Creating and Selling a Fighting Game... [Archive]

Optimus Prime

09-20-2007, 01:18 PM

I'm assuming you're creating the game engine yourself, right? 'Cause using somebody else's engine without their permission can/may lead to some possible legal troubles, especially if your intent is to make some money off of it. If the engine is all yours, then there's no problem selling it at all. (But there are some game engines out there that you can license & thus be able to legally sell games based on those engines.)

You could use sprites from existing video games (assuming your game is 2-D) to test your game out with (in the meantime). This way, you don't have to wait for art from sprite editors/makers to test out your game. Once you're ready to start distributing your game, as a demo or as a retail version, just swap out the copyrighted material with your original material. After all, game devs (the coders) aren't always gonna be the best artists, and they're probably gonna be too concerned with fine-tuning the engine itself rather than making sure each sprite looks spectacular, so knowing some people good at art and such things will definitely help you out. If you aren't working with any sprite editors right now, just make up some crappy temporary sprites to work with at the moment, then, later on when you do find a good artist to make your sprites, replace your temp. sprites with his/hers and you're good to go. :tup:

Hatred Edge

09-20-2007, 01:52 PM

I plan to make my own fighting game myself but alas I'm alone with that project. Nor do I have the necessary skills and programs for game development. It's a 2D fighter but I'm the only one working on it so I have no VAs or artists and I'm going to use OSTs from other games like DMC3. I might setup a mugen for practice though. Anybody else finding it to be a pain in the ass making up the moveslists for ALL the characters? I only did about 13-15 and I'm tired as hell.

Keits

09-20-2007, 02:27 PM

j1n and i are talking about trying one.

SweetJohnnyV

09-20-2007, 03:14 PM

I've started working on one. With any luck, some day far in the future you guys can bitch about how broken it is on here :wgrin:

Corner-Trap

09-20-2007, 04:27 PM

I'm going to the Arts Institute of Georgia after I get out of high school, and I plan on majoring in game design. If I can ever obtain the resources to make a fighting game then I'll definitely go for it. Who knows, I might just design some fighting games as college projects.

DarkNecrid

09-20-2007, 04:53 PM

do not major in game design, you get stuck in one industry (game design), major in computer science. The game industry is too "closed-in" and expensive atm to just major in game design and get a job instantly.

quick fact: less than 1% of anyone in the industry atm majored in game design

Sasmasta

09-20-2007, 04:59 PM

^Oh! Now you tell me!

[calls ITT to change class]

Just Saul

09-20-2007, 05:04 PM

I go to ITT Tech and I'm really excited with what we're developing right now. The one I'm most excited about is untitled fighter, with cats. We're thinking about calling it 'Cat Fighter'. In talks with THQ.

Corner-Trap

09-20-2007, 05:36 PM

Zinac

09-20-2007, 05:36 PM

j1n and i are talking about trying one.

If j1n is involved, that probally means lots of alcohol. Is j1n going to be in this game, with his drunken trash talk of fury?

Also, there are already several threads dedicated to this topic. Atleast a few people on SRK are working on skullgirls, but other than that I haven't seen any projects that are actually being developed.

Pimp Willy

09-20-2007, 06:34 PM

I've been working a bit on the side with a 2d fighter project. Until the engine is in place, you wont attract any artists.

Use Pivot Stickfigure as a placeholder for the sprites, and then have the artists use that as a reference model later. Seems like the best idea.

There was a project that started on here where people were making a fighter, but it fell apart fast. Project Shobu I believe it was called.

Henaki

09-20-2007, 06:58 PM

If j1n is involved, that probally means lots of alcohol. Is j1n going to be in this game, with his drunken trash talk of fury?

Also, there are already several threads dedicated to this topic. Atleast a few people on SRK are working on skullgirls, but other than that I haven't seen any projects that are actually being developed.

cuuuuuuurse you alex :raises fist:

yeah the only thing actively being worked on is skullgirls and uh......... we're waiting for art :X there's some good people on the team (all four of us after the artist totally kick ass)

Hatred Edge

09-20-2007, 08:30 PM

What programs should I buy/study before I start to work on my own game?

TornadoFlame

09-20-2007, 08:36 PM

Yeah, someone please add a list of programs/kits etc. so that we can get started seriously. I've been working on a couple of things and using Mugen to practice up on skills.

Henaki

09-20-2007, 10:42 PM

What programs should I buy/study before I start to work on my own game?

how to program using C++ and DirectX

pc1x1

09-21-2007, 02:27 AM

GosBroDansFan

09-21-2007, 06:01 AM

Ok, I see mixed results here, If you guys are looking for artists, I can prob help, I can brush up again and churn out pixel art and normal art. I think the biggest problem is organization.

I propose we all get together and pool resources. Who are coders here? Who are artists? And lets combine ;).

ps. Anyone works in marketing etc, ;).

It seems like it would make more sense to revive one of the existing threads that did just this sort of thing. But I haven't looked through one in a long time so I don't know if they are too buried.

I think a problem with a community based project is a lot of times if it's just being done for fun on the side it doesn't have strong leadership and people can get their feelings hurt if there work isn't used. There should be an individual or a small group that is maintaining the vision and making sure the stuff that ends up in the game is the stuff they want in the game. And it should be made clear to anyone working on the project that, while the leadership will take suggestions, in the end it's their decision.

That means fleshing out a lot of the details of the game in advance. That way anybody that is interested in helping can look through what the game will end up being and decide if they want to spend their time on that type of game or if they even have the skills necessary to do the kind of work involved.

the_dannobot

09-21-2007, 07:20 AM

The biggest problem with community based games is that people get all excited for a hot minute and sign up, and then disappear when they realize how much freaking work there is. You're right though too, lack of organization or planning will kill a project.

Skullgirls isn't the only 2d fighter being worked on, I'm doing another one too. still has a lot of work to go.

WraithGadra

09-21-2007, 07:27 AM

At my school, we're trying to make a 2-D fighting game, it's just that most of the people in the Player's Club just want to play games rather than make them. But we do have some good people working, it's just slow going.

pc1x1

09-21-2007, 09:43 AM

Well if someone is willing to work with me, just pm me, and we can get a little shindig started. Its simple, theres shouldn't be any expectations on quality, work will be hard, and for every gameplay hour, we have at least 9 times more work per hour. Aka 1 hour game = at least 9 hours of work, if not more. And thats after we have the sprites, and tiles ready, and game resources done.

We each need to work on what are strengths are. I work alot on getting projects off the ground, so as far as management, I believe I could get something organized, and my policy with people signing up and leaving, I would replace them as soon as possible, though I obviously would prefer to keep everyone together from beginning to end.

Anyhow if your interested in perhaps getting a new project off the ground, but seeing it through, let me know. We would first have to get an Alpha, and a demo of game play, one that would most likely use Mugen, unless we have a very talented coder. If you have an existing engine, or materials those are fine too, we can analyze and find out what can be used. No reason to reinvent the wheel.

Anyhow my goal to start out: A working playable engine that rivals Street Fighter 2 World Warrior in move set, yup the original basic one ;). With 2 complete characters and 2 stages. Thats all. Lets make realistic goals, then start adding absurdly long titles to the project ;).

I need Artists, and coders, and an English Major, (NO SNK quality translations heheh), and a Japanese speaker/writer, sound designer, and composer.

For now I will pen storyline, gameplay mechanics, and general direction, aka I will be the game designer, I will then present a fully made presentation on what I want to achieve as well as art style, and the team will input and we will add whats feasible to the project. Once this project is complete, and we actually have a team working smoothly, the team itself will have more control on the property, but in the begining, I think that needs to be in lock down, as most fighters fail, because of differences in design, and lack of will.

If you read all that and still willing, hit me up, with sample of your work, I will be picky ;).

Also if theres a more appropriate thread, let me know ;). Thanks! ttyl, pm me guys or hit me up on aim.

INCIDENT

09-21-2007, 10:47 PM

I've thought of making a fighting game now and then, even though I'm studying is journalism. I did some really crappy concept art of the characters I want and got some move ideas and such (I still have them if anyone wants to see or even redo them). I kinda doubt it'll get past that, but who knows.

Zelikazi

09-24-2007, 02:26 AM

Art problems?

Get a blue wall, a digital camera, and some people in bizarre costume, and go for MK graphics.

polarity

09-24-2007, 03:03 AM

trying to organize an amateur game effort if you dont have an actual tangible skill (and no, "design" and "organizing people" don't count) is pretty much doomed from the start in my experience.

YuuFone

09-24-2007, 06:02 AM

Just curious if anybody here has any plans in the future of Creating a Fighting Game with a group/developer and selling it to people. Basically what I mean is do you plan on becoming a developer and distributing fighting games?

i would like to make my own fighting but i don't know how

but i have a lotta good ideas~ :rofl:

Shotokan Symphony

09-24-2007, 07:16 AM

Ok. Um. I'm kinda interested in doing sprite stuff, but I've never really done it before. I've made a few edits here and there, but nothing in depth. Any place I can begin testing stuff out?
Also, I agree about organisation being integral to the game making process, but I feel that realistic goals are more important. Instead of like, multiple sprite artists handling multiple characters, small groups of sprite artists focus squarely on a single character per group, and that the minimum goal should be 10 frames of animation per month. Does this sound ok?

GStick

09-24-2007, 01:39 PM

Me and Titusthree have been working on a fighting game for quite some time now called Showdown Academy. Some of you might have seen a post with some concept art here

http://sdacademy.blogspot.com

Its a lot of work, but we're sticking to it.

Henaki

09-24-2007, 01:56 PM

GStick

09-24-2007, 02:19 PM

the sprite art is pretty good but...... everything else is kind of bad...

We're still working on it... I understand where you're coming from, its way too rough of a demo to be playable. I'm fixing up a lot in the next demo. He wants it out by December, but I want the next demo so polished I'm not sure if we'll make it on time. I've already slowed the game down to a much better speed (50 FPS). Improved the blocking and working on getting hit out of the air. Thats pretty much nonexistant in that demo...

pootnannies

10-06-2007, 09:51 PM

that's not bad GStick. i've got some shit that i'm working on but i don't know any actionscript yet.

http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=muaythaiguymw4.swf&width=480

http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=judomanpi7.swf&width=320

Dencore

01-13-2008, 01:37 PM

If you're creating a 2D Fighter, I highly recommend using Flash to draw or at least animate then the traditional hand drawn.

It's what's standard with small (and soon all) 2D gaming devs.

For example Bit-Blot (a team of 2 developers) created a 2D Masterpiece called Aquaria (http://www.bit-blot.com/aquaria/) with over 400+ realized sprites (not counting the animation put into them) and maps bigger then Super Metroid and any Castlevania. All this as well as music and everything else that goes into a game in 2 years. Compare this to other hand-drawn developers who shun to create new sprites and even backgrounds for 2D games a fraction of this ones size with half as much detail.

So if you're looking towards the realms of sprites that is your best bet.

With XBLA/PSN, Indie PC Devs. further establishing themselves, Handheld Software sales being record highs, as well as the Wii's cheap development costs it seems that indie and small devs have almost as much of a chance at being viable as they were 15 years ago.

I personally have been thinking of creating my own game, but not really fighting. It would be more like a 2D Devil May Cry but more combo based and more arcadish.

Me and Titusthree have been working on a fighting game for quite some time now called Showdown Academy. Some of you might have seen a post with some concept art here

http://sdacademy.blogspot.com

Its a lot of work, but we're sticking to it.

Looks very good. I'll be sure to buy it when you get done with it. :)

Rioting Soul

01-16-2008, 11:03 PM

Have any of you tried seriously using any of the fighter maker titles(specifically the 2D version)? It seems like people just scoff at it without really considering it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_Maker#2D_Fighter_Maker

This doujin fighter named Axel City was made using Fighter Maker 2D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o9wW1hz3gY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6wek3JziD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLlkhmrzuCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3dJS-mcYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7YBUHYeP0k

pootnannies

01-17-2008, 06:10 AM

Gwyrgyn Blood

01-17-2008, 08:55 AM

I've been building mine in XNA. It's surprisingly easy to use (and hopefully the code may one day be portable to Mono.XNA without much work).

Don't want to spoil your fun, but XNA is pretty awful. It's pretty bloated and lacks power, and no serious developer for 360 works with it. If you want to get a job some day making games then you really need to learn the real SDK, or else just learn C++ and you can go from there.

Now if you are just messing with it for fun, don't worry about it. :)

If you're creating a 2D Fighter, I highly recommend using Flash to draw or at least animate then the traditional hand drawn.

It's what's standard with small (and soon all) 2D gaming devs.

For example Bit-Blot (a team of 2 developers) created a 2D Masterpiece called Aquaria (http://www.bit-blot.com/aquaria/) with over 400+ realized sprites (not counting the animation put into them) and maps bigger then Super Metroid and any Castlevania. All this as well as music and everything else that goes into a game in 2 years. Compare this to other hand-drawn developers who shun to create new sprites and even backgrounds for 2D games a fraction of this ones size with half as much detail.

So if you're looking towards the realms of sprites that is your best bet.

Erm... for everything Aquaria did right, the animation was god awful and the worst part about the game. Flash animation can be done decently, but definitely not in the style that Aquaria used it. Flash animation is also never, ever, a substitute for real animation.

how to program using C++ and DirectX

Bingo. If you have any interest in game development at all, don't mess with bullshit like Game Maker programs or whatever. Learn C++, learn DirectX, and make a basic game with them.

Fact of the matter is, people with little or no programming experience (high school or 200 level college classes are not experience) have no idea how much depth there is to it. Trying to put together something simple and functional as a game is the first step towards being able to make something decent.

The good news is that Microsoft has a free version of Visual C++ you can download here:
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vc/Default.aspx
And the DirectX SDK is also free to download:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=4B78A58A-E672-4B83-A28E-72B5E93BD60A&displaylang=en

Statistics

01-17-2008, 10:14 AM

I'm attending DeVry University right now, and despite the "gamer overhaul" on their commercials the game degree is, in essence, a computer programming degree + a few game and simulation history courses.

I do have a few ideas written down like possible characters, visual style, etc., but the fact is to sell a game like this you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO market it towards the casual gamers.

I'm talking big combos, flashy (and hopefully simple) moves, sexy women, you know the drill.

Interestingly enough, GGXX:AC was on PS2, and is now on the Wii. I went to my gamestop looking for a PS2 copy, and he said he had none used and that they wouldn't receive any more.

Wasn't it released about a year ago? I got my used copy at another store, but the fact that they've halted production on the PS2 version tells me that they're focusing on what they believe is the casual crowd, the Wii owners.

So here's the rundown:
0) makes money!! (the first thing you learn about game development)
1) plays smooth.
2) looks smooth.
3) easy moves.
4) rated T or less (I believe blood is acceptable in T, so not a big loss)
X) good balance.

Rioting Soul

01-17-2008, 02:13 PM

the announcer's voice and speech is hilarious:rofl:

interesting nonetheless.

the animation really suffers though. is there a limited amount of frames aloud per move/action on fighter maker?

I'm not sure if Fighter Maker has limited frames or if Axel City's creator was just cutting back.

GosBroDansFan

01-17-2008, 03:07 PM

Don't want to spoil your fun, but XNA is pretty awful. It's pretty bloated and lacks power, and no serious developer for 360 works with it. If you want to get a job some day making games then you really need to learn the real SDK, or else just learn C++ and you can go from there.

Now if you are just messing with it for fun, don't worry about it. :)

Yeah, like I said originally (way back when I posted that, lol) it's not something professional or something I'd even try to sell. I'm just doing it for fun to see what the result is.

I'm actually not aiming to make this for the 360. I like how simple it is to create a game in XNA for the PC

I haven't really hit any performance issues with XNA. And I definately wouldn't call it awful. It's aimed squarely at enthusiasts and it delivers a solid experience. Performance on my value PCs is quite good, even animated 3D character models with light effects and bump mapping. And I am not sure what bloat you are talking about. It requires the .net platform, that's all I can think of. My engine as it stands right now loads 25 megs worth of graphics into RAM right off the bat and RAM usage goes up about 27 megs when the program runs. And 60 fps with 2 characters, 2 other sprites (e.g. 2D projectiles) and a 3D modeled level with basic lighting only pushes the CPU to about 25% CPU usage. That's on a Pentium M 1.6ghz computer.

On the 360 it's a different story because there are a lot of precautions you have to take in XNA for the 360 to get it working well. If you just program it like a normal windows app it'll tank the 360 even before it starts doing anything interesting. But, that can mostly be avoided and high performance apps for the 360 are entirely possible with the proper care taken.

The important thing to remember for 360 development is that the mini .net framework on the 360 doesn't have the same multiple levels of garbage collection the full version has and the creation and destruction of objects kills performance very very fast. Also, you have to work pretty hard to take full advantage of the multiple hardware based processor threads that are available on the 360 (I think it has 6 hardware threads). But if you keep that stuff in mind, you can make something with surprisingly good results. But, even if you do all that, you can't sell it. The license for XNA as far as 360 games is extremely limiting. For Windows though it's open and what you make you can do with as you please.

I have actually gotten 2D fighter engines working to the point of loading 2 characters, animating them and letting them be controlled by keyboard 3 times now. The first was C with Allegro. But I quickly grew to dislike Allegro. The second was a port of that to C++ with SDL. And then finally I did it with XNA. I'm sticking with it since the performance is good even on older computers (slowest I tested on was P3 733 with 256 MB RAM), and it's just easier (edit: for a hobbyist, XNA is nowhere near a professional development app, that is definately true).

Zinac

01-17-2008, 05:01 PM

Optimus Prime

01-18-2008, 10:06 AM

For complete newbies, you don't download C++ … as some kind of SDK, etc.; it's already built into the C++ compiler you code with, whichever one you choose … examples of such are: Microsoft Visual C++ (http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/), Bloodshed Software's Dev-C++ (http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html), Borland C++ Builder (http://www.codegear.com/products/cppbuilder), Intel C++ compiler (http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/284132.htm), GCC (http://gcc.gnu.org), CodeWarrior (http://www.freescale.com/codewarrior), Digital Mars C++ (http://www.digitalmars.com), LCC-Win32 (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/), DJGPP (http://www.delorie.com/djgpp), etc. Also, Apple distributes a C++ compiler on the Developer CD that comes with every Mac; I think it's called Xcode.

Now, there are other programming things you would need in order to do graphics and other stuff. Most of them you'll have to D/L (from somewhere) and install on your computer with your chosen compiler. Here's a list of some of them:

· OpenGL -- mostly does 3-D graphics for MS Windows, Linux, or Mac OS games & apps but can do 2-D if you want it to (i.e., a 2D sprite-based video game) (Your computer should already come with an implementation of OpenGL in it. So, there is no need to download anything (like some SDK or whatever) in order to create a game using OpenGL. If you want the latest OpenGL (for coding with or for playing OpenGL-based computer games), simply update your video drivers. That's all there is to it.)
· DirectX Direct3D -- mostly does 3-D graphics for MS Windows games & apps but can do 2-D if you want it to (i.e., a 2D sprite-based video game) (See Gwyrgyn Blood's post (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4707604&postcount=42) for the 9.0 Nov-'07 SDK download link <-- the SDK is about 428+ MB, BTW.)

Addendum: Yes, I know that the latest DirectX is version 10, but if you code using any DirectX 10 SDK, your program wont run in Windows XP (or even on much earlier 32-bit Windows O.S.es, for that matter)! :sad:

· Allegro -- good for making 2-D games (Get that here (http://alleg.sourceforge.net/wip.html).)
· SDL -- also good for creating 2-D computer games (Get it from here (http://www.libsdl.org/download-1.2.php).)
*the above two can be used to create 2-D games for Microsoft WIN, Mac OS, or Linux operating systems

Note: Even though both Allegro and SDL were written for coding in the C language, you can mix C code in with your C++ code with no problem, if you were using a C++ compiler to compile with.

· OpenAL (not related to OpenGL, BTW) -- good for putting sounds in your games (WIN/Linux/Mac) (Get that from here (http://www.openal.org/downloads.html).)
· FMOD Ex -- another way of getting sounds in your WIN/Linux/Mac/console game (Get that at this place (http://www.fmod.org/index.php/download).)

the_dannobot

01-18-2008, 11:35 AM

Keep up all the good work everyone. We're working steadily on SkullGirls. Can't really show anything yet, but I can say its fully playable and has completely redrawn sprites since the original demos. Have I mentioned this already?
Cool! I wasn't sure if anyone was still working on that game, the page hasn't been updated in a while.

pootnannies

01-19-2008, 09:44 PM

Cool! I wasn't sure if anyone was still working on that game, the page hasn't been updated in a while.

yeah i've been waiting to see what's happened to this project since the last demo came out. hope to see something soon!

Zinac

01-20-2008, 01:52 AM

yeah i've been waiting to see what's happened to this project since the last demo came out. hope to see something soon!

We'll be showing something soon enough. Though we're not sure how to best present updates, whether it be in the form of blogging (ex. SFIIHD) or not.

Henaki

01-20-2008, 02:04 AM

haha id ont think skullgirls is really complete enough to be shown.

but its making clear progress, every update besides ZINAC DELETING EVERY SPECIAL MOVE has been greatly improving everything.

GStick

02-10-2008, 05:29 PM

v2.2 of the Showdown Academy demo is out. I decided to release it a bit early, so that I can get feedback on where to continue and for help with bugs, since I can't seem to solve a few at the moment (I have NO idea where they are coming from).

But the game really has improved a lot, and if its any indication, I think the game can go a long way.

Go Here (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showforum=2) for v2.2 and the basic system guide...

Still no Vista support. Help me out guys, trying to actually make a decent fighter. :wink:

Zinac

02-10-2008, 07:16 PM

Oh nice, tried out your demo. The sprites are nice.
The only weird thing I noticed was that the jump momentum was a bit awkward.

GStick

02-10-2008, 07:19 PM

Oh nice, tried out your demo. The sprites are nice.
The only weird thing I noticed was that the jump momentum was a bit awkward.

Thanks... we're in need of someone who can sprite that style though, original artist left.

Been slowly improving the jumping, it probably needs a major rewrite. A majority of that code has been around for a long time.

Dencore

02-10-2008, 08:01 PM

^^^How long have you been working on this?

For complete newbies, you don't download C++ … as some kind of SDK, etc.; it's already built into the C++ compiler you code with, whichever one you choose … examples of such are: Microsoft Visual C++ (http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/), Bloodshed Software's Dev-C++ (http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html), Borland C++ Builder (http://www.codegear.com/products/cppbuilder), Intel C++ compiler (http://www.intel.com/cd/software/products/asmo-na/eng/284132.htm), GCC (http://gcc.gnu.org), CodeWarrior (http://www.freescale.com/codewarrior), Digital Mars C++ (http://www.digitalmars.com), LCC-Win32 (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32/), DJGPP (http://www.delorie.com/djgpp), etc. Also, Apple distributes a C++ compiler on the Developer CD that comes with every Mac; I think it's called Xcode.

Now, there are other programming things you would need in order to do graphics and other stuff. Most of them you'll have to D/L (from somewhere) and install on your computer with your chosen compiler. Here's a list of some of them:

· OpenGL -- mostly does 3-D graphics for MS Windows, Linux, or Mac OS games & apps but can do 2-D if you want it to (i.e., a 2D sprite-based video game) (Your computer should already come with an implementation of OpenGL in it. So, there is no need to download anything (like some SDK or whatever) in order to create a game using OpenGL. If you want the latest OpenGL (for coding with or for playing OpenGL-based computer games), simply update your video drivers. That's all there is to it.)
· DirectX Direct3D -- mostly does 3-D graphics for MS Windows games & apps but can do 2-D if you want it to (i.e., a 2D sprite-based video game) (See Gwyrgyn Blood's post (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4707604&postcount=42) for the 9.0 Nov-'07 SDK download link <-- the SDK is about 428+ MB, BTW.)

Addendum: Yes, I know that the latest DirectX is version 10, but if you code using any DirectX 10 SDK, your program wont run in Windows XP (or even on much earlier 32-bit Windows O.S.es, for that matter)! :sad:

· Allegro -- good for making 2-D games (Get that here (http://alleg.sourceforge.net/wip.html).)
· SDL -- also good for creating 2-D computer games (Get it from here (http://www.libsdl.org/download-1.2.php).)
*the above two can be used to create 2-D games for Microsoft WIN, Mac OS, or Linux operating systems

Note: Even though both Allegro and SDL were written for coding in the C language, you can mix C code in with your C++ code with no problem, if you were using a C++ compiler to compile with.

· OpenAL (not related to OpenGL, BTW) -- good for putting sounds in your games (WIN/Linux/Mac) (Get that from here (http://www.openal.org/downloads.html).)
· FMOD Ex -- another way of getting sounds in your WIN/Linux/Mac/console game (Get that at this place (http://www.fmod.org/index.php/download).)

Thanks alot dude, maybe I can create my revolutionary beat-em-up game now.

GStick

02-10-2008, 08:12 PM

I've been working on the game since April.

Masamuna

02-11-2008, 08:41 AM

Making a fighting game is in my future, however I'm not going to worry about it right now. My main plan is that once the graphic novel I'm working on is released within the next year, I will start gaining a little revenue as well as some form of fanbase. Hopefully this will lead to the book being released internationally leading to possible endeavors in other media.

The best case scenario? I'll get a deal with a major in house developer to make a 3D fighter and possibly another genre to balance out profit. The worst case? I'll still have a purdy picture book and hopefully some loot to fund a doujin fighter or something.

Nokato

02-11-2008, 02:38 PM

I want to actually make sprites but I really don't know--so I'm going to actually check out these links to see what may happen.

woof

02-11-2008, 02:56 PM

I want to actually make sprites but I really don't know--so I'm going to actually check out these links to see what may happen.
http://www.wayofthepixel.net/pixelation/
http://www.pixeljoint.com/default.asp

GStick

04-01-2008, 08:20 PM

Something new to show, v2.3a of Showdown Academy.

v2.3a (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=28)

A much improved update over v2.2... mostly bug fixes and character tweaks, but certainly not small ones.

And remember to check out the system mechanics page, even though you guys could just look at the names of everything in the game and assume what its all going to be. :wonder:

Here (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=22)

You can finally crossup if that makes it any better, lol.

pootnannies

04-01-2008, 08:53 PM

it's a lot better than the last one but the jumps are really weird. can't wait to see the next demo

lamewadd

04-01-2008, 09:13 PM

ps. Anyone works in marketing etc, ;).

I'm a marketing major. But I'd want a degree of creative control.

And you'd best not cross me. I can be fearsome! :mad:

Naw, but seriously, I do marketing, and I just wanna make sure there's at least one fat guy in the game (not REALLY fat, but with a beer gut).

the_dannobot

04-03-2008, 08:39 AM

what the hell...

I've been workin on a new fite game for a while, got a bunch of character art done. I'm getting a lot better at the whole paperdoll thing, I think these characters look pretty good. Here's some screenies:
one (http://www.dannobot.com/gallery/mei2.png)
two (http://www.dannobot.com/gallery/girl1.jpg)
three (http://www.dannobot.com/gallery/roxy.png)

basically I had an idea for a fight game engine that I don't think anyone has done yet, and I was like "huh, guess I'll do it myself." No word yet though on whether the whole thing is going to be made of win or made of fail. I should have something playable here pretty soon, so if it's any good I might post it somewhere.

also, i'm not doing any more gimmicks like that pillow fighting crap. That was a pretty "yes homo" idea.

cheers

Windlord0

04-03-2008, 09:34 AM

You really don't have to go the programming route in order to make games. There has been a huge surge of indy game developers creating games using game maker or similar programs (sometimes flash also) who have no programming experience. It is becoming its own little market and some of the stuff is really innovative. There was a gamasutra article about these developers and when I find it I'll post it up.

The point is there is no shame in using things to bridge the gaps in your knowledge. If you want to make a game then grab the tools you need to do it. One of the big things they talked about in the article was getting something to play immediately, and seeing if the idea is fun. After that you can work on everything else, but if a new idea isn't fun then there is no reason to continue. Laying all the ground work for a game takes a lot of code. You may put in several weeks of work before you can even test anything, and more time if you have a complicated system of content control and editors to make. If the idea turns out to not be fun, then you are kinda out of luck. You can reuse the code, probably, but that time could have been better spent getting an idea that works.

It is cool to see so many people on here interested in making games. Let your passion carry you. I have some projects of my own (no traditional 2d fighters, but some different direct competition game), but it doesn't get much work done on it, since I work so much making the game I'm being paid to make. And with that it's time to finish my lunch and get my ass back to work.

danno, your sprites are looking nicer. I can't wait to see what your new gameplay comes out to be. good shit man

Las Vegas Pimp

04-06-2008, 11:44 AM

damn I don't know what skills a law enforcement officer would have in helping to make games =( not even creative thought processes

GStick

06-20-2008, 09:38 PM

Zinac

06-20-2008, 11:19 PM

Hey good job getting this far.

Seems your demo download link is broken though. You're using a "+" character in the demo file link, maybe thats causing problems.

I think I'll also post something. How about a development shot of SkullGirls?

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1966/sgsmallsmalljd1.png

Mizuki

06-21-2008, 12:59 AM

I think I'll also post something. How about a development shot of SkullGirls?

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1966/sgsmallsmalljd1.png

OMG I hate you I hate you I'm going to kick you so many time in #Arcana!!!

3SJ

06-21-2008, 01:37 AM

I am currently in the process of making a video game(low end PC). There are free engine like HGE's engine and there are programs that can make the job ALOT easier(like 3dGamedtudio).
I am pretty good at C/C++ problem is why in the hell would anyone program for free.No one does anything this long for free. Its not the coding thats the hard part its distribution,marketing,betatesting,drawing litterally thousands of frames per character(1200)and have it "look" decent with no/little bugs.

Its not a one man job nor will it be simple/fast to do. It takes a long time to make a decent game.Modern games(console budgeted) cost $6 million+ to make and take 1-2 years to make(until they are on shelves).

Go to the forums at these sites they can help you with what you want.

gamedev.org
beyond3d.org
arctechnica's website
pcvsconsole.com

But if you to do this the more easier way that you can just mod a modern fighter like CvS2 or 3S.

Wolfmame has Pro Action Replay support. So you can make convert binaries from the superh processor(C compiler on thier website and a disassembler there)--->PAR codes. The hack of the game is first expanded(like snes hacks like Super mario oddessy) and the mame rom(probably would need to hack the emulator to support the new rom and autopatching)is patched on boot with the PAR codes(new sprites code converted into binaries and then into PAR code).

Implanting code into already existing game will be easier to make than building EVERYTHING from scratch.

Also go to Onrpg.com there are alot of people with classifieds for help in MMOs,FPS, etc.

GStick

06-21-2008, 05:42 AM

Download should work now, sorry about that.

Demo v2.9 (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=46)

3SJ

06-21-2008, 10:31 AM

Yeah, like I said originally (way back when I posted that, lol) it's not something professional or something I'd even try to sell. I'm just doing it for fun to see what the result is.

I'm actually not aiming to make this for the 360. I like how simple it is to create a game in XNA for the PC

I haven't really hit any performance issues with XNA. And I definately wouldn't call it awful. It's aimed squarely at enthusiasts and it delivers a solid experience. Performance on my value PCs is quite good, even animated 3D character models with light effects and bump mapping. And I am not sure what bloat you are talking about. It requires the .net platform, that's all I can think of. My engine as it stands right now loads 25 megs worth of graphics into RAM right off the bat and RAM usage goes up about 27 megs when the program runs. And 60 fps with 2 characters, 2 other sprites (e.g. 2D projectiles) and a 3D modeled level with basic lighting only pushes the CPU to about 25% CPU usage. That's on a Pentium M 1.6ghz computer.

On the 360 it's a different story because there are a lot of precautions you have to take in XNA for the 360 to get it working well. If you just program it like a normal windows app it'll tank the 360 even before it starts doing anything interesting. But, that can mostly be avoided and high performance apps for the 360 are entirely possible with the proper care taken.

The important thing to remember for 360 development is that the mini .net framework on the 360 doesn't have the same multiple levels of garbage collection the full version has and the creation and destruction of objects kills performance very very fast. Also, you have to work pretty hard to take full advantage of the multiple hardware based processor threads that are available on the 360 (I think it has 6 hardware threads). But if you keep that stuff in mind, you can make something with surprisingly good results. But, even if you do all that, you can't sell it. The license for XNA as far as 360 games is extremely limiting. For Windows though it's open and what you make you can do with as you please.

I have actually gotten 2D fighter engines working to the point of loading 2 characters, animating them and letting them be controlled by keyboard 3 times now. The first was C with Allegro. But I quickly grew to dislike Allegro. The second was a port of that to C++ with SDL. And then finally I did it with XNA. I'm sticking with it since the performance is good even on older computers (slowest I tested on was P3 733 with 256 MB RAM), and it's just easier (edit: for a hobbyist, XNA is nowhere near a professional development app, that is definately true).

adobe flash and C.

Go on Onrpg.com and present your link to your playable demo and screen shots. you can find people that want to make the same game you want.

Cronopio

06-21-2008, 10:49 AM

I'm interested in doing a fighting game. But I'm a complete newbie at programming, so I want to learn a (relatively speaking) simple language to get started. Is Ruby any good for this kind of things? Seems easier than most programming languages.

frustratedsquirrel

06-21-2008, 06:10 PM

Ashenwraith

06-21-2008, 08:03 PM

So talking about the videogame industry: would one have an easier time finding a job in the industry if one did an arts or animation major? Because it seems that game developers are always looking for artists.

My girlfriend is doing an art major at the moment, so it'd be good to know this stuff.

Computer Science (C++ programmers) are always the highest in demand and paid the most on average (next to management and senior members).

Artists are becoming more and more in demand as games become more complex but there is a ton of competition and the bar of quality is raised year after year.

Game artists have less and less control over the game design as it becomes more complex and more artists are brought in to specialize.

Ironically you'll probably get to be more creative being a programmer than as an artist cleaning up textures, making meshes, or rigging models, etc.

At least until you work your way up to concept artist if you have the skills, but that's tough with the competition these days (especially from China and Europe).

Also, General Art Degree = almost worthless in the game industry for artists.

It will help you get your foot in the door at another position if you aren't good enough, but unless it's from a top design school and you got the skills to back it up it isn't going to do much for you.

There's a good article you can read all about that here (http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/formal_art_training.html)

....And another good one here
(http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/money_mouth.htm)

If after you read those you are still interested then get some straight stats and facts (http://www.igda.org/breakingin/path_art.htm)

nGuman

06-21-2008, 08:45 PM

I've always wanted to make a fighting game and I am pursuing a post-secondary education just for it. :P With some of these links I might become a sprite artist ;)

pootnannies

06-21-2008, 09:16 PM

damn, i forgot all about this thread. guess i should get back to try and actually make more animation for my game that will never be realized:bluu:

pootnannies

06-21-2008, 09:55 PM

Update, in case anyone is interested. Lots of small gameplay tweaks (blocking changes, new gameplay mechanics, improved jumps, whatever), some EX moves, new FMOD support, whatever else. Just want opinions on how its getting along, and tell me how the new jumping feels. I've been told by people it finally feels good.

Demo v2.9 (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=46)
System Mechanics (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=22) - new information in red, just ask and I'll go into more detail about certain stuff if anyone wants.

Also, I want some ideas on how to differentiate holds from throws in this game. I've got a few, but I wouldn't mind hearing some other ideas first... I don't want it to be exactly like Street Fighter or anything, as you can see with the Counter Hit taking away Super.

jumps are definitely better and the game seems sped up. cool sauce:cybot:

frustratedsquirrel

06-21-2008, 10:13 PM

After reading those articles, it seems to me that the best way to land a job as a game artist is just to approach potential employers with a show of genuine skill...

Looks like it's practise time. Although personally I'm not interested in going into game design, but I've always considered it as one of those "never going to happen" fantasies.

3SJ

06-21-2008, 10:41 PM

Computer Science (C++ programmers) are always the highest in demand and paid the most on average (next to management and senior members).

Artists are becoming more and more in demand as games become more complex but there is a ton of competition and the bar of quality is raised year after year.

Game artists have less and less control over the game design as it becomes more complex and more artists are brought in to specialize.

Ironically you'll probably get to be more creative being a programmer than as an artist cleaning up textures, making meshes, or rigging models, etc.

At least until you work your way up to concept artist if you have the skills, but that's tough with the competition these days (especially from China and Europe).

Also, General Art Degree = almost worthless in the game industry for artists.

It will help you get your foot in the door at another position if you aren't good enough, but unless it's from a top design school and you got the skills to back it up it isn't going to do much for you.

There's a good article you can read all about that here (http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/formal_art_training.html)

....And another good one here
(http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/money_mouth.htm)

If after you read those you are still interested then get some straight stats and facts (http://www.igda.org/breakingin/path_art.htm)

The only practical way to make video games is to.....

1)Build the game and everything in it yourself from scratch(Full time 32 hours a week) for 4-6 months
and sell the game on your website.

Or

2)go to a site like Onrpg.com and try to find like minded people that can help build the game for you after you show them a working demo and(non-top secret,unique) schematics of the game mechanics. Interview them and have them sign a NDA and other legal waivers to keep you safe from pirates.After they pass the interview you can have them sign a conditional contract saying when the game is sold on your website you will reenburse them for thier hard work(salary 1250). It also tell them the game IS NOT freeware/shareware but sold.(so they know they are going to get paid).

3)Mod an existing emulated game using a hacked emulator,PAR and patched/expanded rom image.

SweetJohnnyV

06-22-2008, 05:39 AM

The only practical way to make video games is to.....

1)Build the game and everything in it yourself from scratch(Full time 32 hours a week) for 4-6 months
and sell the game on your website.

Or

2)go to a site like Onrpg.com and try to find like minded people that can help build the game for you after you show them a working demo and(non-top secret,unique) schematics of the game mechanics. Interview them and have them sign a NDA and other legal waivers to keep you safe from pirates.After they pass the interview you can have them sign a conditional contract saying when the game is sold on your website you will reenburse them for thier hard work(salary 1250). It also tell them the game IS NOT freeware/shareware but sold.(so they know they are going to get paid).

3)Mod an existing emulated game using a hacked emulator,PAR and patched/expanded rom image.

Or...

4) Follow Ashenwraith's advice and get a job in the game industry. You won't get to make your game, but you will get to paid to make them.

Cronopio: My advice would be to use C# with the XNA stuff. Alternatively, Flash is probably also a decent option.

robotchop

06-22-2008, 08:24 AM

anyone ever use the torque engines that are on garagegames.com? They have the torgue game builder http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgb/ for 2d stuff, but I have no idea if it would be good for fighters. seems good for side scrolling games though. GosBroDansFan are you using torque x for xna?

Henaki

06-22-2008, 09:26 AM

just fucking learn c

alternatively learn to draw because artists are much higher in demand when making a fighting game

frustratedsquirrel

06-22-2008, 07:19 PM

It's funny, because most artsits don't have the natural mathematical patience to deal with C++ coding, and vice-versa. I know I certainly don't.

Ashenwraith

06-22-2008, 07:30 PM

It's funny, because most artsits don't have the natural mathematical patience to deal with C++ coding, and vice-versa. I know I certainly don't.

Most artists don't have the patience for uv mapping, rigging, editing shaders, processing textures, or painting millions of little hairs yet they still do it.

Programming in a lot of ways is easier once you get used to it.

GStick

06-22-2008, 07:33 PM

Ashenwraith

06-22-2008, 07:44 PM

Am I the only one who uses Game Maker here?

I also plan on porting the game to the DS using PALib and C. Obviously it would only be available to those with R4 type devices or an emu, but it would still be the DS nonetheless.

So is XNA really not worth it for indies who want to release on xbox?

I heard it's good, but you got to port your code to C# until they get some sort of lib or extension they are working on.

C# is kinda pointless language being an ass-backwards version of Java.

IE, the idea is that it's similar to Java, but it only works on Microsoft platforms (which is the entire reason to use Java).

But anyways, if you are starting from basically scratch and using game maker it's definitely the way to go.

I tried using game maker a few years ago just to test sprites i was working on and it was buggy and shitty (even with hardware acceleration).

The scripting language is like a house of cards -- XNA is pretty rock solid and has a lot of libs made by developers instead of dabblers.

If your goal is 360 and windows it would be a good idea.

However, if you are going for the experience of being a real developer you are better off using something like SDL and C++.

Zinac

06-22-2008, 07:48 PM

Update to the SkullGirls website
http://www.skullgirls.com/

SweetJohnnyV

06-22-2008, 08:31 PM

I heard it's good, but you got to port your code to C# until they get some sort of lib or extension they are working on.

C# is kinda pointless language being an ass-backwards version of Java.

IE, the idea is that it's similar to Java, but it only works on Microsoft platforms (which is the entire reason to use Java).

I must respectfully disagree with this. C# is a very nice language. It's not perfect(I haven't found a perfect one yet), but it's pretty good. Also, technically, it's not exclusive to Windows. I've never had the need to try mono, but it's been around for a while now, so I think most things would work pretty well on other platforms.

More importantly, 99.9% of people trying to make and sell a game on their own are going to want to target Windows PCs. So, if that's the case, what's wrong with C#? Plus, you'd have the option of giving it away for free on the 360 if you wanted to go that route.

However, if you are going for the experience of being a real developer you are better off using something like SDL and C++.

Sure. To do real development on console systems, C++ is the only viable option. So, if want to use your game as a show-piece to get a job at a real company, then yeah, doing it in C++ is probably preferable. Although you might want to use DirectX instead of SDL if that's your goal.

With that being said, most people's(including myself) pet projects tend to be too ambitious and never get completed. Given that, I don't think it's a bad idea per-se to use an easier language like C# since your chance of sticking with it would be higher. Having a fully-functional game in C# is probably more impressive than a half-finished piece in C++.

At any rate, any experience is good experience. So, just go with what works for you :smile:

Update to the SkullGirls website
http://www.skullgirls.com/

Lookin good! :tup:

Master_Amado

06-22-2008, 08:44 PM

Update, in case anyone is interested. Lots of small gameplay tweaks (blocking changes, new gameplay mechanics, improved jumps, whatever), some EX moves, new FMOD support, whatever else. Just want opinions on how its getting along, and tell me how the new jumping feels. I've been told by people it finally feels good.

Demo v2.9 (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=46)
System Mechanics (http://z3.invisionfree.com/ShowdownAcademy/index.php?showtopic=22) - new information in red, just ask and I'll go into more detail about certain stuff if anyone wants.

Also, I want some ideas on how to differentiate holds from throws in this game. I've got a few, but I wouldn't mind hearing some other ideas first... I don't want it to be exactly like Street Fighter or anything, as you can see with the Counter Hit taking away Super.

Hey just wanted to ask you why the attacks do not have hit boxes. In other words
if two attacks make contact nothing happens. I just wondering if you planned on making some kind of attack priority system or whether you planed on making the attacks just trade hits. I know it is still debated in the mugen community of how snk and capcom apparently handle the coding in the situation of over lapping attacks.

Ashenwraith

06-22-2008, 11:55 PM

I must respectfully disagree with this. C# is a very nice language. It's not perfect(I haven't found a perfect one yet), but it's pretty good. Also, technically, it's not exclusive to Windows. I've never had the need to try mono, but it's been around for a while now, so I think most things would work pretty well on other platforms.

More importantly, 99.9% of people trying to make and sell a game on their own are going to want to target Windows PCs. So, if that's the case, what's wrong with C#? Plus, you'd have the option of giving it away for free on the 360 if you wanted to go that route.

Sure. To do real development on console systems, C++ is the only viable option. So, if want to use your game as a show-piece to get a job at a real company, then yeah, doing it in C++ is probably preferable. Although you might want to use DirectX instead of SDL if that's your goal.

With that being said, most people's(including myself) pet projects tend to be too ambitious and never get completed. Given that, I don't think it's a bad idea per-se to use an easier language like C# since your chance of sticking with it would be higher. Having a fully-functional game in C# is probably more impressive than a half-finished piece in C++.

At any rate, any experience is good experience. So, just go with what works for you :smile:

Lookin good! :tup:

C# is just microsoft's weak ass attempt to drive Java out of business -- you're better off using real Java or C++.

There are now pro games developed and sold that were written in java.

Anyways you are overblowing this 'easy' thing.

C# is not that much different than C++ just like java is not that much different than C++.

IE, if you can program in Java you can program in C++, if you can program in C# you can program in C++ (I know -- I learned C++ before Java).

Once again.. the purpose of java is that it is platform independent for the most part and has a lot of APIs built in for this purpose (ie, platform independent windowing GUI, file system, networking, etc).

C# is just microsoft's reaction to Java like IE is to netscape, windows to mac os, etc, etc.

If you're going to be working on a windows platform you are better off just using C++ than C# -- if you are good enough of a programmer to make a game chances are you program for a living in either C++ or java (not too many C# programmers doing that for a living).

Most people who use C# seem to be college students who learned it first or microsoft employees.

Direct X is also not that great for many platforms either -- all playstations, psp, nintendo, ds, linux, iphone/mac, some arcade machines, etc use OpenGL which is platform independent.

They are just about equal other than a few shaders except that Direct 3D only works on MS platforms (see the pattern MS has).

On the plus side if you write the game with opengl your game will run everywhere.

============================

Oh and one more thing...

SDL is just a library to make programming easier. You can use whatever you want for the rendering including OpenGL and Direct X.

SweetJohnnyV

06-23-2008, 03:54 AM

C# is just microsoft's weak ass attempt to drive Java out of business -- you're better off using real Java or C++.

That a simplistic and unsubstantial breakdown of the matter. Please tell me, in what real tangible ways would using Java or C++ be better?

There are now pro games developed and sold that were written in java.

I actually find that surprising. But so what? There are pro games being developed with C# too. I'm sure you could make a "pro" game for PCs with many languages. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.

Anyways you are overblowing this 'easy' thing.

C# is not that much different than C++ just like java is not that much different than C++.

LOL! Are you serious? I program games professionally for consoles. There is a world of difference in in the effort it takes to get things done in C++ vs C#. I can't speak to Java since I don't know of a single game company using Java. However, C# is used all the time for tools development and it's a lot easier than C++.

IE, if you can program in Java you can program in C++, if you can program in C# you can program in C++ (I know -- I learned C++ before Java).

Sure. The concepts transfer quite well between all of the Object-Oriented C-like languages. You could also use VB.NET or something else. But being able to understand how to write code in multiple languages doesn't mean that they all take the same amount of development effort. Here's a few facts about C# vs C++:

Pro C#
1. Compile times of C# programs are infinitely faster.
2. You don't have to worry about include files or the order of declaration.
3. You don't have to manually worry about every memory allocation you make.
4. Intellisense support works much better in C#
5. C# handling of basic things like strings, enums, etc are superior to C++
6. The .NET libraries offer TONS of things that C++ lacks out-of-the-box
7. Language level support for Properties and Events are superior to C++ hacks
8. If you find something lacking in C#, you can invoke/wrap native C/C++ libs
9. Etc...I don't really see the need to go on.

Pro C++
1. Templates are more powerful than C#'s Generics
2. You don't have to write wrappers to use C/C++ libs
3. You can write programs on consoles.

Quite frankly, I think that being able to write programs on consoles is really the only major advantage for C++. If I could use C# on consoles, I would. I think you could write the ~5% of code that's performance critical in C++ and write the rest of your game in C#. Unfortunately, that's not possible. So, we're stuck with C++ for the time being.

Once again.. the purpose of java is that it is platform independent for the most part and has a lot of APIs built in for this purpose (ie, platform independent windowing GUI, file system, networking, etc).

Platform independence is fools gold. It is much easier said than done. It's always admirable to write portable code. But getting your program to run well on multiple platforms usually takes a lot of work. Hell, even writing a game for Windows PC's that works well with all of the hardware out there takes a lot of work.

Using Java doesn't magically make your program work well on everything. And choosing Java for writing games means that finding help, support libraries, etc. will be much tougher since most people use C/C++, and to a smaller degree C#.

C# is just microsoft's reaction to Java like IE is to netscape, windows to mac os, etc, etc.

So what?

If you're going to be working on a windows platform you are better off just using C++ than C# -- if you are good enough of a programmer to make a game chances are you program for a living in either C++ or java (not too many C# programmers doing that for a living).

Most people who use C# seem to be college students who learned it first or microsoft employees.

Why would you be better off with C++ on Windows? What are some tangible benefits?

Also, as I alluded to before, I don't know of anyone using Java in any game company. But C# is quickly becoming the new standard for writing tools at game companies.

Direct X is also not that great for many platforms either -- all playstations, psp, nintendo, ds, linux, iphone/mac, some arcade machines, etc use OpenGL which is platform independent.

False. I don't know about the PSP, DS, or phones. But none of the consoles use OpenGL. Sure, the PS3 and Wii use something somewhat similar to OpenGL, but they're not really OpenGL.

The sad truth is that you'll need to write platform-specific code for rendering on every platform and wrap that into your own interface if you doing cross-platform games for something like the XBox360 and PS3. Hell, even DirectX isn't completely the same on the PC and the XBox. How crazy is that?

The Wii and phones are a completely different ballgame. They don't even support the same feature set as modern platforms do. There's simply no way you can use the same rendering code on all platforms.

They are just about equal other than a few shaders except that Direct 3D only works on MS platforms (see the pattern MS has).

Hehe. Frankly, OpenGL is a mess. For the most part, the only people still using it are those who run a Mac or Linux as their primary platform. The OGL board screwed itself. Ridiculous extensions and a slow tedious process to standardize allowed DirectX to take over the market share. PC video card drivers aren't optimized for OGL anymore. Almost no game companies use it anymore. It's effectively obsolete. Sure, you can use it if you want. But unless you're dead-set on supporting Mac/Linux, you're cheating yourself if you do.

On the plus side if you write the game with opengl your game will run everywhere.

Nope. It'll run, but perhaps not as efficiently, on PCs. But it won't really help you on consoles.

SDL is just a library to make programming easier. You can use whatever you want for the rendering including OpenGL and Direct X.

Sure. For a completely 2D sprite-based game SDL is probably easier than OGL or DX. I was just saying that if your goal was to get experience in what "real" developers use, then you might want to go the all the way and use C++ w/ DirectX.

Sorry for the long post, and no hard feelings Ashenwraith. I just don't want to see any inaccurate information go unchecked.

frustratedsquirrel

06-23-2008, 04:12 AM

Most artists don't have the patience for uv mapping, rigging, editing shaders, processing textures, or painting millions of little hairs yet they still do it.

Programming in a lot of ways is easier once you get used to it.

But it's more of a thought process thing. Artists can obsess over fine details in an artwork for days and not get bored, but many of them have no patience when it comes to mathematics/coding.

Mainly because it's awfully hard to connect with something that isn't directly visual in the same way that you do with your artwork, if you are a visually artistic person.

Likewise, I'm sure it's the same way for people who are more suited to logical thinking and mathematic problem solving.

Still, it'd be pretty darn cool to be able to do both.

GStick

06-23-2008, 06:00 AM

Hey just wanted to ask you why the attacks do not have hit boxes. In other words
if two attacks make contact nothing happens. I just wondering if you planned on making some kind of attack priority system or whether you planed on making the attacks just trade hits. I know it is still debated in the mugen community of how snk and capcom apparently handle the coding in the situation of over lapping attacks.

I'm pretty sure in Capcom games (at least Street Fighter, particularly SFII which is my testing ground most of the time) a collision between two attack hitboxes will result in both players being pushed back.

That's one thing I've been wondering about and debating, especially within a week before that was released. I decided to just leave it with Counter Hit for now, but I feel like something needs to be done to keep the game less "throw random fast attacks out because no matter what they'll connect", debating on just going with the double pushback. Right now its just all left up to the startup, hit time, and recovery of the moves for the most part. Save the obvious player specific "variables".

Any suggestions on differentiating holds and throws? Aroon has both, so getting both of them to be equally viable for him may be difficult. Right now it has a max of 3 hits (of which they all always hit). Should I stick with a maximum number of hits on holds, but just offer a method of escape? But then there's Air Recover, right now a player can always Air Recover from a Throw, should I disable this option on Holds?

On another note,
Looks like I'll be learning every C out there at this rate. Not that I'm not fine with that.

pherai

06-23-2008, 07:40 AM

C# vs Java is like a religious debate and Ashenwraith is a troll.

the_dannobot

06-23-2008, 07:48 AM

Maionese

06-23-2008, 08:45 AM

I'm a game animator for Disney, but I make flash games in my free time.

Made a few of my own fighting games:
http://www.shockwave.com/gamelanding/capfighter3.jsp
http://www.shockwave.com/gamelanding/guardians.jsp

Flash is a good place to start if you don't have a coding background. It does not perform near as well as something built in C++, but for a simple fighting game, you can get 30fps fairly easy, and you'll be able to get something up and running a lot faster than C++. 60fps takes a little more careful planning, and broswers (especially firefox) don't like things clocked that fast and tend to slow them down even if the CPU has room to handle it.

I do all fo the coding, and animation. I have sub contracted out some of the character design, background painting sound etc..., but animation and coding fit together so tight it's hard to split them up and get what you want.

There are some good communities like flashkit.com that will help you with specific problems you run into. Also a lot of the casual sites are more friendly toward the flash platform and users like it because you can play right in the browser without downloading seperate files.

Some sites that have worked out for us include: shockwave, bigifishgames, oberonmedia, bubblebox, and a few others in the works.

As far as making money off the games, we've done pretty well. Most of our money comes from advertising revenue though. We've had millions and millions of plays on the web version, but those numbers lose a lot in translation to actual sales. If you want sales, you've gotta make games for soccer moms. Still advertising revenue is pretty good. Some of my games continue to make a few thousand a month several years after being released.

Making sprites, I would highly recommend starting in 3D because it is so much easier to tweak and edit, then if you really want to get the 2D look you can hand draw over your 3D sprites.

For Capoeira Fighter 3 we used hash Animation Master to build and animate the 3D models(really cheap, and great for toon render character animation) Then I rendered them out to 2D sprites and import them into flash to hook up with the coding.

If anyone has more specific questions, I'd be happy to share my experience.

GStick

06-23-2008, 01:23 PM

Showdown Academy is good shit, GStick! Keep up the good work!

I'm still chuggin away at Troika, it's coming along pretty well. It's probably going to be the greatest thing ever. It's almost totally unplayably fast and broken, you guys will love it :)

cheers!

Thanks. Having a bit of help wouldn't hurt. Its become a one man show lately. At least it gives me freedom to do whatever I want to the game. You know we're all waiting for some kind of release of that, sounds good.

...

Played this, entertained me for a while but the flash aspect kept ruining it for me (bogging down my shitty PC, having to start the extra program, sometimes messing up when I didn't want it to).

Showdown Academy's combo system is pretty open, if an attack can connect, it can connect. Float and push physics are the only real thing that stop juggle infinites, and system stuff like Air Recover, and invincibility for the defender on bounce situations and sweeps. I think I've only done one 4 hit combo with the newest demo, and was never really able to replicate it. But combos are actually quite simple, so anyone can get in and do one with not much problem. There are some chains, but cancelling is basically set in stone. A move can cancel/chain into another move whether it hit or not, but its often really restricted. Projectiles are the only attacks that break this rule, but even though their cancel frame changes on hit, its still predetermined. Most combos are links, or canceled from the final few frames of the previous attack.

Master_Amado

06-23-2008, 01:41 PM

I'm pretty sure in Capcom games (at least Street Fighter, particularly SFII which is my testing ground most of the time) a collision between two attack hitboxes will result in both players being pushed back.

That's one thing I've been wondering about and debating, especially within a week before that was released. I decided to just leave it with Counter Hit for now, but I feel like something needs to be done to keep the game less "throw random fast attacks out because no matter what they'll connect", debating on just going with the double pushback. Right now its just all left up to the startup, hit time, and recovery of the moves for the most part. Save the obvious player specific "variables".

Any suggestions on differentiating holds and throws? Aroon has both, so getting both of them to be equally viable for him may be difficult. Right now it has a max of 3 hits (of which they all always hit). Should I stick with a maximum number of hits on holds, but just offer a method of escape? But then there's Air Recover, right now a player can always Air Recover from a Throw, should I disable this option on Holds?

On another note,
Looks like I'll be learning every C out there at this rate. Not that I'm not fine with that.

So you are planning on adding hit boxes to all normal attacks but just have not done it yet.

The other question I had about the game engine is why do all attacks seem to have the same amount of hit stun. I imagine it has to do with the way the combo system is set up but it feel like it might lead to infinite combos or 100% combos.

Also I misread the move list and thought Aroon had an air throw so I jumped forward and pressed down and close punch and kick together and Aroon froze in the air and the whole screen scrolled down until the background was gone and all I could see was the energy bars. I have been able to do it several times and I notice he does a knee and moves slightly forward in the air before he gets frozen.

As far as throws are concerned the animation seems very odd It seems way to fast. I think given the relative speed of throws in your current build air recovery on throws does not make a lot of sense. I think the only reason you would need an air recovery from a throw is if there is a possibility of being attacked or juggled while still in the air recovering from the initial throw which does not seem possible as far as I can tell.

Ashenwraith

06-23-2008, 02:10 PM

That a simplistic and unsubstantial breakdown of the matter. Please tell me, in what real tangible ways would using Java or C++ be better?

I actually find that surprising. But so what? There are pro games being developed with C# too. I'm sure you could make a "pro" game for PCs with many languages. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea.

LOL! Are you serious? I program games professionally for consoles. There is a world of difference in in the effort it takes to get things done in C++ vs C#. I can't speak to Java since I don't know of a single game company using Java. However, C# is used all the time for tools development and it's a lot easier than C++.

Sure. The concepts transfer quite well between all of the Object-Oriented C-like languages. You could also use VB.NET or something else. But being able to understand how to write code in multiple languages doesn't mean that they all take the same amount of development effort. Here's a few facts about C# vs C++:

Pro C#
1. Compile times of C# programs are infinitely faster.
2. You don't have to worry about include files or the order of declaration.
3. You don't have to manually worry about every memory allocation you make.
4. Intellisense support works much better in C#
5. C# handling of basic things like strings, enums, etc are superior to C++
6. The .NET libraries offer TONS of things that C++ lacks out-of-the-box
7. Language level support for Properties and Events are superior to C++ hacks
8. If you find something lacking in C#, you can invoke/wrap native C/C++ libs
9. Etc...I don't really see the need to go on.

Pro C++
1. Templates are more powerful than C#'s Generics
2. You don't have to write wrappers to use C/C++ libs
3. You can write programs on consoles.

Quite frankly, I think that being able to write programs on consoles is really the only major advantage for C++. If I could use C# on consoles, I would. I think you could write the ~5% of code that's performance critical in C++ and write the rest of your game in C#. Unfortunately, that's not possible. So, we're stuck with C++ for the time being.

Platform independence is fools gold. It is much easier said than done. It's always admirable to write portable code. But getting your program to run well on multiple platforms usually takes a lot of work. Hell, even writing a game for Windows PC's that works well with all of the hardware out there takes a lot of work.

Using Java doesn't magically make your program work well on everything. And choosing Java for writing games means that finding help, support libraries, etc. will be much tougher since most people use C/C++, and to a smaller degree C#.

So what?

Why would you be better off with C++ on Windows? What are some tangible benefits?

Also, as I alluded to before, I don't know of anyone using Java in any game company. But C# is quickly becoming the new standard for writing tools at game companies.

False. I don't know about the PSP, DS, or phones. But none of the consoles use OpenGL. Sure, the PS3 and Wii use something somewhat similar to OpenGL, but they're not really OpenGL.

The sad truth is that you'll need to write platform-specific code for rendering on every platform and wrap that into your own interface if you doing cross-platform games for something like the XBox360 and PS3. Hell, even DirectX isn't completely the same on the PC and the XBox. How crazy is that?

The Wii and phones are a completely different ballgame. They don't even support the same feature set as modern platforms do. There's simply no way you can use the same rendering code on all platforms.

Hehe. Frankly, OpenGL is a mess. For the most part, the only people still using it are those who run a Mac or Linux as their primary platform. The OGL board screwed itself. Ridiculous extensions and a slow tedious process to standardize allowed DirectX to take over the market share. PC video card drivers aren't optimized for OGL anymore. Almost no game companies use it anymore. It's effectively obsolete. Sure, you can use it if you want. But unless you're dead-set on supporting Mac/Linux, you're cheating yourself if you do.

Nope. It'll run, but perhaps not as efficiently, on PCs. But it won't really help you on consoles.

Sure. For a completely 2D sprite-based game SDL is probably easier than OGL or DX. I was just saying that if your goal was to get experience in what "real" developers use, then you might want to go the all the way and use C++ w/ DirectX.

Sorry for the long post, and no hard feelings Ashenwraith. I just don't want to see any inaccurate information go unchecked.

OpenGL is a 'mess'?

Sorry you just lost about any validity you had there, especially since John Carmack has repeatedly said the exact opposite when comparing OpenGL to Direct 3D.

Sorry man you're just trying too hard to act like you know what you're talking about and it's just not worth debating (no offense).

The reality is that C++ is the standard and so is OpenGL.

Direct 3D and C# is what people depend on who don't plan to develop games 'professionally' outside of their windows/xbox sandbox which is why every big company like blizzard, id, epic, etc all use OpenGL and C++.

Even nvidia drivers are optimized for OpenGL and employees of nvidia work on the development and promotion of OpenGL.

Microsoft's monopoly doesn't automatically equate to superiority (ie, just because Windows comes with IE doesn't mean its the best browser or 'the future').

Ashenwraith

06-23-2008, 02:14 PM

C# vs Java is like a religious debate and Ashenwraith is a troll.

So now programming discussion = religious debate?

Did you miss the whole part in school about how science and religion are not exactly in lockstep with each other?

talk about trolling...

pootnannies

06-23-2008, 02:16 PM

So now programming discussion = religious debate?

Did you miss the whole part in school about how science and religion are not exactly in lockstep with each other?

talk about trolling...

oh boy...

GStick

06-23-2008, 02:19 PM

So you are planning on adding hit boxes to all normal attacks but just have not done it yet.
A little confused on what you mean by hitboxes here, all moves have a blue hitbox (which is the area they can be hit) and a green hitbox (the area of attack). If you mean a collision between 2 green hitboxes, yeah thats what I plan on adding eventually.

The other question I had about the game engine is why do all attacks seem to have the same amount of hit stun. I imagine it has to do with the way the combo system is set up but it feel like it might lead to infinite combos or 100% combos.

Attacks have similar amounts, but they are most certainly different. Compare a move like Jiro's Backflip Kick with Aroon's Push Kick, the hitstun is quite different. I'll try to add more variety in the future though.

Also I misread the move list and thought Aroon had an air throw so I jumped forward and pressed down and close punch and kick together and Aroon froze in the air and the whole screen scrolled down until the background was gone and all I could see was the energy bars. I have been able to do it several times and I notice he does a knee and moves slightly forward in the air before he gets frozen.

Wow. I'll attempt that. Its weird though because he has no down attack motion while in the air. Does this work with Jiro?

As far as throws are concerned the animation seems very odd It seems way to fast. I think given the relative speed of throws in your current build air recovery on throws does not make a lot of sense. I think the only reason you would need an air recovery from a throw is if there is a possibility of being attacked or juggled while still in the air recovering from the initial throw which does not seem possible as far as I can tell.
When you say too fast: Do you mean the actual animation of the throw, the startup time, or the hit stun on the player being thrown?

Air Recover allows further attacks to be performed and recovers slight amount of health (very small) and stops pushback and float when in the air, also ends the combo. There's certainly nothing stopping someone from juggling a thrown opponent, but yeah given the current move properties for Aroon and Jiro this really isn't possible. I still need something to differentiate Throws and Holds though.

pherai

06-23-2008, 02:33 PM

So now programming discussion = religious debate?

Did you miss the whole part in school about how science and religion are not exactly in lockstep with each other?

talk about trolling...

No, but I have had enough professors with blatant, illogical biases towards open source/java, or microsoft to be know that people are as set in their ways about software development as they are about religious beliefs, and this discussion is yet another example of that.

SweetJohnnyV

06-23-2008, 07:02 PM

C# vs Java is like a religious debate

I'm sure to many people it is.

Just for the record, I would like to clarify one thing. I'm not necessarily anti Java as a language at all. It's just not used much in games. My main point being, finding help, examples, and utility libs is going to be much harder than say C# w/ XNA or C++ w/ DirectX. If the question was about what to use for web development, my stance on Java would be completely different.

All these things are just tools. And it's about picking the right tool for the job.

OpenGL is a 'mess'?

Sorry you just lost about any validity you had there, especially since John Carmack has repeatedly said the exact opposite when comparing OpenGL to Direct 3D.

Carmack stands mostly alone here. DirectX is used in far more Windows games than OpenGL, DirectX is used on the 360, and the PS3 and Wii use custom libs.

But whatever. For the most part it really doesn't matter what underlying drawing API you use, since you'll have to wrap it if you really want to handle multiple console platforms anyway.

Direct 3D and C# is what people depend on who don't plan to develop games 'professionally' outside of their windows/xbox sandbox

Which I suspect is what most people in this thread would be doing. That's why I suggested that combo. If someone was developing for another platform, my advice would be different.

Microsoft's monopoly doesn't automatically equate to superiority

It doesn't automatically mean their stuff is bad either. For the most part, using either OpenGL or DirectX at the coding level isn't dramatically different. What is different is the amount of tutorials and help you can find on the web, the level of support in 3rd party tools, and so on.

it's just not worth debating

That's fine with me :smile:

Master_Amado

06-23-2008, 11:16 PM

A little confused on what you mean by hitboxes here, all moves have a blue hitbox (which is the area they can be hit) and a green hitbox (the area of attack). If you mean a collision between 2 green hitboxes, yeah thats what I plan on adding eventually.

Attacks have similar amounts, but they are most certainly different. Compare a move like Jiro's Backflip Kick with Aroon's Push Kick, the hitstun is quite different. I'll try to add more variety in the future though.

Wow. I'll attempt that. Its weird though because he has no down attack motion while in the air. Does this work with Jiro?

When you say too fast: Do you mean the actual animation of the throw, the startup time, or the hit stun on the player being thrown?

Air Recover allows further attacks to be performed and recovers slight amount of health (very small) and stops pushback and float when in the air, also ends the combo. There's certainly nothing stopping someone from juggling a thrown opponent, but yeah given the current move properties for Aroon and Jiro this really isn't possible. I still need something to differentiate Throws and Holds though.

Yeah I meant the green boxes sorry i guess I was not that clear.

I guess I am just used to light attacks having very little hit stun so it seemed strange.

I have been trying to figure out exactly what is causing the bug but it happens like 4 out of 10 tries so there must be something I am not seeing. No I have not been able to do it with Jiro

As far as throw speed I think its just a matter of how long each frame of the throwing animation is displayed for. It feels almost like a launcher rather than a throw. I guess the real question is how do you want throws to be used in your game. Most games that have air recovery also have a risk reward situation associated with it. As it stands it seems to me like the person being throw has no reason not to recover every time they get thrown.

Of course this is all theory fighter at this point. I was just interested in what type of fighter you are aiming for. As it stands now there are a lot of defensive options which tend to lend them self to a game focused on large combos and speed but at the same time you had mentioned old school sf as a guide which is a game based more on pokes and controlling space.

Anyway I should stop spamming up this game making thread with my questions and just post on your games forum or pm you.:sweat:

Windlord0

06-24-2008, 08:33 AM

OpenGL is a 'mess'?

Sorry you just lost about any validity you had there, especially since John Carmack has repeatedly said the exact opposite when comparing OpenGL to Direct 3D.

There is nothing wrong with using Direct 3D. It is still used a lot. Just because one person says something, doesn't make it true everywhere. When carmack was the front runner of graphical tech everyone would take what he said as gospel, but he no longer holds that position, so now we try and think for ourselves sometimes. Not saying he doesn't know his shit, but he isn't looked at like a god anymore.
No console actually is running OpenGL. They are very similar, but not the same thing.

The reality is that C++ is the standard and so is OpenGL.

Nobody said that you would develop games in C#, but writing a non engine tool in C# is crazy easy. Tool development in C# is viable, even at a large scale.

Direct 3D and C# is what people depend on who don't plan to develop games 'professionally' outside of their windows/xbox sandbox which is why every big company like blizzard, id, epic, etc all use OpenGL and C++.

where do you work? blizzard? id? epic?

outside my job I use D3D and opengl and C++, opting for MFC over C# .net stuff (I know, it's stupid). I haven't written render code in quite some time though.

Do you also hate on visual studios cause it's microsoft?

--Will read other stuff and comment later

Ashenwraith

06-26-2008, 03:41 AM

There is nothing wrong with using Direct 3D. It is still used a lot. Just because one person says something, doesn't make it true everywhere. When carmack was the front runner of graphical tech everyone would take what he said as gospel, but he no longer holds that position, so now we try and think for ourselves sometimes. Not saying he doesn't know his shit, but he isn't looked at like a god anymore.
No console actually is running OpenGL. They are very similar, but not the same thing.

Nobody said that you would develop games in C#, but writing a non engine tool in C# is crazy easy. Tool development in C# is viable, even at a large scale.

where do you work? blizzard? id? epic?

outside my job I use D3D and opengl and C++, opting for MFC over C# .net stuff (I know, it's stupid). I haven't written render code in quite some time though.

Do you also hate on visual studios cause it's microsoft?

--Will read other stuff and comment later

"Sony chief technical officer Masami Chatani reconfirmed that the PS3 will support Open GL/ES as its standard API..." (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129611.html)

It IS OPEN GL (it's even listed on opengl.org).

Just because it has custom extensions (which are common for every developer to implement) doesn't mean it's an entirely new API.

Why do you people insist on making things up?

==================

Oh and BTW, Carmack and Id Software are still the front runner, they just don't release games often because they have no reason to (Don't bother trying to argue this).

SweetJohnnyV

06-26-2008, 04:17 AM

Ashenwraith

06-26-2008, 07:14 AM

Why do you insist on making things up and/or guessing about things? A three year old press release, from Gamespot no less? LOL.

Yes, you can use a somewhat modified form of OGL on the PS3 in tandem with that really awesome in-bread piece of crap CgFX. The OGL-ES API, however, is mostly there for convenience. It's built on top of the real, lower-level API. Most of the serious developers don't end up using it because it's more efficient to use the underlying API directly. This is especially true on the PS3 since it's graphics chip sucks ass and many people need to resort to offloading some of the normal rendering duties onto the SPU chips.

Like I said before, if you write cross-platform console games, you're gonna need to create your own interface and write custom underlying code for each platform. There is no magic cross-platform bullet.

I thought we agreed to let this debate die...

Why would it matter how old the article is -- are you trying to insinuate they don't use opengl now?

And it's also not AND/OR, they use a modified version of OpenGL ES 2.x as the standard API.

It's not OpenGL-like, it is OPEN GL.

You keep twisting this into a 'magic cross-platform bullet' thing when that was never the point.

If all of these platforms use OpenGL and you were limited to one API then you would be better off knowing OpenGL than Direct 3D.

It's not really something you can argue -- the PS3 doesn't use a modified version of Direct 3D, and neither do these other platforms.

Saying, "Oh well, it says OpenGL, but there are details that are different" doesn't mean that you don't need to know OpenGL to program on these platforms -- you sure as hell can't use anything from Direct 3D to do it.

If people in the know followed your logic then why do so many PS3 dev sites link directly to opengl for their resources and tutorials?

Now with all that said, yes you still need to know Direct 3D for the xbox/360 and it can help your resume for Windows, but enough of the strawmen and personal issues.

SweetJohnnyV

06-26-2008, 10:26 AM

Why would it matter how old the article is -- are you trying to insinuate they don't use opengl now?

All I was trying to insinuate is that choosing an old link to a PR blurb on a game player's(not game developer's) website and then spouting off falsities as facts is funny to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

And yet still, after I've explained that the PS3 doesn't really use OGL at the lowest level, you feel the need to continue to go on and on about how OGL is the standard. I don't get it. Why?

And it's also not AND/OR, they use a modified version of OpenGL ES 2.x as the standard API.

No they don't. Here are the facts:

The PS3's low-level graphics API is called LibGCM. "PS-GL", an OpenGL variant, is an optional wrapper around the real graphics lib that they provide to people for ease-of-use. It can help you get things up and running quickly, but it's not what most people use for shipping games. Like I said, the graphics chip on the PS3 is a pretty awful, and typically you need to eek out as much speed as you can. Thus, people tend to use the low-level LibGCM API directly and, on top of that, they often offload some of the work to custom code written for the SPU chips.

You keep twisting this into a 'magic cross-platform bullet' thing when that was never the point.

I never had a point. I said use whatever works best for you. I said Use Flash or C# w/ XNA if you want to get something going quickly. Or use C++ w/ DirectX if you want experience with what professionals use. It was then that you chimed in about how C# was crap because MS ripped of Java and how OpenGL is preferrable because it's cross-platform.

I'm sorry, but neither of those are true. C# is a fine language. It's great for making games on Windows and it's the only thing enthusiasts can use to make a game on XBox right now. And, other than for a very small handful of people, OpenGL is a dead API for game developers. You can like it or hate it, but that's the reality.

More importantly, none of this really matters much. If you get a job as a graphics programmer on a multi-platform console game then you probably won't use any of these APIs. You'll use whatever in-house wrapper they've created around them. So, unless you're the guy writing the initial wrapper, you won't do very much at all with native OGL, LibGCM, DX, calls.

So again, just use whatever works for you. If that happens to be C++ w/ OGL, then good for you!

enough of the strawmen and personal issues.

I sincerely have no personal issues with you at all. I even pos-repped you earlier in this thread for that post with links for artists. I just don't want to see any mis-information spread.

Windlord0

06-26-2008, 11:45 AM

"Sony chief technical officer Masami Chatani reconfirmed that the PS3 will support Open GL/ES as its standard API..." (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129611.html)

It IS OPEN GL (it's even listed on opengl.org).

Just because it has custom extensions (which are common for every developer to implement) doesn't mean it's an entirely new API.

Why do you people insist on making things up?

==================

Oh and BTW, Carmack and Id Software are still the front runner, they just don't release games often because they have no reason to (Don't bother trying to argue this).

Sorry I didn't think to check gamespot when answering this. I went down the hall and asked our render guys.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to use openGL, but telling people not to learn something is just wrong. The more you know about anything, the better. You will encounter all sorts of things as you move around in the industry, and the more you have learned the easier it will be for you to pick up whatever home made stuff the company actually uses to make their games. Knowing anything is good, and I can't think of a company that will look at a resume and say "hey you know C#, we aren't going to hire you" I have no problem with your preferences, but telling people not to learn things is only hurting them, and that's not fair to them.

There has also been a lot of talk recently, and some good articles, about indy developers who are working without a heavy programming background and producing really spectacular things. The game is what's important, and being bound by a certain tech, just because someone says it's the industry standard, will discourage and hurt people. Let people enjoy what they are doing, because it's the passion that matters. There are lots of programmers here that came from copmputer science degrees, which don't teach shit about graphics or game programming, and they have learned and picked up things just fine.

btw, Cry engine broke more ground than anything ID has done recently.

hey SweetJohnnyV, where do you work? can you say?

edit:
hey GStick, Showdown Academy looks cool. When I get time I'll give it a real play and comment on it. Good job on pushing forward alone.

pherai

06-26-2008, 11:52 AM

The game is what's important, and being bound by a certain tech, just because someone says it's the industry standard, will discourage and hurt people. Let people enjoy what they are doing, because it's the passion that matters.

I would imagine a lot of people, particularly programmers get tangled up with notions that they must use a certain tool, and the product begins to become defined on what its built on more than what it was originally intended to be. I just don't understand these blatant biases people have over languages and tools, over something like programming.

GStick

06-28-2008, 01:56 PM

hey GStick, Showdown Academy looks cool. When I get time I'll give it a real play and comment on it. Good job on pushing forward alone.

Hope you come back with a lot of suggestions and maybe even some rants. People pointing out what's wrong and what needs improved helps out a lot.

seantree

06-28-2008, 04:56 PM

damn. nice thread. I've been working on some characters for a fighting game here and there. I'm doing the work in 3ds max and applying a cel shader to the models then rendering the frames out. I have no "team" to speak of so I just might give that fighter maker shit a go just to see if I can get one character working or something. Looking forward to seeing some of the projects in here develop.

Ashenwraith

06-28-2008, 11:18 PM

Sorry I didn't think to check gamespot when answering this. I went down the hall and asked our render guys.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to use openGL, but telling people not to learn something is just wrong. The more you know about anything, the better. You will encounter all sorts of things as you move around in the industry, and the more you have learned the easier it will be for you to pick up whatever home made stuff the company actually uses to make their games. Knowing anything is good, and I can't think of a company that will look at a resume and say "hey you know C#, we aren't going to hire you" I have no problem with your preferences, but telling people not to learn things is only hurting them, and that's not fair to them.

btw, Cry engine broke more ground than anything ID has done recently.

The crytech engine is a joke -- it runs like crap on so many systems it will be a while until anyone can make a game with it that runs well.

The Doom 3 leak ran better when it came out on my old ass computer that didn't even support pixel shaders compared to my 7800 gtx on the crysis demo.

On top of that you can't even compare how many games have licensed Id tech compared to Crytech -- even Unreal is leaps and bounds beyond Crytech as far as licensing tech and creating a playable game.

tech-demo != game

Microsoft is forcing people to use Direct 3D and C# to put out games on XNA because they are monopolistic asses.

The xbox's vid card supports open gl just fine and if the system was exposed to the public there would be opengl support (just like xbox linux).

I'd rather have the option to use whatever I want then be rail-roaded int some BS microsoft plan if I don't have to.

Anyways, the ENTIRE team at id software is smaller than most of the programming departments at other companies because they are pure talent and 0% bullshit.

If it wasn't for John Carmack driving pixel shader technology with hardware vendors for as long as he did then games out now wouldn't look anything like what they do (and that doesn't even take into account what he did with polygons, 32-bit images, networking/online gaming, surround sound, etc over the years).

Also before Doom 3's physics engine what was there -- ut2k4 'physics'?

Now physics are expected as the standard and actually give decent performance.

==========================

Take a look at this:

* In 1999, Carmack appeared as number 10 in TIME's list of the 50 most influential people in technology.

* On March 22, 2001, Carmack became the fourth person to be inducted into the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences' Hall of Fame, an honor bestowed upon those who have made revolutionary and innovative achievements in the video and computer game industry.

* In 2005, the film Doom featured a character named Dr. Carmack, in recognition of Carmack who co-created the original game.

* In March 2006, Carmack was added to the Walk of Game, an event that recognizes the developers and games with the most impact on the industry.

* In January of 2007 in Las Vegas, Nevada, John Carmack and id software were awarded with two Emmy Awards. The Science, Engineering & Technology for Broadcast Television, which includes broadcast, cable and satellite distribution, and secondly, Science, Engineering and Technology for Broadband and Personal Television, encompassing interactive television, gaming technology, and for the first time, the Internet, cell phones, private networks, and personal media players. id Software is the very first independent game developer to be awarded an Emmy since the Academy began honoring technology innovation in 1948.

* In September 2007, Carmack appeared on Discovery Channel Canada Daily Planet, featuring his rocket designs along with the Armadillo Aerospace team.

* In 2008 Carmack was honored at the 59th Annual Technology & Engineering Emmy Awards for Quake's pioneering role of user modifiability. He is the only game designer ever honored twice by the National Academy of Television Arts & Sciences, having been given an Emmy Award in 2007 for his creation of the 3D technology that underlies modern shooter video games. Along with Don Daglow and Mike Morhaime, Carmack is one of only three game developer