Parry thread

[DevilJin 01]

lol Remy having to switch his style up is the reason why he gets raped most of the time, he was not even designed to fight like so

And the Parry thing is a question of preference, I think jabhadouken said:

''It obliterates the concept of a long term strategy''

So basically, you will want parry if you like playing RPS guessing games, if you hate long range combat, if you hate the struggule game between a long range and a close range fighter, if you hate ''traps'' where your options gets more and more reduced.

You will hate parry if you want to plan a long-term, effective strategy with less random variables, if you like more variety in viable strategies, if you believe you have the right to have a significant advantage over your opponent if the implementation of your gameplan is superior to his.


Yeah...that's what it comes down to. Parry just cuts mind games to much shorter guessing games and long term strategies...well they're few and far between. Yet at the same time there's just people that are good at short term guessing and those guys make up that higher level of players in 3S. For me...neither is really better than the other because I like the way 3S works. Really abstract strategies end up working all the time and you kinda more just have to have a feel for what's going on as opposed to perfectly putting together a bunch of things.

I agree with that for the mere fact the last thread ended up as like, what... 60 pages or something? But it was disheartening to see it just thrown out like that :\ Probably why the "debate" in this thread has been pretty lackluster. Everyone lost their spunk

I think the debate should be over by now. I'm surprised people even still wanna discuss it. That's the thing I dont like about SRK. Cuz we dont live close enough to each other to just play each other all the time everything is discussion this...discussion that. We're more worried about what parry does to fighting games than just learning how it works and either playing the game or not playing it. 3S is the only game that implements parry the way it does and there are way many other fighting games that also use parry but in different ways. A lot of the ways parries are implemented in 3S are things that can't necessarily be written on paper. You just have to have a mind for it. It's very unlikely that SFIV will have 3S style parry and that pretty much already ends the need to discuss this shit. A parry is a parry is a parry and there's people that like parry and people that don't. The people that dont like 3S parry can play other shit and we'll play 3S. GGPO.

Also, IIRC, i think if you hold the direction, it decreases the parry window. Anyways, i say we let capcom bring the same exact parry system to SF4 so that SF can die again for another 10 yrs with people saying it's just a rehash and plays exactly like SF3. That way all the pro parry people can see how silly it is.

All the pro parry people will just continue to play because that's what they're used to and it really dont fuckin matter to them. Just in the same way that the 3S scene in Japan is still strong. People just like the game for what it is and that wont change even with another 10 years of 3S style parrying. I guess I'm only somewhat pro parry though because I dont wanna see 3S parry in SFIV. I want some new shit. Something better and more exciting than SFIV would have to come out before people would even really start to realize that the whole thing is BS and not worth playing. 3S will die out when the game just doesn't become interesting for people anymore. I dont see that happening anytime soon though. The way parry works in 3S is the exact reason IMO that people will flock to it for years to come.

[EndLeSS8]

All the pro parry people will just continue to play because that's what they're used to and it really dont fuckin matter to them. Just in the same way that the 3S scene in Japan is still strong. People just like the game for what it is and that wont change even with another 10 years of 3S style parrying. I guess I'm only somewhat pro parry though because I dont wanna see 3S parry in SFIV. I want some new shit. Something better and more exciting than SFIV would have to come out before people would even really start to realize that the whole thing is BS and not worth playing. 3S will die out when the game just doesn't become interesting for people anymore. I dont see that happening anytime soon though. The way parry works in 3S is the exact reason IMO that people will flock to it for years to come.

EXACTLY

SOMEONE GIVE THIS GUY MUNNY OR SOMETHING!

[TaiPing]

truth
I agree 100% to what you have said. This is one of those rare occasions where you make a smart post and not a sarcastic post. What's wrong? :razz:

[TS]

I'm just saying, Harry and the Hendersons was like...did it dersve a TV series afterward, you know what I mean? It's like, shit the MOVIE wasn't that good, let's see if we can stretch it out with multiple episodic storylines afterwards. That sounds like a GREAT idea.

The highlight of the movie was some horrible unlovable mongoloid creacture eating some girl's corsage. It was like Rosie O'Donnel at her prom. I haven't even seen the movie in 10 years but I remember John Lithgow was in it... Damn. This is where I say how sad that is and how retarded, but I sort of hate his ass. It's like, he's one of those actors where everybody respects him and all, but he's done, what, 3rd Rock From the Sun? Yeah he's done theater and shit but...really? Who gives a shit?

And seriously, the whole concept of the movie was just retarded. OH SNAP, IT'S A SASQUATCH. BUT HE'S LOVABLE, HE DOESN'T EAT SKIN LIKE A YETI. Fucking awesome. I would pay money to see Sasquatch from the DarkStalkers/Vampire games freeze any of the cast of that movie and just beat the shit out of them. Or dude from Alpha Flight, or Beast, or Wendigo, or anyone, SHIT. FUCK, he's not even a good missing link. He's basically a big hairy retard with a fucked up face, LET'S ALL LAUGH.

And even the fucking name...HARRY and the Hendersons. Because he's....HAIRY. Get it? DO YOU GET IT? HAHAHA YES.

...ridiculous...

Back to parrying...

[hubcapsignstop]

snip
i agree wth most of what you said

especially the following:
...That's the thing I dont like about SRK...We're more worried about what parry does to fighting games than just learning how it works and either playing the game or not playing it...
...People just like the game for what it is...

ST is my favorite game
but i love 3S too

yeah; parry changes the whole game i get it, but i like it

i hope SF4 gives us some new shit

peace

[TS]

Blanka is good in ST. He's better than Cammy who has a DP with invinicbility frames and is safe on block. He's also better than Guile and Fei Long. M.Bison on the other hand doesn't have a dedicated anti-air move, and his best AA is early jumping Strong. He's also top 4....

Speaking of Guile- the flash kick isn't the anti-air move in a lot of games, he uses a normal move instead (ie. crouching Fierce). In a game with parries, you actually see that being devalued. You can have competent anti-air without having dedicated anti-air move, much less a universal system which affects every character in the game. And in some cases you can be good without having a great anti-air at all- your favorite game, whatever it is, probably has several examples of that.

It seems most people who bash parry just want everything easier and more braindead, to just repeat the same "good" moves/strings over and over and get away with it.
Hilarious. This from the people complaining about throwing fireballs being too good in the same game where you can do massive damage if someone does one at the wrong time.

A game where throws are faster do twice as much damage, at least, and where mistakes like bad guesses are punished for bigger damage. You're saying people want to think less in a game where you can't stop every attack in the game by pressing forward or down, and have to actually do something about it and consider the risks and detriments.

So yeah... You do ALMOST have a point though. I really had to pick on that statement for a bit.



You believe that mix ups are strategy? Get the fuck out of here.


You realize that a lot of people don't even understand what you mean, right?


Everyone: feel free to read this post (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=2655218&postcount=141) as an example. Viscant is overquoted and overmentioned in these sorts of threads, but since this is an issue of people not really understanding what's being said, I felt the need to highlight this part of that post:
You want an example of different layers of mind games that other games have that 3s can't because of the parry? All right. Let's say we're playing ST. Blanka vs. Vega (ironically, both of these characters couldn't exist in 3s anyways), both characters have charged meter. Blanka has a small lead, about 10%. There are about 30 seconds left in the match. Let's say in this situation, Blanka is walking forward and Vega reacts to that with jab roll. Blanka blocks and this pushes him about 3/4 screen from the corner. Vega does low jab xx KKK. If Blanka jumps forward or walks forward I do super and he's about 80/20 going to eat it and most of the 20 he's going to eat claw swipe. If he hops back, I do super to the far wall to break his charge and he's about 85/15 to eat the super and again most of the 15 he's going to eat claw swipe. If you do ball, I have a charge built up and will flip kick combo you. If he sits still, I can slide and push him back towards the corner in which case I'm going to corner guard him and he really has little shot at the match from this position since all my throw ticks are now in play and his reversal (blanka ball) becomes unsafe.
Now, I wrote this scenario carefully. There is a very critical mistake Blanka made in this scenario. Do you see what it was? What could he have done in this situation to avoid a very very bad position? Failing that and this played out the way it did anyways, what is your move?

This is an example of a multi-layered mind game. I did a move (jab roll) to set up a scenario many moves in advance taking into account all factors including position, time, health, meter to hopefully set up a scenario where I'd have a good chance to win the fight. Now in a situation with parry, none of this is available because Blanka could parry the low jab. If you know Vega's character design, the only high move that could reach Blanka from that position after a claw roll is a low claw poke or stand fierce. You could "guess" low and react block to high (and even if your reactions are awful and you get hit, you're still slightly leading). A multi-level game involving position is basically useless due to the parry (and this is presuming you didn't parry the jab claw roll in the first place).

I like how you consider 3s mindgames "deep" when we've already concretely established that they can go no further than "I thought you were gonna do this but you did that and I was surprised". Green Eggs and Ham for the Nobel Prize in Literature, eh?

First reaction is "OMG STILL GUESSING." Yes, Blanka is guessing. Blanka HAS to guess. Which to give you the short version, is what feels wrong to a lot of players about 3S and the SF3 games in general: the guy in the bad situation should be the one who has to guess, not the one who is controlling the match. Vega has put himself into a win/win situation in that example, in that specific match.

I would find it hard to believe any of you would be so naive as to say that a situation where you have take into account the relative health of your opponent, the time on the clock, the characters being played, if you're charging, if he is charging, the position on the stage/screen, and both of your super meters...and then bait him into making a mistake at a fairly specific place/under those conditions which he may or may not understand while taking into account his option to counter is shallow and is just "doing the same thing over and over" as people who don't really know what they're talking about continue to say.

It would be hard to think someone could not find this at all impressive either, honestly. But most people wouldn't realize what was going on, so I can understand that.

BTW, don't cry for Blanka. People have been saying stuff like this (more simplified versions, since they don't know what they're talking about), saying that it's unfar that one character should be able to...you know...be thoughtful and set up an advantaged situation. Blanka is neither devoid of options, nor does he lose that match for free. It would be like complaining that 3S is broken because Urien can do Aegis setups on Ryu.

I heard say OMG WHAT IF YOU HAVE NO LIFE AND SOMEONE DOES A FIREBALL OMG OMG YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PAAARRRYY. Firstly, you lost +99% of your health before that. So maybe focus on the first 99% and not the last 1%. You fucked up. You should come to terms with that. What if he threw you instead? You should get a do-over! Secondly, you were put into a position where you couldn't do anything about being chipped for the K.O.; you were swept/thrown/otherwise knocked down/whatever, which is what robbed you of your ability to avoid whatever was coming at you. So not only did you lose almost all of your health, you then got set up, again, before you were knocked down.

[hubcapsignstop]

yeah
i remember reading that
cool

[Silks]

And if fulfilling my need of option 3 wasn't enough TS... :bgrin:

I have a feeling the other side of the debate you refer to in your post won't understand that situation Viscant explained. Omg there's that much thought behind that game no wayz?!

This thread was in need of that. Though this discussion may never end, the opposition would be hard pressed to deny the logic. But if you're a player who doesn't appreciate the depth of an example like that, I guess that's just your taste.

[TS]

To be clear, that's not even by biggest issue. Your most basic tools for spacing and zoning, in the most basic sense for keeping someone at the range where you want them, don't really work how they used to. On a visceral level, it just kind of feels wrong. Aside from the relatively higher value of guessing, your attacks lose value- it's less about their speed/priority/damage than before.

BTW, stuff like this has been discussed before, for example, in one of the many threads about this issue. (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=3797993)

[Tigerboi]

you know, I didn't really think about actual gripes that I myself have with the parry and red parry until I read TS's post.

It essentially ( i said this earlier) turns every thing into a mind game. Virtually anything can be a mistake that leads into big damage in 3S. In t hat sense, if you've made a mistake and get forced on defense, it offers you a free way out. The risk of having a parry attempt confused is there (which is one way I WILL say it does add a layer of strategy because the option of reading your opponent and getting them to try to parry something that isn't coming is there.)

However, when it boils right down to it, you have a 50/50 chance of landing a parr is most situations.


oh, and the red parry is bullshit. Makes chipping risky.

[AneurysmX]

Interesting


Would you or anyone be able to demonstrate this point further maybe from a match video?

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Yeah almost everything from ST Evo West. I mean the vids are on the home page. Theres some great stuff in there especialy AfroLegends Dee Jay. Shows great control of a match.

[Lazy Foo']

BTW, stuff like this has been discussed before, for example, in one of the many threads about this issue. (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=3797993)

To answer that, I have the following questions:
Which is a better game: Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
God of War 2 or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Chess or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Tetris or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Metal Gear Solid or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

[TaiPing]

Would you or anyone be able to demonstrate this point further maybe from a match video?

It is not as if people would talk what they are thinking about in the middle of a match. How many people do you hear saying "should I do a fireball or wait to dragon punch" in the middle of a match.

I think many who likes 3S would agree with me that while the parry system knocks down the “depth” (by the anti-parry side’s definition) of 3S, 3S has enough depth as is. The only reason why people do not like 3S because of the parry system is because they want more “depth” that they are use to.

Though, the aspect of depth between 3S and ST are completely different, in my opinion. It is like comparing Guilty Gear and Super Smash Brothers. I remembered Tokido played CvS2 and 3S as his first professional games, and he won this year’s ST event. Daigo played HF and Vampire Savior as his first professional games and won many Evolution events. Just because you are good at ST does not mean you would destroy in 3S, or vise-versa.

But hey, what do I know?

[crazymasterhand]

To answer that, I have the following questions:
Which is a better game: Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
God of War 2 or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Chess or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Tetris or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Metal Gear Solid or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

the hell does that have to do with anything?

[Lazy Foo']

the hell does that have to do with anything?

It supposed to make you think outside of the traditional fighting game spectrum.

[Henaki]

It supposed to make you think outside of the traditional fighting game spectrum.

So somehow, comparing apples and oranges is relevant to comparing apples to apples.

[Lazy Foo']

So somehow, comparing apples and oranges is relevant to comparing apples to apples.

Since when were apples are being compared with other apples here?

[Higher-Jin]

Boo-urns. Parry go home! Parry go home!

Assists and THCs in SF4 ftw!

[Henaki]

Since when were apples are being compared with other apples here?

Are you like, typing words without reading anything in this thread

[polarity]

Boo-urns. Parry go home! Parry go home!

Assists and THCs in SF4 ftw!

hell yeah

[Lazy Foo']

Are you like, typing words without reading anything in this thread

The point of that was that not every game (fighting or not) has to play a certain way. You can't criticize a game on the basis that it doesn't play like something else.

[Rioting Soul]

The point of that was that not every game (fighting or not) has to play a certain way. You can't criticize a game on the basis that it doesn't play like something else.

How else can one compare two things if these two things are not different? If they are different then a comparison is justified. If by result one of the two appears to be inferior to the other then I guess then it would be called criticism.

[Lazy Foo']

How else can one compare two things if these two things are not different? If they are different then a comparison is justified. If by result one of the two appears to be inferior to the other then I guess then it would be called criticism.

It's when criticism is "X doesn't play like Y, therefore X is bad".

It's kind of like saying KoF's roll negates corner traps and is therefore less strategic. That argument assumes you need to have corner traps in order for a fighting game to be good and strategic. It shouldn't be considered bad just because the game works differently.

[Embryo]

Well the impression I get is that a lot of folks here who speak out agaisnt parrying just dont seem to like any of the modern sub systems. Ive already gone over the point about"living in the now" and what not but it doesnt seem to sink into peoples thick skulls. All I can say is that SF4 will probably play like a tittle that is being released in 08...not like something from 20 years ago.

[Hellion]

To answer that, I have the following questions:
Which is a better game: Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
God of War 2 or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Chess or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Tetris or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Metal Gear Solid or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

I'll bite.
The games that have replayability, involve some factor that make the gameplay seemingly "random," yet has a refined level of strategy that everyone should reach if they play the game enough.




Chess *HAS* stood the test of time for ages, and will continue to do so for ages to come. Tetris is alright.

THIS IS SRK.
THE ANSWER IS SF2 TURBO.
j/k.
Had to get that sense of "THIS IS SPARTA!" in there.

[Silks]

Well the impression I get is that a lot of folks here who speak out agaisnt parrying just dont seem to like any of the modern sub systems. Ive already gone over the point about"living in the now" and what not but it doesnt seem to sink into peoples thick skulls. All I can say is that SF4 will probably play like a tittle that is being released in 08...not like something from 20 years ago.

I love parrying in the Soul Calibur series (be nice if namco would fix bugs in the system before releasing the game though. I've had enough 2G and 22G in my life)

I like the moves that have parrying properties in VF.

I don't like 3s parry, which is what it seems a lot of the pro parry people want in sf4 (not all, but a lot).

Hmm, do you see a pattern there? Two of those games are 3d. Hmm... wierd. But for the 900th time, I personally wouldn't mind a parry of some sort in sf4. Just make it fucking risky so the game doesn't revolve around it.

[Emil]

It's kind of like saying KoF's roll negates corner traps and is therefore less strategic. That argument assumes you need to have corner traps in order for a fighting game to be good and strategic. It shouldn't be considered bad just because the game works differently.

And for the record, kof roll doesn't negate corner traps, it just adds an extra variable that the trapper needs to consider. He can be patient and wait for the opponent to roll so he can punish...or stick to trapping with low recovery moves that would give the trapper enough time to punish a roll.

[KayinNasaki]

Besides, a successful roll does not necessarily lead to a change in momentum (Hell, if players know what they're doing, I don't think this should really happen much at all) and is extremely punishable and cannot be OSed for free roll attempts.

It's all about risk/reward. Parries can be rather low risk but have very large rewards. Rolls are high risk and generally low reward.

Edit: For the record I was just talking to some friends about this, and a girl, who doesn't play many fighting games heard me say that someone was comparing rolls with parries. To which she replied "Rolls? Can't you get punished for that shit? And.. can you really combo off them?"

So yeah. If this is common sense to a girl with mild fighting game experience, it should be clear to anyone on SRK.

[TS]

Boo-urns. Parry go home! Parry go home!

Assists and THCs in SF4 ftw!

Fuck. Yes.

Well the impression I get is that a lot of folks here who speak out agaisnt parrying just dont seem to like any of the modern sub systems. Ive already gone over the point about"living in the now" and what not but it doesnt seem to sink into peoples thick skulls. All I can say is that SF4 will probably play like a tittle that is being released in 08...not like something from 20 years ago.

You don't really have anything to contribute either by question of by answer, so you should probably stop posting in this thread. It's not that people don't understand what you're saying- it's that it doesn't matter. This is ignoring the fact that your point is flawed.

To answer that, I have the following questions:
Which is a better game: Legend of Zelda A Link to the Past or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
God of War 2 or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Chess or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Tetris or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Metal Gear Solid or Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?
Ignoring the fact that the correct answer to all of these questions is ST, my point is more what parry does in 3rd Strike, and how adding such an option actually limits others. ST gets brought up a lot, so I used that to contrast against 3S' system.

BTW should we not compare Metal Gear Solid to Syphon Filter or MGS2? God of War 1 to God of War 2? Tetris to Columns? They're all different, right?

Would you or anyone be able to demonstrate this point further maybe from a match video?

Haha, not really. That stuff in Viscant's post is for people who care about winnning more than I do. The best I could do, especially with ST since I'm not good at it, is point out basic positional advantages and setting up advantaged mixup situations and stuff like that. The more of an old man I become, the more the deeper stuff interests me though.

What I feel like SRK really needs is some sort of match video analysis thread. We can all be Scrubs Who Can't Even Watch Videos Right (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34757), just with different games. Even people who are hardcore about certain games and/or are tournament players can look at something they don't play, be it DOA4 or Vampire Savior or VF4 or MvC2 or whatever...and not really see the depth.

And on top of that, what's going on in the head of a top player is different from what an intermediate player is thinking, that you can even be OK at a game, and not really get what's going on. Like, I'm OKAY at Alpha 2, and I wanted to do a match breakdown of the famous Choi vs Valle A2 match from B3 (part 1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iB5IwNrHj4g), part 2 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XfZNpXvyk94)), but honestly that shit is hard to follow, even though most of it is just shoto vs shoto.

Anyway, yeah, we need a match vid analysis thread. I did something like that for A3 matches (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=126346) in the Alpha Anthology forum (mostly basic stuff, honest), but I think a big universal thread in Fighting Game Discussion would be a good way to offer insight to a lot of players about anything from Smash to GG to Arcana to Fatal Fury Special to whatever.

[caliagent#3]

Well the impression I get is that a lot of folks here who speak out agaisnt parrying just dont seem to like any of the modern sub systems. Ive already gone over the point about"living in the now" and what not but it doesnt seem to sink into peoples thick skulls. All I can say is that SF4 will probably play like a tittle that is being released in 08...not like something from 20 years ago.

not true. i don't find AC's in modern games that bad, i don't mind customs, rolls, etc. Problem is the 3s parry system and how the game plays because of it. Parrying isn't even "modern" considering the first game it was featured in (weaponlord) implemented it WAY better than 3s did.

[goodm0urning]

What I feel like SRK really needs is some sort of match video analysis thread. We can all be Scrubs Who Can't Even Watch Videos Right (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34757), just with different games. Even people who are hardcore about certain games and/or are tournament players can look at something they don't play, be it DOA4 or Vampire Savior or VF4 or MvC2 or whatever...and not really see the depth.

And on top of that, what's going on in the head of a top player is different from what an intermediate player is thinking, that you can even be OK at a game, and not really get what's going on. Like, I'm OKAY at Alpha 2, and I wanted to do a match breakdown of the famous Choi vs Valle A2 match from B3 (part 1 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iB5IwNrHj4g), part 2 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=XfZNpXvyk94)), but honestly that shit is hard to follow, even though most of it is just shoto vs shoto.

Anyway, yeah, we need a match vid analysis thread. I did something like that for A3 matches (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=126346) in the Alpha Anthology forum (mostly basic stuff, honest), but I think a big universal thread in Fighting Game Discussion would be a good way to offer insight to a lot of players about anything from Smash to GG to Arcana to Fatal Fury Special to whatever.Even if I do disagree with you regarding the subjective worth of the parry, I think that a match vid analysis area is a terrific idea.

[Embryo]

I love parrying in the Soul Calibur series (be nice if namco would fix bugs in the system before releasing the game though. I've had enough 2G and 22G in my life)

I like the moves that have parrying properties in VF.

I don't like 3s parry, which is what it seems a lot of the pro parry people want in sf4 (not all, but a lot).

Hmm, do you see a pattern there? Two of those games are 3d. Hmm... wierd. But for the 900th time, I personally wouldn't mind a parry of some sort in sf4. Just make it fucking risky so the game doesn't revolve around it.

Well it has been mentioned before that parrying wouldnt have to work like it did in 3s. Personally I wouldnt mind something like JDs in Garou or deflecting in LB2 which did have a whiff animation I believe. Parrying would be refined to adjust to the new game engine.

[hubcapsignstop]

yeah
weaponlord had a whiff animation too
and a similar motion to 3S (hold light attack tap towards; everything was negative edged in this game)
and i think different strength attacks from the opponent being parried lead to an appropriate recoiling from the opponent
damn that was an ill game
udon should remake that shit
or somebody else that can animate good

though id rather have something like this character specific rather than universal if at all

[BigRick70]

and i think different strength attacks from the opponent being parried lead to an appropriate recoiling from the opponent

that sounds nice

Anyways, I think that parries fits alot better in 3D fighters than 2D fighters

[Lazy Foo']

Ignoring the fact that the correct answer to all of these questions is ST

Really? That's a bold statement. What exactly are your reasons, specifically for chess?


BTW should we not compare Metal Gear Solid to Syphon Filter or MGS2? God of War 1 to God of War 2? Tetris to Columns? They're all different, right?


Nope, but you can't say Splinter Cell is better than Tetris because it's more stealthy.

[Silks]

How is that a bold statement? It's an opinion question. Go away already

[Lazy Foo']

How is that a bold statement? It's an opinion question. Go away already

Referring to something as "the correct answer" means something is objectively true, taking it out of the realm of opinion.

[polarity]

he was fucking joking you idiot

[goodm0urning]

Really? That's a bold statement. What exactly are your reasons, specifically for chess?Chess is for fat, boring people and ST is for fat people who like to see cartoon characters kicking the shit out of each other.

[Hellion]

Chess is for fat, boring people and ST is for fat people who like to see cartoon characters kicking the shit out of each other.

:rofl:

[jabhadouken]

Chess is for fat, boring people and ST is for fat people who like to see cartoon characters kicking the shit out of each other and get a vicarious sense of self-satisfied bad-assitude.

Cosigned, lol.

[Humbag]

I like parries.

It is similar to a heroin addiction.

In fact, I think its time I get some in me rrrrriiiigggghhhttt NOOWOWWWWWWW.

OHHH GOD THAT FEEEEEEEEEEEELS GOOOOOOOOOOOD.

[shinblanka]

I like parries.

It is similar to a heroin addiction.

In fact, I think its time I get some in me rrrrriiiigggghhhttt NOOWOWWWWWWW.

OHHH GOD THAT FEEEEEEEEEEEELS GOOOOOOOOOOOD.

Lolololololol. Why is this thread still open?

[Hawk]

Chess is for fat, boring people and ST is for fat people who like to see cartoon characters kicking the shit out of each other.

Sigged.

[(ÊlitÊ)]

I think that all good elements from previous SF serries should be kept since they are what made SF. First of all combo's and special moves like Hadoken en Shoryukens which were in the game since the first release. Than came Super Arts like Shinku Hadouken and Shooryu Reppa etc which were in the game since SSIIT and the alpha series while keeping the other elements from the previous versions. Than came parry's in the SF III series while keeping all the other elements form the previous versions. These are all elements that made SF into what is. None of these should be taken away. New stuff can and should be added ofcourse. But you dont break what makes the game. Capcom knows this so forget about taking parry's out. It's not gonna be taken out just like Hadouken wont be taken out. This Street Fighter 4 we talking bout. Note it starts with Street Fighter! Love it or hate it but don't try to break it.

Annyway Daigo made sure that wont happen when he fought Justin Wong on evolution and wrote SF history. Think about it. Do you really think Capcom is gonna take parry's out. Parry's are part of SF now just as much as Ryu and Ken are. They aint the type of guys that loose ability's once added. Check the history. Aint no doubt about it. Hell they might even add some more colloured parry's while they at it. Along with bleu and red parry's you might even expect to get green and black parry's. Ok now I'm pushing it lol. Whatever but it sure aint gonna be taken out nor replaced.

[polarity]

you need to brush up on your sf history son

[goodm0urning]

Annyway Daigo made sure that wont happen when he fought Justin Wong on evolution and wrote SF history.That single video has fucked up so many people's perception of what the core elements of Street Fighter are.

[Lazy Foo']

That single video has fucked up so many people's perception of what the core elements of Street Fighter are.

It also helped breathe new life into the Street Fighter community.

[Gaijinblaze]

Pff, who cares about that. SF doesn't need players.

[tataki]

Than came parry's in the SF III series while keeping all the other elements form the previous versions.

bzzt wrong by adding parry they removed hadoukens (and alot more) from the game.

It also helped breathe new life into the Street Fighter community.

adding chunxcammy hentai action would also make the game more popular but will it make it a better competitive game?

[Lazy Foo']

bzzt wrong by adding parry they removed hadoukens.

Fire balls are still effective for holding your opponent in place.

[Henaki]

bzzt wrong by adding parry they removed hadoukens (and alot more) from the game.

actually its more the fact that hadoukens are pathetically bad in 3s.

punishable on block at close range, no knockdown, horrible damage, no stun, no meter if they whiff, slow to come out. the only use for hadoukens are ex fireball (which is a pretty good fireball), and keeping the person locked down for a denjin. there are some pretty decent fireballs (oro and uriens aa fireball, remys are okay, lots of ex fireballs are useful in some way, akumas air fireball shuts down air to air options as he approaches).

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Whoa SFIII has Guard Bars and Isms?

Things get added and taken away from SF.

[Henaki]

Whoa SFIII has Guard Bars and Isms?

Things get added and taken away from SF.

lol this isnt relevant to anything at all

[ObsidianZ]

Fireballs aren't even safe on hit at close range. I remember having to train myself not to throw out cr.MK > hadoken all the time back in the day...

*ObZ

[Radiantsilvergun3]

lol this isnt relevant to anything at allIts relevant to the post about when they add stuff to SF they don't take it aaway which inst true tons of stuff in Alpha isn't in 3rd strike so yes it is relevent.

[Humbag]

Fireballs aren't even safe on hit at close range. I remember having to train myself not to throw out cr.MK > hadoken all the time back in the day...

*ObZ

Just do EX hadoken...

Problem solved.

[DevilJin 01]

Who needs fireballs.

[ObsidianZ]

Just do EX hadoken...

Problem solved.

Well, yeah I know that now.

But back when I was just starting, coming off of SF2, crMK > normal fireball was just instinct to me, and I always got punished for it.

*ObZ

[Rioting Soul]

It also helped breathe new life into the Street Fighter community.

It brought in a lot of new players that still need some SF2 book learnin.

[Lazy Foo']

It brought in a lot of new players that still need some SF2 book learnin.

People were sick of playing a set of games that fundamentally played the same.

3rd Strike brought in a low level mind games (or as theory fighters, who never actually place in the tournaments they seem to know so much about, like to call "guessing") based combat system. It was designed as a departure from long term strategy, pressure based combat because this form of combat is also very linear. As you can see today, people very much dig this form of non linear combat.

[Rioting Soul]

People were sick of playing a set of games that fundamentally played the same.

3rd Strike brought in a low level mind games (or as theory fighters, who never actually place in the tournaments they seem to know so much about, like to call "guessing") based combat system. It was designed as a departure from long term strategy, pressure based combat because this form of combat is also very linear. As you can see today, people very much dig this form of non linear combat.

They still need some SF2 book learnin I says.

[Lazy Foo']

They still need some SF2 book learnin I says.

Being a good 3rd Strike or ST player isn't mutually exclusive. See Alex Valle and Daigo.

If you try to play 3rd Strike like you would Super Turbo, you're going to get killed and to a lesser degree if you try to play Super Turbo like you would 3rd Strike you're going to eat it.

[TrueSephiroth]

Being a good 3rd Strike or ST player isn't mutually exclusive. See Alex Valle and Daigo.

If you try to play 3rd Strike like you would Super Turbo, you're going to get killed and to a lesser degree if you try to play Super Turbo like you would 3rd Strike you're going to eat it.

The problem wasn't that SFIII plays differently, the problem is that it's watered down the strategies and the multiple steps and setups of positioning that where involved in Pre-SF3 games, which is the problem.

The mere fact that parry did not improve, but watered the gameplay is the problem, not that SFIII "plays" different.

Fireballs where already so pathetic in SFIII "besides" Ex-Versions which is just simply outrageous, but having something like Parry in just makes it even worst.

I also agree on one of the earlier post about c.mk into Hadouken (Unless Ex-Version) not being safe on hit in SFIII is just simply terrible.

Parry was a game mechanic that did not improve the way we played SF, instead it went the opposite way...so how can that be better?

Honestly, I'd of thought that we'd of gone over this enough times already.

[Khiempossible]

he's talking about basic footsies and spacing.

a great 3s player needs footsies
a good one doesn't.

if you can guess what you're opponent is going to do (educated guessing based on previous situations and tells) you can do really well at 3s.

[Lazy Foo']

The problem wasn't that SFIII plays differently, the problem is that it's watered down the strategies and the multiple steps and setups of positioning that where involved in Pre-SF3 games, which is the problem.

...

Honestly, I'd of thought that we'd of gone over this enough times already.

If long term strategy, and set ups were the sole determinates of the quality of a game we'd all be playing chess. Chess has a almost an infinite amount more layers compared to any fighting game, but we still play them? Why? Because there's more than one factor of the quality of game.

What 3rd Strike sacrifices in long term strategy it makes up for in non linear combat. Because of the match can go any direction at any point where the players have control of their characters, there's a certain level of tension you don't get in Super Turbo.

Current implementations of the parry are flawed, but they can refined.

[Hellion]

there's a certain level of tension you don't get in Super Turbo.
Negative ghost rider.

[Master Chibi]

The match going at any direction at any point is the STUPID part of the damn game. That's like punishing someone for putting the work to hurt you in the first place.

How the fuck is that a good thing?

[Lazy Foo']

Negative ghost rider.

Actually I have video to back that up:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TF5IBE45gz4 @ 8:30

You don't get those down to the wire match ups. You don't the the players trying to judge what the other player's doing, trying to set each other up, trying to control space, trying bait each other knowing anything they do has a risk if they don't read their opponent correctly.

Strategy isn't limited to predetermined attacks.

[Lazy Foo']

The match going at any direction at any point is the STUPID part of the damn game. That's like punishing someone for putting the work to hurt you in the first place.

How the fuck is that a good thing?

Non-linear combat, the match is never over until it's over.

[Master Chibi]

Non-linear combat, the match is never over until it's over.

lol

Fighting games are linear now?

Shit, what is this, an RPG?

The same is true for every other fighting game ever made without parry. Look at the Evo 2k6 trailer with the ST match showcasing Afrolegends vs Daigo. Afro has Daigo down to a sliver of life in seconds, in what you say is a linear match, and seconds later, Daigo makes an absurd comeback that shouldn't have even been possible.

Linear combat. Ok there guy.

HIT SAGAT'S EYEPATCH FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE.

[kmasera]

there's a certain level of tension you don't get in Super Turbo
i don't think so, tim

[Lazy Foo']

lol

Fighting games are linear now?

Shit, what is this, an RPG?

The same is true for every other fighting game ever made without parry. Look at the Evo 2k6 trailer with the ST match showcasing Afrolegends vs Daigo. Afro has Daigo down to a sliver of life in seconds, in what you say is a linear match, and seconds later, Daigo makes an absurd comeback that shouldn't have even been possible.

Linear combat. Ok there guy.

There's a difference between linear and perfectly linear (IE X-men vs Street Fighter), and that video also shows how engaging combat that takes a sudden turn can get.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

Actually I have video to back that up:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TF5IBE45gz4 @ 8:30

You don't get those down to the wire match ups. You don't the the players trying to judge what the other player's doing, trying to set each other up, trying to control space, trying bait each other knowing anything they do has a risk if they don't read their opponent correctly.

Strategy isn't limited to predetermined attacks.You donlt know what the fuck your talking about. WHat you jsut described happend at Evo East ST Multiple times this year alone. Get the fuck out of here with that "doesn't happen" In Super Turbo shit because that all your spouting. Shit.

[Lazy Foo']

You donlt know what the fuck your talking about. WHat you jsut described happend at Evo East ST Multiple times this year alone. Get the fuck out of here with that "doesn't happen" In Super Turbo shit because that all your spouting. Shit.

Let me correct it then:
*doesn't happen as much.

Sorry but most if not all the videos and arguments against the parry in this thread focus on how much Super Turbo is oriented around rewarding the aggressor. Videos are constantly posted on how the player managed to control their opponents and limit their options because that's what people say ST is about.

However if you're right that comebacks and down to the wire matches happen all the time, that seems to directly contradict the talk about pressure and match control.

[Rioting Soul]

Being a good 3rd Strike or ST player isn't mutually exclusive. See Alex Valle and Daigo.

Alex and Daigo just so happen to not be part of the "new life" that the parry vid breathed into the SF community and are players with SF2 book learnin.

Now ain't THAT a coinkydink?

[Emil]

The match going at any direction at any point is the STUPID part of the damn game. That's like punishing someone for putting the work to hurt you in the first place.

No, it's like punishing someone for being repetitive enough that the opponent could take advantage of it. It's really not that much different from "guessing" by doing a reversal dp or super.

Just because you're putting work to hurt the opponent doesn't mean that it shouldn't be punishable for reasons such as it being too obvious. The addition of parry just gives the attacker another thing to consider...not just to act of putting pressure on the opponent, but to put the pressure on in a confusing and non-obvious manner.

The addition of parry results in more non-linear gameplay. The best players that are self-aware of their actions do well, and the ones that aren't tend to repeat similar patterns and are punished for it.

[polarity]

You don't get those down to the wire match ups. You don't the the players trying to judge what the other player's doing, trying to set each other up, trying to control space, trying bait each other knowing anything they do has a risk if they don't read their opponent correctly.

Let me correct it then:
*doesn't happen as much.

Sorry but most if not all the videos and arguments against the parry in this thread focus on how much Super Turbo is oriented around rewarding the aggressor. Videos are constantly posted on how the player managed to control their opponents and limit their options because that's what people say ST is about.

However if you're right that comebacks and down to the wire matches happen all the time, that seems to directly contradict the talk about pressure and match control.

christ, what the fuck are you even talking about? how can you say that ST doesn't have players trying to judge what the other player is doing, trying to set the other player up, trying to control space and trying to bait the opponent? how is that not the whole fucking game?

furthermore, how can setups, baiting, good guesswork and spacing even mean anything if there are no long-term consequences (i.e. getting pressured and controlled) if you fuck up? i think you're seriously delusional about just how powerful pressuring and limiting the opponent's options is in ST. "the advantage" isn't this magical situation that, once you get there, you can just turn your brain off and mash your way to victory. yes, getting a positional advantage is certainly very strong in ST (as it fucking should be to make any of the rest of the fighting mean anything), but you have still have to use all those skills to maintain your advantage, the difference is that your opponent has to work harder/take bigger risks to get back on an even footing. this is more 'setting the opponent up' than you ever see in 3S, so i have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

the only reason the end of that 3S match you linked is intense is because both players are at low life. almost any given moment of a match in ST can be as intense as that because one serious mistake can potentially put you in a situation that could lose you the match, whether you're at 5% life or 95%. in 3S, getting hit at the beginning of the round is practically meaningless.

in ST, in matches between similarly skilled opponents it's not uncommon to see them both fighting it out for incredibly minimal advantages with the momentum see-sawing either way constantly, much like in 3S (see the 10 match tsunoppi vs. otochun series just posted on youtube for a lot of pretty back-and-forth matches). difference is, in ST, that back and forth action actually means something (because it's not an inherent property of the game, unlike in 3s) and is intense no matter what the life totals are - you dont need both guys to be at 5% life to cheaply engineer an intense situation.

i don't see how the fact that a guy can come back at any second with minimal work involved is intense or impressive. there's practically no such thing as a bad situation in 3S, so all you have to do to come back is get one good guess and then mix it up a lot. it's far more impressive to see a comeback in ST, where not only do you have to mix it up, but you also have to fucking work (you know, using your brain) to get out of whatever shitty situation the opponent has put you in. it's true that you might see less comebacks in ST because of this, but on the other hand they're actually meaningful.

[Hellion]

how is that not the whole fucking game in ST?

Perhaps we should just ignore him, as Parry simplifies shit so much that all the mind games required in the past are null so less work is required.
He is, after all, just a Lazy Foo'

[Rioting Soul]

No, it's like punishing someone for being repetitive enough that the opponent could take advantage of it. It's really not that much different from "guessing" by doing a reversal dp or super.

Other than the fact that reversal specials and supers have whiff animations(which mean they can't be option selected), can be punished on reaction, don't overpower nearly 99% of all attacks in the game and aren't homogeneous then yeah, you're right.

Just because you're putting work to hurt the opponent doesn't mean that it shouldn't be punishable for reasons such as it being too obvious. The addition of parry just gives the attacker another thing to consider...not just to act of putting pressure on the opponent, but to put the pressure on in a confusing and non-obvious manner.

To the point that each player has to come to terms with the fact that, other than punishing or combos, any attack you commit to at any time could have no effect or even worse be your undoing.

The addition of parry results in more non-linear gameplay. The best players that are self-aware of their actions do well, and the ones that aren't tend to repeat similar patterns and are punished for it.

So HF/ST/A2/A3 players are not self aware of their actions? Players that are not aware of their actions in ST are not punished for it? Can you elaborate?

[Hellion]

not just to act of putting pressure on the opponent, but to put the pressure on in a confusing and non-obvious manner.

To the point that each player has to come to terms with the fact that, other than punishing or combos, any attack you commit to at any time could have no effect or even worse be your undoing.

He also has to explain how throwing a fireball can be confusing and non-obvious first.

[Lazy Foo']

christ, what the fuck are you even talking about? how can you say that ST doesn't have players trying to judge what the other player is doing, trying to set the other player up, trying to control space and trying to bait the opponent? how is that not the whole fucking game?

furthermore, how can setups, baiting, good guesswork and spacing even mean anything if there are no long-term consequences (i.e. getting pressured and controlled) if you fuck up? i think you're seriously delusional about just how powerful pressuring and limiting the opponent's options is in ST. "the advantage" isn't this magical situation that, once you get there, you can just turn your brain off and mash your way to victory. yes, getting a positional advantage is certainly very strong in ST (as it fucking should be to make any of the rest of the fighting mean anything), but you have still have to use all those skills to maintain your advantage, the difference is that your opponent has to work harder/take bigger risks to get back on an even footing. this is more 'setting the opponent up' than you ever see in 3S, so i have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

Take a look at the video you posted @ 0:50:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo9yOb_0HUw

You used this as an example of setting up in ST. It's an excellent example of maintaining space, and using pressure to limit your opponents options that ST is known for.

But rewind to 0:46. Chun's c.RH knocked Guile down and from there Chun used just ticks and fireballs to maintain position. One move got her in a position where a minimal set of moves allowed her land her the victory.

Now watch the AL v Daigo match @ 0:47:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J_bw37wUQKc

Using a single DP, Daigo managed to get in position to completely change the direction in the match in his favor.

the only reason the end of that 3S match you linked is intense is because both players are at low life. almost any given moment of a match in ST can be as intense as that because one serious mistake can potentially put you in a situation that could lose you the match, whether you're at 5% life or 95%. in 3S, getting hit at the beginning of the round is practically meaningless.

in ST, in matches between similarly skilled opponents it's not uncommon to see them both fighting it out for incredibly minimal advantages with the momentum see-sawing either way constantly, much like in 3S (see the 10 match tsunoppi vs. otochun series just posted on youtube for a lot of pretty back-and-forth matches). difference is, in ST, that back and forth action actually means something (because it's not an inherent property of the game, unlike in 3s) and is intense no matter what the life totals are - you dont need both guys to be at 5% life to cheaply engineer an intense situation.

i don't see how the fact that a guy can come back at any second with minimal work involved is intense or impressive. there's practically no such thing as a bad situation in 3S, so all you have to do to come back is get one good guess and then mix it up a lot. it's far more impressive to see a comeback in ST, where not only do you have to mix it up, but you also have to fucking work (you know, using your brain) to get out of whatever shitty situation the opponent has put you in. it's true that you might see less comebacks in ST because of this, but on the other hand they're actually meaningful.

There's an elephant in the room that's being ignored here and that's the role of the aggressor.

Does ST have players trying to judge what the other player is doing, trying to set the other player up, trying to control space and trying to bait the opponent? Of course, as those videos all show.

BUT once they successfully landed their set ups, it just became a linear game of maintaining their advantage. The aggressor doesn't get this luxury in 3rd Strike.

In 3S, for every set of attacks you land you have to try to judge what the other player is doing, try to set the other player up, try to control space and try to bait the opponent.

If you land short, short, super on Chun, you can't just tick and pressure the rest of the match to victory. You're going to have to set her up again to land more damage, then you're going to have to do it again. The fact that the aggressor doesn't have an enormous advantage prevent the matches from being linear. The roles of offense and defense are balanced so they can go either way.

This is also why long term strategy doesn't work in 3S because you can't just ride one set up to victory. You have to think of a set up for each set of attacks you land depending on the current situation.

[TS]

People were sick of playing a set of games that fundamentally played the same.

Well, actually, most SF2 players aren't huge fans of 3S. You're making it sound like all of the hardcore ST guys quit playing those games when the SF3 games out, when a lot of older players dropped the SF3 games instead.


3rd Strike brought in a low level mind games (or as theory fighters, who never actually place in the tournaments they seem to know so much about, like to call "guessing") based combat system.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=3851777&postcount=537

It was designed as a departure from long term strategy, pressure based combat because this form of combat is also very linear. As you can see today, people very much dig this form of non linear combat.

You seem to be using "non linear combat" the same way ugly guys say they're "untraditionally handsome." It seems very much like a euphamism.

That said, Capcom didn't really design the game that way... I think it was more the idea of keeping people from repeating something that was too good over and over again (dnd't really work, it seems), and that sort of thing. And also listening to complaints from scrubs (ie. block damage KOs, fireballs etc).

Let me correct it then:
*doesn't happen as much.

Sorry but most if not all the videos and arguments against the parry in this thread focus on how much Super Turbo is oriented around rewarding the aggressor. Videos are constantly posted on how the player managed to control their opponents and limit their options because that's what people say ST is about.


Well, you realize that parry is a defensive move... Therefore the negative impact on the agressor is much more clear, yes? It's pretty easy to list examples of how parry hurts defensive characters, too, the simplest being that it limits anti-air options, and any other good move wihch is used to maintain distance (Vega, Dhalsim, fireball characters etc).


However if you're right that comebacks and down to the wire matches happen all the time, that seems to directly contradict the talk about pressure and match control.
No, not really. It just means that someone was more sure of a counter/set of counters and was correct, since what they were doing was more likely to have consequences if they were wrong. Also ST is a fairly high-damage game, so if you have the right character your chances for being able to make a comeback can be higher.

The first part of the Afrolegends vs Daigo match, for those who haven't seen it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlpKqkKd2dM

Take a look at the video you posted @ 0:50:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo9yOb_0HUw

You used this as an example of setting up in ST. It's an excellent example of maintaining space, and using pressure to limit your opponents options that ST is known for.

But rewind to 0:46. Chun's c.RH knocked Guile down and from there Chun used just ticks and fireballs to maintain position. One move got her in a position where a minimal set of moves allowed her land her the victory.

You should ask KSK about the Alex vs Chun match in 3S sometime. He once said it was something like 9-1 in Chun's favor.

But you point out an ironic point in that match, as Guile actually sort of lost to mixup there- he was trying to counter the Chun crouching Forward and maybe worried about throws (see whiffed flash kick), so he ended up trying to counter poke too much and get out of the corner, and did himself in.

But in ST, in all games there are advantaged positions. You could just as easily say that it adds another dimension to the game, because now Guile has a weakspot vs Chun, and so there's another game involved of how Guile stays out of the corner, and the moves involved from each player which relate. Moreover, instead of just taking damge getting hit with the wrong thing can put you in a disadvantaged position (play some solid Balrog players in ST and end up anywhere remotely near the corner, and this will become immenently clear). So one might argue that even mixup has higher stakes.


etc. I'm not getting into it as much as I would maybe like to, but at least we're approaching a cogent argument in favor of 3S style parries.

[Kyokugen]

To me, parrying prevents someone from whoring a predictable, high priority poke until I die.

I have no comment on whether it should be in SF4 or not, though.



What is your take on P Groove in CvS2? Is that overpowered, too?

[archetype]

To me, parrying prevents someone from whoring a predictable, high priority poke until I die.




chun c.foward XX super?

[shinblanka]

Why is this thread still open?

[Adam Warlock]

To me, parrying prevents someone from whoring a predictable, high priority poke until I die.

Funny. Around here we use dragon punches.

[polarity]

There's an elephant in the room that's being ignored here and that's the role of the aggressor.

Does ST have players trying to judge what the other player is doing, trying to set the other player up, trying to control space and trying to bait the opponent? Of course, as those videos all show.

BUT once they successfully landed their set ups, it just became a linear game of maintaining their advantage. The aggressor doesn't get this luxury in 3rd Strike.

In 3S, for every set of attacks you land you have to try to judge what the other player is doing, try to set the other player up, try to control space and try to bait the opponent.

If you land short, short, super on Chun, you can't just tick and pressure the rest of the match to victory. You're going to have to set her up again to land more damage, then you're going to have to do it again. The fact that the aggressor doesn't have an enormous advantage prevent the matches from being linear. The roles of offense and defense are balanced so they can go either way.

This is also why long term strategy doesn't work in 3S because you can't just ride one set up to victory. You have to think of a set up for each set of attacks you land depending on the current situation.

did you even read my post?

i think you're seriously delusional about just how powerful pressuring and limiting the opponent's options is in ST. "the advantage" isn't this magical situation that, once you get there, you can just turn your brain off and mash your way to victory. yes, getting a positional advantage is certainly very strong in ST (as it fucking should be to make any of the rest of the fighting mean anything), but you have still have to use all those skills to maintain your advantage, the difference is that your opponent has to work harder/take bigger risks to get back on an even footing.

getting into an advantageous situation isn't usually the auto-win you seem to think it is. if you don't think otochun and daigo were also performing extremely calculated guesses while they rode those situations to victory, it's evident you know nothing about ST. in the otochun match especially, Guile could've swept any of those st.Forwards or flash kicked anything he did for a knockdown and regained the advantage. the fact that he didn't is a testament to the power of Otochun's mixup.

[Jida]

Make it stop....

[Henaki]

What is your take on P Groove in CvS2? Is that overpowered, too?

the bar is shitty and other groove have options just as overpowered (except S groove) and you have the shortest guard bar which means you cant just parry when you like.

[TaiPing]

Actually, the P-Groove parry system is fairly balanced. It is rare to do accidental parries like in 3S due to the smaller hit box.

[Khiempossible]

There's a difference between linear and perfectly linear (IE X-men vs Street Fighter), and that video also shows how engaging combat that takes a sudden turn can get.

whoa whoa whoa.

what the fuck is linear about xvsf?

don't start bringing other games in here.

what the fuck is linear anyway?
linear means to be "of" or "like" a line.

a line is defined as a specific path between 2 points.

Are you saying that a linear fighting game's matches have a specific outcomes for every starting point?

How the fuck is any game linear? Be it ST, XvSF or 3s?

[Kyokugen]

Funny. Last I checked, Hugo didn't have a dragon punch.

He's all I play in 3S.

[polarity]

whoa whoa whoa.

what the fuck is linear about xvsf?

don't start bringing other games in here.

what the fuck is linear anyway?
linear means to be "of" or "like" a line.

a line is defined as a specific path between 2 points.

Are you saying that a linear fighting game's matches have a specific outcomes for every starting point?

How the fuck is any game linear? Be it ST, XvSF or 3s?

what he means, although "linear" is a horrible way of expressing it, is a game where after a certain point your win is guaranteed, e.g. in xvsf after you start your infinite its pretty much game over for that character presuming you dont fuck up. this practically never happens in ST though so really he has no idea what he's talking about.

[Overswarm]

Couldn't parries be a lot more acceptable if they, say, took 10% of your current super bar level?

This would mean that the aggressor's super bar was continually raising (allowing him to do EX moves, supers, or wahtever SF4 has), while the defender's super bar was continually lowering by 10% (or whatever number works); even if the defender was perfect, eventually the aggressor would have a full super bar and have many more options than the defender.



Or, if you wanted things to be really simple, make parries raise the stun meter. Automatic fix. You can parry fireballs all day, but if you don't evade of block one of them normally every once in a while, you get stunned. Your opponent has a great approach and comes in flying and all you do is parry? You get stunned and he can pull off a super if he so chooses.

[Green]

I'd be OK with parries if:

1) They only worked on normals/UOs
2) The window of opportunity started from the initiation of the normal (i.e. the button press) and ended a few frames before the actual hit (1 frame for quick characters like Yun, 3/4 frames for characters like Hugo)

e.g. Yun has 4-1 = 3 frames to parry Ken's c.mk (well, I think it's 4 frames...) while Hugo might not be able to parry it at all.

[DevilJin 01]

Actually, the P-Groove parry system is fairly balanced. It is rare to do accidental parries like in 3S due to the smaller hit box.

I still get random ass parries all the time in CVS2. Granted the stricter timing makes things a bit more risky but you can still do all the option select craziness that you can in 3S. A good P groove player can be scary as shit. The main reason why P groove is balanced is because of its shitty one bar meter and no options for A groove shit. Otherwise parry does a really good job of shutting down a lot of shit in that game.

[TrueSephiroth]

I've used Claw up against P-Groove players before...and it's an absolute fucking nightmare sometimes. You just simply can't poke consistently to control your positioning...and you need that with Claw.

I don't see how a game engine mechanic that watered down how we play, and completely split the community in half should deserve to come back. I've been saying since forever, that if it doesn't help to improve the gameplay, then leave it the hell out of Street Fighter IV.

[TaiPing]

I still get random ass parries all the time in CVS2. Granted the stricter timing makes things a bit more risky but you can still do all the option select craziness that you can in 3S. A good P groove player can be scary as shit. The main reason why P groove is balanced is because of its shitty one bar meter and no options for A groove shit. Otherwise parry does a really good job of shutting down a lot of shit in that game.
I know. All I am saying that it is fairly more balanced, especially compared the 3S mechanics. In 3S, when I try to dash, I end up parrying sometimes. That has never happened to me in CvS2. Of course I still think there is more room for improvement, such as a smaller hit box and unparryable moves such as the Sonic Boom. Then again, unlike you, I rarely ever use P-Groove since it is not good, so I can't say much about it.
I've used Claw up against P-Groove players before...and it's an absolute fucking nightmare sometimes. You just simply can't poke consistently to control your positioning...and you need that with Claw.
I don't think people would mind Claw and Blanka getting shutdown to tell the truth. :p

By the way, I don't want parries in SF4.

[mad possum]

This is simple, SF needs to get back to a system that revolves around zoning and spacing, not randomness (i.e. parrying). But then I'm WAY old school, I would rather there weren't even Supers in it. Heck there are characters in 3S that can't do anything without meter (*cough Yun *cough Chun-li *cough). Who wants to see a bunch of characters running away, whiffing moves till they get meter. Give me old school SF.





By the way, a WeaponLord remake (with decent animation) would be awesome!

[KayinNasaki]

Parries are the god damned C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER of stratagy. :(

[Saotome Kaneda]

Why is this thread still open?
For the 49863890232th time, necessary evil. He probably would've made a thread on his own. Let the idiots get it out their system, because the only other answer is to ban anyone that mentions parry, which technically isn't fair. Is this a valid topic for discussion? Somewhat. Does it keep it from being stupid? Well, you've been here long enough, and have been active longer, you know how this shit goes.

[(ÊlitÊ)]

I think that all good elements from previous SF serries should be kept since they are what made SF. First of all combo's and special moves like Hadoken en Shoryukens which were in the game since the first release. Than came Super Arts like Shinku Hadouken and Shooryu Reppa etc which were in the game since SSIIT and the alpha series while keeping the other elements from the previous versions. Than came parry's in the SF III series while keeping all the other elements form the previous versions. These are all elements that made SF into what is. None of these should be taken away. New stuff can and should be added ofcourse. But you dont break what makes the game. Capcom knows this so forget about taking parry's out. It's not gonna be taken out just like Hadouken wont be taken out. This Street Fighter 4 we talking bout. Note it starts with Street Fighter! Love it or hate it but don't try to break it.

Annyway Daigo made sure that wont happen when he fought Justin Wong on evolution and wrote SF history. Think about it. Do you really think Capcom is gonna take parry's out. Parry's are part of SF now just as much as Ryu and Ken are. They aint the type of guys that loose ability's once added. Check the history. Aint no doubt about it. Hell they might even add some more colloured parry's while they at it. Along with bleu and red parry's you might even expect to get green and black parry's. Ok now I'm pushing it lol. Whatever but it sure aint gonna be taken out nor replaced.


Note:"I think that all good ellements..." <-- This is ofcourse based on my oppinion of good elements and therefore I don't need any updates on annything.

Annyway all I'm saying is that they aint gonna take out parry's for SF4. At least I don't think so. Ofcourse I can't know it for a fact but I am convinced they wont do it annyway. It's a damn good element of the game. Most SF players love it and it is unique to SF so it stays. And even if there are other games that have this than they just copycats which deserve no apreciation. All fighting games becide SF are copycats annyway. I see so much BS in this thread it makes me wonder if some of these people talking know annything about SF at all. I aint even gonna call em out. You can't teach a fool to be smart so..

And to you guys that say you so oldschool. I respect ya'll. oldschool is ok. If you think there should not be supers and no parry's that's cool. I aint hating cause those where cool times back in the days. Been there to. And it stays fun to that's for sure. But!!! We in 2007 going on to 2008 and you want people to stay on just zoning and shit!? Well that's cool if that's yo thing I respect that. But I mean come on. You can't expect SF4 to come out like that in 2008. They made a Super Turbo HD Remix even adding some shit for people like ya'll that love the old style over any other new style. Isn't that fair enough. Live and let live baby that's all I'm saying. I mean damn, get a 360 and wait for the HD Remix and you can have a ball again for a whole decade or two if that's your shit. But don't expect SF4 to come out like SF2 cause it aint gonna happen. Not in a million years man. And by the way who ever said zoning and spacing aint been part of SF3. So if it's been there and still is there and still will be there in SF4 there is no going back to annything lol. Just another good element of SF that will be kept in the game as always.

I would like to state that people that get these so called random parry's are just making mistakes. Dashing and getting a random parry means that in a situation without parry's you would be dashing into a hit from your opponent. Therefore your dashtiming was allready wrong to start with. Notting random about that parry. It's your own mistake. Parry saves your ass from being hit and you call it random. That don't make anny sence man. You just timed your dash wrong and got off good and thats all there is to it.


ps: shinblanka I don't know if you know this but you don't have to post nor read here. It's an option YES but you don't have to. Just like I would choose to ignore some post and react to others. It's your choice. Than again ofcourse posting random bullshit is a choice to so be my guest and knock yourself out.

[KayinNasaki]

While I disagree with almost everything you said, you at least managed to say it in a relatively nice, unoffensive way. Well. Besides for...

It's a damn good element of the game. Most SF players love it and it is unique to SF so it stays. And even if there are other games that have this than they just copycats which deserve no apreciation. All fighting games becide SF are copycats annyway.

Such ignorance is saddening. :( Just a clear a few things.

* Super Turbo did no invent supers. Art of Fighting 2 did. There is little doubt Capcom took this. I say this as an example of Capcom clearly stealing something from another game.

* Parries were not invented by SF3. Even Weaponlord(kekeke) had them and arguably implimented them better. Unlike the with the AoF example, I actually doubt Capcom stole from weaponlord (or whatever else had the mechanic), but it's not some original, magical capcom innovation. Almost all the games that have parries do them better (Blitzkampf~ <3).

* This whole thing is like saying no one else should of made an FPS after Doom because they'd all be Doom Copy-cats. That sort of silly attitude leads to a stagnated genre.

[Master Bigode]

* Super Turbo did no invent supers. Art of Fighting 2 did. There is little doubt Capcom took this. I say this as an example of Capcom clearly stealing something from another game.

It was AOF 1 dude.
BTW, Capcom once said that Super SF2 was supposed to have Supers, and was supposed to be released after CE.(Before AOF)
I might be wrong, but I believe that SNK stole Capcom's idea.

[KayinNasaki]

I thought AOF1 just had a guage that effected how well specials worked, and not real honest 'Supers'.

Anyways whither or not that was truthful on Capcoms part is in question ("no no! We were TOTALLY planning it, really!"), I'd be interested to hear more about this.

[polarity]

It doesn't seem that unbelievable, given we know that a) HF was made for/by the US market, so Capcom of Japan probably had a bigger SF2 project in the works and b) ST is what Super was supposed to be were it not rushed out.

Makes me wonder if HF was in development at the same time as Super. It certainly would explain why they went back to the old slower speed.

[drobizh]

fun is when you realize capcom will listen to the japanese and not you. you're acting like a bunch of bitches on jerry springer fighting for a guy who has one leg and only half his teeth.

[TaiPing]

fun is when you realize capcom will listen to the japanese and not you. you're acting like a bunch of bitches on jerry springer fighting for a guy who has one leg and only half his teeth.

That pretty much true. Namco got most of their final ideas for Tekken 6 from SBO5 and Japanese feedback, so I am not surprised that CAPCOM of Japan would do the same. Though, even if they are going to listen to Western feedbacks, they would be going to the CAPCOM BBS and not the SRK.

You should all travel to Super Battle Opera next year and make your stand. You know, support the arcade scene and all.

[Overswarm]

All fighting games becide SF are copycats annyway.

Smash?

[kmasera]

Smash?

it's not a copycat so much as it is an exercise in masochism

[(ÊlitÊ)]

While I disagree with almost everything you said, you at least managed to say it in a relatively nice, unoffensive way. Well. Besides for...



Such ignorance is saddening. :( Just a clear a few things.

* Super Turbo did no invent supers. Art of Fighting 2 did. There is little doubt Capcom took this. I say this as an example of Capcom clearly stealing something from another game.

* Parries were not invented by SF3. Even Weaponlord(kekeke) had them and arguably implimented them better. Unlike the with the AoF example, I actually doubt Capcom stole from weaponlord (or whatever else had the mechanic), but it's not some original, magical capcom innovation. Almost all the games that have parries do them better (Blitzkampf~ <3).

* This whole thing is like saying no one else should of made an FPS after Doom because they'd all be Doom Copy-cats. That sort of silly attitude leads to a stagnated genre.


First of all aof sucks.. Do you really play that game? With ryo the fake Ryu knockoff. You telling me Capcom stole from aof. That cheapass snk game. I'm sorry no offence but that's just my oppinion about that game. I got there "Anthology" (Hhmmm where did I here that before :wonder:) right here in my 2d fighting game collection. Annyway tell me where did ryo get that name from and how come he trying to shoot hadoukens like Ryu with the Shoto outfit and everything haha. :rofl:
I aint even gonna call out all the things they copied from SF with that game. I'd be writing all day than and those are just details annyway. Just like you say Capcom stole supers from aof it's still a detail of which you cant't say weather they were planning to do that allready or not.

What I'm talking bout is the concept. And there is no doubt that the concept of 2D fighting style we all still love today was created by Capcom. Taking a special move and adding more hits and flashes to it and than call it a super aint inventing annything new. That is what I call stealing a concept and just change it a lil. It's still a special move like a Hurricane kick or a Hadouken that was allready in the orginal game since it's first release as SF1. That's all I was trying to say man. And I aint trying to offend annyone. But this is a discussion right so I can give my oppinion in my own words.

:sweat:
And ok, maybe I'm a lil to fantic saying all fighting games are copycats. SF aint the verry first 2D fighter just as less as DOOM aint the verry first FPS annyway. There are some good fighting games out there like KOF and GGAC etc and I aint trying to diss em. But I think it's safe to say that DOOM put FPS's on the map just like SF put 2D fighting games on the map. Lol we kinda getting off topic with all this shit.

ps: TaiPing I am actionly glad they do. It worked out perfectly for me up until now and I share there oppinions as far as SF goes, but this aint Jerry Springer...

[shin_ryu]

i think parry should definitely be one of the features in SF IV because parrying is what made 3s more famous...a lot of people know 3s from daigo parrying justin wong and other crazy parry sequences...and i really think that parrying made 3s a much better game then it would have been without it

[Henaki]

aaaaaaaaaa

return to castle wolfenstein

[KING]

i see a lot of 07 newbs that must've grew up on 3s; fuck that game, btw. :)

parrying will NOT be in SF4; it's not an integral part of the essence of SF. if SF becomes a totally 3D game, then i can see it being necessary, but if it's 2D, it's definitely going to be swept under the rug for a new and innovative fighting game mechanic.

[kmasera]

if SF becomes a totally 3D game, then i can see it being necessary
could you explain why from a gameplay mechanics perspective that this would be conducive to good gameplay?

i'm just asking because of your assuredness in making that statement makes me think you have an interesting/unique reasoning for it

[barbarix]

I hope its not 3D.

[Spirit Juice]

All fighting games becide SF are copycats annyway.

LOL WUT

What kind of logic is that? By that definition, you may as well say any modern platformer today is a copycat of Super Mario Brothers. Or any FPS is a copycat of Wolfenstein 3D. Or every RPG is a copycat of Final Fantasy I. Nevermind that there have been various games of the same genre that play nothing like the games I just listed.

Terrible, terrible logic.

Actually, I wish you'd follow this to a T. Did you know that breathing is copying the first air breathing animal on Earth? I think you should stop because you're being an unoriginal copycat.

[polarity]

Or every RPG is a copycat of Final Fantasy I.

more like dragon quest

or ultima

[Khentimentiu]

it is unique to SF so it stays. And even if there are other games that have this than they just copycats which deserve no apreciation. All fighting games becide SF are copycats annyway. I see so much BS in this thread it makes me wonder if some of these people talking know annything about SF at all.

i lol'd

seriously tho stop being such a capcom fan boy, i like the game to but im not gona say something stupid like all fighters before or after (yes look it up there was fighters long before even sf1) stole from capcom, oh oh 1 more thing bloody roar was a 3d game with a parry and that came out before sf3, so capcom stole something from a 3d game EGADS a 3d game!!!!111one

[Eduardo24]

Why do people think the rpgs were created by the japanese? The genre was created was created by western studios. CRPGs for the win.

But anyway, I dont want parries in the game. I want the gameplay to resemble sf2.

[shin_ryu]

omg you're right kingdom im such a noob just because i joined this website this year doesnt mean i've never played sf the first game i played on the super nintendo was sf II so shut up...that was MY OPINION

[BRPXQZME]

* Parries were not invented by SF3. Even Weaponlord(kekeke) had them and arguably implimented them better. Unlike the with the AoF example, I actually doubt Capcom stole from weaponlord (or whatever else had the mechanic), but it's not some original, magical capcom innovation. Almost all the games that have parries do them better (Blitzkampf~ <3).I like G:MOW for the parrying just being BLOCKING AT THE VERY LAST SECOND. It's what I already do, anyway. Eh, maybe Neo-Geo was too big a part of my childhood for my SNK fanboy opinion to count, but I think Garou was a better SFIII than 3s... (as weird as that sounds... but then again I like NG and 2i as SFIII better than 3s; 3s is more like an SFIII side-story/dream-match as far as I'm concerned... basically, a game designed to be played for a very, very long time).

SFA2 had Alpha Counter in '96, and The Last Blade had a parry-like system at the end of '97, so obviously parrying seemed to be a good idea at the time to a lot of people. It's basically in GGXX and basically in MBAC... but perhaps the devs at Capcom will have something genuinely new up their collective sleeve....

[shoultzula]

parries are fine BUT there needs to be a risk for trying them. A wiffed animation is vital maybe something along the line of 7 frames of wiff animation for a visual confirm. This will get rid of OS but not take parring out of the game entirely. With it being 7 frames, its not exactly a 1\4 second which is just fast enough for people to do w\o practicing. 7 frames will push the limit of the punish and even if they don't react in time, the person who tried the parry won't try to parry again like in 3s. They will more than likely block, or try a poke.

parries are a good idea but the concept needs to be revised. It needs to be a command like hmm, say lp+mp for high and lk+mk for low. If you integrate parries into the joystick input, you can fuck up and accidently do them and get the wiff animation. Having them as a button command input or even a dual joystick\button input will negate that as long as it can be universal.

[shin_ryu]

if it is a combination of two buttons then the joystick/arcade buttons will break much faster as people will try to hammer them...i dont think thats a good idea but i do think that having a "punish time" for whiffing a parry and 7 frames sounds about right...maybe it's a little too much actually

[Dander]

tap down should not equal win.

for those who disagree don't play against decent chuns despite what they might think.



/thread.

[KayinNasaki]

First of all aof sucks.. Do you really play that game? With ryo the fake Ryu knockoff. You telling me Capcom stole from aof. That cheapass snk game. I'm sorry no offence but that's just my oppinion about that game. I got there "Anthology" (Hhmmm where did I here that before :wonder:) right here in my 2d fighting game collection. Annyway tell me where did ryo get that name from and how come he trying to shoot hadoukens like Ryu with the Shoto outfit and everything haha. :rofl:
I aint even gonna call out all the things they copied from SF with that game. I'd be writing all day than and those are just details annyway. Just like you say Capcom stole supers from aof it's still a detail of which you cant't say weather they were planning to do that allready or not.

What I'm talking bout is the concept. And there is no doubt that the concept of 2D fighting style we all still love today was created by Capcom. Taking a special move and adding more hits and flashes to it and than call it a super aint inventing annything new. That is what I call stealing a concept and just change it a lil. It's still a special move like a Hurricane kick or a Hadouken that was allready in the orginal game since it's first release as SF1. That's all I was trying to say man. And I aint trying to offend annyone. But this is a discussion right so I can give my oppinion in my own words.

:sweat:
And ok, maybe I'm a lil to fantic saying all fighting games are copycats. SF aint the verry first 2D fighter just as less as DOOM aint the verry first FPS annyway. There are some good fighting games out there like KOF and GGAC etc and I aint trying to diss em. But I think it's safe to say that DOOM put FPS's on the map just like SF put 2D fighting games on the map. Lol we kinda getting off topic with all this shit.

ps: TaiPing I am actionly glad they do. It worked out perfectly for me up until now and I share there oppinions as far as SF goes, but this aint Jerry Springer...


I'm not going to say the AOF games didn't rip off a million things -- but that doesn't mean they didn't do a few things Street Fighter didn't. And even if there was some originality and new stuff added, it doesn't mean the games don't suck. :rofl: Thats all.

[DevilJin 01]

tap down should not equal win.

for those who disagree don't play against decent chuns despite what they might think.



/thread.

I've played against a lot of decent Chuns and when they tapped down...they still lost. Usually they have to start throwing pokes like c.MK and b.HP to scare you. Then they have a chance.

[{PFH}-Lake]

this thread sucks

[DevilJin 01]

this thread sucks

Yeah...it lost its epicness a while ago. Like the last thread.

[Dander]

I've played against a lot of decent Chuns and when they tapped down...they still lost. Usually they have to start throwing pokes like c.MK and b.HP to scare you. Then they have a chance.

you didn't disagree. so my point stands.

and when I said tap down, I meant that they parry your low attack and comboed into their super. unless they parried ibukis jab, they're going to get it.

[Jida]

this thread sucks

Nuh-uh :annoy:

[Hawk]

Parries = strategy destroyer

Think you got a good plan to counter act what your opponent is doing? Guess again! It just got parried. Ruins everything.

[DevilJin 01]

Parries = strategy destroyer

Think you got a good plan to counter act what your opponent is doing? Guess again! It just got parried. Ruins everything.

Makes me feel good about myself. That's not a joke...I'm actually dead serious for once.

you didn't disagree. so my point stands.

and when I said tap down, I meant that they parry your low attack and comboed into their super. unless they parried ibukis jab, they're going to get it.

LOL. I was never disagreeing with you to begin with. The entire post I made was a joke. Jokes lead to discussion and the circle of SRK keeps moving. I pretty much agree with all the people who don't like parry even though I do like parry.

Yeah...against Chun Li you do a lot of low blocking and parrying low forward and then just blocking like a scared cat even if you parry if she has meter. Unless you know you're going to get a physical hit on her it's risky to throw pokes at her once she has meter. Which is why you see a lot of Ibuki players resort to f+MK and throwing kunais from the air to stay away from her c.MK mind games.

An Ibuki player wouldn't use jab against Chun Li much any ways since Chun ducks under it completely. f+MK is used most often in the match up since Chun can only punish it with c.LP to super at closer ranges. f+MK is unpunishable outside of close range even on parry. Which means you're mainly using it from a distance or running it when she doesn't have meter to avoid c.MK and start option select mind games to move in. Which then you're trying to eventually get a s.MK to hit and so on.

[haaris_abbasi]

They parry system is needed. I don't care what anyone says. The 3rd strike parry system is by far the best version. Menstrual Blood sucks because it has a button for it and it doesn't really do shit other than if you want your opponent to look stupid when playing. The 3rd strike parry system allows people to go in safely against those that turtle if it was extremely punishable as some people want it, top tier players will bait it out all day and these newbs will have something new to complain about. If it does not exist, then there is no way of jumping in safely or even fighting turtlers. Pressure tactics my ass. This will make the game an extremely tier based and oriented game without a 3rd strike style parry system. The timing is basically perfect along with the red parry system.

[DevilJin 01]

^^^^

Master Chibi will love this. :lol:

[TaiPing]

I pretty much agree with all the people who don't like parry even though I do like parry.
I think most of us feels that way.

[Henaki]

^^^^

Master Chibi will love this. :lol:

if he had an avatar with an anime girl with huge tits chibi would probably commit suicide in confusion

[KayinNasaki]

Hi guys, I'm a young gentleman who never has played any other fighter seriously and have delusions, such that turtling is an unbeatable stratagy and that 3rd Strike is a balanced game. Please help me by flaming me.

Sure thing, good friend.

LEARN TO PLAY A GOD DAMNED GAME THAT ISN'T 3RD STRIKE. Or learn to play any game for that matter.

If I go to watch other games that aren't 3rd Strike I definitely do not see nothing but turtles and no one jumping.

[Master Chibi]

They parry system is needed. I don't care what anyone says. The 3rd strike parry system is by far the best version. Menstrual Blood sucks because it has a button for it and it doesn't really do shit other than if you want your opponent to look stupid when playing. The 3rd strike parry system allows people to go in safely against those that turtle if it was extremely punishable as some people want it, top tier players will bait it out all day and these newbs will have something new to complain about. If it does not exist, then there is no way of jumping in safely or even fighting turtlers. Pressure tactics my ass. This will make the game an extremely tier based and oriented game without a 3rd strike style parry system. The timing is basically perfect along with the red parry system.

wtf+1

yeah fucking right like im going to take this shit seriously

i'm not the public representative for mb, shit if I care

:rofl:

Parry is stupid, go fuck yourself.

[Humbag]

Sometimes all you people make me very mad.

[goodm0urning]

Sometimes all you people make me very mad.Yeah, really. I don't care who you are or what you think: the persistent activity of this thread makes baby jesus cry.

[drobizh]

i don't know about you but if you could parry fireballs in sf4 it would be sweet that they would do more damage more stun and be faster or something. so if you mess up you're fucked. that's the only thing i don't like about 3s - fireballs.

[Master Chibi]

wtf

are you serious?

holy shit, why aren't you just playing karate champ then

[RLP]

parrys ! them shits rocks, even though i suck at doing parries lol.

[Humbag]

Some quality material coming from some people in this thread.

[shin_ryu]

being a strategy destroyer is a good thing because imagine if you were playing someone and you already know what you're gonna do and what buttons you're gonna hit and whatever...parrying keeps you/spectators at the edge of your seat that's what makes it so good

[Hawk]

Some quality material coming from some people in this thread.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4546486&postcount=486

I stand by my request.

[shin_ryu]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4546486&postcount=486

I stand by my request.

don't post just to hate on people if you don't like what's going on in the thread/forum then just don't write anything and leave it alone

[KayinNasaki]

being a strategy destroyer is a good thing because imagine if you were playing someone and you already know what you're gonna do and what buttons you're gonna hit and whatever...parrying keeps you/spectators at the edge of your seat that's what makes it so good

Damn straight

MASH THAT SHIT DOWN.

God, I wish someone said this sooner.

[Henaki]

don't post just to hate on people if you don't like what's going on in the thread/forum then just don't write anything and leave it alone

what if i said you are hilarious

[Kataklysmic]

Looking through all this, it seems to me that anyone who favors parrying in SF4 would much prefer games in which outcomes are left to chance rather than hard work.

Not to say that there's no work involved in reading people given they can do the same to you. But if they can nullify everything you do with the same simple joystick input that you're givin, that just throws everything into an endless loop where nothing you do is safe, effective options are limited to the barest, most minute details of the game system, and the only goal to achieve is to pray that you guess right and don't fuck up. 3S is a game purely dependant on execution and chance. How anyone can say there's real strategy involved is beyond me. It's tense, sure. But fun? No.

Yes, universal features are a must these days, and I for one offer my sincerest welcome to them. But if they can't help characters on the basis of individual strengths anymore than each of the 18 + variations of normal moves, what good are they? Parrying just kills variety to a point where a character isn't allowed to play like he was designed outside of the few moments where the other character is open. Aren't characters what define SF, and 2D fighters as a whole? If you must have parrying, then keep playing 3S and CvS2, and hope they include it in more Vs. games should they decide to make anymore. Or better yet, just to stick to VF and Tekken where normal moves are all that SHOULD matter.

For SF4 to have any sort of impact, it needs to have a fresh start.

[Humbag]

God damn.

I just woke up.

Parried the shit outta this girl in my bed.

Proceeded to combo the living daylights out of her.

Went back to sleep.

Thank god for parries.

[MiLky]

God damn.

I just woke up.

Parried the shit outta this girl in my bed.

Proceeded to combo the living daylights out of her.

Went back to sleep.

Thank god for parries.

When comboing girls, if you rushdown to fierce, there is always a chance of slipping out. If it misses the hole, and you miss dat parry, hopefully you at least get the red parry to not break the cock, bruised is better than broken.

Other than that, I agree with others that SF4 needs a fresh start, just like SF3 tried. We can all argue for years to come about the new feature that makes it less like SF2, or even SF3 this time. We got Remixed SFHD coming, so hopefully that gets my old school blood pumping, for SF4, I just hope it's good.

[Embryo]

Well I do agree that SF4 does need to break out as its own unique entity, but they could risk coming off as dated and boring if they do not include modern gaming conventions. I guess we just have to see what Capcom has planned.

[polarity]

parrying is a 11 year old mechanic, thats hardly "modern"

also note that sfa3 and mvc2 both came out after sf3, didnt include parrying and were both more successful than sf3 so....

[hellhound]

So far in every street fighter game they always add a new mechanic of play so I expect a new system for SF4. If it's 3D then maybe a side-step action or an arm/leg hyper extention injury that prevents the opponent to do super moves like fireballs for a short period of time.

[shin_ryu]

what if i said you are hilarious

ok...thanks?

[(ÊlitÊ)]

I really don't get some people in here. Reacting on things that clearly have allready been clarrified for evryone. They still feel like they gotta run they mouth shoot out poop. Seems to me they don't understand english. And I thought my english was bad. Learn to read is all I got to say to people reacting on the part of my post saying that that all fighting games are copycats. OMG you peeps are amazingly unable. :wgrin:

Annyway. All I have to say now is that SF4 is a real sequal.
It's a sequal of a 2D fighting game. Therfore it will be 2D. It's only logic since it's a sequal. StreetFighter, StreetFighter 2, StreetFighter 3, StreetFighter 4 get it?
Now, since it's a sequal it will be building on it's previous release which is SF 3 Third Strike. Parry is part of it. If you don't like Third Strike because of parry's that's fine. But chances are high you wont like SF4 either cause mark my word. Parry's aint leaving. If you