Sooo what's up with Super Turbo?

[Master Chibi]

Well, apparently at Evolution, somehow it was found out that ST in CCC2 has input lag (old news by now I'm sure). I'm not sure why it took almost a year to notice it, but now things are back to square one.

Or are they?

This is a question to ST players, OG or new, that compose the community nowadays.

What's going on? Are people still going to go with CCC2? Are they going back to the Dreamcast version? AE with ST characters?

What's up?

(If any of this information is incorrect, pleast let me know and I will edit it accordingly).

[Ghaleon]

Trying to figure out what to do for our next tourney, I talked to people like Justin and NKI and everyone said use the DC ver for now, despite its faults. It's def a shame about CCC2.

[Master Chibi]

Justin doesn't even like ST, I'm surprised he gave you advice on the matter ;p.

So going with the Dreamcast version is just the lesser of two evils then?

Also (not pointing fingers) why did it take so long to figure out there was input lag?

[AMinorThreat]

I think people need to put some more valid research out besides the speeds that the levels go at, I'm not sure if i believe the whole input lag yet.

[Bobbypigo]

Dreamcast (IMHO) is like cheese. . . delicious!

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Justin doesn't even like ST, I'm surprised he gave you advice on the matter ;p.

So going with the Dreamcast version is just the lesser of two evils then?

Also (not pointing fingers) why did it take so long to figure out there was input lag?

I honestly don't know why it took so goddamn long for people to notice. I noticed it was off the first time I played it. The only version I played before CCC2 was on my xbox via emulator. The emu was not perfect, but CCC2 felt messed up from the start.

Gian and his crew were in my hotel room the night before Evo, and the first thing he says after playing CCC2 is that there is lag and canceled his money matches.

[StuartHayden]

There was talk in Seattle about using the PSX version. :bluu: Iunno if they followed through though. They mighta' went back to AE w/ ST characters only since that was their other alternative.

-SH

[Arsenal]

So... out of all the main 2D fighters, ST has the worst options to choose from? That sucks for ST heads...

[Master Chibi]

Gian and his crew were in my hotel room the night before Evo, and the first thing he says after playing CCC2 is that there is lag and canceled his money matches.

I heard that as well, but has this been confirmed?

As of now all I'm seeing is 'it feels different / wrong'.

:looney:

[Ghaleon]

Not blaming either, but from what I remember:

After our tourney last December, OH's main ST players and Justin all said they didn't like it. Sirlin posted in our thread though saying it was arcade emulation, so basically perfect, and we needed to play in arcade mode, not vs. And a lot of other people (I think DSP chiefly, correct if wrong Phil) defended CCC2 from then on, and that was a wrap.

NKI told me too that everyone canceled their MMs after trying at it Evo too.

After popping in the DC ver (I never played ST back when, and I never ever tried the DC copy), there is def lag on CCC2. Not to mention the speeds are very off on CCC2, and even differs btw stages. I understand complaints about DC hitbox issues, but it's stable and has no lag, at least. I think it is a lesser-of-the-evils thing.

Fuck it let's just do 3DO. Or better yet the DOS version, at least it has a better soundtrack. That hot synth guitar.

[Macumazahn]

My understanding was that dreamcast hardware had lag regardless. Isn't that why no body liked 3s on Dreamcast? Doesn't that mean that the Dreamcast lags for ST also or was 3s just a random case?

[Pablo_the_Mex]

The timing is off, so that probably screws everything up. Some tests by the seattle screw have revealed that sometimes Speed 2 is faster than 3, and speed 3 is off completely. I am sure that has something to do with it feeling "off".

EDIT

I believe the reason for CCC2 being used is because by the time EVO rolled around, there was no point in switching. Zass made a great post in the EVO forum proposing that the Evo standard be changed, but the thread was eventually closed.

[Arsenal]

Not blaming either, but from what I remember:

After our tourney last December, OH's main ST players and Justin all said they didn't like it. Sirlin posted in our thread though saying it was arcade emulation, so basically perfect, and we needed to play in arcade mode, not vs. And a lot of other people (I think DSP chiefly, correct if wrong Phil) defended CCC2 from then on, and that was a wrap.

NKI told me too that everyone canceled their MMs after trying at it Evo too.

After popping in the DC ver (I never played ST back when, and I never ever tried the DC copy), there is def lag on CCC2. Not to mention the speeds are very off on CCC2, and even differs btw stages.

So... play CCC2 in Arcade mode, not Versus, and most problems will be resolved? Doesn't input lag effect the game in general though, regardless of what mode you're playing in?

[Pablo_the_Mex]

So... play CCC2 in Arcade mode, not Versus, and most problems will be resolved? Doesn't input lag effect the game in general though, regardless of what mode you're playing in?

Same shit all around.

[Ghaleon]

DC hardware itself does not randomly lag -- Marvel would be dead if that was the case, haha. The 3s port is just jacked.

CCC2 lags in both modes. I think I read that on CCC1 has the same lag, but I haven't played the HF port on there in awhile to check.

[Murt!]

Let's hope HD Remix is arcade perfect.

[Half-Ro]

Let's hope HD Remix is arcade perfect.




/Wit it.



Lots of trouble trying to play st, sheesh.

[Tigerboi]

ST is hopeless.

My boy Jason (he has the arcade board for the game) told me about the problems with CCC2 ST so I knew about them for a while.

Why did it take everyone so long to notice? Denial? :P

[pc1x1]

I think the standard should be AE with ST only, but at this point, we can all forget about arcade perfect, has been that way for a good while now.

[Gasp]

DC hardware itself does not randomly lag -- Marvel would be dead if that was the case.

we're running outta dreamcasts son :(

[Arsenal]

True... what does Marvel do when DCs have dried up and gone the way of the dinosaur? The PS2 fighters can at least feign death because of backwards compatibility on PS3/PS4/PS5/etc... (even though there are logistical problems with that too, it's better than not having access to the game at all).

[shoultzula]

I'm a hardcore marvel player and I can tell you DC's don't last long. Our local crew has busted up 3 dc's in 2 years just from playing marvel. Most of the time, the power supply goes bad. Then the constant unplugging of the ports can cause the ports to blow out. You also have the blue screen crap when 2 sticks of different voltages get togehter. Apparently, the DC doesn't like fluctating voltages coming out of its ports.

I'm trying to get into ST and everytime I pick it up, theres something wrong with each version. When it got switched over to CCC2 this year, I quit trying to play the damn game. Lets just cross our fingers and hope that ST HD becomes the new standard.

If ST HD isn't a perfect arcade port, the ST og's have to sit down and choose one final copy that will be the tournament standard from then on. If you can't have it arcade perfect, there no use crying over spilled milk. Capcom will eventually stop re-releasing this damn game. Pick a copy, and let the young bloods like me master the game.

[Gasp]

port fuse blow outs can be fixed i dont know about the power supply issue

eventually like fossil fuels this is gonna become a problem
and
this might be the deathknell for arcade perfect ST or ST as a whole (i honestly feel sthd has too much work cut out for it)

[Zaelar]

In regards to AE with ST only, the only issues I heard that were a problem with it were you can't tech grabs against O. characters, and O. Sagat being a little different, but that might have been caused by people just picking super Sagat without holding start(or was it select?). Just ban O. characters too and we're good~

[DS]

In regards to AE with ST only, the only issues I heard that were a problem with it were you can't tech grabs against O. characters, and O. Sagat being a little different, but that might have been caused by people just picking super Sagat without holding start(or was it select?). Just ban O. characters too and we're good~

Vega also had improper inputs with his walldives.

[EvilSamurai]

There is always emulation...

[DS]

There is always emulation...

They've(the EVO staff) already stated that it is one of the worst options. Granted button mapping is universal, but setting up this stuff is just too annoying. That's like trying to get 16 superguns for pools. Trying to cut the work in half, not increase it.

[LuvMyCap]

I love these guys, but first they said ST in CCC2 is arcade perfect buy it,then they cover it up until HD is coming out and said buy HD that is gona probably be arcade perfect.

[tataki]

Vega also had improper inputs with his walldives.

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-40-49-en-15-street%2Bfighter%2Bhyper%2Bcapkore-70-1pg0.html
(http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-40-49-en-15-street%2Bfighter%2Bhyper%2Bcapkore-70-1pg0.html)
Glitches fixed from original release
This Capkore release is not just a re-release of the original HSFII, but there are some significant tweaks that fixed some of the old bugs (most notably SuperX Balrog's wall jump command which was almost impossible to pull off in the original release). If you want to play HSFII the way it was meant to be played, this might be worth picking up.

[DS]

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-40-49-en-15-street%2Bfighter%2Bhyper%2Bcapkore-70-1pg0.html
(http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-40-49-en-15-street%2Bfighter%2Bhyper%2Bcapkore-70-1pg0.html)
Glitches fixed from original release
This Capkore release is not just a re-release of the original HSFII, but there are some significant tweaks that fixed some of the old bugs (most notably SuperX Balrog's wall jump command which was almost impossible to pull off in the original release). If you want to play HSFII the way it was meant to be played, this might be worth picking up.

Yeah, that I knew about, but I doubt anyone has the energy to care about it anymore. Everyone will still find something to complain about in the long run. =/

[Eduardo24]

Also, Super sagat in AE is not the same as o. sagat.

[JubeiNinja69]

i think ccc2 should still be used for it being the closest version to arcade ST. unless peeps want to jump to ST HD which could/could not be a good port of ST.

[CapMaster]

I'm still fine with CCC2.

[Gasp]

maybe we should get top players opinions yea?

[Axel Kelly]

no CCC2

no

please no

Use DC for now, the character sizes aren't off at all

anything but CCC2 :)

[power333]

I love these guys, but first they said ST in CCC2 is arcade perfect buy it,then they cover it up until HD is coming out and said buy HD that is gona probably be arcade perfect.

ST HD will not be arcade perfect. I dont think developers have said that. It will not be changed, but I doubt they can guarantee an arcade perfect game with so many changes. And who cares about arcade perfect? Half of the Evo attendings were kids when ST was being barely played at arcades.


And every game is great and perfect until you lose at it.

[SaBrE]

dc version is the least annoying. ccc2 is the worst version.

stHD will be next. do i think it will translate well to HD and all the snazzy new graphics and still be arcade perfect? my guess is no. but now here comes a rebalance mode with STHD. if original doesnt come out right, we can give up and just go to rebalance mode and treat it as a new game. theres nothing to base this "new version" off of, since, **gasp**, its a new version. the problem is tho, we are at the point where all capcom games are dinosaurs now. been playing the same games for years and years, will anyone accept an update this late?


for instance, would anyone accept a new sf3 revision? since we've been playing 3s for like 8 years, unchanged? we've been so used to the same thing in a certain game, that i dunno if most people can accept the change now and accept a 4th version, much less, a 6th version for sf2(7th if you count hyper as an upgrade). its no longer a 6 month or 12 month upgrade like it was in the 90's. we are talking 8-10 years now for the next revision. its a tough one

im personally all for the rebalance mode to take over. make things a little more fresh. and eliminating the worries of the game not translating well to console, since its a new version. only problem we would have to worry about(other than tiers) is the massive speed issues and each stage and glitches

[Onikage]

3 DCs in 2 years? What the hell are you doing to them? I'm on my second in 7 years. And the first had no case for > 6 months. Kitchen fans ftw.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Here's my take on it:

CCC2 at EVO: I can't tell if it has a frame or two of lag or not. None of the console games have ever "felt" the same to me as playing on the arcade. I attribute most of that to sitting down and playing with a controller on my lap though. But I can easily see how the console version could be a frame(maybe 2) off. Regardless, people had almost a year to practice up with CCC2 and change their timing if need be. I don't really see the point in bitching so much about it. The speed problems however, are pretty lame.

Between now and EVO 2K8: I think each small group of people can just pick whatever they like(Arcade, EMU, CCC2, DC). My guess is that in smaller communities, it'll be easier to pick a format that everyone will like. And, in the long run, I don't think it'll matter which version you use because...

EVO 2K8: Unless it's spectacularly horrible, my guess is that we'll be usin' ST:HDR. Bet it! The only question will be weather to use the, i'm sure imperfect, "Arcade" mode or to use the remix mode. I might change my opinion if it sucks, but at this point, I'd say let's go with remix mode. It'll make it new for everyone, and since it's new, nobody will have any room to bitch about minor things. Just learn the "new" game and play :wgrin:

[Ghaleon]

Everyone interested in this thread should prob read at least the last couple pages of the Evo2K7 ST results thread. A lot of qu's and suggestions in here are solved there already, like CapKore HSFII, etc.

Saying the lag is fine in CCC2 is like saying we should hold majors over XBL. Lag definitely there, and no, it's not something people should have to adapt to for tourney purposes.

Wilson was saying don't expect arcade perfection out of ST:HD's original mode -- hope he's wrong, but seems like every console ST gets messed up some.

Man I pray daily for a 3s revision ...

[jugoso]

besides '-guile, '-sagat and '-zangief (which, in my opinion, should be less bitched about), what else's wrong with AE? I've the japanese version and seems tournament playable to me. Okay... it's NOT ST, but let's face it, you won't get ST in a big tournament. Once we agree on this... why not try AE not as ST, but as AE itself?

[SweetJohnnyV]

Saying the lag is fine in CCC2 is like saying we should hold majors over XBL. Lag definitely there, and no, it's not something people should have to adapt to for tourney purposes.

There's a big, big, BIG difference between having your input be 1 frame off and XBL lag. For starters, on live there's input lag AND net lag. And what's really bad about net lag is that it's constantly changing while you play. You can't really learn to adapt to that. But that's not what we're talking about here.

For arguments sake, let's say that CCC2 has 1 frame of lag. That means your inputs are ALWAYS one frame off. This means that all of your combos will work 100%. Once you press the button for your first move, the timing for all of the other inputs will be the same as it always has. There's only two things that change:

Reversal Moves - To perfectly time a reversal, you'd need to press the button one frame earlier. It is certainly possible to adapt to this and if you use the piano input method, it shouldn't matter that much to begin with.

Reacting to Stuff - Yup, you've lost a frame. And that sucks. And in extremely tight circumstances it might bite you. And yes, that'd suck.

FWIW, I wasn't at all meaning to imply that I think CCC2 is perfect or that I like the fact that the stage speeds are screwed up or that there may be button lag. I started playing SF in the arcade when it came out, and got out of the scene for a while when everything was goin' all console. I'd be exstatic if we actually played on real arcade machines! But unfortunately, that's not the case.

All I was trying to get at is that everyone knew for almost a year that we were gonna use CCC2. If they practiced up on an arcade machine, on an emu, on the DC, or whatever and were surprised to find that the timing felt off, then the bad is on them. They should've practiced on the version they knew would be played.

At any rate, I think all of this is moot, since I expect that next year we'll be playing ST:HDR. And if we've learned anything from the problems with CCC2 this year, AE last year, and so on, then the people who really want to compete in ST will pick up a 360, get ST:HDR, and practice on that :tup:

[Murt!]

HD Remix won't replace ST for the same reason that the ST players can't decide on a tournament worthy version.

[Ghaleon]

Actually if ST:HD gets adopted, Playstation 3 will prob be the system, just cos of cheap (i.e. not $90 apiece) convertors. As much as I dislike the system, it will be better suited for tourney games that are multi-platform.

[Demon Dash]

You're a scrub?[/woof]

[DevilJin 01]

I think it's intereting how the ST players are extremely picky about their game but there's not quite as much complaining about the PS2 port of 3S. Granted...there isn't any real input lag and most stuff works...but there are still things that aren't 100 percent and PS2 3S plays a bit faster than the arcade port. Which you think would cause trouble with hit confirming for Japanese players and certain unblockables still dont work at all or dont work 100 percent like they do in the arcade. The game simply mimics the way the unblockables worked in the arcade. Which I'm sure causes them to not work 100 percent exactly the way they would in the arcade.

Yet...it just seems that in general the PS2 port is accepted enough to play in tournament. I guess it's just because a lot of the crowd that plays 3S today started getting serious with the PS2 version of the game. I guess the Japanese just get adjusted to it or dont mind the speed increase.

[arstal]

dc version is the least annoying. ccc2 is the worst version.

stHD will be next. do i think it will translate well to HD and all the snazzy new graphics and still be arcade perfect? my guess is no. but now here comes a rebalance mode with STHD. if original doesnt come out right, we can give up and just go to rebalance mode and treat it as a new game. theres nothing to base this "new version" off of, since, **gasp**, its a new version. the problem is tho, we are at the point where all capcom games are dinosaurs now. been playing the same games for years and years, will anyone accept an update this late?



I"m open to giving this option a fair chance. I mean, for all we know- it might be better then arcade ST. If it sells well, might convince Capcom to make a sequal to it, with more frames, and a non-sucky Adon... I can only wish

[Humbag]

if i can hit confirm on ps2 (3s) then japan shouldnt have any trouble either

ive never had trouble with the unblockables either

[SaBrE]

deviljin, the differences between arcade and ps2 3s vs any version of console ST and arcade is like night and day.

theres nothing significantly wrong with console ps2 really other than slight speed increase(which every console port seems to have) and the unthrowable akuma overhead. as for urien, i seen people do his shit well on ps2 and arcade. all the same retarded setups. seems to be just fine to me. but then again, im not a urien player.

ST, any console has pretty drastic problems that are unique to each version. 3s really doesnt.

jugoso: uh we used AE at evo 2k6. it was a massive ce bison/ce guile fest. horrible competitive game, but its fun casual

[Hanzo_Hasashi]

for instance, would anyone accept a new sf3 revision? since we've been playing 3s for like 8 years, unchanged? we've been so used to the same thing in a certain game, that i dunno if most people can accept the change now and accept a 4th version, much less, a 6th version for sf2(7th if you count hyper as an upgrade). its no longer a 6 month or 12 month upgrade like it was in the 90's. we are talking 8-10 years now for the next revision. its a tough one

Ppl even couldnt adapt or accept previous SF3 8Urien unblockables removed)and SFA3 crouch cancels removed)upgrades, then I find it harder to accept ST HD as the standard of ST.

BTW and Off topic: Now that Dreamcast is emulated, anyone cares to put a pic of a comparative of ST in DC vs ARC to see what is all that of sprite differences or hit boxes differences? I would do it but my pc sucks... :sad:

[Cardinal_Sin]

Ppl even couldnt adapt or accept previous SF3 8Urien unblockables removed)and SFA3 crouch cancels removed)upgrades, then I find it harder to accept ST HD as the standard of ST.

BTW and Off topic: Now that Dreamcast is emulated, anyone cares to put a pic of a comparative of ST in DC vs ARC to see what is all that of sprite differences or hit boxes differences? I would do it but my pc sucks... :sad:

The thing is, you could argue that things like unblockables and crouch cancels were surreptitiously removed from the home ports, rather than a more explicit attempt to make widespread changes and show that they were for the better. It's not clear what the intentions of the home ports were in some cases (to rebalance things? to preserve arcade perfect emulation? some combination of the two?), especially since it's not *necessarily* true that people asked for the change or removal of said features. Because of this, people would be pleasantly (or rather, unpleasantly) surprised when the mechanics changed.

But since it's clear from the very start that a remix mode will address issues that players have griped about in ST in an explicit manner, players will know it is a different beast altogether intended to rebalance the characters and mechanics of the game and may be more accepting of it as a new standard. You can look at it as an upgrade not unlike the change from CE to HF; most people wouldn't argue that HF is some unofficial bastard child of CE that is a poor derivative of the original.

[hubcapsignstop]

i noticed lag in CCC2 when i was playing in casuals at evo2k7 east
never really noticed it before then
i turned to my friend and was whispering about imput lag i could have sworn i was experiencing, but i thought maybe i was just being a bitch since no one else seemed to notice
shit kept happening though
i thought it couldnt be my stick
my scrubby ass knew something wwas up

lag is a bitch
especially in ST

[scum gale 88]

I'm a hardcore marvel player and I can tell you DC's don't last long. Our local crew has busted up 3 dc's in 2 years just from playing marvel. Most of the time, the power supply goes bad. Then the constant unplugging of the ports can cause the ports to blow out. You also have the blue screen crap when 2 sticks of different voltages get togehter. Apparently, the DC doesn't like fluctating voltages coming out of its ports.


when stuff like that happens cant you just find the right person to repair it or even repair it yourself if youre brave enough. Ive had my dc since 99 and it works as good as the day I got it :lovin:

[KrsJin]

Thing is though, did it really alter EVO at all? Or any other tournament? Seems most players placed where expected. What I'm getting at is, is it really effecting the player's gameplay or is it just an annoyance?

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Thing is though, did it really alter EVO at all? Or any other tournament? Seems most players placed where expected. What I'm getting at is, is it really effecting the player's gameplay or is it just an annoyance?

Didn't Tokido use Vega on the Gief's stage (fastest in the game) repeatedly? Not saying he wouldn't have won, but I put money on it that that sure as hell wasn't working against him.

[ShinAkuma204]

DC version is the way to go.

[UltraDavid]

Until STHD comes out, I'm for using the ST characters in AE.

Also, I'm for having AE as a game with the WW and CE characters banned. I've never understood why everyone insists on allowing all the versions in that game.

[goodm0urning]

Until STHD comes out, I'm for using the ST characters in AE.

Also, I'm for having AE as a game with the WW and CE characters banned. I've never understood why everyone insists on allowing all the versions in that game.But that would be changing the default options! And as we all know, changing default options to make something more competitively playable means it doesn't even count as a fighting game.


God, that was unnecessarily petty. You have my sincerest apologies.




That, and I think both of those ideas are good, so I'll agree with you.

[Half-Ro]

But that would be changing the default options! And as we all know, changing default options to make something more competitively playable means it doesn't even count as a fighting game.


God, that was unnecessarily petty. You have my sincerest apologies.




That, and I think both of those ideas are good, so I'll agree with you.


smash argument +1??


lol

[laugh]

I noticed it right off the bat during the first week of ccc2's release and even posted about it in THE CCC2 thread that was around at the time. I guess nobody took it seriously at the time. CCC2 has to go. It was just horrible playing tournament matches on it, and there are more reasons than just the input lag that makes it bad but input lag is the primary issue.

I'm completely fine with the DC version and infact would prefer it over any of the other console versions out there. PS1 version is alright also, but it's got shit loading times and people hardly have access to the game for practice etc. The only real problem I notice with DC is the longer time it takes to go from "Round 1. FIGHT" to when I can actually move, compared to the arcade version. I'd take adjusting to a later round start than input lag anyday.

I think we should see how ST:HD turns out to be. Give it a month for people to try it out and then decide if ST:HD is good enough for a tournament with no serious issues.

[complexz]

I wouldn't worry too much about ST HD, I mean CCC2 wasn't even a port it was straight emulation on the weakest console of this generation.

even if it was straight emulation again on 360 and ps3 I'm sure both consoles could handle it easily.

also I quite like the idea of AE with WW and CE banned, But only because I love hyper fighting characters

[SaBrE]

I wouldn't worry too much about ST HD, I mean CCC2 wasn't even a port it was straight emulation on the weakest console of this generation.

even if it was straight emulation again on 360 and ps3 I'm sure both consoles could handle it easily.



lol ps2 and xbox are far more than capable of emulating technology back from 1993. it has nothing to do with the power of the console. its how well the emulation engine was built. 360 and ps3 st can still fail on the exact same faults as ccc2 just as easily if the project isnt taken care of, regardless of the console

[Mizuki]

When I first played CCC2 @ Min's room at Evo World for some reason it didn't "feel" right but I kept on getting the lame stages, so that could be it. I just remember when I wanted to dp with O.Ken at times it seemed like it wouldn't come out when I wanted it to come out, or I was just too tired to notice. But we'll just have to see when ST:HD comes out to determine really.

[Slide]

Where there any big notable problems with the XBLA HF?

[AMinorThreat]

Get David Sirlin in here!!!

[caliagent#3]

Where there any big notable problems with the XBLA HF?

It's definitely not arcade HF. Game feels different, and the speed is off

[topknot]

probally nothing was done about it because the pros knew the whole time and thought they finally found a way to beat the japanese only to have it back fire when they used vega !

[ShinAkuma204]

lol ps2 and xbox are far more than capable of emulating technology back from 1993. it has nothing to do with the power of the console. its how well the emulation engine was built. 360 and ps3 st can still fail on the exact same faults as ccc2 just as easily if the project isnt taken care of, regardless of the console

I think the idea is if the same emulation engine is used on a more powerful console it will yield better results. In a way that is accurate, but if the engine itself is too flawed no matter the power it will never be perfect.

[polarity]

Get David Sirlin in here!!!

if you check over on his blog hes currently taking the approach of denying theres any lag at all and denigrating anyone who claims its a problem as not being as good as they think they are

[pc1x1]

Again, Ill stick to AE, for Xbox/PS2 : / then adapt accordingly, and hopefully maintain somewhat the same timing, Dreamcast is nice, and I had DC's since 98, and all 3 still run, 1 JPN 98, 2 USAs 99's

[r3ko]

I think it's intereting how the ST players are extremely picky about their game but there's not quite as much complaining about the PS2 port of 3S. Granted...there isn't any real input lag and most stuff works...but there are still things that aren't 100 percent and PS2 3S plays a bit faster than the arcade port. Which you think would cause trouble with hit confirming for Japanese players and certain unblockables still dont work at all or dont work 100 percent like they do in the arcade. The game simply mimics the way the unblockables worked in the arcade. Which I'm sure causes them to not work 100 percent exactly the way they would in the arcade.

Yet...it just seems that in general the PS2 port is accepted enough to play in tournament. I guess it's just because a lot of the crowd that plays 3S today started getting serious with the PS2 version of the game. I guess the Japanese just get adjusted to it or dont mind the speed increase.

What fail to realise is that the 3s crowd only have 3 ports to choose from and the ps2 version is the clear winner.

With ST, theres a total of 10 ports, PC, 3DO, Saturn, PSX, DC, PS2 HSF2, XBox HSF2, PS2 CCC2, and soon to be 360 STHDr and PS3 STHDr. 11 ports if you count GBA, and i bet i missed 1 or 2 aswell. But all of them make for lousy replacements for arcade ST.

And you can't really say anything like "anything other than PS2/PS3 or DC doesn't count", cause if say the Saturn Version was arcade perfect then you can bet your life thats the one people would want.

I'm all for ST:HDr taking over, i wish people would get this whole "i hope its arcade perfect" out of their heads. Its gonna be a new game, original mode(not matter how close it may seem) and rebalanced mode. Just deal with it and play it, cause unless its got some seriously weird shit that makes it not tourney worthy, then it will definitely be at Evo next year. Alot of time and effort is going into it and Capcom will want to promote it.

Furthermore people got on with it back in the day, when CE came out people didn't beg for it to be exactly like WW, when HF they didn't want it like CE, even SSF2, and ST and HSF2. ST:HDr is the next game in the series. People had no problem moving on back in the day so why now. I'm really looking forward to the new ST:HDr and honestly i hope it is different. It be great finding new tactics, discussing new tier lists and most of all playing the new players it will no doubt bring with it.

Now what happens if ST:HDr is unplayable, it could be unplayable for tons of reasons, like input lag, brokeness, looks so weird you can't play it, woteva. It doesn't matter what, if its unplayable its unplayable.

My suggestion of the best alternative for ST would be using HSF2 Capkore version. O.Sagat and Vega are both fixed. As long as only ST and O.ST (not ssf2) are allowed the only problem there is, is that the ST characters can't tech O.ST characters throws, and to me this problem is minor compared to what the other ports do to the game.

If some of you really want to be controversial though, ask for HSF2 (original, not capkore) cause that is arcade perfect port of hsf2 arcade, so you can avoid the whole problem of arcade perfection altogether. And lets face it, while CE Bison is annoying hes not the defining character of the game. How many CE Bisons actually placed in top 8 at Evo2006? I bet its no more than all the Sagat and Vegas that normally populate top spots in ST at past Evos.

And thats that!

[Vintage]

jugoso: uh we used AE at evo 2k6. it was a massive ce bison/ce guile fest. horrible competitive game, but its fun casual

That's why we might want to try what I suggested to you at Vegas...AE w/mode stipulations. Either, HF or SSF2 only. You know you can't want to use your SSF2 Djay :P

But if people really insist on having ST, then just use the Kapcore version of AE with mode stipulations.

*assuming ST:HD isn't chosen*

[r3ko]

If your going down that road Vintage, just have AE, but with WW, CE and HF only. Actually makes for an interesting game, since no one can cry about weakness of SSF2 and ST characters, and all characters have a viable competitive version aswell.

Ryu: CE/HF
Ken: CE/HF
Honda: HF
Chun: HF/WW (WW can be deadly in certian matchups, cause of no hitboxes on limbs)
Blanka: HF/WW (hes got some bullshit, like unblockables + no hit boxes on couple moves)
Gief: HF
Guile: CE/WW
Dhalsim: WW/CE
Balrog: HF
Vega: CE (gets HF rolls in AE :P )
Sagat: CE ( retains his unblockables i think, i know i def got hit by one in the arcade alittle while back)
Bison: CE

Looking at that list its pretty clear to see that most characters have a very good fighting chance, and dare i say balanced?

[polarity]

I can understand only playing with SSF2 and ST, but what's the point in only using WW, CE and HF? It's not like any of the SSF2/ST characters are broken or anything.

[r3ko]

Its just CPS1 then, and people who wanna bitch about how AE is not ST need not apply.

[goodm0urning]

I can understand only playing with SSF2 and ST, but what's the point in only using WW, CE and HF? It's not like any of the SSF2/ST characters are broken or anything.Well, I can understand the logic of treating SSF2/SSF2T and WW/CE/HF as two separate games, since, in a sense, they are. But in the end, I agree with you: if you're going to do version of the game featuring WW/CE/HF, you might as well just make all of AE available. There's no practical reason not to.

This would, of course, be treated separately from AE-as-SSF2T during competitive play... but that doesn't really need to be explained to anybody except for the kids in the cheap seats.

[r3ko]

So its ok to play HSF2 with just SSF2 and ST characters but not just WW, CE and HF, lol, ok...

[Corner-Trap]

I'm honestly against using AE in tourneys. Just think about the match-ups. In ST you have to learn 16 different match-ups for all the characters, and another 16 match-ups for all the old versions of the characters. So in ST alone you have to learn 32 possible match-ups. But in AE you'll also have to learn the match-ups against the WW, CE, and HF characters. I won't even bother counting up how many match-ups that could possibly be.

[Dark Gaiden]

Haha, r3Ko is on a roll..best posts by far. An all CPS-1 tourney would be awesome. Heck, WW-SSF2 is just as fine. Can anyone outside of Watson or a few others (aka those that actually played the game) really state that SSF2 mode on AE is *broken*?

It just seems that no one is receptive to the possibility of playing the other, and in many cases, better versions of SF2.

[goodm0urning]

I'm honestly against using AE in tourneys. Just think about the match-ups. In ST you have to learn 16 different match-ups for all the characters, and another 16 match-ups for all the old versions of the characters. So in ST alone you have to learn 32 possible match-ups. But in AE you'll also have to learn the match-ups against the WW, CE, and HF characters. I won't even bother counting up how many match-ups that could possibly be.And a great many of them would be completely irrelevant once you factor in that the game would be heavily skewed towards the earlier versions of the characters anyway. Hence the reason why it wouldn't make much of a difference if SSF2/SSF2T are included with WW/CE/HF or not. And if it doesn't make a difference, then why not?

Hell, why don't people complain about the insane number of possible match-ups in MvC2?

[r3ko]

SSF2 is no more broken than any other SF2 really. Nevertheless though SSF2 just feels so unfinished when compared to ST, probably cause it is. However it does make a nice change once in a while.

And a great many of them would be completely irrelevant once you factor in that the game would be heavily skewed towards the earlier versions of the characters anyway. Hence the reason why it wouldn't make much of a difference if SSF2/SSF2T are included with WW/CE/HF or not. And if it doesn't make a difference, then why not?


They do make a difference, not so much SSF2, but ST characters definitely do.

Balrog, Dhalsim, Vega, Honda, Chun are all best in ST mode in HSF2

Ryu, Gief, Blanka are all arguably best, and definitely competitive in their ST modes in HSF2

The only characters in ST that were in CPS1 that are definitely not their best in ST mode are Ken, Guile, Sagat and Bison, but they are all still competitive. Thinking about all ST characters are competitive enough not to be ruled out, its one of the great beauties of the game.

ST characters are very viable in HSF2, just look at all HSF2 tournament results, ST characters always make top spots. Infact you only ever see a handful of CPS1 characters even make top spots and we all know what characters they are.

So in limiting HSF2 to say only CPS1 or CPS1+ssf2 i think we would see alot more character variation, which is what the game originally intended, not ST+ a couple of CE characters.

[Corner-Trap]

And a great many of them would be completely irrelevant once you factor in that the game would be heavily skewed towards the earlier versions of the characters anyway. Hence the reason why it wouldn't make much of a difference if SSF2/SSF2T are included with WW/CE/HF or not. And if it doesn't make a difference, then why not?

Hell, why don't people complain about the insane number of possible match-ups in MvC2?

MvC2: Why people don't complain about the amount of possible match-ups

The god and top tier characters can all completely destroy the mid to bottom tier characters simply by using their main game plan. There isn't any need to learn the small bits of information for every match-up. Mag can rush that ass down, cable can ahvb off of anything, storm can run away and chip forever, and sent can stomp your ass out. What can any mid to bottom tier character do against that? So learning match-ups aside from characters within the god/top tier for the most part is pointless. Which means you only have to learn how to fight against like 11 characters.

ST: Why people would complain about the amount of possible match-ups

Match-ups mean everything in ST. Some characters may be bottom tier but can still do extremely well against a few select characters, so it's important to learn your match-ups even against garbage tier characters. There are 64 characters in AE(I actually counted) meaning you'll have to learn 64 different match-ups for whatever character you play. That right there is just an insane amount of memorization.

[DS]

There are 64 characters in AE(I actually counted) meaning you'll have to learn 64 different match-ups for whatever character you play. That right there is just an insane amount of memorization.

For all of those 64 matchups you're learning, I'm picking CE Bison. What then? Hence, why AE is such a bad game(I know you hate it as well, but I'm just pointing that out).

[r3ko]

I agree Corner-Trap, but theres more than 64 characters.

8 WW
12 CE
12 HF
16 SSF2
17 ST characters

Which is a total of 65 characters, but theres more

16 O.ST (Granted most of these are same as their SSF2 versions, but some are different)
16 ST whilst holding Start button (granted some are the same as their ST version, but some change, like storable specials and supers)

Too tired to remember how many of these are actually different, but i'm guessing theres well over 70 different characters in total, you may think this may not change matchups, but even simple thing like Honda being able/not being able to store his oochio can actually change things quite abit.

However for the most part base strategies against each character will work no matter what version they are, you just have tweak them depending on the version. Some matches do change big time between modes for each character however, but most stay relatively the same.

[shoultzula]

MvC2: Why people don't complain about the amount of possible match-ups

learning match-ups aside from characters within the god/top tier for the most part is pointless. Which means you only have to learn how to fight against like 11 characters.



morrigan\tron is more broken that magneto rush down wise. Wiff cancels have to got to be the best thing ever created for rush down.

anakaris is extremely under rated and will wreck your shop. Infinite, EXTREME priority, dumb mixups, ground overheads, the list goes on with this guy.

marrow is a mini storm w\o an overhead but paired properly, she can wreck shop no problem. Easy relayer for dumb pressure, easy assists damage for 50%+, her mini hail goes through everything, dead character coming in tricks, tricky guard breaks.

ruby heart\tron is pretty broken. Instant xups into big life, unescapeable guard breaks, overhead after her super is done which creates option tree, lock down sequences, unblockable sequences when paired properly, instant super that has invincibility, c.rh+tron = 50% life on assists and qcf+pp can leave you safe, her ghost super allows for pratically all characters to have a safe entry upon DHC. yada yada... oh yea, her ghost actually cover the screen and you can't see passed there sprites, so they block the action. If you have a character that can take advantage of the dhc immediately and overhead, you can overhead through the ghost and your opponent CANNOT or barely see it coming. Its dirty.

jill\tron probably has one of the best option upon hit in mvc2. Trip+tron, if they don't roll, launch ggpo because thats hella life. If they do roll it, LK zombie, ground series+tron, launch ggpo.

I can keep going, but my point is that outside of top tiers, there are characters that no one gave a shot seriously and those characters have some shit that you wouldn't really expect from them. All you need for midtiers is tron+ a top tier character and you now have a functioning team that can compete with top tiers as long as your willing to block and play right.

[r3ko]

Hold on a sec its all good and well using other games to cite examples, but please leave all technical and game play discussion that isn't to do with SF2 out of this thread please. Last thing we need is this thread getting tainted by people talking about rubbish games. SF2 is no.1

[goodm0urning]

MvC2: Why people don't complain about the amount of possible match-ups

The god and top tier characters can all completely destroy the mid to bottom tier characters simply by using their main game plan.Which brings me to my point.

Match-ups mean everything in ST.Too true, but AE is not ST, and the balance is not nearly so fine-tuned. Not to say that many characters are downright unusable, but there is most definitely a smaller group that has an intrinsically better set of attributes, and they almost invariably tend to be from the first few versions.

Mind you, I am still classifying AE and AE-as-ST as two different games. I should think that the use of CPS-1 characters in a Super Turbo tourney would be banned, but if a separate tourney were held for AE, I would see no reason to exclude SSF2/T characters, simply by virtue that they will probably not overpower their older counterparts.

And MvC2 didn't ship with our current tier information already in place. It came with a daunting number of match-ups, and took a long period of gameplay before everything was sorted out. I don't see why the same initial obstacle, in and of itself, should turn people away from AE, in which the character types are not nearly as varied.

[r3ko]

Which brings me to my point.
Mind you, I am still classifying AE and AE-as-ST as two different games. I should think that the use of CPS-1 characters in a Super Turbo tourney would be banned, but if a separate tourney were held for AE, I would see no reason to exclude SSF2/T characters, simply by virtue that they will probably not overpower their older counterparts.



Please go back and read my previous recent posts. I made it quite clear that ST characters can and do play a prominent role in HSF2.

[goodm0urning]

Please go back and read my previous recent posts. I made it quite clear that ST characters can and do play a prominent role in HSF2.This conflicts with my point how...?

[F.Y.C.N.]

This conflicts with my point how...?

:rofl: i think at this point you should just stop talking to him

[Keits]

I love ST, and would consider it my main game. But ive always been the type of player who can quickly and easily adapt to changes. Its probably from switching games so damn often! None of the ST versions ive competed in have ever bothered me. (ccc2, dc, arcade, emulator)

Seeing us all settle on one version will be nice though. HDremix is our last hope for that,, i think.

[r3ko]

This conflicts with my point how...?

Cause you make it sound like SSF2 and ST characters are just an afterthought in HSF2, when thats just not the case.

[rsigley]

how come when i posted that it had input lag back when it was released and other things were different from the arcade i got flamed and called an idiot

:(

For all of those 64 matchups you're learning, I'm picking CE Bison. What then? Hence, why AE is such a bad game(I know you hate it as well, but I'm just pointing that out).

i don't really understand what's so good about CE Bison

his wake up torpedo is blockable

he can't do anything about being tick thrown

knock him down once and its over

[{PFH}-Lake]

What about the SF collection for ps1 is that any good?

[True Grave]

MvC2: Why people don't complain about the amount of possible match-ups

The god and top tier characters can all completely destroy the mid to bottom tier characters simply by using their main game plan.

That and too many players out there can't resist the urge to be cheap-asses, and only touch the high level characters. So you've only got Godtier Vs Godtier, Top Vs Top, and a mix of the two as the possible match-ups most of the time.

"So ya wanna be an MVC2 player kid?"

"Yes sir i sure do!"

"Then whats your first character?"

"Spider-man"

"WTF? He's not in this game!"

"Ummm Ryu?"

"Look ya little bastard, theres cable, magneto, sent, and storm. Take your damn pick already."

[Pablo_the_Mex]

And what is wrong with trying to win?

Regardless, Zass made this thread a while a go before evo.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=136546

[Bacardi]

Sabr3 pick urien and vs any shoto

cr fp, mk tackle x 2, mp headbutt

on ps2 that shit is mad inconsistent to hit, on arcade i can do it all day

[DS]

i don't really understand what's so good about CE Bison

his wake up torpedo is blockable

he can't do anything about being tick thrown

knock him down once and its over

He can lock you down, though. And the hitbox on Psycho Crusher is just ridiculous and he can tick throw off that. That, and if you even let go of block you're gonna eat c.strong, s.forward, scissors into dizzy. It's free damage and it's an excellent block string.

Yeah, you can knock him down, but it's not as easy.

Wah wah wah

You don't even go to tournies. Stop crying.

[True Grave]

And what is wrong with trying to win?

Regardless, Zass made this thread a while a go before evo.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=136546

First off the impressive character selection, which is SUPPOSED to be a big feature of MVC2 is GONE. If all one cares about is sheer win count, by any means necesary regardless of the sleaze tactics they must resort too, then you only have 4 characters to choose from and nothing more.

Secondly, it gets stagnant as all hell seeing only the same damn 4 characters get used for the billionth time in mirror-like fashion. I realize Godtier users would like to think the stuff they do is still somehow "fresh" and "interesting", but that cookie-cutter shit is older than your grandma by now. Its NOT cool to watch anymore.

Also i used to only play top tiers and it got pretty boring to the point where i was nearly burnt out on MVC2. Taking a chance to learn and play the other lower-tiers is what revitalized my interest in the game and in my opinion, the FUTURE of MVC2 is in low-tiers. Its only a matter of time before the rest of the fighting community is sick of this constant high-tier play as well, and look to lower-tiers for a different gaming experience and NEW layer of gameplay. Plus MVC2's great char selection would FINALLY be utilized as it would meant to all this time!!

[DS]

I'm crying, but no one is paying me no mind :sad:

It says Super Turbo, not MvC2. Take the crying elsewhere.

[True Grave]

It says Super Turbo, not MvC2. Take the crying elsewhere.

MVC2 still got brought up regardless, and so i was commenting on that. Deal with it :wgrin:

Also please quit your complaining w/occasional fishing for attention, it amuses no one of reasonable intellect.

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Epic lulz!!!

Get that out of here. Guess who I play on point in mvc2... Colossus! So seriously, just stop.

[True Grave]

Get that out of here. Guess who I play on point in mvc2... Colossus! So seriously, just stop.

Good for you then for not taking the high-tier route. From my experience one only gets better from playing lower-tiers anyway, because they require so much more effort/creativity/planning/strategy to win with.

Rather than God-tier characters just re-doing the same stale routine endlessly.

[red*star]

Good for you then for not taking the high-tier route. From my experience one only gets better from playing lower-tiers anyway, because they require so much more effort/creativity/planning/strategy to win with.

Rather than God-tier characters just re-doing the same stale routine endlessly.

:confused:


on topic: just hold that discussion until HD is released. by now everyone should now that there is no arcade perfect version...

[DS]

MVC2 still got brought up regardless, and so i was commenting on that. Deal with it :wgrin:

Yeah, no. Derailing thread ftl. An actual good discussion goes on and you just manage to go down Gay Street and Anal Ave.

Also please quit your complaining w/occasional fishing for attention, it amuses no one of reasonable intellect.

I'm sorry, I'm not the one going "WAH WAH! I DON'T PLAY TOP TIER!!! WHY MUST EVERYONE WIN AGAINST ME WITH TOP TIER!! WAH WAH!"

BTW, your fighting game knowledge is SOOOOOOOOOO far off, it's ridiculous. You act like everyone plays Marvel Top 4 in the same fashion. EVERYONE plays differently.

[polarity]

true grave is permabanned user super warrior btw so you can just ban him now

[{PFH}-Lake]

Why are people talking about mvc2 in a super turbo thread. Thats like some talking in a thread about someones sister dying, and all there talking about is how to get the best sex.

[inkblot]

Let's hope HD Remix is arcade perfect.

Zero chance of that. Just play the remix mode and don't even pretend that it's old school ST.

[goodm0urning]

Zero chance of that. Just play the remix mode and don't even pretend that it's old school ST.Unless the remix mode is shit. Then play original mode, which will not actually be like the original, and pretend that it is the remixed mode.

[Keits]

Zero chance of that. Just play the remix mode and don't even pretend that it's old school ST.

A-men. Look forward to it as a new game, and use it to finally unify and solidify the Super Turbo scene.

[True Grave]

Yeah, no. Derailing thread ftl. An actual good discussion goes on and you just manage to go down Gay Street and Anal Ave.

Wrong-O scythey! The very first off-topic comments about MVC2 were made by goodm0urning, which then results in replys by not only myself but others too. If anyone could be accused of thread derailment, its goodm0urning.

So unless you are pretending to be stupid, get your facts straight you damned idiot. Also by your obvious persistence in trying to start an argument war with me here, you are the one at the moment attempting to derail this thread.

Since i know your incapable of shutting up, for the topic's sake, i guess i'll have to be the one to stop replying. Beginning now.

I'm sorry, I'm not the one going "WAH WAH! I DON'T PLAY TOP TIER!!! WHY MUST EVERYONE WIN AGAINST ME WITH TOP TIER!! WAH WAH!"

BTW, your fighting game knowledge is SOOOOOOOOOO far off, it's ridiculous. You act like everyone plays Marvel Top 4 in the same fashion. EVERYONE plays differently.

Once again your incessant complaining continues, not unlike that time last week when you were crying to me about you being alone on a friday night. Tsk... :looney:

[Murt!]

Zero chance of that. Just play the remix mode and don't even pretend that it's old school ST.

Personally, I don't give 2 shits if it's not arcade perfect. I just said that so that the ST players who turn their noses up at everything (because there are some who do, I'm not saying all of them do because most don't) could have something to play that they wouldn't complain about.

To whoever's doing it, please stop editing my posts without a good reason to.

[goodm0urning]

Wrong-O scythey! The very first off-topic comments about MVC2 were made by goodm0urning, which then results in replys by not only myself but others too. If anyone could be accused of thread derailment, its goodm0urning.A correction: yes, I made the first comment about MvC2. However, it was not off-topic. I was using MvC2 to illustrate a point I was making about Super Turbo/AE.

The first person to make a post about MvC2 that didn't pertain in any way to ST, if I remember right, was Shoultzula. However, you provided plenty of fuel for the fire yourself. Thanks for pointing the finger at me, though.

[DS]

Thanks for pointing the finger at me, though.

Don't worry, that's the only finger pointing he's capable since his cock can't read women on his radar.

It's always awesome to watch SuperWarrior cry about tiers. The most awesome theory fighters on the net are the ones that don't show up to tournies.

[Corner-Trap]

For all of those 64 matchups you're learning, I'm picking CE Bison. What then? Hence, why AE is such a bad game(I know you hate it as well, but I'm just pointing that out).

I pick ST Honda "whachagonnadonow?"

Helps further my point.

Thanks for help furthering my point.

Dropping a Marvel knowledge bomb.

:wasted:

Makes some comparisons between AE and ST.

I'm sorry I just refer to SF2 in general as ST. So if I say ST just know that most of the time I'm just talking about SF2 in general.

"So ya wanna be an MVC2 player kid?"

"Yes sir i sure do!"

"Then whats your first character?"

"Spider-man"

"WTF? He's not in this game!"

"Ummm Ryu?"

"Look ya little bastard, theres cable, magneto, sent, and storm. Take your damn pick already."

Massive Lulz

[DS]

I pick ST Honda "whachagonnadoknow?"


Psycho Crusher you all day.

[goodm0urning]

I'm sorry I just refer to SF2 in general as ST. So if I say ST just know that most of the time I'm just talking about SF2 in general.Duly noted. Doesn't make much sense, but duly noted.

[Corner-Trap]

Psycho Crusher you all day.

oochio rape

Duly noted. Doesn't make much sense, but duly noted.

Yeah, I know I'm confusing.

[fishjie]

Don't worry, that's the only finger pointing he's capable since his cock can't read women on his radar.

It's always awesome to watch SuperWarrior cry about tiers. The most awesome theory fighters on the net are the ones that don't show up to tournies.

wait... wait...

true grave is super warrior?

i was wondering where that guy went.

[UltraDavid]

HF Zangief > CE Bison

[Corner-Trap]

ST Dee Jay > Everyone

[Mizuki]

Actually you know that I think of it, ST:HD should be treated like another revision I mean they added 2 letters and a word, which constitutes itself of being a new version. Although I woulda liked an extra ' or two somewhere in the title.

[polarity]

i think you judge whether something is a revision or not based on the changes made to the game not what words are in the title

[{PFH}-Lake]

ST Dee Jay > Everyone only in japan though :(

[goodm0urning]

Actually you know that I think of it, ST:HD should be treated like another revision I mean they added 2 letters and a word, which constitutes itself of being a new version. Although I woulda liked an extra ' or two somewhere in the title.Needs more words. Like "Hyper Super Street Fighter II Turbo: The Maximum Grandmaster Challenge Fighting Championship Edition Number One... Anniversary Edition. Part II. 2007.

[polarity]

i think you judge whether something is a revision or not based on the changes made to the game not what words are in the title

hey mizuki sorry im a retard

[Corner-Trap]

only in japan though :(

afrolegends says otherwise