Lame/Annoying Retcons In Comics

[ReggieHadoken]

Who's the biggest offender, DC or Marvel? My money is on DC. The constant retcons is what largely kept me away from their comics for a long while.

When this topic comes to mind, the most lame/annoying retcon has got to be Superboy Prime bringing back Jason Todd... by punching a reality barrier. Say what? That has got to be the gayest crap I've ever heard of. Even worse than "Aunt May isn't dead! Some actress posed as her died!" Ugh.

There are more but this is the stupidest one I can think of and I'm sleepy as I type this.

[goodm0urning]

I'd say DC, but that's probably because I'm more knowledgeable about DC.

Nobody can seem to decide whether they want Joe Chill alive, dead, in custody, still at large, or whatever. I find that particularly annoying. Personally, I prefer that he just vanishes and never gets caught, since it lends meaning to Batman's quest, but fuck it. They need to pick one to stick with from here on out.

Oh yeah, and Byrne's entire Superman retcon. The whole thing.

[Zephyranthes]

Everybody comes up with retcons, but I also agree that DC's are a lot lamer. Just the fact that they keep trying to retcon their various Earths into a supposed streamlined continuity is pretty insulting to me. It's like saying that their readers are not smart enough to figure things out and accept there has to be leeway in continuity in their 60+ year old and expansive universe.

At least when Marvel does retcons, they make for some cool stories. Heck, Captain America was possibly the first notable retcon. There was never a comic where he was thrown into the water and trapped in ice. Stan Lee made that up for the Avengers. They've done stupid things as well, though, such as trying to explain Morrison's Magneto as an IMPOSTER. The Clone Saga is deeply offensive as evidenced by that other thread.

But all in all, I don't think retcons really bother me. Some people feel like retconning something invalidates previous stories, but I don't agree with that mindset. The old good comic will always be there and nothing that comes after it can blemish it. Planet X doesn't become a weak story just because Claremont or Marvel decided an IMPOSTER would explain Magneto's behavior better than Morrison on LSD.

[kane_warhead]

Hawkman comes to mind

[maxx]

dc is far far worse.

-robin 2
-bruce wayne's parents

[goodm0urning]

But all in all, I don't think retcons really bother me. Some people feel like retconning something invalidates previous stories, but I don't agree with that mindset. The old good comic will always be there and nothing that comes after it can blemish it. Planet X doesn't become a weak story just because Claremont or Marvel decided an IMPOSTER would explain Magneto's behavior better than Morrison on LSD.The problem with retcons is that it just feels cheap when they do it, and also that it's the only way they can do something that doesn't gel with continuity. Otherwise, a bunch of fat dorks with coke bottle glasses will write letters to them with their chubby Cheeto-stained fingers, threatening to stop reading the book, or--worse yet--threatening to write more angry letters.

[Kyokuji]

DC is worse. What they've done to Cassandra Cain is inexcusable.

[4Play]

the whole Xorneto stuff was lame. But Dc has much more lamer shit though. Jason Todd, Hawkman's origins, and LOSH various reboots and retcons.

[Taichi]

Hal Jordan.

[Khaotika!]

Hal Jordan.

...I don't think anyone can top that.

Taichi wins.

:rofl:

[kane_warhead]

lol parallax is a virus.

god what horrible idea.

Did they explain the redemption he did in Final Night while still being Parallax?

[ReggieHadoken]

Hal Jordan.

How'd they screw him up? Sorry, I'm really out of the loop. DC has done so many frickin' retcons that its hard for me to keep up.

Oh a good note of things not being retconned, Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy are still dead. Some *** writer said he wouldn't writer for Amazing Spider-Man unless he was able to bring Gwen back. Guess he isn't gonna be writing ASM. :rofl:

[Sano]

DC. Marvel's retcons usually tend to be soft and they go unnoticed by most people. I know way more about Marvel than DC since that's kind of where my comic book collecting began. DC, outside of people related to Batman somehow I probably don't know much and even still much less than any true DC head.

Marvel retconed Iron Man's origin to get him out of the war otherwise he would be too old.

X-Men / Fantastic Four, the first one had Reed Richards reveal that he ill sheilded the spaceship on purpose so they could get powers because he saw that there were lots of super powered people coming. Originally it was a race to "Beat the commies." Again, this is something that makes the characters way too old, sometimes when they reprint FF #1 the commie statement is left out because it's not PC. The space race ended a long time ago so that may be part of it. Not that it matters nowadays because neither the commies or Reed ill sheilding the spaceship ever comes up.

When Punisher stopped being a warrior angel in the comics it was settled with one line by Punisher in comics, "I tried the heavenly route and it didn't work for me." If you read his Marvel Universe Bio there was a big explanation on how Heaven gave him back his life and asked him if he wanted to fight for them and he said no, he wanted to go back to Earth to punish criminals. The Marvel Universe books are pretty cool because they fill in blanks like that and a lot of the time they ask the creative teams behind the characters to come up with explanations. Not too sure if this ever came up in a comic but I really doubt it due to no one caring about warrior angel Punisher...

Marvel did try to retcon Spider-Man's entire origin with John Byrne's Spider-Man Chapter One. It was one of those stories that wasn't popular and never stuck, but they did attempt it. It sold fairly well, but fans never accepted it. So for all intents and purposes it never happened in 616, Marvel's mainstream continuity.

A few years ago Marvel kind of sort of tried to get rid of continuity. They wanted each book to exist within its own universe. At the same time Magneto(Xorn???) destroyed New York, Asgard was floating above the sky in Thor's comic and in Spider-Man and Fantastic Four NY was perfectly fine. Joe Quesada felt that all the years of continuity really spoiled people, back in the day there were only 20 books to keep straight and now there are 100s and that continuity was preventing people from telling good stories. Was he right or wrong? That is a very tough call. This time period had lots of stuff going on that made no sense in terms of continuity and at the same time Marvel really let blatant mistakes go by. Toxin's origin is still a very tough fit, Austen retold Sabretooth and Mystique's meeting not aware they already met and lots of things like this happened. Of course if you could care less about continuity this probably didn't matter to you at at all. Eventually things went back the way they were because most people still want some sense of continuity and the more important reason is that multibook crossover events make lots of money. House of M, Civil War, World War Hulk, money money money. :rofl:

In all fairness I think perfect continuity with Marvel and DC is next to impossible. The character is always different when another writer picks them up and writes for them, Kane's Batman isn't Miller's, or O'Neil's, or Morrison's, or Dini's and so on. Not every storyline can be referenced and there are things that will be forgotten about or just never mentioned again like Flash Thompson going to Viet Nam (it would date him, now they say he served overseas) or Spider-Man and Mary Jane's baby no one wants to mention. Or the child Wolverine had on Savage Land because now he has yet another child. Even editors who try to keep a lot of this stuff straight mess up because they are only human. With the best case scenario continuity in Marvel and DC comics is still retroactive.

At the very least DC seems to be sticking to their guns with what their continuity is after the last Crisis. Final Crisis, the title scares me but I doubt they will reset everything back again. Arguably DC has always needed way more retcons than Marvel. Maybe not as many as they wound up doing, but still... All those Superman being a jerk covers, (see the Superman is a Dick site) Batman putting his hands up in the air whenever he saw a gun, him arresting aliens and gorillas, there's just no way you can keep all of that straight in the same universe with 60 or so years of stories. The times change, our world changes and the characters change, that's just how it is.

[goodm0urning]

I really don't believe that all those comics across history need to be considered as having continuity, and the fact that modern readers insist otherwise is the cause of a lot of problems.

Know how Superman forcing Jimmy Olsen to marry a gorilla ever got written in the first place? A. They thought it was a funny story idea, and B. they had absolutely no intention of it having any long-term impact on the mythology of Superman at all. I don't know who was first responsible for saying, "Hey, guys, let's say that all of these stories are actually interconnected episodes in one long timeline!" but it fucked a lot of things up, and that's why DC had to start messing with this shit in the first place.

I don't even want to think about how many times a writer has turned in a fantastic treatment for a new story, only to have it turned down by the continuity cops because it doesn't gel with another, vastly inferior story that was written 20 years ago. Even worse, I don't know how many times that treatment has been accepted, with the proviso that it be rewritten so that it REALLY occurs on Earth #246, which will come back around and wind up a part of continuity all over again in the Ultimate Super Really Infinite Final Crisis This Time We Promise.

Fuck. Just come up with new titles and set them in their own independent universes, like All Star Superman. For the people who actually still enjoy the nauseating massive multi-character crossovers that people are obsessed with these days, have a separate title to dump that shit into. It's crap. Everything in modern mainstream comics is crap. Everybody is an idiot. Fuck off.

[Geese Pants]

I vote for DC as well...............Marvel's really close 2nd.

How many Supergirls are there now........?

[Zephyranthes]

The problem with retcons is that it just feels cheap when they do it, and also that it's the only way they can do something that doesn't gel with continuity. Otherwise, a bunch of fat dorks with coke bottle glasses will write letters to them with their chubby Cheeto-stained fingers, threatening to stop reading the book, or--worse yet--threatening to write more angry letters.

Yeah, but that only makes the new comic that contains the poorly written retcon look stupid, not the comic with the story events it is reversing. When was the last time angry letters from fat, four-eyed dorks with cheesy fingers affected anything? The stupid thing about fat, four-eyed, cheesy-fingered dorks is that even if a comic pisses them off, they will still buy it to complete their collection of an uninterrupted run. Those guys need to stop buying those comics and use their money on buying something they need, like new glasses, diet pills, or prostitutes.


How'd they screw him up?

They screwed him up by making him go insane, making him kill his own comrades, and then replacing him with a crab-masked pretender. DC had Geoff Johns fix him, though. So he's all better now.

Hahaha, where you at, Taichi?!:rofl::rofl:


Marvel retconed Iron Man's origin to get him out of the war otherwise he would be too old.

X-Men / Fantastic Four, the first one had Reed Richards reveal that he ill sheilded the spaceship on purpose so they could get powers because he saw that there were lots of super powered people coming. Originally it was a race to "Beat the commies."

When Punisher stopped being a warrior angel in the comics it was settled with one line by Punisher in comics, "I tried the heavenly route and it didn't work for me." . . . Not too sure if this ever came up in a comic but I really doubt it due to no one caring about warrior angel Punisher...

Yeah, that is the sort of retcon that works. Sometimes they just have to modernize characters a bit to bring them into the 21st century, especially because the characters don't truly age much in physical terms.

And with the Punisher, when something really stupid like that happens to a great character, you don't even really need to address that. You can just start over and pretend it never happened, and only fat, four-eyed, Cheetos-eating dorks will get upset that there wasn't an issue where Punisher rescinded his heavenly powers.


A few years ago Marvel kind of sort of tried to get rid of continuity. They wanted each book to exist within its own universe. At the same time Magneto(Xorn???) destroyed New York, Asgard was floating above the sky in Thor's comic and in Spider-Man and Fantastic Four NY was perfectly fine. Joe Quesada felt that all the years of continuity really spoiled people, back in the day there were only 20 books to keep straight and now there are 100s and that continuity was preventing people from telling good stories. Was he right or wrong? That is a very tough call.

Yeah, I remember we had this exact conversation a couple years ago, if I remember my SRK continuity correctly. I liked it when they told stories like that. As long as you don't think too hard about the official chronology, it's all good.

Do people* complain when Wolverine, in a single month, is simultaneously on the moon, fighting alongside the X-Men in NY, out searching for his past in Alaska, and in Hackensack, NJ with the Avengers? They may complain with their mouths and keyboards but not with their dollars, no sirreebob.


Note: * denotes fat, four-eyed, Cheetos-smearing dorks; technically, they are not people

[ReggieHadoken]

They screwed him up by making him go insane, making him kill his own comrades, and then replacing him with a crab-masked pretender. DC had Geoff Johns fix him, though. So he's all better now.



Are we talking the current Sinestro Corp story arc or something else? Sorry, I have zilcho when it comes to GL history.

Oh, mercy, the Spider-Man Chapter One thing... I didn't read it but I read about it. Just the mention of it makes me cringe. Spidey's origin story is perfectly fine and is still one of the best stories in comics to this day. Heck, despite some adding on here and there, Batman's origin story is still pretty much the same. Just let the killer of Bruce's parents be left unknown. I think its better off that way.

I have no problem with reading stories like Kingom Come, Superman For All Seasons, Dark Knight Returns or Spider-Man Reign. In fact, reading stories that aren't cannon are some of my fav stories to read. Since they aren't bound to continuity, writers probably feel free to do more.

Back to Spider-Man, I really didn't have much of a problem with Peter getting organic webbing. It didn't even bother me in the flicks. I even like the added 5 ton strength increase they gave him. But being able to communicate with spiders and other insects? Um, gay. Can't even really think of a way that this power would be useful.

Aunt May having a fight with Uncle Ben and him leaving and coming back moments before he was killed, that didn't really bother me either. At the end of the day, Peter is still at fault for letting the criminal run pass him. It doesn't take away from him being Spider-Man in the least.

I don't think I'll ever be able to read Crisis on Infinite Earths, 52, or Infinite Crisis without my head exploding due to all the freaking changes each one of these series impliments. I don't have much of a beef with Spidey doing one thing in his comic and another in a Hulk or X-Men comic in the same month. They all live in the same universe so they are bound to meet/team up. But when stupid stuff like wall punches bring back dead people, then we're talking some bat-effing-loco material.

[Taichi]

How'd they screw him up? Sorry, I'm really out of the loop. DC has done so many frickin' retcons that its hard for me to keep up.

Oh a good note of things not being retconned, Uncle Ben and Gwen Stacy are still dead. Some *** writer said he wouldn't writer for Amazing Spider-Man unless he was able to bring Gwen back. Guess he isn't gonna be writing ASM. :rofl:

Shit's more convoluted than Hawkman.

and I'm biased against Hal, so maybe I'm not the guy to untangle that mess.

[Taichi]

They screwed him up by making him go insane, making him kill his own comrades, and then replacing him with a crab-masked pretender. DC had Geoff Johns fix him, though. So he's all better now.

Hahaha, where you at, Taichi?!:rofl::rofl:


Motherfucker......:lol:

they screwed him up by turning Parallax into a fucking bug, and putting a mass murderer as the #1 Lantern again.

fucker should've stayed dead, stayed the spectre, or just stayed Parallax.

he was a thousand times better as a villain. Now we're gonna have to suffer through another 30 years of fucking green boxing gloves.

yawn.

[goodm0urning]

he was a thousand times better as a villain. Now we're gonna have to suffer through another 30 years of fucking green boxing gloves.Which obviously are far more impractical than giant green mechas.

[arstal]

Motherfucker......:lol:

they screwed him up by turning Parallax into a fucking bug, and putting a mass murderer as the #1 Lantern again.

fucker should've stayed dead, stayed the spectre, or just stayed Parallax.

he was a thousand times better as a villain. Now we're gonna have to suffer through another 30 years of fucking green boxing gloves.

yawn.

Hell, I'd rather have G'Nort then Hal.

The only thing that has irked me about SC so far other then its being rushed, as the fact that it does seem at times like one big Hal Jordan Ego Stroke. Hell, it's like Hal Jordan has creative control at DC or something.

[ReggieHadoken]

^Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Why is DC constantly sucking Hal's nuts? I mean, there are like a million other Lanters and this mofo gets all the spotlight time.

[arstal]

Best thing to do is buy GLC and not GL unless it's a John story. What I plan on doing.

After SC GLC is supposed to be Guy and Kyle, so my two fave human GLs in one book makes it a no-brainer for me.

[goodm0urning]

^Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Why is DC constantly sucking Hal's nuts? I mean, there are like a million other Lanters and this mofo gets all the spotlight time.That's the blessing and the curse of the current generation of writers and artists being big fans of comics themselves: you get a lot of reverence for the classic stories.

It's a blessing when you get something superb, like All Star Superman. It's a curse when you get something like Superman: Man Of Steel. It's all a matter of perspective, of course--Hal happens to be my favorite Green Lantern, and I think he's rightly thought of as the quintessential GL. I can't understand how anybody could possibly prefer Guy Gardner, and I can't help but see Kyle as Hal's hasty replacement. Many people do not agree with me, and I'll respect that as long as nobody's a dick about it.

Seriously, though, Guy Gardner? The best thing he ever did was get his face rearranged by Batman.

[arstal]

As long as they keep Hal and John away from GLC I'll be happy. Nothing against John personally. Hal should have his own book sanitized from anything, John should be in the Justice League- he fits best there, and Guy and Kyle should be in GLC so you can have something really different in the DCU and kickass.

Just have Alan Scott bitchslap Hal once a year to keep me happy.

[darksoul173]

The invincible Ironman animated movie... and for real any DC multiverse crap

[kane_warhead]

I have no qualms about Hal Jordan going ape-shit insane when Mongul destroyed his city. It was natural to go berserk when everything you hold dear was gone in a single instant. I'm a big fan of Hal Jordan. I never liked Kyle Rayner.... but it was a cop out when DC established the reason why Hal Jordan went insane; It's because of a goddamn virus. It would have been cool if they tried to find a way for Hal Jordan to get redemption for all the shit he have done.

Hell he did save the earth from Final Night while being possessed by the Parallax virus.

[darksoul173]

I still dont understand how Kyle is a main character in Countdown and Parallax in SC i mean either u got continuty or u dont

[Sano]

A little about DC since I do know a few things, nowhere near as much as Marvel. Of course I welcome others who know more about DC to add or correct where necessary.

Goofy stories that should be forgotten aside DC's continuity problems really started when Flash #2, Barry Allen met Flash #1, Jay Garrick. Barry had read about that Flash in a comic book and happened to enter his dimension and meet him.

In itself this creates a slew of problems. If those comics exist in DC's new universe, Jay has met Superman and Batman before, Barry would know their identities and so would the entire world! Such a thing is easily settled by saying the comic Barry read only featured Jay Garrick and it wasn't the same exact comic we read and that would be it. Course you have to remember this was about 40 years ago and people didn't think that way. Arguably there wasn't any real continuity in DC at the time between books for you to really care. If you read Batman there was no reason to read Superman. If you read Wonder Woman there was no reason to read anything but Wonder Woman. Even with guest appearances it really didn't matter because Batman wouldn't say "I'm fighting the Joker from issues 14-18 at the same exact time check it out!" since stories for the most part where stand alone issues and meetings like this could virtually happen whenever. Anyway, more multiuniverse crossovers of this kind happened over the years and of course it lead to a lot more problems, or things that would become problems much much later.

Along came Marvel. In the old Timely/Atlas days it was the same deal as DC. When we got to the silver age Stan Lee started having multiple characters appear in each other's books. Soon he would reference those appearances, like Fantastic Four 8 for example would say *See Spider-Man 12. This was a very easy thing to monitor with Stan writing most of the books, even if it was just a way to get you to buy a comic you normally wouldn't. This is how continuity began, it was an accident really, not something that was planned. I'm sure Stan Lee at the time wasn't aware that it would get so complicated you would need such a thing like the Marvel Universe books of the 70s, 80s and today along with the internet to keep everything straight.

So with that being the trend DC eventually copied it. Once they did, it really brung up the two problems of the multiple universes and goofy old stories. I don't know all of the details but it became quite a mess, so they felt they needed the first Crisis to clean things up. My understanding is that the Crisis created more problems than it solved in the end. DC still didn't really stick to their guns. Man of Steel, Batman Year One are clear examples of that. It's not so long ago that it was really common for them to introduce Supergirl into this world, if people didn't like her just forget that happened as they will reintroduce Supergirl again in Superman/Batman, hey people like her now so this is how it happened! :rofl: I laugh but DC was probably better off with this method. For people who follow continuity this is a mess so they felt they needed yet another Crisis, the last one to clean all of this up and streamline it. I think it's a bit too early to say whether or not this made things more complicated, it does feel that way and for a new universe the books are still not very new reader friendly. You still have to know of a lot of stories that may or may not have happened now to keep things straight... It is still early however so give it a few years I suppose and we will have a clearer picture to determine if this was a mistake (I lean towards yes ATM...) and if it is something that created more problems than it solved.

As DC readers of today know, post Crisis for continuity now you have to take what they say now as opposed to what they were saying then. Well, you always had to really but today slightly moreso. The characters even have flashbacks of things that never happened! Nightwing's relationship with Barbara Gordon and Starfire is a bit different compared to how it used to be. Nightwing Year One didn't happen exactly the way Dixon wrote it. Even Nightwing's relationship with Batman/Alfred is about to change from father/grandfather to brother/father because now Nightwing and Batman are only 10 years apart. Joe Chill was captured a long time ago. Impulse/New Flash was an incompetent goofball now. And so on. Other than the Impulse being a goofball thing I really don't have too much of a problem with this stuff since it doesn't erase stories I've read in the past. So long as they stick to their guns and/or if they decide to retcon these things just use the Supergirl method and call it a day. Whatever they do please oh please do not put us through another Crisis... Final Crisis writers I'm looking at you. :arazz:

[Overworld]

I thought the whole "No more mutants" was a very deus ex machina way of ending that storyline. House of M was really all an excuse to cut down on a lot of mutant characters, (of course without affecting most of the more popular ones, and really other than them exclaiming about how it's different and there's less of them, still seems to be almost everyone still running around) without really thinking of any well, clever way to do it. You just have a character "undo" a whole lot of others, and that's it, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

It was almost as if Marvel staff sat down and said: "Hey, we have too many mutants, how can we get rid of some?"

"Well they all have all sorts of powers, I'm sure one of them could just, on a whim, wipe out the powers of a bunch of them."

"Oh, cool. Kill Hawkeye while you're at it. Well at least for a little while."

"Um, sure?"

[arstal]

I still dont understand how Kyle is a main character in Countdown and Parallax in SC i mean either u got continuty or u dont

Because SC is taking place before that time in Countdown. It's obvious SC is being very rushed, but it's still damn good.

[Zephyranthes]

I think some of you sort of misunderstand what "retcon" means. A retcon is when they change previously established facts by adding/subtracting something that wasn't actually there in the story originally.

So the "no more mutants" thing isn't actually a retcon. It changes the status quo, or even reverts it to something that resembles the past, but it doesn't retcon a previous story.

Hal turning into Parallax isn't a retcon; that's just a bad story. (Lol, I see ya, Taichi!!:rofl::rofl:)

Making up a story that says Parallax was the embodiment of fear ALL ALONG is a retcon.

I'm not even sure if all that stuff with Hawkman counts as retcons. That character has just been revamped way too many times - he's just convoluted.

[Sano]

BTW ReggieHadoken and anyone else, ever read this site about Spidey's continuity? An excellent read and a good example on how continuity works in Marvel. Some of it is really funny too. Kind of long but worth checking out IMHO.

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SpiderMan101/SpiderMan101Part6.html

[goodm0urning]

A little more off-topic, but this is another expansive article that Spidey fans/90s readers might enjoy. I read all 35 parts one day, in a fit of boredom:

The Life Of Reilly (http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/1.html)

[Overworld]

I think some of you sort of misunderstand what "retcon" means. A retcon is when they change previously established facts by adding/subtracting something that wasn't actually there in the story originally.

So the "no more mutants" thing isn't actually a retcon. It changes the status quo, or even reverts it to something that resembles the past, but it doesn't retcon a previous story.

Yeah I realized that, but the difference between a story that changes events, and one that merely resets the status quo to the old status quo were close enough that I thought the no more mutants stuff was at least tangentially related at least enough to be worth discussion. If there is no wiggle room in the topic, than I apologize.

The worse thing about many DC retcons is that they necessitate further stories to clear up the confusion that the retcon creates. I mean it took forever to finally "fix" the whole Psycho Pirate and Power Girl surviving the consolidation of earths. Especially for Power Girl who has the max number of origins any character should ever have.

[Zephyranthes]

Oh, I wasn't trying to pick on you or anything. I was just trying to clarify. I'm like the king of off-topic tangents so I don't really mind whatever train of thought you take the discussion.

[Debaser]

Batgirl.

[ReggieHadoken]

BTW ReggieHadoken and anyone else, ever read this site about Spidey's continuity? An excellent read and a good example on how continuity works in Marvel. Some of it is really funny too. Kind of long but worth checking out IMHO.

http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SpiderMan101/SpiderMan101Part6.html

Ha, thanks! I'll be camped out at my comp reading that for a while when I get the chance. :rofl:

BTW, you mentioned a Supergirl retcon in Superman/Batman. I didn't read Crisis on Infinite Earths, but I read info on the book on wiki and I think that book retconned her out of existence. So how'd Superman/Batman bring her back? I've only read the first 6 issues via TPB.

A little more off-topic, but this is another expansive article that Spidey fans/90s readers might enjoy. I read all 35 parts one day, in a fit of boredom:

The Life Of Reilly (http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/specials/LifeOfReilly/1.html)

35 parts? Wowzer. Something else to keep me busy.

At one point I was going to read Crisis on Infinite Earths, Infinite Crisis and 52 but now the books just sound like headaches and a man can only take so many pain killers in one day. Sometimes I think those faggots at DC like screwing with things just to screw with things. How many alternate Earths/worlds are there in DC? You know what, I don't even wanna know because if I find out, I think my brain will malfunction trying to process the absurdity of it all. Oh and Earth-2 Wonder Woman is just so wrong. So Wrong. :tdown:

Superman now has no origin because DC has once again decided to give The Man of Tomorrow a new background. What. The. EFF?! :confused: DC's flagship character currently has no origin because DC never seems to be satisfied with it. Spidey's origin hasn't changed since 1962 because it worked so freaking well. Batman's origin, while being touched up here and there is basically the same as well. I've always thought Supe's story of being sent to Earth from a dying planet to be adopted by a kindly couple, and grow into a champion was a touching story. DC, what is so hard about keeping with that? It's like every few years they just gotta change Supe's origin. GAH!!!

Sorry, just wanted to get that off my chest. :annoy:

Don't know if this was a retcon persay, but Frank Miller puting Superman and Batman at odds with each other in Dark Knight Returns was brilliant. These two really do work best in a comic when they don't see eye-to-eye. Yes, Batman and Superman are friends but their views on jutsice often clash, which makes for some great story telling. I know a lot of people hate John Byrne, I mean, hey the man is a jerk, but I liked how he decided to keep running with Bats and Supes clashing views.

[goodm0urning]

Yeah, DKR wasn't a retcon since Frank Miller set it in its own independent universe, along with the rest of his Batman stuff (though DC adopted Year One into canon).

The truly antagonistic relationship between Batman and Superman only really works in the DKR universe, since Miller took a few underlying elements of each character (for instance, Batman's single-minded obsessiveness and Superman's tendency to adhere to authority) and extrapolated them until they became caricatures of themselves. That's satire.

DC made a big mistake by trying to adopt the style, if not the substance, of DKR into their mainstream books. DKR is a whole other animal, and should have been treated as such.

I'm not saying Batman and Superman should still smile at each other and refer to one another as "old chum," but they're still the World's Finest team, in spite of their differences in philosophy and methods.


If they're going to fuck with Superman's origin yet again (only three years down the line, huh?), I strongly suggest they pull a Grant Morrison: take the classic elements that EVERYBODY knows to be true about the character and etch them in granite. The world doesn't need a new Superman. It needs the one we've had all along, the one that DC has drifted away from for a variety of absurd reasons.

[Zephyranthes]

BTW, you mentioned a Supergirl retcon in Superman/Batman. I didn't read Crisis on Infinite Earths, but I read info on the book on wiki and I think that book retconned her out of existence. So how'd Superman/Batman bring her back? I've only read the first 6 issues via TPB.


In Superman/Batman's second arc, Kara Zor-el crashed on Earth in a rocket ship. Apparently she's really Superman's cousin. Although the reason for her renewed existence could possibly be because Superboy-Prime punched the walls of reality.


How many alternate Earths/worlds are there in DC? You know what, I don't even wanna know because if I find out, I think my brain will malfunction trying to process the absurdity of it all. Oh and Earth-2 Wonder Woman is just so wrong. So Wrong. :tdown:

There are 52 Earths now, plus a dimension called the Bleed (something Warren Ellis made up for The Authority) which connects all the various realities. The WildStorm Universe is Earth-52, I think. My brain malfunctioned, too.

Oh, DC... How clever they are. They made a weekly comic named 52 and ended up with 52 Earths! SWEET POETRY



Superman now has no origin because DC has once again decided to give The Man of Tomorrow a new background. What. The. EFF?! :confused:

A new origin? When did they do this?

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one Superman origin: "Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple." That's all you need, really. Haha, gimme a high five, goody, HIGH FIVE!!!!


I know a lot of people hate John Byrne, I mean, hey the man is a jerk,
but I liked how he decided to keep running with Bats and Supes clashing views.

Haha, oh man, John Byrne... I just today read a three issue arc from his supposedly "classic" Fantastic Four run. It was terrible. It was the one where the FF and other NY heroes teamed up against Galactus. His art isn't bad but the guy cannot write. It's like he went to school at Claremont U.

[ReggieHadoken]

In Superman/Batman's second arc, Kara Zor-el crashed on Earth in a rocket ship. Apparently she's really Superman's cousin. Although the reason for her renewed existence could possibly be because Superboy-Prime punched the walls of reality.



There are 52 Earths now, plus a dimension called the Bleed (something Warren Ellis made up for The Authority) which connects all the various realities. The WildStorm Universe is Earth-52, I think. My brain malfunctioned, too.

Oh, DC... How clever they are. They made a weekly comic named 52 and ended up with 52 Earths! SWEET POETRY




A new origin? When did they do this?

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one Superman origin: "Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple." That's all you need, really. Haha, gimme a high five, goody, HIGH FIVE!!!!



Ugh! My head. 52 Earths are all conected? Need my pain killers. WHERE ARE MY FREAKING PAIN KILLERS?!?!:annoy: Man, I'm afraid to even try to comprehend if that stuff even makes sense.

Infinite Crisis seems to have kicked Superman: Brithright out of the continuity park. As of now, Supes has no origin. Well, actually, we know what his origin is, as Zephy said, but hey, that's not good enough for DC. They gotta complicate da heck outta things. Sigh. Such faggotry.

Zephy, you read that arc in Superman/Batman about Supergirl? But I thought you hated those stories in the book's early run.

[goodm0urning]

As far as I'm concerned, there is only one Superman origin: "Doomed planet. Desperate scientists. Last hope. Kindly couple." That's all you need, really. Haha, gimme a high five, goody, HIGH FIVE!!!!GREAT SUCCESS.

[Zephyranthes]

Yeah, I read it. Back when I was in school, my roommate and one of my other friends collected it. The three of us would go to the store every Wednesday and always just read whatever the other two guys bought.

I don't think the Supergirl arc is good, but I will admit that it is readable when compared to even worse crap, like a Daniel Way comic. I would still advice against spending money on it, but if you like Loeb's work in the first arc, the rest of his stuff is basically more of the same. It is something to read if you want to know "what happens" but it's not really anything that will expand your mind or make you feel good that you read it.

The best Superman/Batman arc Loeb wrote was the future one. I think the TPB is called Absolute Power. It still has the overly cutesy narration, but at least the plot is entertaining.

[goodm0urning]

The best Superman/Batman arc Loeb wrote was the future one. I think the TPB is called Absolute Power. It still has the overly cutesy narration, but at least the plot is entertaining.You mean how their narration is separated by color scheme, and how each character always happens to be thinking something that precisely compares and contrasts with what the other character is thinking at the same time? Yeah... that was a cheesy bit of fun at first, but it's a shame to hear they continued it after the first story arc. It definitely ran its course.

And the first arc is total ass crap. I'll check out Absolute Power.

[Zephyranthes]

Yeah, the compare/contrast thing works in small doses. But doing it on every single page for a couple years' worth of issues? Not such a great idea.

Despite that, and despite the silliness of suggesting John Corben (aka Metallo) was the murderer of Thomas and Martha Wayne, I was enjoying the first arc of that series... until issue 6 completely jumped the shark. Okay, a new Toyman, cool. But... A giant robot that's half Superman, half Batman? And Captain Atom has to pilot it into a giant Kryptonite meteor? Really? The dude can build a giant, working mecha that looks like a '60s Silver Age throwback character, but can't implement an autopilot? Opening issue 6 and seeing that giant robot... That's probably the first time I truly understood the term "jumping the shark."

It's too bad because I like McGuinness' art but only when he draws something I can enjoy reading.

Then there was that terrible Pat Lee standalone issue with Robin and Superboy. That is seriously worse than a Rob Liefeld comic to me.

What else was there? That final arc where McGuinness returned and Loeb created "The Maximums" as a thinly veiled version of the Ultimates. How lame was that? He must've read the first Millar/Quitely Authority arc and thought he could've topped it. Nope. Toss in a universe of Bizarros, including a Batzarro, and then Mxyzptlk and Batmite, and that was just an old fashioned train wreck - you know, the kind where the train falls off the cliff because some railroad operator forgot to switch the tracks.

[RoninChaos]

I thought the thing with Parallax was down right fucking brilliant because not only does it set up the Green Lanterns again, but it deepends the mythos substantially by allowing many facets of the comic to be explored deeper. Johns even explained the grey hair and yellow impurity. The impurity is basically fear, which is the exact opposite of true willpower, which powers the rings. I thought that shit was brilliant. And I don't even like Hal Jordan.

[ReggieHadoken]

I keep seeing the words "Final Crisis" pop up in this thread. Is DC doing another crisis story? My word, when will it all end?! :wasted:

[Zephyranthes]

Final Crisis is going to come out next year. Will it be the last? The title seems to imply it, but it's DC, so who knows.

But if there's any Crisis that can end up being good, it'll be Final Crisis. Grant Morrison and J.G. Jones, together again! I hope we get the Morrison on LSD that worked on all his good comics and not the StraightEdge Morrison who worked on 52.

I think Morrison said that the story was a story he wanted to tell since his JLA days, so it's not like Final Crisis is completely just editorially mandated. That's why I have hope.

[FighterX]

I've not read much DC, but I'll say this for marvel:

SKRULLS. Biggest. Retcon device. EVER.

[Riot.EXE]

I've not read much DC, but I'll say this for marvel:

SKRULLS. Biggest. Retcon device. EVER.

seriously...what the FUCK.

[ReggieHadoken]

I've not read much DC, but I'll say this for marvel:

SKRULLS. Biggest. Retcon device. EVER.

That's whats going on in in New Avengers, correct? Man, just hearing about that from friends sounds really confusing. :looney:

[FighterX]

Skrulls are just free-reign for retcon. Oh, you didn't like Cap'merica being killed? UM...it was a Skrull...yeah.... No matter what happens, they can always go the "it was a Skrull" route and bring back the dead, or use it as a quickie explanation for a certain character's actions.

Worst part, there's no end in sight.

[ReggieHadoken]

Skrulls are just free-reign for retcon. Oh, you didn't like Cap'merica being killed? UM...it was a Skrull...yeah.... No matter what happens, they can always go the "it was a Skrull" route and bring back the dead, or use it as a quickie explanation for a certain character's actions.

Worst part, there's no end in sight.

What. The. EXPLETIVE DELETED!!:annoy: Man, that may be worse than all of DC's bad retcons put together.

I was wondering when they were gonna bring Captain America back. Let's bring back Betty Ross too. Skrull. Let's get Harry Osborn while we're at it. Skrull. F you, Marvel. :arazz:

[goodm0urning]

Yeah, that doesn't cheapen Cap's death or anything.

[Zephyranthes]

Brubaker is at the helm. You must have faith.

I think Marvel has learned their lesson from the Clone Saga. If anyone gets revealed to be an IMPOSTER, it won't be that terrible.

By the way, didn't Betty Ross already come back during Bruce Jones' run? Or did she die again?

[Sano]

Yeah Betty is alive like Zeph said. And Skrulls haven't been used as a retcon device yet since only Elektra's been outed so relax for now. Marvel already stated that Captain America and Iron Man will not be Skrulls.

[FighterX]

You know it's bad when Marvel has to calm everyone down with "...they won't be Skrulls".

[goodm0urning]

If I were Marvel's EIC, I'd fuck with people. "EVERYBODY will be a Skrull, and you will LIKE IT."

[ReggieHadoken]

How'd they bring Betty Rose back? Was it in a good way or a crapy way?

With what JMS has done with Aunt May, I'm glad she's back but whatever moron decided to have the "May" that died be an actress... well that was just ultra gay.

Marvel had to bring back Norman Osborn because him being behind all the clone crap was the only way to get them out of that mess. So I saw his resurrection as a neccesary evil.

And Jean Grey is still dead? Gotta say I'm surprised. How long is Bill Foster gonna stay in the ground?

[Sano]

Didn't read all of the issues, only read of it in Hulk's Marvel Universe book but Hulk was recieving help from an online person named Mr. Blue. Mr. Blue turned out to be Betty Ross who had a new identity thanks to plastic surgery. In the end Hulk didn't stay with her and went on the run. They touch upon some of it at Marvel.com.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Ross-Banner%2C_Betty

[Kusanagi02]

How long is Bill Foster gonna stay in the ground?

Well i don't see him rising from the grave after getting a 1 mile size hole blown in his chest courtesy of the Clone Thor.

Would be cool to see his nephew take up the mantle.

[ViciousSLASH]

If I were Marvel's EIC, I'd fuck with people. "EVERYBODY will be a Skrull, and you will LIKE IT."

lol.

I could actually see Joe Q saying that on a panel to some uber nerds.

I was just thinking about how incredibly difficult having ANY sort of continuity over a long period of time with however many different writers with however many new characters.

The fact that the characters basically have the same powers is pretty amazing.

Of course I really love it if both Marvel and DC took one year and just fucked continuity and let creators do whatever they wanted. See which company could produce the best single stories/runs. Call it the What if?/Elseworlds face off or something.

The sheer amount of stories/concepts that can be done with the massive catalog of characters each company possesses is immense. This is all a dream though, a dream that would of course revitalize the comics form as we know it, but a dream none the less.

The two company's need to have a friendly rivalry, more contests and little fights and stuff.

So yeah, I am totally off topic now, Hal Jordan's paralax thing being explained totally in about four issues shows just how great of a writer Johns can be when he wants to.

The worse retcons are characters who never die and DC constantly trying to bring back the Crisis. Stop it DC.

[kane_warhead]

WHat happened to Hypertime?

[spudlyff8fan]

Marvel doesn't do quite as much retconning, do they?

I mean, in recent times, stuff has been more "ignored" than written out of existence. The Sentry is one example. The Sentry had that whole "forced-to-forget" thing going for him but then he just randomly shows up in New Avengers and everyone remembers him but they don't really acknowledge anything and he was regarded as the strongest hero of em all, but was simply never mentioned before and never fought any badguys.

Then you have stuff like the House of M, which started out as this big thing, but there's no real sign it ever happened outside the Endangered Species side-story, which may or may not have a lasting effect, since none of the X-Men lost their powers, and the ones that did got them back.

Then there's the writers bringing back and killing characters. How many times has Aunt May died? Or Elektra?

And how many deaths will be chalked up to the skrulls? Are we gonna see Gwen Stacy, Elektra, Cap, Nomad, the original Human Torch, Copycat and the Punisher's family all come back cuz they weren't really dead, it's just that the Skrulls abducted them and then the skrull substitute died?

Marvel doesn't retcon stuff. They just figure out a way so that nothing changes. Ever.

[Daidoji Kage]

DC is worse. What they've done to Cassandra Cain is inexcusable.

You're damn right it is.

[The Bucket Of Truth]

Hawkman comes to mindi thought geoff johns version with ancient egyptains, alien technology and dat tragic love story were great

[Taichi]

Okay, I will give Geoff Johns the credit he deserves for untangling the clusterfuck that was Hawkman's continuity.

but seriously, Rebirth sucked, I'm sorry, but it did.

Even if you favor the outcome (the return of Hal Jordan), that story fucking sucked, and you gotta admit it.

[The Bucket Of Truth]

but seriously, Rebirth sucked, I'm sorry, but it did.i thought it was dumb too, like a nichloas cage movie. i dont think anyone was happy (cept you taichi) with the whole "lol well hal jordan is back again...SURFS UP!!1" then shows the whole DC universe at the beach surfing. even batman with his arms crossed

i still sorta enjoyed it though. maybe i should check it out again

[Taichi]

I don't hate Hal Jordan, I just don't care about him either.

he's a fearless test pilot, who can't create anything with his ring but green boxing gloves.

that got boring thirty years ago, the FIRST time they cancelled his title.

the character has no depth, no weakness (even the color yellow was a shitty weakness).

you wanna make an interesting character?, give me a guy who's invulnerable and can fly, but is TERRIFIED of heights (I once proposed a character like that a long time ago, and was told that it wouldn't be realistic, because those two powers would preclude a fear, to which I replied "That's why it's called an IRRATIONAL fear".)

people never understand me, or my tastes, lol.

Regardless, my apathy towards the whole Hal thing (and Rebirth as a whole), it did herald the return of the corps, so I can't judge the outcome harshly (though I still think the story is a fucking shitstain, that will stink up the DCU for sometime to come [I refer to the Deus Ex Machina Fear Bug])

[The Bucket Of Truth]

you wanna make an interesting character?, give me a guy who's invulnerable and can fly, but is TERRIFIED of heights]errr wasnt the leader of the aerial bots that exact character? me and my friends would joke about how he was apart of the gay transformers clique like bumble bee (one of my favourites) that robot who couldnt even transform into a vehicle. that nigga had to run when optimus said roll out, and that robot who came out of optimus prime's trailer. anyway, guy gardner was always my favourite gl

ok going off topic now. will leave it at that

[kane_warhead]

Okay, I will give Geoff Johns the credit he deserves for untangling the clusterfuck that was Hawkman's continuity.

but seriously, Rebirth sucked, I'm sorry, but it did.

Even if you favor the outcome (the return of Hal Jordan), that story fucking sucked, and you gotta admit it.


CO-sign with these.

Seriously, my favorite hero in the DC universe was Hal Jordan. But rebitrth sucked big time. I still can't believe that the whole mess wasn't his fault because it was the fault of a stupid virus. Are you kidding me? He isn't a fucking god, Hal Jordan is a human with the most powerful weapon in the universe. He has a breaking piont, and what does a fucking guy do when he has reached his breaking point? You go blow things and fuck people up. That was Hal Jordan. I was hoping DC make Jordan seek redemption for what he did, because everybody fucks up if they got over their breaking point.

It's not a stupid virus.....

I don't like Hal Jordan anymore...

[Riot.EXE]

no, the biggest and lamest retcon in ANYTHING ever: Fanboyism.

[Taichi]

of which DC Editorial is chock-full of.

Seriously, Alex Ross weilds too much editorial pull at the moment.

I thought it was the WRITER'S job to tell stories and guide the direction of the characters, NOT the artist.

[ReggieHadoken]

of which DC Editorial is chock-full of.

Seriously, Alex Ross weilds too much editorial pull at the moment.

I thought it was the WRITER'S job to tell stories and guide the direction of the characters, NOT the artist.

Really? Wow. I, too, thought telling the story was the writer's job.

I suppose EIC's can have a hand in the outcome of some stories. Joe Q is drawing the art for Spider-Man: One More day. I enjoyed the first issue but if I find out Joe Q had a hand in f'ing up the Spiderverse, I'm going to use his head as my new bowling ball. Joe Q has been against Peter and MJ's marrage since day one. Just let them be Joe Q. He's a fine artists but sometimes I think Marvel would be better off without him being the EIC.

[Taichi]

if you can write AND draw, I'm a bit more forgiving, but really.....Ross can't write, or draw (he can paint, but he doesn't follow any established look for the characters, he draws them HIS way, and flat-out refuses to draw certain characters AT ALL.)

Hall of Justice in Justice League?
KC Supes, and Starman in Justice Society?
Red Arrow?
Red Robin?

it's gotta stop.

it's not like he created these characters, he's just changing 'em to leave his 'mark' on them.

It's Arsenal and Red Hood, dammit.

if you want to create your own characters, FINE, I'm all about that, but don't go changing ones that you didn't, just so you can leave your legacy.

oh, and it's not 1975, nobody thinks the Superfriends is cool.

come to think of it, some DC fans regard it as a joke.

no, Mr. Ross, most of us do, it seems just you regard it as more than it is......

we get it, you didn't have any friends (couldn't be that personality of yours, could it?), so you turned to superheroes.

some of us did, and we'd thank you to leave OUR heroes well enough alone.

[ViciousSLASH]

if you can write AND draw, I'm a bit more forgiving, but really.....Ross can't write, or draw (he can paint, but he doesn't follow any established look for the characters, he draws them HIS way, and flat-out refuses to draw certain characters AT ALL.)

Hall of Justice in Justice League?
KC Supes, and Starman in Justice Society?
Red Arrow?
Red Robin?

it's gotta stop.

it's not like he created these characters, he's just changing 'em to leave his 'mark' on them.

It's Arsenal and Red Hood, dammit.

if you want to create your own characters, FINE, I'm all about that, but don't go changing ones that you didn't, just so you can leave your legacy.

oh, and it's not 1975, nobody thinks the Superfriends is cool.

come to think of it, some DC fans regard it as a joke.

no, Mr. Ross, most of us do, it seems just you regard it as more than it is......

we get it, you didn't have any friends (couldn't be that personality of yours, could it?), so you turned to superheroes.

some of us did, and we'd thank you to leave OUR heroes well enough alone.

lol, preach it man, I hate Alex Ross now too.

Fucking uber nerd.

[ReggieHadoken]

Aw, come now, aren't we all nerds at some point? :rofl: Man, and I thought John Byrne got hated on. :rofl:

As for the GL Rebirth series, well that just goes to show that no matter how good the writer, no one is infallable. I love Loeb/Sale's collaborations but I didn't think Superman For All Season was anything special.

[Taichi]

Johns is a fantastic writer, I don't hate him at all (even though he ruined my favorite character).

I forgive him several slights, because he IS so fucking good.

[RoninChaos]

You guys are aware of the scope of things Johns did with Rebirth, right? Actually giving a reason as to why Yellow was an impurity was fucking smart as hell. How lame was it that a Green Lantern could get his ass kicked by a guy with a bottle of mustard?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

On top of that, the scope that Johns has brought to the entire Green Lantern mythos is quite impressive. I think some of you guys are missing that Rebirth is really just the start of restarting the Green Lantern Corps, and setting up all kinds of cool shit (Did you see the stuff about the Red Rings?) for the future.

Johns nullifying what happened with Hal Jordan was some really creative writing. You guys are the first people I've met that don't like the story, or can't appreciate just how impressive that "retcon" was. Most retcons are done because people can't write interesting stories based around something that happened previously and a stupid conclusion is come to in order to make new stories possible. Johns went in the opposite direction and wrote something that opens up a whole SLEW of story telling possibilities while taking away the blemish of what happened to Hal Jordan.

And have any of you actually READ Green Lantern since this happened? It's not like the entire Green Lantern Corps is going "YAAAAAAAAAAY HAL JORDAN!" Mad folks distrust him, and what he did gets referenced QUITE a bit.

[Riot.EXE]

so what WAS the reason Yellow was able to beat the green lanterns? (I don't read DC, but I know the basics at least...)

[darksoul173]

Yellow could use their rings on a fatal level like you know kill and green couldnt but they change that

[ViciousSLASH]

anip

Even though I am not keeping up with it, I loved what Johns did. I guess we are in the minority around here BPL.

He is "flashing" GL.

He even made BLACK HAND COOL. BLACK FUCKING HAND.

Yellow rings are a pure representation of fear. The exact opposite of willpower.

This is why all things yellow were green lanturn ring's weakness.

He couldn't have explained and cleaned that up any better. I think I should go steal, I mean buy some GL right now.

[kane_warhead]

You guys are aware of the scope of things Johns did with Rebirth, right? Actually giving a reason as to why Yellow was an impurity was fucking smart as hell. How lame was it that a Green Lantern could get his ass kicked by a guy with a bottle of mustard?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

On top of that, the scope that Johns has brought to the entire Green Lantern mythos is quite impressive. I think some of you guys are missing that Rebirth is really just the start of restarting the Green Lantern Corps, and setting up all kinds of cool shit (Did you see the stuff about the Red Rings?) for the future.

Johns nullifying what happened with Hal Jordan was some really creative writing. You guys are the first people I've met that don't like the story, or can't appreciate just how impressive that "retcon" was. Most retcons are done because people can't write interesting stories based around something that happened previously and a stupid conclusion is come to in order to make new stories possible. Johns went in the opposite direction and wrote something that opens up a whole SLEW of story telling possibilities while taking away the blemish of what happened to Hal Jordan.

And have any of you actually READ Green Lantern since this happened? It's not like the entire Green Lantern Corps is going "YAAAAAAAAAAY HAL JORDAN!" Mad folks distrust him, and what he did gets referenced QUITE a bit.

It's not my fault, the parasite made me do it.

I always liked Hal Jordan because he was infallible. Everyone will react the same way that he did, when he lost everyone he has ever loved.

[PersonaDark]

Spiderman: One more Day when the last issue drops.