Playing against the computer, is it worth it?

[Spectre General]

I couldn't find any other threads about this, so hopefully this isn't a repost.

What I'm interested in is knowing if anybody thinks it's actually worth playing against the computer in fighters (on the highest difficulty of course) and why.

Of course you should do it a few times to see how the game works when you first get it to unlock shit/get a feel for characters. But other than that I personally don't really see that this is helpful. I mean can you really play the computer to "improve" your skills?

We all know that the computer plays nothing like a human opponent in almost every fighter. We also all know that there's shit that works against the computer that NEVER works against real people, and shit that works against real people that NEVER works on the computer. So isn't playing the computer actually training you to be worse at the game?

IMO the best way to beat your opponent is to know what they're gonna do before they do, and the only way you can do that is by playing your opponent.

I wanna see if there's any counterpoints to this, or any of you who got where you are today simply by playing the game on hard over and over.

[CrimsonSouls]

improves execution

[Atryu]

It will not make you a "better player" indeed, however, it's a good way to practice combos you have learned in training mode and get used to pull them out in a match.

[goodm0urning]

It's kind of nice. It's like training mode, but the other guy is (poorly) mimicking what an actual opponent might do. Good for practicing stuff you won't otherwise get by just setting the enemy to stand, crouch, jump, and so forth.

And certain characters (e.g. Akuma, most games he's appeared in) are programmed with fairly fast reaction time and appropriate counter-attacks, so you can learn to get around those as well.

[reckless]

It will not make you a "better player" indeed, however, it's a good way to practice combos you have learned in training mode and get used to pull them out in a match.

I agree.

Playing against the computer can help you get used to the game. Then again so can training mode and getting your ass handed by a better player will too.

I'm mostly stuck with playing against the computer and when I face somebody, it's pretty different. I wish I could play against more people, instead of playing the computer.

[DarkNecrid]

After playing Virtua Fighter 5, I say it is worth it.

[SaBrE]

playing computer teaches you really bad habits. i wouldnt play against it too often

[Atryu]

playing computer teaches you really bad habits. i wouldnt play against it too often

True... I guess we have to keep a balance of 80% of human versus and 20% of CPU training.

When I plya vs. the CPU, my goal is not to win (as you usually can by just throwing random specials anyway) but I just repeat the same phase/setup/combo over and over to get my hands used to the execution.

It is better IMO to do it on a "moving" character than in trining mode.

[pbj_mixxa]

As a personal preference, I tend to prefer not take on CPUs at their highest difficulty. I've noticed that, no matter the CPU, they are incredibly predictable at the highest difficulty. Therefore, I always choose either a level off the highest or mid.

But, overall, I'd say use CPUs for practice and to figure out which combos are appropriate in which situation. Use high level CPUs ONLY to increase your reaction time. Otherwise, you might end up picking up bad habits.

[JackTenrac!]

The trouble with the CPU(ACTION: CPU) is that it can only go so far. You'll probably understand its' behavior patterns after a few months. He doesn't make an effort to utilize the character's strengths and weaknesses effective. i.e. He'd still spam shoryukens and chains. Even in Versus Mode(2P set as CPU controlled) for some Capcom games, where the CPU can simulate a player more accurately than its' Arcade brothren. It's not as challenging and more different than an actual opponent, but it could benefit you better if you're just practicing timing of combos as stated before.

SNK's CPU mode in 2k2 has proven differently since it actually has a Final Boss difficulty setting for each character in Practice Mode, but still. Algorithims are similar. The CPU in SNK, at high level difficulty, uses alot of mid range chains and cancels. Sometimes he actually reacts as good as a mid level player. Still doesn't replace the threat of a real, thinking opponent.

Better to play against opponents through either the interweb or in real life. Like find someone you can train with who can virtually rape the crap out of you. My Elena has gotten better because of this one new practice alone.

Just for the viewers at home, what are some examples of bad habits? Don't think I'll be able to get them all.

[Spectre General]

I agree.

Playing against the computer can help you get used to the game. Then again so can training mode and getting your ass handed by a better player will too.

I'm mostly stuck with playing against the computer and when I face somebody, it's pretty different. I wish I could play against more people, instead of playing the computer.

I expected to hear this actually, I know there's a lot of people out there who don't really have a lot of comp, and I can see how that may suck. It's sure enough easier to just turn the game on and play against the computer no matter where you are or how much comp you have though, which is one reason I think it's a good question.

I know the best way I've learned fighters is by having other human players beat the hell outta me with certain characters, then I can say "oh, that's how you use that character." Wheras if you mimic the computer, you're sure to lose every time.

As a personal preference, I tend to prefer not take on CPUs at their highest difficulty. I've noticed that, no matter the CPU, they are incredibly predictable at the highest difficulty. Therefore, I always choose either a level off the highest or mid.

But, overall, I'd say use CPUs for practice and to figure out which combos are appropriate in which situation. Use high level CPUs ONLY to increase your reaction time. Otherwise, you might end up picking up bad habits.

I never thought about that, I just always assumed the highest difficulty was the "hardest" and therefore the best for training, but it is true that it's predictable. Are you sure it's less predictable on a middle difficulty though?

[arstal]

Honestly, if you have no way to play opponents- your best remaining option is online play of some sort. It's not perfect, but it's better then CPU.

[kof4life]

Just for the viewers at home, what are some examples of bad habits? Don't think I'll be able to get them all.

Lemme see some of what I've gotten stuck with...In 3S, the CPU has me jumping in too much, attacking in patterns, and throwing out supers when I shouldn't. It takes a while to shake off the tendencies, lemme tell you.

[Shinryuuken_SA2]

Good for practicing execution, like how to do super moves on command, AC counters on reaction, etc, inputs, and mechanic stuff. Essentially a dynamic punching bag.

Not good for your gameplans and such. Leans you bad habits. You shouldn't be trying to actually beat the computer as if it was a challenger, but more like practicing stuff on a moving target. As long as you keep that in mind I think playing against the cpu can only help.

The computer is pretty much reactionary; watch the cpu doing some random stuff when you're doing nothing.

[purifyweirdsoul]

Somewhat depends on the game, too.

If you have a programmable training mode, then imo that's better than playing the CPU. Takes time to set up, but it's a good way to prepare yourself for what real players do.

[Torn Apart]

sometimes the CPU in KoFXI can help. Like with execution and learning how to punish and doing anit-airs. But thats about it. At higher levels, the CPU get retarded. You get Iori's that psychic dp you and Whip's and Kensou's that block everything (seriously EVERYTHING).

[The_Trigger]

Lemme see some of what I've gotten stuck with...In 3S, the CPU has me jumping in too much, attacking in patterns, and throwing out supers when I shouldn't. It takes a while to shake off the tendencies, lemme tell you.

All true.

To add from my personal list of habits I had to fix: Throwing random specials, using moves with lots of recovery time with no threat of being punished, using reversal shoryu/super/etc. on wakeup whenever I got knocked down (CPU either doesn't block or doesn't punish,) and the list goes on.

I think the worst thing about playing the CPU is that you can't develop proper mindgames. The CPU will not fall for/improperly react to crossups, empty jumps, whiffs, etc. where a human player might. That's the part of my game that needs the most work, as I've had to burn away 10+ years of bad habits from only having CPU competition.

[sailorsaturn]

i play on low difficulty so i can show off to chicks.

[Vic Viper]

As a personal preference, I tend to prefer not take on CPUs at their highest difficulty. I've noticed that, no matter the CPU, they are incredibly predictable at the highest difficulty. Therefore, I always choose either a level off the highest or mid.

So that could explain why MvC2's Level 8 CPU seems like a Level 2. I guess all the Marvel VS games are like that.

[TS]

Reinforces the basics. I just started playinCvS2, and I practice RCs vs the CPU.

More broadly, it will teach you the stuff you need to be able to do consistently- combos, and taking advantage of damage opportunities, etc. It helps with new games- I picked up VF4 not too long ago, and it takes a while to get used to blocking, throw breaks, dodging, when to attack, when to stop to avoid being sidestepped, etc. The only fighting games I've been hardcore into were Capcom 2D fighters, and despite the variety among them, they had at least some of the basics in common.

Of course, the CPU generally does teach bad habits in terms of psychology, as the CPU will react differently than the average player- in A3 you can do jump in combos vs the CPU all day (usually a bad idea), but ironically it will tech. 90% of throws- so something that would get you killed vs good players is encouraged, and something that might net you actual damage is discouraged.

[KrsJin]

i play on low difficulty so i can show off to chicks.

Yeah that'd be the most beneficial thing to do against the computer. Hot chix though. Not just any ordinary ones.

Like other have said. Helps practice your execution outside of training mode a bit. Helps teach you some randomness. You might pick up some combos/setups you wern't aware of by watching the CPU react. Just don't use it as a crutch, or a replacement to human opponents by anymeans. And try not to spend much time in on it. I'd say that 80% Human players, and 20% CPU time that Atryu came up with sounds pretty ideal, to me anyway.

[Biolink]

Eh Maybe.

No reason to play against it other than to practice combo's and goof off at how retarded it can be.

The computer on Marvel vs Capcom 2 is the worst of all though.It feels no fucking different at the highest level than it does facing the default Level 3(IIRC)computer.

[Dasrik]

It won't make you a better player, but venting your anger on the CPU is fine. The computer won't kick your ass in RL for taunting a lot.

[goodm0urning]

Also, if you want a great exercise in frustration, play SSF2T with the difficulty maxed. It won't teach you much in the way of strategy, but it will teach you to cope with the utterly maddening situation of having your moves stuffed before they have a chance to come out, and opponents who miraculously forget that they have to charge their moves.

[pherai]

Strategy isn't the only aspect to how good a player you are. Playing against the comp certainly won't improve your strategy, but it will improve execution, and its great practice for hit confirms. Just don't expect any of your crazy mixups to work.

[N_paul]

The biggest thing that kills usefulness for playing against CPU is definitely the fact that it destroy's any chance of practicing mixups. High Low mixups just don't exist to the computer; and grabs are teched in most games that allow it.

Even worse is that CPUs tend to die to random supers. CPUs also don't punish.

[Shin Akuma]

What about the ST CPU?

Let's say that you have no high-level competition in your area for ST... does the ST CPU compensate for it?

I know that it cheats:It does more damage than you.
It's has faster reflexes.
It does really cheap shit (ie - Blanka Bite or Boxer Headbutt for half life)(correct me if I'm wrong)

but despite that, can it be used to simulate high-level play?

I like playing against the CPU in ST because it actually does shit and fights back.

[Hayama Akito]

It worth for practice your combos of course.

The only game that i know that the CPU made some pro player-like combos is in Fatal Fake... damn i hate that CPU so MUCH.

[PersonaDark]

I'd say that Akatasuki Blitzkampf's AI's pretty beastly on Vanhall and Heilheim. I learned how to parry solely from trying to survive when I first played, and it did alter it's combos depending on the situation like a player would.

Also, did anyone else ever have their game's AI actually pick up combos and strategies they'd use? I've seen it on three games that we put an ungodly amount of time playing into: MVC2 AI, Melty Blood react AI after our tournment with it, and Guilty Gear X2. They wouldn't always execute it at the best times, but they would preform stuff like Roman Cancel combos or fight in a way it previously wouldn't.

[Hatred Edge]

Fighting the CPU messes you up. For instance take Akuma in 3rd Strike. Akuma is all about the rushdown. Now I have 3rd strike and I play Akuma. Can i play offense with Akuma? Hell no! Why? Becase the CPU hinders the skill development of the player. Some might say the CPU is smart. I disagree. Here's proof:
1. In KOF XI pick a character with a dp like Kyo or K'. Now poke with things like 2A and 2B,5A,5B and so forth. When the attack gets blocked and the CPU makes their move do a dp. This works TOO damn well. I beat the CPU doing just that. No combos, no DMs, no quickshift.
2. SF 3 3rd Strike. Again pick someone with a dp like Akuma. Now poke and when the CPU makes their move dp again or Messatsu Gou shoryu. This works even on max. ANother is Akuma's Zanku hadouken. Vs Ryu. Now is the CPU was worth fighting why do they keep falling for zanku hadouken? they never air parry it. Do it and watch Ryu jump up at you with a shoryu KNOWING THAT HE HAS ALREADY READ THE INPUT FOR Zanku hadouken. He eats a zanku.
3. GGXX accent core. Now Sol's gun flame feint has a hitbox. Great. Now dash into the corner deep like a full screen between you and the CPU and do GFF. NOw watch in amazement as the CPU crouches and blocks.... an attack that cannot hit them...
Fighting the CPU will make you better..by 15% at the most. Mixups do not work. Pokes, setups the whole 9 do not work. Sweeps fail alot. This of course has an impact on the players mind. The player begins to believe that these vs tips (which of course they got from players way above their level of skill) are worthless. You can't poke with this or counter with that. The CPU isn't a good opponent to fight.
You know what? Play Accent core. Fight anyone that's a pain in the ass for you like Sol vs faust. Play for about an hour or two. tell me if you make any progress.

Edit: The above DOES NOT apply to VF. Their CPU does make you better.

[Slide]

The CPU doesn't adapt or learn from mistakes(yours or its own).

[reckless]

Also, if you want a great exercise in frustration, play SSF2T with the difficulty maxed. It won't teach you much in the way of strategy, but it will teach you to cope with the utterly maddening situation of having your moves stuffed before they have a chance to come out, and opponents who miraculously forget that they have to charge their moves.

I love playing SSF2T, but I avoid it simply because of the computer. So in short I don't play it much. :sad:

[ST Vega]

Saying fighting against the cpu is gonna make you worse is extremely short sighted. A good player will know that the computer isn't gonna help you much in terms of mixups, but will do wonders for execution and punishment.

I couldn't punish the simplest of things in 3s until I started practicing against the computer and working on my execution and being able to pull it off in a match.

[_Snake_]

Also, if you want a great exercise in frustration, play SSF2T with the difficulty maxed. It won't teach you much in the way of strategy, but it will teach you to cope with the utterly maddening situation of having your moves stuffed before they have a chance to come out, and opponents who miraculously forget that they have to charge their moves.

QFT :rofl: Don't forget the 50% health Machine Gun Uppercut.

[Z!M]

the only CPU I can get anything out of is the SC2 and SC3 cpu on max. and thats just learning to parry and repel the right attacks. god knows you can mix up or even be aggressive against the cpu on those games cause you get owned. it has helped with my timing in 3rd strike, practicing parrys is usefull cause i know the the chun cpu on max will do 3 low attacks then fireball then jump stomp.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

If you are a total noob, then the CPU is great. It helps you understand the basics and gets you comforatable with your character/team. Once you get really good, the CPU is good for practcing certain set ups, as mentioned, it is a glorified punching bag.

[pherai]

Saying fighting against the cpu is gonna make you worse is extremely short sighted. A good player will know that the computer isn't gonna help you much in terms of mixups, but will do wonders for execution and punishment.

QFT. I don't understand why you would try to practice mixups in the first place. It seems logical these things wouldn't work. It's the same principle as trying to use high level mindgames on a masher. There is no reason for this crap to work, but doing it anyway is just telling of how bad a player you are.

[Tone!]

What about the ST CPU?

Let's say that you have no high-level competition in your area for ST... does the ST CPU compensate for it?

I know that it cheats:It does more damage than you.
It's has faster reflexes.
It does really cheap shit (ie - Blanka Bite or Boxer Headbutt for half life)(correct me if I'm wrong)

but despite that, can it be used to simulate high-level play?

I like playing against the CPU in ST because it actually does shit and fights back.

Despite the fact that I can't fight it for shit, even the ST CPU moves in patterns that can be exploited after a while.. I've seen it happen.

[JubeiNinja69]

improve execution yes, but for mind games, no.

[Ephidel]

The CPU basically follows a string of codes via difficulty level. No matter how improved it gets, there's always a glitch you will notice in movement patterns, attacks, and combos. This will give you the edge in execution, but no real timing against a regular human opponent.

edit - I guess it's worth it for a while, but not something of a daily process.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

I play against the CPU just to practice my moves...except when I played Marvel. I had no comp and no netplay, so I just played the computer.

[n8archer_XI]

I play the computer to practice combos, and because I know it's the most consistent opponent I can find....

[Dhalsimowns]

After playing the computer for a period of time I come back and do horribly for the same amount of time when I play people again. Thats why i dont even bother playing teh cpu at any game anymore.

The cpu will fall for the most ridiculous stuff ever but of course counter and auto it you when your doing sensibly progressive or inovative attacks that would work on people. So after a doing the predictable stuff that destorys the cpu over and over again for some reason, I do the same thing against other people out of habit and get wrecked.

The best example of this is t5dr. The computer will fall for the same 3 moves ever single time. I destroy each opponent with these moves from a stationary position.
For me its not worth it anymore because it dulls my refelxes and inovation for real opponents. Its like getting"trained" to do repetitve and stupid things to win. no ty.

[RaiJinKen]

It's a waste of time.

The only thing the AI of Super Turbo did for me was to make me lose interest in the game. And realize how stupid and sadistic human beings can be.

I mean seriously. Who the fuck can extract anything good from that. Most FG programmers are not interested in making you improve, they just want you to lose. And in certains games, they just want to humiliate you. It was after I started playing fighting games that I developed this profound despise for game designers in general.

I think one player mode in fighting games shouldn't even exist. They should be 2-player only. I mean, we're in 2007 and fighting game AI is still programmed like in 1995??? This genre is pathetic. Granted, the AI today is much more forgiving than in the old days. Games like ST, X-Men COTA, and old SNK games like Samurai Spirits II are ridiculously hard, nearly unplayable. But just making the games easier to beat is not enough, they need to be programmed to teach you something useful. They need to make you feel you're really fighting an opponent and not yourself. By "fighting yourself" I mean stupid things like triggering a super because I pressed jab, not because the AI analized the momentum and figured that I could potentially be hit by a super at that particular moment of the match.

Tekken is so fucking stupid. If you're upclose and use any move with more than 10 frame startup you will be automatically countered. Hell, all that you have to do is tap forward and the computer will detect and attack you. So all you can do is spam fast mid moves like Mishimas df+4,4 or moves that the computer never blocks like Jin's d+1. If you do that, ultra hard becomes ultra easy, but you're not learning anything. If you try to play the game like it should be played, using high/low mixups, throw setups, all this high level stuff...you will always lose. You will never be rewarded for trying to play the game the right way.

Garou is another horrible game to play vs the computer....all it does is walk forward, sweep if you stand, A+B if you crouch, jump if you throw fireball, block/counter anything else. That's it. It's so freaking robotic that pisses me off and makes me lose.

I know making a good fighting game is not an easy task by any means, buy I think all these AI issues in fighting games should already have been addressed by the developers. People talk a lot about VF5, and if what they say is true, that's great. But the other companies need to stop being lazy and step their shit up as well.

[goodm0urning]

Most FG programmers are not interested in making you improve, they just want you to lose. And in certains games, they just want to humiliate you. It was after I started playing fighting games that I developed this profound despise for game designers in general.Yes, because game companies have a vested interest in alienating the people who buy their products, right?

Either that or, you know, some folks might think twice about buying a game if they can only play it when company comes over.

I think one player mode in fighting games shouldn't even exist. They should be 2-player only.Very good. Give casual gamers even less of a reason to buy it and force fighting games even further into the realm of the niche market. Super idea.

[Slide]

Saying fighting against the cpu is gonna make you worse is extremely short sighted. A good player will know that the computer isn't gonna help you much in terms of mixups, but will do wonders for execution and punishment.

I couldn't punish the simplest of things in 3s until I started practicing against the computer and working on my execution and being able to pull it off in a match.

Execution and punishment?
Can't you get that in practice mode?

Playing the cpu just creates muscle memory of playing like a drone, imo.

My best execution and punishment leaps, all happen during fights against someone else. Does that happen to anyone else too? Moves and combinations I couldn't even get out or struggled with in practice mode, all of a sudden can come out when playing against someone else.

The cpu can make you worse just like playing opponents way under your current skill levels, you get used to the cpu's or lower level's meta game and get content. Then your senses get shocked or you get that wakeup call real fast. It's like being out in the heat and sun, then running into the AC.

It's like you lose matches you knew you could've won otherwise. <- I know everyone's had those.

[shoultzula]

Thnx to cpu in marvel, I found out about 2 things that may change the way game could be played from now on not to mention countless strider tricks I came up with that were inspired by the cpu.

Its all about how you use it, not how bad\good the 1p mode is and by default, mvc2 has the worst arcade mode ever.

[ST Vega]

Execution and punishment?
Can't you get that in practice mode?

Playing the cpu just creates muscle memory of playing like a drone, imo.

My best execution and punishment leaps, all happen during fights against someone else. Does that happen to anyone else too? Moves and combinations I couldn't even get out or struggled with in practice mode, all of a sudden can come out when playing against someone else.

The cpu can make you worse just like playing opponents way under your current skill levels, you get used to the cpu's or lower level's meta game and get content. Then your senses get shocked or you get that wakeup call real fast. It's like being out in the heat and sun, then running into the AC.

It's like you lose matches you knew you could've won otherwise. <- I know everyone's had those.

Nah. Take third strike for example. You record a shoto doing a low sweep, and then before the move comes out you're saying to yourself, "okay, I know a low sweep is coming. I know it's -17 frames (?), so I'm gonna punish with this." Against the computer, you don't have that completely predictable nature. Just like in a real match, you learn to punish on reaction, instead of always relying on baiting something out.

[Slide]

Nah. Take third strike for example. You record a shoto doing a low sweep, and then before the move comes out you're saying to yourself, "okay, I know a low sweep is coming. I know it's -17 frames (?), so I'm gonna punish with this." Against the computer, you don't have that completely predictable nature. Just like in a real match, you learn to punish on reaction, instead of always relying on baiting something out.

You mean like in some games how:

Ken does a jab dp, followed by a strong dp, then an extremely out of the blue unpredictable fierce dp :looney:

[terracotta]

You mean like in some games how:

Ken does a jab dp, followed by a strong dp, then an extremely out of the blue unpredictable fierce dp :looney:

lol that pattern is older than the Morrigan sprite.

to be fair though, the effect of playing against the CPU is that it simulates the sense of urgency you'd have fighting a real opponent. most people learn faster when there's positive/negative reinforcement for good/bad behavior, and the "YOU LOSE" screen isn't something you see often in training mode.

===

it's also the fastest ways to get surface-level familiarity with the entire cast's move set in a short period of time.