Parry thread

[Lvl.3]

Didn't the brazilian/EGM leak state there will be no parry? maybe this should be moved into the fighting discussion?

[R_T_S_D]

why does the man have to hate on chris hansen? he must be a chester molester.

Why don't you take a seat, right over there?

[Monte]

Didn't the brazilian/EGM leak state there will be no parry? maybe this should be moved into the fighting discussion?

yup it's official. if you read that 1up blog post it says, "He [Douglas Pereia] also posted info directly from Shane's sidebars."

[(ÊlitÊ)]

It's a lot of BS. That's all it is.
These fools be talking about Sheng Long.
Sheng Long don't even exists. So why believe the rest...

[Yurinka]

Well Capcom changed/improved the "parry" system in almost every SF game since SFA (alpha counters).

Now the characters are in 3D, so Capcom can do more ellaborated things (see the SF4 trailer, where Ryu dodges some Ken's attacks). I think the new iteration of the "parry" system it's related to it.

[Saotome Kaneda]

Didn't the brazilian/EGM leak state there will be no parry? maybe this should be moved into the fighting discussion?
Niggas are still gonna cry about no parries, so this thread will stay alive so people who don't care will reply to them.

[jabhadouken]

Well Capcom changed/improved the "parry" system in almost every SF game since SFA (alpha counters).

And now, in SF4, they have officially perfected it. :wgrin:

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Victory is ours.

[Redmyst]

Why do people think that parring is so bad? I have been playing 3rd Strike for about four months and I see that it can be helpful if you can do it like it was second nature. Other from that, it hurts like heck when you think you do it but you eat a combo because you timed it wrong.

[Leebee Link]

Why is this topic still here?

Parrying's confirmed out. Just close this shit and go back to third strike.

[COUM]

It's explained why it's still here like, 6 posts up.

[Leebee Link]

It's explained why it's still here like, 6 posts up.

Fair enough. Better one topic than countless more.

[Saotome Kaneda]

Fair enough. Better one topic than countless more.
FINALLY we understand. =p

[New Era Outlaw]

Just my two cents on the matter...

Now, to me, Parries were pretty okay in 3.
It added a lot of emphasis on strategic timing in that game, so anybody who knows how to parry and parry well in that game can turn around a match simply by waiting and capitalising on an opponent's mistake. People relied a bit less on chipping at a distance, and more on waiting to see who jumps the gun first, so to speak. To me, it's what made SF3 stand out, as such.

However, there were times when I missed the old 'bait and blast' gameplay of the older titles. That really felt like the old SF to me. Games also semed to move a lot faster back then without having to worry if whatever you're going to toss is going to be countered in some way. So, with that in mind and the fact that this game comes right after SF2 and before SF3, I think that it was somewhat of a good decision to remove parries. Probably compensate with some of the suggestions I've seen here earlier for countering purposes.

[KayinNasaki]

And now, in SF4, they have officially perfected it. :wgrin:

Hah! Epic Burn.

Just my two cents on the matter...

Now, to me, Parries were pretty okay in 3.
It added a lot of emphasis on strategic timing in that game, so anybody who knows how to parry and parry well in that game can turn around a match simply by waiting and capitalising on an opponent's mistake. People relied a bit less on chipping at a distance, and more on waiting to see who jumps the gun first, so to speak. To me, it's what made SF3 stand out, as such.

However, there were times when I missed the old 'bait and blast' gameplay of the older titles. That really felt like the old SF to me. Games also semed to move a lot faster back then without having to worry if whatever you're going to toss is going to be countered in some way. So, with that in mind and the fact that this game comes right after SF2 and before SF3, I think that it was somewhat of a good decision to remove parries. Probably compensate with some of the suggestions I've seen here earlier for countering purposes.

TACTICAL timing (nitpicknitpick).

Well 3s is 3s and that shouldn't be changed, the issue people have with parries continuing in 3s is what constitutes a mistake is much broader and option narrowing. Someone gave the example of Remy pressuring out to max pox range and using one his longest poke. That constitutes a mistake because it's the only move he could do in that situation so the parry attempt is free. This might be beatable in other games (SHORYUKEN) but at least the Shoryu adds a cost of failure to the guess and doesn't combo into a super for big damage.

[UltraDavid]

TACTICAL timing (nitpicknitpick).
It's not a nitpick, it's an important point that you're 100% correct on. Parry adds to the tactical games in that it's vitally important that you have choose correctly among your various tactical options at all times, but it detracts from strategic options.

Don't forget, that it's also possible to parry a lot of things on reflex. Such as fireballs, air to air attacks, anti-air attacks and jump-in attacks. All of these are areas where ST affords players far fewer options. By adding parrying, you don't lose any of the ST fundamentals.
You lose them to a huge extent, actually. Some fireballs are still of limited use in 3S, but their uses and effectiveness are drastically, drastically reduced. Air to air attacks are just like standing next to someone on the ground in 3S, only the guessing game is simpler; it's just a game of "when am I going to press a button, when are you going to press a button". Antiairs and jump-ins have already been covered, 3S takes the most purely "You win if your strategy is better" part of non-parry games and makes it a straight-up guessing game.

1.If you should be able to defend against anything with flatline of health.

2. In SSF2T, if you are able to hit the person when you jump in and they throw a fireball, you are able to do so in 3rd strike. The person cannot go into parry without full recovery.
You can defend against things with a pixel of health in non-parry games, but it's all about which character you've picked, and in most cases you're dead anyway. I am fine with this. Again, if I've kicked your ass well enough in a round so that you're down to one pixel, why should you suddenly lessen my advantage just for getting beaten? That makes no sense to me, and your example doesn't either. As for whether you can hit a person after they throw a fireball, uhhh, sure, but all games, even parry games, punish retarded spacing. What's this point about again?

I'm unclear how you differentiate the strategy behind ST and 3S. In both games every character is fighting for two things (a) big damage and (b) ideal spacing. Can we agree on this? Zangief and Hugo both want to be next to their opponents. Remy, Dhalsim and Sagat all have ideal spots on the field. The only difference that I see is how Hugo and Zangief get to their ideal spots. Hugo has to be more careful in his actions then Zangief. If Hugo and Zangief both have ultra high priority jump-ins, Zangief would be able to abuse his but Hugo would not because he could get parried.

Here is the big difference between 3S and ST, and the reason why folks dislike parries: In ST you calculate everything you do based on the priority, speed and power of your characters abilities in comparison to your opponent's abilities. Boxer can rush down, because he's good at that. In 3S you calculate everything you do based on on the priority, speed and power of your characters abilities in comparison to your opponent's abilities and you have to take into consideration what your opponent is thinking. Dudly can rush down and get big ground combos, he just can't get predictable in his tactics or else it'll be a lot easier to punish him.
All fighting games are to at least some extent about space control and going for big damage. In parry games, though, both of these aspects are nerfed. Hugo has an ideal spot, sure, but the point is that once he gets to that ideal spot, he gains less of an advantage than Zangief does when he gets to his. Even in the case of good characters, Chun gains less of an advantage for being in the right spot than Sim does, even though Chun can deal huge damage quickly and Sim can't. The reason is the parry; it lessens every advantage and softens every disadvantage, because in nearly every case a disadvantaged player can not only escape a bad situation but deal big damage doing it by merely guessing down or toward. The "going for big damage" part is nerfed too, as you admit when you say that Hugo wouldn't be able to go for his high-priority jump-ins. Parry games force you to not always go for your best option because your opponent knows your best option and knows you're likely to go for it, and he can gain the advantage just because he knows that. As a result you're forced to go for throws, non-big combos, empty jump-ins, and so on, and those don't lead to big damage.

I think you're mislabeling the differences; in ST you have to take into account what your opponent is thinking, and in 3S you have to take into account what your opponent is guessing. ST is mostly a battle of strategies, it's mostly about who can execute his strategy better. 3S is more of a battle of mixups; if I think my opponent is going to press strong-fierce, I block, press toward, or wake up with something, if I think he's going to press down + short, I block low, press down, or wake up with something, if I think he's going to sit still I block or throw, etc. Sure, ST involves guessing in that you're guessing your opponent's strategy and if you're forced into a bad spot you have to guess your way out, and sure, 3S involves strategy in that you need to get to a situation where you start your mixups, but the relative importance of strategy to guessing in ST is way higher than it is in 3S.

Yes, parrying adds a level of guessing and guesswork but it also forces you to be unpredictable and to predict your opponents actions... but its not random.
This doesn't make much sense to me. "Guessing" and "predicting" are basically synonyms; if you guess, you're predicting an outcome, and if you're predicting, you're guessing what an outcome is going to be. Your sentence reads, "Parrying adds a level of guessing and guesswork but it also forces you to play so that the opponent doesn't guess what you're guessing and to guess what your opponents' actions will be." Or it could be the opposite, "Parrying adds a level of predicting an outcome and prediction..." Don't try to fool yourself into thinking these aren't the same things. It might not be random, but only because humans aren't random. If I could play 3S and then, every time I have the opponent knocked down with me over him, suddenly turn into a random number generator, I would do it for sure, because I'd become literally unpredictable, aka as dangerous as possible in 3S; play with strategy and spacing until I get to the spot I want, and then become a set of dice. Playing like this in non-parry games would get you destroyed.

Again, I'm not saying parry games are bad, only that they necessarily have less strategy and more guessing. I don't like that at all, but that's fine if you do, just don't kid yourself into thinking that the same kind of strategy is still there.

[Atb_555]

Honestly if SF4 had Garou's version of JDing and GCing (Guard Cancelling) then it would be perfect.

[FreshOJ]

Honestly if SF4 had Garou's version of JDing and GCing (Guard Cancelling) then it would be perfect.

Please....no Just Defending!!! No no no! I had enough of that in Capcom vs. SNK 2 within the first few days of playing against people using K-Groove to see that it is one of the most turtle-friendly game features to ever be put into a fighting game. (I would have to play against a K-Kim Kaphwan my first time out, too.)

Game Designer 1: Hmmm....let's make it so that if I hold back at the very last second to block an attack, I get an advantage.

Game Designer 2: What if you hold back too early?

Game Designer 1: The attack just gets blocked.

Game Designer 2: Ummm....sure, why not?! It's original!

I rue the day that showed up in Samurai Shodown. Talk about safe.

As for Guard Cancelling, anything that you enable *while* you're in block stun, is generally too safe to make gameplay balanced. If characters absolutely need a counter or something like that, make it so that you have to anticipate the attack, not passively react to blocking it......and then MAKE SURE IT HAS A CONSEQUENCE IF YOU MISTIME IT! That's what should've happened with parries, but noooooooo.

And, no, I didn't like Alpha Counters when they first showed up in SFA1...for the same exact reason.

Anyway, I still hope parries are no more, even if they did make them anticipatory moves with a recovery animation. If they included something like that, you'd need a whole bunch of other universal game mechanics changes (i.e. GOOD dashes, small jumps that you can combo off of, being able to attack, recover, and attack again in mid-air, etc.) in order to give the characters tools to get around it.

(Here's where I bring back the old a.g.sf2 days...)

Bottom line: 'cause a game should reward you for taking a risk, not for playing it safe and letting your opponent assume all the risk for you.

[Ghettoontherise]

Back on topic,

Parrys always added a different layer to sf that isn't present in the other games. I mean sure AC's and counter attacks were in other games, but they required meter, and they required you to block something, which in some cases meant your death anyway if you were too low on health. 3s always made you think a little more about that safe sweep, or that abusable move...if just a little. For example, Chun Li in A2>Chun Li in 3s. They're both beasts, but the system always seemed like it gave you a chance in 3s no matter who you picked against Chun.

Personally tho, I'm glad they're gone. I am kinda worried that this isn't gonna be the new coming of SF, but if they put some new shit in the game I'll be happy (I mean, it's gotta have something that makes it different from all the other SF series right).

[Atb_555]

Please....no Just Defending!!! No no no! I had enough of that in Capcom vs. SNK 2 within the first few days of playing against people using K-Groove to see that it is one of the most turtle-friendly game features to ever be put into a fighting game. (I would have to play against a K-Kim Kaphwan my first time out, too.)

Game Designer 1: Hmmm....let's make it so that if I hold back at the very last second to block an attack, I get an advantage.

Game Designer 2: What if you hold back too early?

Game Designer 1: The attack just gets blocked.

Game Designer 2: Ummm....sure, why not?! It's original!

I rue the day that showed up in Samurai Shodown. Talk about safe.

As for Guard Cancelling, anything that you enable *while* you're in block stun, is generally too safe to make gameplay balanced. If characters absolutely need a counter or something like that, make it so that you have to anticipate the attack, not passively react to blocking it......and then MAKE SURE IT HAS A CONSEQUENCE IF YOU MISTIME IT! That's what should've happened with parries, but noooooooo.

And, no, I didn't like Alpha Counters when they first showed up in SFA1...for the same exact reason.

Anyway, I still hope parries are no more, even if they did make them anticipatory moves with a recovery animation. If they included something like that, you'd need a whole bunch of other universal game mechanics changes (i.e. GOOD dashes, small jumps that you can combo off of, being able to attack, recover, and attack again in mid-air, etc.) in order to give the characters tools to get around it.

(Here's where I bring back the old a.g.sf2 days...)

Bottom line: 'cause a game should reward you for taking a risk, not for playing it safe and letting your opponent assume all the risk for you.

I dont think you know enough about GCing in Garou. You have to buffer the motion of the special you want to GC with then tap back to JD and press the appropiate button to actually GC successfully. Its insanely difficult to GC on reaction in Garou.

http://www.neoempire.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63227&postcount=1

[Luigi-Bo 87]

I dont think you know enough about GCing in Garou. You have to buffer the motion of the special you want to GC with then tap back to JD and press the appropiate button to actually GC successfully. Its insanely difficult to GC on reaction in Garou.

http://www.neoempire.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63227&postcount=1

And how. I wish they had that in CvS2.

[Atb_555]

I think it would of made K groove pretty broke if they did tbh.

[FreshOJ]

I dont think you know enough about GCing in Garou. You have to buffer the motion of the special you want to GC with then tap back to JD and press the appropiate button to actually GC successfully. Its insanely difficult to GC on reaction in Garou.

http://www.neoempire.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63227&postcount=1

Ok, you got me. :) I won't claim to be an expert on any Fatal Fury game after Real Bout Special. (I was a prime contributor to the Neo*Geo Mailing List, too.)

Still, based on your response and the link you included in your post, I think my claim of Just Defend being too safe is still valid. What consequence do you reap if I hold back to block too early? Virtually none. You end up blocking (and taking block damage, if applicable). Unless you're telling me that the command to Just Defend is actually tap back and then quickly return the stick to neutral, which would be the only way you'd be open to attack, your risk for trying that tactic is very minimal...hence......too safe...and too turtle-friendly.

Oh...wait a minute! Not only that...but, unless the window is 1 or 2 frames wide, I'm very sure that someone could employ the tactic you described and train themselves to press the appropriate button for the special move when they hear and/or see the Just Defend notice on the screen or simply hold back if they don't! Again...very safe.

The only true consequence comes if you try to do it too late and you get hit...obviously. The same consequences should be there for execution that is either too early *or* too late. One is obviously more safe than the other.

That's why I think my argument holds. I know I don't have the experience that you do with Mark Of The Wolves (I'm guessing that's what you're talking about), but just looking at the play mechanics, applying what I know, and weighing that against what you've told me leads me to this conclusion.

[Luigi-Bo 87]

Yeah, people will always hate on JD for that. I can't really say I blame them either. There's a whole lot more risk involved in parrying. I don't know if this is treu for 3s, but in CvS2, if you tapped forward and returned the stick to neutral, you got more time to parry than if you tappef forward and kept it there.

[Atb_555]

Heyyy.:sad:

Maki owns. I've actually done decent with Maki in tournies even though I don't play anymore.

Lol no I was actually repping you back there ;)

Its a London slang

[Atb_555]

Ok, you got me. :) I won't claim to be an expert on any Fatal Fury game after Real Bout Special. (I was a prime contributor to the Neo*Geo Mailing List, too.)

Still, based on your response and the link you included in your post, I think my claim of Just Defend being too safe is still valid. What consequence do you reap if I hold back to block too early? Virtually none. You end up blocking (and taking block damage, if applicable). Unless you're telling me that the command to Just Defend is actually tap back and then quickly return the stick to neutral, which would be the only way you'd be open to attack, your risk for trying that tactic is very minimal...hence......too safe...and too turtle-friendly.

Oh...wait a minute! Not only that...but, unless the window is 1 or 2 frames wide, I'm very sure that someone could employ the tactic you described and train themselves to press the appropriate button for the special move when they hear and/or see the Just Defend notice on the screen or simply hold back if they don't! Again...very safe.

The only true consequence comes if you try to do it too late and you get hit...obviously. The same consequences should be there for execution that is either too early *or* too late. One is obviously more safe than the other.

That's why I think my argument holds. I know I don't have the experience that you do with Mark Of The Wolves (I'm guessing that's what you're talking about), but just looking at the play mechanics, applying what I know, and weighing that against what you've told me leads me to this conclusion.

I see your point but in practice (along with guard bars) it works well I think. Maybe if they tightened the timing it would be perfect.

[Luigi-Bo 87]

Lol no I was actually repping you back there ;)

Its a London slang

That's what I thought. No one bad mouths my Maki, I worked too damn hard.:annoy:

[FreshOJ]

Yeah, people will always hate on JD for that. I can't really say I blame them either. There's a whole lot more risk involved in parrying.

You had my head bobbin' like an old-school hip-hop beat.....until......you said parrying has a lot more risk involved. Not quite true. There's only slightly more risk in parrying too early. Remember, if you parry too early, there's *no* miss animation, so that means you can immediately go into a block, go into another parry, go into a special move that begins with a parry motion, (insert numerous options that relate to being in a neutral state). Let's also remember that in SF3, there are very few moves that you can't parry with both the high and low parry. This is why option select parrying is so hated from back when the game first came out. :) (And yes, I was one of the parry haterz...with a 'z', baby! Ok...I'm done, for real.) :)

Of course, if you do it too late, well, just like with Just Defend, you get hit.

Again, the consequences for early execution are far less than they are for late execution. That's a gameplay no-no.


I don't know if this is treu for 3s, but in CvS2, if you tapped forward and returned the stick to neutral, you got more time to parry than if you tappef forward and kept it there.

I hope it's true, but parries without miss animation are still absolutely positively broken. Things would probably be somewhat different if you couldn't low parry attacks that hit mid. That would at least give attackers someway around the option select wall.

[FreshOJ]

I see your point but in practice (along with guard bars) it works well I think. Maybe if they tightened the timing it would be perfect.

The only way it would be perfect, IMHO, is if it were totally anticipatory. Even if the Just Defend frame window for inputting a Guard Cancel command were 1 frame wide, that's still enough time for some guy with insanely fast reflexes to react to the Just Defend notice on their screen and press a button. Hmm...what happens if you press a button the instant after an attack contacts you? If you Just Defended the attack, you'd get your Guard Cancel. If you did tap and held back too late and you blocked the attack and then pressed a button, you wouldn't do anything because you'd be in block stun...and you'd still be relatively safe.

Too many flaws. Too many ways to take advantage of it. I'm glad the guard meter keeps guard cancelling from being always accessible because that would *really* clamp down the offense on that game and make it a turtlefest.

[Saotome Kaneda]

jesus christ you guys are fucking idiots


don't ever pm me for assistance again if you post stupid shit like this, and don't shout my name out in a thread looking for backup


the posts are gone and if this shit comes back or is mentioned again then infractions will be widespread

[Atb_555]

Tbh this thread should be closed seeing as parries arent going to be in SF4

[Hawk]

I thought parrying had a chance to be in SF4 as only an 'optional' system?

[Atb_555]

Did it say that in the article?

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Why do people think that parring is so bad? I have been playing 3rd Strike for about four months and I see that it can be helpful if you can do it like it was second nature. Other from that, it hurts like heck when you think you do it but you eat a combo because you timed it wrong.

Sounds like another person who picked up 3s because of the Daigo vid.

[shin_ryu]

oh man pablo the mex you are cool...so what if he did pick it up because of that?i'm not saying i did but games get famous because of certain things that they have that are kind of innovative (for the series) and many games also get famous because of certain things that happened LIKE that daigo vs. wong video

[aegis neglector]

dude, just fair warning to both of you guys: if you scroll up a little ways, you'll notice that there are a shit-ton of comments that were deleted and neg. repped. I'd watch how heated you get on here from now on. if we aren't jerking each other off in peace and harmony, we get busted by "The Man".

[Saotome Kaneda]

Yeah, it's about time for this thread to close. But first....


uh...i didn't call for your help, bro. and where do you expect me take this talk? this is a fighting game forum.
1: I wasn't talking about you. If you were paying attention instead of turning this thread into 3S Matchmaking/Community Discussion, you would've noticed who I was talking to. He knows who he is too. 3S talk belongs in the 3S area, community beef, bullshit and discussion belongs in the regional discussion area.


no one was hurt, no one was killed. ultimately, isn't it just for fun? so what if we sound serious. the only difference between doing it here and doing it at a tournament is that it's face to face at a tourney. but these are people that we'll actually see. why do people care so much about trash-talk? again, big-name players can do it amongst each other, even post call-out vids. on YouTube, but when we do it, it's "garbage". man, it's not like i said i was going to physically hurt anybody -- IT'S A GAME!
Some people care about trash talk on the forums because it ends up derailing threads. You know, kinda like what happened here. Imagine that.

and another thing: why is it cool for people to come on here talking like, "Yeah, nigga-this, and nigga-that"? First off, I'm nobody's "nigga", and I take offense to the word in general, but I can't go around neg. repping everyone that drops an "N-Bomb", can I?
You just was talking about trashtalk, some people talk trash like that. And if you take offense, you can most certainly neg rep that person. You can neg rep for any reason really.
whatever, though. neg. rep me or whatever...this is silly. You guys expect us to take the games we play seriously, but then you're like, "Not too serious, though...". Dude, we have a WEBSITE DEDICATED TO TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING GAMES!!! The time for "not too serious" is kind of behind us, don't you think?
I know I didn't neg rep you, although I can't say the same for the legion of Prem users that look for stuff to neg(usually with good reason). Who is this we you keep speaking about? I think you derailed yourself there.
i'm not attacking you, bro. i just wanted to share my sincere opinion on the matter. On which matter?

and yeah, why is this thread still open? if people weren't able to come in here and bitch about something that's already been around for 10 years in the first place this wouldn't have happened.
There's nothing stopping someone from hitting the new thread button and making another thread. So are you trying to say we should keep people from posting without mod approval?

dude, just fair warning to both of you guys: if you scroll up a little ways, you'll notice that there are a shit-ton of comments that were deleted and neg. repped.
Why are so many posters so wrapped up over neg rep? Especially on posts that pretty much deserve it?

I'd watch how heated you get on here from now on. if we aren't jerking each other off in peace and harmony, we get busted by "The Man".
i'm not attacking you, bro. i just wanted to share my sincere opinion on the matter.
:confused: