Please eliminate WHIFFING POKES TO BUILD METER. [Archive]

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:02 PM

Please, for the love of god, that shit has been fucking up (somewhat) Capcom's titles for too good damn long.

Whiff throws for meter in Alpha.

Whiff everything possible with Storm then land a random hit into Sentinel in Marvel.

Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.

Whiff random shit into custom combos in CvS2 (yay BISON).

I can tolerate parries (somewhat), and the game having to go through 10 revisions (somewhat) but for the love of whatever god you follow (or don't) just don't let your character build meter by just whiffing shit.

Please.

Statistics

10-17-2007, 04:04 PM

Truthiness.

Zandwich

10-17-2007, 04:05 PM

i refuse, srry

evilj

10-17-2007, 04:06 PM

Somewhat agree,

Like I said in the parry thread,

Eliminate or discourage build meter land super playstyle. Supers should be an afterthought like in ST. This idea might help.

SNAAAAKE

10-17-2007, 04:06 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter then ? id say keep it but slow it down or some shit..like you dont get enough by turtling and mashing random buttons.

10x

10-17-2007, 04:07 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter than ? id say keep it but slow it down or some shit...Attacking your opponent?

Pinion

10-17-2007, 04:07 PM

um..how else you wanna build meter than ? id say keep it but slow it down or some shit...

I'm guessing in a way similiar to the Guilty Gear series? Meter is only granted through offensive actions.

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:08 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter than ? id say keep it but slow it down or some shit...

No, there has to be no depenancy on that to build meter.

You could, you know, GO ATTACK THE OTHER GUY to build meter.

Or KEEP HIM FROM ATTACKING YOU.

Something that involves actually hitting your opponent or the opponent hitting you.

That seems to work.

Humbag

10-17-2007, 04:09 PM

I dont have any problem with wiffing to build meter. It at least gives you a benifit of some meter when zoning.

Aion

10-17-2007, 04:11 PM

Edited because of scrubs.

JackHound214D

10-17-2007, 04:11 PM

Attacking your opponent?

No, there has to be no depenancy on that to build meter.

You could, you know, GO ATTACK THE OTHER GUY to build meter.

Or KEEP HIM FROM ATTACKING YOU.

Something that involves actually hitting your opponent or the opponent hitting you.

That seems to work.

Thank you!

When my friend introduced me to 3s and was meter whiffing, I sat there going "Wtf is that?"

I mean, I am not a hard core complainer about it, but it's weird as shit.

The Furious One

10-17-2007, 04:11 PM

I agree!!

Aztec Warrior

10-17-2007, 04:12 PM

I absolutely agree!

woof

10-17-2007, 04:12 PM

whiff specialz instead......

polarity

10-17-2007, 04:12 PM

I dont have any problem with wiffing to build meter. It at least gives you a benifit of some meter when zoning.

how are you not at least getting attacks blocked while zoning

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:12 PM

I dont have any problem with wiffing to build meter. It at least gives you a benifit of some meter when zoning.

Whiffing attacks to zone is fine, you're setting shit up that way.

But being all the way on the other fucking side of the screen or running away to build more meter (instead of say turtling) is just stupid and needs to be completely done away with.

YellowS4

10-17-2007, 04:14 PM

Imagine if MVC2 was like that...

Humbag

10-17-2007, 04:15 PM

It is not like its a broken tactic or anything so i dono why it bothers you all so much.

How about take out Genie-Jin or Chun SA2?

ArcadeFire

10-17-2007, 04:16 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter than?

1. Hit your opponent
2. get hit
3. Block an attack
4. Do a special move

Ferrealz

woof

10-17-2007, 04:19 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter than?
lmfao

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:20 PM

It is not like its a broken tactic or anything so i dono why it bothers you all so much.

Because it degenerates certain parts of the game, that's why.

I mean it would be one thing if Storm needed to run away from a certain character, but to be able to ontop of the screen where almost 99% of the cast can't touch her (ie past the top of the screen) and to get meter for it and then to land a fucking air combo and then go direclty Sent from that?

Or how about jumping onto a Bison in CvS2 whiffing for meter? LOL, Scissor kick into CC, roll cancel Psycho crusher, jump up FP into CC, repeat.

Shit is mad stupid. No it's not broken, but now that we've been given an opportunity, let's do away with it and see how things turn out.

FMJaguar

10-17-2007, 04:22 PM

I think we need to eliminate "whiff the same move 100 times from across the screen", but that can be done a lot of ways other than never giving meter for any whiffed normal.

SNAAAAKE

10-17-2007, 04:24 PM

It is not like its a broken tactic or anything so i dono why it bothers you all so much.

exactly...I mean its just part of the game...

although I wouldnt want it to be like cvs2(especially A) meter building system. that shit is ridiculous..EVERYONE turtles all day just to build meter...:lol:

I think we need to eliminate "whiff the same move 100 times from across the screen", but that can be done a lot of ways other than never giving meter for any whiffed normal.

hey that can work. like you dont get meter for mashing the same button more than 2x or something.

SOL Bandit

10-17-2007, 04:24 PM

if you couldn't build up your meter with whiffs, would the match between Justin and Daigo with the insane parry have been so awesome?

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:24 PM

I think we need to eliminate "whiff the same move 100 times from across the screen", but that can be done a lot of ways other than never giving meter for any whiffed normal.

I suppose, but then I get the notion that it'll be based on distance, and somehow we'll find away around it.

I'd just like to get rid of the notion all together, to eliminate whatever dependancy could be derived from it.

fishjie

10-17-2007, 04:24 PM

if that were removed from mvc2, the game would become incredibly boring

thank god thats not the case

Sasmasta

10-17-2007, 04:25 PM

System Direction in 3S allows you turn whiffing off [I believe].

But I know your not talking about games already created.

I do agree with ArcadeFire's list though. :tup:

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:26 PM

if that were removed from mvc2, the game would become incredibly boring

thank god thats not the case

Right, that's fine, it works in MvC2.

(I suppose I shouldn't have put Storm up as an example really).

Let's just keep it out of traditional games then.

;3

StuartHayden

10-17-2007, 04:26 PM

Well, either wiff normals (games mentioned) or whiff special moves (ST game play and RC electric come to mind)

-SH

evilj

10-17-2007, 04:26 PM

if you couldn't build up your meter with whiffs, would the match between Justin and Daigo with the insane parry have been so awesome?

if the parry still happened, why wouldn't it be awesome?

ObsidianZ

10-17-2007, 04:27 PM

if you couldn't build up your meter with whiffs, would the match between Justin and Daigo with the insane parry have been so awesome?

Arguably, yes.

They'd have to get in and dirty to build meter, which adds tension when they were both low on health. True skill comes out in that situation, not just wiff > super for chip kill.

*ObZ

albert_c

10-17-2007, 04:35 PM

Whiffing to build meter is the gayest shit ever.

Jorant

10-17-2007, 04:39 PM

This is bound to blow your fucking minds, but.... what if there isn't any meter in this game at all? It's a new game, afterall. Would that be so bad?

SOL Bandit

10-17-2007, 04:41 PM

if the parry still happened, why wouldn't it be awesome?

I think it's in the eye of the beholder. If you think about it, you realize hes in the corner trying to build up his meter, then he unleashes a special, its kinda like: take that bastard...during the parry...It just adds insult to injury. However if it occurred without the meter it would have still been freakin sweet.

ObsidianZ

10-17-2007, 04:48 PM

This is bound to blow your fucking minds, but.... what if there isn't any meter in this game at all? It's a new game, afterall. Would that be so bad?

And instead have a stock system?

Something like, begin with 4 stock each round, Supers either take off 2 or 3 stock, "Special Supers" like SGS use up all 4, and maybe, Roman-Cancel type cancelling or parrying uses up one stock?

That...That would be pretty cool.

If they balanced it correctly, of course. The ability to super right off the bat might be cheap. Kara SGS barely 2 seconds into the match? :rofl: But Alpha's and MVC's both had super bar at the beginning of a match...

*ObZ

StuartHayden

10-17-2007, 04:50 PM

Whiffing to build meter is the gayest shit ever.

Getting hit and jd'ing for life?

-SH

goodm0urning

10-17-2007, 04:53 PM

This is bound to blow your fucking minds, but.... what if there isn't any meter in this game at all? It's a new game, afterall. Would that be so bad?For christ's sake, I was about to say this exact same thing.

Literally. I intended to start it out with "This might blow your minds..." and everything.

Anyway, I would be entirely cool with a meterless SF. In fact, I'd be cool if all universal gameplay elements (super meter, guard bar, alpha counters, whatever) were done with and SF was returned to its roots with all character-specific moves.

This doesn't necessarily mean the end of supers, but it would be like Tekken: they don't depend on meters, and it is not a requirement for every character to have them or for them all to work in a similar fashion.

Anakron

10-17-2007, 04:57 PM

I'm tired of every match in 3S starting off with jumping back, whiffing for 10 seconds straight and then zoning in. It's not really game breaking, but it just kills the experience. Doing chip damage to gain bar worked well for Tournament Fighters. Although 3S and TF are completely different.

Master Chibi

10-17-2007, 04:57 PM

I'd be perfectly fine with a superless / meterless SF.

:3

polarity

10-17-2007, 04:58 PM

I too would like an SF with no meter, but I don't really have a problem with meter if they actually implement it in a fashion that requires strategy to use, like in A2. You had 3 different options that were all really good, so it wasn't just a matter of "do more damage on my combo". That said, two of the options were stupidly overpowered, but they idea was there.

Embryo

10-17-2007, 05:03 PM

JackHound214D

10-17-2007, 05:03 PM

Meterless would be interesting. I like the idea of the 'charges' personally. I don't think superless would be a good thing tho. I like characters supers. I think it is invaluable to have super for characters because it can make a character.

polarity

10-17-2007, 05:05 PM

Well wouldn't that eliminate any progress the series has made thus far. The format of the original SF2 is a classic but it would certainly feel very dated and archaic for a modern game. I think Capcom has to somehow incorperate elements from all of the SF games to produce the best possible product.

dude, "new shit" does not automatically equal "progress"

anyway, for those of you who were talking about meterless SF.... http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?p=382039&posted=1#post382039 come agree with me, seeing as s-kill told us to ;)

Atomic #

10-17-2007, 05:06 PM

The thing is, many people here grew up on SFII and were used to "meterless / superless" SFII and hell even I wouldn't mind it either...

However...

This game also HAS to make money, and the last time I checked, many of the newer fighting games that attracted the new blood have some sort of meter building = supers implemented...

So to attract newer generation players, I think they would have to stick with their meter system, aka whiffing to build-up because it was used in CVS2, MVC2, 3S, and etc.

They could do a "negative penalty" concept like GGXX but I doubt it.

Embryo

10-17-2007, 05:06 PM

Superless SF, nah thats like going back to VSH after DVD....the transition would be to harsh. Besides they r releasing SF2HD with redrawn sprites so there would be no point to"go back to basics".

polarity

10-17-2007, 05:10 PM

kmasera

10-17-2007, 05:12 PM

lol, who the fuck plays new 2d fighters?

people who like parrying and dial-a-combos

Atomic #

10-17-2007, 05:18 PM

Lol then why the fuck would Capcom make SF4? Just for the hell of it? No, they know it would make profit along with what should be the pinnacle of the fighting game genre... They have to pay the developers and artists too, and even if they did make it a 3d game, their 3d games have supers as well (EX, and Project Justice).

What I am implying that they very rarely deviated from their systems... The only deviation had to be from gameplay options, like Parrying for third strike, or rolling in CVS series or Super jumping to the heights of the empire state building in MVC; but their concept of Super building / meter remained pretty much the same over the years with little change (probably the name and graphics)

So what incentive would Capcom have to take out a meter / super? To appease SRK? And even that concept is split because some people prefer a super over others....

goodm0urning

10-17-2007, 05:22 PM

So what incentive would Capcom have to take out a meter / super? To appease SRK? And even that concept is split because some people prefer a super over others....What incentive do they have to keep it? Tradition is the stupidest reason to stick to anything.

Shungokustasu

10-17-2007, 05:23 PM

Atomic #

10-17-2007, 05:26 PM

Thats true too, though if none of the popular SF characters were not in the game because its traditional for them to be in a SF game, would people hate it or love it?

Keits

10-17-2007, 05:26 PM

um..how do you wanna build meter then ? id say keep it but slow it down or some shit..like you dont get enough by turtling and mashing random buttons.

LOL! Nice work. :confused: :rofl: :sweat: :annoy: :wasted:

UltraDavid

10-17-2007, 05:28 PM

I'm all for lessening the role of supers and building meter, but there are lots of ways to do that and I'm not sure which is the best.

Slide

10-17-2007, 05:28 PM

What about "negative penalties" like Guilty Gear? You can't keep doing that shit now, cause you're not advancing so the meter will drop.

To be honest I wouldn't mind a Faultless Defense or Burst equivalent either, if the game is going to have Custom Combo(character or options) of any kind. Which it might, cause just about every Capcom game after 1998 has had this. Custom Combos in every vs game has been broken, the nature of it being able to be molded into the situation makes it break anyway.

I was talking with Ryu1999 about this and he was saying a balance for an "FD" type move would be to take more damage from a throw at that point. So there's your yomi layers.

Lessoning the roles of supers can be made easy if you make the meter be used for a bunch of other equally useful things, aswell.

Doom_Virus_Dragon

10-17-2007, 05:29 PM

I wouldn't mind eliminating whiff pokes just to mix it up and see what happens. If it stays, I wouldn't mind that either.

Mike C

10-17-2007, 05:30 PM

This would eliminate zoning for people who don't have projectiles.

what are you talking about

ArcadeFire

10-17-2007, 05:31 PM

I'd be perfectly fine with a superless / meterless SF.

:3

There was SF1-SSF2

....seriously

polarity

10-17-2007, 05:32 PM

There was SF1-SSF2

....seriously

how is that an argument? is the fact that ST, SFA series and SF3 series an argument against having a meter?

Atomic #

10-17-2007, 05:33 PM

Besides, if someone is whiff poking to build up meter its not like anyone knows how to stop it... They'll come up with some sort of strategy to punish the living crap out of it...:lol: And if both a meter building it wouldn't stop the hype of the match would it?

caliagent#3

10-17-2007, 05:34 PM

Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S

LOL thanks for this chibi

ObsidianZ

10-17-2007, 05:36 PM

Slide

10-17-2007, 05:36 PM

So you want GG, with SF characters?

*ObZ

No you idiot.

comoesa

10-17-2007, 05:38 PM

And easy way to get rid of whiffing for meter is to get rid of it.

Power down supers and make them more about theyre properties than damge they give.

polarity

10-17-2007, 05:40 PM

And easy way to get rid of whiffing for meter is to get rid of it.

Power down supers and make them more about theyre properties than damge they give.

agree 100%. supers just being big-damage moves is retarded, they should actually be there for some strategic reason (and being a good reversal is a lazy one)

The_Trigger

10-17-2007, 05:41 PM

I was about to say the same thing about powering down the damage that supers do. Or just kill supers and keep EX moves. Enhance 'em a bit and nobody will really miss supers. At least I won't.

platinum_pinoy

10-17-2007, 05:41 PM

I agree with removing whiffing to build meter. Either you get lots of meter through by doing a huge combo or there has to be some sort of contact between both players either by blocking, hitting, parrying, etc. Actually, I'd think when certain situations arise, then more meter should be given.

For instance, if someone were to parry, then counter into a big combo, that should be registered on the screen along with the combo count, as in "Parry+Counter+ 8-hit Combo 117pts". With that, meter should be delegated accordingly. The more consecutive parries and the more combo hits, the more meter, as in "5-hit Parry+Counter+ 5-hit Combo 2000pts"

Actually, this might also reduce poking and encourage more offense.

Doom_Virus_Dragon

10-17-2007, 05:44 PM

agree 100%. supers just being big-damage moves is retarded, they should actually be there for some strategic reason (and being a good reversal is a lazy one)

Isn't the threat of it part of the strategy though? Forcing your opponent to play somewhat more cautiously and really execute well or get punished?

EveryFlowerFlow

10-17-2007, 05:45 PM

Jaldaboath

10-17-2007, 05:46 PM

I'm guessing in a way similiar to the Guilty Gear series? Meter is only granted through offensive actions.

I liked this one, but adding metter for running forward was a bit too much.

ObsidianZ

10-17-2007, 05:48 PM

No you idiot.

Let me see...

You want a SF with Negative Penalty, FD, Burst, and meter used not for supers (RC, FRC, FB).

Yep.

*ObZ

The_Trigger

10-17-2007, 05:49 PM

Isn't the threat of it part of the strategy though? Forcing your opponent to play somewhat more cautiously and really execute well or get punished?

It is, but nobody wants to beast on somebody for most of the round and end up guessing wrong once and losing 60% life and the match.

Tigerboi

10-17-2007, 05:50 PM

You know what needs to be gone?

For good?

....Custom combos. V-ism, a-groove, genei-jin, all the crap needs to go. It completely dominates every game it's in. I'm just sick of it.

Whiffing to build meter could go and be cool.
but I have a feeling I'll miss al those I chose to run away to build meter when I was losing in the past.

....

but then when you take storm into account, I really want it gone.

polarity

10-17-2007, 05:51 PM

Isn't the threat of it part of the strategy though? Forcing your opponent to play somewhat more cautiously and really execute well or get punished?

i dont really see changing the relative worth of your guessing game pieces as strategy

Slide

10-17-2007, 05:52 PM

I don't think GG-esque negative penalties would work because SF moves at a slower pace in terms of covering the screen (doesn't have airdashes, run etc.) So you might get penalized for "running away" even if you weren't.

Also SF has some characters that are built for turtling/running away/ "stick n' move" characters like vega or turtle q. I think maybe if you spam normals x amount of times a penalty should come in. Or they should greatly reduce the amount gauge you get.

Good point.

It was just an idea I was throwing out there.

About Pushblock/FaultlessD etc, how many games has capcom come out with that puts people into those chipped situations where you can't escape and can be "randomly" started. Well if you waste meter on a pushblock that will also make you waste a chance to use a super cause you wont have enough meter for it. Sometimes alpha counters just aren't enough or don't work at all even when used in the situation.

And on the burst thing, it's just a game break prevention, even if it's just a once a match thing. It could just be a move you have once the entire match and that's that(even limited to a "fighting style"/groove/ism =\). And that could also waste super meter so supers aren't always spammed.

It's not about GG with SF characters in it, GG has a bunch of game break preventative measures that alot of games could and should use. Like tolerance to juggles with pushbacks after numbers of hits, and damage proration.

goodm0urning

10-17-2007, 05:53 PM

Isn't the threat of it part of the strategy though? Forcing your opponent to play somewhat more cautiously and really execute well or get punished?In the games that supers are in, yes. That has nothing to do with SF4.

Gutter Trash

10-17-2007, 05:54 PM

since whiffing benefits the faster characters than slower characters: I want whiffing normals to not build Super meters.

(Specials are okay to whiff though)

Doom_Virus_Dragon

10-17-2007, 05:54 PM

It is, but nobody wants to beast on somebody for most of the round and end up guessing wrong once and losing 60% life and the match.

That's a good point. Though, maybe if you can tweak the damage output depending on the status of health, but that's getting into something else now. :sweat:

UltraDavid

10-17-2007, 05:54 PM

Isn't the threat of it part of the strategy though? Forcing your opponent to play somewhat more cautiously and really execute well or get punished?
Sure it's part of the strategy, but the point is that there's no reason to have it so powerful. In some games it dominates the action, to the exclusion of most other things, and that's pretty dumb. And besides, if supers are still the most individually damaging things even where they do 1/5 max of life, you can still use them to force your opponent to play differently.

Radiantsilvergun3

10-17-2007, 05:58 PM

margalis

10-17-2007, 06:24 PM

N_paul

10-17-2007, 06:25 PM

What if after about 5 seconds of not doing action your meter starts to drain. Kinda like Neg penatly in GG only it would actually be able to happen.

I don't like the whiffing normals either by the way. What about whiffed specials thoguh?

platinum_pinoy

10-17-2007, 06:27 PM

Hmm, meter should probably rewarded in a relation to how much damage you have done, as opposed to how big of a combo someone can do. My friend made a good point that not everyone can do combos, so Strong/Slow characters get the shaft with meter building.

Radiantsilvergun3

10-17-2007, 06:32 PM

spudlyff8fan

10-17-2007, 06:42 PM

Maybe we should know wtf the game engine is before we start to say what should or shouldn't build meter?

Deathscythe

10-17-2007, 06:48 PM

Maybe we should know wtf the game engine is before we start to say what should or shouldn't build meter?

Maybe you should STFU and go back into hibernation? You do realize that EVERY Capcom game has had that loophole with the exception of ST, right? Granted, we all adapt to it, but still........we don't need EVERY game playing out the same way at high level.

A3 - Whiff grab
CvS2 - A-groove
3S - c.strong or c.forward
MvC1 - Strider/WM/GWM
MvC2 - HAH! AH! HAH! AH! *BLAM!* *BLAM!*

A2 and ST are the two best uses of meter I've ever seen in a Capcom game.

kesh!

10-17-2007, 06:48 PM

uhhhh, I don't agree with OP one bit.

But what the hell do I know, I enjoy flashy combos, showing you have balls (parrying) to change the flow of battle and whiffing to start every match because its a simple...whos gonna make the first move?

Radiantsilvergun3

10-17-2007, 06:52 PM

Well if your parrying then clearly the other guy made the first move.

Shin Sho-oh-ken

10-17-2007, 07:00 PM

Yeah i say get rid of Wiffing for Meter on Normals and reducig the damage to Supers would be nice to. Supers not only do Massive damage but they always kock down leavling you with no health and on the defesive from rush down. Getiing knocked dow is bad enough but a loss of 60% health doesnt help things either.

Wtf? Might as well take out supers completely considering fierce and roundhouses do a shitload of damage. Especially if you can combo.

Hatred Edge

10-17-2007, 07:02 PM

They should just decrease the amount of meter gained for whiffing.

CSS

10-17-2007, 07:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXG6resxD4

meter building pls.

arstal

10-17-2007, 07:04 PM

How about a SS style rage gauge then?

spudlyff8fan

10-17-2007, 07:05 PM

Maybe you should STFU and go back into hibernation? You do realize that EVERY Capcom game has had that loophole with the exception of ST, right? Granted, we all adapt to it, but still........we don't need EVERY game playing out the same way at high level.

A3 - Whiff grab
CvS2 - A-groove
3S - c.strong or c.forward
MvC1 - Strider/WM/GWM
MvC2 - HAH! AH! HAH! AH! *BLAM!* *BLAM!*

A2 and ST are the two best uses of meter I've ever seen in a Capcom game.

I think you missed the point...

margalis

10-17-2007, 07:14 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXG6resxD4

meter building pls.

Well played.

ObsidianZ

10-17-2007, 07:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXG6resxD4

meter building pls.

Can you give an example of pros meter building from this or last year?

Not that I'm saying meter building is good. Your example is just dated.

*ObZ

CSS

10-17-2007, 07:36 PM

Can you give an example of pros meter building from this or last year?

Not that I'm saying meter building is good. Your example is just dated.

*ObZ

i'm aware no pro-level players build meter like in the video, i just thought it was humorously related :D

G.O.T

10-17-2007, 08:03 PM

why can't it have customizable options so you can change how you want the system to work. Or will somebody find a way to complain about that too?

Enishi

10-17-2007, 08:33 PM

why can't it have customizable options so you can change how you want the system to work. Or will somebody find a way to complain about that too?

No matter what's done, whiners will always have something to complain about. "Omg how come kens taunt is longer than it was in the last installment!?"
Gimmie a break yo. Customizable options would be pretty cool, but of course someone will complain that one option isnt as good as another and vice versa.
Whiners should be shot. ^_^

True Grave

10-17-2007, 08:37 PM

Imagine if MVC2 was like that...

MVC2 is a totally different kind of game, and thus no comparison for argument here.

Keits

10-17-2007, 08:42 PM

why can't it have customizable options so you can change how you want the system to work. Or will somebody find a way to complain about that too?

This is a bad idea. The game needs a standard set of options so that we dont have tournaments popping up everywhere playing the game totally differently (cough smashbros cough)

10-17-2007, 08:42 PM

For christ's sake, I was about to say this exact same thing.

Literally. I intended to start it out with "This might blow your minds..." and everything.
:rofl: :rofl:
I'm writing a post right now that starts with "I am about to blow your fucking MINDS."

10-17-2007, 08:51 PM

Overworld

10-17-2007, 08:52 PM

No to whiffing building meter. Since I do think it messes with the flow of play.

Yes to supers. I like them, sure they are flashy, and perhaps have unimaginable tactical use, but I've always had a fond place for them.

!WB!

10-17-2007, 09:00 PM

Massive props to Master Chibi for bringing up this topic. I agree 100%, meter building sucks. I've felt that way for a long time.

I really hope SF4 rewards meter building for attacking/outfighting your opponent instead of mashing one button while running the hell away like a bitch.

nf0x

10-17-2007, 09:38 PM

Because the meter concept has proven to be so terrible...

Hellmonkey

10-17-2007, 09:44 PM

Completely agree with thread starter.

Put something in similar to GG where not only are you only rewarded for offensive actions, you are penalized for sitting back and doing nothing. Whiffing moves full screen for meter is absolutely ridiculously dumb.

Dandy J

10-17-2007, 09:45 PM

I agree totally with the OP, but it also says something about the game itself when you can whiff moves from across the screen with no risk or worries about being hit.

chopperbyrne

10-17-2007, 11:19 PM

You should only get meter for good play.

Landing an attack - Meter gained

Having an attack blocked - Half the meter gain of a landed attack.

Parry/Throw tech - Third the meter gain of a landed attack.

Meter should never be gained for a whiffed attack. Meter should never be gained just by doing a special move.

Radiantsilvergun3

10-17-2007, 11:29 PM

Wtf? Might as well take out supers completely considering fierce and roundhouses do a shitload of damage. Especially if you can combo.

They don't do 60% to your meter though. Theres a big diffrence.

Atb_555

10-18-2007, 12:13 AM

Whiffing to build meter fast is gay. I think CvS2 got meter building right.

ObsidianZ

10-18-2007, 12:26 AM

I don't think whiffing is as big a problem as you guys make it out to be...

Unless you're playing some meter-whore scrubs, the only time I see whiffing is during pokes, footsies, and one or 2 quick MP's after a knockdown before oki.

I never see anyone retreat and charge up like that anymore. The reward just isn't enough. Takes like 5 whiffs just to gain any appreciable amount of bar. Much more efficient to build meter through rushdown.

Besides, you should be able to punish meter-chargers easily :).

*ObZ

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 01:44 AM

So this is why Master Chibi plays Melty Blood. :lol:

Master Chibi

10-18-2007, 07:13 AM

So this is why Master Chibi plays Melty Blood. :lol:

I play freaking everything.

:arazz:

PROFESSORLESTER

10-18-2007, 07:40 AM

I'm guessing in a way similiar to the Guilty Gear series? Meter is only granted through offensive actions.

sorry you do by just defence also in gg

fatboy

10-18-2007, 08:52 AM

I personally like the meter system in ST.

UltraDavid

10-18-2007, 09:03 AM

I'm not for having a GG-like penalty on the meter, because I don't want to artificially restrict turtling from being an effective strategy.

I'd be fine with no supers, frankly. That's a good point that many of the most popular games don't have supers, I never really thought about that.

Zazzarius

10-18-2007, 09:13 AM

So you want GG, with SF characters?

*ObZ

maybe i do. :looney:

(cough smashbros cough)

NO DASHING
NO ITEMS
FOX ONLY

FINAL DESTINATION

Nick T.

10-18-2007, 09:16 AM

I agree

or at least tone it down

For example, in cvs2, lights build no meter, and hards build the most.
Instead of doing it by strength, do it by attack.

Have normals build nothing, specials build like 3 points of meter

Everything else builds upon characters touching ala Rumble Fish 2

Trades build depending on attack used, throws build 5 points of meter and give the opponent like 2 points.

etc

Make the points system for attacks more strategically guided then attack/strength guided.

:-)

Slide

10-18-2007, 10:02 AM

Does anyone else also notice that some of the most balanced games have a high damage output?

HuStLeMaN17

10-18-2007, 10:04 AM

I'm not for having a GG-like penalty on the meter, because I don't want to artificially restrict turtling from being an effective strategy.

Agreed, people should be allowed to turtle if they please.

kesh!

10-18-2007, 10:08 AM

I agree totally with the OP, but it also says something about the game itself when you can whiff moves from across the screen with no risk or worries about being hit.

That says nothing about the game, more so about the pressure of the players.

I don't understand how the Tokido v JWong video is any argument for this thread. Both players benefit from whiffing for meter, JWong was doing it because he actually needs to the meter, Tokido did it just to be funny.

Ken v Ken (since 3s is the biggest criminal of this subject) has both kens cr.mp or st. mp building meter. One Ken throws an ex-hadou and gains zone as the other ken parries it down.

If anything, whiffing takes at MOST 15 seconds, with the Tokido v JWong being a prime example.

Plus, whiffing supers give characters like Oro/Q a chance to survive.

edit: without whiffing we'll just move the game to 'who has the best block strings and the shortest meter'.

whiffing also helps keep balance with characters that have different super bar lengths

altergenesis

10-18-2007, 10:16 AM

Supers need to be there.

Without it, how will we know what to do on wakeup? =o

WINBACK

10-18-2007, 10:19 AM

Amen to this thread. Building meter should be an natural outcome of playing to win, not an entirely separate strategy. Managing your meter should not be a game in itself.

Encouraging people to *not fight* is the worst idea in the world.
You know what needs to be gone? For good?

....Custom combos. V-ism, a-groove, genei-jin, all the crap needs to go. It completely dominates every game it's in. I'm just sick of it.
What if after about 5 seconds of not doing action your meter starts to drain. Kinda like Neg penatly in GG only it would actually be able to happen.
Maybe you should STFU and go back into hibernation? You do realize that EVERY Capcom game has had that loophole with the exception of ST, right?
Well if your parrying then clearly the other guy made the first move.
MVC2 is a totally different kind of game, and thus no comparison for argument here.
Whiffing to build meter fast is gay.

Lots of interesting input here.

Last I checked, Tekken/Soul Calibur/DOA/VF(in Japan) etc are some of the most popular 3d fighters, and none of these games have super meters.
What?

Aeonin

10-18-2007, 10:31 AM

Perhaps the meter gained by whiffing pokes should decrease with the amount of times that you do it. So the first five might give you the full increase, but the more and more you do it, the less it gives (until none is given).

That was just the first thing I thought of after reading the OP. Although I liked some of the other ideas as well.

Although I think someone put down a 1/1, 1/2, and 1/3 ratio for building meter. I think blocking and parrying should change there. So 1/1 attacking, 1/2 parrying, and 1/3 successfully blocking an attack string.

Edit: Someone else said to just decrease the amount gained by whiffing. And now that I think about it, maybe that is the best route. I know that sometimes the opposing player needs to gain meter in a tough situation to even out the playing field. I think that they should be able to do it from a distance too, as a defensive measure. So yeah, if someone needs just a few pixels of meter to build, I wouldn't mind it if they retreated for a bit and whiffed a few moves. Just as long as it isn't enough for players to start the match that way. Honestly I'm inbetween on these solutions, there are pros and cons.

SaDo

10-18-2007, 10:46 AM

agreed, no whiffing normals for meter, just takes away from the action.

F.Y.C.N.

10-18-2007, 10:49 AM

im all for this movement

WiggleSuper

10-18-2007, 11:08 AM

hmmmm.... here's a fucking tip.

if someone is wiffing to build meter, punish it. stop them from doing it. obviously you are all a bunch of pansy asses that let people run away, the screen in 3s isnt all that big. rush that shit down and make the little girl your playing against pay!

edit: no offense to actual little girls that play :) lol

ace_uno

10-18-2007, 11:30 AM

What if there was a small window of opportunity to whiff for meter, say after a knockdown. Lets say you DP or do any the attack to someone jumping in on you that will defintely put them in a knockdown state. For the duration they're in the knockdown, which usually isn't very long, you can whiff for meter until they get back to a standing state where they can take action against you. When that happens whiffs stop building meter for you. This probably isn't the best analogy but think of a boxing match when someone scores a knockdown. They go to a corner and have the chance to rest until they're opponent gets up and the ref restarts the fight. The person who gets to rest earned the chance because he outboxed or got a lucky shot in or whatever. Maybe if you do it some way like this, you don't kill the flow of the game by just running off to get meter, you still have to play and earn your chance to get free meter.

orochizoolander

10-18-2007, 01:50 PM

1. Hit your opponent
2. get hit
3. Block an attack
4. Do a special move

Ferrealz

Those should be the only ways to get meter IMO.

I don't mind whiffing to build meter but when it gets to the point where the opponent can do it easily from the other side of the screen without any repercussions *cough 3S* then it gets kinda retarded and detracts from the fun n excitement. I think whiffing to build meter should be included i nSF4 as long as the limit it severely to the point where it can't be abused.

In SVC chaos (yeah i know it's more broken n g** then brokeback mountain) u actually LOSE meter for whiffing throws...just something to think about.

Markudea

10-18-2007, 01:51 PM

How about take out Genie-Jin or Chun SA2?

Yes, I agree... Those two (especially the Genei-Jin) are the worst supers that Capcom ever thought of, yet alone giving them to a character. The only way that'll come to light is if the game is meterless (which I don't think I'll mind). What if they added the Tekken 6 element to SF4 (meaning that the closer your character is to death, stronger they'll become)?

kmasera

10-18-2007, 02:39 PM

What if they added the Tekken 6 element to SF4 (meaning that the closer your character is to death, stronger they'll become)?

are you seriously that dumb?

The Chief

10-18-2007, 02:40 PM

What if the only way to build meter was to land an attack (blocked or not) and or to hold a button after an attack is executed?

That would make negetive edging a much bigger part of game play. If something like this was implemented I would hope the characters wouldn't have the same meter charging animation frames. Maybe the animations could be different for each attack when the button is held...

I don't know. Thinking outside of the box again.

Omski2k4

10-18-2007, 02:47 PM

I'm sure that someone has mentioned it already, but tiering the bar given for constant whiffing ? first few give bar then it stops giving, but then I'm sure someone will make a technique that allows indefinite bar whiffing. I think what's better is the offensive attacks give real bar, and you should be given defensive whiffs, but with frame penalties that reward the other player for waiting for the whiff and raping the other player. So maybe fierces get whiff bar building and jabs and mids get ziltch ?

Marty

10-18-2007, 02:49 PM

I don't mind whiffing to build meter but when it gets to the point where the opponent can do it easily from the other side of the screen without any repercussions *cough 3S* then it gets kinda retarded and detracts from the fun n excitement. I think whiffing to build meter should be included i nSF4 as long as the limit it severely to the point where it can't be abused.

I agree. Although for some of the slower characters, perhaps the larger build is acceptable. 3S Hugo, for example, kinda desperately needed it.

GouShRyuKen

10-18-2007, 03:15 PM

IMO meters should go up when you connect your combos

The Chief

10-18-2007, 03:27 PM

Check out this idea: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4412661&postcount=31

Building meter from holding attack buttons during combos is new (i think) and it could work...

Humbag

10-18-2007, 03:29 PM

bah, no need to make this shit too complicated

The Chief

10-18-2007, 03:43 PM

In fighting game history people have craved for complexity. People always say "yhis game isn't deep enough" or "this game is too simple".

It's not about being complicated, it's about adding depth in a simple way.

Why don't people play DOA? Wait... rewording... Why isn't DOA widely seen as the best game out there? Because people say it's just rock paper scissors with boobs. I.E. Too simple.

Why don't people run and jump on Jojo's or VF4? Too complex with a steep learning curve. I.E. Too complicated.

goodm0urning

10-18-2007, 04:07 PM

are you seriously that dumb?You're the dumb one. Several games already make your character more resilient as the lifebar decreases. It's not much of a stretch to see the same principle applied to your character's strength.

In fighting game history people have craved for complexity. People always say "yhis game isn't deep enough" or "this game is too simple". Bullshit. They don't want a game that's as simple as rock, paper, scissors, but that doesn't mean they want more and more complexity. If it were true, VF4 would sell the most/have the biggest scene/whatever you're judging this shit by.

And VF4 is legitimately complex. You're splitting hairs by claiming it's not complex, but "complicated."

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 05:00 PM

i agree whiffs should not build meter after all i am playing street FIGHTER not street miss attacks on purpose like a blind nigga so I can get some of DAT GENEI JIN FIGHTER

Master Chibi

10-18-2007, 05:02 PM

i agree whiffs should not build meter after all i am playing street FIGHTER not street miss attacks on purpose like a blind nigga so I can get some of DAT GENEI JIN FIGHTER

:rofl:

Too good :lovin:

Son Them All

10-18-2007, 05:14 PM

lolz @ niggas using whiffs as a primary means of building meter. Attack the other person to get your godly supers Genijin, Houyokusen spammers. Jesus.

The Chief

10-18-2007, 05:33 PM

You're the dumb one. Several games already make your character more resilient as the lifebar decreases. It's not much of a stretch to see the same principle applied to your character's strength.

Bullshit. They don't want a game that's as simple as rock, paper, scissors, but that doesn't mean they want more and more complexity. If it were true, VF4 would sell the most/have the biggest scene/whatever you're judging this shit by.

And VF4 is legitimately complex. You're splitting hairs by claiming it's not complex, but "complicated."

All im saying is p, k, p, k, super will be boreing.

The thing about the new generation of competetive players is that they don't want to put in work. They want to pick up a game, pick a strong character thats easy to use and win. Why do you think people complain about not being able to do advanced tactics and using that as an excuse for why they lose?

I'm just hoping that getting good at this game requires some work instead of just the strengh of the character I pick.

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 05:57 PM

lolz @ niggas using whiffs as a primary means of building meter. Attack the other person to get your godly supers Genijin, Houyokusen spammers. Jesus.

You're talking about a shit load of niggas. Nigga. Some of those niggas are Japanese. :lol:

Humbag

10-18-2007, 05:58 PM

I still vouch that wiffing for meter should be one of the LEAST things you should be worrying about.

Think of it as a boxer warming up, he'll throw some warmup punchs to get his blood flowing/power going. Thats how i see it.

So all in all there are other things more important (stupid supers like genei jin and chun sa2 for example).

Projectjustice

10-18-2007, 06:43 PM

I say dont take it out cause I love whiffers, a well timed Super art will always make them think twice about whiffing.

Crap

10-18-2007, 06:53 PM

How about TAKE OUT THE DAMN SUPERS PERIOD!?

THe rotting of the franchise began when Supers were introduced.

goodm0urning

10-18-2007, 07:00 PM

How about TAKE OUT THE DAMN SUPERS PERIOD!?

THe rotting of the franchise began when Supers were introduced.I wouldn't be that harsh, but I think supers--as they are--have pretty much been explored every which way. Removing supers might be a good example of moving forward by going back.

kmasera

10-18-2007, 07:09 PM

i agree whiffs should not build meter after all i am playing street FIGHTER not street miss attacks on purpose like a blind nigga so I can get some of DAT GENEI JIN FIGHTER

best post ever

MOD

10-18-2007, 07:16 PM

You need to whiff something to build meter. Otherwise it destroys aspects of street fighter. It gives every character a defensive aspect. It also gives other characters who are more offensively based a bar advantage.

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 07:22 PM

DarkNecrid has unofficially closed this thread.

kmasera

10-18-2007, 07:23 PM

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 07:26 PM

um yeah, it certainly destroyed aspects of ST didn't it

Yup.

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 08:01 PM

seriously though, I think whiffed attacks would be alright as long as they gave very little meter. Yun being able to do like what..? 5 whiffed attacks maybe and getting a Genei Jin is a peice of crap. A very minor amount I'm alright with, but otherwise no.

Might as well just let you look up and gain some super meter.

Humbag

10-18-2007, 08:10 PM

I bet you are not even good at 3s if ive never heard of you in Illinois, so stop talking like you know anything about 3s.

Sure yun wiffiing into geniejin is fast but it is not broken at all. Its his SUPER thats stupid.

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 08:12 PM

I bet you are not even good at 3s if ive never heard of you in Illinois, so stop talking like you know anything about 3s.

sorry i dont live fucking close to any arcades so I have to play on a console and have disability's that prevent me from going to tournaments

i try my best, k?

Humbag

10-18-2007, 08:15 PM

Crap

10-18-2007, 08:17 PM

I bet you are not even good at 3s if ive never heard of you in Illinois

Post wins for pure ignorance

Humbag

10-18-2007, 08:20 PM

Post wins for pure ignorance

This post wins for pure gayness.

Who the fuck are you anyway? Ohh yeah, another scrub thats who.

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 08:21 PM

then stop talking like you know anything, its that simple.

Im just getting pissed at how so many of you are overlooking at what is OBVIOUSLY wrong (genei jin/chun sa2) and whining about wiffing for super meter.

Im out. This SF4 forum has gone to complete shit.

i know stuff...since when did you have to go to tournaments to know shit? isn't that what the whole point of playing the game, watching tutorial vids, watching competitive vids, and reading SRK Wiki/strat forums are all about?

Anyways...

the whole idea of getting meter for not literally doing anything is kind of dumb though. why do you get rewarded for not hitting anything? yeah genei jin and chun sa2 are obviously pretty awesome but that wasn't the point of this thread at all. even if you got rid of whiffing = super meter gain those 2 supers would still be really fucking good.

i thought this thread was saying "i dont like the concept behind this" and I don't, but if it is in I'd like it to be reallllly toned down on how much meter you gain.

thats all im sayin

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 08:51 PM

i know stuff...since when did you have to go to tournaments to know shit? isn't that what the whole point of playing the game, watching tutorial vids, watching competitive vids, and reading SRK Wiki/strat forums are all about?

Anyways...

the whole idea of getting meter for not literally doing anything is kind of dumb though. why do you get rewarded for not hitting anything? yeah genei jin and chun sa2 are obviously pretty awesome but that wasn't the point of this thread at all. even if you got rid of whiffing = super meter gain those 2 supers would still be really fucking good.

i thought this thread was saying "i dont like the concept behind this" and I don't, but if it is in I'd like it to be reallllly toned down on how much meter you gain.

thats all im sayin

This thread went from being about win to being about fail so quickly.

woof

10-18-2007, 08:51 PM

and reading SRK Wiki/strat forums are all about?
too bad theyre full of shit huh

cant believe people listen to half the shit on there, nobody ever checks on it

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 08:56 PM

too bad theyre full of shit huh

cant believe people listen to half the shit on there, nobody ever checks on it

ssssh i had to mention SRK somewhere in my post

Markudea

10-18-2007, 09:35 PM

are you seriously that dumb?

Why do I have to be dumb for stating a "what if" based on the silly things that they have already added in Street Fighter in the past?

spudlyff8fan

10-18-2007, 09:55 PM

This thread went from being about win to being about fail so quickly.

QFT. Fails across the board. Cept DJ01. And me. I get an A.

masher

10-18-2007, 10:19 PM

how about instead of 50 mp/mk to build up a full meter

just make like 6 of em for a full meter.

funner faster and moar balanceder!

Rioting Soul

10-18-2007, 10:26 PM

Make it so you can only whiff specials for meter. Or no whiffing at all.

DevilJin 01

10-18-2007, 10:31 PM

It's Still Alive!!!

spudlyff8fan

10-18-2007, 10:51 PM

Make it so you can only whiff specials for meter.

::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::
::lie down::
::get up::

KEVIN RIAN BITCHES!

I dunno about you, but that's way more awesome than pressing cMPx40.

kesh!

10-18-2007, 11:09 PM

btw

this thread is essentially saying:

"given that grappling characters will have rather large super meters (due to their damage output), fuck em, lets make them even more low tier"

bull fucking shit, grappling characters need whiffed moves.

fuck this movement

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 11:22 PM

Humbag

10-18-2007, 11:29 PM

DarkNecrid

10-18-2007, 11:37 PM

yes, woulda helped him a lot in reality

In ST it was a rarity to use your 720 and being able to get meter better besides mashing lariets, would help him...also if he had HAMMER MOUNTAIN!!!! Woops, wrong game.

Thats a tough example though, cause ticks in SF2 were too good.

Hugo really needs the meter though and he would be a lot shittier without meter building.

yeah it would of helped him but he did fine without it

Hugo without whiffed moves....

I think Sean might actually be better than someone if that happened!

Enishi

10-18-2007, 11:38 PM

People bitch about the lamest shit. Fuckin Scrubs.

SaBrE

10-18-2007, 11:41 PM

wiffing for meter is garbage. plain and simple. it turns the game into "who can gain the advantage first without having to fight." 3s(even more so with NG and 2i) and especially a3 are guilty of this.

you say a character like hugo would get screwed, you just let him get a lot of meter per hit or 360 to compensate. atleast work still has to be done to get your precious meter, instead of relying your victory solely on meter whoring with an over powered super or custom combo.

either way imo. i dont like getting something for nothing.

and gief builds meter fast in st btw, once he gets in. his problem is that hes very limited on how he can use the meter. it has nothing to do with the meter itself

Leebee Link

10-19-2007, 12:27 AM

Whiffing meter is bad, but using the Chun/Yun example doesn't completely explain it.

Although the fact that their SA's are the center of the problem, whiffing for meter plays into the abuse of those supers and makes them more of a problem.

yes, woulda helped him a lot in reality

In ST it was a rarity to use your 720 and being able to get meter better besides mashing lariets, would help him...also if he had HAMMER MOUNTAIN!!!! Woops, wrong game.

Thats a tough example though, cause ticks in SF2 were too good.

Hugo really needs the meter though and he would be a lot shittier without meter building.

oi humbag you in Normal so you go to ISU then?

we should get some games going sometime

Humbag

10-19-2007, 12:32 AM

I lived in normal but am currently in Champaign/Urbana at UIUC for school.

I travel back and fourth a lot though. (We all post in the midwest threads).

Leebee Link

10-19-2007, 12:41 AM

oh kickass

i completely forgot about the midwest thread

jeez lol

DarkNecrid

10-19-2007, 01:10 AM

I lived in normal but am currently in Champaign/Urbana at UIUC for school.

I travel back and fourth a lot though. (We all post in the midwest threads).

edited out

sleepyguy69

10-19-2007, 05:59 AM

For those that think that whiffing for meter is a case of being rewarded for nothing, you're not understanding the reasoning behind it. Whiffing to build meter gives your opponent information. He knows that you are going to finish that animation before you do anything else, but you don't know what he is going to do. This is trading a small advantage for a small (usually) disadvantage. It's also a fantastic way to force the opponent into action. If you don't attack the man thats whiffing, he's going to get a full bar. This is essential for characters who simply cannot pressure well, and must rely on countering their opponents.

tataki

10-19-2007, 06:43 AM

dude, "new shit" does not automatically equal "progress"

anyway, for those of you who were talking about meterless SF.... http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?p=382039&posted=1#post382039 come agree with me, seeing as s-kill told us to ;)

lol at the 2nd post in the link "WE NEED VOMIT ANIMATIONS"
if the devs will actually try to cater to the forums posters the game is gonna suck more than pit fighter.

Arsenal

10-19-2007, 06:47 AM

well shit

i go to uiuc.

EDIT: NEVERMIND. I just read your post about not travelling to tourneys cuz of disability. It's cool. Keep on fightin' however you can.

tataki

10-19-2007, 06:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXG6resxD4

meter building pls.

you can here chun screaming GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY

Humbag

10-19-2007, 07:41 AM

You go to UIUC? Jesus, I just ran a large tourny a while ago...didnt have to travel much to go to that one ehh>?

mepaphoros

10-19-2007, 08:06 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIXG6resxD4

meter building pls.

LOL, that's the lamest thing I've ever seen in a SF game (meter-building and juggle cheese).

I can't believe how many of you defend 3rd Strike and hope SF4 is identical...:looney:

Arsenal

10-19-2007, 08:17 AM

you can here chun screaming GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY

Uh, if you're using that match as an example of the standard, you must not play competitive 3S. Way to take the exception to illustrate your point. I could just as easily find a match with little-no full-screen whiffing to illustrate mine. You've done nothing but let us all know much you dislike 3S. Good job :tup:

Dandy J

10-19-2007, 08:20 AM

Uh, if you're using that match as an example of the standard, you must not play competitive 3S. Way to take the exception to illustrate your point. I could just as easily find a match with little-no full-screen whiffing to illustrate mine. You've done nothing but let us all know much you dislike 3S. Good job :tup:
Everyone and their brother knows people whiff shit constantly in 3s to build meter. Some things don't need to be proven.

Demon Dash

10-19-2007, 08:23 AM

Personally I don't mind whiffing in MvC2 and 3S (bar Yun), but whiffing throws in A3 is dumb, it doesn't belong there at all...

Arsenal

10-19-2007, 08:25 AM

Everyone and their brother knows people whiff shit constantly in 3s to build meter. Some things don't need to be proven.

But not in the manner that was illustrated in that EXHIBITION match. You'll see commonly see whiffs to build meter, but usually after a knockdown.

Common example: Ken knocks you down, via super art, while you're cornered. Because of the fact you cannot quick recover, he walks foward, and starts whiffing low strongs in front of your fallen body (not point blank, but close enough). this does two things; builds meter and attempts to confuse you.

For every one match where both players are on 100% opposite ends of the screen, whiffing moves, I'll show you 5 matches where full-screen/non-interactivity DOES NOT occur.

mepaphoros

10-19-2007, 08:26 AM

I hope they take out super-moves/combos altogether.

Armane

10-19-2007, 08:28 AM

I vote for keeping whiffing. As mentioned in the topic, no one really sits there whiffing unless they need to build bar for a chip, which will be obvious to the other player. It's only really a problem in the case of Storm who's not even in SF so I don't see how that's relevant.

Remove Supers? Judging by the trailer they're not doing that any time soon. Supers appeals to the casual market, they can do something that looks cool with little effort, and gives the game added flash in the arcade. It's pretty much a given they'll be left in.

Arsenal

10-19-2007, 08:29 AM

I hope they take out super-moves/combos altogether.

Remove supers, I can see. Remove combos? How the fuck do you even live with yourself? Why not remove special normals and special moves too? Then we could just poke w/ normals and throw each other all day?

mepaphoros

10-19-2007, 08:31 AM

mepaphoros

10-19-2007, 08:34 AM

Remove supers, I can see. Remove combos? How the fuck do you even live with yourself? Why not remove special normals and special moves too? Then we could just poke w/ normals and throw each other all day?

Thanks for the denigrating response, (I live with myself and my wife fine, thanks) but I meant Super-combos. :wonder:

kmasera

10-19-2007, 09:00 AM

Thanks for the denigrating response, I'm going to keep bragging that I have this unattainable normal life that no one else on the internet has HURRRRRRRRRR.

you really are fun to troll, you're aware of this right?

mepaphoros

10-19-2007, 09:06 AM

you really are fun to troll, you're aware of this right?

If a self-proclaimed troll says it, then it must be true. :wink:

You kiddies like cursing people out on anonymous forums, is there a more pathetic form of exhibiting a lack of security? Pardon me if I find it quite obvious...must have been all those psych' classes in college.

lexicon of rage

10-19-2007, 09:09 AM

yeah, whiffing moves to build meter is lame. We need motherfuckers powering up like in dragon ball z to build meter!

KAIO-SHORYUKEN!

Honestly though, I can see where youre coming from. It would be better if you had to whiff specials or something instead. Whiffing for meter deters turtling by defensive players, though, so it should have a place in the game.

kmasera

10-19-2007, 09:11 AM

If a self-proclaimed troll says it, then it must be true. :wink:

You kiddies like cursing people out on anonymous forums, is there a more pathetic form of exhibiting a lack of security? Pardon me if I find it quite obvious...must have been all those psych' classes in college.

well, you see no

it's just that messing with people on the internet who are trying to keep their cool is awesome

oh yeah and why is this thread still open, normals shouldn't build meter mmkay

power333

10-19-2007, 09:23 AM

Imagine if MVC2 was like that...

Meter management is a very important part of MvC2. But unless SF4 has air dashes, flight, triangle jumps and all that stuff filling the whole screen I think we can be perfectly fine without building meter by whiffing moves.

azis

10-19-2007, 10:01 AM

I made a suggestion on a topic of "how to make it gorgeous". Whiffing attacks makes you lose power like in Samurai Showdown 5.

masher

10-19-2007, 10:36 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xUOERWixQ

meter building pls.

fixed :wonder:

CSS

10-19-2007, 12:13 PM

LOL, that's the lamest thing I've ever seen in a SF game (meter-building and juggle cheese).

I can't believe how many of you defend 3rd Strike and hope SF4 is identical...:looney:

moar liek most awesoem TECHNIQUES EVAR

edit: hey mepaphoros, just out of curiosity what fighters do you play?

No Limitz

10-19-2007, 01:03 PM

Whiffed Specials should build bar though since it actually involves a risk.

Enishi

10-19-2007, 02:39 PM

Anyone who just sits back and lets their opponent whiff on the other side of the screen for a meter build, deserves to be supered every match.:arazz:

Master Chibi

10-19-2007, 02:46 PM

And anyone who sits on the other side of the screen doing that is a pussy ass little bitch.

RAWR SO ANGRY

Enishi

10-19-2007, 02:57 PM

And anyone who sits on the other side of the screen doing that is a pussy.

You are what you eat.

Master Chibi

10-19-2007, 02:58 PM

You are what you eat.

Yeah good shit with the retort there Pee Wee Herman.

Enishi

10-19-2007, 03:00 PM

Glad you liked it Queer.

Rioting Soul

10-19-2007, 03:03 PM

Glad you liked it Queer.

Hey people, neg this guy. Oops, was supposed to post that in PD.

r3ko

10-19-2007, 03:15 PM

Other fighters have whiffing normals that build meter, but you don't see people back off and just start whiffing normals in those, as its much easier to build meter by just attacking instead.

The problem with whiffing normals in 3s is that you can build meter to quickly with them which goes against what whiffing normals is supposed to do in the first place. Whiffing normals is meant to reward the more aggressive player, even if he misses some attacks, not the person who backs off and just starts tapping buttons for no reason other than to build meter.

However just attacking in 3s should be more rewarding wise in building meter, as blocked and connected attacks build more meter than whiffed attacks. But Parry stops people from doing that. So sticking out pokes, and other predictable pressure on opponents just becomes parry bait. So in 3s your more or less encouraged at times just to sit back and whiff to build meter.

Rioting Soul

10-19-2007, 03:21 PM

Other fighters have whiffing normals that build meter, but you don't see people back off and just start whiffing normals in those, as its much easier to build meter by just attacking instead.

That and the fact that other fighters don't have parry as a universal option to beat out any attack you use to keep the opponent from whiffing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MZP3WYiOncI
Misrepresentation? Maybe.

GunterJPN

10-19-2007, 10:06 PM

I don't see a problem with whiffing normals for building meter. People say it takes away from the action, but the game doesn't need to be about action. Many players take the psychological approach and try to annoy their opponent, cause them to make mistakes, and capitalize. The game doesn't need to be played ONE way, and that's the beauty of it. Another thing to consider is that the reason many people are sitting back and whiffing is that the only way that their character can compete with the other character is with meter. That is a flaw in game design/balance. If the characters were all balanced, I wouldn't have to sit back and try and get as much meter as possible before jumping in on a Vega with A-Zangief in CvS2. A3 tried to take the extreme approach and give full meter at the start, but that game deteriorated FAST. By forcing the player to build up meter, it at least gives the opponent an opportunity to prevent it. IMO, that video of Tokido and Justin doesn't show the flaws of having whiffed normals build meter, I think it shows the dangers of being TOO passive. Justin could have rushed down and Tokido wouldn't have had that full meter. It was a risk, but Justin took the option of having meter himself. It didn't pay off, but at least there was an option.

With regards to the removal of combos, I don't agree with that either. Many people abhor custom combos, but to me, the execution of custom combos shows a direct result of putting time into the game. Sure, some CCs are easy, but it still takes a degree of timing to keep the combo going. There's a risk of a move being mistimed here or there. With regular supers, the only thing you earn is the hit before the super. CCs, you have to earn every hit. Combos in general are a sign of knowing your character and his capabilities. You don't want to ONLY have one hit moves. There should be a benefit to landing a move/breaking your opponent's defense. In all forms of martial arts, you look for one move to lead to another, and try to do as much damage as you can anytime you find an opening in their defense.

There hasn't been a perfect game to date (although I enjoy CvS2 and A2 more than any others), but the problems in the various games aren't caused by whiffing normals for meter or from combos. I think the bigger problem is balance.

Manx

10-19-2007, 10:10 PM

It's part of the game (or it isn't). Learn to deal with it. :tup:

sainthuey

10-19-2007, 10:12 PM

who cares, shit.

r3ko

10-19-2007, 10:22 PM

That and the fact that other fighters don't have parry as a universal option to beat out any attack you use to keep the opponent from whiffing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MZP3WYiOncI
Misrepresentation? Maybe.

If you read my whole post you would have read that i covered that.

It's part of the game (or it isn't). Learn to deal with it. :tup:

You think the designers of SF3 really wanted us to just stand off and whiff moves to build meter?

Its just something that happens not cause of the reward of standing off, but cause of the risks of actually attacking. And if both players are happy just to stand off build meter and wait for the opponent to attack first so they can try to parry, then your in your some boring games.

Also its not about being rewarded properly for being defensive or offensive, whiffing for meter basically rewards you for doing something which should be useless and non profitable.

It annoys the hell out of me when i see a match and not just 1, but both players immediately dash back and start tapping away to build meter. Yes thats exactly what capcom intended.... But you can't blame the players, blame the game, and i do blame 3s, oh so very much.

snakedizzle209

10-19-2007, 10:33 PM

It annoys the hell out of me when i see a match and not just 1, but both players immediately dash back and start tapping away to build meter. Yes thats exactly what capcom intended.... But you can't blame the players, blame the game, and i do blame 3s, oh so very much.

Capcom doesnt intend for us to do alot of things. We the players make up what high level play is.

Manx

10-19-2007, 10:35 PM

You think the designers of SF3 really wanted us to just stand off and whiff moves to build meter?

No, but they left it in, and I'm certain that they considered the possibilities of it happening and probably decided that someone would eventually get tired of whiffing and go hit their opponent. Either that or time would run out. :wink:

spudlyff8fan

10-19-2007, 10:56 PM

Did somebody just ask if we took what the developers intended into consideration?!?!?!?!

What manner of scrubbish heresy is this?

As said by Sirlin in this article: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/category/virtual-worlds/

"Players are free to pursue anything in the game they like, whether or not it was intended by any game designer, and whether or not anyone else thinks they should pursue them...as long as they act within the rules of the game."

BEGONE, HERETIC.

Manx

10-19-2007, 11:04 PM

What Sirlin said there applies more aptly to something like roll canceling, which is something that a developer should catch, but the average player probably won't. Whiffing moves to build meter is something that is apparent as soon as you start playing the game.

SNAAAAKE

10-19-2007, 11:19 PM

very well said GunterJPN :tup: couldnt have said it better myself

masher

10-19-2007, 11:32 PM

whiffing normals is like stretching for a match.

it loosens up tight and sore muscles and level up you chi(meter) since you're creating such energy with each strike! :amazed: :nunchuck:

goodm0urning

10-20-2007, 12:27 AM

snipAgreed re. whiffing. Disagree re. custom combos. While I readily admit that they reward players who spend time to learn them, I hate that every game that has them eventually begins to revolve around them. It might not kill the competitive value, but it makes the game bland and two-dimensional (no pun intended).

Dhalsimowns

10-20-2007, 12:44 AM

Meter should build off hits and blocked hits. This way everyone will be way more aggressive, the game will take more skill and most importantly that super boring aspect of 3s will be gone.

MonsterZodd

10-20-2007, 01:14 AM

pressing start and c.mk should both give full meter. and there should be no guard crush, and only the other guy takes cheese damage.

edit: and i want roll cancelling, even if there is no roll.

BKB

10-20-2007, 01:24 AM

Eliminate or discourage build meter land super playstyle. Supers should be an afterthought like in ST. This idea might help.

I would be more concerned about this as well.

Don't mind meter building too much myself, except when it gets stupid like what r3ko was talking about.

CoolWater

10-20-2007, 01:31 AM

Yeah good shit with the retort there Pee Wee Herman.

OMG Chibi is making me cry from all the laughing. Friggin' HILARIOUS!
But I agree, that pussy style meter building is weak. I do think there should be some ability to build meter for free though, since meter isnt only limited to supers. But truth be told, whiffing normals to buld meter is kinda dumb, I mean its fine just to have specials grant meter if whiffed and normals grant on block or hit. Simple.

nameingway

10-20-2007, 04:41 AM

do you realize how easy it would be for some people to build meter and how hard it would be for others? for instance, ken/ryu can do quick jap srk's and short hurricane (and if necessary, jump up/back short hurricane). then you have chars that don't have easy to do moves with pretty decent recovery. an example of that would be bison. sure he can short sissors or psycho, but that's more risky than the options ken and ryu have imo plus you have to charge both of those moves.

at least with wiffing to build meter everyone can do it.

Sasmasta

10-20-2007, 04:48 AM

Meter should build off hits and blocked hits. This way everyone will be way more aggressive, the game will take more skill and most importantly that super boring aspect of 3s will be gone.

do you realize how easy it would be for some people to build meter and how hard it would be for others? for instance, ken/ryu can do quick jap srk's and short hurricane (and if necessary, jump up/back short hurricane). then you have chars that don't have easy to do moves with pretty decent recovery. an example of that would be bison. sure he can short sissors or psycho, but that's more risky than the options ken and ryu have imo plus you have to charge both of those moves.

at least with wiffing to build meter everyone can do it.

Valid points.

If whiffing IS all together taken out, then Dhalsimowns idea would be the problem solver. In my opinion.

KING

10-20-2007, 06:12 AM

truth. stop the stupid whiffing for meter stuff.

masher

10-20-2007, 06:52 AM

You are what you eat.

so did you just call master chub a "dick ass bean burrito bitch"?:confused:

r3ko

10-20-2007, 06:59 AM

Capcom doesnt intend for us to do alot of things. We the players make up what high level play is.

No, but they left it in, and I'm certain that they considered the possibilities of it happening and probably decided that someone would eventually get tired of whiffing and go hit their opponent. Either that or time would run out. :wink:

Did somebody just ask if we took what the developers intended into consideration?!?!?!?!

What manner of scrubbish heresy is this?

As said by Sirlin in this article: http://www.sirlin.net/archive/category/virtual-worlds/

"Players are free to pursue anything in the game they like, whether or not it was intended by any game designer, and whether or not anyone else thinks they should pursue them...as long as they act within the rules of the game."

BEGONE, HERETIC.

Retards, i swear no one actually reads posts fully here, they read 1 sentence and start bitching. I quite clearly said you shouldn't blame the players, blame the game, learn to read guys.

Saotome Kaneda

10-20-2007, 11:45 AM

Retards, i swear no one actually reads posts fully here, they read 1 sentence and start bitching. I quite clearly said you shouldn't blame the players, blame the game, learn to read guys.
this is like the worst possible place on SRK to expect people to read things

aiy1tm

10-20-2007, 12:12 PM

so much silly nonsense examples in here.

How did Justin and Tokido whiffing a lot of normals hurt that match? Yah, you might *not* find that type of play fun to watch, but thats fortunately not what competitive play is about. In addition, Justin promptly got owned, despite building full bars.

Anyway, we couldn't have epic moments like the cyke comeback from Marvel this year. Justin would not have been able to build the necessary meter to kill off 3 characters without whiffing moves in the air while dancing around. If connect4meter rules were in place, he would be all but dead, forced to move in close to receive some chip damage to try to land some blocked hits to build meter / kill without meter.

Think of it this way, "connect4meter" rewards a particular playstyle, that might be more "fun2watch". Some players already play this way willfully, and let meter build on its own during the course of their regular "non-whiffing" gameplan. Why take the option away for characters/players who choose to employ a meter+turtling tactic? I don't think having that option hurts the game, because it definitely is not the only way to win.

Kunai

10-20-2007, 02:29 PM

Did one of you guys mention this in the Capcom BBS suggestion thread? I think you should... it's something that should be definitely brought up.

I am against the meter building, myself. When you look at the JWong/Tokido thread, you could say that it was used as a taunt of sorts. It could induce the opponent to attack you, so that could be a plus.

What ruins it is Yun and Genei Jin. The fact that his super stock is so short and the super being one of the most powerful in the game... I probably don't have to say much more. Everyone knows this already.

If it's slow building and everyone has the same type of super stock system, I wouldn't mind whiffing attacks if it's very incremental. The JWong/Tokido match being an example... they COULD have attacked each other to stop building meter, and it took each person about 20 seconds to get close to 1 stock. If it's an uneven stock system like 3S, I would vote against the method of whiffing attacks for meter.

r3ko

10-20-2007, 04:46 PM

this is like the worst possible place on SRK to expect people to read things

If someone is gonna comment on something else someone has written then they should at least have the common sense to read the whole post before going off on one. I don't think thats too much expect anywhere, internet or not.

Ouroborus

10-23-2007, 03:13 AM

polarity

10-23-2007, 06:16 AM

Get rid of whiffing specials to build meter too then....:confused:

Ouroborus

10-23-2007, 08:33 AM

get rid of supers all together then

polarity

10-23-2007, 09:12 AM

:rolleyes: Is it really so hard to imagine a game where only connected (block/hit) moves build meter? Not that I'd mind a game with no supers.

F.Y.C.N.

10-23-2007, 09:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_xUOERWixQ

meter building pls. fixed?:wonder:

fuck SF lets play some Vampire... who's with me?:wonder:

Crap

10-23-2007, 10:16 AM

You think the designers of SF3 really wanted us to just stand off and whiff moves to build meter?

I dont think the devs can determine what gamers do with their games. If that was the case, AR would be illegal.

Its just something that happens not cause of the reward of standing off, but cause of the risks of actually attacking. And if both players are happy just to stand off build meter and wait for the opponent to attack first so they can try to parry, then your in your some boring games.

True

It annoys the hell out of me when i see a match and not just 1, but both players immediately dash back and start tapping away to build meter. Yes thats exactly what capcom intended.... But you can't blame the players, blame the game, and i do blame 3s, oh so very much.

I dont get why people say blame the game so much, considering when you complain about what the players do to achieve those simple goals during a match.
fuck SF lets play some Vampire... who's with me?:wonder:

The fuck....thats not even a match.......

Radiantsilvergun3

10-23-2007, 10:18 AM

[QUOTE=GunterJPN;4418809]IMO, that video of Tokido and Justin doesn't show the flaws of having whiffed normals build meter, I think it shows the dangers of being TOO passive. Justin could have rushed down and Tokido wouldn't have had that full meter. It was a risk, but Justin took the option of having meter himself. It didn't pay off, but at least there was an option.

QUOTE]

You realize that chuns at the dissadvantage in that match up right? Witht he way3S was played back then his Chun didn't stand a chance against Tokidos Urien without the Meter where as had he chosen to rush down Tokido would have probubly rocked his ass anyway because Urien doesn't exactly need Meter to do damage unlike CHun Li whose whole game revolves around linking her SAII.
The only diffrences Justin might not have looked so dumb because he did have full Meter.

ElderGOD

10-23-2007, 11:01 AM

If you don't give meter for whiffs, but give meter for specials, then fighting guile will be a pain.

Iceman

10-23-2007, 02:24 PM

:rolleyes: Is it really so hard to imagine a game where only connected (block/hit) moves build meter? Not that I'd mind a game with no supers.

Nope, it isn't hard to imagine at all. It's called Super Turbo and it's getting re-released with character changes and shiney new sprites in a few months :lol:

Whiffing specials can build meter. But, 0% of whiffed normals build meter :wink:

felineki

10-23-2007, 08:44 PM

Only tangentially related to the topic, but with the way this forum's going, I figured it's best to stay within existing topic rather han make new ones:

With regard to managing super meter: What are the opinions on a "use it or lose it" system a la the original Darkstalkers? When your meter was full, you had limited amount of time to use it before it automatically emptied to zero. I haven't read much discussion on this feature, but since it was removed in the following installment and never saw the light of day again, I'd have to assume the majority of the reaction to it was negative.

Hoonyo

10-23-2007, 09:09 PM

please eliminate METER.

azis

10-24-2007, 07:00 AM

Whiffed pokes or specials should build meter.

But it should lose damage at some ratio. Somehow just like combo, the first hit is X, the second hit is X-X/10 third is X-X/5, and follows a rate, untill the minimal damage, 1 point, for example (unless in guard, to avoid Sakura's Shoshosho techniques). The first poke whiffed lose power. You should decide the better way to use it.

There is a compensation: If you build meter, you are risking. If you are suddenly attacked, maybe you can avoid, but with less damage than you would normally.

Lets show how it would work.

Imagine 3s Chun building meter, 5 times b+Fierce, than the super meter fills just right when the attacker decide to stop her. She does c.mk. This normal move should take about half than it would do, is works like the 6th hit from a combo. Then the super comes. It should do half of the damage. IF normally takes about 50% on Yun's life bar, it should take NOW about 25% on his life bar the hole combo (c.mk to SA2 super).

So it is wise to think about guarding a little bit, or taking some damage (maybe while guarding too much, you got thrown), while Chun-li take some "rest" to recover the attack power and THEN use the super to take full advantage of it. Or just don't care about that and do the Super to really do 25% of the normal damage, when you think it will kill. Just remembering that doing damage fills the enemy bar. If you don't kill, you fill his bar and, remember, you are doing less damage than before, you are know 22 hits or more with reduction, to continue the attack. So you could be surprised by a comeback. It should be wise to think: Should I jump and follow him to do Roundhouse or just stay here, take some rest? Should I jump with Fierce, than mixup for a few more hits or try to grab? Should I jump with Fierce to try to kill and if not, run, cause it will give me a little time? Is this time enough?

That is pure strategy, and that is why I suggest this. It just add some cool effect to the game. You don't know exactly if you will kill with Chun in this situation, so you just look to Yun's life meter (in the example) and pray to kill him.

Before dropping this idea, it should be tested, cause I think it is something really easy to add in a game (although I suck at programming), cause it is something universal, it could be just added like a formula stuck to all characters damage. If it is not nice, just drop this out or do some adjust to the original "Damage Reducing" formula. As I suggested it should work like the "combo damage reduce" formula, it would be easy to add. The game should call the "combo formula" when it hits, or the "Whiff formula" when it whiffs. If it whiff 2 hits, for example, and then hit, the combo formula starts from the third hit, wich is less than the first cause you whiffed two. If it is universal, it is fair and easy to add.

shinblanka

10-24-2007, 07:07 AM

whiffing pokes to build meter should definitely stay. some characters have no chance in hell without meter (cvs2 bison, yun, handful of the a3 cast). some characters takes no risk building meter with specials while some characters specials are too risky to build meter.

Like HUGO!!! this rule would really hurt hugo, because besides the jab clap he has no move that can build super meter that is safe.:wasted: I say keep whiffing attacks to get supers. It's the only safe way some characters have to build meter.:sweat: And for those that think it's broken because of yun's Genei Jin super there's an easy way to fix that. Make the super meter longer for the Genei Jin. I hate that he can get 2 per round.