GGPO, SFIV and why lagless online play is important (crosspost)

[nothingxs]

UPDATE AUG 29, 2008: SUCCESS!

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=163310

GGPO TO BE USED IN FUTURE NON-BACKBONE CAPCOM GAMES

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO WAS LOUD AS FUCK AND MADE WHAT THEY WANTED KNOWN TO CAPCOM EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

================================================== =========================

http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?t=20816

PLEASE POST OVER THERE IF YOU AGREE! WE NEED TO SHOW AS MUCH SUPPORT AS POSSIBLE FOR THIS IDEA IF WE ARE TO GET SOMETHING RESEMBLING GOOD NETPLAY, AND IT'S PRETTY MUCH UP TO US TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. MAKE EVERYONE YOU KNOW POST THAT EVEN SLIGHTLY GIVES A SHIT REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH OF AN APATHETIC JERK THEY ARE, THIS IS IMPORTANT AND I AM SURE YOU THINK THE SAME (EVEN IF YOU POST HERE GOING NO FUK U NXS LLOLOLOLOLO) -- GET THAT BALL ROLLING!

We're living pretty much in a time where arcades are no longer as economically feasible as they used to be. We're living in a time where people are beginning to reconsider the online solution as viable, and we have a clean example that this is, in fact, possible. Competition amongst friends is good, but people also want to play those they don't know, and we have moved away from arcades as a method of doing this, and are moving towards the internet.

http://ggpo.net

GGPO allows players to play Marvel VS Capcom and Street Fighter Alpha 2 online. More importantly, it allows players to play these games while enjoying no input delay and cleverly concealing lag through very interesting methods. This method of concealing lag allows for matches to be played almost as though people were sitting next to each other at the same console, with matches playing almost seamlessly.

It's important that this technology make it into SFIV, for both the fighting game community and for the more casual market as well.

Good, lagless matchmaking has pretty much been a pipe dream for as long as we think. The reason for this, I believe, is that games are not being coded with the idea of online support in mind. Instead, the games are built, and then online support is shoehorned in. For the GGPO netcode to work, I believe that serious considerations would have to be made for the game.

I personally believe that Capcom should seriously consider this for SF4, to the point even that they should closely work with the creators of GGPO to make this a reality. Nothing would make me happier than to enjoy SF4 online with friends and strangers, in a lagless, seamless environment. I think other players feel the same way.

Capcom, please make it so!

[Zandwich]

ryu should have corn rows in the next street fighter

[nothingxs]

oh zand :D

[MAGUS1234]

its not gonna happen, so you might as well get real close with people around you if you wanna get good.

[Goryus]

its not gonna happen, so you might as well get real close with people around you if you wanna get good.

That's a real can-do attitude ya got there. Glad to see you're trying to make a difference.

[10x]

Mos def' everybody show your support!

[JackHound214D]

its not gonna happen, so you might as well get real close with people around you if you wanna get good.

We are so fucked and this proves it. -_-

Signing up and posting for support btw.

[nothingxs]

its not gonna happen, so you might as well get real close with people around you if you wanna get good.

that's why you post and you show you care stop being a jerk it takes a tiny amount of your time for you to go on the capcom bbs and say

"i think this is a great idea, please do it capcom!"

to show your support and give the idea a fucking fighting chance. you can't even do that? come on, dude, i thought keystone was all about DAT HYPE! we know you're fucking hyped up for sf4 so you might as well yell it as loud as you can that you want that shit to be extra fucking awesome with a side of amazing fucking netplay. so just take a few minutes, register (you don't need verification) and post up. show capcom that you give enough of a shit, or at the very least, help those people who can't or don't have enough local competition to get access to excellent online competition and gameplay. we have the power and they are listening, don't sit around and wait for shit, SPEAK UP!

[AKUMA2000]

GGPO netcode all the way. :tup:

[Shodokan123]

posting myself in a sec once the server is un-busy

[Goryus]

posting myself in a sec once the server is un-busy

Yeah, their BBS is getting slammed. Good thing, I guess?

[eks]

lol @ "i doubt he would want any money"

why was that posted? he deserves financial reward for his efforts

[MAGUS1234]

Look, everyone is for it, why wouldn't anyone want some sick netplay. Im just being real, without arcades your gonna have to find ways to meet people around you that maybe havn't been in the scene or are coming back ect...

just sitting in a thread asking capcom for support has proven iffy, so at the end of the day the real action is gonna be in gathering people around you.

[Shodokan123]

lol @ "i doubt he would want any money"

why was that posted? he deserves financial reward for his efforts

i posted that... sure he deserves it... but thus far he's asked for nothing.

He sure as hell deserves the money... just it seems the community is in his heart more so than gaining financial benefit.

[JackHound214D]

Look, everyone is for it, why wouldn't anyone want some sick netplay. Im just being real, without arcades your gonna have to find ways to meet people around you that maybe havn't been in the scene or are coming back ect...

just sitting in a thread asking capcom for support has proven iffy, so at the end of the day the real action is gonna be in gathering people around you.


I think this forum can be considered the people around you. If you go here on a daily basis and communicate with the community and try to gather and effort like this one, something may be produced. And if not, it at least shows that we* are trying. One thing fighting games need more of is it's community.

*I don't really include myself in this since I have only been here...less then a day. :sweat:

[nothingxs]

Look, everyone is for it, why wouldn't anyone want some sick netplay. Im just being real, without arcades your gonna have to find ways to meet people around you that maybe havn't been in the scene or are coming back ect...

just sitting in a thread asking capcom for support has proven iffy, so at the end of the day the real action is gonna be in gathering people around you.

there's no argument here if everyone is for it then go and say hey motherfuckers we're for this idea there's nothing else to it

arcades are great and all and real life competition has no equal but in the end not everyone has access to that kind of competition, so this is mainly for those people (and for those of us who can't always go around all over the place or just want to get some quick games before work or in the middle of homework or in a break). there's really no reason to oppose this idea and to be honest there is no logical explanation for you to NOT try and do this

seth motherfucking killian already said they're paying attention, and at least one of the cannons on irc completely supported the idea of showing capcom that we fucking care about this and want it to happen

so what is the big fucking deal just go sign up post and be done with it, at the very least if nothing happens you can tell us "i told you so" but if it does happen you'd be pleasantly surprised

[comoesa]

Ponder has to reach out to capcom not us....


but yeah i will support

[nothingxs]

Ponder has to reach out to capcom not us....


but yeah i will support

maybe he's already trying

[SweetJohnnyV]

PLEASE POST OVER THERE IF YOU AGREE!


Done! :tup:

[G.O.T]

Mission complete...(flies off)

Seriously everyone should do this. This is the 3rd decent post all day.

[Doom_Virus_Dragon]

GGPO netcode all the way. :tup:

I agree 100%.

[comoesa]

LOL how did this get stickied already...


Loos like some of the higher think online play is the future.

[10x]

LOL how did this get stickied already...


Loos like some of the higher think online play is the future.Umm...cause it is?


Seriously, online gaming has blown up. Where have you been? What are the biggest games competively? All the PC games with great online services (Counter Strike, Warcraft). Do you think that those games got big because everyone's playing on LAN? Hell no.

GGPO has single handendly breathed life into games that would otherwise be completely and utterly dead. Imagine what it could do for the newest street fighter. If you doubt or rag on the idea of laggless online fighting, you are cancer killing the fighting game community. End of story.

[misterbean97]

just did my part. hopefully everyone pitches in.

[nothingxs]

thanks to everyone who has posted. but don't just post, get the word around to the largest amount of audiences you can. get that shit out there. let's show that we give a fuck about online play!

[Digitalbooty]

Posted

[Yeah Dood 120%]

:tup: Sign up and posted... dood.

[JackHound214D]

LOL how did this get stickied already...


Loos like some of the higher think online play is the future.

You are killing this idea, you know that?!

[DanD]

1. Posted up. (Complete)

2. Mobilizing the Troops. (In Progress)

[1sT_KyU]

agree.

[jsheppar]

i made post. hooray!

[VangardB]

Posted up!

[ihira]

posted.

Since the whole GGPO.net project is based on PC & FBA emulator I doubt they can just 'copy and paste' it over to their console ports.

The important thing is Capcom better make a lagless play possible weather its named ggpo or not.

[MAGUS1234]

It would be cool to see a PC port(i know it wont happen) but still, a cool idea.

[jin11]

Posted somethin'.. .

[AKUMA2000]

I posted.

[Renesis_13]

Signed up and posted :tup:

[Jonathan Ingram]

I'm all for this of course, but even if Capcom would like to use GGPO, what about Microsoft/Sony? Microsoft had a spat with EA a few years back over revenues from online play, which makes me a bit worried that the 360 version would either A) Be forced to use XBox Live's shitty code so Microsoft can profit directly from online play B) not feature any online play at all if Capcom were to insist on using code that bypasses XBox Live.

I think an effort like this will need to be expanded to convince Microsoft (and Sony) that the GGPO code is in their best interest to use/allow.

[sainthuey]

if it's 3D is that even possible to play online? Seems like a huge resource strain...but if it's 2D I definitely support this, as long as it goes to arcades as well...

[str[e]ak]

i've left my two cents. :tup:

[B.L. Pancho]

I just posted my megaton thoughts. I wanted to convey how important such a move could be to fighting games...just hope I didn't sound too nerdy =/

[MiLky]

Will GGPO work if it is 2.5 or 3D? I always thought it was coded for 2D sprite based fighter's?

I'll show some support when I get home from work on the Capcom boards anyway.

[R_T_S_D]

posted.

[DagV]

signing up and posted !!!!

[sfmaniac]

Tried link, but it didn't work.

[DevilJin 01]

Tis Is Da Gratest Idea!!!

[MaybeMemories]

Well the idea of capcom working with GGPO is far fetched, what people need to understand is that if online play does exist then it will HAVE TO go through XBOX Servers, that is that, if anything is going to be improved its the algorithm for netplay and i hope its superior to the current gaming ones,

PES-6 etc haver a great online franchise but it suffers severely from lag and its just the way it is, i hope Capcom take a step back and look at the whole picture as what NXS said is very true, arcades are dieing, and i need to play some americans. :)

[DarkNecrid]

Well the idea of capcom working with GGPO is far fetched, what people need to understand is that if online play does exist then it will HAVE TO go through XBOX Servers, that is that, if anything is going to be improved its the algorithm for netplay and i hope its superior to the current gaming ones,

PES-6 etc haver a great online franchise but it suffers severely from lag and its just the way it is, i hope Capcom take a step back and look at the whole picture as what NXS said is very true, arcades are dieing, and i need to play some americans. :)

Um



we don't even know what console (if any) its coming out on, so wtf why would it HAVE to go thru XBOX servers? Maybe it wont be on XBOX? (very unlikely, maybe the PS3 version will have it? :P)

[pootnannies]

posted.
hey this kind of thing worked when we wanted ms to make 3s and other fighters backward compatible with x360. maybe capcom will give a shit. it's very possible

[MaybeMemories]

its obviously gonna be on XBOX360/PS3

remember its a year away!

[SweetJohnnyV]

Well the idea of capcom working with GGPO is far fetched, what people need to understand is that if online play does exist then it will HAVE TO go through XBOX Servers


All of the online fighting games use a peer-to-peer networking model. The XBox servers are only used for voice communication and normal xbox stuff(Messages, Friends signing on, etc). There's nothing that I could think of that would prevent them from using GGPO.

[Steve F]

Nice thought, but Capcom would never sacrifice their revenue for this.

[power333]

just sitting in a thread asking capcom for support has proven iffy, so at the end of the day the real action is gonna be in gathering people around you.

Do you mean let's launch CCC2 iffy, let's launch ST HD iffy, or let's f*cking launch the most anticipated fighting game ever iffy?

[peas10]

ggpo doesnt work for a lot of people so im not gonna recommend it

[Shotokan Symphony]

ggpo doesnt work for a lot of people so im not gonna recommend it

when was the last time you used it?

[Goten X]

I'm down for this, guys. I really am, it would be awesome if Capcom agreed to this.

But for some reason, Capcom is down, too. As in their site. (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/SGotenX/CapcomIsDown.png) Dunno what's up with that.

[caliagent#3]

Nice thought, but Capcom would never sacrifice their revenue for this.

If they're truly trying to have little to no lag with online play, then they're already pouring tons of money into R&D to get this done. It'd be a lot easier to pay Ponder to use GGPO so they won't have to work from the ground up. This way they'll have A LOT of the work done for them already, and all they need to do is iron out some of the kinks, which should be easy since they'll have a team rather than 1 person doing all the work.

[TheDivine]

I'm down for this, guys. I really am, it would be awesome if Capcom agreed to this.

But for some reason, Capcom is down, too. As in their site. (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/SGotenX/CapcomIsDown.png) Dunno what's up with that.

Its the SF4 hype. It's so strong it killed their site. But really, I'll bet money they've taken it down to make a new layout revolving around SF4.

And this is a good idea, guys, but Capcom'll never go for it. They have their own coders and codettes to make shit like this. Hell, they can tell you "Yeah, we'll use it" but then they most likely won't.

I'm not saying its a bad idea (Even though I can't make GGPO work) but don't get your hopes up.

[Steve F]

If they're truly trying to have little to no lag with online play, then they're already pouring tons of money into R&D to get this done. It'd be a lot easier to pay Ponder to use GGPO so they won't have to work from the ground up. This way they'll have A LOT of the work done for them already, and all they need to do is iron out some of the kinks, which should be easy since they'll have a team rather than 1 person doing all the work.

Point taken, but what company wants to admit that a guy on the internet can do their job better? Plus, it would mean the end of OUR GGPO, because Capcom is not gonna pay Ponder for a deal where they will have to be giving him royalties or anything, they'd buy it outright. If Capcom owns it, how are we gonna play it? Simple, we wouldn't be able to.
I think the real point is, the online play should be lagless. I think we'd need to know al ot more about the technical side of things to know if it's even feasible to use this code on the new game. Companies do things the way they do 'em, and we can't stop 'em.

[polarity]

Its the SF4 hype. It's so strong it killed their site. But really, I'll bet money they've taken it down to make a new layout revolving around SF4.

And this is a good idea, guys, but Capcom'll never go for it. They have their own coders and codettes to make shit like this. Hell, they can tell you "Yeah, we'll use it" but then they most likely won't.

I'm not saying its a bad idea (Even though I can't make GGPO work) but don't get your hopes up.

They licensed the Unreal 3 engine, didn't they? I can't imagine this would even remotely compare to that expense.

[boogybro]

Fukken signed

[nothingxs]

okay first off this thread isn't to discuss whether ggpo should or should not be included, or if it will or won't be included. take that shit to your own thread.

this thread is pretty much to show your support for ggpo netcode on sf4. in the sense that, as was said above, they licensed the unreal 3 engine for sf4, there's no reason for them to not license and work on the ggpo code to improve their game. it's for the good of the community. i don't want to hear shit like "oh but they have coders to work on this" bullshit, or the "why would they sacrifice revenue" -- just fucking stop.

the fact of the matter is that licensing ggpo would be a relatively simple thing for a huge net gain.

the fact of the matter is you're arguing against this because you just want to be the devil's advocate (ie. you're a dick), are just plain out jaded (ie. you're a dick), or a complete idiot (ie. you're stupid, and probably a dick). i can't find any logical reason for people not to support ggpo netcode, even among the people who say it "doesn't work for everyone" (have you tried using it on the computer of someone for whom it DOES work? did you follow all the instructions to make it work in the first place?), because either you haven't tried it yet and should, or you're just naysaying for the sake of naysaying (ie. Divine).

stop laying around and being all negative and try getting something done for once. sfiv. new beginnings. a chance for great things to happen. don't fucking blow it!!!

EDIT: okay what the fuck

I had to test out this "GGOP" i've only recently heard of today, because of its plastering on the streetfighterworld front page under the hot topics... But wow...
You guys have to be kidding if you want this behind SF4.

This GGOP is basically a really SIMPLE Kaillera client that is locked at "low" or "average" connection speed. That means there wont be any "visual" lag or choppiness on screen, no matter how terrible the connection (in most cases), however the lag is traded off with LITERAL input delay... You can only do commands every 12~15 keyframes (meaning over 40 frames where you can't do much if anything).
Seriously, people.. Play your internet games and realize this GGOP stuff not only isn't anything new, but it isn't even GOOD. I'd much rather have visual choppiness than the inability to block on time (or even at all) because of some terrible "lag masking".

who the fuck?

[Goten X]

Don't single out Divine, it didn't work for him because of me. I didn't have my ports forwarded, so nothing showed up on the screen. It's weird, it let me watch a fight or two, and then after that I got black screens. All I have to do is get my ports forwarded.

Not everyone has to support this to "get something done". Some people are skeptical, but that's not going to stop people who are hopeful from trying to get this to work.

And why shouldn't this be a thread to discuss why or why not GGPO should be included? You're saying why you think it should be, and others are giving their opinion as to why it shouldn't be. Don't be hatin' on everyone 'cause they don't agree with you. :P

[nothingxs]

Don't single out Divine, it didn't work for him because of me. I didn't have my ports forwarded, so nothing showed up on the screen. It's weird, it let me watch a fight or two, and then after that I got black screens. All I have to do is get my ports forwarded.

Not everyone has to support this to "get something done". Some people are skeptical, but that's not going to stop people who are hopeful from trying to get this to work.

And why shouldn't this be a thread to discuss why or why not GGPO should be included? You're saying why you think it should be, and others are giving their opinion as to why it shouldn't be. Don't be hatin' on everyone 'cause they don't agree with you. :P

it would make sense if their opinions had actual merit. there's no real reason why the ggpo netcode (not the service) shouldn't be used in sfiv. if there is, no one has brought up a good reason why. so far, in opinions against, we only have the following:

- ignorance
- negativity

no one has brought up a solid, logical reason as to why ggpo netcode, which has been proven superior for fighting games to anything released thus far, should not be included in sfiv. we have people complaining about the current front end that uses the service (the emulator not living up to snuff, the client being wonky, it won't work for me, etc), but nothing against the technology itself.

no one is talking about the fucking service. we want the tech.

[Goten X]

Here's a reason: Maybe they have something that can match it, if not better. You're doubting what they can do before the game is even out. Let some more info pour in before saying we NEED this in the game.

Has it occurred to you that maybe everyone doesn't KNOW about the code? What about the people saying "Yeah, we should get Capcom to do this"? Do you think they know any more about the code than those that are doubting this will happen? You don't have to agree with their opinions, but don't call them ignorant because they're not what you want to see.

Capcom is capable of wonderful things, let them prove it before shoving this in their face.

[TheDivine]

okay first off this thread isn't to discuss whether ggpo should or should not be included, or if it will or won't be included. take that shit to your own thread.


And why not? I think its fair if people give their opinions on something. You can't just sit there and expect everyone to agree with you and get mad when they don't. Thats being conceited, and its ridiculous. Really, why would Capcom take a code from some random person on the internet when they can get trained professionals to do it?

this thread is pretty much to show your support for ggpo netcode on sf4. in the sense that, as was said above, they licensed the unreal 3 engine for sf4, there's no reason for them to not license and work on the ggpo code to improve their game. it's for the good of the community. i don't want to hear shit like "oh but they have coders to work on this" bullshit, or the "why would they sacrifice revenue" -- just fucking stop.

But thats a logical concern. They DO have their own coders to work on this kind of stuff. They pay once for something to get created instead of taking something from someone else and having to pay them just to use the code and inevitably having to pay royalties to the person every time someone buys the game, and in extreme cases every time someone turns it on and goes online. Thats a needless expenditure.

the fact of the matter is that licensing ggpo would be a relatively simple thing for a huge net gain.

Like I said above, it would be a gain for the people who want to play the game, but not for the company. Look at this from Capcoms point of view. You have to remember, they are a company first and WILL look for the choice that involved less money being spent.

he fact of the matter is you're arguing against this because you just want to be the devil's advocate (ie. you're a dick)

I'm just looking at things logically.

re just plain out jaded (ie. you're a dick),

See above.

or a complete idiot (ie. you're stupid, and probably a dick).

Again, see above. I'd also like to note that calling everyone who doesn't agree with this an idiotic dick makes you look like a child and therefore makes people agree with you less. People have opinions, get over it when they aren't the same as yours.

i can't find any logical reason for people not to support ggpo netcode, even among the people who say it "doesn't work for everyone" (have you tried using it on the computer of someone for whom it DOES work? did you follow all the instructions to make it work in the first place?), because either you haven't tried it yet and should, or you're just naysaying for the sake of naysaying (ie. Divine).

You can't find any logical reason because you're so devoted to it, and thats nice. But you have to look at everything from every angle, which you obviously are not doing. I'd also like to note here that I didn't say this was a bad idea, but it was unlikely that the code would be picked up by Capcom.

t would make sense if their opinions had actual merit. there's no real reason why the ggpo netcode (not the service) shouldn't be used in sfiv. if there is, no one has brought up a good reason why. so far, in opinions against, we only have the following:

- ignorance
- negativity

I don't think I'm being negative at all, I'm just smart enough to see the reasons why they could or should pick it up and why they won't. If anyone here is ignorant, its you, sir.

EDIT: Oh, and you keep ranting and raving that no one is giving any logical reasons as to why they shouldn't pick up the code (which is absolute bullshit), but you yourself aren't giving any logical reasons as to why they are wrong other than "You say that because you're a dick" and "They should take it because its the best!!!"

[Shotokan Symphony]

Capcom is capable of wonderful things, let them prove it before shoving this in their face.

Capcom's attempts for netplay for fighters has been fucking LAUGHABLE. Ask anyone on XBL.

[Goryus]

But thats a logical concern. They DO have their own coders to work on this kind of stuff. They pay once for something to get created instead of taking something from someone else and having to pay them just to use the code and inevitably having to pay royalties to the person every time someone buys the game, and in extreme cases every time someone turns it on and goes online. Thats a needless expenditure.

...

Like I said above, it would be a gain for the people who want to play the game, but not for the company. Look at this from Capcoms point of view. You have to remember, they are a company first and WILL look for the choice that involved less money being spent.

I'm sorry, but this is utter nonsense.

There's a reason people license engines rather than creating their own. Not only is it easier, but it's also MUCH CHEAPER. You don't have to pay a team of programmers for months just to get something that hopefully works (and spend even more time and money trying to fix it when it doesn't). Besides which, royalties are your friend - it's much easier to pay people when you have a successful product that is making money hand over fist than it is when stuck with no revenue because your game is still in development. Licensing is a well loved solution to that dillemmas.

Seriously, that's why people license things like the Unreal Engine, the Havok Engine, physics libraries (Aegia PhysX, etc.), and *gasp* netcode (Demonware, I'm looking at you). Most games that come out these days are built primarily on borrowed parts, because building these things from scratch is an enormous undertaking, and typically very expensive.

[10x]

Has it occurred to you that maybe everyone doesn't KNOW about the code?

...but don't call them ignorantIsn't that the very essence of ignorance?

But thats a logical concern. They DO have their own coders to work on this kind of stuff. They pay once for something to get created instead of taking something from someone else and having to pay them just to use the code and inevitably having to pay royalties to the person every time someone buys the gameIt would also cost time and money for them to pay their coders to do it. It may be cheaper in the long run to just get GGPO. SFIV is big for Capcom, and they're trying to get it out within a year. GGPO's already made and tested EXTENSIVELY and if they can afford the Unreal engine, I'm sure then can afford Ponder's algorithm. It's at the very least going to save them time.

Again, GGPO is the only algorithm tested to have near lagless (one frame is pretty damn good) online play. I wouldn't want anything less for SFIV.

But even if you don't agree with the above, you have to understand, this is bigger than all of us and GGPO. We want to send a clear message "lagless online play is important!" If you guys want to revitalize the scene in America, online is the best way too go. So even if you don't support ggpo PLEASE don't hinder us from getting a great online portion.

[krost]

Posted up on the Capcom BBS. Worth a shot :tup:

[orochizoolander]

While it would be optimal for capcom to liscence GGPO n use it for SF4 that prolly won't happen and i'm actually fine with that cuz i have faith in sirlin (it's more or less confirmed ST will run smoothly enough to please SRK)



At the earliest this game will come out winter09...thats a long time for capcom to work on netcode so i'm sure the online experience for ST n especially SF4 WILL meet SRK's expectations even without the use of GGPO's tech though i would prefer if capcom could actually work with the creators of GGPO.

[TheDivine]

But even if you don't agree with the above, you have to understand, this is bigger than all of us and GGPO. We want to send a clear message "lagless online play is important!" If you guys want to revitalize the scene in America, online is the best way too go. So even if you don't support ggpo PLEASE don't hinder us from getting a great online portion.

I won't try to stop this, I'm just voicing an opinion on the matter. It's been posted up on Capcom's forum, and we'll see where it goes from there. I wish you the best of luck.

Besides, I am in full agreement with the quoted statement. It's all about the lagless online play. We all want it, but to be frank I don't care where it comes from: GGPO or not.

[Aion]

Finally registered and posted up. I find it amazing how there is always one person (Stikku) who has to try and shine by opposing the crowd.

[SweetJohnnyV]

I can totally understand why some people may doubt that this will happen. However, I'm pretty sure that the only way it will happen is we have make our voice heard in fantastic numbers over on their board.

For those that have doubt's, let me address some points:

Capcom has some top coders. Have faith! I think they can get it right!

1. Capcom has released a lot of fighting games online. The online component has never been good. Even fairly recent releases have been plagued with problems.

2. Ponder has been working on GGPO for years. While I realize that Capcom didn't just start today on ST:HDR and SF4, I sincerely doubt that they will have the ability to invest years of man-hours soley into the online portion of the game.

3. This may be the biggest point. It is highly doubtful that they'll do an extensive public beta test of their code. No matter how well you think you've coded something, getting things to work on your corporate intranet and getting things to work out in the wild are two completely different beasts. Online play was one of the main components of the last game I worked on. We didn't do a public beta test, and because of that, there were tons of problems when it was released. It took quite a while to fix and we learned our lesson. If Capcom tries to create their own GGPO-like net code I can almost guarantee that ST:HDR will become the public beta test for SF4.


I'd love to see GGPO used as much as the next guy, but there's no way it's gonna happen. Capcom's not gonna share that dough!

1. I'm sure that Ponder wants(and deserves!) to get paid for all his hard work, but I sincerely doubt it'd cost as much as creating their own code. It's not just the cost of paying some guy to write code. It's the cost of releasing the first game(ST:HDR) and having lots of problems. That, in turn, means having to field a lot of support issues on their board, the cost of fixing those bugs, the cost of submitting patches to XBox Live(It costs quite a bit to submit a patch!), etc.

2. There's also the cost of having a lackuster image. Given that HF has tons of problems, if ST:HDR also has laggy/buggy online play then people will develop a bad impression of the Capcom brand. This may hurt more than the actual cost of coding and fixing bugs.

3. If you read between the lines, it's obvious that some of the people working on ST:HDR support GGPO and would rather license it than try to replicate it. But apparently these decisions are being made at a higher level. The only way these people on the inside can fight for this cause with any kind of credibility is to have something to point to, like a massive community outcry for GGPO.


So, even if you have some doubts, you should go make your voice heard over there. It's our only chance of making this happen. Let's make it happen people!

[Sephiroth73003]

Originally Posted by Some moron on Capcom BBS
I had to test out this "GGOP" i've only recently heard of today, because of its plastering on the streetfighterworld front page under the hot topics... But wow...
You guys have to be kidding if you want this behind SF4.

This GGOP is basically a really SIMPLE Kaillera client that is locked at "low" or "average" connection speed. That means there wont be any "visual" lag or choppiness on screen, no matter how terrible the connection (in most cases), however the lag is traded off with LITERAL input delay... You can only do commands every 12~15 keyframes (meaning over 40 frames where you can't do much if anything).
Seriously, people.. Play your internet games and realize this GGOP stuff not only isn't anything new, but it isn't even GOOD. I'd much rather have visual choppiness than the inability to block on time (or even at all) because of some terrible "lag masking".

lol 40 frames where you can't do much of anything? Except when the server messes up I find it absolutely no different than playing the guy as if he were sitting next to me. I use a dualshock 2 controller with a PS2>PS3 USB converter. Maybe he's just bad at Alpha and kept getting Vallera CC'd (lol i use it but i think that's what it's called when you sweep a guy and he can't respond to it) and thought it was GGPO that was the reason he couldn't block :rofl:. That or he had one hella bad converter for whatever USB device he was using :wgrin:. this is the stupidest thing i've heard. He's saying commands only work every 12~15 frames ... so every motion you do come's out 1/4 of a second after you input it ... sorry but that would be highly noticeable in online play and as NO ONE who gets the program running properly notices this, testimony is complete bull.

Also keep in mind the older streetfighters imo are less lenient towards sloppy inputs. I played alpha 3 the other day and it took me a good half hour to get used to doing all my inputs as precisely as it wanted them. I can half-ass even my kara's, dp's, and basically every other input in 3rd strike and GGXXAC and get them to come out 100% of the time, so that could have been an issue as well.

Also for you people that say IT DOESN'T WORK FOR YOU! It is not the program or your connection or whatever that is the problem. I'd say it's almost garunteed it was inproperly installed (missing necessary components other than the GGPO client that you need to run GGPO) or your ports are fuck'd up. If you try to connect with someone and your screen just stays black THAT IS THE PROBLEM go fix it and don't say it's the programs fault. It's yours as it says clearly in the instructions you HAVE to do this.

Also keep in mind this is an Alpha ... far from finished. I get errors pretty often that mean i have to restart the client and such but those i expect to be fix'd eventually. I've Alpha and Beta tested other programs before and for an Alpha I am stunned by how well it runs. I figure he's calling it an Alpha still because he is still trying to add features, but hell i'm impressed by what Ponder has done. Also Ponder is doing this for FREE or has so far. So i'd bet that if he was able to secure a better server (which probably cost a bit more money), a lot of the mass lag that occurs every now and than on GGPO would stop. Mass lag normally means server problems rather than individual latency issues, but than again i'm not sure how he is running this so I could be wrong.

[nothingxs]

Here's a reason: Maybe they have something that can match it, if not better. You're doubting what they can do before the game is even out. Let some more info pour in before saying we NEED this in the game.

they don't. look at puzzle fighter hd (why the hell does puzzle fighter have input delay?). look at anything on xbox live. look at hyper fighting on live arcade.

Has it occurred to you that maybe everyone doesn't KNOW about the code? What about the people saying "Yeah, we should get Capcom to do this"? Do you think they know any more about the code than those that are doubting this will happen? You don't have to agree with their opinions, but don't call them ignorant because they're not what you want to see.

uh, if they don't know, then they're ignorant. isn't that the definition of ignorance?

Capcom is capable of wonderful things, let them prove it before shoving this in their face.

they already have proved it with the aforementioned games. i'm just saying we should skip the bullshit and make sure sf4 has hot netcode by lobbying for ggpo's netcode to get licensed. is this hard to understand?

And why not? I think its fair if people give their opinions on something. You can't just sit there and expect everyone to agree with you and get mad when they don't. Thats being conceited, and its ridiculous. Really, why would Capcom take a code from some random person on the internet when they can get trained professionals to do it?

i agree, i can't expect everyone to agree. what i can expect is for those people who disagree but couldn't give two shits either way to get the fuck out of the way.

since when was ponder a random fucking person on the internet? he fucking organizes evo, motherfucker! he gets capcom's sponsorship every year and all of a sudden he's a random fucking nobody? do you think about what you post before you post it?

But thats a logical concern. They DO have their own coders to work on this kind of stuff. They pay once for something to get created instead of taking something from someone else and having to pay them just to use the code and inevitably having to pay royalties to the person every time someone buys the game, and in extreme cases every time someone turns it on and goes online. Thats a needless expenditure.

yeah i guess licensing the unreal engine for graphics is a needless expenditure, next time their engine should be in house.

oh wait! licensing saves you issues with testing (because most of what is licensed is already thoroughly tested) and time (because you don't have to write it from scratch ... or test it), which saves a lot of money in the end. do you think about what you post before you post it?

Like I said above, it would be a gain for the people who want to play the game, but not for the company. Look at this from Capcoms point of view. You have to remember, they are a company first and WILL look for the choice that involved less money being spent.

yeah i guess licensing the unreal engine for graphics is a needless expenditure, next time their engine should be in house.

oh wait! licensing saves you issues with testing (because most of what is licensed is already thoroughly tested) and time (because you don't have to write it from scratch ... or test it), which saves a lot of money in the end. do you think about what you post before you post it?

whoa, deja vu

I'm just looking at things logically.

logic - information = durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

See above.

hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Again, see above. I'd also like to note that calling everyone who doesn't agree with this an idiotic dick makes you look like a child and therefore makes people agree with you less. People have opinions, get over it when they aren't the same as yours.

i call them as i see them

You can't find any logical reason because you're so devoted to it, and thats nice. But you have to look at everything from every angle, which you obviously are not doing. I'd also like to note here that I didn't say this was a bad idea, but it was unlikely that the code would be picked up by Capcom.

the more unlikely it is, the louder we have to be. it's that simple. the more they know that something exists that will help them, the bigger the chances of them adopting it.

my logical reason is that empirical evidence states that ggpo is pretty much the best networking solution for peer to peer game play. it might not be good for, say, starcraft (because that game seems harder to keep synced to me), but it's pretty much perfect for fighting games. just about everyone on this thread agrees. this tells me that a good deal -- if not the overwhelming majority -- of people have arrived to the same conclusion. seems pretty fucking logical to me.

I don't think I'm being negative at all, I'm just smart enough to see the reasons why they could or should pick it up and why they won't. If anyone here is ignorant, its you, sir.

who says they won't? you're being negative. you've given up before the fight. in fact, you think the fight is fruitless. i think you're a moron.

EDIT: Oh, and you keep ranting and raving that no one is giving any logical reasons as to why they shouldn't pick up the code (which is absolute bullshit), but you yourself aren't giving any logical reasons as to why they are wrong other than "You say that because you're a dick" and "They should take it because its the best!!!"

but it is the best. it's, at the very least, the best we have so far. can you bring up a better idea? do you know of a better net client? even p2p kaillera lags when you try to play coast-to-coast. not so with ggpo. that's enough empirical evidence for me to wholly back ggpo.

[Keits]

NothingXS is great at arguing. You win 2 internets, sir. You remind me of myself in my prime.

[nothingxs]

NothingXS is great at arguing. You win 2 internets, sir. You remind me of myself in my prime.

i don't know whether this is some subtle form of elite ninja sarcasm or funny honesty

help, the internet doesn't convey tone of voice :(

[Keits]

Its honesty. I love ya man. Your tia is coming for the Breaker's title next year, I feel it.

[JackHound214D]

*snip big wall of text made of awesome*

Werd man. All points covered.

[nothingxs]

Its honesty. I love ya man. Your tia is coming for the Breaker's title next year, I feel it.

breaker's is too fun :(

when are we getting breaker's HD

[eks]

good shit nothingxs, i posted

[AudioCG]

I am continusly impressed by GGPO's online performance, I too think Capcom should be taking a SERIOUS look at its systems and protocalls.

[Yasashiyama]

Nothing, your thread (in the Capcom board) NEEDS to be stickied. That shit is buried under a hundred "Why SF should be 3D!!!1111one" threads. Someone needs to pulls some strings otherwise the fanboys will ruin this. The fanboys don't even know there's a Street Fighter 3. D:

[nothingxs]

Nothing, your thread (in the Capcom board) NEEDS to be stickied. That shit is buried under a hundred "Why SF should be 3D!!!1111one" threads. Someone needs to pulls some strings otherwise the fanboys will ruin this. The fanboys don't even know there's a Street Fighter 3. D:

i know

where's killian?!?!

[shinblanka]

there's no argument here if everyone is for it then go and say hey motherfuckers we're for this idea there's nothing else to it

arcades are great and all and real life competition has no equal but in the end not everyone has access to that kind of competition, so this is mainly for those people (and for those of us who can't always go around all over the place or just want to get some quick games before work or in the middle of homework or in a break). there's really no reason to oppose this idea and to be honest there is no logical explanation for you to NOT try and do this

seth motherfucking killian already said they're paying attention, and at least one of the cannons on irc completely supported the idea of showing capcom that we fucking care about this and want it to happen

so what is the big fucking deal just go sign up post and be done with it, at the very least if nothing happens you can tell us "i told you so" but if it does happen you'd be pleasantly surprised

I couldn't have said it better. There is NO REASON anyone shouldn't post for support of this idea. I don't care if you live 2 blocks from CTF, FFA, or svgl you should still want to help the rest of the community with supporting this idea. If you took the time look/read/post in this thread you should support it imo. The only way I see someone not supporting this idea is they don't like ggpo or any online gaming. This is about the good of the scene for SF4. I think SF4 will/should goto arcades 1st, but I will support this idea when the capcom server isn't so damn busy!

[shinblanka]

its obviously gonna be on XBOX360/PS3

remember its a year away!

I will be surprized if sf4 is console only. If tekken 6 is released in the arcade 1st and its been only one year since t5dr was released I know StreetFighter 4 will be in the arcades 1st. With that said you still should support this idea, so when it is on console we will have the best online netcode for SF4.

[{ Jase }]

I dont give a fuck about online play,long as it comes to my arcade

[Neo DX90]

seeing as I don't live anywhere within 100 miles of a decent arcade (as do many many many other people) this matters a lot to me.

GGPO all the way.

[Shirts]

Too bad there's no such thing as "lagless".

[shinblanka]

I dont give a fuck about online play,long as it comes to my arcade

That's pretty fucked up thing to say man. That's selfish as hell to make that remark. Think about the scene and not your own selfish reasons. Even though I think SF4 will be in the arcade 1st I do care about the people that don't have a arcade within 200 miles.

[SteveTren]

That's pretty fucked up thing to say man. That's selfish as hell to make that remark. Think about the scene and not your own selfish reasons. Even though I think SF4 will be in the arcade 1st I do care about the people that don't have a arcade within 200 miles.

co-sign

Hmm, arcades are all but extinct in the US. SF has always been about head to head competition, so near lag free online play should and will be very important. If it even makes it to the arcades in Japan, good luck getting your broken joystick arcade owners here in the US to buy it. Shit I'll buy the jamma kit and set it on free play just so anyone near me can come play it before they convert it to console. Thats assuming it not a console only game anyway. :wgrin:

[gSTRUCTOR]

I posted, there are 14 pages of comments and counting. I just hope if he gets hired, he wont abandon us leaving the free ggpo in the past and going fulltime corporate.

[{ Jase }]

That's pretty fucked up thing to say man. That's selfish as hell to make that remark. Think about the scene and not your own selfish reasons. Even though I think SF4 will be in the arcade 1st I do care about the people that don't have a arcade within 200 miles.

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.

[DarkNecrid]

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.

yeah cause arcades are more popular than online play at the moment :wink:

[AudioCG]

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.

Ignorant and arrogant, always good for a pity laugh, but seriously, hows that working out for you? Life is good?:sweat:

[Dandy J]

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.
yes. every arcade.

all 5 of them.

[SteveTren]

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.

Back in the day arcades rocked but guess what.. They are history!! I'm gonna have a good laugh if we find out this is going straight to console.:rofl:

[{ Jase }]

Back in the day arcades rocked but guess what.. They are history!! I'm gonna have a good laugh if we find out this is going straight to console.:rofl:

wouldn't matter.

Arcade > online

[SteveTren]

wouldn't matter.

Arcade > online

Apparently it does matter to you. You just begged Capcom to bring it to arcades and screw online play. :rofl: So, if only hits consoles I guess your screwed.

[randomsuper]

i'd be shocked if it didn't hit arcades first. it just seems so logical to me to go arcade, then console and online play. arcades are the root of street fighter.

[{ Jase }]

Apparently it does matter to you. You just begged Capcom to bring it to arcades and screw online play. :rofl: So, if only hits consoles I guess your screwed.

i didnt begg,

i made a statement.

if they come out with both you are fucked. like a 13 inch dick in my ass.

i'd be shocked if it didn't hit arcades first. it just seems so logical to me to go arcade, then console and online play. arcades are the root of street fighter.

bout time you said something right you fucking scrub.

[Ponder]

I will be surprized if sf4 is console only.

I wouldn't be.

[randomsuper]

jase is a troll. apparently a gay troll with a 13 inch dick in his ass. just ignore him.

[Ponder]

Well, here's my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree: just realize that I'm speaking from an informed opinion and you are probably not. :lovin:

Capcom has very recently gone through a complete 180 in their attitude toward the community. They are now extremely interested in what their fans have to say and are taking their input very seriously. The Capcom Digital blog is a direct result of this transformation. So those of you who think posting your thoughts to a thread on a Capcom BBS doesn't matter are wrong. It does. People from Capcom are reading it and taking your opinions into consideration.

Capcom USA does not develop everything they ship in-house. Many of the titles that they do publish like STHD are developed by partners, in this case Backbone Entertainment. That is proof right there that Capcom will work with 3rd parties to get things done: they have to!

I've heard many people say that nothing will happen unless Ponder approaches Capcom. Even if this were true (which it isn't. see above) and even if it did happen, there's no way you could possibly know about it. The first thing any company will do when talking with 3rd parties is to make sure both sides sign NDA's preventing the other from talking about their discussions.

The techniques used in GGPO are not new, but this shouldn't surprise anyone. Virtually everything interesting in computer science was done in the 70's by Knuth, IBM, et. al.. Everything else is just incremental improvement. That being said, GGPO and zsnes are the only two implementations to my knowledge that worked for fighting games and the zsnes code is long dead (and afaik doesn't work in the latest build).

The bottom line is that if you want good networking you can either try to convince Capcom to license it from GGPO or re-invent it. Either way is productive, since you know Capcom will listen to you. There's no point in being defeatist here: I'm 99.9% sure the only way STHD and SF4 will not have good networking is if Capcom thinks the audience doesn't care about it!

[Keits]

We can't afford to not care. Only 10% of us, or less, have regular access to high level competition near our homes (be it at arcades or on consoles face to face).

[shinblanka]

Well, here's my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree: just realize that I'm speaking from an informed opinion and you are probably not. :lovin:

Capcom has very recently gone through a complete 180 in their attitude toward the community. They are now extremely interested in what their fans have to say and are taking their input very seriously. The Capcom Digital blog is a direct result of this transformation. So those of you who think posting your thoughts to a thread on a Capcom BBS doesn't matter are wrong. It does. People from Capcom are reading it and taking your opinions into consideration.

Capcom USA does not develop everything they ship in-house. Many of the titles that they do publish like STHD are developed by partners, in this case Backbone Entertainment. That is proof right there that Capcom will work with 3rd parties to get things done: they have to!

I've heard many people say that nothing will happen unless Ponder approaches Capcom. Even if this were true (which it isn't. see above) and even if it did happen, there's no way you could possibly know about it. The first thing any company will do when talking with 3rd parties is to make sure both sides sign NDA's preventing the other from talking about their discussions.

The techniques used in GGPO are not new, but this shouldn't surprise anyone. Virtually everything interesting in computer science was done in the 70's by Knuth, IBM, et. al.. Everything else is just incremental improvement. That being said, GGPO and zsnes are the only two implementations to my knowledge that worked for fighting games and the zsnes code is long dead (and afaik doesn't work in the latest build).

The bottom line is that if you want good networking you can either try to convince Capcom to license it from GGPO or re-invent it. Either way is productive, since you know Capcom will listen to you. There's no point in being defeatist here: I'm 99.9% sure the only way STHD and SF4 will not have good networking is if Capcom thinks the audience doesn't care about it!


With that post I can read so much into it, but I learned to not question when brother ponder speaks/types.:wink::wonder:

Ok people, now you know capcom will see our request and they will take it seriously if we show enough support for this thing to happen. I'm going to check the site right now so I can post also.

[shinblanka]

hi,

my name is jase and i dont care for anyone but myself,hope that answerd your question.

online play is useless. CAPCOM bring that shit to the arcades, dont waste your fucking time with online crap.online play is garbage.


You live in bama right? Is there an arcade in bama that has a working 3rd strike machine? The arcade in dothan mall is gone now right? I thought that was the best arcade in the state, but i'll ask big issac "reakwon187" if i'm wrong.:confused: What makes you think that any arcade in bama will get SF4 when they took 3S out? The funny thing is I might be the only person with sf4 in Ga./Bama area if the arcades don't get it here at D&B or jillians. I will buy the arcade kit and put it in my cab. I think you wouldn't be invited to play on my cab, so you would be S.O.L. until it was released on console:wonder::rofl::lol::arazz::wgrin:

[nothingxs]

That being said, GGPO and zsnes are the only two implementations to my knowledge that worked for fighting games and the zsnes code is long dead (and afaik doesn't work in the latest build).

Even when the ZSNES code worked, it did a TON of rollback/hiccuping when the distances were greater. It was a lot, lot worse than GGPO is right now, to the point where I found it almost unplayable. Whatever magic you put into GGPO that keeps it from falling into that pit of mediocrity is its major selling point, IMO.

[shinblanka]

I added my .02 to the blog.:wink:

[cmonster]

I'll post my support as soon as I can get into the damn website.

[nothingxs]

I added my .02 to the blog.:wink:

to the blog?

also why isn't this shoryuken.com front page news? fuck

[B.L. Pancho]

Everybody, Please double your efforts. Even if you have already posted once, try posting again if for no other reason than to keep the thread bumped+healthy. Those who haven't please post and show your support.

[AKUMA2000]

Capcom has very recently gone through a complete 180 in their attitude toward the community. They are now extremely interested in what their fans have to say and are taking their input very seriously. The Capcom Digital blog is a direct result of this transformation. So those of you who think posting your thoughts to a thread on a Capcom BBS doesn't matter are wrong. It does. People from Capcom are reading it and taking your opinions into consideration.

The bottom line is that if you want good networking you can either try to convince Capcom to license it from GGPO or re-invent it. Either way is productive, since you know Capcom will listen to you. There's no point in being defeatist here: I'm 99.9% sure the only way STHD and SF4 will not have good networking is if Capcom thinks the audience doesn't care about it!

Very good to hear, hopefully SF fans will continue to show thier support and be heard. :tup:

[FMJaguar]

I think we can take an example from the art discussion. I had no idea about lines in muscles until people started posting endlessly about it, posting diagrams, redrawing it etc... Some people mentioned a style, but there were a lot of specifics, anyone could read the thread and tell excatly what people were expecting from the sprites even if they weren't an artist.

We need to take netplay to that level of detail so its obvious to even non SF players what we expect. Ultimately it's Capcom's choice how it gets done, but I can see some crazy things happening if they don't really understand what we want... "Well we know you want 1 frame, but we tried 3 in house and noone could tell the difference so we went with it" That sort of thing.

Many people are already doing this, but i thought i'd add it since a bunch of new people are posting as well.

[denjin]

Power to the people.

[JCL]

Thanks Ponder for that inside information. I just added my support for GGPO on the Capcom boards!!

[Fallback]

obviously capcom wants to develop their own netcode so they dont have to worry about licensing issues and they can re purpose the netcode for future projects without paying for licensing for each system port and for re releases. In the long run its probly cheaper for them to use their own code since these streetfighter games get republished over and over and then on anthology packs. I do think they should license the GGPO code or get the GGPO team to work on a capcom version though since its the best thing out now.

[SweetJohnnyV]

I just wanted to say that I think it's great to see that people have been continually posting their support on the Capcom BBS to keep the GGPO post on the top page. Currently, that thread has almost as many posts as the stickied thread about gameplay suggestions. That's awesome! :lovin:

[shinblanka]

I have a question fella's. If sf4 has the ggpo online netcode will you have to forward your ports for the console play or what? I've only played EA sports games before ggpo came out. I never had to forward my ports to play my sports games. To some people forwarding the ports is a hassle or they don't know how to do it correctly. Hopefully over the next year ggpo can add an instructional page with step by step details for windows 98-XP, because sometimes you have to do more than forwarding your router ports. I think that's the only reason people have problems with lag on ggpo.

My 0.02

[caliagent#3]

I have a question fella's. If sf4 has the ggpo online netcode will you have to forward your ports for the console play or what? I've only played EA sports games before ggpo came out. I never had to forward my ports to play my sports games. To some people forwarding the ports is a hassle or they don't know how to do it correctly. Hopefully over the next year ggpo can add an instructional page with step by step details for windows 98-XP, because sometimes you have to do more than forwarding your router ports. I think that's the only reason people have problems with lag on ggpo.

My 0.02

I'm assuming that if capcom liscences ggpo from ponder, then they'll be able to iron out those bugs a lot faster since they'll have a team of people to work on it rather than just 1 person. And with that said i'll post on the capcom bbs asking for ggpo

[shinblanka]

I'm assuming that if capcom liscences ggpo from ponder, then they'll be able to iron out those bugs a lot faster since they'll have a team of people to work on it rather than just 1 person. And with that said i'll post on the capcom bbs asking for ggpo

Yea, I still support ggpo for sf4. That's the only problem I seen with ggpo. Try to make it more noob friendly to set up properly.

[nothingxs]

i think something that could happen is that they could use xbox live's servers to host a daemon (think of it as a program) meant specifically to punch through routers. it seems like a quick solution and i don't know how involved the server would be after establishing the initial connection, so lag shouldn't really increase.

[shinblanka]

i think something that could happen is that they could use xbox live's servers to host a daemon (think of it as a program) meant specifically to punch through routers. it seems like a quick solution and i don't know how involved the server would be after establishing the initial connection, so lag shouldn't really increase.

Ok, just wondering

[Kyokugen]

I have a question fella's. If sf4 has the ggpo online netcode will you have to forward your ports for the console play or what? I've only played EA sports games before ggpo came out. I never had to forward my ports to play my sports games. To some people forwarding the ports is a hassle or they don't know how to do it correctly. Hopefully over the next year ggpo can add an instructional page with step by step details for windows 98-XP, because sometimes you have to do more than forwarding your router ports. I think that's the only reason people have problems with lag on ggpo.

My 0.02

It took appox. 6 minutes to fix the necessary ports.

[FMJaguar]

If it were used in a console game, i'm sure the ports would be handled the same way as any other console game.

[nothingxs]

y'all have been to quiet. make some fucking noise!

[pootnannies]

just posted

[SweetJohnnyV]

y'all have been to quiet. make some fucking noise!

I posted something up on the XBL Hyper Fighting forum to tell them about it. Hopefully that'll give us another influx of posts :wgrin:

[rikstron]

Signed up and posted. I think the thread will make a difference since it's so big and getting a lot of attention.

[nothingxs]

welp

the entire thing has been insanely quiet now, people barely posting

go post it around to other forums. someone make a habit to post it inside ggpo lobby every so often. don't let that shit fall off page one!

http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?t=20816

[Iron Z]

an arcade, or a console, is just a platform. hardware.

the essence of SF is competition.

right now, the competition is gone from arcades. its online, with 100s of thousands of people signed up to Xbox Live and PSN.

the reason fighting games have never really worked online before is because they were designed only to be played OFFline....so framedata, and exactly synched timing etc is critical to hits, inputs and the like.

With a blank sheet of paper, im sure Capcom could come up with a fighting system that is both recognisably streetfighter, and gets around the inevitable problems associated with networking (even with systems like GGPO implemented).

Hell, even the ranking system in SF2T:HD sound unbelievably cool. Knowing that you are the #2 Ryu in the whole country, with title shots, weekly online tournaments, team matches like the 3v3 internationl tournaments would create a bigger, more competitive scene in the west than an arcade release. Of course the arcades could be networked in as well....

[GJN]

yeah...I'm sure some of you played GGXX on Xboxt Live. So yeah, lagless online play is Extremely Important to fighting games, in general. I hope SFVI online (hopefully) will bring a lot more gamers back into the genre.

[hamelkarl]

I felt the need to post here because it was why 3rd strike was not that good on X-Box. Too hard to red parry and parry long ass combos or supers or fireballs with 3 hits. It was easy to parry offline, but online you never know when the lag will trick or threat you.

[Boki]

it would be nice if there would be a dedicated ggpo server solution xD

[nothingxs]

it would be nice if there would be a dedicated ggpo server solution xD

it's a peer to peer connection why would you need a dedicated server solution

[forest31]

an arcade, or a console, is just a platform. hardware.

the essence of SF is competition.

right now, the competition is gone from arcades. its online, with 100s of thousands of people signed up to Xbox Live and PSN.

the reason fighting games have never really worked online before is because they were designed only to be played OFFline....so framedata, and exactly synched timing etc is critical to hits, inputs and the like.

With a blank sheet of paper, im sure Capcom could come up with a fighting system that is both recognisably streetfighter, and gets around the inevitable problems associated with networking (even with systems like GGPO implemented).

Hell, even the ranking system in SF2T:HD sound unbelievably cool. Knowing that you are the #2 Ryu in the whole country, with title shots, weekly online tournaments, team matches like the 3v3 internationl tournaments would create a bigger, more competitive scene in the west than an arcade release. Of course the arcades could be networked in as well....

Do you think that SF4 will come to the PC? I do not have an X-Box 360, PS3 or Wii yet, all I have is a PS2, a SNES, and a kick-butt PC (Celeron P4 3.33 GHz, Geforce 8 series card, 1.512 MB RAM, DSL line).

[haaris_abbasi]

Here is to why they will not use GGPO:

1. Both the PS3 and Xbox 360 only allow network connections to the XBLN and PS3N.

2. The recent release of VF5 is awsome for the 360 online play. My friends and I play online and it is just as good as GGPO [assuming you are playing someone with at least 2 bars].

[ColdBrand]

Fluid online play certainly does sound rather appealing I must say.

[Zakuta]

Nice idea, but even GGPO isn't lagless.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Nice idea, but even GGPO isn't lagless.

Sure, but it's miles better than any of Capcom games thus far. Also, the awful problems in HF and their lack of any patches to fix those problems make it pretty clear that they're not committed to fixing their problems. So, I'd much rather see them go with something that I know is good, rather than hope they come up with something similar on their first try.

[nothingxs]

okay have you all had some rest

good

make some more noise fuckers

[Demon Dash]

So is GGPO copyrighted?

[haaris_abbasi]

Well... its never going to happen. The reason is because the libraries for sending packets are already configured in an X Box Live Network Code and Playstation Network Code, libraries already prebuilt for network packet sending and server communication. The way GGPO works is by creating an almost direct connection between 2 hosts. BTW.... VF5 online play is actually almost as good as GGPO. Far better than the 3rd strike online play. They should follow that model as it will allow XBLN code to be implemented easily. After doing that, improve on that model and take out extrenous code.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Well... its never going to happen. The reason is because the libraries for sending packets are already configured in an X Box Live Network Code and Playstation Network Code, libraries already prebuilt for network packet sending and server communication.

False. The XBox360 allows you to use standard socket programming. And I assume the PS3 is the same.

Why do people on here just make shit up and post it as though it's fact? WTF? :confused:

[haaris_abbasi]

Originally Posted by haaris_abbasi
Well... its never going to happen. The reason is because the libraries for sending packets are already configured in an X Box Live Network Code and Playstation Network Code, libraries already prebuilt for network packet sending and server communication.

False. The XBox360 allows you to use standard socket programming. And I assume the PS3 is the same.

Why do people on here just make shit up and post it as though it's fact? WTF?

Ummm... Im not. There are the standard C socket programming libraries available, but no one will use that since:

The Xbox live network libraries are already pretty stable.

Its NOT that they CAN'T, but rather it is EASIER to use already prewritten code. That is fact. Im not saying they can't port over GGPO.Net style connection, but that it is easier to simply use prewritten XBL libraries. :)

[Lazy Foo']

Ummm... Im not. There are the standard C socket programming libraries available, but no one will use that since:

The Xbox live network libraries are already pretty stable.

Its NOT that they CAN'T, but rather it is EASIER to use already prewritten code. That is fact. Im not saying they can't port over GGPO.Net style connection, but that it is easier to simply use prewritten XBL libraries. :)

Have you actually worked with the Xbox live libraries? Or any networking libraries?

[gozulin]

Ummm... Im not. There are the standard C socket programming libraries available, but no one will use that since:

The Xbox live network libraries are already pretty stable.

Its NOT that they CAN'T, but rather it is EASIER to use already prewritten code. That is fact. Im not saying they can't port over GGPO.Net style connection, but that it is easier to simply use prewritten XBL libraries. :)

So, you're saying it's never going to happen because it's easier to use the xbox live network libraries because they are already pretty stable and require less work?

Your argument is not particularly convincing but who knows, maybe you're right.

I think that it's possible that Capcom considered ggpo but they haven't mentionned it and Ono's comments on taking lag into account when designing the gameplay seem to point to an inhouse netcode team.

I wish they'd hire the ggpo guys and contrast that with their internal solution, out of humility. Online could make or break a franchise revival now that arcades are dead outside Japan.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Ummm... Im not. There are the standard C socket programming libraries available, but no one will use that since:

The Xbox live network libraries are already pretty stable.


So first, I'll begin by admitting that for the projects I've worked on I haven't been involved with the network programming side of things for the 360/PS3. So perhaps you can explain to me what these "network libraries" are and how they work? Because the only thing I see that you'd use for transferring game data in the 360 docs are sockets. So what's the scoop on this stuff you're talking about?

Secondly, let's assume that MS and Sony do indeed have higher-level networking libraries and I've simply overlooked them. Now please explain to me:

1. How would it be easier to abstract the differences in the 360/PS3/etc libraries vs. building your own wrapper around raw socket based transfer?

2. How these libraries, in any way, deal with compensating for lag in a fighting game?

3. If these libraries are so magically good, then why does the net code for Hyper Fighting on the 360 suck ass?



Its NOT that they CAN'T, but rather it is EASIER to use already prewritten code. That is fact. Im not saying they can't port over GGPO.Net style connection, but that it is easier to simply use prewritten XBL libraries. :)

GGPO is also already written. How is using one pre-written library, which is presumably tied to the XBox, easier than using a different pre-written library, which is more likely portable across platforms?

[COUM]

Capcom already said they're implementing a solution that's never been used before in a commercial fighting game for STHD, so clearly they're not using the standard libraries there, and are heavily hinting at GGPO or at least something like it. Why would SF4 be any different?

[Arxinal]

It must be done.

[JAMMAR]

Just registered at Capcom BBS for the new year to post over there. I support the cause.

[AaronS]

GGPO has my support.

[CarreauOverkill]

Look the latest 1UP gameshow whatever video. He says they're trying to conceal lag cleverly and building the entire core with online support in mind. Woot.

[nothingxs]

Look the latest 1UP gameshow whatever video. He says they're trying to conceal lag cleverly and building the entire core with online support in mind. Woot.

that doesn't mean you get to stay quiet about it

make some fucking noise, people

[misterpoon]

POSTING FOR PERFECT (or at least decent) ONLINE SF!

[Bobbypigo]

GGPO is fantastic!!

Will pay for GGPO ANYTIME!!!!!

Ponder is the fuckin man! Pimp dat GGPO!

[B.L. Pancho]

Yessir, been a while since I have been to this thread. Good thing it's still alive and stickied. Definately keep up the support.

[bcrt2000]

GGPO isn't the first network algorithm to implement prediction to reduce the effects of lag. This technology was used all the way back with QuakeWorld and Unreal Tournament 1. Its just that as people got broadband, developers were getting more and more lazy with their network code. I remember most EA Sports titles ran beautifully online from 2000-2004, and then they implemented new network code which was a lot simpler for 2005-2006, and it was extremely laggy. Look at what they did this year, many of their sports games allow you to play with 6-10 players online with acceptable gaming speed.

The theories and algorithms behind network prediction in games are already out in the open, its not a big secret. If Capcom puts the resources into it, they should be able to develop good network code for SFIV without the need of GGPO. In fact, they can probably do better than GGPO. GGPO is built without ever knowing the internal state of the game, whereas Capcom could use that to their advantage by reducing the amount of information needed to be transferred and improving prediction.

[Imitrex]

New here, and jumped on this right away. Put my post in favor of it, over there.

I am praying all future SF's will have amazing net code.

[BoggleMinds]

GGPO isn't the first network algorithm to implement prediction to reduce the effects of lag. This technology was used all the way back with QuakeWorld and Unreal Tournament 1. Its just that as people got broadband, developers were getting more and more lazy with their network code. I remember most EA Sports titles ran beautifully online from 2000-2004, and then they implemented new network code which was a lot simpler for 2005-2006, and it was extremely laggy. Look at what they did this year, many of their sports games allow you to play with 6-10 players online with acceptable gaming speed.

The theories and algorithms behind network prediction in games are already out in the open, its not a big secret. If Capcom puts the resources into it, they should be able to develop good network code for SFIV without the need of GGPO. In fact, they can probably do better than GGPO. GGPO is built without ever knowing the internal state of the game, whereas Capcom could use that to their advantage by reducing the amount of information needed to be transferred and improving prediction.

Well said. The fact that Capcom has much more resources and information about the internals of the game, compared to Ponder's efforts using save states, should point to netcode at least as good as GGPO's, if they choose to implement prediction ... which they must. :mad:

[Dark Symphony]

http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?t=20816

PLEASE POST OVER THERE IF YOU AGREE! WE NEED TO SHOW AS MUCH SUPPORT AS POSSIBLE FOR THIS IDEA IF WE ARE TO GET SOMETHING RESEMBLING GOOD NETPLAY, AND IT'S PRETTY MUCH UP TO US TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. MAKE EVERYONE YOU KNOW POST THAT EVEN SLIGHTLY GIVES A SHIT REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH OF AN APATHETIC JERK THEY ARE, THIS IS IMPORTANT AND I AM SURE YOU THINK THE SAME (EVEN IF YOU POST HERE GOING NO FUK U NXS LLOLOLOLOLO) -- GET THAT BALL ROLLING!

We're living pretty much in a time where arcades are no longer as economically feasible as they used to be. We're living in a time where people are beginning to reconsider the online solution as viable, and we have a clean example that this is, in fact, possible. Competition amongst friends is good, but people also want to play those they don't know, and we have moved away from arcades as a method of doing this, and are moving towards the internet.

http://ggpo.net

GGPO allows players to play Marvel VS Capcom and Street Fighter Alpha 2 online. More importantly, it allows players to play these games while enjoying no input delay and cleverly concealing lag through very interesting methods. This method of concealing lag allows for matches to be played almost as though people were sitting next to each other at the same console, with matches playing almost seamlessly.

It's important that this technology make it into SFIV, for both the fighting game community and for the more casual market as well.

Good, lagless matchmaking has pretty much been a pipe dream for as long as we think. The reason for this, I believe, is that games are not being coded with the idea of online support in mind. Instead, the games are built, and then online support is shoehorned in. For the GGPO netcode to work, I believe that serious considerations would have to be made for the game.

I personally believe that Capcom should seriously consider this for SF4, to the point even that they should closely work with the creators of GGPO to make this a reality. Nothing would make me happier than to enjoy SF4 online with friends and strangers, in a lagless, seamless environment. I think other players feel the same way.

Capcom, please make it so!


You know... I agree, but I find this post to be ridiculous.

It's akin to making a post saying "I would prefer good controls over bad controls."

Of course lagless online play would be a good. Why do we need a topic saying "we'd prefer something better over something worse?"

I think the melodramatic overstatement of the importance of online play is a little too much as well. Just say "I want it." Don't try to back it up with some big tirade overstating the economical impracticalities of arcades and the social ramifications of this and that.

Video Games flourished in the 80's and 90's. Sans online.

[supremebeing87]

We are so fucked and this proves it. -_-

Signing up and posting for support btw.
I love your sig.!

[SlothHands]

GGPO isn't the first network algorithm to implement prediction to reduce the effects of lag. This technology was used all the way back with QuakeWorld and Unreal Tournament 1. Its just that as people got broadband, developers were getting more and more lazy with their network code. I remember most EA Sports titles ran beautifully online from 2000-2004, and then they implemented new network code which was a lot simpler for 2005-2006, and it was extremely laggy. Look at what they did this year, many of their sports games allow you to play with 6-10 players online with acceptable gaming speed.

The theories and algorithms behind network prediction in games are already out in the open, its not a big secret. If Capcom puts the resources into it, they should be able to develop good network code for SFIV without the need of GGPO. In fact, they can probably do better than GGPO. GGPO is built without ever knowing the internal state of the game, whereas Capcom could use that to their advantage by reducing the amount of information needed to be transferred and improving prediction.

/thread

Well put. We don't need GGPO and Capcom doesn't too. They already confirmed they are designing SFIV with online play in mind. Maybe Capcom can hire some GGPO for some under payed programming.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Well put. We don't need GGPO and Capcom doesn't too.

If it was so easy to replicate GGPO-quality online play for fighters, then why is it that none of Capcom's previous efforts have come close? Also, consider that maybe it'd be cheaper to just license GGPO than to pay someone to program and debug and test a clone of it.

GGPO FTW!

[Dark Symphony]

If it was so easy to replicate GGPO-quality online play for fighters, then why is it that none of Capcom's previous efforts have come close? Also, consider that maybe it'd be cheaper to just license GGPO than to pay someone to program and debug and test a clone of it.

GGPO FTW!

Bad logic, there.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Bad logic, there.

Perhaps you could try to enlighten me instead of disagreeing with absolutely nothing to back it up? :confused:

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

If it was so easy to replicate GGPO-quality online play for fighters, then why is it that none of Capcom's previous efforts have come close?

Because they weren't making real effort. For starters, look at bcrt2000's post regarding how developers cut corners on the netcode. Then, look at the fact that most fighting games are made by Japan, for Japan - a quality online experience is obviously not a huge priority over there.

SF4 and HD Remix, on the other hand, are being made with the American audience in mind, hence the increased emphasis on online.

EDIT:

I think the melodramatic overstatement of the importance of online play is a little too much as well. Just say "I want it." Don't try to back it up with some big tirade overstating the economical impracticalities of arcades and the social ramifications of this and that.

Video Games flourished in the 80's and 90's. Sans online.

No, that is actually a very important part of it. The entire idea of going somewhere and paying to play video games is dying, so online is the future. Heck, even in Japan arcades are on the decline; it's an archaic concept, much like "renting" movies.

[SweetJohnnyV]

Because they weren't making real effort. For starters, look at bcrt2000's post regarding how developers cut corners on the netcode.


But that's basically my point. It takes a lot of hard work to make good net code. It's not a trivial thing to do.

Then, look at the fact that most fighting games are made by Japan, for Japan - a quality online experience is obviously not a huge priority over there.


That doesn't explain Hyper Fighting for the 360. This was made for the western audience. In fact, I don't even think it was released in Japan. And if I recall correctly, it was actually delayed for quite a while specifically to improve the net code. Yet today, even after a patch, it's really buggy and still doesn't approach GGPO's quality when it is working.


SF4 and HD Remix, on the other hand, are being made with the American audience in mind, hence the increased emphasis on online.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all suggesting that it's impossible for them to replicate the quality of GGPO. It just seems like a gamble and a lot of redundant work. I can't imagine the licensing fees for GGPO would be that high. So, I don't understand why they don't just license it. Seems like it could save them a lot of work and give them peace of mind that it'll play well. That's all I'm sayin.

[SlothHands]

It has nothing to do with making the game for japan or america. The fact is they did a lazy job on the network coding and the game wasn't made from the ground up to support online play in the first place. A possible a mere afterthought as I doubt capcom thought SFT on xbox 360 would sell like hotcakes.

[Jimmy Bones]

I got registered to Capcom BBS to support GGPO.

[PBalla]

any official word from Capcom regarding this yet?

[Ponder]

GGPO isn't the first network algorithm to implement prediction to reduce the effects of lag. This technology was used all the way back with QuakeWorld and Unreal Tournament 1.

GGPO doesn't work anything like those networking stacks. The techniques used in first person shooters are best used when you have a master server with an authoritative copy of the game nudging many clients using sophisticated prediction algorithms are back into reality as their version of the game state diverges. That solution is not ideal when you're dealing with a small number of players communicating over a fully connected peer-to-peer network (in Street Fighter's case, only 2 players). There are much simpler ways of doing the networking that give you results which are just as good.

The theories and algorithms behind network prediction in games are already out in the open, its not a big secret. If Capcom puts the resources into it, they should be able to develop good network code for SFIV without the need of GGPO.

Theoretically anyone could produce networking code just as good as GGPO or better. In practice, no one ever has in the modern era. This in-spite of the resurgence of arcade-style games with networking support, especially on XBox Live. Why do you think this is?

One reason is that implementing the networking code is only 10% of the problem. The other 90% is tuning it to handle real internet latencies. Traditionally game companies targeting consoles have not invested the resources to do that tuning. How would you even do it when your game is only limited to people would can download it on PartnerNet? Capcom is taking a huge step in this direction by releasing a network-test of STHD with Commando 3, but even this is sparse testing compared to GGPO which has been running a public alpha test for over 6 months involving over a million games played all over the world.

I believe with a very high degree of confidence that the way GGPO handles the networking for this class of games is the absolute right way to do it. In practice, you don't want the networking code tinkering with the innermost details of your game engine. A game developer would much rather have a game-independent networking engine that can work for all their arcade-style titles rather than having to custom build the networking support over and over again. Factor in the fact that the networking code in question is very well tested and you've got a clear winner.

In fact, they can probably do better than GGPO. GGPO is built without ever knowing the internal state of the game, whereas Capcom could use that to their advantage by reducing the amount of information needed to be transferred and improving prediction.
This statement leads me to believe that you really don't know how GGPO works.

[power333]

Anybody who has played all kinds of online games knows that nothing else can hold a candle to GGPO, like we can easily see by the opinions on Capcom BBS.

I played all kinds of online fighting before and GGPO beats all FPS easily, and I mean very easily. Any comparison is foolish.

However, when I say this I'm referring to builds 21 and 22. I don't know what exactly is happening with the new builds, and most people aparently believe it is a server overload. It would be really nice if Ponder can clarify to us what exactly is now being tested right now. Today, GGPO is still very good, but it is not as impressive as it was in early builds, and that offline feeling is not the same anymore. Hence why I stopped playing after KoF98 got implemented.

I can't believe that Capcom would choose anything else if they can have GGPO Build 21's performance. The only plausible reason would be that Capcom does not think that perfect online netplay is that important, which would be a shame.

BTW, I hate how the crazy-ass Sakura petition has more people than the perfect netplay petition at their BBS

[Aqua Snake]

Done.

...and done.

[dbycrash]

BTW, I hate how the crazy-ass Sakura petition has more people than the perfect netplay petition at their BBS

sakura has become the defacto character for scrubs that want to feel like they aren't scrubs... hence the one or two tactics they always give sakura to make her braindead easy and an viable option to win even if you have a median knowledge of gameplay.

[Dark Symphony]

The reason this topic/thread/petition is a right fanboyish and goofy and loses some credibility is because it's asking for GGPO.

It should be asking only for great online play. We, as consumers, should really only be concerned with the QUALITY of online play.

We could use GGPO as a comparison or whatever. But asking SPECIFICALLY for GGPO and becoming irate when people suggest that such things probably won't be acheived THROUGH GGPO is nothing but fanboy ridiculousness. You can't see past your own gimmick.

We should be asking for great online play. We SHOULDN'T be concerned about HOW. What with being the consumer. That just makes it fanboyish. It's not, like, a soundtrack or something where you want a usual composer.



Now, I know people try to justify such a stance saying "Capcom has proven that they CAN'T do good netcode because they haven't" which is illogical and stupid. It's like saying Squaresoft CAN'T make a good fighting game because they never have. It's not that they can't. It's that that's not where they focus.

We should just ask Capcom to focus heavily on GREAT ONLINE PLAY.

Who cares how they do it?

Those who do are just ridiculous. Makes the plight no better than the Sakura topic.

[power333]

The reason this topic/thread/petition is a right fanboyish and goofy and loses some credibility is because it's asking for GGPO.

It should be asking only for great online play. We, as consumers, should really only be concerned with the QUALITY of online play.

We could use GGPO as a comparison or whatever. But asking SPECIFICALLY for GGPO and becoming irate when people suggest that such things probably won't be acheived THROUGH GGPO is nothing but fanboy ridiculousness. You can't see past your own gimmick.

We should be asking for great online play. We SHOULDN'T be concerned about HOW. What with being the consumer. That just makes it fanboyish. It's not, like, a soundtrack or something where you want a usual composer.



Now, I know people try to justify such a stance saying "Capcom has proven that they CAN'T do good netcode because they haven't" which is illogical and stupid. It's like saying Squaresoft CAN'T make a good fighting game because they never have. It's not that they can't. It's that that's not where they focus.

We should just ask Capcom to focus heavily on GREAT ONLINE PLAY.

Who cares how they do it?

Those who do are just ridiculous. Makes the plight no better than the Sakura topic.



The petition is actually for the perfect netplay that Capcom never ever came even close to get. But I find your point disturbing. I guess you just like Sakura.

Would you buy cancer meds developed by Square?

Would you pre-buy a videogame console developed by Square?

Would you bet all your money in that the next Square fighting game will own all other fighting games?

I'd say no, no and no. Farmaceutical companies have a better record of developing safe meds than Square. So does videogame companies for consoles. So does Capcom and others for fighting games. Yes. It may be possible that Square develops a cure for cancer, or an unbeatable console, or the perfect fighting game, like it is possible that Capcom is secretly testing a netcode as good or better than ggpo with 20 thousand players and more than a million matches. It just not very likely.

If you trust then, and trus the possible, you probably would trust Daigo to give you brain surgery. True. Daigo has no previous success with brain surgery attempts, but come on. It's possible that he will get it right.

[Dark Symphony]

The petition is actually for the perfect netplay that Capcom never ever came even close to get. But I find your point disturbing. I guess you just like Sakura.

There is no inkling of my opinion about Sakura in my post. Please learn to comprehend simple words before responding.

Would you buy cancer meds developed by Square?

No because they don't make Cancer meds. And if they did and I wanted them, i'd buy them. I'd want them to be good. I wouldn't make it my business to tell them how to make it good. If they're good, word. If not, i'll look for them elsewhere. If I can't get them from Square but I want them from square, well dang it. I want a good Mortal Kombat from Midway but it's not happening. I wouldn't think to go off and tell them to go get outside help or to petition them to get Capcom to make their games. I'd just concede that Midway isn't making MK games that have good gameplay. EOS. That's it. Look elsewhere. If I wanted them to come up with better gameplay, i'd say "Hey, Midway, make better gameplay."

Really wouldn't care how they go about it.

Would you pre-buy a videogame console developed by Square?

I would have done so for the Sony Playstation if I had the money and wasn't, you know, young and jobless at the time. Even though it was their first foray into video games. Man, THAT would have been a mistake, eh? I mean, the Playstation went NOWHERE.(...)



Would you bet all your money in that the next Square fighting game will own all other fighting games?

Nice wordplay there. Would you bet all your money ANY new FG will own all other FGs? No. Or maybe you would. but that would just make you ridiculous.

I will say, however, that I believe that Square has the resources to make a good fighting game if they decided to actually put the effort in.

See, a lot of bigger companies fail in certain regards because they don't put the resources or backing behind certain endeavors. I won't believe for a second that Capcom was really 100% concerned with online play in previous games and that they tried and tried and tried and just COULDN'T come up with anything. I think they just didn't. Like how they don't have any AAA sports titles on the market. They just didn't focus on that.

Anniversary collection has two of Capcom's best fighting games included, in my opinion. Good vs play. Not very much to offer for single player. What, Capom can't make a good single player game? Or they just didn't....

That's what you all are failing to see.

I'd say no, no and no. Farmaceutical companies have a better record of developing safe meds than Square. So does videogame companies for consoles. So does Capcom and others for fighting games. Yes. It may be possible that Square develops a cure for cancer, or an unbeatable console, or the perfect fighting game, like it is possible that Capcom is