Please eliminate WHIFFING POKES TO BUILD METER.

[shinblanka]

Characters with great offensive options like yun, yang, ken, makoto, and akuma shouldn't have to sit back and whiff attacks to build meter. That's a personal playing style issue not a gameplay issue imo. You can't force people to play like you want them to play. Kinda like the age old arguement about turtle style vs rushdown style. Both are effective fighting styles, but one is fun to watch and the other is boring to watch.

[polarity]

But to those who are getting into the game, and playing (I assume) against others of comparative skill, they won't be whiffing to build meter or even understand the deeper concepts and applications of it; they'll be mashing HK and HP and trying to figure out more rudimentary stuff. Why take something out that isn't necessary per the engine? It isn't like the game forces you to whiff moves; the player chooses to for whatever reason he feels like, and whenever he feels like. Don't feel like whiffing normals to build meter? DON'T.

this is seriously the most retarded argument in favor of keeping anything in a game ever

[Arsenal]

Characters with great offensive options like yun, yang, ken, makoto, and akuma shouldn't have to sit back and whiff attacks to build meter. That's a personal playing style issue not a gameplay issue imo. You can't force people to play like you want them to play. Kinda like the age old arguement about turtle style vs rushdown style. Both are effective fighting styles, but one is fun to watch and the other is boring to watch.

Exactly, the game engine does not force you to build meter simply by whiffing normals, and nothing else. In 3S, you still build meter during other things than whiffed normals. If you personally chose not to, fine. If you do, fine. It's player choice, not mandated game engine requirements.

EDIT: polarity, why is it retarded? I do not see the problem with whiffing normals for meter. If that was the ONLY way to build meter, than yes, it'd be a problem. But it's not.

[polarity]

because if something in a game is dumb then saying "don't do it then" isn't an argument against it; good players are always going to use all the tools at their disposal even if they think those tools are stupid. it's like the people in the parry thread who are saying "if you don't like parry then don't parry". if you think it's not stupid then argue why but don't say "if you don't like it you don't have to do it"

[Arsenal]

because if something in a game is dumb then saying "don't do it then" isn't an argument against it; good players are always going to use all the tools at their disposal even if they think those tools are stupid. it's like the people in the parry thread who are saying "if you don't like parry then don't parry". if you think it's not stupid then argue why but don't say "if you don't like it you don't have to do it"

But you haven't proven why whiffed normals is "dumb" and "stupid", in terms of gameplay (not aesthetically speaking). also, don't bring the drama from the parry thread to this one.

[polarity]

i didnt even say anything about whiff normals specifically in that post, "if you dont like it dont use it" is a weak argument no matter if i think its stupid or not

[Arsenal]

i didnt even say anything about whiff normals specifically in that post, "if you dont like it dont use it" is a weak argument no matter if i think its stupid or not

Sorry, this is the "Whiffed normals" thread, I specifically stated "whiffed normals" in my original post, I only assumed that you were also talking about whiffed normals as well, although without actually writing the words, "whiffed normals".

Also, whiffed normals, among other things, do more than build meter in 3S, but whatever, if you're going to nitpick over my posts, respond to them, then claim you and I weren't talking about the same thing, I'll stop acknowledging your posts.

[arstal]

Basically, the problem stated with whiff normals is that it works similar to the ABC charge you had in Extra mode KOF98/ KOF94/95/S-groove.

3S is so meter-dependent that people would use this as a strategy. It seems like polarity's problem is more that the game is too meter dependent to the point where people would use such a strategy. Then again, all games with meter have meter-building as a strategy, save Samurai Shodown (where meter building will get you killed, literally.)

Feliniki: It could work, but people wouldn't like it.

[polarity]

Sorry, this is the "Whiffed normals" thread, I specifically stated "whiffed normals" in my original post, I only assumed that you were also talking about whiffed normals as well, although without actually writing the words, "whiffed normals".

Also, whiffed normals, among other things, do more than build meter in 3S, but whatever, if you're going to nitpick over my posts, respond to them, then claim you and I weren't talking about the same thing, I'll stop acknowledging your posts.

my point is your argument of "if you don't like it don't use it" is weak regardless of what my personal opinion on whiffing pokes to build meter is. i could think whiffing pokes to build meter is fine and that would still be a shitty argument in favor of it. are you deliberately being obtuse or are you really this fucking stupid?

[SuicidalGrandpa]

Exactly, the game engine does not force you to build meter simply by whiffing normals, and nothing else. In 3S, you still build meter during other things than whiffed normals. If you personally chose not to, fine. If you do, fine. It's player choice, not mandated game engine requirements.

This is how I've always felt. :tup:

[Arsenal]

my point is your argument of "if you don't like it don't use it" is weak regardless of what my personal opinion on whiffing pokes to build meter is. i could think whiffing pokes to build meter is fine and that would still be a shitty argument in favor of it. are you deliberately being obtuse or are you really this fucking stupid?

polarity -

why is the tone of every post like this? what purpose does this serve? do you honestly believe that this tone you take and the words you type are condusive to understanding and discussion?

[shinblanka]

All mr p is saying is he doesn't agree with your "if you don't like it don't use it" statement mr A. And mr A. Has agreed with me, but said it in a different way. People are going to abuse the best shit in every game, but IMO whiffing normal attacks to build super meter are not gamebreaking just to abused in sf3 3rd strike.

[UltraDavid]

It's important to recognize that this isn't just a 3S problem by any means. Whiffing attacks to build meter is used in ST, A3, CvS2, and who knows, probably other games I'm not familiar with as well.

It's stupid because it makes not doing something into a viable strategy. Characters like 3S Yun and CvS2 Bison can hardly be said to even be running away half the time; it's really more like they run, do nothing, build up their game-breaking nonsense, come in with it, run, and repeat. This is an effective strategy for them, no doubt about it, but it's strategically boring.

And make no mistake, if something is effective, good players will use it. Saying to a CvS2 A-groove Bison player or 3S Yun player, "Don't run away to build meter!" isn't going to be effective, either in your admonition or, if the player tries it, in gameplay. The only way to get rid of this kind of boring crap is to change the game's incentives.

[Shin00bi]

Replace whiffing with a charge up thing that still looks cool and not all retarded like whiffing.

People will not really do it much then, but it's effective if someone's just turtling, you can at least charge it up and punish them easier for turtling.

[Pimp Willy]

But, if you took away wiff normals from somebody like A-bison, then he drops in the tier level, only to be replaced by something else. The game isn't now balanced; its just shifted tiers. Instead of "You shouldn't be able to whiff normals to get meter in A groove!" it'll turn into "You shouldn't gain rage for JDing in K groove, all it does it promote turtling".

Whiffing normals makes some characters viable that otherwise wouldn't be, which I don't see as a bad thing.

[UltraDavid]

Pimp we're talking about a new game. Obviously if you take whiffing out of CvS2, things change, but that's no argument against never putting that into SF4 in the first place. Meter building through whiffing makes for uninteresting play, and it shouldn't be in the new game.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

But, if you took away wiff normals from somebody like A-bison, then he drops in the tier level, only to be replaced by something else. The game isn't now balanced; its just shifted tiers. Instead of "You shouldn't be able to whiff normals to get meter in A groove!" it'll turn into "You shouldn't gain rage for JDing in K groove, all it does it promote turtling".

Whiffing normals makes some characters viable that otherwise wouldn't be, which I don't see as a bad thing.

the point is that instead of making A Groove Bison a good character, they let him wiff normals for meter to be able to compete. Its lazy on the creator spart and proves what a crappy character A groove Bison really is because without something as lame as Wiffing normals for meter he drops in the tier list greatly because he can't actually compete on a real level. Only with Meter.

This isn't a good thing people.

[xero15]

theres nothing wrong with whiffing normals for meter. the only game that really did them bad was 3S with characters like ken and yun etc since their best SA's had short meters allowing them to whiff real quick hit with a combo that leads into SA and then repeat. all the other games didnt build that much meter to be broken. just give a universal long bar that doesnt really add meter when you whiff but adds greatly when you attack.

[Pimp Willy]

Yes, it may be a new game, but there is still no convincing argument that whiffing meter is bad for gameplay other than a few people upset that it promotes a gameplay other than rush down. It's all nothing but opinions.

My opinion is anything that adds another layer to the game, and gives the player options, is a good thing.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I just gave a perfectly good one. Its not that A Bison is a Turtler. Its that hes compleate crap without it.

[shinblanka]

It's important to recognize that this isn't just a 3S problem by any means. Whiffing attacks to build meter is used in ST, A3, CvS2, and who knows, probably other games I'm not familiar with as well.

It's stupid because it makes not doing something into a viable strategy. Characters like 3S Yun and CvS2 Bison can hardly be said to even be running away half the time; it's really more like they run, do nothing, build up their game-breaking nonsense, come in with it, run, and repeat. This is an effective strategy for them, no doubt about it, but it's strategically boring.

And make no mistake, if something is effective, good players will use it. Saying to a CvS2 A-groove Bison player or 3S Yun player, "Don't run away to build meter!" isn't going to be effective, either in your admonition or, if the player tries it, in gameplay. The only way to get rid of this kind of boring crap is to change the game's incentives.

You have good points sir. The only thing I see that's false in your post is that you can whiff normal attacks in ST to gain super meter. You have to connect/hit with normal moves to gain meter in ST. I own the japanese arcade version of ST and I never seen normal attacks build super meter when you whiff them. Only special moves build super meters in ST.

[polarity]

he said "attacks" not "normals" :#)

[UltraDavid]

But whiffing attacks doesn't bring in more strategy. It can make characters better, but that's no reason to say whiffing attacks for meter is good; all that says is that that character was poorly designed and needs an accident of the game system to do well. There's nothing strategically interesting that I can find in 3S Yun or CvS2 A-Bison, to me they're completely boring. If they're interesting to you, that's fine, but I'd like to know why at least.

I like having non-rush down characters, of course, but keepaway and turtling is different than running away to build meter; one is strategically interesting and demanding, and the other is much less so.

And yeah, whiffing attacks to build meter is still important for some characters in ST. Ryu will do jumping last-second hurricane kick to get super against some characters, Chun will do air spinning bird kicks, Blanka players like to hop for meter in some circumstances, and so forth. Not as prevalent in ST as in some games, but it's still there.

[B.L. Pancho]

My personal dislike of it comes simply out of the fact that it looks very very stupid, and as a result it's just uninteresting and cumbersome. If building meter while being away from someone should be an option at any given time, then it should be built into the game in a more comprehensive way than just having people whiffing normals for upwards of 20 seconds.

[Shin00bi]

My personal dislike of it comes simply out of the fact that it looks very very stupid, and as a result it's just uninteresting and cumbersome. If building meter while being away from someone should be an option at any given time, then it should be built into the game in a more comprehensive way than just having people whiffing normals for upwards of 20 seconds.

Same. That's why I make the point of not charging up meter with whiffs, but instead giving the option to switch to a charge-up animation for meter build (not so fast that it everyone does it, but just enough to provoke the typical camping turtle into doing something).

Whiffing adds a layer to the gameplay, yeah, but it looks retarded. Scratch whiffing, and replace with a charge up for meter. Not a charge-up that makes it go up super fast, just a basic one that keeps things looking cool, so newbie onlookers aren't like "Wtf, hit eachother!"

Capcom won't do it, but oh well. I can hope. *posted similar thing in capcom-thread*

[ElderGOD]

than just having people whiffing normals for upwards of 20 seconds.



Or you can actually go and attack them.

[Master Chibi]

Or you can actually go and attack them.

Or you can impliment them not gaining meter from doing it and then WE CAN BOTH ATTACK EACH OTHER.

Oh shit that sounds good, doesn't it?

[ElderGOD]

Not really, I'm always on my opponents in 3s, the only time it gets abused is when I fight runaway storm in marvel, but I play Magneto so it isn't that bad.

[CoolWater]

But you haven't proven why whiffed normals is "dumb" and "stupid", in terms of gameplay (not aesthetically speaking). also, don't bring the drama from the parry thread to this one.

Who exactly has to "prove" anything, anyway? This post was originally a request based on preferential gameplay style. Its likely people will agree AND disagree since its an opinion. I happen to AGREE that its stupid for this and that and whatever. What is stupid is that im responding in this thread since whether it goes or stays is not a matter of OUR preference, most likely.

[Terry_nb]

I agree on the point of whiffing moves being strange to get some meter. In a real fight you miss without even connecting into a defending opponent you would lose a lot of strength. But SF is not real fighting at all, so I basically got used to it but won't mind a change.

The same for supers ..., I don't want any of them in the game, if I'm honest with myself. Replace them for Ryu for example with a simple powerful Hadoken (so to say insted of supers make EX Moves, who are a tad bit stronger then in 3rd using some percentage of the superbar, maybe give some moves a charge option taking more meter and becoming unblockable or whatnot) and else render old commands for more special grabs, powerful punches/kicks or combinations. The game would feel fresh this way and still won't become like a Tekken clone or something. I doubt this'll happen through. Just some first ideas on this topic, too.

[nf0x]

Posting here does nothing. Post on cap boards.

[The Mullah]

But whiffing attacks doesn't bring in more strategy. It can make characters better, but that's no reason to say whiffing attacks for meter is good; all that says is that that character was poorly designed and needs an accident of the game system to do well. There's nothing strategically interesting that I can find in 3S Yun or CvS2 A-Bison, to me they're completely boring. If they're interesting to you, that's fine, but I'd like to know why at least.
.

it does bring more strategy. it's not neccessarily a poorly designed character if it is weak without meter. It means it's the sort of jeckel and hyde char who has to be meak until they get meter. Playing runaway and frantically trying to get meter is a fun and interesting character trait. The power shift adds another layer to the fight. problem with chars like yun and bison is that they're not all that great without it, but they're unstoppable with it. If their supers weren't so good it wouldn't be so much of a problem, the power shift is too extreme it ends up restricting how you play your character more so than bison/yun had to do before getting meter. Perhaps urien is a good example of a meter dependant char?

The other problem is that it looks stupid and boring, KoF looked cool when charaging up characters, naruto chars look cool when charging that weird meter shit to do their supers. It's purely cosmetic, but i want it to look good.

some characters dependant on meter is a good thing, just adds variety to the roster

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Urien doesnt NEED meter. It compliments his game to have it. Ryu in 3S needs meter more then Urien but isnt dependat on it either. It helps his Fireball game and his approch but hes not useless without it unlike A Bison ad to a lesser extent Yun.

Its stupid. Its not strategic its lazy. Its "This character sucks. Well give him a bad ass over powering super to compensate" so instead of making him competant on a basic level hes only useful with Meter. Chuns Even worse in 3s.

[The Mullah]

Urien doesnt NEED meter. It compliments his game to have it. Ryu in 3S needs meter more then Urien but isnt dependat on it either. It helps his Fireball game and his approch but hes not useless without it unlike A Bison ad to a lesser extent Yun.

Its stupid. Its not strategic its lazy. Its "This character sucks. Well give him a bad ass over powering super to compensate" so instead of making him competant on a basic level hes only useful with Meter. Chuns Even worse in 3s.


well for a start urien does need meter to compete with the big dogs in the cast. Denying that means you dismiss the fact that his offensive game is greatly improved once he gets meter. the difference , as i stated is that he's unlike yun and bison in that his power shift isn't retarded once he gets meter.

i didn't say it was strategic character design, i said to play runaway to build meter so you can utilise your characters true potential (only realisable with meter) is add another strategic element to the way in which some characters can/have to be played.

Chun is actually pretty good without meter as far as i can tell.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

well for a start urien does need meter to compete with the big dogs in the cast. Denying that means you dismiss the fact that his offensive game is greatly improved once he gets meter. the difference , as i stated is that he's unlike yun and bison in that his power shift isn't retarded once he gets meter.

i didn't say it was strategic character design, i said to play runaway to build meter so you can utilise your characters true potential (only realisable with meter) is add another strategic element to the way in which some characters can/have to be played.

Chun is actually pretty good without meter as far as i can tell.Meter should always compliment someones game...COMPLIMENT. Not define. Urine doesnt need to Meter to define his playstyle where as Yun and Chun do or A-Bison or any other example of this lazy design phillosphy you can think of.

Urine needs the meter to compete with the big dogs of the cast but it doesnt define his whole play style. He has good moves that don't depend on his meter.

Wiffing normals for meter premotes lazy design which is the biggest crime here honestly.

[Saisyu Kusanagi]

Still trying to push dumb theories:

CHICAGO (AFP) - Some of our cave-dwelling Neanderthal relatives probably had red hair and fair complexions, much like modern-day humans of Celtic origin, according to a study released Thursday. The finding comes from the first such analysis of DNA evidence taken from Neanderthal fossils recovered from El Sidron in northern Spain and Monti Lessini, Italy.

An analysis of the DNA revealed the ancient hominids carried a mutation in the MC1R gene that codes for a protein involved in the production of melanin -- a substance that gives skin its color and also protects it against ultraviolet light.

"mutation" Oh, now I am a fucking X-man !

In modern humans, primarily of European descent, mutations in the MC1R gene are "thought" to be responsible for red hair and pale skin by dampening the activity of the protein.

"{"thought"}(wtf)"

The mutation observed in the Neanderthal genes was different from the one documented in humans, but when scientists inserted the Neanderthal gene into cells in a test tube, it seemed to have the same effect on melatonin production as the modern human genes, according to the study published in Science.

The genetic analysis doesn't seal the deal, but since the fossil record of Neanderthals does not include any samples of skin or hair, it is the best guide available, said Michael Hofreiter, a paleogeneticist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology Leipzig, Germany.

Hofreiter said the number of red-headed Neanderthals was probably pretty small, possibly just one percent of the population and might have popped up in any part of Europe or Asia that the ancient hominids had settled.

The news did not come as a surprise to one leading scholar of Neanderthal evolution and biology.

"The stereotype of primitive peoples is that they are dark skinned, but some paleontologists have been speculating for 20 years that some Neanderthals must have been pale skinned because they lived in northern Europe," said Erik Trinkaus, a professor of anthropology at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

"Light skin is adaptive at higher altitudes because it allows more UVB radiation to penetrate the skin and that promotes Vitamin D synthesis."

Neanderthals, whose ancestors diverged from that of modern humans about 300,000 years ago, colonized Europe and parts of Asia, dominating Europe until about 30,000 years ago.

The study suggests that the genes that confer pale skin and red hair evolved separately in humans and our closest extinct relatives.

SaiSyu:
If you don't want to come to the family reunion just say so or shut the fuck about this old shit!
I did not know rubbing two sticks together could cause so much trouble.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

wha...?

[The Mullah]

Meter should always compliment someones game...COMPLIMENT. Not define. Urine doesnt need to Meter to define his playstyle where as Yun and Chun do or A-Bison or any other example of this lazy design phillosphy you can think of.

Urine needs the meter to compete with the big dogs of the cast but it doesnt define his whole play style. He has good moves that don't depend on his meter.

Wiffing normals for meter premotes lazy design which is the biggest crime here honestly.

i already said, i find it interesting when someone play style is defined by meter. if you don't and think it shouldn't happen then fine, we like different things.

My point was building meter is a strategy i don't mind, characters that play very differently with and without meter i don't mind, i just dislike how boring whiffing normals looks.

Off topic, but i'd argue uriens playstyle is completely defined by meter, without aegis he has limited tools to rush down. aegis xx overhead/sweep into launcher is how he lands damage. Just because he's decent enough at zoning etc without meter doesn't mean his style isn't defined by it. Once he gets meter, you know he's gonna come at you with that reflector, his main offensive tool, and you better block it right or the round is his.

Ken on the otherhand doesn't completely change his style once he has meter, he just has something better to finish combos with than his already excellent dp. Ryu also doesn't change his style, he just has something better to poke with than his mk and sweep. When their stock ticks over you don't think 'here they come with those crazy supers'.

[UltraDavid]

it does bring more strategy. it's not neccessarily a poorly designed character if it is weak without meter. It means it's the sort of jeckel and hyde char who has to be meak until they get meter. Playing runaway and frantically trying to get meter is a fun and interesting character trait. The power shift adds another layer to the fight. problem with chars like yun and bison is that they're not all that great without it, but they're unstoppable with it. If their supers weren't so good it wouldn't be so much of a problem,
I'm going to change my mind and agree with this.

[The Mullah]

woo, who said people weren't open minded on srk :)

[Pimp Willy]

What's sad is Radiant keeps talking like all the stuff that makes these characters top tier was put in there on purpose. Like the designers actually decided bison should have a paint the fence combo? No, they threw in A groove, and the PLAYERS pushed that mechanic to its limit. Did the designers decide that Yuns Genei-Jin was going to be a godlike combo? No, the players figured it out and pushed the mechanics to the limit (combo enders with karas for extra meter? like thats is the street fighter design docs).

Kara moves, Roll Canceling, Valle CC, these are the sort of things that players bring to the table after the game is released that were never intended by the designers in the first place, but who can add strategy and depth to the game.

In the case of Yun's super being dominant in 3s, the hard part is that if you put that super in the hands of an average player, they're not going to get much out of it. Only if somebody is to take the super, push it to its limits, and practice it will they begin to bring it to the level of power that it's currently at. Same with paint the fence in CvS2, nobody picks up bison for the first time and lays in to a paint the fence. So while I agree that the level of power that these supers brings are dis-proportionate, you have to admit that they take way more effort and practice that c.mk -> qcfx2 kick. They really are a testimate to how far people will go to learn a game.

[TrueSephiroth]

In my opinion, I believe whiffing for meter is a horrible idea because in many present day Street Fighter games, Meter is made too be to damn important, since it now becomes the most central form of landing big damage.

I honestly feel that this can be changed so that Supers are not the central form of doing big damage. Make it so that you have to rely more upon your characters regular normals and regular specials then anything else.

This way you can remove alot of the whiffing meter notion. I agree that Yun and Bison where not implemented to have these characteristics, however having things like "customs" was always doomed for allowing ridiculous things. Like Alpha2 had customs...we saw the potential in there...yet in Alpha 3, Capcom implements in V-Ism...and in CvsS2...who was going to surprised that A-Groove would ultimately "not" become the best groove due to past experience?

Imo, If you make it so that Super Specials is not the central form of landing good damage, then the whiffing of meters does not become as big of a deal. As for running away and building meter, I never truly liked this, just make a character who capitalizes on zoning the shit out of you while playing keep away, that to me is a much better characteristic.

[Master Chibi]

Look, the general concept for using empty pokes to build meter is just moronic, that's all there is to it. I think it's a stupid option to give someone, regardless of whether or not it was intentional. You should not be able to get meter in a meter dependant game by whiffing pokes, regardless of where you are on screen, end of story. Why is it a GOOD THING to let characters that abuse shit with said meter to get meter so easily? What the fuck kind of logic is that?

Great, Bison sucks until he gets meter. Well tough luck, bust your ass and get that meter, not sj.FP all fucking day.

:\

[Keits]

Look, the general concept for using empty pokes to build meter is just moronic, that's all there is to it. I think it's a stupid option to give someone, regardless of whether or not it was intentional. You should not be able to get meter in a meter dependant game by whiffing pokes, regardless of where you are on screen, end of story. Why is it a GOOD THING to let characters that abuse shit with said meter to get meter so easily? What the fuck kind of logic is that?

Great, Bison sucks until he gets meter. Well tough luck, bust your ass and get that meter, not sj.FP all fucking day.

:\

Amen Chibi. This 'feature' of capcom's games is tired, and needs to be REtired.

[ill_will]

I hope to God that capcom stays away from all these threads. :rofl:

[arstal]

Kara moves, Roll Canceling, Valle CC, these are the sort of things that players bring to the table after the game is released that were never intended by the designers in the first place, but who can add strategy and depth to the game.

In the case of Yun's super being dominant in 3s, the hard part is that if you put that super in the hands of an average player, they're not going to get much out of it. Only if somebody is to take the super, push it to its limits, and practice it will they begin to bring it to the level of power that it's currently at. Same with paint the fence in CvS2, nobody picks up bison for the first time and lays in to a paint the fence. So while I agree that the level of power that these supers brings are dis-proportionate, you have to admit that they take way more effort and practice that c.mk -> qcfx2 kick. They really are a testimate to how far people will go to learn a game.

1) If it takes bugs/unintended features to add strategy and depth to a game, is the game really that good to begin with? Now, I'm not saying those games are on the level of Mortal Kombat or something- but there are more strategic games out there. Part of the problem is- it's easier to learn how to do those techniques, as it is mostly reflexes and memorization, then it is to become a top tier strategical player. The tactical side depends less on knowledge and more on raw ability. The problem is, the tactical side can easily dominate strategy, and the Japanese seem to have a preference for the tactical side over the strategic these days, so that's what we get over here.

2) Actually if an average player can perform Genei-Jin well, and the large numbers of people I've seen at tournies doing this, many of whom aren't strategic geniuses tell me that it is. They just need to practice. I think c.mk into super takes more effort then Paint the Fence- due to the difficulty of landing and hit confirmation, and risk involved. You're right that it is a sign of how far people will go to win (which is good, but not at the expense of other factors such as variety). Generally tactics such as those do tend to severely reduce game variety.

[EndLeSS8]

Urien doesnt NEED meter.


Stop posting.

NOW.



You obviously do not play Urien, nor have you seen high level play for Urien.

[HeaTBlazn]

A groove wouldnt be the best if it werent for roll cancel.

V ism is just retarded.

[JCL]

I don't understand this thread at all. It seems that people complain about stuff in games because they just lose. For example the threads of getting rid of o.g sagat and nerfing this and that. Why don't people just put the effort to actually get good at these games instead of seeking shortcuts. You don't see top players with these ridiculous suggestions.

[polarity]

I don't understand this thread at all. It seems that people complain about stuff in games because they just lose. For example the threads of getting rid of o.g sagat and nerfing this and that. Why don't people just put the effort to actually get good at these games instead of seeking shortcuts. You don't see top players with these ridiculous suggestions.

why the fuck did they need to add reversals in CE? all those people complaining about getting ticked to death were just losing whiners, right? clearly a top player would never have a problem with that.

[Spirit Juice]

A groove wouldnt be the best if it werent for roll cancel.

V ism is just retarded.

RCing helps, yes, but that's not the reason why A groove is so powerful. Your R1 Sakura/Bison doing a half life combo on your R2 anchor is why A groove is so strong.

I'm going to have to agree with removing whiffs to build meter. It's old, no games have that feature except old Capcom games, and it brings little to the table as far as actual depth. It's time for Capcom to move on.

[DaDesiCanadian]

I hope to God that capcom stays away from all these threads. :rofl:

Yeah seriously.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Stop posting.

NOW.



You obviously do not play Urien, nor have you seen high level play for Urien.I said the Meter helps a lot but he can atleast be agressive without Meter. The point was he didn't need the meter to atleast be agressive. He doesnt have to run away all the time.

[EndLeSS8]

I said the Meter helps a lot but he can atleast be agressive without Meter. The point was he didn't need the meter to atleast be agressive. He doesnt have to run away all the time.

Again, stop posting.



If you read or play Urien, you will realize that without meter Urien has no real wakeup game; his wakeup is essentially bare-bones 3S engine wakeup.

Without meter Urien loses HARD to Akuma's Hurricane.

Without meter Urien gets trapped in the corner by EVERYONE (once they get him there), because Urien's regular moves and his special moves come out slow and have slow to poor recovery.

This is what you said:

Urien doesnt NEED meter.


Stop backtracking on your words when you know you are wrong.

[Henaki]

I think a character or two should be able to whiff pokes to get meter, as a character trait. Someone with a phase type super should obviously get it (like yun or urien). I think it's stupid overall.
What's sad is Radiant keeps talking like all the stuff that makes these characters top tier was put in there on purpose. Like the designers actually decided bison should have a paint the fence combo? No, they threw in A groove, and the PLAYERS pushed that mechanic to its limit. Did the designers decide that Yuns Genei-Jin was going to be a godlike combo? No, the players figured it out and pushed the mechanics to the limit (combo enders with karas for extra meter? like thats is the street fighter design docs).

Kara moves, Roll Canceling, Valle CC, these are the sort of things that players bring to the table after the game is released that were never intended by the designers in the first place, but who can add strategy and depth to the game.

In the case of Yun's super being dominant in 3s, the hard part is that if you put that super in the hands of an average player, they're not going to get much out of it. Only if somebody is to take the super, push it to its limits, and practice it will they begin to bring it to the level of power that it's currently at. Same with paint the fence in CvS2, nobody picks up bison for the first time and lays in to a paint the fence. So while I agree that the level of power that these supers brings are dis-proportionate, you have to admit that they take way more effort and practice that c.mk -> qcfx2 kick. They really are a testimate to how far people will go to learn a game.

Paint the fence was ignored when reported in beta iirc. Karas were in A3 I think, and ignored when implemented in 3s. Yun's super was only really overpowered when people realized the juggle limit wasn't reset by it, if it capped out in a few hits it wouldn't be as absurdly overpowered. Most of the other stuff was pretty much entirely unintentional though.

[Sasmasta]

No whiffing for Yun! :wasted:

[Henaki]

No whiffing for Yun! :wasted:

The problem with Yun isn't whiffing meter it's Genei-Jin, a run-away phase character is a perfectly valid design, it works for Eddie and while he's top tier in almost every game he's in, it's fairly balanced in the later two iterations of the game.

[Sasmasta]

^:true:

No Genei for Yun=whiffing okay. But first thing I thought of when I saw Yun in your post was SAIII [hell, I'm sure everyone who thinks of Yun is hit first with Genei-Jin].

[margalis]

The KOF powering up is actually a great comparison. It takes a little while to get going and there is some strategy in knocking some people down/away to give yourself a chance to build meter.

SF3 taunts are another good example of this. If you are playing a char like Q who really wants to get in taunts it changes your gameplay because you have to find time to do it.

Part of the problem with whiffing moves is that there is no downside. From halfway across the screen if someone whiffs a low strong you can't do a damn thing about it. And if you try to close in by moving forward they are building meter while you aren't. In the two seconds it takes you to walk across the screen they've done 5 low strongs and you've done nothing.

Edit: Like most things risk/reward is the problem. Zero risk, good reward, and trying to stop someone to whiffing for meter actually puts you further behind vs. just building meter yourself.

[Henaki]

There is inherently SOME risk in whiffing pokes but its generally incredibly low.

[Sasmasta]

I think Dudley has the safest whiff out of everybody. s.RH. For the meter you get vs the speed of it...dang. :woo:

[Henaki]

I think Dudley has the safest whiff out of everybody. s.RH. For the meter you get vs the speed of it...dang. :woo:

Not to mention if someone gets hit by it its a free hitconfirm combo.

[Tigerboi]

3S had alot of really good meter building moves. chun b.FP, shoto s.MP, Ken c. MP, Dudley s.RH, Q c.MK and stuff?

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Fine I'm wrong. Do you feel all warm and fuzzy inside now?

[hsibrad]

ITT a bunch of scrubs who are trying to ruin it for everyone else.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

What does ITT mean anyway? Ive never bothered to find that out.

[SnickerSnack]

"In This Thread/Topic"

[GouShRyuKen]

Would it be a good idea if a normal hit make us loose health like in MK? That way the we can build the meter when the opponent blocks or the meter can be build on the damage you do to the guard meter if theres one.

[Keits]

ITT a bunch of scrubs who are trying to ruin it for everyone else.

Ruin what? A tired and lame gameplay 'mechanic' that get totally abused in meter centric games?

Cry me a river.

[hsibrad]

Ruin what? A tired and lame gameplay 'mechanic' that get totally abused in meter centric games?

Cry me a river.

whiffing attacks to get extra meter is abused (i'll agree with that), but what stops anyone else from abusing it? it's just like people who say that RC is the worst thing to happen to cvs2. if someone thinks roll cancel is the only way they can win games, then maybe they should learn how to do it.

if whiffing attacks gives you meter for little or no cost, then why aren't you using it as a tactic? because its cheap? or because its unfair to certain characters? tough. find ways to work around the inconsistencies of the game. there are always going to be top-tier characters and top-tier strategies. either people can learn to accept cheesy tactics or they can be like smashfags and run around saying "FINAL DESTINATION" ad nauseum.

i don't have to cry a river because the river's deep enough already from people who posted before me.

[Manx]

Just wanted to hop in and remark about people who think Urien doesn't need meter: He does. Without it his only option is doing safe pokes, of which he really doesn't have any that stand out remarkably. He can't even play a highly complex footsies game with most of the cast and he has a very limited number of verifiable combos. He can't even kara if he happens to get within range. To your credit, however, I do think that Urien plays better without meter than two of the top tiers: Chun and Yun. Maybe that's the perspective you were coming from, too. Given the chance to play without meter, I'd play Urien over those two any time.

About meter: What does whiffing really change? It's a choice and choice is always good in a game, and it doesn't change the fact that you don't want to get hit by a super regardless of how it was obtained. If you see your opponent charging up, you know they're about to obtain a super, just as when you see their bar fill up during a combo you know it and you don't want to get hit by it. They get a super, and you either avoid it or get hit by it. How you do it is up to the game and the choices it makes available to you.

Whiffing is a choice, and that adds dimension to the game. Sure, the game could force both players to attack, but then you've eliminated yet another choice. Or rather, eliminated the possibility of a reward resulting from a choice, since people could just as well not attack in a game that doesn't reward whiffs. Choices are a good thing in games, and if your opponent is obviously benefiting from the choices they are making, then you seriously need to think about the choices you are making that's going to stop or counter them.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Just wanted to hop in and remark about people who think Urien doesn't need meter: He does. Without it his only option is doing safe pokes, of which he really doesn't have any that stand out remarkably. He can't even play a highly complex footsies game with most of the cast and he has a very limited number of verifiable combos. He can't even kara if he happens to get within range. To your credit, however, I do think that Urien plays better without meter than two of the top tiers: Chun and Yun. Maybe that's the perspective you were coming from, too. Given the chance to play without meter, I'd play Urien over those two any time.

About meter: What does whiffing really change? It's a choice and choice is always good in a game, and it doesn't change the fact that you don't want to get hit by a super regardless of how it was obtained. If you see your opponent charging up, you know they're about to obtain a super, just as when you see their bar fill up during a combo you know it and you don't want to get hit by it. They get a super, and you either avoid it or get hit by it. How you do it is up to the game and the choices it makes available to you.

Whiffing is a choice, and that adds dimension to the game. Sure, the game could force both players to attack, but then you've eliminated yet another choice. Or rather, eliminated the possibility of a reward resulting from a choice, since people could just as well not attack in a game that doesn't reward whiffs. Choices are a good thing in games, and if your opponent is obviously benefiting from the choices they are making, then you seriously need to think about the choices you are making that's going to stop or counter them.On your first point that was more or less what i was getting at. Atleast he has some options outside of meter.

As for the second...We've been playinng with Wiffs for meter for over 10 years now. its not a bad idea to try something else. I mean its not that we don't wiff Pokes for Meter either. To say otherwise is a claim i personly ca't make but at this point in time its gotten pretty damn boring. Every Capcom game has it anymore. Not only is stupid but change its nice.

[polarity]

whiffing attacks to get extra meter is abused (i'll agree with that), but what stops anyone else from abusing it? it's just like people who say that RC is the worst thing to happen to cvs2. if someone thinks roll cancel is the only way they can win games, then maybe they should learn how to do it.

if whiffing attacks gives you meter for little or no cost, then why aren't you using it as a tactic? because its cheap? or because its unfair to certain characters? tough. find ways to work around the inconsistencies of the game. there are always going to be top-tier characters and top-tier strategies. either people can learn to accept cheesy tactics or they can be like smashfags and run around saying "FINAL DESTINATION" ad nauseum.

i don't have to cry a river because the river's deep enough already from people who posted before me.

Christ, I see this argument so fucking much about different things and it's like, how could you fucking miss the point so much? Who says they don't use it in existing games? Are we not allowed to use something and still think it's dumb that the game rewards it? Furthermore, we're talking about what we want to see added/changed in SF4, so the fact that "you can do it too" in whatever other game is absolutely fucking irrelevant.

[Keits]

Exactly. you should see me wiff specials all day with chun in st to abuse her super....

its not that i dont use this myself...
its not that i think its cheap (nothin is cheap)...
its that i think its BORING AND STUPID.

It is my opinion.

However, it is fact that wiffing to build meter makes meter centric games even MORE meter centric. Im tired of this style of gameplay. You may not be... but you have a catalog of meter centic games from the last 15 years you can play. I have very few that are not (and no, tekken doesnt count because its dumb)

[hsibrad]

i like negative reputation so i'll keep posting.

the only games i can think of that uses a super meter and doesn't rely on whiffing in any degree are Marvel and vampire savior. both of the games i listed are very fast paced, and whiffing in them is a probably a bad strat and will get you mashed up, and i assume that is true with other meter-centric games that don't use whiffing. some people don't like games that are blindingly fast.

[Arsenal]

i like negative reputation so i'll keep posting.

the only games i can think of that uses a super meter and doesn't rely on whiffing in any degree are Marvel and vampire savior. both of the games i listed are very fast paced, and whiffing in them is a probably a bad strat and will get you mashed up, and i assume that is true with other meter-centric games that don't use whiffing. some people don't like games that are blindingly fast.

Uh... no. Marvel and Vampire both have their fair share of whiffing stuff to build meter.

[polarity]

edit: ^^^^ also that

of course, if you took whiffing to build meter out of 3s it would instantly turn into marvel, it all makes sense now

[Keits]

lol at no wiffing for bar in marvel.

storm,, cyke,, mags,, i see all of them do it a lot.

[hsibrad]

of course, if you took whiffing to build meter out of 3s it would instantly turn into marvel, it all makes sense now

yes. someone finally understands.

[ShinjiGohan]

In the EX series, the very first game allowed you to gain super by whiffing moves, but there had to be a slight pause between the moves (ie rapid fire jabs won't do anything after the first jab). After that they took that out, and instead gave gauge bonuses. Like 25% gauge bonus for first hit, 15% for reversals and 10% for tech throws. Along with getting meter from hitting or getting the opponent to block an attack.

[margalis]

if whiffing attacks gives you meter for little or no cost, then why aren't you using it as a tactic? because its cheap? or because its unfair to certain characters? tough. find ways to work around the inconsistencies of the game. there are always going to be top-tier characters and top-tier strategies. either people can learn to accept cheesy tactics or they can be like smashfags and run around saying "FINAL DESTINATION" ad nauseum.


What your argument boils down to is that there is no such thing as a poorly designed fighting game or individual feature as long as both players have access to it.

Wrong.

Stupid features are stupid features. Features that encourage people to not fight, to not interact with each other in *any* way, are stupid features in what is supposed to be an interactive 1 vs 1 game.

This thread should have been over when the video of whiffing to build meter in 3S was posted. Nobody can look at that and say it is fun, interesting, strategic or anything other than completely stupid.

[Pimp Willy]

Whiffing for meter doesn't win you the game. If the game was over as soon as somebody got full meter, you'd be right. But since it's not possible to win without engaging in combat, your point is void.

All whiffing for meter does it put pressure on your opponent to NOT let you sit back and do whatever you want. If you couldn't whiff for meter in a game like 3s, all chun would have to do would be get a few hits and a lead, and because of this meter, then sit back and turtle her way to victory. In this case, an opponent benefits from whiffing for meter as an anti-turtling method, because its dangerous for chun to let them build meter.

[polarity]

Haha, why shouldn't life differences be something you really have to work to overcome? The whole point of gaining a life advantage is that you now have the option of forcing your opponent to come to you. If, when the life differential is anything less than huge, you can render it irrelevant by just sitting back and charging your meter (effectively saying "your life advantage is irrelevant because I can negate it with one good hit anyway"), then you now require a much bigger differential for these situations to even occur, and in most matches they probably won't occur at all. That makes the game less strategically interesting.

[GunterJPN]

I see tons of examples of people NOT taking all the facets of the game into consideration. I'm going to start off by saying that I normally don't like to use the most popular characters in the game. I currently only really play CvS2 and A2, and my best characters are A-Zangief in CvS2, and Dan and Zangief in A2. These characters interest me, and it's also fun for me to use characters that aren't thought of as strong... and then get some wins with them. Understanding that, let's take a look at some of the issues people have with the various topics:

1. Whiffing attacks isn't aesthetically pleasing.

Throw this argument out the window. This is a versus game. The object is to win, not to make it aesthetically pleasing for the opponent, the audience, or whoever. Take sports for example - in basketball (the only sport I really follow), if the opposing team is a fast-break team, you slow it down. The Mike Fratello Cavs were notorious for their slowdown game, but it was effective. That was the way his team could win given its tools. He didn't care about how it looked. The end result (the WIN) was all that matters. In fighting games, it's the same thing. You don't stay on the game if you lost but LOOKED GOOD DOING SO. You stay on the game if you win. Plain and simple.

2. Meter should only be given for hit/blocked attacks.

I played Chikyuu's Rolento the other day in A2. I could beat him easily with Dan, but with Gief, the ONE AND ONLY WAY to beat Rolento is to get meter. The character designs of the two characters are basically polar opposites. Rolento is a very mobile character. Gief is slow and bulky. I can do something in the match if I get meter and somehow catch up to Rolento, but Rolento can scouter jump all over the place and make it difficult. If you take out the option of whiffing attacks for building meter, slow characters WILL be adversely affected. You WILL see hit and run as a VIABLE strategy. One lucky c.forward, run away all day WILL be effective. There is nothing the opponent can do about it. Trying to tell the guy that runaway isn't aesthetically pleasing is useless. It's the most effective strategy in the matchup.

3. (Blah blah blah) is not what the designers intended.

It's been said before, but the designers didn't INTEND for any of the BS in games to be BS. No designers (except for in the case of secret characters like ST Akuma) go into the designing stage and say "Let's make this character/move/strategy" be better than anything else in the game. Why? Because they spent all that time designing everything else in the game. The players take the tools given them and make things good. I remember BAS (you know, "This guy is 'BS', and 'A' is his middle name") saying that A-Groove CCs were considered the most perfectly designed CC system ever until PTF was discovered. I personally still think it's the best design ever, with A2 as a close second. The CC engine is fine. 3 combos are broken.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the main problem with games is in the balance. ST was one of the worst balanced games ever (or, "counter-character-driven", however you want to look at it), and since then many features have been added to games to fix the problem. Some features, like tripguard, are pretty universally accepted (except for Ryu and Ken users who miss the "for free" aspect of using this strategy in O.Honda matches... not like they don't have other tools). Most have mixed reviews - airblock, ACs, CCs, etc. If something is really gamebreaking or inherently BAD, they take it out or fix it in the next game. SFA Chain combos were bad, so they were just taken out for A2. Valle CCs were basically eliminated by changing the whole CC engine in A3. ACs went from overpowering to being a risky move (costing guard bar, low damage, etc.). However, whiffing attacks to build meter has been in every game with meter. I don't see them changing it, and I don't think there's a need. It may be "boring and stupid", but it beats runaway all day. The game just needs to be more balanced. The problem with that is, it's almost impossible to make a balanced game while keeping character personalities/styles intact. The A2 Rolento-Gief matchup is bad, sure... but Gief SHOULD be slow and bulky. I don't want a game with ONLY Ryu and Ken, no matter how much I like their mirror matches. Variety is the best thing about SF, IMO. You have tons of different kinds of characters, and you see which fighting style is the best (the whole original point to the game, story-wise). Keep that in the game. Just don't make it impossible for some of the characters to compete. Keep whiffing for meter in the game.

[Keits]

These 'counter examples' from Alpha 2 you posted dont work. Saying that, if you didnt build meter via wiffing normals IN ALPHA 2 and having it make ALPHA 2 not work anymore is one thing...

Saying that its stupid and that a future game should be designed to work WITHOUT it is another. Thats what is being asked for here.

[GunterJPN]

These 'counter examples' from Alpha 2 you posted dont work. Saying that, if you didnt build meter via wiffing normals IN ALPHA 2 and having it make ALPHA 2 not work anymore is one thing...

Saying that its stupid and that a future game should be designed to work WITHOUT it is another. Thats what is being asked for here.

I still want characters to have their personalities. Rolento vs. Gief in A2 was bad, but because I could build meter to compete, it was manageable. I still want Gief to be the same slow and bulky character. I still want and expect there to be mobile characters. I still hope for whiffing to build meter so that I can make difficult matchups manageable.

[Keits]

Characters CAN still have their personalities. Instead of wiffing to build meter universally, why not give each character their own subsystem of sorts?

Geif could charge up, and or have a much shorter super bar, for instance, than rolento.

[KrsJin]

I still want characters to have their personalities. Rolento vs. Gief in A2 was bad, but because I could build meter to compete, it was manageable. I still want Gief to be the same slow and bulky character. I still want and expect there to be mobile characters. I still hope for whiffing to build meter so that I can make difficult matchups manageable.
That thinking is good, but what if they're able to minimize the tier differences or lessen the difficulty between those types of matchups through other means?

[GunterJPN]

That thinking is good, but what if they're able to minimize the tier differences or lessen the difficulty between those types of matchups through other means?

Yeah, that's what I want. But what I'm saying is, even without that, it's ok right now with whiffing attacks to build meter. The only problem with that feature is that it's not aesthetically pleasing. I don't give a shit about something being aesthetically pleasing or not. There's always going to be something complained about because everyone has their own opinions. If you take something that has existed for years and the ONLY problem with it is that it looks boring and stupid, but functionally it's fine... and you replace it with something completely brand new that hasn't been proven over years and years of implementation in games... it is highly probable that you're going to get a SHIT game. You don't take something solid and replace it with something that MAY be good. You keep the solid and add things that are also good. You can't make it just hit/blocked attacks because of character personalities. If you keep the character personalities and put a brand new untested system, you're gambling that it'll be good.

Why not just keep the functionally fine system that just looks "boring and stupid"?

[Mizuki]

Whaa whaa whaa How would I build meter blah blah?

Have you guys not played ST?

[Keits]

In ST, you just wiff specials instead of normals. Same thing, same lameness.

This is STREET FIGHTER 4.

and you replace it with something completely brand new that hasn't been proven over years and years of implementation in games...

Please for the LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, do NOT do the exact same thing that has been done and 'proven' for 15 years. Lets play a NEW GAME.

[GunterJPN]

In ST, you just wiff specials instead of normals. Same thing, same lameness.

This is STREET FIGHTER 4.



Please for the LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, do NOT do the exact same thing that has been done and 'proven' for 15 years. Lets play a NEW GAME.

The NEW GAME is Basara X. If it's STREET FIGHTER, you HAVE to have the things that make it STREET FIGHTER.

[Krimzon]

i think some sort of tactic to build meter without engaging should still exist so as to not limit the game to be played in a certain way (like in guilty gear where a player gets penalized if they don't engage). But on the otherhand, i don't want the tactic to be relatively risk free at the right distance. Maybe gaining meter only for specific moves like specials and heavy attacks could accomodate this

[Spirit Juice]

The NEW GAME is Basara X. If it's STREET FIGHTER, you HAVE to have the things that make it STREET FIGHTER.

I wouldn't say "whiffing gives you meter" is what makes Street Fighter be Street Fighter. :confused:

[FMJaguar]

This thread should have been over when the video of whiffing to build meter in 3S was posted. Nobody can look at that and say it is fun, interesting, strategic or anything other than completely stupid.

I agree that it's stupid, but it's not a result of "whiffing normals to build meter", it's a result of "games where fighting without meter is pointless, and where there's really nothing else to do in the meantime since noone has a real fireball or zoning game".

For some reason people believe that if they couldn't build meter, they would have to attack each other. In reality , they would have just stood there and done nothing. Way to make the game exciting!

Stupid features are stupid features. Features that encourage people to not fight, to not interact with each other in *any* way, are stupid features in what is supposed to be an interactive 1 vs 1 game.

Fighting should be natural, if you need to start having these types of discussions, then the game is flawed. Don't blame players for taking the best option, fix the game, and not by 'forcing players to fight', but by giving them reasons to fight.

[ChaosNightWolf]

Has anyone even remotely good at any game posted in this thread?

Anyone who plays with high level competition will not agree to eliminate whiffing moves to build meter.....

[ElderGOD]

There are good points from both sides.

For those complaining about Yun, the problem isn't really the whiffing, it's that his bar is insanely short. If it was as long as Q's SAII it wouldn't be as bad. Same thing goes for Ken, and/or maybe cap to two bars and not three as well. Same thing for Chun, cap at one bar instead of two.

Taking all games aside except 3rd strike (ignoring Marvel, 2nd impact, etc), whiffing should still exist, but it should be nerfed to some extent. Whiffing a move should grant at most a third of the meter that a block, parry, or successfull attack would yield.

[Keits]

Has anyone even remotely good at any game posted in this thread?

Anyone who plays with high level competition will not agree to eliminate whiffing moves to build meter.....

Duuurrrrr... I don't know these people's name so they must suck!!!

And I agree that wiffing moves to build meter isnt what makes SF what it is. Its one of the few mechanics thats been around for a long time that has really overstayed its welcome with, not only myself, but a large part of the community.

I know a lot of you dont care if its visually pleasing or not. I don't really care either... but one of the biggest things SF4 needs to do to be a real success is to be visually pleasing to an extreme.

[spudlyff8fan]

I think that keeping whiffing wouldn't be a bad idea.

And It's stupid to say that just beacuse we may or may not be the BEST in the game, that the value of an opinion is negligible. That's the card that you pull if you can't come up with something smart to say.

[Louie]

No, there has to be no depenancy on that to build meter.

You could, you know, GO ATTACK THE OTHER GUY to build meter.

Or KEEP HIM FROM ATTACKING YOU.

Something that involves actually hitting your opponent or the opponent hitting you.

That seems to work.

i dont agree, some char cannot even keep their opponents from attacking you and land attacks on the opponent instead due to tiers sometimes, cause the opponents normals beats most of your normals. 2nd of all, some players AND characters are this type of turtling player and likes to turtle (since it tbh has its charm) take Q in 3s for example, that style beeing in corner and having a defence as a wall is quite cool, its not to easy for Q to just land attacks on his opponent when they are rushing him down in corner.

and hugo for example, the way he is built, his opponents will keep away from hugo by zoning and all that, some ppl thinks its :zzz: playing hugo then, but me and many other else thinks that could be the fun with it, since that is the charm of playing hugo, beeing patient, playing carefully and wait for the right time. if hugo then wouldnt have been able to build meter on his own (or opponent) that will take the charm out of alot of things. so i dont think this idea would work at all.

[Sasmasta]

^I clothesline that shit down to run in an opponent when they whiff or just hold back. I can clothesline all day...

I can clothesline...all...day.

Edit: Cuz I know some asshead will point it out.

"Yeah, then you'll get stuffed with a c.MK->SAIII!"

Maybe...maybe not. :shrug:

[OMG AntiAir Dust]

Most games are game tested and balanced before release. Granted a lot of broken shit gets through but they try to make characters even within whatever system they create.

Saying that certain characters couldnt compete in their play style without being able to whiff to get meter is making the mistake of thinking of the character unchanged from the game they are currently in. For example: People have said slow or turtle characters NEED whiffing to gain meter to be competitive but this is untrue. If you design the game to make turtle / keep-away characters competitive without whiffing for meter they will be. This is A NEW STREETFIGHTER. Assuming they can make it balanced the question becomes more of if we want the game balanced with our without Whiffing for meter.

As pointed out earlier, whiffing isnt asthetically pleasing. Before you say thats a stupid arguement cuz its all about the gameplay, Remember, this turns people off games. Especially casual fighting fans, SF4 should be about making street fighter cool again and not something only tournament players will enjoy. If you can make a balanced game without spending long periods of time whiffing meter why not?

Lastly, to anyone claiming keepaway or big slow charcters cannot be competitive without whiffing I suggest playing Axl or Potemkin in guilty gear. There is no whiffing for meter in guilty gear and both are competitive with faster more offensive/mobile characters. Hell potemkin is top-tier in Accent-core and he doesnt need to whiff anything. If you design it to be balanced then whatever system you choose will work. Its more about what do we want, and I personally hate watching characters running away to whiff for meter. Maybe you disagree but I think its boring, horrible to watch, and slows down otherwise exciting games.

Like someone else said if you want one character to be built around a runaway-charge up kind of play style do that, but dont make it something the whole cast has to do.

[No D]

wiff punish
?

[Kamui]

Stupid features are stupid features. Features that encourage people to not fight, to not interact with each other in *any* way, are stupid features in what is supposed to be an interactive 1 vs 1 game.


I'm not sure this argument works. Street Fighter is a game based on strategic combat, not only IN YOUR FACE ALL THE TIME fighting (as fun as that is). That's part of what makes Street Fighter interesting, the other means of indirectly gaining an edge over your enemy. When two military powers are preparing for battle, gaining key resources before your opponent can is obviously an important aspect of winning. You're still doing something to help determine the outcome of the interaction. The opposing player can even take measures to stop the resource building, initiating a necessary interaction.

With that said, I understand that many of the extreme cases of meter building can be pretty stupid, but in no way has this ever ruined games to the extent that everyone here says it does. This problem largely revolves around overpowered meter uses like Custom or Super Combos, not the means of gaining meter. Custom combos in A3 would be no less dominant if whiffing throws to gain meter hadn't been there. The same goes for Chun-li's SA2 in 3rd Strike, she still dominates the ground before she has meter.

As Gunter has mentioned, I would argue that weaker characters have a harder time competing with stronger characters when they can't whiff attacks to gain meter. A lot of low tier characters are really meter dependent and have no means of winning without it. Since of those characters usually have a hard time mounting an offense without meter, not being able to quickly build meter without actively attacking really hurts them. The better character can simply initiate their superior offense and gain the meter they want anyways, changing nothing.

Take for example Remy Vs. Chun-Li. In no way does he have a single effective option against Chun-Li's ground game without meter. His normal projectiles are hardly an option because of the myriad of ways she can nullify them (Parry, jump, crouching MK under high projectiles, standing HK or UOH over low projectiles). Even when she isn't sitting on SA2, standing HP and B + HP completely dominate Remy's ground options. To compete, he absolutely must rely on EX Light of Virtues. Without being able to whiff attacks to gain meter, Remy can't gain access to this option fast enough for it to make a difference. In a game without the ability to whiff moves to gain meter, Chun-li can walk all over him with her basic ground game and gain meter before he does by simply being aggressive.

The same goes for A3 Dan. His strong Variable Combo gives him his only option to compete. Without being able to run away and build meter, his only option is to somehow stage an offensive with his terrible attack options to build meter. This is obviously not really a viable option at all, making it impossible for him to win without being able to build meter from afar. Even if stronger characters can do the same, Dan being able to sit on a VC allows him to bait and counter activate against an opposing activation. This same plan works for other bad characters, like Juni and Juli.

To be fair though, this argument doesn't always fly. All characters fighting against Hugo benefit greatly from running away and building meter, but Hugo doing the same won't really help him out much (they'll gain meter before he does, while also getting a far more useful Super Art). That has always been a weakness for most heavy weight characters though. In regards to the Chun-li example above, some characters have a fighting chance against her ONLY when she doesn't have meter, regardless whether they're packing a super or not.

The point is, allowing whiffed normals to gain meter isn't always a bad thing. To say that it's strictly a problem is false. Some characters need its benefit, while others gain too much from it. This goes for ANY system in a fighting game though. In few ways is whiffing moves to build meter actually a problem.

[Keits]

No one is saying it ruins games, smarty pants. We are saying that its stupid and we dont like it, and that we want to new game to not have this.

Why are those of you on the 'wiffing for meter is okay' side of the 'arguement' insist that those of us who do not like it consider it game ruining or some stupid crap you all put into our mouths?

You can argue all you want about how NOT having this would effect existing games... but no one on the 'elimate wiffing' side even cares about that. We just want the new game build without it.

[Pimp Willy]

Arguing that a mechanic needs to be changed because it's not visually pleasing is the worst possible argument.

You need good reason to CHANGE the status quo. Changing a system just to "try something new" isn't a good idea for a game with so much history behind it, and so much riding on its success.

[Spinning Beat]

1. Hit your opponent
2. get hit
3. Block an attack
4. Do a special move

Ferrealz

All of that doesnt have the safety of whiffing pokes. :(

I dont whiff all day, I'm an action kind of guy. But I dont mind the safety of whiffing pokes. I do it so I can get EX joudan when I do my denjin in 3s sometimes.

[ElderGOD]

I still don't think whiffing for meter should be removed, just nerfed.

I do agree that watching a match where people just whiff is boring, and since it's SF4 we do need something different.

They should make it look cool like in Capcom vs Snk 1 where you could charge meter with aura around you.

[furix]

I say do away with whiffing for meter, that includes whiffing specials(KoFXI, Gato, Kula...)

Like in KoFXI Gato and Kula could whiff their specials since they were fast and safe to build meter fast. So, whiffing specials could be a bad thing too.. At least projectiles didn't build meter, thankfully.

Whiffing for meter is really unfair, as some characters obviously gain a bigger edge due to this than others. However, gaining a HUGE amount of meter while attacking/doing a combo is a good idea.

Of course, they'd also need to restrict the meter gain on doing a combo, for example if the combo used a super or an EX move, after that you will gain less meter as you do the combo, this is in order to not allow any sort of infinite or loop, that is if they don't restrict the juggle (think, Yun in SF3:NG).

I think it would work fine, no meter for whiffing, lots of meter for attacking(rewarding the player for keeping some good pressure).

Or, they could still let you gain meter for whiffing, but that meter will be very minimal... Very very minimal.

[Kamui]

"it's stupid" doesn't translate into an argument in any forum, whether it's online or in person. You've just eliminated any reason for this thread to even exist.

No one is saying it ruins games, smarty pants. We are saying that its stupid and we dont like it, and that we want to new game to not have this.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Arguing that a mechanic needs to be changed because it's not visually pleasing is the worst possible argument.

You need good reason to CHANGE the status quo. Changing a system just to "try something new" isn't a good idea for a game with so much history behind it, and so much riding on its success.The fact that its a new game is all the reason in the world to change the status quo.

[FMJaguar]

The only problem anyone seems to post is the extreme case, where someone runs away and whiffs moves to build meter.

Has anyone complained about whiffing 2 s.strongs over a downed opponent? Whiffing moves in to bait a reaction from the opponent? Cancelling a c.rh into a special (the special whiffs). There are a lot of situations where moves will be whiffed for good reason, but the extreme case is directing the discussion.

If we can remove the case where the characters are obviously running away and building meter, but keep all the other cases, is everyone satisfied?

[Master Chibi]

I'd rather that whiffing normals / specials don't build meter at all, in any way, shape, or form. Simple as that. If other characters suck because of it, well then fix them somehow.

:\

[Henaki]

I'd rather that whiffing normals / specials don't build meter at all, in any way, shape, or form. Simple as that. If other characters suck because of it, well then fix them somehow.

:\

Why?

If the problems associated with whiffing meter are removed, why remove something that is basically a tactical advantage in some cases?

[ElderGOD]

Chibi, why don't you like whiffing so much? Give me some examples.

This isn't like storm in mvc2.

Like I said before, Yun can be fixed by making his bar 4 times longer. Ken and Chun can also have their bar increased in length and/or decrease max stocks.

Also can nerf whiff.

I don't see a need to completely remove it as it adds more depth to the game.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I think his issue is that it kjind of adds less strategic depth by giving you an easy way to get super.

[Kamui]

I don't see how that argument works. Characters will end up being bad regardless of the efforts of designers and programmers. There's no reason to remove something that could possibly help an oversight in character design for flaky reasons.

Examine the examples where whiffing moves to get meter is good. In very few situations would removing it actually make a big difference. 3s Chun-li and Yun would still be top tier and horribly annoying to play against and the same Marvel characters would still be good. The weaker characters would however then be forced to attack in situations where they absolutely shouldn't simply because they have no other means of building meter. In what way does this help anything?

I'd rather that whiffing normals / specials don't build meter at all, in any way, shape, or form. Simple as that. If other characters suck because of it, well then fix them somehow.

:\

[Master Chibi]

Because it's INEVITABLE man, when this type of annoyance (I'll acknowledge it not really being a problem) comes about when the game is meter dependant. I can't help but be paranoid about it because it's been around since A3, so I'd rather eliminate the means all together then to just allow it to be in another game. If some character suck without it, give them more to work with then. If some are too good from it, give them less to work it, find some mangeable middle ground.

GG is like the perfect example, that game is heavily meter dependant yet almost none of it ever gets used for 'supers' really. Being that the most defensive measure you'll use meter for in a Capcom game is an alpha counter, well you still got plenty of meter to whore out and to be easily be built up again.

:P

[margalis]

1. Whiffing attacks isn't aesthetically pleasing.

Throw this argument out the window. This is a versus game. The object is to win, not to make it aesthetically pleasing for the opponent, the audience, or whoever.


Some of you people seem very very confused. The object when making a game is not "to win", that's the object when *playing* the game. When *making* a game the object is very much to make the game pleasing to the audience.

Yes, if whiffing for meter is in the game you should abuse it. That's why it shouldn't be in the game.

Nobody here is saying "you shouldn't whiff to build meter." They are saying "you shouldn't be ABLE to whiff to build meter." Huge difference.

[Kamui]

It is in fact possible to argue that it adds depth, albeit very little. Gaining meter in any other manner is done by defending and attacking, which you would do normally regardless of whether or not the meter is there. Removing the ability to gain meter by whiffing moves doesn't add anything to the game, it instead takes away a viable option for some characters. The idea that a character has the option to build resources when the opposing player is afraid to attack is interesting, regardless of how stupid you think it is. It's cool that aggressive close range characters exist, it's cool that some characters are focused on mid-range foot games, it's cool some characters fight strictly from a distance, and it's cool some characters run away and focus on fighting indirectly. These archetypes make Street Fighter interesting.

I'm not arguing that it doesn't get stupid at times, it does, but so do the hit boxes on some normal attacks, the amount of damage a combo does, the crazy dive kick a character has, or that one super attack that deals way too much damage. There are good reasons for keeping it around, and those reasons should be analyzed.

I think his issue is that it kjind of adds less strategic depth by giving you an easy way to get super.

[Kamui]

Again, characters will end up being bad regardless of any attempts on the designer's side to make them workable. This is not something that can simply be fixed, nor should it be. Patch-able games become a mess as whiners have too much power over what gets changed. If a player using a bad character has to fight a difficult match, where it's a bad idea to attack, in no way should they be forced to attack just to build meter (like in Guilty Gear). They need other options to win, and meter building in this manner has been a decent safety measure that allows them to handle that situation.

Because it's INEVITABLE man, when this type of annoyance (I'll acknowledge it not really being a problem) comes about when the game is meter dependant. I can't help but be paranoid about it because it's been around since A3, so I'd rather eliminate the means all together then to just allow it to be in another game. If some character suck without it, give them more to work with then. If some are too good from it, give them less to work it, find some mangeable middle ground.

GG is like the perfect example, that game is heavily meter dependant yet almost none of it ever gets used for 'supers' really. Being that the most defensive measure you'll use meter for in a Capcom game is an alpha counter, well you still got plenty of meter to whore out and to be easily be built up again.

:P

[ORV]

There will be a drastic decrease in the amount of super moves per match.

[Master Chibi]

So let them be bad and not whiff meter, damn. I just don't want it in there because the BETTER characters end up benefiting from it more then the WORSE characters actually needing it.

And yes, I realize that's been the case since it's ever been around, I still don't want in in there.

[shatterstar]

If we can remove the case where the characters are obviously running away and building meter, but keep all the other cases, is everyone satisfied?
never.

fanboys are NEVER satisfied.

[AudioCG]

Arguing that a mechanic needs to be changed because it's not visually pleasing is the worst possible argument.

You need good reason to CHANGE the status quo. Changing a system just to "try something new" isn't a good idea for a game with so much history behind it, and so much riding on its success.

#1 Seeing as videogames are a visual entertainment medium (Hence "Video" in the namesake) Esthetics are ALWAYS important in a game, whether it be in the artistic direction, or just the amount of pixles used, or the techniqes employed in the visual effects they all carry a GREAT wieght in a games success.

#2 Many would argue that relying too much on "Status Quo" can cause games/movies/music to stagnate and fade away. Not to say that there isnt a very good place for maintaining the spirit of said merchandise, just pointing out that "Change" is not exactly a bad thing. (For example: there used to be no meter to "Whiff" for, so they CHANGED SF to have super meters, then they CHANGED the game again to include more in deph super bar systems that made explioting the wiff factor to build meter into a vailid tactic.) I dont know if they had "Good" reasons for doing these things, or if they just kind of developed organically over the course of changing the games for newer installments.

#3 To be honest, SF4 could totally flop and Capcom would still make a bagillion bucks next year. Not to say SF4 will flop, or that Capcom does not care, far from it. Just pointing out that sadly, fighting games have fallen into the niche catagory of games the last few years. (I am deeply dissapointed by this fact, but I belive it is a fact none the less.... :wasted: )

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Again, characters will end up being bad regardless of any attempts on the designer's side to make them workable. This is not something that can simply be fixed, nor should it be. Patch-able games become a mess as whiners have too much power over what gets changed. If a player using a bad character has to fight a difficult match, where it's a bad idea to attack, in no way should they be forced to attack just to build meter (like in Guilty Gear). They need other options to win, and meter building in this manner has been a decent safety measure that allows them to handle that situation.

I dont remember exactly but isn't Geif a really good SSFII Character where no meter exists? I dont remember exactly.

How about actually trying to make a good grappler or something. Or when you go to balance the game in a update make real balaces that bring the cast closer together....ot Farther apart. I mean Sean going from Top Tier SI to bottom tier 3S doesn't make much sense does it?

I mean truly intelegent balance work for once? If ArcSys can do it with GG i don't see why Capcom can't do it with SF4. Anybody remember how messed up Guilty Gear 1 was or hell even GGX...The tiers are pretty damn close these days due to inteligent balance work how about we try that for once with SF?

[Keits]

So let them be bad and not whiff meter, damn. I just don't want it in there because the BETTER characters end up benefiting from it more then the WORSE characters actually needing it.

And yes, I realize that's been the case since it's ever been around, I still don't want in in there.

A-men.

If you want to run away and build meter in a new game, so that it can be just at meter centric as the last 10 years worth of games, good for you. You'll probably still have a way of doing it without wiffing normals for bar.

And yes, strong characters benefit more than weaker ones get aided by this mechanic.

[Kamui]

But that isn't the case. As I've explained with examples, the stronger characters would stay about the same, while the weaker characters only get worse. Again, taking this feature away WOULD NOT stop Chun-li or Yun in 3s from being obnoxious to play against. The stronger characters usually have an inherently stronger offense than weaker characters, making it easier for them to build meter under those circumstances. Yun for example easily has the most flexible offense in 3rd Strike, save for the damage output. He can easily earn the meter he needs. Nothing would change, the stronger characters would still dominate like they always did.

A-men.

If you want to run away and build meter in a new game, so that it can be just at meter centric as the last 10 years worth of games, good for you. You'll probably still have a way of doing it without wiffing normals for bar.

And yes, strong characters benefit more than weaker ones get aided by this mechanic.

[Keits]

Im sure they WOULD. I'm not talking about past games though. You cant seem to stop doing so. Im telling you, again, that in the next street fighter, I think this stupid, boring mechanic should be thrown out in favor of more unique systems in which characters deal with their own weaknesses.

Shut up about how this would effect existing games.

[Kamui]

It's called providing examples, which is more than you've done for your argument. Past games are better for that since they existed, not some fantasy game where bad match ups and tiers don't exist. SF4 will not be that game by the way.

Im sure they WOULD. I'm not talking about past games though. You cant seem to stop doing so. Im telling you, again, that in the next street fighter, I think this stupid, boring mechanic should be thrown out in favor of more unique systems in which characters deal with their own weaknesses.

Shut up about how this would effect existing games.

[Henaki]

Yuns natural offense isn't THAT good, in fact, he's got a retardedly good run away game which is why building meter is generally beneficial to him. He's got like..... divekicks. That's honestly about it, his throw game is pissy, his natural damage is poor, his best knockdowns are incredibly hard if not impossible to actually land without a punish etc. His command throw is ok at best. He'd be in like Ryu territory without GJ. Chun-Li lends herself a bit better to offense since while she has no runaway game her general gameplay is keep people out with pokes which builds meter if they don't whiff.

[Kamui]

Yun inflicts terrible damage, but his attack options are extremely flexible. He has a verifiable low combo (crouching LK x 2-->QCF + LP), verifiable mid hitting combo (MP, link standing LK-->QCF + LP), and his command throw at the very least has as much range as a lot of kara throws (and leads to about as much damage). All of these options lead to a knockdown and none of them are difficult to perform. Considering the attack options most characters have when they don't have meter (many don't even have a safe combo without meter), Yun's offense is fairly strong in comparison. I don't think Yun being forced to be aggressive would stop him from earning the meter he wants, especially since the Genei Jin bar is so small.

The lack of a runaway game that nets more meter does hurt him though. I agree that the overall argument works better with Chun-li.


Yuns natural offense isn't THAT good, in fact, he's got a retardedly good run away game which is why building meter is generally beneficial to him. He's got like..... divekicks. That's honestly about it, his throw game is pissy, his natural damage is poor, his best knockdowns are incredibly hard if not impossible to actually land without a punish etc. His command throw is ok at best.

[FMJaguar]

Because it's INEVITABLE man, when this type of annoyance (I'll acknowledge it not really being a problem) comes about when the game is meter dependant. I can't help but be paranoid about it because it's been around since A3, so I'd rather eliminate the means all together then to just allow it to be in another game.

Your mistaking something you see in the effect, for the actual cause:

- Sometimes it's not advantageous to go attack the opponent, or you don't have a move thats worth attackng with. <--- cause

- Lets stand back and whiff moves since there's nothing else to do <--- effect

You propose removing the whiff option, but you didn't remove the cause of the situation. People will just find the next boring thing to do.

This problem was originally created, ironically enough, by discussions like this. Players didn't understand why fireballs and distance moves were important, but they liked those supers! capcom nerfed everything else and all the good attacks went away, so there isn't too much left to do but build up some meter.

Now people are propose nerfing yet another game mechanic for the same silly reasoning. We should really learn from past mistakes if we expect SF4 to be worth playing.

[Henaki]

having a good mid combo means jack shit (unless your opponent likes to blind down parry and point blank range) his command throw has the same range as a lot of REGULAR throws, slower startup (its not techable so that's its only strength really). characters that lack "safe combos without meter" almost always do as much damage as his 4 hit combos with a single fucking normal. he's honestly got pretty average, low threat rushdown without GJ. the only reason his offense options are even remotely scary is because 1 combo is all it takes for activation, yangs regular offense is better than his, without a super, and hes only upper mid.

and im gonna agree with FMJ on this, whiffing normals was never a problem, people are making it out to be, considering no good explanation as to why its detrimental to the game has been explained, fuck its more entertaining than sitting there because then theres at least some sort of risk reward game going on besides the one of "im over here approach me because i have the advantage" and i'm not talking about deciding to build meter or not (sometimes moves can hurt you even if you whiff pokes holy shit!).

[Humbag]

Id rather see two chuns hitting b+fierce a whole round than two sagats just sitting there (cvs2) for a whole minute not doing anything.

Haha, I hope this thread doesnt get as bad as the parry thread did.

[TrueSephiroth]

Zangief was a good character during SFII when there was No Meter. So the notion of Gief not being good without meter is completely bogus, considering that in SFII:HF, Zangief was a complete wrecking machine in there with c.mk into SPD on block, that shit was madness, not to mention his body cross ups.

So the notion of someone like Zangief needing to whiff meter in order to be good should be completely disgarded. The reason why some characters need meter or whiff for meter, is because the game itself is so dependent upon meter.

When you make it so that normals take off crap and regular supers overall are entirely almost watered down and useless, and making meter the only real form of landing big damage, then yes, whiffing does become essential.

My revoke to that is, make it so that building super specials are not the central core of big damage. Make it so that doing normals and specials become more of the forefront of the game play instead. Or in short, make it so that characters are not heavily dependent upon meter.

This means, that you can develop more upon the tools that are given the character, which I feel the main foundation of the character, and should be the priority. Fighting games can actually work without whiffing for meter, we have clearly seen this before ST/Alpha/III.

[Keits]

Not to mention the ist of non capcom games that no not have wiffing for meter that do not have all the "problems" some of you seem to think taking this out would cause.

im not saying that you shouldnt be able to get meter from full screen. im sayng that wiffing normals for bar is, agan stupid and boring.

guilty gives you meter for walking forward or dashing, for instance.

[Humbag]

Zangief was a wrecker cause tick throws were unbelievably good and his SPD had rediculous range (plus he has good normals to boot). Hugo, for example, has none of that. His 360 has ok range but the tick throws are nothing like in sf2.

[Arsenal]

Fighting games can actually work without whiffing for meter, we have clearly seen this before ST/Alpha/III.

Uh... I'm pretty sure you can whiff stuff in ST to build meter. And although it's not as meter-centric as other games, meter does matter a decent amount.

[TrueSephiroth]

Uh... I'm pretty sure you can whiff stuff in ST to build meter. And although it's not as meter-centric as other games, meter does matter a decent amount.

Umm, that's why I said, "Fighting games can actually work without whiffing for meter, we have clearly seen this Before ST/Alpha/III."

[Arsenal]

Umm, that's why I said, "Fighting games can actually work without whiffing for meter, we have clearly seen this Before ST/Alpha/III."

Haha, mis-read. Sorry. But to bring up a point, although it might've been done pre-ST, does that automatically mean it was better?

[DevilJin 01]

LOL. This one's still alive.

[UltraDavid]

Man, I was watching some Alpha 3 matches today after going quite a while without having played or watched it. That game is retarded when it comes to meter whiffing. Dudes were getting hit out of whiffing and not caring, because hey, if you're V-Sagat and you land a VC, you win the round, without exaggeration. I'm willing to allow that having a character that changes noticeably with and without meter makes for an interesting character design and interesting strategy, but at some point, like with A3 V-ism, it just becomes retarded.

[Slide]

Man, I was watching some Alpha 3 matches today after going quite a while without having played or watched it. That game is retarded when it comes to meter whiffing. Dudes were getting hit out of whiffing and not caring, because hey, if you're V-Sagat and you land a VC, you win the round, without exaggeration. I'm willing to allow that having a character that changes noticeably with and without meter makes for an interesting character design and interesting strategy, but at some point, like with A3 V-ism, it just becomes retarded.

You do know that in alpha 3 it's often times better to just take the stray hit that doesn't combo, instead of blocking it lowing your guard meter. You get meter for whiffing and you get meter for getting hit too, also guard meter is sacred.

Also the further along the clock goes down, Sagat can't easily win the round with the VC, which is why often times you see them opt for resets(which can be escaped) to net faster damage.

If you don't use your meter, your opponent won't either.

Otherwise though, I agree whiffing for meter is crap, and I don't really like supers and super meters at all. I do like guard meters though.

[Kyokuji]

There are a lot of meter mind-games involved with A3. It's not quite as simple as a lot of you are making it out to be. Otherwise any fool who can infinite would be able to place in tourneys, but it doesn't happen.
If you're gonna observe A3, do yourself a favor and watch the Japanese play it. Most people in the states still play it like it was 2001. Infinites aren't even as boring these days because just about everyone has guaranteed reset VCs that they can use.

[Arsenal]

Slide -

Why do you like guard meters? Doesn't it feel as though the game is forcing you to play a certain way? Much like how GG gives you a negative penalty for not being offensive enough, guard meters essentially are doing the same thing; some sort of negative effect for not being offensive.

[DevilJin 01]

There are a lot of meter mind-games involved with A3. It's not quite as simple as a lot of you are making it out to be. Otherwise any fool who can infinite would be able to place in tourneys, but it doesn't happen.
If you're gonna observe A3, do yourself a favor and watch the Japanese play it. Most people in the states still play it like it was 2001. Infinites aren't even as boring these days because just about everyone has guaranteed reset VCs that they can use.

Trickies.

[Slide]

Slide -

Why do you like guard meters? Doesn't it feel as though the game is forcing you to play a certain way? Much like how GG gives you a negative penalty for not being offensive enough, guard meters essentially are doing the same thing; some sort of negative effect for not being offensive.

So defense to you means not attacking?

Just like throws, guard meter forces you to make a decision, whether you're on offense or defense. You can still wait around with guard meter too, it's just that you can't always pick the same avenue of in doing so, because it can be completely stripped from you now. It's not an "always available option" like parry, this can be worked to be taken from you, totally earned etc.

It adds more layers of depth IMO.

Without a guard meter, you see an extremely slow move, you can just block it. Now with a guard meter, you can't always use that option, it's now an option that can be taken away from you.

Fighting games imo are about limiting your opponents options and making more of your own. Making guarantees and certainties.

Guard meter now adds new avenues of approach.

What about characters that have no means of chip damage? How can they work you? Gimmicks? Shenanigans?

Cheap ass guard crushing customs aside(cause those are kind of wack, and i dont like those), whenever you guard meter gets broke they BEAT YOU, you gave it to them, you let them break it.

[Arsenal]

Hmm... interesting point of view. To me, it simply forces me to play a certain style when I might not want to. It forces me to do things I do not wish to, but because of the guard meter, I have to (or something bad/good will happen).

[Jinmaster]

I completely agree with Gunter.

I see no valid points about removing this staple other than some people do not personally like it. As for the "getting something for nothing" argument:

There are inherent risks and rewards for whiffing moves. I think that if someone plays a Valle-Ryu and has you so freaked out about what might hit you, there should be a reward in terms of meter.

If the other character is across the screen doing the same thing, it is in my mind like a taunt (but much safer!). It certainly improves someone's chances of making a comeback as well, which to me is important for exciting matches (see article by Sirlin).

Plus, there is nothing more funny to me than to watch a tournament video and see people boo and cheer over someone spamming something.

I say if you don't like someone whiffing moves, rush that junk down!

Some way of building meter without contact is desireable in my opinion. As Gunter said, we could experiment (change how taunts work or play with other game variations of meter building), but I beleive it's dangerous ground, and I trully think raw-contact-only is definately not the way to go.

I personally enjoy being able to run with some characters I play. It's all again related to the space game, which I would like to see protected in SF4.

Of course, with how little we know, there may not be any meters in SF4 =P

[Slide]

Hmm... interesting point of view. To me, it simply forces me to play a certain style when I might not want to. It forces me to do things I do not wish to, but because of the guard meter, I have to (or something bad/good will happen).

I see where you're coming from, but to me that's what I like about it.

Forcing you to do things you don't wish to?

Do you agree that that's moreso a part of getting beat, than it is losing?

You can lose by messing up combos, missing parries, or making the wrong decisions, but you get beat when all your options get stripped away. All your pieces are captured. You don't have anymore of those turns left. You ran out of items. etc.

[FOBio]

so.... guard meter and alpha counters? is this the thing most people seem to agree upon?

[Arsenal]

I see where you're coming from, but to me that's what I like about it.

Forcing you to do things you don't wish to?

Do you agree that that's moreso a part of getting beat,