Probable innovation: Deathblow system

[BigRick70]

Hmm, I'm doing my homework right now but I can't concentrate so I'll express some ideas that I had for a long time. Since people are looking for new stuff to add in Street Fighter 4... here is my idea, a ''Deathblow'' feature.

Don't worry guys, I'm NOT talking about a ''Finish Him'' game mechanic like it can be seen in Mortal Kombat or Killer Instinct.

What I'm implying is that you could make SF4 a game where you cannot KO your opponent with every move, your character will have to land one of his predetermined KO moves in order to win the round.

I know this could lead the game to disaster or balance issues, but with good implementation, it could change the dynamics of a fight, especially in late round.

For example, let's try to apply this to ST to see what the game could look like:

- Weaker normals like jabs, shorts won't be able to KO your opponent.
- Stronger normals like fierces/roundhouses and strong/forwards (depending of character) will be able to KO your opponent
- Specials should be able to KO your opponent, not all of them though
- Throws can also KO your opponent
- Combos can KO an opponent if it ends with a KO move

The things suggested above is an example of what could be done, but it has to be carefully planned since the selection of KO moves will probably make/break the game. To make this more intuitive to the non-regular SF4 player, it will be important to add some sort of cue (audio or visual) that will help him recognize his KO moves.

Now, what would happen to a character that has no more life, but that didn't get KOed? First of all, you could easily make some aesthetic changes to make this more dramatic, like a near-death fighting stance, flashing red life meter, BGM change.

Also, the player with an empty life bar could see these changes to his offensive abilities.

- No offensive penalties like slower movement speed/normals, being almost dead is already a disadvantage, we do not want to make a comeback impossible
- Addition of a Desperation Super Move: new powerful move that uses your full super meter... more damage oriented than regular supers. For example, Ryu could still have his Shinku Hadouken as his normal super and his Gou Shoryuken as his desperation super... adds some ''coolness'' to the game

Also, what we're looking for is to change the dynamics of the fight, not to give an advantage to either player... so we have to give some penalties to the character that has no more life, these will also make sure that the agressor does not have too much of a hard time finishing his opponent.

- Stun Penalty: the character with no life can get stunned much more easily
- Stagger: some attacks that do not have KO potential can stagger the opponent (could be something similar to the turnaround effect in SF3), thus giving a chance to the attacker to land his KO move
- Guard Break: Because the deathblow system will prevent you to chip an opponent to death, add a guardbreak feature where your guard can be broken by some normals/specials. The defender that has no life won't be able to defend himself eternally against chipping strats.

What we're looking to create in this system:

- Leave room for a comeback if the winning player messes up
- Change the dynamics of the end of a round... the character that lost all his life has a better offense thanks to the threat of his desperation move, but also has a worse defense (higher risk, higher rewards)
- add more depth in combo decision (since some combos will KO and others won't)
- whiners that complain about chip KOs will get some satisfaction (though they will still be severely disadvantaged, especially if we choose to put in guard breaking/staggering specials)

In conclusion, I think this idea has a lot of potential... but you gotta remember that the correct execution of an idea is the most important thing, so feel free to post comments.

[Hydra632]

So uh, how exactly would the mechanic work? Anytime one of those moves were landed the round would be over? Fist of the North Star tried something similar and it didn't turn out so well. SF4 isn't Bushido Blade and should not have any form of these ideas implemented in it.

[Wolfkiller]

The desperation move sounds fun. Like it autokills yourself, but takes out 50% life on the opponent? So at best, you get a double KO for that round if it connects.

[BigRick70]

So uh, how exactly would the mechanic work? Anytime one of those moves were landed the round would be over? Fist of the North Star tried something similar and it didn't turn out so well. SF4 isn't Bushido Blade and should not have any form of these ideas implemented in it.

Whoops I'm sorry that I wasn't clear enough...

Basically the game plays like normal SF, but some moves simply won't KO the opponent even when he's out of life.

So yea, in order to win the round you will have to deplete your opponent's life, then hit him with a KO move.

[r3ko]

You might aswell just remove lifer bars altogether then, and replace them with a meter, that you charge up by landing hits, just like a super meter. Just once fully charged allows you kill your opponent with a deathblow.

[EndLeSS8]

If you remove life meters as well (I see r3ko's theory behind what he says) it turns into Smash, where life doesn't make a difference, and your point is to knock the guy off (ie. Your deathblow)

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

Let's turn it into Super Smash Bros.

[Hisham]

With some tweaking, this idea can be one of the better ones that I have seen on this board.

[polarity]

this idea is dumb

good SF play involves working to get into an advantageous position and then riding it out for as long as possible. with this system, though, youll end up requiring a character to deviate from what otherwise is a solid gameplan, potentially placing themselves at risk for no other reason than it's necessary for them to get the KO. i dont see the point.

[SweetJohnnyV]

I can understand how this system could sound interesting on paper, but in practice I don't see it working all that well.

Like polarity says, the problem is that you have to change up your game plan. If you have someone dead-to-rights, you should be able to finish them off with chip damage from strings of moves, etc. Getting them all the way down to 1% life due to good zoning, etc, and then having to figure out a whole new way to get in on them and land a big finishing move would probably change the tempo too much.

I know that people love to hate on it, but I actually liked the "Exceed" moves in SvC. These might've originated from some other SNK game...I dunno. Anyway, the way these moves work is that when you get down to almost no life(20~25% health, i think) you have access to a super-duper move. You can only use it once per match(not per round), and if I recall correctly, it doesn't take any super meter. It really is a free extra powerful super move. I think this system worked well, because it did give you a chance at a comeback without ruining the way the rest of the game worked.

[SuicidalGrandpa]

But...but...jab kills are the best! Mash that A button!

[F.Y.C.N.]

.....................................no

[drobizh]

i've seen boxers being knocked out with jabs

[scentless]

The only thing intesting i read was about the "near death animation", making the charachter look tired, beated or something like that . This actually would look cool as an eye candy.

[bodler]

The only thing intesting i read was about the "near death animation", making the charachter look tired, beated or something like that . This actually would look cool as an eye candy.

yeaa

[Nokato]

I agree with Hydra632. Alot of these ideas have a similar sentiment to what HNK utilized, and as much I liked certain aspects of that game--it turned out to be unsuccessful overall. I'm all for something new with SF4, but the difficult task at hand is to find new things that ensure replay value, ingenuity, and all actual interest.

Unfortunately the ideas you've stated, would make an incredibly unbalanced game in my opinon.

[coco_j]

Kinda related, I was playing 3rd Strike last night and thought how strange it is for the characters to be fighting like their in good health but then get jabbed out and collapse. I would love to see some signs of exertion and tiredness in the characters looks as the lifebar goes down, not necessarily changed to the gameplay. But at least make Ryu look like that fireball hes throwing is just that extra bit hard.

I dunno, I need sleep.

[altergenesis]

You'd get this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8zx9qxCSvM

[shinblanka]

Hmm, I'm doing my homework right now but I can't concentrate so I'll express some ideas that I had for a long time. Since people are looking for new stuff to add in Street Fighter 4... here is my idea, a ''Deathblow'' feature.

Don't worry guys, I'm NOT talking about a ''Finish Him'' game mechanic like it can be seen in Mortal Kombat or Killer Instinct.

What I'm implying is that you could make SF4 a game where you cannot KO your opponent with every move, your character will have to land one of his predetermined KO moves in order to win the round.

I know this could lead the game to disaster or balance issues, but with good implementation, it could change the dynamics of a fight, especially in late round.

For example, let's try to apply this to ST to see what the game could look like:

- Weaker normals like jabs, shorts won't be able to KO your opponent.
- Stronger normals like fierces/roundhouses and strong/forwards (depending of character) will be able to KO your opponent
- Specials should be able to KO your opponent, not all of them though
- Throws can also KO your opponent
- Combos can KO an opponent if it ends with a KO move

The things suggested above is an example of what could be done, but it has to be carefully planned since the selection of KO moves will probably make/break the game. To make this more intuitive to the non-regular SF4 player, it will be important to add some sort of cue (audio or visual) that will help him recognize his KO moves.

Now, what would happen to a character that has no more life, but that didn't get KOed? First of all, you could easily make some aesthetic changes to make this more dramatic, like a near-death fighting stance, flashing red life meter, BGM change.

Also, the player with an empty life bar could see these changes to his offensive abilities.

- No offensive penalties like slower movement speed/normals, being almost dead is already a disadvantage, we do not want to make a comeback impossible
- Addition of a Desperation Super Move: new powerful move that uses your full super meter... more damage oriented than regular supers. For example, Ryu could still have his Shinku Hadouken as his normal super and his Gou Shoryuken as his desperation super... adds some ''coolness'' to the game

Also, what we're looking for is to change the dynamics of the fight, not to give an advantage to either player... so we have to give some penalties to the character that has no more life, these will also make sure that the agressor does not have too much of a hard time finishing his opponent.

- Stun Penalty: the character with no life can get stunned much more easily
- Stagger: some attacks that do not have KO potential can stagger the opponent (could be something similar to the turnaround effect in SF3), thus giving a chance to the attacker to land his KO move
- Guard Break: Because the deathblow system will prevent you to chip an opponent to death, add a guardbreak feature where your guard can be broken by some normals/specials. The defender that has no life won't be able to defend himself eternally against chipping strats.

What we're looking to create in this system:

- Leave room for a comeback if the winning player messes up
- Change the dynamics of the end of a round... the character that lost all his life has a better offense thanks to the threat of his desperation move, but also has a worse defense (higher risk, higher rewards)
- add more depth in combo decision (since some combos will KO and others won't)
- whiners that complain about chip KOs will get some satisfaction (though they will still be severely disadvantaged, especially if we choose to put in guard breaking/staggering specials)

In conclusion, I think this idea has a lot of potential... but you gotta remember that the correct execution of an idea is the most important thing, so feel free to post comments.

I like what you posted, but sf2 ST had that type of system. It's called "A SUPER". That's before supers were just combo finishers like they are now for the most part. You have good points, but I can't get combo fatalities like KI or the 1st G.Gear out of my head when I read it sir. I don't want that in sf4.

[nothing]

Why do you want to make matches close even if one guy is beating the crap out of the other..?

I don't want to be stomping somebody down and then get smacked with some gimmicky deathblow and lose the round.

With deathblows most of a match becomes pointless.. because players will eventually just look for setups and openings to do their deathblow and win. A comeback win should be legit and based on the players skill, not being able to mash out some lucky uber death jab or something.

I do like the idea of characters looking fatigued as their life bar depletes as long as it's purely graphical and doesn't affect gameplay. If a guy's getting his ass kicked, the last thing he needs is a handicap (that's why I was never too found of characters getting dizzied) that slows his character down and/or makes his moves come out slower or whatever.. just like a guy beating the crap out of someone shouldn't have to turtle for fear of getting hit with some kind of one-hit kill. One-hit kills have been tried before in fighters and I think players have never been overly thrilled about them. I don't that feeling is gonna change any time soon.

Personally, I'd like to see Capcom pick a gameplay system (be it an Alpha, SF3, etc.. it doesn't matter which to me) and just do minor tweaks, nothing really huge and focus more on making sure that the game is fairly balanced. If they want to start adding stuff, they can do it incrimentally later through different updates of SF4.. you guys KNOW that there'll be more than one SF4.. it's Cashcom's way.

[BigRick70]

this idea is dumb

good SF play involves working to get into an advantageous position and then riding it out for as long as possible. with this system, though, youll end up requiring a character to deviate from what otherwise is a solid gameplan, potentially placing themselves at risk for no other reason than it's necessary for them to get the KO. i dont see the point.

I stated in my post that I do not want this to happen. This is where the defensive penalties come into play... For example, against a character that has no more life, a blocked Hadouken from Ryu could cause guard break and stagger, while a landed one would count as a Deathblow... But it could also be interesting to add variety to the game, like SF4's Sean (example only) not being able to do the same with his own crappy fireball lol.

I like what you posted, but sf2 ST had that type of system. It's called "A SUPER". That's before supers were just combo finishers like they are now for the most part. You have good points, but I can't get combo fatalities like KI or the 1st G.Gear out of my head when I read it sir. I don't want that in sf4.

Hmm, I think my point was not made clear enough.

First of all, I based my example on SF2 ST, so every character already have a super move ready for use when their meter is full. I really like how the ST supers are less damage oriented than in newer SF games.

And desperation supers are only there to add a twist to the game... they also require a full super meter and they look more like modern, ''max'' style SF supers (more damage oriented, used as combo enders).

So it could look like this... bringing back my Ryu example:

- Super move : Shinku Hadouken
- Desperation super: Gou Shoryuken

But SveetJohnnyV brought a point, Desperation Supers could be implemented more like these ''Exceed'' moves (no meter req, but one use per match), even though I don't really like the no meter requirement.

Why do you want to make matches close even if one guy is beating the crap out of the other..?

I don't want to be stomping somebody down and then get smacked with some gimmicky deathblow and lose the round.

With deathblows most of a match becomes pointless.. because players will eventually just look for setups and openings to do their deathblow and win. A comeback win should be legit and based on the players skill, not being able to mash out some lucky uber death jab or something.


Hmm Desperation supers are not meant to be OHKOs, I personally think that this kind of mechanic is stupid.

The character that has no more life is still very vulnerable... and he will have to mount an effective offense in order to land his Desperation move (he can't do it if he doesn't have meter) which is a good, but not godlike attack.

So yea, comebacks are going to happen, however they will only if the player that has the lead messes up big time.

[shinblanka]

I feel you, but supers did atleast 50% in ST for most of the characters. In sf3 they give you the choice between 3 supers. You can use a weak.damage \effective combo type super like hugos hammer mountain or the 40% death super like the GIGIS BREAKER! You want EX-supers right?!? I wish hugo had an atomic gigaton ultraton matrix grab super of dooooom!!!! But that would be broken like a motherfulber!

[Hol Horse]

I don't know if this could work - there are many ways in which it could degenerate. I'd say, it could be worthy of an experiment. Just don't make such an hazardous experiment on a main sf game which we were waiting for years - test this before on a minor title.

But, in a little extenct, they could take something from the Jojo games: there is chip damage, but you can't die by chip damage. While it can happen that a single jab can take out a worn out opponent in a real fight (actually not that uncommon in boxing) and so it's still somewhat beleviable, being able to defend and STILL getting knocked out doesn't look good. That's a thing I liked about the JoJo games; and you still give some other handicap to the defending player - like, blocking a special move when he's at 0 life makes blockstun last way longer (stiff arms) or if there is a guard crush system, it does double the crush damage (worn out arms) but it still isn't over. That takes care of one of the issues that parry supporters point their fingers at (parry gets rid of unavoidable chip deaths, that can be ugly sometimes), without bringing in all the other issues of randomness that a parry system holds.

[shinblanka]

I don't know if this could work - there are many ways in which it could degenerate. I'd say, it could be worthy of an experiment. Just don't make such an hazardous experiment on a main sf game which we were waiting for years - test this before on a minor title.

But, in a little extenct, they could take something from the Jojo games: there is chip damage, but you can't die by chip damage. While it can happen that a single jab can take out a worn out opponent in a real fight (actually not that uncommon in boxing) and so it's still somewhat beleviable, being able to defend and STILL getting knocked out doesn't look good. That's a thing I liked about the JoJo games; and you still give some other handicap to the defending player - like, blocking a special move when he's at 0 life makes blockstun last way longer (stiff arms) or if there is a guard crush system, it does double the crush damage (worn out arms) but it still isn't over. That takes care of one of the issues that parry supporters point their fingers at (parry gets rid of unavoidable chip deaths, that can be ugly sometimes), without bringing in all the other issues of randomness that a parry system holds.

Please don't say the P word in this thread. Flamewars will ignite before you know it sir.

[polarity]

i wish people would stop trying to argue for stuff to be included/not included in games based on how much realistic sense it makes. the rules of the game don't have to make realistic sense as long as they're easily understandable. this isn't a simulation.

[debs]

not feeling this idea at all. it'll make certain characters better (than they already are) than others by far...
grapplers, for example, would be screwed without vaseline/ky. anybody without a projectile would probably be screwed. the game would boil down to the fastest character with a projectile. na, i'm good.

[Corner-Trap]

........but the only way I ever win is with repeated crouching shorts......

[Pablo_the_Mex]

Nope.

[ashmoboy]

They could make it so the jabs stagger rather than knocking out, allowing you to land the heavier hit. Technically landing the jab still wins, it just doesn't look so stupid.

[bodler]

we should stop talking about this whole thing before the SF4 developers passes trought this tread and does something we and they might regret....

[BigRick70]

not feeling this idea at all. it'll make certain characters better (than they already are) than others by far...
grapplers, for example, would be screwed without vaseline/ky. anybody without a projectile would probably be screwed. the game would boil down to the fastest character with a projectile. na, i'm good.

How can grapplers/characters without fireballs get screwed by this? Command throws would probably be able to KO an opponent, and non-fb characters could still have their set of anti-fireball tactics...

we should stop talking about this whole thing before the SF4 developers passes trought this tread and does something we and they might regret....

Lol, I find this post to be very funny even though it targets me.

To polarity: Just trying to bring new ideas to the table here, this is how you get better games. I am not actively asking Capcom to put it in SF4, I'm just trying to promote the incorporation of new ideas...

People didn't really seem to like the idea of restricted KO options, however every1 seem to like the aesthetic changes that you could give to a character with low health.

[nothingxs]

Two things.

First: Hol Horse is a 20th Century Boy and a good "Friend." :looney:

Second: I like the idea that certain moves would be unable to outright KO you, but I don't know about having it for SF4. I do like the idea of showing characters to be more tired / damaged as the fight progresses, though.

[tataki]

chip damage can't kill in arcana heart. but it won't fit well SF gameplay imo.

[The Lone Dragon]

Hmm, I'm doing my homework right now but I can't concentrate so I'll express some ideas that I had for a long time. Since people are looking for new stuff to add in Street Fighter 4... here is my idea, a ''Deathblow'' feature.

Don't worry guys, I'm NOT talking about a ''Finish Him'' game mechanic like it can be seen in Mortal Kombat or Killer Instinct.

What I'm implying is that you could make SF4 a game where you cannot KO your opponent with every move, your character will have to land one of his predetermined KO moves in order to win the round.


I think it's an interesting idea, at the very least.

Obviously, the first reaction of the public is negative. People don't like change.
In general, I've noticed that people are opposed to ideas that add MORE decision making to the mix. "More of the same" seems to be popular...

Your idea sort of reminds me of wrestling games where you wear down your opponent, to the point of pin-fall. The dynamic of the fight will totally change once you get to the KO point. It promotes end-game strategy...forcing the offense to ask whether they can put their opponent away.

It also puts a premium on defense. Nowaday's the emphasis in fighting games is very offense driven (heck, GG punishes you for NOT rushing-down your opponent). For once it would be nice to have a game that emphasizes defense as well.

not feeling this idea at all. it'll make certain characters better (than they already are) than others by far...
grapplers, for example, would be screwed without vaseline/ky. anybody without a projectile would probably be screwed. the game would boil down to the fastest character with a projectile. na, i'm good.

Ha...because grapplers are SO well taken care of already, right?

I mean, ANY system is going to favor some characters over others. That's not a fault that's exclusive to THIS proposal.

Plus, this system could easily be adjusted to accommodate grapplers. Since they're usually larger, stronger characters maybe their jabs and light attacks CAN knock-out. Or maybe grapplers have KO resistance to certain moves that lighter, faster characters do not have.


To everyone: instead of just shooting down ideas, why not TRY to propose ways of improving the system. It's much more productive...

[pherai]

No thanks.

[Kampfer]

the wrestling game comparison is the first thing that came to mind when I read the topic...

It's not a bad idea, I think... certainly sounds reasonable, and would offer a significant change in gameplay...


- Weaker normals like jabs, shorts won't be able to KO your opponent.
- Stronger normals like fierces/roundhouses and strong/forwards (depending of character) will be able to KO your opponent
- Specials should be able to KO your opponent, not all of them though
- Throws can also KO your opponent
- Combos can KO an opponent if it ends with a KO move

this can all be summed up by a single rule: any move that does more than 1200+ damage (I'm using CvS2 numbers here) can KO

In fact, I think you can take it a bit further... normals can not KO... instead, include a KO move, similar to KOF's KD moves(FP+FK, can be done on ground or air)... Fierce attacks are certainly strong enough to KO someone, but this would prevent KO's by air-to-air kicks, or sweeps... close hits or jump-ins would connect to a special anyway...

or, that might be going too far...


- No offensive penalties like slower movement speed/normals, being almost dead is already a disadvantage, we do not want to make a comeback impossible
- Addition of a Desperation Super Move: new powerful move that uses your full super meter... more damage oriented than regular supers. For example, Ryu could still have his Shinku Hadouken as his normal super and his Gou Shoryuken as his desperation super... adds some ''coolness'' to the game

this is a definite "NO"... you are forcing the winning player to change his strategy and come at the dying player to put the game away... this is already big enough handicap... a good player will be able to play well enough defensively to chip away the attackers life to even the grounds... if you add a Super Desperation Move on top of that, then you tip the scales too much in favor of the losing player... You can not have a game where one player dominates for 97% the game, then suddenly loses to 70% damage super combo... recipe for disaster if you ask me, it wont be long before people start calling it a bullshit game... really, no amount penalties given to the dying player can make up for this advantage...

the reason SDM's work in KOF is because there ISN'T any of this KO move limitation imposed on the winning player... that works as a handicap on it's own, it isn't meant to be paired with something else...



- Stun Penalty: the character with no life can get stunned much more easily
- Stagger: some attacks that do not have KO potential can stagger the opponent (could be something similar to the turnaround effect in SF3), thus giving a chance to the attacker to land his KO move
- Guard Break: Because the deathblow system will prevent you to chip an opponent to death, add a guardbreak feature where your guard can be broken by some normals/specials. The defender that has no life won't be able to defend himself eternally against chipping strats.


interesting ideas... but I think you can keep it simple... like guard meter gets cut in half... and increasing down time/decreasing wake-up speed...

you could also decrease round times, to give the winning player an option of going for the kill or waiting it out...



the more I think about, the more I think it can be implemented, and be interesting ... of course, my logic is working under the assumption that SF4 will be simplified back to SSF2T... don't know how well it would work with a game with as much options as CvS2...

I do like the idea forcing players up close for a frantic finish... no more zoning sagat's sitting back all day...


the idea isn't without flaws though...

dumb ass nubs won't be able to win, even against the CPU... possibly killing off their interest permanently... some may say who cares about the nubs, but in order for SF4 to be successful, it will need mass appeal like in the old days... best way to do that is to simplify and innovate(like the Wii), and this idea may not be so simple...

the other issue is that it will homogenize gameplay(though only at the end of the match), as most characters will need to get in close to land a special, super, throw or a combo... people complained about parries because it made everyone fight the same, so this may be a problem as well...

character balance issue would be interesting as well... think about it... would fireballers be nerfed because their zoning skills go out the window when they go for the kill? or would they dominate because you can keep away your opponent and chip their life down when you are in near death mode?

[pherai]

dumb ass nubs won't be able to win, even against the CPU... possibly killing off their interest permanently... some may say who cares about the nubs, but in order for SF4 to be successful, it will need mass appeal like in the old days... best way to do that is to simplify and innovate(like the Wii), and this idea may not be so simple...

QFT. I meant to respond more, but I didn't have time.

Imo, new game mechanics should attempt to solve problems from previous games (techs nerf throws, parry nerfs fireball zoning), or add something fun to learn. This comes off as more of a chore than anything, and only seems to solve the problem of chip damage (which isn't a huge problem imo). It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it serves much of a purpose. It's a game mechanic for the sake of having a game mechanic, and steepens the learning curve, which is one of the last things fighting games need.

[Mariodood]

IMO this idea is kinda stupid, but I've always thought it was kinda lame in SF how your character can seem fine, but if you have low life, even someone lightly grazing you with the tip of their feet (crouching short) can kill you.

[Radiantsilvergun3]

GG doesnt penalize you for not rushing down. It penalizes you for not doing anything offensive for a large period of time. You could throw out a jab and reset the timer simple enough you don't have to mad rush down to keep meter in GG.

[ObsidianZ]

Only one issue I see with having a different look when you're damaged: hit boxes change as well.

Pour example, a character that is healthy and standing up straight/has a proper stance will have a different hitbox than someone who's near death and is slouching.

I dunno, maybe it's not that big an issue.

If they just added blood or scrapes and bruises on the body but left the character model the same, that would solve the problem.

But overrall, I don't like the idea of showing damage. Too messy, too dirty; I want my characters looking good all the time :rofl:.

*ObZ

[KayinNasaki]

Yeah, this idea is pretty bad (No offtense. When theorizing one will come across mostly bad ideas) that wouldn't really add anything interesting. As for Mariodood's point, yeah, it's a bit silly.. but if it's 3d, maybe they'll change animations and textured to look more beat up as the fight goes on. But that doesn't effect gameplay so whatever.

I mean.. honestly. Whats the problem with chip damage? It exists so blocking isn't just 'for free' and to encourage you to get off your ass. If you die from chip damage it's your fault for getting in that position. You can still come back with a pixel, you just have to be aggressive.

Also, yeah. you gotta be playing like a fucking coward to get a negative penalty in Guilty Gear. To say a game should emphesis defense.. welll. Guilty Gear DOES. It has a bazillion defensive options and with the type of pressure in the game, knowing your defense is probably one of the most important parts of your game. You spend a lot of time blocking in Guilty Gear.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but emphesising defense in another way (making a game for turtlers for example) would lead to a pretty stupid ass game. You'd be rewarding people for not taking action. If a game does that, then why attack? Why take action to recieve a lesser position? Turtle friendly RTSs generally fail cause they're ultra boring, and they're MORE suited for it because at least you can tech up while defending if the opponent takes no action. If both opponents take no action in a turtle friendly fighter, nothing changes.

To sum up, Guilty Gear is about as good as you can get when it comes to a game that emphesis defense currently.

[Henaki]

the soul calibur games are pretty defensive and high level play is boring as sin for them

[ObsidianZ]

IMO this idea is kinda stupid, but I've always thought it was kinda lame in SF how your character can seem fine, but if you have low life, even someone lightly grazing you with the tip of their feet (crouching short) can kill you.

Games =! real life

Here's a hint: Games that mimic life perfectly are boring.

Fuck this obsession with hyper-realism in games these days...

*ObZ

[The Lone Dragon]

Games =! real life

Here's a hint: Games that mimic life perfectly are boring.

Fuck this obsession with hyper-realism in games these days...

*ObZ

Tell that to Madden players.

Look, we all LIVE in real life. It makes sense to us.

Even in crazy fantasy games like Sonic the Hedgehog, you see effects of real life physics and dynamics. Why? Because, it makes sense to us.

Even in games where people throw fireballs and jump 20 feet in the air, we still like the fundamental environment to be grounded in reality. Otherwise, we couldn't relate to anything in the game. The personalities, the motivations, the fighting styles, the physics...all initially grounded in reality.

Taking hints from reality is not an "obsession". It's smart. It gives us a universal FOUNDATION to work from.

[polarity]

Tell that to Madden players.

Look, we all LIVE in real life. It makes sense to us.

Even in crazy fantasy games like Sonic the Hedgehog, you see effects of real life physics and dynamics. Why? Because, it makes sense to us.

Even in games where people throw fireballs and jump 20 feet in the air, we still like the fundamental environment to be grounded in reality. Otherwise, we couldn't relate to anything in the game. The personalities, the motivations, the fighting styles, the physics...all initially grounded in reality.

Taking hints from reality is not an "obsession". It's smart. It gives us a universal FOUNDATION to work from.

its like you completely ignored the point of his post

[BigRick70]

QFT. I meant to respond more, but I didn't have time.

Imo, new game mechanics should attempt to solve problems from previous games (techs nerf throws, parry nerfs fireball zoning), or add something fun to learn. This comes off as more of a chore than anything, and only seems to solve the problem of chip damage (which isn't a huge problem imo). It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it serves much of a purpose. It's a game mechanic for the sake of having a game mechanic, and steepens the learning curve, which is one of the last things fighting games need.

This idea was not made to solve the "problem" of chip KOs (I have nothing at all against chip KOs). It's just that chip KOs can't exist with that kind of system in place.

The reason why I thought about this is because I wanted to add something fun to learn in the game, create some change. I don't really think that it will steepen the learning curve if it's implemented intuitively. It won't be hard for a noob to understand that if he has no life, his character won't block as well, won't take light hits as well, and will probably die if he takes another good hit.

the reason SDM's work in KOF is because there ISN'T any of this KO move limitation imposed on the winning player... that works as a handicap on it's own, it isn't meant to be paired with something else...

You're right, but I do not want the desperation moves to deal like 70% in one shot... that would almost be the equivalent of a OHKO, which is a definite no. The ideal thing IMO would be to scale down the damage on regular supers, so that they get used more for their properties (invincibility frames, easy chip, etc.) than for the damage... Then have SDMs do 20-30% damage max.

For variety's sake, Gouki could use his Raging Demon as his desperation move, which would end up being the only OHKO in the game.

interesting ideas... but I think you can keep it simple... like guard meter gets cut in half... and increasing down time/decreasing wake-up speed...

you could also decrease round times, to give the winning player an option of going for the kill or waiting it out...

I really like the idea of a faster countdown when a character reaches zero life...it would put pressure on the losing character to make a move.

the idea isn't without flaws though...

dumb ass nubs won't be able to win, even against the CPU... possibly killing off their interest permanently... some may say who cares about the nubs, but in order for SF4 to be successful, it will need mass appeal like in the old days... best way to do that is to simplify and innovate(like the Wii), and this idea may not be so simple...

the other issue is that it will homogenize gameplay(though only at the end of the match), as most characters will need to get in close to land a special, super, throw or a combo... people complained about parries because it made everyone fight the same, so this may be a problem as well...

character balance issue would be interesting as well... think about it... would fireballers be nerfed because their zoning skills go out the window when they go for the kill? or would they dominate because you can keep away your opponent and chip their life down when you are in near death mode?

Like I said earlier you could use these features to increase variety between characters... you could have fireballers like Ryu than can KO you directly with his hadoukens. Other characters that have fireballs that doesn't KO should definetely see their fireballs cause stagger, deal much more stun damage and break guards... That way their fireballs can still remain the backbone of their gameplan.

I agree though that a fireballer with zero life fighting a close range type of character can survive much more longer if they manage to reimplement their zoning game down. That's why the close range guys should also have more options to KO their opponent.

[Manx]

This will be great only if they make that vest that makes you feel the punches. That way it will kill all the people who play such a stupid game. :tup:

[(ÊlitÊ)]

I like the fact that I can KO my opponent anny way I like. No need for deathblows for me. Basicly it's a good idea but I don't think it belongs in SF.

[Ki Shima]

to be honest to make things easier on the fans minds this probably would work

i personally would prefer it if the game looks atleast three times smoother than vf5 ver C, thats all that matters really, make that happen and i dont give a fuck about the mechnics, as long as I look beautiful playing, thats all that counts :wgrin:

btw note that his av has a boxer in it, the old street fighter reminded of boxing a bit so this would be a throwback, and it kind of beats two birds with one stone, we'd have the whole game mainly based on technique and a little mind game, then the end hit total mind game. there wasnt really any technicality to fight night just mind games.

thats what makes him feel like this is a great game style if im not mistaken? :confused:

i personally like how it is already, in a way his game style would restrict you to simplifying whats already there, so yeah its more fun, but for how long?? :confused:

[Hell Murder]

Reminds me of Hyper Dimension. I like your idea though.

[hellhound]

I recall reading that when capcom was making capcom fighting all-star that there would be a finishing move. It was not stated if it would be fatalities.

[Redmyst]

I like the ideas that are coming out. While it is true people do not like a change in something that is already works, why not have it set to where you can play classic or the newer way. IMO, I would enjoy having to knock out my enemy with a strong hit, not really a shoryuken or a hadoken, but it a fierce punch or kick. I know I would get knock out by a flying kick or an axe kick if I was on my last legs

[Kataklysmic]

How about no? It's too scrubby.

[Hellion]

How about no? It's too scrubby.

I must break you

[Redmyst]

How about no? It's too scrubby.

Too scrubby????? So I take it that you never watched some of the videos that have been around the web, not all of them was finished by a special or a throw. Some, if not most have been won by a medium to a fierce attacks.

[PersonaDark]

The idea sounds interesting, similar to how fatalities worked in SS5 and SS5 special. Or how each character had a specific knockout method for their style in DJFFNY, but had other options as well.

However, how will you keep it from being predictiable BigRick? Multiple types of DBs so that when an opponent is close to dying, he won't just turtle his ass off waiting for the opponent to attack long enough to make a comeback? Some unblockable, grab, etc?

[BigRick70]

However, how will you keep it from being predictiable BigRick? Multiple types of DBs so that when an opponent is close to dying, he won't just turtle his ass off waiting for the opponent to attack long enough to make a comeback? Some unblockable, grab, etc?

Sure... you can't put only one option or else the attacker is extremely disadvantaged when he wants to get the kill.

Specific normals, throws, specials was what I had in mind... for example Ryu wouldn't be able to kill with low jab but he would be able to with hadoukens.

Anyways, I don't like this idea too much now... IMO it wouldn't affect too much advanced play but like polarity said it complicates stuff for the newbies. Mainly cause it's not very intuitive and cause the system punishes offensive incompetence kinda harshly.

[FreshOJ]

Sure... you can't put only one option or else the attacker is extremely disadvantaged when he wants to get the kill.

Specific normals, throws, specials was what I had in mind... for example Ryu wouldn't be able to kill with low jab but he would be able to with hadoukens.

I don't like it. It sounds like most of your character's most effective moves would be made useless at that point. That's not good at all. Crumple stun to K.O. was, in my opinion, one of the best additions to SF3. That kind of stuff does happen. If you break enough blood vessels anywhere in the body, you can cause someone to pass out. (I seem to remember reading that on alt.games.sf2 back when SF3 first came out. It's too bad the first game that had that kind of knockout in it was Art Of Fighting 1.)

[BigRick70]

I don't like it. It sounds like most of your character's most effective moves would be made useless at that point. That's not good at all. Crumple stun to K.O. was, in my opinion, one of the best additions to SF3. That kind of stuff does happen. If you break enough blood vessels anywhere in the body, you can cause someone to pass out. (I seem to remember reading that on alt.games.sf2 back when SF3 first came out. It's too bad the first game that had that kind of knockout in it was Art Of Fighting 1.)

Actually, the point was to force my character to use his most effective moves in order to get a KO.

Example: late game fireball trap situation

In a standard system, the attacker can chip his opponent to death with a projectile trap... therefore the defender is forced to act in order to avoid dying.

In the proposed system, the attacker can chip his opponent to drain his entire lifebar. When the defender has no life, he can't die from chip damage, however the fireball trap doesn't get weaker because a blocked fireball can easily set up for a KO move. Therefore, the defender is still forced to act in order to avoid dying.

So yea, the main reason why I don't really like it is because it only adds layers of mechanics to do the same thing.

Oh and you say it was done already? I never got to play the AoF series...

[Kataklysmic]

Too scrubby????? So I take it that you never watched some of the videos that have been around the web, not all of them was finished by a special or a throw. Some, if not most have been won by a medium to a fierce attacks.

That doesn't make it any less stupid.
You can beat me to a pulp, but if I pull out a gun and shoot you, does that make me a better fighter? I don't think so.

[BigRick70]

That doesn't make it any less stupid.
You can beat me to a pulp, but if I pull out a gun and shoot you, does that make me a better fighter? I don't think so.

Chill out buddy, I know you don't want to type too much, but you're oversimplifying...

anyways, let this thread die

[xlidokrazeex]

this is dumb.. but i guess this was an opinion thread..

the whole deathblow idea is dumb..it just wont be SF anymore
and the EX editions of SF was stupid too..lets keep SF 2D ^^

[FreshOJ]

Actually, the point was to force my character to use his most effective moves in order to get a KO.

Example: late game fireball trap situation

In a standard system, the attacker can chip his opponent to death with a projectile trap... therefore the defender is forced to act in order to avoid dying.

In the proposed system, the attacker can chip his opponent to drain his entire lifebar. When the defender has no life, he can't die from chip damage, however the fireball trap doesn't get weaker because a blocked fireball can easily set up for a KO move. Therefore, the defender is still forced to act in order to avoid dying.

So yea, the main reason why I don't really like it is because it only adds layers of mechanics to do the same thing.

Oh and you say it was done already? I never got to play the AoF series...

I was saying that crumple KOs were done in Art of Fighting 1 (and possibly 2 and 3, but those games were so horrible that I didn't play them enough to find out). Your idea hasn't been done yet...and, IMHO, with good reason. It just wouldn't work well. If a special move touches you, you should suffer damage and if your vital is at zero, that means you should crumple into unconsciousness. If I combo someone down to zero vital, they should not be able to turtle their way to a comeback just because they won't let me actually hit them. If you really want to make it easier for the defender, give them a special move or super that has invincibility frames that can be done as a reversal....wait...that's been done already! :) That already keeps the attacker honest.