The Introduction of Character Individuality (gameplay system)

[Daemos]

Let's entertain this idea for a second. For the longest time, in virtually all SF games, all characters had the same tactical movesets (eg dashes) and all of them virtually utilized their super meters in the same fashion and even charged up their super meter in the same fashion. I am proposing a more individualized system, that makes you feel like playing every character is a different experience all together.

For example, remember how Vega (claw) was the only character in SF2 that could climb up the walls of his stage? Imagine if every character had not one but several unique things just like this (not necessarily special moves and not specifically related to their stage).

Even the way the super meter is charged could be different and each meter would give characters different abilities. I like the idea of grapplers having shorter meters than other characters for example.

I can see that the only problem with this idea is balance is harder to obtain. However, it would also offer players the chance to play characters differently than ever before. Think of this as each character has their own unique "groove" like CVS2.

[Silks]

oh boy... here we go

[UCRJesse]

Yeah Daemos, it was called "CAPCOM FIGHTING JAM." Did you play it?

[randomsuper]

it sounds like a recipe for a beyond broken character.

[Daemos]

Yeah Daemos, it was called "CAPCOM FIGHTING JAM." Did you play it?


Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Fighting Jam very balanced? (ingrid aside).

[scentless]

it sounds like a recipe for a beyond broken character.

Exactly, the more individuality the characters have, the harder it is to balance the game.

[Daemos]

I believe that has been established in the first post, we're merely entertaining this idea. hmph :(

[polarity]

Yet Hyper Fighting, which has the least universal features of any SF, is one of if not THE most balanced SF around.

I think it's a great idea. Takes the game back to being about learning unique strategies for each matchup, and each character is truly different, not just a variation on a similar theme. A lot pf people seem incapable of imagining a game without tons of universal systems, which is sad because you get a lot more content in a game where every character is more unique.

I agree, do away with universal systems, and anything that has been a universal system in the past, give to a specific character instead. Make the game about matchups between radically different characters, not which characters can best exploit the system to their advantage.

[Arsenal]

If you went this route, you'd have to think long and hard about how it'll effect gameplay overall and the useability of the characters. Also, where do you "draw the line"? Will you take away blocking from one character and give him some insane offensive option? Will you take away somebody's vertical movement and give him some insane horizontal movement instead? There are some tenants in SF that, imo, should not be touched and should be accessible to all characters; jump, block, walk, throw (and throw tech), normals, special normals, and special moves. Everything else can be character specific, but you'd have to make sure one character didn't rape the rest of the case for free... think Jedah in CFE. His mobility, which virtually nobody else had, was insane. Yeah, he didn't hit hard per hit, but because of his mobility and range, it didn't matter.

[Daidoji Kage]

Exactly, the more individuality the characters have, the harder it is to balance the game.

Guilty Gear aborts your statement.

GG has wildly individualistic characters and balances it by giving them two reliable, universal 'outs': Dead Angle and Burst. Of course all this adds up to the game being on one holy fuck of a steep learning curve, but, whatever...

[Demon Dash]

Yeah, it's just a broken character waiting to happen, like Toki for example...

[Arsenal]

Guilty Gear aborts your statement.

Yes, I agree. To all the anti-parry people asking for more character indivduality, and for the pro-parry people asking for more universal systems, GG is your answer.

[hubcapsignstop]

hahaa
of course it may be more complicated to balance
but damn; wont it make the game more interesting and fun?
im sure capcom could take the easy route and just make all the characters the same
that shit would be balanced as hell

i strongly support the cause;
increase character individuality and minimize the presence of universal systems

[The Mullah]

As has been covered in other threads, a fair number of people would like to see this. some chars should have supers, some shouldn't, some should be able to dash, others shouldn't, some should be able to whiff for meter others shouldn't.

It was a posititve aspect of cvs2 to face off against a character with airblock when i had the ability to jd and run, it was fun playing vs urien when his gameplan had to revolve around his unblockable whereas my ken was able to play in any conventional way. i know all chars have to play a certain way to some extent, but when it's BIG differences it is interesting.

If the dev team has the skill to do so, they should have totally individual characters. Some shouldbe designed to play differently from others, others should be more generic in their abilities.

[Arsenal]

But where do you draw the line? Do you take away/add basic gameplay tenants like jump and block? Or do you simply focusing on special moves and supers?

[UltraDavid]

Obviously you draw the line somewhere before removing the ability to move around in a toward-back and up-down arena.

But yeah, I'm all for crazily different characters. Hyper Fighting, my favorite game ever, had a remarkably different cast, and yet as Polarity said, it was the most balanced. And Guilty Gear, another example of wildly different characters, and you don't even need some of the game systems GG has to balance them. It can be done, no doubt about that, and that it makes a game more interesting I think is hard to dispute.

[The Mullah]

both, or either. Everygame has has an element of homogeneity to it that contributes to the general feel of the game. The line would be crossed only when characters are so different that they no longer have that sf4 feel.

[DevilJin 01]

Discussion is good for your health.

[polarity]

But where do you draw the line? Do you take away/add basic gameplay tenants like jump and block? Or do you simply focusing on special moves and supers?

I think if you start messing with too many fundamentals you run the risk of making characters feel like gimmicks. I dunno, I'd really have to see it in practice to be sure, but if you start removing options we take as a given you might end up dictating to the player "this is the way this character must be played" which isn't much fun. Better to make characters unique by giving them stuff, not taking it away, I think.

Honestly despite all my complaints about universal systems the issue really isn't the systems themselves but how powerful the characters are in relation to them. Like, Marvel and GG have a lot of universal systems but it's totally warranted because the characters have so many ridiculously powerful options that it makes sense to just give everyone a basic way to defend against certain things. Importantly, though, the systems aren't so powerful that they overwhelm character-specific solutions to the same problems.

SF is a relatively reserved game compared to Marvel and GG though, so the need for a lot of systems to counter bullshit isn't really necessary - block, jump, walk and throw (when throwing was actually a defensive option) do the job well enough.

[azis]

All Ideas can be tested.

Since nothing get broken, we can add this.

We already had, like Chun's c/f+Hk and the wall bounce with some characters. Every single character has an unique characteristic, like, in CVS2 for more examples, Roll duration, roll distance, height of jumps, priorities, distance of Jump (think in Bison), duration of jump (think Vega vs Dhalsim jumping speed).

The ideas are to make sort of this, it was how SF progressed, like when Ken was just a blond Ryu, now he has fire on shoryuken, and Ryu speed fireballs. The idea is to make characters different to become suitable to the player style.

We have characters with fireball, no fireballs fat and strong, strong and lazy, monster-like, assassin, ninjas...

Think about this, SF4 should have the same tendency. But I don't think in changes for the classic characters, although some changes would be nice. But for newcomers, this should be really an issue that matters.

[spudlyff8fan]

guilty gear, plz

Fixed.

[Shin Sho-oh-ken]

Wait, why would super meters be shorter for grapplers?

[mepaphoros]

I liken this mentality to a strategy based PC game like Warhammer.

All the races are VASTLY different and unique, but they play-test so much they're all relatively equal.

[SaBrE]

i think basic fundamentals that we all know should be universal (air block, dashing/run).

but other than the absolute basics being universal. I totally dig the more individualistic approach, like I've been preaching in the other threads. It makes the game more interesting and just gives the game a lot more to offer. using GGXX as an example since this game does this idea best, I cant just randomly pick characters I dont use and automatically do well or have a general feel for the character i just randomly picked. in games like sf, you get that general feeling across the entire roster on what to do, there are exception characters.

gives the game a more natural feel of variety and gameplay depth per characters. a lot of stuff you learn for a character in ggxx, will not translate over to another character in the roster, at all. in sf and other games. you can carry over ideas/fundamentals/strategies from character to character most of the time. Not saying it will be equally effective, dont get me wrong here. theres still a great deal to learn with each character in every game. i just think games like ggxx, for example, takes it much further on individuality. And I am definitely for that

[The Mullah]

I think if you start messing with too many fundamentals you run the risk of making characters feel like gimmicks. I dunno, I'd really have to see it in practice to be sure, but if you start removing options we take as a given you might end up dictating to the player "this is the way this character must be played" which isn't much fun. Better to make characters unique by giving them stuff, not taking it away, I think.

aren't chars like zangief designed to be played a certain way? His speed is limited, his maneuverability is limited, he has no fireballs, no decent anti air, yet he has a big command grab etc to make up for it. if you enjoy playing that way he's a great character to play.

i think designing chars to play a certain way can work, even if it means removing stuff.

You and goodm0urning are a refreshing pair when it comes to discussion about sf4.

spuddlyff8fan - it was so nice when you stopped posting for a while, please, you're so boring, contrived and unfunny.

[Xorcist]

hahaa
of course it may be more complicated to balance
but damn; wont it make the game more interesting and fun?
im sure capcom could take the easy route and just make all the characters the same
that shit would be balanced as hell

i strongly support the cause;
increase character individuality and minimize the presence of universal systems

I agree, and it's one of the reasons I love Garou: Mark of the wolves. And to sight example it's a very balanced game. Every character has a very different play style. Certain characters dash while others run. Some have long jump ability, some can wall jump, other's can't to either. Some characters even have an extra "hidden" supers (like Jenet's which requires her to perform it as a Guard Cancel). But every character is also given a basic set of universal options like Just Defend and T.O.P. attacks. So universal options aren't completely out in my book. The game should have a "central" game-play system, characters could then be given options on top of that.

It would be nice to see SF4 take note and give each character a bit more uniqueness in terms of play-style. Even if that means more developement time to balance the game right. They did it a little with Alpha 3, so why not continue the trend in more depth. But please please stay away from grooves and or other "selectable" options.

P.S. I'd really like to see some command counters show up too.

[BBCampbell]

They've been doing this ever since the first Street Fighter: They're called move-lists.

Take the original 8 from SFII:

Ryu, Ken, Guile and Dhalsim had fireballs, the other 4 didn't.
Dhalsim could extend his normals to hit other fighters from across the screen.
Zangief had an insanely damaging command grab.
Chun Li could bounce off walls
Blanka and Honda had fast, charging moves that covered a lot of distance...

The list goes on...

Vega climbing his stage was part of his movelist. You could see this in the SNES version with a Game Genie as you could make Vega climb air in any stage.

[Kyokugen]

I can kinda see how this would go. It'd be cool if, for example... the rushdown character had run, while the grappler had dash... only the ninja guy can airblock, only the Aikido practitioner has parry (not 3S parry :O), etc. etc.

It could be cool, I guess.

[SaBrE]

BBC: i think you miss the point. we know theres individuality with characters, but theres also that basic aspect that applies to almost all characters. ggxx, while there is a basic function that revolves around all characters, its dramatically less so.

im also speaking upon individualistic sub-engines. like how ggxx, order sol has a second meter for his specials. johnny has his coins (limited amount) that level up his mist finers. aba blood packet stocks. robo ky completely having a different meter than everyone and it functions in a completely different matter. jam having to store "cards" to beef up and dramatically change some of her moves. zappa and his orb building. the list goes on and on.

these things make the characters very very different. granted i will admit, in ggxx, giving pretty much every character an iad makes it kinda generic at the same time heh.

[polarity]

aren't chars like zangief designed to be played a certain way? His speed is limited, his maneuverability is limited, he has no fireballs, no decent anti air, yet he has a big command grab etc to make up for it. if you enjoy playing that way he's a great character to play.

i think designing chars to play a certain way can work, even if it means removing stuff.

Yeah, you're right about Zangief. I dunno, the idea of having characters that are made unique by not being able to block or jump or whatever just makes me uneasy for some reason. It's more of a gut reaction I can't really explain - maybe it would work out fine. I guess my issue with it is that most universal systems are to some degree customizable, so you can make them bad without removing them completely. Like, say you want to make a character who's a total rushdown machine if he gets in, but he can't jump - why not just make his jump really crappy? At least that way it's still something and it might turn out to be useful in some obscure emergent situation, rather than having nothing at all.

edit: Actually now that I think about it I really like the idea of a character having a very low to the ground jump that travels very little distance (like, you can't even jump over FBs with it) - it'd make it really hard to get in on zoning characters but once he gets in he could use it short hop style to do powerful high/low mixups. That'd be cool. :D

[randomsuper]

i just want the newest version of street fighter to be street fighter. if i wanted somethink like guilty gear, i'd play guilty gear. it's one thing to improve on a game and add elements to make it better/more enjoyable, but if you create something that doesn't stick to the original formula, there's no point calling it street fighter. for that, anime the characters up with funny clothes and zany hair and call it something else, because it definately won't be street fighter.

[polarity]

i just want the newest version of street fighter to be street fighter. if i wanted somethink like guilty gear, i'd play guilty gear. it's one thing to improve on a game and add elements to make it better/more enjoyable, but if you create something that doesn't stick to the original formula, there's no point calling it street fighter. for that, anime the characters up with funny clothes and zany hair and call it something else, because it definately won't be street fighter.

Christ, way to completely miss his fucking point.

[SaBrE]

yeah you totally missed the point randomsuper =/

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I respect Guilty Gear an amazing amount and wish i could play the thing but I don't have the time, nor ethe reaction skills for half of what it takes to play Guilty Gear heh. I can't do twoframe FRCs andthe like but i do understand the concept of making them unique.

I hope they would choose systems that don't make the game amazingly complicated to learn. the diffrece between a run and a dash i can live with I even like the idea (though Garou already did this I might as well play that) but i hope it doesn't get to the point of making the game so complicated that its hard to fid people to play with.

SFII had the following it did for many reasons but one of those reasons was that anyone could get into it. You only had to spend about a month with it before you could start deffeating people at the arcade and it helped build the comunity.

I think what I'm getting at is that in Guilty Gear not only do you have to know how your own subsystem works but you have to know how everyone elses sub system works just to fight them and build strats that involve shutting them and their own subsystem down.This is in no way a bad thing but for a lot of people its a complication that requires one spend a lot more time with the game before they can begin actually playig it.

So I'm for diffrent subsystems but ot for them to be so deep that itsdifficult to grasp the game.

Diffrent runs, dashes and jumps is great but havving to shut HOS down on Charges or Johnny on coins type systems might be a bit to much for something like Street Fighter which in my mind has always been the peoples fighter.

[EDIT] Polarity Holy Order Sol in Guilty Gear plays exactly like that. Hes heavy rush down ad has a very low jump, to the point you have to high jump get over some stuff. I spent some time with GG to learn it wasn't for me heh.

[Shiro887]

I like the variety of characters there have been in the SF games. Just because they may not have extra or different super meters (well 3S kinda did) or orb collecting or something doesn't mean that all the characters play the same.

Remove (or at least quit making) so many of the shoto clones and that should help (except Sakura!). I wouldn't mind if SF4 had a "groove"-esque system added to it, but then again if you're gonna do that, then why not make CvS3 :D

If anything, why not make something like Alpha 3 and 3S combined or something? o_O; idk

[polarity]

I think the main issue isn't that SF characters don't play differently enough (well, at least pre-Alpha 3 and SF3) because you do see a lot of variance, but rather that there are more potential character styles out there that haven't be utilized in SF yet. Like, you could have a character who can place multiple stationary projectiles on the screen to control space, a character who focuses more on running away and winning by time out than actually doing damage, a character with a lot of air maneuverability and great air-to-air priority but poor air-to-ground priority who has to force you to jump to do any real damage, etc. There's lots of different potential play styles no game has really considered yet.

[buyproduct]

I dont understand. If you make a character play a certain way, a game becomes boring and the strategies become limited in my honest opinion. This is why I disliked capcom fighting evolution. I was a zangeif player and felt most of the street fighter 2 cast was nerfed. These guys fell victim to parries, dashes, air blocks, alpha counters, on the ground attacks and level up health increases. I felt the game would of played alot better and allowed for more stategies if some aspects of the sub system were shared by everybody.

Making characters have an individual style that forces them to play a certain way severly limits what the character can do. If he had the same options everyone else had, he could still play the same way he was forced to play before but now he has more attack and defensive options. It reminds me of that Daigo-Choi sagat mirror match. It was boring and painful to watch because O.Sagat was forced to play a certain way to be effective .


What I woudnt mind would be subset sytem designed to work for certain playstyles. A groove system. So I can choose weather to play a rushdown gief or a turtle gief. I would like to choose how I play not be forced to play a certain way.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

But thats the limits of the characters strengths classing with eachother.

And CFJs problem atleast with the SFII cast was that it was an outdated system being put up against far supior systems. SFII characters had no busess being paired up with with guys who Alpha Counters and parries as they had nothing to defend agaisnt it. But CFJ isnt a very good game to begin with.

[Episode_667]

I would also say that the Rumble Fish series is a great example of having few characters, but each of them are very unique. In some instances that's accomplished by giving each character a separate "key mechanic", like Boyd's finger points or Lud's heat gauge, but in other cases it's just a matter of good character design, and getting away from the traditional fighting game archetypes, something both GG and RF do well, whereas IMHO 3S still stuck to the same fighting game conventions we've seen for years - you have the shoto character(s), the Guile, the grappler, etc.

Granted they did try to change things around to keep things fresh, like giving Ken ways to fake his kicks (and more uses for kicks in general), and not making Necro an exact Dhalsim copy, and I do like a lot of the SF3 character designs, but in a way the characters felt like their SF2 counterparts with a new coat of paint, something I don't get as much from RF or GG.

[ElderGOD]

Reduce meter length for grapplers?

Are you insane? Imagine Hugo's gigas breaker bar being half as short...

Necro was supposed to combine Dhalsim and Blanka.

[Shin Sho-oh-ken]

How different do you want them to be?

Do you want Ryu's JAB to do what a FIERCE does? While Ken's SHORT does what a ROUNDHOUSE does? Akuma's STRONG sweeps the opponent?

lol?

[randomsuper]

i don't think i missed anything. i just don't want there to be all this character specific bar and other crap that guilty gear players seem to like so much. it changes the game drastically in a way i don't like.

[Daidoji Kage]

i just want the newest version of street fighter to be street fighter. if i wanted somethink like guilty gear, i'd play guilty gear. it's one thing to improve on a game and add elements to make it better/more enjoyable, but if you create something that doesn't stick to the original formula, there's no point calling it street fighter. for that, anime the characters up with funny clothes and zany hair and call it something else, because it definately won't be street fighter.

What exactly is 'Street Fighter' then?

[polarity]

yeah having to learn unique matchups and really know your character is gay as hell

[ElderGOD]

i just don't want there to be all this character specific bar and other crap that guilty gear players seem to like so much.
it changes the game drastically in a way i don't like.

Agreed, will help make balancing easier as well.

[hubcapsignstop]

I dont understand. If you make a character play a certain way, a game becomes boring and the strategies become limited in my honest opinion. This is why I disliked capcom fighting evolution. I was a zangeif player and felt most of the street fighter 2 cast was nerfed. These guys fell victim to parries, dashes, air blocks, alpha counters, on the ground attacks and level up health increases. I felt the game would of played alot better and allowed for more stategies if some aspects of the sub system were shared by everybody.

Making characters have an individual style that forces them to play a certain way severly limits what the character can do. If he had the same options everyone else had, he could still play the same way he was forced to play before but now he has more attack and defensive options. It reminds me of that Daigo-Choi sagat mirror match. It was boring and painful to watch because O.Sagat was forced to play a certain way to be effective .


What I woudnt mind would be subset sytem designed to work for certain playstyles. A groove system. So I can choose weather to play a rushdown gief or a turtle gief. I would like to choose how I play not be forced to play a certain way.

you just madd cuz gief got nerfed hahaa
and he was in a magicval land with level upping dinosaurs and long range weoponfighters

CFE seems to be everyones trump card against this increased character individuality philosophy while there are other stellar examples of this philosophy working well
CFE was a worthy concept in my opinoin
just horrible execution; the game was a smash-bang afterthought every way you look at it, so of course it was crap, especially since you fav chars were nerfed

and...
i dislike fixed groove systems
picking from a subset of universal options seems like a cop out to balancing the game imo
i know many will disagree with me; i still have fun with CVS2 though
just dont like the idea of having a few fixed grooves, maybe becuase it makes the gameplay somewhat more interesting at the expense of the characters
just seems like an unattractive solution to me
i am against customizing a characters attributes to fit a players style
i dont know
i like just using what tools are given to me and figuring out how to use them in clever ways to my advantage
not that you cant do the same thing with grooves
i dont know
agree to disagree
just my opinion

How different do you want them to be?

Do you want Ryu's JAB to do what a FIERCE does? While Ken's SHORT does what a ROUNDHOUSE does? Akuma's STRONG sweeps the opponent?

lol?
what is so crazy about havning normals go against such strict arbitrary conventions?
in SF3:
hugos cr.forward sweeps
makoto's cr.HP sweeps
what are you getting at?

[randomsuper]

yeah having to learn unique matchups and really know your character is gay as hell

i never said gay. i just like playing games with a system that everyone works with, and then learning the match ups and your character and blah blah blah. all i know is that within those multiple systems or whatever, there is always one that is way too dominant and that of course becomes top tier and boring and it becomes way too difficlut to compete with anything but that.

[polarity]

Agreed, will help make balancing easier as well.

why do the people who like 3S always argue against uniqueness in favor of balance when 3S is one of the most homogenous games and also one of the worst balanced

you people who are obsessed with balance are boring as fuck anyway. make the game fun first, worry about balance later.

[Kyokugen]

I can't believe CFE really existed. It was like MUGEN. Who seriously thought characters using say... SF2's systems would be able to compete about dial-a-combos from Darkstalkers?

It would've been a better indication if characters had similar priorities, could land the same links from their respective games, etc. Urien was so much worse in that game than he was in 3S...

[ElderGOD]

you people who are obsessed with balance are boring as fuck anyway. make the game fun first, worry about balance later.


I already have Marvel for that.

[General Deamond]

why do the people who like 3S always argue against uniqueness in favor of balance when 3S is one of the most homogenous games and also one of the worst balanced

you people who are obsessed with balance are boring as fuck anyway. make the game fun first, worry about balance later.

This shit is madness!!!

[Daidoji Kage]

I can't believe CFE really existed. It was like MUGEN. Who seriously thought characters using say... SF2's systems would be able to compete about dial-a-combos from Darkstalkers?

It would've been a better indication if characters had similar priorities, could land the same links from their respective games, etc. Urien was so much worse in that game than he was in 3S...

Sorry, but what the hell do you know about the game anyway?

I'm guessing nothing since your comparison of Urien to his 3S incarnation is entirely without merit.

Was the game bad? No, not really. It wasn't bad in the way that everyone made it out to be. CFE was a let down from what we thought we were getting. It was ugly, it was a rehash, it was actually a decent game that got literally hated to death.

CFE was as counter-character oriented as ST. Want to be able to spot someone who knows fuck nothing about CFE? Wait to see if they bitch about DS characters. The character specific mechanics did not make the death of CFE, it was the "small" cast and reused sprites that did it in.

[polarity]

"worry about balance later" doesn't mean balance shouldn't be an issue, but i'd much rather see a fun but broken game than a boring balanced one...some of you guys evidently don't feel the same which i think is disturbing

[tataki]

the balance will be added in SF4 reload

some ppl here: "if it will be interesting and unique and fun it won't be street fighter anymore!"

[randomsuper]

why do the people who like 3S always argue against uniqueness in favor of balance when 3S is one of the most homogenous games and also one of the worst balanced

you people who are obsessed with balance are boring as fuck anyway. make the game fun first, worry about balance later.

because broken games aren't fun. no game will ever be truly balanced and i don't expect it to be, but the opposite is fucking boring because it's the same shit every game.

some ppl here: let's do shit that's been done in other games that play almost completely different because it might be cool in this one!

[Radiantsilvergun3]

But we all know SF4 will get atleast 2 updates to help balance things out (Though 3rd Strike isnt much to show for this) so make it fun first. Balance it later.

[randomsuper]

an update would definately be a good thing since no matter what side of the fence you're on it's almost guaranteed to be flawed the first time around. i just hope there's enough support to make an update worth doing to capcom.

[SaBrE]

broken games are much more fun than boring balanced games. balanced games tend to nerf everything, making everything once fun, more restrictive. id rather play an unbalanced fun game than a balanced boring game as well. if we can do balance and fun tho, im all for it, obviously. but i know what polarity is saying

[Hellion]

Yeah, you're right about Zangief.

edit: Actually now that I think about it I really like the idea of a character having a very low to the ground jump that travels very little distance (like, you can't even jump over FBs with it) - it'd make it really hard to get in on zoning characters but once he gets in he could use it short hop style to do powerful high/low mixups. That'd be cool. :D

They kind of "force" you to play characters a certain way anyway, think Akuma lately with his fucked up vitality and all that. Even now he still has his air fireball (also toned down, but no less excellent) and his otherworldly ability to combo anything from everthing.

[lexicon of rage]

I have mixed feelings about this.

On one hand, it's street fighter. Don't mess with a good thing.

On the other hand, fucking nobody should be able to jump as high as Elena, she's a negress.

[Shin Sho-oh-ken]

"worry about balance later" doesn't mean balance shouldn't be an issue, but i'd much rather see a fun but broken game than a boring balanced one...some of you guys evidently don't feel the same which i think is disturbing

For some reason you can't seem to realize that a game can be both fun and balanced at the same time, which I find disturbing.

[SnickerSnack]

For some reason you can't seem to realize that a game can be both fun and balanced at the same time, which I find disturbing.

You completely missed his point.

[Nickoten]

I'm all for it. I don't mean we should, say, give certain characters only 3 buttons to attack with, I think there should be a limit and a set of abilities that every character should possess no matter what, but the less homogenized the characters are, the better. And hey, they'll have plenty of time to balance the game, so why worry about it? That's what revisions are for, or patches if they go that route.

[Henaki]

I can't believe CFE really existed. It was like MUGEN. Who seriously thought characters using say... SF2's systems would be able to compete about dial-a-combos from Darkstalkers?

It would've been a better indication if characters had similar priorities, could land the same links from their respective games, etc. Urien was so much worse in that game than he was in 3S...

Urien was like the 3rd best character in CFJ while hes like the 9th in 3s.

what

Individuality is good. I like playing a character that's totally different from someone else's. Right now I can pretty much learn any 3s character to a mid level in about four seconds. It takes me like a month to even consider knowing a new GG character.

Not to mention if there's a huge balance issue that isn't found until a year after release, Capcom should hopefully be smart enough to release a patch for it. While I generally dislike patches for the "fix now and patch later oh sorry i mean never" attitude in the game industry, when used properly they are very good for a games health.

[goodm0urning]

But where do you draw the line? Do you take away/add basic gameplay tenants like jump and block? Or do you simply focusing on special moves and supers?There are certain things that have always been in Street Fighter, every single time--ground blocking, walking, jumping, specials, the three punch/three kick scheme, and so forth. Everything else, you can remove and still possibly have a game that is uniquely Street Fighter, but those core fundamentals must stay. I would also argue for the inclusion of more recent innovations like buffering (the happiest accident in the history of fighting games) and SF's throw/hold system.

Everything else should be rightly thought of as transitory and open to experimentation. The more restrictions you heap on, the more old stuff you require the games to keep, and the bigger the chance you stand of hindering progress and getting a rehash of what we've already got. Capcom has a good history with its rehash, but I'm looking for something more this time.


On another subject...

Some people here smoke fucking crack, I swear. The train of logic is so absurd. "You can't give each character their own 100% unique systems because that would be like CFE! I don't want to play CFE, I want to play Street Fighter!" "I don't want such and such option, because Guilty Gear has that option and I don't want Street Fighter to turn into Guilty Gear!" You DO understand that introducing one element similar to another game into Street Fighter won't automatically turn EVERY feature of Street Fighter into that game... right? You do understand that your reasoning here has no basis in logic, and that your conclusions are unfounded and have jack shit to do with anything... right?

I had one guy tell me in another thread that Street Fighter can't have fireballs with a 3D spread, because that would be like Dragon Ball, and Street Fighter characters have no business standing that far apart or jumping that high. What the fuck?


On yet another subject...

Some of the arguments in favor of balance here are downright comical. One example that gets cited a lot is 3rd Strike. They say that it's no fun, that you can only really win with three characters, because the game is so poorly balanced. Guess what? The game with theoretical perfect balance might as well have only three characters! In order to perfectly balance a fighting game, the system would have to be so homogenized that you'd essentially be playing a dozen variations of the same characters, dressed up in different sprites.

If you ignore every tier from upper-mid on down--which, some people claim, is exactly what happens in real competitive play--then 3rd Strike becomes that perfectly balanced game you're asking for. So what are you complaining about?

In order to remain interesting, a fighting game must be at least slightly unbalanced, in order to make room for the variety in playing styles that makes one character worth playing over another character. Like ST, for example.

[lexicon of rage]

Wait.
No. Not at all. Different characters have different styles so that different players will want to play them. Charge characters play differently than shotos because, well, some people like to charge.

[randomsuper]

god forbid someone want a return to a more traditional street fighter format. :rolleyes:

[jabhadouken]

"worry about balance later" doesn't mean balance shouldn't be an issue, but i'd much rather see a fun but broken game than a boring balanced one...some of you guys evidently don't feel the same which i think is disturbing


I love my copy of :lovin:Hokuto No Ken :lovin:too, polarity! :bgrin:

[TaiPing]

It can be done, but not on release. GG and HF are balanced with individuality, but it took MANY trials. I like the idea, but it can never be as balanced as StarCraft. :)

Oh yeah, you guys forgot the most balanced games ever ... Virtua Fighter 4: Final Tuned and Virtua Fighter 5 Version C.

[TS]

god forbid someone want a return to a more traditional street fighter format. :rolleyes:

Kind of an ironic statement. Back in the era of the SF2 games, where you had basically no universal systems other than jump/block/throws, character individuality actually stood out more; the difference between Vega and Guile's walking speeds actually meant something, since it's not like everybody could run/dash anyway. The fact that some charactes had projectiles and some didn't was actually an issue, since it's not like everyone could roll/parry/JD etc to get around them. Combo/damage potential mattered more because it's not like you can just do crouching medium into a super or land a CC. There were characters who had to set up an opportunity to do damage, or who would do it bit by bit, or by block damage, throws, etc.

What you see when you add more stuff in....alpha counters, running, UOH, parry, guard meter etc, is that you actually weaken specific advantages that various character types would naturally have.

About a character having no jumps- there are many characters who functionally don't, and/or can't do it in certain matches because it's a bad idea. About not being able to block, SA3 Makoto? Custom combos? In the Marvel games, Gold War Machine and IB Zangief? You can get away with it, but it's best not to have it be the constant state of the character (though honestly you could probably make it work).

[YuuFone]

Yeah Daemos, it was called "CAPCOM FIGHTING JAM." Did you play it?

I played It and DAMN It Sucks!

it was a total peice of CRAP~

i played a few matches and then i almost fell asleep :annoy:

Kind of an ironic statement. Back in the era of the SF2 games, where you had basically no universal systems other than jump/block/throws, character individuality actually stood out more; the difference between Vega and Guile's walking speeds actually meant something, since it's not like everybody could run/dash anyway. The fact that some charactes had projectiles and some didn't was actually an issue, since it's not like everyone could roll/parry/JD etc to get around them. Combo/damage potential mattered more because it's not like you can just do crouching medium into a super or land a CC. There were characters who had to set up an opportunity to do damage, or who would do it bit by bit, or by block damage, throws, etc.

What you see when you add more stuff in....alpha counters, running, UOH, parry, guard meter etc, is that you actually weaken specific advantages that various character types would naturally have.
I agree with what your saying man!

[azis]

i think basic fundamentals that we all know should be universal (air block, dashing/run).

but other than the absolute basics being universal. I totally dig the more individualistic approach, like I've been preaching in the other threads. It makes the game more interesting and just gives the game a lot more to offer. using GGXX as an example since this game does this idea best, I cant just randomly pick characters I dont use and automatically do well or have a general feel for the character i just randomly picked. in games like sf, you get that general feeling across the entire roster on what to do, there are exception characters.

gives the game a more natural feel of variety and gameplay depth per characters. a lot of stuff you learn for a character in ggxx, will not translate over to another character in the roster, at all. in sf and other games. you can carry over ideas/fundamentals/strategies from character to character most of the time. Not saying it will be equally effective, dont get me wrong here. theres still a great deal to learn with each character in every game. i just think games like ggxx, for example, takes it much further on individuality. And I am definitely for that

That is what I would like to say few posts before this one, with my limited english, thanks!

But I dislike random stuff like GG, specially Zappa. The player don't know if he will call the dog, the ghosts or the Razor, and the opponent don't know if suddenly comes an flower vase, a white spot or a banana. It sucks.

Please, Capcom, don't add that and neither transformations like Zappa. The only transformation is the Super Meter filled that turns a cat into a lion. It turns Sagat into an angry tiger, for example. Keep the Street Fighter Trademark alive.

And the games will always have something broken, but we should try to balance to give options. Low tier characters, as I said before dunowhere, serves at least for humiliation purposes. So they are somehow funny.

[Daidoji Kage]

That is what I would like to say few posts before this one, with my limited english, thanks!

But I dislike random stuff like GG, specially Zappa. The player don't know if he will call the dog, the ghosts or the Razor, and the opponent don't know if suddenly comes an flower vase, a white spot or a banana. It sucks.

Actually, it's entirely based upon the time clock.

Summon moves give specific ghosts depending on the second timer.

mamamamamamamamamabitchesmamamamamamama

[tataki]

the random factor is very specific here. its not like cars hitting you in DOA... or a random cheetah >.>

[YuuFone]

That is what I would like to say few posts before this one, with my limited english, thanks!

But I dislike random stuff like GG, specially Zappa. The player don't know if he will call the dog, the ghosts or the Razor, and the opponent don't know if suddenly comes an flower vase, a white spot or a banana. It sucks.

Please, Capcom, don't add that and neither transformations like Zappa. The only transformation is the Super Meter filled that turns a cat into a lion. It turns Sagat into an angry tiger, for example. Keep the Street Fighter Trademark alive.

And the games will always have something broken, but we should try to balance to give options. Low tier characters, as I said before dunowhere, serves at least for humiliation purposes. So they are somehow funny.

turn Sagat to a angry tiger? that would be like mortal combat haha~

tryin to get a game perfectly balanced is hard but i think ST did get it pretty balanced

[CyberAkuma]

Kind of an ironic statement. Back in the era of the SF2 games, where you had basically no universal systems other than jump/block/throws, character individuality actually stood out more; the difference between Vega and Guile's walking speeds actually meant something, since it's not like everybody could run/dash anyway. The fact that some charactes had projectiles and some didn't was actually an issue, since it's not like everyone could roll/parry/JD etc to get around them. Combo/damage potential mattered more because it's not like you can just do crouching medium into a super or land a CC. There were characters who had to set up an opportunity to do damage, or who would do it bit by bit, or by block damage, throws, etc.

What you see when you add more stuff in....alpha counters, running, UOH, parry, guard meter etc, is that you actually weaken specific advantages that various character types would naturally have.


I'm with you. If Capcom were willing to do something like you suggest, I think it would be able to do more to give the variety that some people want, without breaking the fundamentals that make SF what it is.

[azis]

By Sagat turn into an Angry tiger, I mean CVS2 C-groove. You will be probably afraid of him f he has level 2 or full meter.

About Zappa moves stretched to the Clock, who will look at the clock, while fighting, to execute a move?

Supposing Ryu uses a Red Hadouken 45 degrees up while the clock is at a prime number, and a vertical 80 degrees hadouken if it is divisible by 2, the blue one and horizontal if it is divisible by 3... we will call it Random, and not Strategic.

The right Hadouken is to be used in specific situations. Lets say I want it now in response to a Sonic Boom, cause I don't want to jump, neither block, I want to wait for Guile's Reaction. If I had to look at the clock to see if it is better to jump or to execute a Hadouken, and in his case, wich one, I would call that Random, cause I want to think and act quickly.

So, definitely, no Random stuff should exist. Leave it to Guilty Gear, and we are fine.

[Daidoji Kage]

By Sagat turn into an Angry tiger, I mean CVS2 C-groove. You will be probably afraid of him f he has level 2 or full meter.

About Zappa moves stretched to the Clock, who will look at the clock, while fighting, to execute a move?

Supposing Ryu uses a Red Hadouken 45 degrees up while the clock is at a prime number, and a vertical 80 degrees hadouken if it is divisible by 2, the blue one and horizontal if it is divisible by 3... we will call it Random, and not Strategic.

You're wasting internets with your words.

1. If you can't time a move along with the timer, the object of time keeping, you should fucking quit.

2. Random: Without Pattern, done, chosen, or occurring without an identifiable pattern, plan, system, or connection

Now I only have a Masters degree...so I might not be smart enough to make this call, but I'm pretty sure that the timer and for that matter, clocks in general, follow some kind of pattern. If only science could figure it out...

[SaBrE]

i dunno why zappa "randomness" was brought up. i was merely using it as a loose example, not even taking into consideration of the "random" summon factor. I am merely just pointing out his individual sub-system. dont take it out of context

[azis]

You're wasting internets with your words.

1. If you can't time a move along with the timer, the object of time keeping, you should fucking quit.

2. Random: Without Pattern, done, chosen, or occurring without an identifiable pattern, plan, system, or connection

Now I only have a Masters degree...so I might not be smart enough to make this call, but I'm pretty sure that the timer and for that matter, clocks in general, follow some kind of pattern. If only science could figure it out...
Who cares about your master degree? You use it to read the dictionary and paste definitions? Or to superpose your sovereign, mister owner of a Master degree, over others? Or to figure out and tell the world you discovered that clock follows a pattern?

Of course it follows a pattern, but if you, owner of a Master degree (WOW, that is so rare!), couldn't notice that in the fight, while reflex is needed to execute an proper answer, it only make things hard to play, you should take some classes again.

Or you are THE Man that had probably won some EVOs and other important championships (I don't know), because you are incredible to pay attention to your life, guard, super-meter, the enemy and the clock, while playing, knowing the perfect call of Zappa stuff. If so, I take off my hat to you and just have to say congratulations, cause I really can't do that.

And negative reputation given to me because I disagree just tell me you can't face a debate, so, you must suck as a scientist. By the way, I'm 1 month away from my Doctor degree final defense, but I don't tell this to everyone and I don't think that it means I'm better than others, and my opinions, stronger.

Sabre: The Zappa example was in no way because of you.

I was just pointing it out to say that, in this context, individual sub-system should not take "bizarre" paths, without any offense to GG fans (it is a matter of opinion), cause I think (people are free to disagree, no need to Neg rep) this "randomness" (ok, it is not random, just looks for me) take some of strategy away. And so I said that in individual sub-system should have no such thing as transformations (and I again used Zappa as an example) besides the super-meter.

I just think that individuality should keep the Old but good recipe and the Street Fighter trademark as it is, I mean, without several bars, one for almost each character, 3 types of parry, 4 of JD, 2 Dashes, 10 Grooves, pushblock characters, different types of hadoukens according to the clock and probability of one at each 8 supers to be more damaging, and 1/16 to be unblockable. It is not SF and would suck.

[Daidoji Kage]

(ok, it is not random, just looks for me)

That's all you had to say.

:rofl:

At any rate, one thing I don't want to see SF4 have in common with GG is the 'feel' to the combos. I'd prefer to see some kind of noticable impact for a few solid hits, not a string of attacks that sounds like chaine light punches.

(obviously not a gameplay issue, but still...)

[PersonaDark]

What about unique defensive options for each character, based on their design and the real life defensive methods of the fighting style they use?

For example, A boxer would have sways, sidesteps and dodges, similar to the roll/sidesteps seen in CVS and KOF, but more evolved. With proper timing, he could weave around certain attacks and counter as he desired. A grappler could be given counter throws at high low and mid levels. (see Clark, Kasumi, and Blitzkampf's Kadae for examples) Someone with an acrobatic style could flip or twist around attacks or reverse in unusual ways and so on.

Of course, the wrong choice at the wrong time gets you punished. To further prevent abuse of the system or the problems 3S parrying brought about, these moves could either consume super meter or for a new take on things, it consumes guard meter. The latter would mean spamming the system would wind up with you being guard crushed, which would encourage players to get their character down to a science. On the con side, such a system would really have to be tested hardcore to prevent certain characters from becoming too overpowered and various other grieveances.

Just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

[nothingxs]

i never said gay. i just like playing games with a system that everyone works with, and then learning the match ups and your character and blah blah blah. all i know is that within those multiple systems or whatever, there is always one that is way too dominant and that of course becomes top tier and boring and it becomes way too difficlut to compete with anything but that.

you're misinterpreting. i think they don't want to have multiple systems available to each character, but that each character work under their own special system.

i like the idea. i could see certain characters who have a hard time getting in gaining some features that allowed them to more effectively play their game. what if only zangief had an air block, or a way to engage some form of super armor when he jumps in on you to prevent him from easily getting knocked away?

essentially, small features that are unique per character that help them do what they are supposed to do better, while not completely trivializing the basics. just give everyone walk, jump, throw and block, give fast characters a run, almost everyone else a dash... shit like that.

[rook]

Darkstalkers/GGXX style differentiation works pretty well, imho. I always thought that the implemented character diversity pretty well, with keeping the basic systems (like blocking, walking, jumping, etc) universal, but having radically different takes on how each system works.

For example; everyone can dash, and they dash using the same command input -- but their dashes work very differently.

Some move forward a predetermined distance, others have control over how far they travel (effectively a CVS2-type run).
Some dashes have special properties (invulnerbility / flying / airdashing)

and so on.

And of course you can always take away certain options for some characters (Anakaris can't normal throw, Potemkin can't dash forward).

Keeping the input motions similar means that you can avoid the unnecessary effort to relearn how to do the basic stuff for each character, and you can go straight into learning the character instead.

[Tea]

What you see when you add more stuff in....alpha counters, running, UOH, parry, guard meter etc, is that you actually weaken specific advantages that various character types would naturally have.


"...naturally have" seems a bit fishy as those characters originally were built around a system as well. The way those new things like UOH, running, etc... weaken individuality is if they are introduced to an existing system. A well made game has characters built around them instead. Run speeds, UOH priority, what move your alpha counter is, etc...
Some games, like GG, take them to extremes and make it fun.

I can SORTA see what peeps are saying about having a broken fun game instead of a balanced boring one, but as was stated, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. We can have balanced fun. Balanced variety as well, which I think is what a lot of people are looking for as this adds replay and fun in itself. Further, I think it's important to note that a fun game becomes boring once those top tier characters/strats come out.

I'd also like to second the notion that 3s is actually pretty balanced and fun, there are just some outstanding flaws, much like T4. Further 3s is NOT homogeneous. It's one of the most unique fighters to have ever been crafted so much it is even difficult to put into words. GG may have more variety (I love 3s and GG equally btw), but many times you're doing the same thing with every character. Either locking down, rushing down, or setting up a big move/combo. That's a bit of a hyperbole, but, again, the character systems in 3s don't DO specific things, and yet almost every character plays VASTLY differently.

[TrueSephiroth]

Kind of an ironic statement. Back in the era of the SF2 games, where you had basically no universal systems other than jump/block/throws, character individuality actually stood out more; the difference between Vega and Guile's walking speeds actually meant something, since it's not like everybody could run/dash anyway. The fact that some charactes had projectiles and some didn't was actually an issue, since it's not like everyone could roll/parry/JD etc to get around them. Combo/damage potential mattered more because it's not like you can just do crouching medium into a super or land a CC. There were characters who had to set up an opportunity to do damage, or who would do it bit by bit, or by block damage, throws, etc.

What you see when you add more stuff in....alpha counters, running, UOH, parry, guard meter etc, is that you actually weaken specific advantages that various character types would naturally have.

About a character having no jumps- there are many characters who functionally don't, and/or can't do it in certain matches because it's a bad idea. About not being able to block, SA3 Makoto? Custom combos? In the Marvel games, Gold War Machine and IB Zangief? You can get away with it, but it's best not to have it be the constant state of the character (though honestly you could probably make it work).

TS wins this thread.

I completely agree with this.

Btw Tea, I agree with you on T4 being good and fun, but having flaws, since T4's flaws was mainly due to character imbalance issues and the glitches, outside of that, the game engine itself was phenomenal. 3S's character individuality is nowhere near or remotely in lvl with that of SF2 by far.

[polarity]

I'd like to see a character with a DP that has 1 frame of totally vulnerable startup before going invincible but does big damage/sets up a big combo opportunity. It doesn't even have to look like a DP I guess, could just be a counter move that intercepts everything. Basically creates a character that has a really powerful anti-air/footsie option if you're good at predicting pokes, but is still weak against getting meatied on wakeups. We've seen the inverse before, so I think that'd be pretty cool. :china:

edit: Actually a character that does most of their damage from intercepting the opponent's attacks in general would be pretty neat. Hell, you could even just give them 3S-style parries and a really fucking short guard meter!

[Radiantsilvergun3]

I'd like to see a character with a DP that has 1 frame of totally vulnerable startup before going invincible but does big damage/sets up a big combo opportunity. It doesn't even have to look like a DP I guess, could just be a counter move that intercepts everything. Basically creates a character that has a really powerful anti-air/footsie option if you're good at predicting pokes, but is still weak against getting meatied on wakeups. We've seen the inverse before, so I think that'd be pretty cool. :china:

edit: Actually a character that does most of their damage from intercepting the opponent's attacks in general would be pretty neat. Hell, you could even just give them 3S-style parries and a really fucking short guard meter!

Thats not a bad idea Polarity. Infact that would be pretty damn cool.

[Ashenwraith]

I think when developers try too hard and focus on frames and technical stuff the game starts to loses it's feel.

Just visually design characters and give them moves that make sense and are bad ass.

When everyone sees Gief, Jug, Hulk, etc they expect them to be slow and hit hard - it would just be stupid if it were any other way.

The balancing part is what you do at the end.

If you try the opposite and design the abilities/system first and then fit them to a visual style you usually end up with weird looking alien-gimmick-creatures that are only good as bosses (ie Twelve).

[polarity]

I think the visual and gameplay aspects of character design need to be a two-way process, right from the very beginning. If one does have priority over the other I hardly think it necessarily results in cool-looking characters with unfocused gameplay or characters that play great but look dumb, but you're definitely going to dilute one of the aspects somewhat, even if only slightly. Better to have it be a collaborative process from the outset.

[jabhadouken]

Who cares about your master degree? You use it to read the dictionary and paste definitions? Or to superpose your sovereign, mister owner of a Master degree, over others? Or to figure out and tell the world you discovered that clock follows a pattern?


And negative reputation given to me because I disagree just tell me you can't face a debate, so, you must suck as a scientist. By the way, I'm 1 month away from my Doctor degree final defense, but I don't tell this to everyone and I don't think that it means I'm better than others, and my opinions, stronger.

What is a Doctor degree final defense?

Hell, what is a Doctor degree?


Do you mean to say "doctorate", and if so - in what, pray tell?

If so, then I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it's not a doctorate in English.

Or do you mean to say that you're one year away from receiving your PHD in medicine, or MD? If so, I can only hope that you don't butcher your patients the way you have the concept of arguing in coherent English.

That's "in" coherent - not incoherent, just to qualify.

Minor grammatical errors aside, Daidoji Kagi's post was coherent.

Yours wasn't.

[Demon Dash]

I was thinking, can you only juggle with EX's after an Ultra? Because if not, couldn't you essentially dash cancel after a landed DP and unleash damage?

[HolyOrderChipp]

"Guilty Gear plz"

Fixed.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Oh, wait, this has to be Street Fighter? Ok then, how about, say, giving guile alpha counters 'cause he's defensive, giving more aggressive characters like Akuma a universal overhead, things like that. Say, give each character one system. lp+lk is throw for everyone, and some other pair is taunt, but the third is a character specific action. They have a lot to choose from: Roll, Alpha Counter, Universal Overhead (Make it so that only these characters have ground overheads), Tech Roll (You know, the roll when you hit the ground), Etc.

[FreshOJ]

I was thinking, can you only juggle with EX's after an Ultra? Because if not, couldn't you essentially dash cancel after a landed DP and unleash damage?

No offense...but wasn't I saying that since back in December? Dash-cancelling after an EX connects is going to lead to *EX*tended combos, including juggle combos ending with supers or ultras. Watch and see.

[SweetJohnnyV]

I'd love to see a return to more character-specific properties. IMHO, this is one of the things that made the SF2 series so much fun. It makes a lot of the match-ups have a character of their own. Even though SF4 has some new universal systems, I'm actually hoping that the way these moves work will still make things feel a bit more varied than they have in some of the later games. Here's to hoping anyway...


edit: Actually a character that does most of their damage from intercepting the opponent's attacks in general would be pretty neat. Hell, you could even just give them 3S-style parries and a really fucking short guard meter!

There was an SNK character in SvC:Chaos called Kasumi that was kind of like this. I apologize for being ignorant as to what game she's really from. Anyway, she had several counter moves and one even one of her supers was a counter move! She could counter almost anything(Normals, specials, even supers!), but she couldn't counter projectiles.

These counter moves also required her to really commit to the counter. I forget the exact command s, but imagine that you do a fireball command and she goes into an animation where she goes to counter the other guy. If you guessed right, it would stop your opponents move cold and would go into it's own attack. In other words, it was both a parry and attack. This meant you couldn't stop their move and perform a free super, for example. But if you guessed wrong, you'd be left hanging in this block animation for a bit.

All in all, I think she was a really fun and unique character. I'd love to see character variations like this show up in SF games.

[FreshOJ]

I'd love to see a return to more character-specific properties. IMHO, this is one of the things that made the SF2 series so much fun. It makes a lot of the match-ups have a character of their own. Even though SF4 has some new universal systems, I'm actually hoping that the way these moves work will still make things feel a bit more varied than they have in some of the later games. Here's to hoping anyway...

There was an SNK character in SvC:Chaos called Kasumi that was kind of like this. I apologize for being ignorant as to what game she's really from. Anyway, she had several counter moves and one even one of her supers was a counter move! She could counter almost anything(Normals, specials, even supers!), but she couldn't counter projectiles.

These counter moves also required her to really commit to the counter. I forget the exact command s, but imagine that you do a fireball command and she goes into an animation where she goes to counter the other guy. If you guessed right, it would stop your opponents move cold and would go into it's own attack. In other words, it was both a parry and attack. This meant you couldn't stop their move and perform a free super, for example. But if you guessed wrong, you'd be left hanging in this block animation for a bit.

All in all, I think she was a really fun and unique character. I'd love to see character variations like this show up in SF games.

You're absolutely on point. There's no doubt that character specific features give a game variety. I really hope they start paying more attention to that versus forcing us to endure more gamebreaking universal systems.

...and Kasumi would be...Kasumi Todo, daughter of Ryuhaku Todo, from the King Of Fighters series (KoF '96 is her first appearance).

[recon_zero]

...and Kasumi would be...Kasumi Todo, daughter of Ryuhaku Todo, from the King Of Fighters series (KoF '96 is her first appearance).

AoF3 actually.

BTW, great thread. I would love to see more char differences, less shotos, and more individuality to the characters.

[FreshOJ]

AoF3 actually.


Oops...you're right. :) I forgot about that game...and when you think about it...you see how that game is easily forgettable...not to say that KoF '96 wasn't a total letdown, either. '97 and '98 made up for it, though. :)

But, yeah...ever since Three came out, I was saying that those parries are broken and counters like Geese Howard's and Kasumi Todo's are the way it should be done.

[AKUMA2000]

Let's entertain this idea for a second. For the longest time, in virtually all SF games, all characters had the same tactical movesets (eg dashes) and all of them virtually utilized their super meters in the same fashion and even charged up their super meter in the same fashion. I am proposing a more individualized system, that makes you feel like playing every character is a different experience all together.

For example, remember how Vega (claw) was the only character in SF2 that could climb up the walls of his stage? Imagine if every character had not one but several unique things just like this (not necessarily special moves and not specifically related to their stage).

Even the way the super meter is charged could be different and each meter would give characters different abilities. I like the idea of grapplers having shorter meters than other characters for example.

I can see that the only problem with this idea is balance is harder to obtain. However, it would also offer players the chance to play characters differently than ever before. Think of this as each character has their own unique "groove" like CVS2.


To make a long story short, a fighting game character is as only good as the person controlling them......no more, no less.

[FreshOJ]

To make a long story short, a fighting game character is as only good as the person controlling them......no more, no less.

So.......you don't believe in tier lists?

How can your statement possibly be true given that each character (usually) has their own specific characteristics? *Those specific characteristics* determine a character's potential within the game engine...not the player using them. The player's skill level merely determines the player's ability to use the character.

[tataki]

I'd like to see a character with a DP that has 1 frame of totally vulnerable startup before going invincible but does big damage/sets up a big combo opportunity. It doesn't even have to look like a DP I guess, could just be a counter move that intercepts everything. Basically creates a character that has a really powerful anti-air/footsie option if you're good at predicting pokes, but is still weak against getting meatied on wakeups. We've seen the inverse before, so I think that'd be pretty cool. :china:

well anji's "dragon punch" is not exactly like that but its still unique-
it has lots of invulnerability frames and its not punishable on block. it actually has multiple followups not to mention it starts a combo for somewhat big damage.
its only weakness is that the invulnerability frames end *right before* he hits.

[Dark Symphony]

I can see that the only problem with this idea is balance is harder to obtain. However, it would also offer players the chance to play characters differently than ever before. Think of this as each character has their own unique "groove" like CVS2.


Ok... when the only problem with an idea is that it 'breaks the game' essentially... you probably just want to scrap the idea.

Which already exists anyway. Example: Even though all characters can build meter with the same methods, some methods are more practical for some characters than others. That seems like a safer approach, no?

[Dark Symphony]

If you went this route, you'd have to think long and hard about how it'll effect gameplay overall and the useability of the characters. Also, where do you "draw the line"? Will you take away blocking from one character and give him some insane offensive option? Will you take away somebody's vertical movement and give him some insane horizontal movement instead? There are some tenants in SF that, imo, should not be touched and should be accessible to all characters; jump, block, walk, throw (and throw tech), normals, special normals, and special moves. Everything else can be character specific, but you'd have to make sure one character didn't rape the rest of the case for free... think Jedah in CFE. His mobility, which virtually nobody else had, was insane. Yeah, he didn't hit hard per hit, but because of his mobility and range, it didn't matter.


This, too. If i'm a new player, i'll probably be expecting some sort of similarities between characters and how they function in some regards. Suddenly not being able to blok or not being able to execute X primary method of advancing that I was able to with Y character would just... confuse me to death. Players need SOME sort of familiarity between characters.

[Dark Symphony]

i think basic fundamentals that we all know should be universal (air block, dashing/run).

but other than the absolute basics being universal. I totally dig the more individualistic approach, like I've been preaching in the other threads. It makes the game more interesting and just gives the game a lot more to offer. using GGXX as an example since this game does this idea best, I cant just randomly pick characters I dont use and automatically do well or have a general feel for the character i just randomly picked. in games like sf, you get that general feeling across the entire roster on what to do, there are exception characters.

gives the game a more natural feel of variety and gameplay depth per characters. a lot of stuff you learn for a character in ggxx, will not translate over to another character in the roster, at all. in sf and other games. you can carry over ideas/fundamentals/strategies from character to character most of the time. Not saying it will be equally effective, dont get me wrong here. theres still a great deal to learn with each character in every game. i just think games like ggxx, for example, takes it much further on individuality. And I am definitely for that


Oh yeah, and GG is a bad example. It has wildy different characters but counter-balances that individuality by giving them all so many universal options and approaches to things. Which, essentially, almost takes you back to square one. No matter who I play, I can dead angle, FD jump in, burst, and all sorts of other crazy laws. So while some elements are individual traits of characters, you still have a ton of them that are universal. GG's diversity is pretty much teh same route taken with most games and enhanced a little bit.

[EndLeSS8]

Oh yeah, and GG is a bad example. It has wildy different characters but counter-balances that individuality by giving them all so many universal options and approaches to things. Which, essentially, almost takes you back to square one. No matter who I play, I can dead angle, FD jump in, burst, and all sorts of other crazy laws. So while some elements are individual traits of characters, you still have a ton of them that are universal. GG's diversity is pretty much teh same route taken with most games and enhanced a little bit.

I agree with everything you said, except for the last part about enhanced a little bit.
I think it's a lot, but that's a side note.



On topic: Yes, a properly made Character Individuality system, that works well, would be great. However, it takes a lot of fine tuning.

Personally, I dislike "retroactive fixing" (Fixing unbalance issues by adding same moves to all characters, to balance them)
This is one of the reasons why I don't really like ST, and I feel that the best SF2 game, is Turbo/HF.
To retroactively balance characters in ST, a LOT of characters were given an upkick of sorts.

Looking at the ST roster now:
12/ 17 characters (Akuma included) have dragon punches/upkicks

[Kamui]

This is true. The problem is that safe close range attack options that allow for a layered offense are the dominant strategy in the game, so much that characters that were originally designed to be more effective at different distances couldn't hang because their close range options were worse than other characters. This hasn't always been true, but take note that Guilty Gear started having a slightly more balanced roster when they started giving every character the same means of attacking safely. Though everyone has a different command set for mounting an offense, many still attack in inherently the same way. In a way it made the game a lot of fun to play since everyone is so aggressive, but the cost was a little character differentiation. Very few characters fight from a different position now, or rather, they mount an offense from that position, but don't mean to hold it (unlike Dhalsim or 3rd Strike Chun-li). There are exceptions to this though,

I think this problem came to be because of the exaggerated mobility and defensive systems present in Guilty Gear. It's pretty hard for a character with solid middle or long range options to keep an opponent out. There are too many good ways to establish close range to allow older versions of a character like Ky to fight from what used to be his desired position: middle range. Ky became a stronger character when they improved his close range options (his counter hit options, ability to keep the enemy locked down, and damage dealing capabilities got better).

This isn't to say Sabre is wrong though. Even if the sub systems make it difficult for each character's original plan to work fully, the Guilty Gear design philosophy is still one of the better takes I've seen in a fighter. Most characters truly feel like they play differently, even when they don't, which is a pretty good sign that they're doing their job even when the environment makes it difficult for certain strategies to work.

Oh yeah, and GG is a bad example. It has wildy different characters but counter-balances that individuality by giving them all so many universal options and approaches to things. Which, essentially, almost takes you back to square one. No matter who I play, I can dead angle, FD jump in, burst, and all sorts of other crazy laws. So while some elements are individual traits of characters, you still have a ton of them that are universal. GG's diversity is pretty much teh same route taken with most games and enhanced a little bit.

[Rioting Soul]

I remember having some discussion with Daemos back when SF4 threads were almost locked on first sight. And someone always came in with "It's called CFE/GG" or some shit. I always liked the idea. Like how X-Ism Rolento couldn't do a normal jump since he naturally did his KKK jump from CvS2 or how X-Adon's jumping kicks were all aerial versions of Jaguar Kick. I always imagined a character like Zangief(or anybody quick to temper) activating some kind of super rage mode by pressing any three buttons together. I had it as any three buttons since with it like that, a person on an arcade stick can take their right hand with palm open and smash the buttons in a "fuck that!" kind of way and start beasting. The rage would last for how much meter he has and he can do a super with just a drop left like A/N/K/S-grooves. Also, he'd have super armor that depletes his meter while in rage(if he gets hit by something, super armor activates and takes away a bit of his rage).

Or for Blanka, his meter would actually signify how much of a charge he has. At the beginning, his electricity isn't as damaging, resets airborne opponents and has less frame advantage and hitbox. But the more Blanka does electricity, his meter increases with ups the effects of his electricity(larger hitbox, more frames, knocks down grounded and airborne opponents). Near the end of his meter, Electricity will juggle opponents. If as certain amount of time passes without Blanka using electricity, his meter begins to deplete. Blanka would have to constantly use electricity throughout the match to maintain a charge. Once the meter is maxed out, it begins to deplete like K-groove. While in maxed out mode, Blanka is visibly surging with electricity. All of his attacks do a considerable amount of stun and all of his attacks deal an extra hit due to electric shock from contact. Because of that, custom combos may be possible but his cancellability and jugglability(not real words it seems) stays the same. He can only use super while maxed out and using super takes away all his meter.

With Rolento, he could have a set amount of knives and grenades. The grenades would only be replenished between rounds but with the knives, they will litter the stage like Agito's in Big Bang Beat and Rolento can pick them back up.

Ryu could have the system in A3 where you can soften hit and block damage by pressing an attack button precisely after blocking being hit. And the new Focus Attack really suits him.

Sorry, I'll stop.

[Gutter Trash]

a good example of character indiviuality done right is old man Gen.

Gen's P+P+P stance was great for close range while K+K+K was good for Mid to Long range.

when Dhalsim would start zoning Gen out of reach, switching to K+K+K gave Gen the tools to either roll under the Yoga Fires or jump off the walls to nail Dhalsim.