play sports want one thing: To Be the Best

So, when legends of the game are taking performance enhancers and seeing success, it doesn't surprise me that other players are following suit. It's the dedication to your art that propels you to sacrifice the one thing that's most sacred to you (Your body) in order to achieve greatness.

EDIT: I just noticed that RockBogart compared roids to the Hulk as well. Well done.

[Grimm_Demize]

Or take Arod. Even back in his Marlins days, he was seriously jacked, and he's always been 200+ pounds.

:rofl:

Fucking up the team's name aside, let's have a look at Mr. Rodriguez through the years.

Arod as a Mariner #1 (http://www.cbsnews.com/images/2004/02/17/image600591.jpg)

Arod as a Mariner #2 (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20001012/400arod3.jpg)

Arod as a Ranger (http://www.sports-memorabilia-collectibles-autographed.com/images/Picture-of-Alex-Rodriguez.jpeg)

Arod as a Yankee (http://www.bronxpride.com/files/images/Alex%20Rodriguez%20Frustration.jpg)

The dude certainly has bulked up, albeit not nearly so much as Bonds has. Can one really tell from looking at a guy like ARod if he's done 'roids or not?

I couldn't really say, but I won't rule it out.

[RockBogart]

So you mean to say that age isnt a factor for changes in position and injuries?....wow

[Sixshot]

You can't tell, no.

But he probably has done teh roids.

[spudlyff8fan]

So you're saying that just because people look different that they're on performance enhancers? Sorry buddy, but performance enhancing drugs don't necessarily turn you into the Incredible fucking Hulk.Do you just have selective memory or do you just lack the attention to read whole sentences?

Like I said (twice), slowing down, putting on large amounts of weight instantly, having a neck bigger than your head, and frequent minor injuries all suggest juicing.

Oh. And the roid rage.

Ultimately, people who play sports want one thing: Make moneyFixed.

Barry Bonds knows that he's going to have this looming over his head from here until the next guy breaks the record (whenever that may be). He almost absolutely would've been a hall of famer if he retired before he joined the Giants. Just like in football, wrestling, or any other sport that people juice in, they take roids so that they can have an edge that will keep them over the rookies, keep them on the team, and keep the checks in the mail. Bonds was a great player before he started juicing and if he was REALLY concerned with his rep, he would've retired.

So, when legends of the game are taking performance enhancers and seeing success, it doesn't surprise me that other players are following suit. It's the dedication to your art that propels you to sacrifice the one thing that's most sacred to you (Your body), in order to achieve greatness.You think Bonds is a legend at this point?

The "legends" in baseball are, more or less, still consolidated to Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Nolan Ryan, Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mantle/Marris, Cy Young and a handful of others from the pre-steroids era. Do you think that Giambi, Sheffield, Bonds and Palmero are going to be looked back on in 2030 and have people say "yeah...they were the best in the game?" I certainly don't.

But regardless, if the League cracked tossed the high-profile juicers out for a season or two, I definitely think that this would be significantly reduced.

So you mean to say that age isnt a factor for changes in position and injuries?....wowWhen somebody goes from playing 158 games a year (at 30) to 100 over three years (31-33) because they sprained a wrist...it suggests it's not just aging.

snip

Oops@Marlins/Mariners (I always mix up the Marlins, Mariners and D-Rays)

http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/arodsp.jpg

But yeah, he's never been a lightweight.

You can't tell, no.

But he probably has done teh roids.

He admitted it.

At least, he admittedly rubbed himself up with a clear slime from his convicted agent, and continued doing so despite the bouts of anger and his dick falling off.

[Doc Holliday]

I don't understand how the lot of you can be such dipshits.

Even if Bonds was juicing, steroids doesn't automatically make you a great home run hitter. You still have to hit the ball, and hit it well, and these MLB pitchers are being paid very well to make sure that hitters can't do that.

NOBODY in this thread, steroids or otherwise, could ever even THINK about hitting 700 homers in the major leagues. Bonds is still a great hitter, and a great player.

And if you ban Bonds, you probably have to ban 75% of the MLB too. But hey, have fun watching the minor leagues.

Thank you.Turning yourself into a monster (metaphorically speaking) doesn't automatically mean you'd have the skill you'd need to do what you'd need to do.Maybe if you need to turn yourself into a monster to get the job done, then that's what you need to do.

I'm a Machiavellian.The end justifies the means.

Decepticon.

What you two, and half of this thread don't seem to get is that steroids aren't what makes you a good hitter. No one is saying that or should be anyways. Bonds had PLENTY of talent before allegedly taking the gear. I'll give him that. What steroids do is turn someone that's a consistent 330-360 ft. hitter, and give him the extra boost to turn those balls that would hit the warning track (or 10ft before that), into homers. No, you guys are right. They don't make you "see" the ball better or help you as far as contact with the ball goes. But for someone that's already a good longball hitter, it gives him the extra bat speed, wrist break, and torque to put the ones out that would have been iffy before.


Good God, I hope you break your fingers off the next time they're in your vagina so I don't need to read this incoherent garbage.

Would be kinda nice if said vagina enveloped your entire head and cut off your O2 supply. That would've put the kaibosh on your little rant and saved me from reading it.


Here's the "facts". Bonds plays in the most challenging of all eras of baseball, where the competition is at it's all time best. Aka THE PRESENT. Barry Bonds plays in an era where even the scrubbiest of middle relief pitchers have at least two solid pitches, and can throw breaking balls at 90+ mph with good movement. And that's completely ignoring the very real possibility that just as many pitchers were or are just as juiced as he is.

How the fuck is that a fact? That must have come from the Book o' Lint because I dont' remember reading that anywhere. If the competition is better today it's because of performance enhancing shit. Bottom line. But since you bring up the pitchers, that reminds me of something else I wanted to say. A few of you were talking about pitchers doping too, which would make sense. What also would make sense is that due to juiced pitchers, you'd have more homers. You hold a bat straight out and don't move it. Pitcher #1 throws a 60 mph ball at it. Pitcher #2 throws a 96 mph ball at it. Which ball is going to come off the bat with greater force and land farther away?


Does anyone even think that Ted Williams could have hit .260 against today's pitchers? So why does his average stand up even though he clearly had a massive advantage hitting against shitty pitchers?

I'll just take this one since all the examples are in the same vein. This example, like the others, are a fucking moot point. It's stupid to even throw a comment out like this because:

1. We'll never know if Ted could've hit that or not. Why even bring it up if you can't prove it and it's only your opinion?

2. Once again, your throwing out your opinion saying that he "clearly had a massive advantage hitting against shitty pitchers" How could you possibly know that?


Baseball in the 60's and baseball in the 90's are almost two different sports.

Your making it sound like the players of today are supermen that eat thunderbolts and shit lightning. But that would be an accurate statement if they were on the gear I suppose. So yeah, they were two different games.


CLint for the mothafuckin' win. SRK always has to find SOME kind of reason for bringing a nigga down, despite everything they had to do to get there.

Agreed. Everything he had to do to get there.

And quit ridding veteran cock so blatantly. Be more subtle next time.



Exactly, I'm sick and tired of people thinking that:

1) Steroids make you a great home run hitter
2) Bonds is the only person on roids

EVERYONE is on roids in the majors, it's as essential as wearing cleats these days. People need to stop whining and get over it, Bonds broke the record. He made his major league debut in 1986 people, he's been in the majors for longer than most of you have been alive, show some respect.

@ Deathscythe: You're completely correct on the A-Rod front, he's got the record on lock. Grats on mod status BTW.

No, he's only the allegedly juiced up player to kill off one of the greatest records of all time. See my reply above.


Retardedness


For someone that knows soooooooooo much about gear, you sure don't know what you're talking about. Refer to my previous answers.


So everyone talking shit about Barry Bonds needs to kindly shut the fuck up. It's a part of sports in 2007. Deal with it.

Way to sum it all up with this little nugget of brilliance. "It's a part of sports in 2007". So that makes it ok? Nothing like using status quo as the catch all huh?

You know, something else that I just thought of. I love how everyone was so quick to take Benoit off of the golden pedestal when everyone was blaming steroids for the killing of his wife and kid but when Barry supposedly uses them to kill the homerun record, it's all gravy.

[Grimm_Demize]

Barry Bonds knows that he's going to have this looming over his head from here until the next guy breaks the record (whenever that may be). He almost absolutely would've been a hall of famer if he retired before he joined the Giants. Just like in football, wrestling, or any other sport that people juice in, they take roids so that they can have an edge that will keep them over the rookies, and keep them on the team. Bonds was a great player before he started juicing and if he was REALLY concerned with his rep, he would've retired.

Before he joined The Giants, in what, 1993? A whole six years into his career? He was good, but not that good.

I think he had cemented his spot in the Hall of Fame back in 1999. He had been so quiet and consistent during the McGwire/Sosa years, typically putting up 40+ homers a season. I'm sure he's been juicing a long while, but something changed starting in 2000. The dude started hitting more, and more, and more. The walks starting pouring in and STILL he managed to put up 40+ a season, sans 2005 when he got hurt.

You're not supposed to increase your power numbers as you age. I understand that there are quite a few things beyond muscle mass and strength that factor into hitting a home run, such as a good eye and a quick bat, but to be that much bulkier that late in your career pretty much spells it out.

So yeah, had he retired around 1999 or 2000 (but why would he?) he'd have been a hall of famer with little controversy and fond memories.

[Warpticon]

Wait a goddamn second. Do you think A-Rod is on roids? Jeter? Coco Crisp? Ichiro Suzuki? Julio Lugo? Joe Mauer? Adrian Gonzalez? Chase Utley? Reggie Willits? Mike Lowell? Freddy Sanchez? Jose Guillen? Russell Martin?

Do you even know who half those people are? No? Then stfu.

You're making moronic, inaccurate excuses if you think that the MAJORITY of baseballers are on the juice. Yeah, there's lots of guys like Gary Sheffield, Barry Bonds, Alex Sanchez and Carlos Almanzar who're juicing. But just looking at the players, you can immediately identify who is or isn't, in all likelihood, on roids.

But then again, anybody making that allegation hasn't seen baseball.p

You're the moron that thinks bullpen is better than offense, and you have the nerve to pull the "you don't know baseball" card? Hilarious. You don't know shit.

[spudlyff8fan]

p

You're the moron that thinks bullpen is better than offense, and you have the nerve to pull the "you don't know baseball" card? Hilarious. You don't know shit.
It's a simple fact that elite pitching beats out elite hitting. That isn't even up for debate.

[Lantis]

Hank Aaron is an asshole.

:confused: Wait, wait, wait. Didn't Hank Aaron break Babe Ruth's record while playing with Atlanta? I thought you guys had him in some sort of surrogate pedestal. Or was there some underhanded thing he did that I'm unaware of? :looney:

As for people saying that not all people who juice up get automatically good confuse me: If that's the truth, why juice up then? I don't think it's because the thing tastes like chicken.... :confused:

[spudlyff8fan]

:confused: Wait, wait, wait. Didn't Hank Aaron break Babe Ruth's record while playing with Atlanta? I thought you guys had him in some sort of surrogate pedestal. Or was there some underhanded thing he did that I'm unaware of? :looney:

As for people saying that not all people who juice up get automatically good confuse me: If that's the truth, why juice up then? I don't think it's because the thing tastes like chicken.... :confused:
Just like in football, wrestling, or any other sport that people juice in, they take roids so that they can have an edge that will keep them over the rookies, keep them on the team, and keep the checks in the mail.

And no, he's been a Giant for a long time.

[Warpticon]

It's a simple fact that elite pitching beats out elite hitting. That isn't even up for debate.

what does "elite pitching" have to do with relievers? And that trite bullshit is in no way a "fact." God, you're stupid.

[SRKev]

Yadda Yadda Yadda

Carpet Lint is right, this is the most difficult era in baseball, hands down. You can't honestly believe that baseball back in the days of Mantle/Williams/Ruth/Koufax or any other legend was more difficult than it is now. The athletes of today far surpass those of any generation in any given sport. As a sports fan you should know this for a fact. Why do you think records are constantly being broken?

[RockBogart]

As for people saying that not all people who juice up get automatically good confuse me: If that's the truth, why juice up then? I don't think it's because the thing tastes like chicken.... :confused:

If your ass was below average with out roids, maybe a hair above average at best. When it comes to sports its not all about strength and power. Coordination, brains, experience count for more than brute strength. Bonds had the attributes listed in spades. He was always good, they just made him great. Look at the UFC fighter Munson. Roided up like you wouldn't believe and still isnt all that great. The main thing roids do is increase the rate of recovery and growth. They don't help you grow as a player. Thats done through playing the game and experience.

[Lantis]

If your ass was below average with out roids, maybe a hair above average at best. When it comes to sports its not all about strength and power. Coordination, brains, experience count for more than brute strength. Bonds had the attributes listed in spades. He was always good, they just made him great. Look at the UFC fighter Munson. Roided up like you wouldn't believe and still isnt all that great. The main thing roids do is increase the rate of recovery and growth. They don't help you grow as a player. Thats done through playing the game and experience.

So what you're saying is that Bonds took the 'roids not to enhance his hitting skills but to avoid being replaced by younger players on the roster? Because I can believe that (and hey, if it gives you more power at bat, I guess Bonds would welcome that too. LOL!) :wgrin:

[Warpticon]

As for people saying that not all people who juice up get automatically good confuse me: If that's the truth, why juice up then? I don't think it's because the thing tastes like chicken.... :confused:


You know, there's a world of difference between believing something works and it actually working. People still act like mentioning a no-hitter while it's happening is going to prevent it from occurring.

And more general athleticism doesn't meani it's a more difficult period. It's certainly not a more difficult period to hit home runs in.

[spudlyff8fan]

what does "elite pitching" have to do with relievers? God, you're stupid.

What do you think a reliever is? Hell, what do you think the purpose of a closer is?

Because really, just look at this season up to the all-star break with the Red Sox. Coco, Lugo, Manny, Ortiz, Drew, Varitek, Pena, Pedroia all slumping. Yet the Sox ended the first half of the season at the top of the League? Was their offense actually doing good? No. They had GOOD PITCHING. Sure, they could've had Daisuke, Beckett, Schilling and, eventually, Lester kicking ass. But would that really matter if they didn't have Delcarmen, Papelbon, Okajima, Snyder and Timlin? Probably not.

And is it a coincidence that the Yankees are behind them? I doubt it.

And is it a coincidence that several of the most-desired players on the trading block were closers? Once again, I doubt it.

[Warpticon]

What do you think a reliever is? Hell, what do you think the purpose of a closer is?

Because really, just look at this season up to the all-star break with the Red Sox. Coco, Lugo, Manny, Ortiz, Drew, Varitek, Pena, Pedroia all slumping. Yet the Sox ended the first half of the season at the top of the League? Was their offense actually doing good? No. They had GOOD PITCHING. Sure, they could've had Daisuke, Beckett, Schilling and, eventually, Lester kicking ass. But would that really matter if they didn't have Delcarmen, Papelbon, Okajima, Snyder and Timlin? Probably not.

And is it a coincidence that the Yankees are behind them? I doubt it.

And is it a coincidence that several of the most-desired players on the trading block were closers? Once again, I doubt it.

A reliever is usually a pitcher who wasn't good enough, for whatever reason, to be a starter. If a pitcher is good enough to be a starter, he's almost always better off pitching more innings. I'm not going to get into the definition of a closer. A closer is nice to have, but you can't close a game if you didn't score enough to get in the lead.

I like how you're changing your argument to just "pitching". Yeah, the Sox had an average offense in the first half, even with players playing below their capabilities. That's the advantage of having good offensive players. When you have a solid lineup top to bottom, you can deal with a couple of struggling players. The last thing in the world you should be doing is using Boston to prove your bullshit philosophies. When your team can have most of the lineup slump and you're still top half of the league, then you have a good offensive team. When you're middle of the pack (like the Cubs) offenisvely, and you have as many overachievers in the lineup as they have, you don't forsake offensive improvement to add another damn reliever who might pitch 20 innings the rest of the year. That's fucking stupid.

[Doc Holliday]

Carpet Lint is right, this is the most difficult era in baseball, hands down. You can't honestly believe that baseball back in the days of Mantle/Williams/Ruth/Koufax or any other legend was more difficult than it is now. The athletes of today far surpass those of any generation in any given sport. As a sports fan you should know this for a fact. Why do you think records are constantly being broken?

And why is that? Is it because people are just more genetically gifted today? Possible. Is it due to strength/speed/stamina training? More than likely. Is it because of supplements or roids? Very possible.

I'd say that sports today, everyone is doing something for an added edge in the form of strength and speed training, and supplements (legal and non-legal). I don't think there were too many guys that did that shit in the old days. So let me rephrase then: if the athletes of today did the same thing as the athletes of yesterday as far as training goes, I really don't think there would be a big difference. You're making it sound like athletes are genetically better today then back then and my point was that they all were born with skill level that was in the same ballpark. Today, you have to factor in the added edge though. I don't believe in people being born with more of an athletic gift in the present.

[Black Chanler]

*didn't read a damn thing*

it all comes down to this, how many pitchers in the league are just as juiced as this nigga?

[Grimm_Demize]

Bullpen is the most overrated thing in baseball. Yeah, good bullpen pitchers are nothing to scoff at (being sent in a pressure-cooker of a situation and coming out successful takes a lot of nerves), but if your team is really relying upon it's bullpen to win games, you're in bad shape.

In all honesty, I think a bench with competent utility and role players is much more essential to winning than a loaded bullpen. Baseball is a beast when you look at it from a season standpoint--162 games where you've got guys out there fielding, hitting and whatnot. It's mentally and physically strenuous, and you see a lot of guys getting hurt and falling into terrible slumps over the course of the year. Having guys who can fill small needs (even for an inning at a time) will actually win you more games than some lights out, flavor of the year closer or setup man could ever hope to.

It's all about OPS, scoring runs, and not getting hurt. Not home runs, saves or even RBI.

Bench >>> Bullpen

(Ohh, and an obligatory "Bonds sucks!" to stay on topic)

[SlayerofBodom]

Wait a goddamn second. Do you think A-Rod is on roids? Jeter? Coco Crisp? Ichiro Suzuki? Julio Lugo? Joe Mauer? Adrian Gonzalez? Chase Utley? Reggie Willits? Mike Lowell? Freddy Sanchez? Jose Guillen? Russell Martin?

Do you even know who half those people are? No? Then stfu.

spudly, stick to topics that you actually know something about. shinryukev is completely correct here, and you're wrong.

While it would be wrong to say that 90% of ballplayers are juicing, I can virtually guarantee 90% of them are taking stimulants.

Like I wrote in my post on the third page;

Also, understand, that different athletes have different goals. Just because someone is not taking roids doesn't mean they aren't doing a ton of other stimulants to increase their performance.

As a 7', 300 pound, muscular amateur mixed martial artist told me; "I used to take roids, but they fucked up my stamina too much. Now, I take OTHER STIMULANTS."

McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, etc. were all power hitters raising their muscle level, so they went for roids. But what about the aging pitcher doing HGH to remain competitive, or the leadoff man re-injecting his own blood (blood doping) before a huge playoff game.

But just looking at the players, you can immediately identify who is or isn't, in all likelihood, on roids.

As if we needed any further proof of your ignorance on the question of stimulants or elite-level pro sports in general, you offer this gem. "Immediately identify"??

Why, because Palmairo is so huge and muscular? Or because a guy who isn't huge clearly can't be doing any steroids to attain that body?

Give me a fucking break; as has been mentioned in this thread, drugs in sports started in the early sixties, and were fairly wide-spread in most pro sports by the seventies...you know, the era where Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's home run record?

Give Barry Bonds credit for his achievement; many tens of thousands of baseball players, professional and minor league, have taken stimulants, but only one had a career as great as the Giants' slugger.

Next time, stick to what you know.

[Carpet Lint]

Would be kinda nice if said vagina enveloped your entire head and cut off your O2 supply. That would've put the kaibosh on your little rant and saved me from reading it.
Haha, how long have you been biding your time in the shadows, waiting to get a piece? OH SHIT IT'S H82 AGAINST THE WORLD!!!

How the fuck is that a fact? That must have come from the Book o' Lint because I dont' remember reading that anywhere. If the competition is better today it's because of performance enhancing shit. Bottom line.
Are you seriously arguing against the idea that, league-wide, the quality of the players now is not any better than the quality of players 40 years ago?

The whole league over was worse back then. Hitters had bad pitchers to hit against, and pitchers had bad hitters to strike out. They were racking up like 300+ strikeout seasons back in the 60's and 70's.

- The amount of prospects and the size of each team's minor league system has increased dramatically since the 1960's, and there's much more international leagues and prospects the world over. If the amount of baseball prospects has grown expoentially since hte 1960's while the amount of major league roster spaces as remained largely the same...wouldn't you think that the players on the major league rosters from 1 to 25 would be better overall than 40 years ago? End of the line-up guys and crappy middle relief guys now in 2007 and in the 90's are collectively much better than the end of the line-up guys and middle relief corps of the 1960's and 70's, because the overall talent level has risen since there's more supply in terms of baseball talent now than there was back then.

- Training and athletism. Same with every single sport all over. Physical freaks like Lebron didn't exist back in the ABA. Steve Finley and his weird body core training methods weren't even invented yet. Every single league of every sport across the world has a higher standard of athletism and training regimen since the 1960's - questioning this would be beyond absurb. You can bring up guys like David Wells and Prince Fielder, but physiques like those are clearly now the exception, unlike back then.

- Developments of the game. For example, the split-fingered fastball wasn't even really used before the 1970's, and not popularized until Bruce Sutter came along. Now, it's just as common as the change-up. Clemens, Wang, Contreras - all heavy split-fingered fastball users, the best among many. Not a single split-fingered fastball user even existed back in the 1960's. They went with four man rotations back then, and the Cy Young winner from the one year that Hank Aaron won the MVP award (Warren Spahn, in 1957) pitched 271 innings. He pitched 310 innings back in 1951. That's insane. You throw more than 220 innings today, and your arm explodes. Clearly...there's something to be said regarding the difference of quality in the pitches from pitchers 40 years ago (who could put together 20+ injury-free seasons of 250+ innings) and pitchers today (who can put together like...five 200+ innings).

- Technology's improved a bit since the 1960's. Video is one of the game's most revolutionary developments, and it wasn't around in the 1960's. Pitchers and hitters regularly have video sessions before, after, and during a game. They have every pitcher's and every batter's single at-bat recorded and ready to be studied. Statistics and sabermetrics weren't around back then. Bill James wasn't alive. They didn't collect groundball/flyball ratios for pitchers, and have spray charts, and hot zones and whatnot back in the 1960's. The skill and stragety involved in building a roster or managing a game today is significantly different than back in the 1960's.

Furthermore, same question - how can the overall skill level of sport actually DECLINE with all the new advancements and developments to the game that we're seeing now?

The current generation of athletes is pretty much always the best. Wilt scored 100 yeah, but what if you put in an athletic freak Young Shaq from Orlando back in the 60's? What if you put in super athletic guards like Wade, Kobe, or even Vince Carter back in the 60's and had them play against the same pasty unathletic white guys that were actaully commonplace in the league back then? Would Vince still average 22 a game in the 60's, or would he probably spring for like 30?

Why's that different in baseball?

No, you're right, I don't have a time machine, and I can't convince Vince Carter to travel back in time with me and play a season in the ABA just to settle an argument I'm having with a guy over the internet. But there's a logical connection you can make in your head with common sense and the world as you understand it, right?

Do you think 1971 Muhammad Ali would kick your ass in a boxing match, or would you actually need to travel back in time and actually have your ass kicked before you could make that statement?

But since you bring up the pitchers, that reminds me of something else I wanted to say. A few of you were talking about pitchers doping too, which would make sense. What also would make sense is that due to juiced pitchers, you'd have more homers. You hold a bat straight out and don't move it. Pitcher #1 throws a 60 mph ball at it. Pitcher #2 throws a 96 mph ball at it. Which ball is going to come off the bat with greater force and land farther away?
Are you the one that's ragging on people for not understanding what steroids does?

Steroids don't turn you into the Hulk. Like five different guys have already said that.

You don't put some cream on and suddenly your fastball gets an extra 30 miles per hour on it. Steroids reduce the amount of downtime necessary before you can workout again, by stimulating muscle recovery. A guy like Canseco or Bonds used steroids so they could bulk up by lifting weights at more frequent intervals.

But the majority of steroid usage in sports is to prolong your longevity, and reduce the risk of injury or to speed up you recovery from it. The actual quantifiable bonus it gives you in terms of performance in a single game is the small picture - it's a big picture, long term thing.

And you can't add miles of velocity to your fast ball just by lifting weights. You can while you're in high school, but there's a certain point where you just max out. There's a limit to the actual structual integrity of your arm and the tendons in it, which steroids don't address. Otherwise guys like Jamie Moyer or Josh Towers could just hit the gym and crank up their 85 mph fastballs to 94 over a Rocky-training-montage-style summer.

I'll just take this one since all the examples are in the same vein. This example, like the others, are a fucking moot point. It's stupid to even throw a comment out like this because:

1. We'll never know if Ted could've hit that or not. Why even bring it up if you can't prove it and it's only your opinion?

2. Once again, your throwing out your opinion saying that he "clearly had a massive advantage hitting against shitty pitchers" How could you possibly know that?
Here's one for you then.

We'll never know if Barry Bonds was on steroids.

He's never been caught, never failed a single drug test. All we have are unproven allegations, and absolutely nothing that would stand up in a court of law. Absolutely no concrete proof.

So I say, it's only your OPINION that Barry Bonds is or was ever on steroids. You can't prove it, and it's only your opinion.

So why even bring it up?

Your making it sound like the players of today are supermen that eat thunderbolts and shit lightning. But that would be an accurate statement if they were on the gear I suppose.
Yeah, and also if the player pool had grown exponentially worldwide since the 60's.

And if technology like video, pitch tracking, and spray charts had been invented that would give players more advantages.

And if the game had evolved even a little bit, and maybe even a single player or manager ever thought of any new tactic or trick in the last 40 years.

And if knowledge about health, nutrition, and training regimens had advanced at all since the 1960's.

Yeah, I guess only if those were true.

OH WAIT...

So yeah, they were two different games.
Yes. Yes, they were.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

I'm having trouble reconciling Bond's achievement with my life as a whole. On the one hand, he has managed to hit a ball really far more than every other guy who has hit balls before and I find solace in that. On the other hand, he may have injected himself with arbitrarily illegal substances and become stronger than he would have been had he just eaten lots of chicken and tuna.

What should I do? Will talking about it for 10 more pages help?

[RockBogart]

I'm having trouble reconciling Bond's achievement with my life as a whole. On the one hand, he has managed to hit a ball really far more than every other guy who has hit balls before and I find solace in that. On the other hand, he may have injected himself with arbitrarily illegal substances and become stronger than he would have been had he just eaten lots of chicken and tuna.

What should I do? Will talking about it for 10 more pages help?

If him hitting a ball is affecting your life, then you have some other issues and you need help.

[Warpticon]

If him hitting a ball is affecting your life, then you have some other issues and you need help.

Will that help include help in sarcasm recognition?

[RockBogart]

Will that help include help in sarcasm recognition?

Knowing SRK, it wouldn't surprise me if he was serious.

[DS]

You know what's even funnier about this? When A-Rod makes it to 600 in the next two or three years, this 'roid discussion will be coming up once again. And hopefully, SRK won't be around for that because this discussion is just retarded right now. Lint and Warp are just owning up this thread.

I do like how some people are acting like steroids are what make you bigger and make you Hulk-out(read World War Hulk folks). I say let the man enjoy his little accomplishment because this only comes once in a lifetime for somebody. Barry has never had anything else to look forward to(lack of championships). Let him have his fun and now we just calmly turn our attention to A-Rod who is already destined to break the record(assuming he doesn't get injured).

Oh, and A-Rod actually slimmed down from his '06 version. He's a tough call, but I doubt he's using anything. But, you never know. I guess we'll find out in a few years.

[SlayerofBodom]

Lint and Warp are just owning up this thread.

How dare you omit my name...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was simple forgetfullness, and not intentional.


Oh, and A-Rod actually slimmed down from his '06 version. He's a tough call, but I doubt he's using anything. But, you never know. I guess we'll find out in a few years.

In all honesty, I would be shocked if Alex Rodriguez was completely clean. Athletes who don't take ANYTHING at any point in their careers are under such a huge disadvantage relative to players that do, it almost makes it impossible for them to be elite regardless of work ethic and natural ability.

Some might cry over the lack of purity inherent in this, but it's a part of modern day sports that people simply need to accept.

A big reason so many people are indignant over artificial performance enhancers is that they don't know the realities of high-level, pro sports, and have never spoken with anyone that has.

Their idealistic, idllyic, naive views of these sports are merely the product of years of feel-good movies, television series, and books. It's not an adequate reflection of reality.

[HoneyBBQGrundle]

If him hitting a ball is affecting your life, then you have some other issues and you need help.

Yeah that was kind of the point. It's fun to talk about but it's funny to me how people seem to take it so personally (mostly the people who hate Bonds). Then the same fans who are so offended by steroids keep buying more expensive tickets and supporting a league where being completely natural is the exception.

edit: and as usual, The Onion has something to say http://www.theonion.com/content/news/destruction_of_national_pastime