Anti-Infinite Physics

[FreshOJ]

(The following was also posted on the Capcom-Unity SF4 page. I think this is good enough to apply to any game, personally. What do you think? No...wait...you might want to read this first and then tell me what you think.) :)

Hi all. Here's the post "you've been waiting for" (ok, not really, but hey, a guy can dream, right?) regarding the solution to infinites. One gameplay feature that would certainly help SF4 to be a balanced game with enjoyable gameplay would be the implementation of physics that make infinites impossible.

It's a known fact that SF2 had and dealt with Touch of Death combos (combos that at least 50% damage and dizzy) because, as much fun as they are to land on someone because they're not easy to land, they weren't supposed to be in the game. The simple fix on that was to increase the dizzy meter and reduce the damage on hits.

SF2 was then found to have re-dizzy combos, mostly thanks to M.Bison (Dictator) and his Scissor Kick, which was both comboable off of a weak attack *and* recovered fast enough to allow additional hits....but let's not forget SF2:WW Guile's 8-hit close standing jab to far standing jab redizzy, either. The fix: Guile's far standing jab animation was removed in CE and in SSF2, the second hit of the Scissor Kick was made a knockdown.

After that, we then started to see a hint of the scourge we now have known as the infinite combo: Guile's many Sonic Boom followups. The basic fix on that was to give the Sonic Boom enough recovery time that, except with the early (or "meaty") Sonic Boom, any followup that could be tacked on to that combo was one that was uninterruptible. Because the Sonic Boom is a charge move, that automatically made it harder for it to start an infinite.

However, now that we've seen engines that have allowed limitless juggling, we have seen infinites galore. I love combos, but I hate infinites with a passion! So, I do have a solution, that I've mentioned in previous posts, that would get rid of this problem once and for all. I call it....Anti-Infinite Physics.

Look...most infinite juggles are a sequence of moves done over and over again, right? Why? Because there is one move in that sequence that resets the juggle! So, the fix would be to make it so that the one move mentioned above wouldn't reset the juggle.......or make it harder to do so each time.

What am I trying to say? In SF3, opponents definitely didn't fly away faster and all launchers popped the opponent back up at the same speed and direction (or velocity) every time they hit. (See Ibuki's close roundhouse infinite or Dudley's crouch roundhouse -> Ducking Upper (2 hits), jab Machine Gun Blow (last hit only) until K.O. juggle). Look at SFA3. In that game, under normal circumstances, hits on airborne opponents caused them to fly away from the attacker faster and pop up less with each successful hit. Granted, there were some moves that "reset" that horizontal and downward acceleration, but I'm sure those were unintentional. THAT is what SF4 will need if it has juggle combos...and especially if it will have the standard "ends of the screen" that every other game has had...or even if you do a Tekken 4 or 5 and put walls in that damage and cause hit stun (if you do that, ground-based infinites will be extremely hard to deal and get rid of without making just about every move have extremely long recovery time).

Make every successful juggle hit accelerate the opponent faster and faster horizontally and downward. For example, let's look at SF3:ANG Ken's jab Shoryuken infinite juggle. If you hit the opponent with near or at the highest point of that move and they're in the corner, you can juggle them infinitely. (I remember Dudley having something similar...and Ryu probably did, too.) Now, with this system in place, with each successive Shoryuken, the opponent would be launched upward less and less until they would fall faster than Ken and hit the ground before he could connect another move. Also, in order to capture the essence of what's happening with each hit, each successive hit would do less damage (hello damage scaling!).

(By the way, I would think that if Ken has close to zero upward velocity at the top of the Shoryuken, it should be doing much less damage than it would near the ground. That's just me. From there, the fact that the Shoryuken does more damage the closer it is to the ground, the downward acceleration, and the damage scaling should produce a juggle that rewards the attacker fairly. I mean...hey...you caught the guy at the very top of his jump...in the corner. That'll learn the opponent not to make such a predictable move.)

To avoid any funny glitches, Capcom might want to make this condition reset under NO circumstances....not even for supers. If they can GUARANTEE that the acceleration factor will only be affected by a super HITTING, THEN AND ONLY THEN should they have supers THAT CONNECT ON THE OPPONENT reset the acceleration factor. (I could see why that would need to happen with, say, a point-blank range Shin Shoryuken or a Shinryuken.) Of course, if Capcom allows that to happen, then the characters that can follow up their supers with juggles will rule the game and those that can't, unless they have some really powerful stuff, will be relegated to the lower tiers. It's up to Capcom to balance the game, so that's their call. But if I were them...I'd opt for balance however possible.

If Capcom was able to come up with damage scaling, then this should be a piece of cake. As long as you can't whiff a super to reset the horizontal and downward acceleration factor on each hit....and as long as no characters are introduced that break any of the rules talked about in the beginning of this post...and as long as there are no extended stun or hold moves that have short enough startup time to be comboed into (Alex's Flash Chop is a great example of a perfectly balanced move that stuns)...this game will be absolutely FREE of infinites! (You may cheer and be happy........now!)

Anything I missed? Please quote and reply.

[aiy1tm]

There aren't any infinites in 3s.

Oh shit, I see now you were talking about the broken earlier iterations.

Carry on.

[Sephiroth73003]

Damage proration is a must and is implemented in all fighting games I've played for the last few years. I can't think of a single one that doesn't have it.

[shoultzula]

I consider certain 2 hit kills semi infinites too. Take tekken 5 DR jin, any electric on hit is 50% plus but the combo leads into a KD and from that KD, he had several options to use any of which could kill you again. So in one hit, he put you in a death situation.

honestly speaking, if they're going to go a new direction with the game, chances are that it will be fucked up. The best we can hope for is that when the game is released on a next gen console, maybe allow updated patches that slowly tweak the game to a standard that becomes acceptable, which will stray from arcade perfect port that many people usually expect but will try to make the game less broken. I'm willing to bet that on their first try, its not gonna be perfect as nothing capcom puts out is.

[FreshOJ]

There aren't any infinites in 3s.

Oh shit, I see now you were talking about the broken earlier iterations.

Carry on.

Thanks for seeing that. :)

Now, pardon my ignorance, but how were the infinites that were in SF3:ANG or SF3:SI dealt with in Third Strike? I obviously haven't done enough experimentation on the version I have at home to know........but am I right in guessing that there's an option in the System Direction that controls how many hits you can juggle with before any more moves whiff?

I'm trying to propose a system that doesn't have any arbitrary limits and doesn't deal with stuff by having attacks whiff. That, to me, is a cop out, and there's too much knowhow and technology out there for there not to be a gameplay engine that doesn't resort to arbitrary rules to fix its problems.

Of course....there's a reason why I'm not a game designer right now....I just don't have the patience for programming code. Programmers get much respect and props from me.

[KayinNasaki]

Heh, thats just what Guilty Gear does. That and good combo damage scaling that keeps infinites from ever people damage effecient even if they do exist(I can think of one that exists currently, but it's usually only done for a few reps -> super)..... and even then, you'll get to burst at some point.

For some reason I'm not too worried about this. Infinites don't necessarily make a game broken and broken games don't necessarily have infinites.

[FreshOJ]

I consider certain 2 hit kills semi infinites too. Take tekken 5 DR jin, any electric on hit is 50% plus but the combo leads into a KD and from that KD, he had several options to use any of which could kill you again. So in one hit, he put you in a death situation.

honestly speaking, if they're going to go a new direction with the game, chances are that it will be fucked up. The best we can hope for is that when the game is released on a next gen console, maybe allow updated patches that slowly tweak the game to a standard that becomes acceptable, which will stray from arcade perfect port that many people usually expect but will try to make the game less broken. I'm willing to bet that on their first try, its not gonna be perfect as nothing capcom puts out is.

And your post had something to do with the system that I suggested...how? I didn't see the relevance.

So far, in the Street Fighter series, no 2 hit kills exist. The only way they would exist in my system is if a move was given too much power or led into a series of move that deal too much damage.......which it sounds like Namco did with your example.

I don't subscribe to the suggestion in the second paragraph, either. While I realize that we human beings aren't perfect, I also realize that Street Fighter has been around for a long time. Surely we can put our minds together and come up with something that's balanced. I've had this concept in my head since about a year after SF3:ANG came out. (That's...what...1996 or so?) Tekken's had no juggle infinites ever...but the potential for 100% combos has always been there because of how powerful the moves are in that game on average...so the introduction of walls may have introduced infinites (Do they actually exist??? If so, I'm shocked.).

Sure...what Capcom puts out next may have bugs. My question is, however, with my system in place, would it have infinites or any unpleasant results that I'm not seeing? I await your answers to that question.

[polarity]

I'd rather just not have such a loose juggle system to begin with; it's not really a strategically interesting part of gameplay. Something like CvS2 would be nice.

[FreshOJ]

Heh, thats just what Guilty Gear does. That and good combo damage scaling that keeps infinites from ever people damage effecient even if they do exist(I can think of one that exists currently, but it's usually only done for a few reps -> super)..... and even then, you'll get to burst at some point.

For some reason I'm not too worried about this. Infinites don't necessarily make a game broken and broken games don't necessarily have infinites.

I guess I really need to see Guilty Gear in action, then! But...again, you're saying that there is a series of moves that can be done infinitely in that game? That's not acceptable to me...regardless of whether or not damage scaling allows it to become a 100% combo because if you keep the opponent in that combo until time runs out, they have no chance whatsoever to come back from that. The same net effect is achieved...you lose. (I could never see myself doing that without being bored to tears, but turtles would absolutely love that!)

Granted, one of my favorite fighting games is Marvel Super Heroes and it has a ton of infinites, some dizzy combos, and a few 100% combos in special situations, and I don't consider that game 'broken", but at this stage of the fighting game history, so to speak, I think it's about time for a game engine that designed well enough that infinites don't exist.

I would prefer that you absolutely HAD to do a limited number of reps determined by the gravity in the game, rather than having the option to keep doing the same thing. Wouldn't you?

[FreshOJ]

I'd rather just not have such a loose juggle system to begin with; it's not really a strategically interesting part of gameplay. Something like CvS2 would be nice.

I can see your point somewhat, but 'juggling' and 'strategy' don't seem related to me unless you're only juggling to attain some sort of position in the middle of the screen. (Obviously, if you're in the corner and you can keep juggling, you'd want to carry that juggle to the point that the game engine lets you do so. My suggestion is an engine that has physics that limit that.)

I think juggling is more under 'offensive creative license', since it's a type of combo. I like what CvS2 does with juggling, but I also think that a fighting game can be made to the point where moves on airborne opponents don't have to whiff in order to produce balanced gameplay. I think my system helps to produce that environment without skewing risk-reward and also giving offense some creative license when it comes to how they want to claim their reward.

[SnickerSnack]

I guess I really need to see Guilty Gear in action, then! But...again, you're saying that there is a series of moves that can be done infinitely in that game?

In Guilty Gear, both damage and air hitstun decreases with a high hit counter.

Also, there's a defensive system called "burst", that uses it's own separate gauge (as in, doesn't use the super gauge) and can be used to blow the opponent away when you are getting hit ( a sort of combo braker).

The catch is that burst themselves have a signifcant startup and a horrible recovery, and the opponent can bait them and punish if you are predictable, therefore restarting the combo (wich now will be able to cause even more damage, thanks to the fact that at this point you no longer have a burst for he to worry about, and thanks to the fact that the hit counter has reset). You start with the burst gauge full, and after it is used, it replenishes slowly with time, and faster as you take hits.

Thanks to this system, there are very few infinites in the game (thanks to the air hitstun decrease), and even these very few (usually done against a grounded opponent, and only under very specific conditions), aren't all that much of a threat, because the damage from every individual hit will quickly decrease to 1 pixel/hit, and meanwhile the opponent will soon get his burst gauge back, allowing him to escape.

[KayinNasaki]

In Guilty Gear, both damage and air hitstun decreases with a high hit counter.

Also, there's a defensive system called "burst", that uses it's own separate gauge (as in, doesn't use the super gauge) and can be used to blow the opponent away when you are getting hit ( a sort of combo braker).

The catch is that burst themselves have a signifcant startup and a horrible recovery, and the opponent can bait them and punish if you are predictable, therefore restarting the combo (wich now will be able to cause even more damage, thanks to the fact that at this point you no longer have a burst for he to worry about, and thanks to the fact that the hit counter has reset). You start with the burst gauge full, and after it is used, it replenishes slowly with time, and faster as you take hits.

Thanks to this system, there are very few infinites in the game (thanks to the air hitstun decrease), and even these very few (usually done against a grounded opponent, and only under very specific conditions), aren't all that much of a threat, because the damage from every individual hit will quickly decrease to 1 pixel/hit, and meanwhile the opponent will soon get his burst gauge back, allowing him to escape.

Well first off, this is done by a character that would never exist in a standard Street Fighter game (laying traps and shit all over the stage - -basically landmines and nets), so they situation is a bit stranger then what would happen with these systems in a Street Fighter game. Guilty Gear also has another mechanic which is bursting. It's basically a meter that fills up and when full (about once around, but in an infinite like the one mentioned it'll be faster) it allows you to 'burst' at any time(like in block or hit stun, falling state, on the foor. Whatever) to knock your opponent off you. So theres really no true infinites in Guilty Gear because of it. The burst system has a bunch of interesting things going for it(it isn't necessarily safeand can be baited and it has alternate uses offensively blahblahblah), but whatever.

I don't think Street Fighter would need a system like burst or anything, since the type of characters in the game are less likely to have ways to beat the system... In this case, juggling someone between two nets, or in an older case with a different character, constantly interlacing attacks between you and a spectral dog that acts as a second character you control at the same time. I don't think SF would have much to worry about if just simple counter measures are implemented.

Edit: Or what Snickersnack said, yeah.

[FreshOJ]

In Guilty Gear, both damage and air hitstun decreases with a high hit counter.

Also, there's a defensive system called "burst", that uses it's own separate gauge (as in, doesn't use the super gauge) and can be used to blow the opponent away when you are getting hit ( a sort of combo braker).

Ewww...you said 'combo breaker'! Pardon me while I clean out my ears. Ok...continue. :)

The catch is that burst themselves have a signifcant startup and a horrible recovery, and the opponent can bait them and punish if you are predictable, therefore restarting the combo (wich now will be able to cause even more damage, thanks to the fact that at this point you no longer have a burst for he to worry about, and thanks to the fact that the hit counter has reset). You start with the burst gauge full, and after it is used, it replenishes slowly with time, and faster as you take hits.

Thanks to this system, there are very few infinites in the game (thanks to the air hitstun decrease), and even these very few (usually done against a grounded opponent, and only under very specific conditions), aren't all that much of a threat, because the damage from every individual hit will quickly decrease to 1 pixel/hit, and meanwhile the opponent will soon get his burst gauge back, allowing him to escape.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. :) I can kinda imagine this now. (I actually may have seen Guilty Gear in action before...maybe once or twice, but that was some years ago.)

I'm still left wondering why Guilty Gear, which I've heard is a great game and I'm not trying to knock that because I don't have any experience on the subject, has ground infinites in it at all. It *is* relatively new compared to Street Fighter, I'll give it that, but it should be common knowledge by now in every fighting game that if you have a move that produces hit stun, is fast enough to be comboed into on the ground, and produces enough stun to be followed up with a move or series of moves that can lead back to that same move, you're going to have an infinite. That will always be true. Like I said before, even with damage scaling coming into play, the attacker has the ability to hold the opponent in that combo until time runs out.....burst or not. That just shouldn't be available. I don't know why the 'Burst' feature was put into that game, but if was specifically to cover up the ground infinites, that's wack. Kudos to the Guilty Gear developers for the reducing air hitstun thing, though, especially if that resulted in absolutely no infinite juggles.

I'm glad Capcom will be having some of the best Street Fighters in the world testing SF4.

[KayinNasaki]

Well, like I said, the situations in Guilty Gear are a little stranger. Like what can happen when two characters are controlled at the same time in just the right setup. Or in one case a command grab that can be linked into it's self by glitchery. Or, in X, infinites by canceling moves into a defensive motion to counter lag.. or all crazy stuff having to do with exploiting the complex engine or character oddities. Then again, I don't think any of these are true infinites though, because you get increased pushback over combo time. But they certainly went on for awhile!

[Sephiroth73003]

Your increased Gravity idea is in a few 3D games i've played and it works, but I'd rather have the testers just pay serious attention to their own frame data.

I agree though that one mistake shouldn't result in an opponent you otherwised outplayed be able to 100% you especially if most characters in the game don't have those options. You should be able to hit HARD for serious mistakes but not that hard. Amount and such should be character dependent naturally.

A ground infinite is very easy to prevent if they just make sure their is no way to link Move A into move B that can eventually cancel or link back into move A. This is the easiest type of infinite to prevent and really only occurs in games that lack serious testing and your gravity idea wouldn't affect this as it all occurs while landed.

100% combo. This is the same as an infinite and normally is done in SF through a 100% stun combo into the same combo if it deals 50% just do the combo again for another 50% damage to kill off the opponent or redizzy. Again fairly easy to prevent by just making sure that no one has a combo that can 100% stun AND deals 50% plus damage. Makoto's was a mistake caused by the fact kara'ing wasn't caught in testing, though it still allowed her to 100% Remy and akuma WITHOUT a kara combo so i think they should have reduced the stund on her FP fukiage a bit so it was only like 90% stun or so on them. I wouldn't take out the dizzy as it adds a large amount to some characters game such as Necro and Makoto in 3S and I like that, but a practical 100% stun that results in a 100% combo isn't right.

Juggle infinites are what your worried about and are probably the hardest to test for and what your interested in I have to go to class for now but i'll respond later.

[Arsenal]

For the SF feel, something close to CvS2 or 3S would be nice. Allowing GG-ish combos takes a certain feel away from SF I think.

[arstal]

Oy-na-je.

Damn, never thought I'd see you come back.

I don't mind bursts that cost offensive meter.

Only real way to prevent infinites to me is proper testing, especially of moves that juggle and moves that give advantage on hit.

[FreshOJ]

Oy-na-je.

Damn, never thought I'd see you come back.

I don't mind bursts that cost offensive meter.

Only real way to prevent infinites to me is proper testing, especially of moves that juggle and moves that give advantage on hit.

Hey...someone recognized me! Kewl. :) Now...who are you? :)

Anyway, in Guilty Gear, I could see why something like 'Burst' would be necessary based on what everyone else was telling me about how frantic and complex gameplay is on that game.

That being said, I think the history of the genre has shown that proper testing can only get you so far. Even if we have the best SF players in the world testing SF4, there's bound to be stuff that they miss if the designers of the engine don't handle the flaws that are common to every juggle and stun move that leave the door open to infinites, whether ground-based or not. Focusing on tightening up every move will be much easier once that's done, IMHO.

[KayinNasaki]

For the SF feel, something close to CvS2 or 3S would be nice. Allowing GG-ish combos takes a certain feel away from SF I think.

No ones suggesting GG style combos in a SF game, we're just using it as an example of how a game has systems that prevents infinites pretty well considering how the game works.

I think just the gravity system would be good enough. SF will never have magical pool balls, yo yos, shadow creatures or silly tree things to lead to crazy infinites.

[Sephiroth73003]

They won't have evil little shadows that lead to 3 unblockable setups either :crybaby:.

[Humbag]

Basically as long as SF doesnt have Eddie...Ill be happy.

:P

[Dasiatic]

say here's something fun. do you think that capcom had only made the SF4 trailer with no set attack plan for the game at all, and are probally reading these threads for some reference?
that would be funny.

"hmmm, GG system? check. Rose coming back? check. silly tree things?....maybe.."

[FreshOJ]

A ground infinite is very easy to prevent if they just make sure their is no way to link Move A into move B that can eventually cancel or link back into move A. This is the easiest type of infinite to prevent and really only occurs in games that lack serious testing and your gravity idea wouldn't affect this as it all occurs while landed.

Everything you said is true...especially about how easy it is to avoid making moves that lead to ground-based infinites. I just want to make sure you knew that I did address the ground-based infinite thing in there and never claimed that my "anti-infinite physics" would address those easy to fix infinites. Thankfully, I realized this about a day after I thought about starting this thread.

100% combo. This is the same as an infinite and normally is done in SF through a 100% stun combo into the same combo if it deals 50% just do the combo again for another 50% damage to kill off the opponent or redizzy. Again fairly easy to prevent by just making sure that no one has a combo that can 100% stun AND deals 50% plus damage. Makoto's was a mistake caused by the fact kara'ing wasn't caught in testing, though it still allowed her to 100% Remy and akuma WITHOUT a kara combo so i think they should have reduced the stund on her FP fukiage a bit so it was only like 90% stun or so on them. I wouldn't take out the dizzy as it adds a large amount to some characters game such as Necro and Makoto in 3S and I like that, but a practical 100% stun that results in a 100% combo isn't right.

So....Makoto has a Touch of Death combo, a combo that does at least 50% damage and dizzies? I really hate that I'm so ignorant of what exists in Third Strike. What is Makoto's ToD combo? Are there any others? Can you still do Ryu's corner combo of j. roundhouse, c.fierce -> ShinShoryuken, close standing forward, short Lunge Kick? Does he have a better combo than that?! I wouldn't ask here, but I haven't seen any answers to this on any of the combo FAQs on GameFAQs...but I could've easily missed something.

I do think ToD combos, while loads of fun for the attacker to land, should not exist. There are two choices there....either reduce the stun damage or increase the stun meter. Since Akuma and Remy have the shortest stun meters in the game, it sounds like their meters would need a boost.

[KayinNasaki]

I would argue for Makoto's touch of death dizzy combo, but I'm bias. I like that sort of explosiveness. Anyways, it involves her getting her command grab off, with meter in a situation where she's toward the corner with her back to it, where she can combo into SA2 and do some kara fuckery to get a dizzy. If has two meters worth, she can do SA2 -> Max Damage Combo to kill a lot of characters. I think it's okay ecause it requires several situations to be true but adds a lot of fear to her grab. It's scary, but the situation to murder people with it isn't always achievable without the attacker putting themselves into the situation. If she could always do it off her grab then it might be a problem, but it requires positioning thats difficult to offenisvely achieve. Or something.

Basically it requires the attacker to fuck up or for you to be sneaky. Both of which I think are fun.

[Pimp Willy]

Makotos 100% also takes 2/2 super bars, and very accurate kara cancelling where a mistake will end up costing you. As well, its limited to where on the screen you are when you get grabbed. It's not as simple as grab->100% from anywhere you want under any circumstance.

Edit: Same time, sime idea as above post : P

Heres a vid showing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Adq21GyPS4

[Demon Dash]

The only thing that can really save a game from infinites is good beta testing and subsequent updates. Infinites can come from absolutely anything and no matter how hard you try to combat them, you'll probably end up making one because of it. What Capcom need to do is first decide where they're going with the gameplay, before they concentrate on how to combat infinites.

Even in the past attempts to stop infinites have failed. When they release A3 they introduced neutral states and recovery, which in essence are a way to combat infinites. But they made a few tiny mistakes, like making crouch so it can cancel your post jump frames, or the earliest frames of recovery being so vulnerable. Yes the crouch cancel added trip guard, but it was a blatant flaw in the design as it allowed you to skip out your neutral frames.

[Sephiroth73003]

FK Karakusa>FP>SA.II>Dash>FP Fukiage>j. FP
Stuns Akuma and Remy and cuz of there low life you can do another SA.II combo into death.
FK Karakusa>FP>SA.II>Dash>MP Kukiage (kara-FK)>Dash>LP Fukiage
Stuns Ken and Ryu and alot of the cast with a good chunk of damage. It's hard and even people that can do it tend to not have a 100% rate, but it's still really good. However on most people of this health I'm pretty sure at 100% life it results in like 98% health or something.

Patches would be nice to fix somethings but than we'd have to make the arguments on what SHOULD be fixed and whatnot. I don't want SFIV to turn into WoW where a bunch of people bitch about stuff they find annoying and someone patches it just to appease them without considering the consequences. That fear would make me argue against patches.

Would you remove kara'ing from 3S? Roll Cancelling from CvS2? If one character is to good and he's nerf'd how do you make the nerf so you don't have to nerf character number 2 if he/she becomes number 1? Someone will cry for it others will cry against it and we'd have to trust capcom to be objective, but

To stop juggle infinites I don't mind the arbitrary juggle limit. It worked well despite on paper it seeming a bit unnecessary, nor did it feel constrictive. Though it in 2.5D graphics or so it would definately look wierder than in 2d. Gravity is an anwser as well, but in the end good testing plus a decent limit is good enough.

[Corner-Trap]

Heres a very simple juggle system that makes infinites impossible.

-Any hit can juggle as long as it hits the opponent in mid-air
-Every time you juggle, your opponent falls even faster
-Slower attacks generally juggle higher
-Faster attacks generally juggle lower

This is a very simple juggle system that still allows you to make your own combos, but you're only going to get like 5 hits at max, so infinites won't be possible.

[Tigerboi]

^very good idea, but not all infinites are the result of a juggling issue. They'd still have to work hard to eliminate any grounded infinites as well.

Sometimes infinates are caused by things the devs never intended to be in the game at all. (Fox's waveshine infinite in smash. and please,nobody come at me with the "wavedashing is not a gltich" debate. If WDing isn't a gltich than niether is RCing) so the first step would just be to play test and polish the crap out of it to avoid any bugs.

then from there, they could focus on fighting infinites. If one gets found, patch it up.

And yeah, patching through DLC is one thing fighting game devs need to start doing. In this day in age, it would only make sense to do that instead of releasing a totally different "fixed" version of the game.

[KayinNasaki]

Sorry Tiger, I gotta bite. Theres no way you can compare RCing to wave dashing. RC is a bug in the programming, that, like many kara cancels, instill improper properties into other moves. Wave dashing is isn't doing anything like that. All the features of the motion were programmed. It is just being used in an unforseen way. Wave dashing is as much of a glitch as Tigerkneed air moves. It's an oversight. Theres a difference. Nothings happening that isn't supposed to happen. You're supposed to slide if you air dodge onto the ground. You're not supposed to get invinsible specials if you cancel a roll into a special.

As a note, this wouldn't of come up if you just left it as 'stuff that was never intended', because glitch or oversight it certainly wasn't intended to be used as it is.

But yeah, you and Demon Dash bring up the right point. Theres no way to avoid stuff getting through and while it's a good idea to put a few things in place to try and stop them, it's more important to set your focus first and worrying about fixing things later. Fighers ALWAYS need revisions before they get really good and any one thats good that didn't get one probably would benefit a lot from one anyhow.

[Endless]

I might get heat on this but....


They should go back to old school style, and have ZERO juggles.

Juggles felt so wierd to me when they were implemented in ST, and even though I'm used to it now from all the 3D games and 3S, it's not really normal. In all of the animated SF films, I don't think there was any juggles, but the fights were still badass.

SF4 should return back to it's street fighting roots, IMO.

[Tigerboi]

Juggles are an easy way for a team to implement garunteed combos without having to think to hard. It's common sense that someone's defensless in a juggle state, so it's common sense for the player to hit them multiple times and figure out combos from there.

But quite honestly, juggles look goofy and don't ever make any logical sense. But then again, neither does shooting fireballs from your hands.

Sorry Tiger, I gotta bite. Theres no way you can compare RCing to wave dashing. RC is a bug in the programming, that, like many kara cancels, instill improper properties into other moves. Wave dashing is isn't doing anything like that. All the features of the motion were programmed. It is just being used in an unforseen way. Wave dashing is as much of a glitch as Tigerkneed air moves. It's an oversight. Theres a difference. Nothings happening that isn't supposed to happen. You're supposed to slide if you air dodge onto the ground. You're not supposed to get invinsible specials if you cancel a roll into a special.


Taking consideration into what you said, by definition, no, WDing is not a glitch.

But I would say that from a development standpoint it's definatly a design flaw that does seem to be simply overlooked by the dev team. I've always said that about tigerkneed moves as well, but whatever. I don't want to get certain people started.

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

Now heres a way to avoid ground infinites.

-All attacks send your opponent into hitstun
-If you land another attack while your opponent is in hit stun it'll combo
-Slower attacks cause longer hit stun
-Faster attacks cause shorter hit stun

Now we have a way to avoid ground and air infinites without making things too complicated.

Heres a very simple juggle system that makes infinites impossible.

-Any hit can juggle as long as it hits the opponent in mid-air
-Every time you juggle, your opponent falls even faster
-Slower attacks generally juggle higher
-Faster attacks generally juggle lower

This is a very simple juggle system that still allows you to make your own combos, but you're only going to get like 5 hits at max, so infinites won't be possible.

[FreshOJ]

The only thing that can really save a game from infinites is good beta testing and subsequent updates. Infinites can come from absolutely anything and no matter how hard you try to combat them, you'll probably end up making one because of it. What Capcom need to do is first decide where they're going with the gameplay, before they concentrate on how to combat infinites.

Even in the past attempts to stop infinites have failed. When they release A3 they introduced neutral states and recovery, which in essence are a way to combat infinites. But they made a few tiny mistakes, like making crouch so it can cancel your post jump frames, or the earliest frames of recovery being so vulnerable. Yes the crouch cancel added trip guard, but it was a blatant flaw in the design as it allowed you to skip out your neutral frames.

Well...okay...you've stated a point, but you didn't mention anything from my suggestion that wouldn't prevent infinites. I can see where our experience could lead one to adopt a fatalistic attitude of "we'll never stop those infinites no matter how hard we try, man!", but...sorry...I'm not the one. I don't believe that just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. If I had the time to tell you what's happened in my life to the contrary, you'd be blown away. Don't get it twisted...I know I have idealistic tendencies, but the realist in me is saying that it can be done...'cause I've seen it done in 3D games.

Using A3 as an example again, the question becomes.....why were flip-outs even necessary? Why was that limit of one combo against the wall necessary? When A3 implemented the whole idea of hits accelerating the opponent farther and farther away, what stopped that from being enough? Obviously, CCs change things, but under normal, non-meter circumstances, consider the above questions.

What I'm contending is that there are certain things in fighting games that should be universal because...bottom line...they will universally solve problems that can plague any fighting game. Whether or not bugs or flaws come up is random...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think this is something that could be implemented bug-free provided that it's something that controlled, not by the fighters themselves, but by the environment they're in. Focus on the engine first, then work on the fighters....and it will work.

[Demon Dash]

The acceleration style you're suggesting has been used before, it was used in HnK. After 12 juggles in HnK gravity stops pushing up and starts pulling down, at a stronger rate each hit. Combined with OTG properties it was actually the cause of most infinites. Because rapid fire attacks could be canceled in to and out of each other, it allowed mid screen semi infinites as the opposing sprite simply can't fall out of the combo. It was kind of defining in HnK as the whole idea of the infinites is getting the hit count as high as possible, before you get to the corner. OTG bounce made it worse in that game however as the acceleration carried over into it, causing the dribble combos at 35 hits and the A + C dribble combos at around 55 hits.

[FreshOJ]

say here's something fun. do you think that capcom had only made the SF4 trailer with no set attack plan for the game at all, and are probally reading these threads for some reference?
that would be funny.

"hmmm, GG system? check. Rose coming back? check. silly tree things?....maybe.."

"Premium Member" or not...that last comment smelled like Haterade. By the way, if my idea of having a discussion on an idea I had was such a bad idea, why did you take the time to post a comment? I'm here for intelligent discussion...not flames. If I ignore a subsequent flame from you, that's why. Since '95, I've rarely participated in "wishlist" threads unless I know it's going to make a difference at some point in time. There's a method to my madness. Trust. I'm not a scrub. I'm just a guy who knows enough to consistently get to the second or third round of a tournament before I choke. Okay? :)

So...how did you like my SSF2 Link FAQ? Was it accurate? Was it useful to you? :) Thanks for appreciating that. :)

Anyway, if Capcom has a set plan of attack to get this game out in a year, I hope it's good and I will definitely speak up either way...but keep in mind that the reason I posted this both here and on the Capcom-Unity site is because Capcom was asking for feedback. They don't have to implement my idea right away...or even at all. I surely don't want them to if it results in a rushed game...and we've had too many of those.

I also realize that it's their choice to make. So, if my idea never sees the light of the video game screen, I'm happy to have finally shared it and bounced it off of some people.

Now...if you have valuable input on this subject, please feel free to give it. I welcome it. If not, you don't have to read this thread or reply to anything I've said. Simple choice...it's yours to make.

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

Honestly, your entire physics system is needlessly over complicated. I'm guessing you didn't see my suggestion last time, so here it is again.

Ground combos - Links

-Hitting your opponent on the ground will send them into hit stun
-If you hit your opponent again while they're in hit stun your attack will link
-Slower attacks will give longer hit stun
-Faster attacks will give shorter hit stun

Air combos - Juggles

-Hitting your opponent in the air will send them into float stun
-If you hit your opponent again while they're in float stun your attack will juggle
-Each time you juggle, your opponent will fall faster
-Slower attacks will juggle higher
-Faster attacks will juggle lower

This is a much more simplified combo system that still allows room to create your own combos, but eliminates the general possibility of infinites. This way you're going to have to start off your combos with slower attacks, but as the combo goes on you'll have to resort to faster attacks. And since faster attacks normally do less damage then slower attacks you may want to end your combo early before you're forced to end it with a weak jab. So at most you're only going to be doing 3 to 5 hits per combo.

[BigRick70]

how about no juggles?

or like ST... you can juggle only with a limited amount of moves for a limited amount of times

being able to juggle with everything just makes the game look more weird anyways

[Xiii]

I think the way the combo system was designed in 3S was great already if they want to build off anything. They just need to avoid certain design choices like Oro's chicken scratch combo and even though it's not the most common thing to see hit, Makoto's full stun 100% combo. I would also go as far as to really evaluate any characters similar to Remy in a new game that were to not have parrying or some other sort of universal move negation system (JD, Roll, etc) as Remy from fullscreen just spamming fireballs becomes extremely hard to deal with for most characters once he's in his rhythm. *And probably the exclusion of any Genei-Jin (VC) stuff would probably be for the better. I like combos to an extent, but there needs to be a limit when it comes to SF.

The system basically works in that ground attacks:
- Light/Fast hits push the opponent back a tiny bit.
- Strong/Slow hits push the opponent back a lot.
- They do their respective stun according to Light, Medium, Strong.
- The pushback works against the offensive player in the corner as well, pushing them away from a cornered opponent enough to avoid infinites.

Air based attacks work differently though:
- Most light and fierce attacks air reset the character making them invincible until they land.
- Medium attacks don't, but in general they lead into nothing except are used to to air target combos.

Air juggling someone from the ground is rather short lived with 3S' system as well as most moves just reset your opponent.

So really they already have a system that really only needs tweaking to accommodate any new features they want to add to the game. Don't see why they would need to add anything new. Capcom just needs to do what they normally do and design characters around their game system and avoid 2+ hit loops. The only real turn off I can see that people had against the game was parrying and how the game was built around it. Everything else is solid and worth being reused and tweaked if a less combo orientated system is wanted.

[polarity]

-Hitting your opponent on the ground will send them into hit stun
-If you hit your opponent again while they're in hit stun your attack will link
-Slower attacks will give longer hit stun
-Faster attacks will give shorter hit stun

uh, if you dont implement pushback you'll still have infinites here. it's finding ways to ignore pushback that causes ground infinites.

besides, when have infinites ever been such a big deal that they warrant all this fuss? the only time infinites have turned up in capcom games is generally when excessive freedom is given to the player. the marvel series is full of infinites because the juggle system, combined with 8 way airdashing, is so loose. a3 only has infinites thanks to VCs. sfa2 doesnt have infinites, nor does sfa1 to the best of my knowledge. none of the SF2 games have infinites. cvs2 has a single infinite which is so hard to set up it's almost a non-issue. cvs1 doesn't have any infinites (again, as far as i know), nor do 3s or NG. the only capcom game with a restrictive combo system that does have infinites is 2i, and that game came out over 10 years ago. what are you so scared about?

[FreshOJ]

The acceleration style you're suggesting has been used before, it was used in HnK. After 12 juggles in HnK gravity stops pushing up and starts pulling down, at a stronger rate each hit. Combined with OTG properties it was actually the cause of most infinites. Because rapid fire attacks could be canceled in to and out of each other, it allowed mid screen semi infinites as the opposing sprite simply can't fall out of the combo. It was kind of defining in HnK as the whole idea of the infinites is getting the hit count as high as possible, before you get to the corner. OTG bounce made it worse in that game however as the acceleration carried over into it, causing the dribble combos at 35 hits and the A + C dribble combos at around 55 hits.

HnK stand for.....what? I'm sorry that I'm not as in the know as I used to be regarding the variety of fighting games out there, but life has a nasty habit of refocusing one's priorities. :) I tried to look up the abbreviation you gave me to no avail. I wanted to see if I could see this game in action.

Anyway, in this game, moves stop pushing up after 12 juggles? Is that 12 hits or 12 separate juggles? I'm going to guess the former, but, even so...dude...that's like, majorly floaty! Based on everything you're telling me about this game, the gravity didn't work well enough because it was far too light. More downward acceleration per hit was needed. The OTG thing wouldn't have seemed so bad if that first problem was addressed.

So, your example shows me that it has, at least, been tried...and that's fine. Based on your example, however, I don't see how that same game couldn't have the downward acceleration per hit factor tweaked to where a balanced and fun game resulted...with, as you said, proper testing. You're example actually encourages me to believe that it's possible. It should do the same for you, as well, IMHO.

[FreshOJ]

Sorry Tiger, I gotta bite. Theres no way you can compare RCing to wave dashing. RC is a bug in the programming, that, like many kara cancels, instill improper properties into other moves. Wave dashing is isn't doing anything like that. All the features of the motion were programmed. It is just being used in an unforseen way. Wave dashing is as much of a glitch as Tigerkneed air moves. It's an oversight. Theres a difference. Nothings happening that isn't supposed to happen. You're supposed to slide if you air dodge onto the ground. You're not supposed to get invinsible specials if you cancel a roll into a special.

As a note, this wouldn't of come up if you just left it as 'stuff that was never intended', because glitch or oversight it certainly wasn't intended to be used as it is.

But yeah, you and Demon Dash bring up the right point. Theres no way to avoid stuff getting through and while it's a good idea to put a few things in place to try and stop them, it's more important to set your focus first and worrying about fixing things later. Fighers ALWAYS need revisions before they get really good and any one thats good that didn't get one probably would benefit a lot from one anyhow.

I can see your point here. Plus, afterall, let's not forget that it's a bug that wasn't found in Street Fighter 2:World Warrior that revolutionized the genre: interruptible moves.

But, I still think that this principle is still true. Experience is learning from your own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others. Since this genre is the age that it is, there's too much information out there from Capcom and non-Capcom fighting games not to try to implement play mechanics and environments that remove the conditions that cause the most prevalent gameplay faux pas. In English: We know what conditions cause 100%, Touch of Deach, and infinite combos (air or ground-based). We also know what has been tried in order to address those conditions and how those efforts have affect gameplay. We also know that, yes, bugs do still crop up and can either be a blessing in disguise or a curse that kills the gameplay. While game testing is the way to catch bugs and things of that sort, as you said, a plan has to be in place first...the game engine. If none of the above one-mistake-you-lose combos were intended for the engine you're developing, why not intelligently come up with a way that deals with those problems while avoiding what's already failed? Not only will it help the game you're developing, but it will also help games to come.

Once the engine has been developed and play-tested as thouroughly as possible and the bugs still come through, then they can be dealt with according to how they affect gameplay......but there will sure to be less bugs with solid development than without it. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail, afterall.

[FreshOJ]

Now heres a way to avoid ground infinites.

-All attacks send your opponent into hitstun
-If you land another attack while your opponent is in hit stun it'll combo
-Slower attacks cause longer hit stun
-Faster attacks cause shorter hit stun

Now we have a way to avoid ground and air infinites without making things too complicated.

Both your posts are the simpler version of what I typed (and I like them), but you forgot something in this one: special move recovery time.

Moves that are intended to cause longer than usual hit-stun (stun, capture, or hold moves) should never, ever, ever have a startup time that is shorter than the hit-stun from that move or from an interrputible hard attack.

Example: SF3 Alex's Flash Chops can't be comboed into another one of the same strength. The strong and fierce versions, which produce longer hit stun, can't be comboed from a close standing forward (which is his strongest interruptible attack). (While you can follow a fierce Flash Chop with a strong one and follow a strong Flash Chop with a jab one, this isn't something that unbalances the game or anything.)

Oh yeah...when the time it takes to charge, throw, and recover from throwing a projectile is shorter than the hit stun that projectile produces, that's an ground-based infinite waiting to happen. If said character can recover, walk up and immediately do a weak attack into that projectile again, that's the huge TV screen in Times Square with the word "INFINITE COMBO!" printed in rainbow colors with appropriately flashing background.

Infinite combo...bad. Balanced gameplay...good.

[YellowS4]

Thanks for seeing that. :)

Now, pardon my ignorance, but how were the infinites that were in SF3:ANG or SF3:SI dealt with in Third Strike?



Juggle limit in 3s.

[Pimp Willy]

Oh yeah...when the time it takes to charge, throw, and recover from throwing a projectile is shorter than the hit stun that projectile produces, that's an ground-based infinite waiting to happen. If said character can recover, walk up and immediately do a weak attack into that projectile again, that's the huge TV screen in Times Square with the word "INFINITE COMBO!" printed in rainbow colors with appropriately flashing background.

Infinite combo...bad. Balanced gameplay...good.

Whats an example of such an easy infinite that is in any top capcom titles? I'm curious.

[FreshOJ]

how about no juggles?

or like ST... you can juggle only with a limited amount of moves for a limited amount of times

being able to juggle with everything just makes the game look more weird anyways

How about a system where attacks don't whiff...at all...no matter what? It might take a bit more thought to do, but game designers have had since 1992 to think about this.

Otherwise, we'd be settling for SF2:15 Years Later or SSF2T:New Tournament Begins Again. I'm not the settling type.

[FreshOJ]

Juggle limit in 3s.

I thought I remembered that right. There's a page in the System Direction that lets you control how many hits you can juggle.

This genre is too old and people (players and designers alike) are too smart not to be able to come up with a non-arbitrary juggle limit. Surely we can have a game where the environment itself controls juggling without having to resort to whiffing attacks.

[Xiii]

Whats an example of such an easy infinite that is in any top capcom titles? I'm curious.

Marvel vs Capcom 2. Iron Man and Magneto have lots of setups for infinites that aren't hard to do in ab actual match. Also pretty easy to do rejump infinites on a grounded Sentinel unless the player is good enough to avoid being caught on the ground with Sentinel. Though of course your opinion of top may differ, but MvC2 is one of the more popular Capcom titles here in North America.

I thought I remembered that right. There's a page in the System Direction that lets you control how many hits you can juggle.

This genre is too old and people (players and designers alike) are too smart no to be able to come up with a non-arbitrary juggle limit. Surely we can have a game where the environment itself controls juggling without having to resort to whiffing attacks.

System direction only lets you turn off the limit. Though I don't see the problem with the limit itself, most characters can't even hit that limit to really abuse it and it's there just to make sure people aren't able to come up with any infinites. Still doesn't stop 100% combos, but that is a different problem in itself.

[polarity]

I thought I remembered that right. There's a page in the System Direction that lets you control how many hits you can juggle.

This genre is too old and people (players and designers alike) are too smart no to be able to come up with a non-arbitrary juggle limit. Surely we can have a game where the environment itself controls juggling without having to resort to whiffing attacks.

what is so great about juggling that a game needs it in the first place?

[FreshOJ]

uh, if you dont implement pushback you'll still have infinites here. it's finding ways to ignore pushback that causes ground infinites.

besides, when have infinites ever been such a big deal that they warrant all this fuss? the only time infinites have turned up in capcom games is generally when excessive freedom is given to the player. the marvel series is full of infinites because the juggle system, combined with 8 way airdashing, is so loose. a3 only has infinites thanks to VCs. sfa2 doesnt have infinites, nor does sfa1 to the best of my knowledge. none of the SF2 games have infinites. cvs2 has a single infinite which is so hard to set up it's almost a non-issue. cvs1 doesn't have any infinites (again, as far as i know), nor do 3s or NG. the only capcom game with a restrictive combo system that does have infinites is 2i, and that game came out over 10 years ago. what are you so scared about?

Fear doesn't motivate people to seek and keep "better", confidence does. I'm confident that game designers are capable of "better" design and that players would be even happier with "better" gameplay. (Granted "better" is subjective, but even you wouldn't honestly argue that something that takes the risk-reward ratio to one mistake equals 100% damage is good for fighting games...would you?)

I've never been scared of infinites because, quite frankly, I always saw and experienced people messing up infinites and ultimately losing to me because I simply relied on big combos ending with supers. While I have been infinite comboed in tournament play before and still went back to play that same game time and time again, I'm still not convinced that a game can't be made infinite-free...especially when you put some thought into its design and its engine. Infinites were never intended and pretty much take the risk-reward ratio into a realm that it really shouldn't be in. That's a bug that needs to be squashed.

Yes, I realize that a game can be full of characters with infinites or have a few infinites that can only be done in certain situations, but does that mean that I have to settle for one-mistake-you-lose combos in future games? As much fun as I've had slapping them on people.......I don't think so. I demand better. I guess I'm picky, but it's worked for me. :)

[FreshOJ]

Whats an example of such an easy infinite that is in any top capcom titles? I'm curious.

Thankfully, there aren't any top Capcom titles that have such an easy infinite...unless you count SF2:Rainbow Edition Guile. :) I have, however, seen it in other non-Capcom titles, most notably Fatal Fury 3 and the version of King Of Fighters that had Ryuji Yamazaki and his Sand Blast Kick (I can't remember the year...it's been too long).

I wasn't saying that such an infinite existed in any top Capcom titles. I was saying that it's a general rule of thumb that when you have a projectile move that can be thrown, recovered from, and followed up with a move that lead back into that projectile move (whether by a link, a chain or any other move that you can do at any time) before the projectile's hit stun is over, you open the oven and VOILA...infinite! That's a gaping hole in game design.

[BigRick70]

How about a system where attacks don't whiff...at all...no matter what? It might take a bit more thought to do, but game designers have had since 1992 to think about this.

Otherwise, we'd be settling for SF2:15 Years Later or SSF2T:New Tournament Begins Again. I'm not the settling type.


hahaha okay,

I'll try to use my brain and bring new ideas into the table.

Hmm first thing that quickly comes into my mind could be to clearly define the properties of some moves and how they alter the state of the opponent.

For example, the character getting comboed could be in 4 different situations: Hitstun, Air Hitstun, standing, airborne.

Then you simply add properties and restrictions on moves that cause launch:

1) launchers (a la Dudley c.RH):
- if landed on a opponent that is in standing or hitstun, sends him flying up and puts him in air hitstun
- if landed on a opponent in air hitstun/airborne, knocks opponent down (would have a special animation for that so that it doesn't look to awkward). If needed, we could more hitlag so that the knockdown is guaranteed

2) AA launchers:
- if landed on a airborne opponent, sends him flying up and puts him in air hitstun
- if landed on a opponent in air hitstun, sends him flying downwards (ìnsert special ''getting hit out of the air animation'' here) again, we add a little more hitstun so that this situation guarantees a knockdown

(tl:dr) You can basically launch your opponent, but if you try to relaunch it will automatically end in a knockdown.

Then you can tweak the properties of moves that don't launch... some can reset, some can be chained (air target combos), some can knockdown, etc.

In the end, what I'm looking to establish here is a combo system where only one launch can be done per combo, and after the launch additional hits would either lead to reset or knockdown

[laugh]

Great idea for a thread. This is important.

I didn't read the thread much except the first post, but I really don't like the idea of making gravity stronger as more hits are comboed. That's what GuiltyGear and other similar style games do. Capcom has never done that I really like that. The juggle system of cvs2 was really well made and it didn't contain any game breaking infinites aside from impractical cases. I think having consistent timings is better over lazy fix for a infinite aka variable gravity during combos.

[FreshOJ]

what is so great about juggling that a game needs it in the first place?

What's so horrible about juggling that a game doesn't need it and doesn't need to fix any problems that may be associated with it that may very well be readily fixable with some creative and logical thought?

See how subjective questions can be used against you? That's called a logical fallacy.

I like juggling because it allows me to be more creative in claiming my reward for catching the opponent off-guard. That's my subjective opinion and it really doesn't have any effect on the validity or effectiveness of my suggestion. However, knowing that I'm not alone in that opinion does motivate me to share something that's been in my head for quite a while that could solve this problem. It could very well help this game and any other game that comes out. Yes, I know that, theoretically, that most likely won't happen in this forum, but like I said before, I'm just happy to share it and engage in intelligent discussion about it.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but does that annoy you somehow? It really shouldn't.

The basic premise behind my suggestion is...if I perform any attack that overlaps my opponent, they should go into hit stun. Go back to your first few days playing Street Fighter 2. Remember the first time you anti-aired your opponent's jumping attack with a normal move? Didn't you try to jump up and hit them? Did you try to make them sit on a fireball in mid-air only to have them land and block and then think, "Yeah, that would be too easy to anti-air them and then juggle them like that"? What if a game engine could be designed where you didn't have to have any whiffing of attacks take place in order to preserve good gameplay?

I think that's worth exploring. That's all. It's just my opinion. You don't have to be threatened by it. While the manifestation of this idea wouldn't be the next "Orville & Wilbur Wright's First Flight" discovery, I sure think it'd be nice. In the meantime, don't hate on the idea because I'm willing to explore it. Argue against it as you see fit, but my ideas are just as valid as yours. Time will reveal who is right or wrong and, in the end, it really won't matter anyway. It's still just a game that I'd like to see go higher in innovation and gameplay.

[FreshOJ]

Great idea for a thread. This is important.

I didn't read the thread much except the first post, but I really don't like the idea of making gravity stronger as more hits are comboed. That's what GuiltyGear and other similar style games do. Capcom has never done that I really like that. The juggle system of cvs2 was really well made and it didn't contain any game breaking infinites aside from impractical cases. I think having consistent timings is better over lazy fix for a infinite aka variable gravity during combos.

Thanks for the compliment about the thread.

Now....lemme get this straight. You think that programming into every move how much it would launch an opponent horizontally and vertically and then figuring out a formula for how much velocity each move would lose per hit so that juggles that aren't too drawn out yet give the attacker a sense of creativity and accomplishment without any infinites resulting is...lazy? Compared to picking a juggle limit number that may or may not end up being always enforced? To quote that great spokeman...er...dog, Scooby Doo, "Ruuh?!"

I can understand not wanting Capcom to copy from anyone else. But, given how old this genre is, there's too much data out there for any infinite to exist in any game at any time at all...whether by scooting around arbitrary limits or taking advantage of poorly devised in-game physics. Doing such would take a lot of work...and that's probably why such a thing is rare in 2D or 2.5D games.

[BigRick70]

The basic premise behind my suggestion is...if I perform any attack that overlaps my opponent, they should go into hit stun.

I think I addressed this issue in my last post hehe.

[FreshOJ]

I think I addressed this issue in my last post hehe.

...And here I was ready to go start a petition to have those red dots (okay...some of them) taken off of your reputation meter because of your well-thoughout last post and then you post this. :P

Don't worry...I'm going to reply to your post, though. It will be great. :)

[power333]

Capcom itself solved this problem in 1998 with the undizzy system in Marvel vs Capcom. It had the 1p side glitches, but it got perfected in MvC2. You simply can't do a 100% infinite with only normals at the game.

Instead of reducing the use of normals to reduce repetition, IF Capcom does not want inbfinites or high damage, they just need tro alter the undizzy system, to make it get activated by damage.

So, if you land a 60% combo, the moment you reach exact 60% in damage, the opponent will undizzy safely out of it. Capcom can do it with 40% as the damage limit if they want to.

Although I'd rather have complete freedom and just patch the game if anything is considered too stupid by most players.

[FreshOJ]

hahaha okay,

I'll try to use my brain and bring new ideas into the table.



That's better. See? Doesn't that feel better? :) Glad I could inspire you.


Hmm first thing that quickly comes into my mind could be to clearly define the properties of some moves and how they alter the state of the opponent.

For example, the character getting comboed could be in 4 different situations: Hitstun, Air Hitstun, standing, airborne.

Then you simply add properties and restrictions on moves that cause launch:

1) launchers (a la Dudley c.RH):
- if landed on a opponent that is in standing or hitstun, sends him flying up and puts him in air hitstun
- if landed on a opponent in air hitstun/airborne, knocks opponent down (would have a special animation for that so that it doesn't look to awkward). If needed, we could more hitlag so that the knockdown is guaranteed

2) AA launchers:
- if landed on a airborne opponent, sends him flying up and puts him in air hitstun
- if landed on a opponent in air hitstun, sends him flying downwards (ìnsert special ''getting hit out of the air animation'' here) again, we add a little more hitstun so that this situation guarantees a knockdown

(tl:dr) You can basically launch your opponent, but if you try to relaunch it will automatically end in a knockdown.

Then you can tweak the properties of moves that don't launch... some can reset, some can be chained (air target combos), some can knockdown, etc.

In the end, what I'm looking to establish here is a combo system where only one launch can be done per combo, and after the launch additional hits would either lead to reset or knockdown

I think your idea is very well laid out and has a lot of elements that can be useful. It reminds me of SFA3 (without the influence of flip-outs, CCs, crouch cancels, etc.). Nice.

[Endless]

Thankfully, there aren't any top Capcom titles that have such an easy infinite...unless you count SF2:Rainbow Edition Guile. :) I have, however, seen it in other non-Capcom titles, most notably Fatal Fury 3 and the version of King Of Fighters that had Ryuji Yamazaki and his Sand Blast Kick (I can't remember the year...it's been too long).

Yamazaki's infinite wasn't easy to do at all.

DP+LK => QCB+P, D button to cancel => DP+LK, repeat.
But you had to do all those motions in less than half a second.

[FreshOJ]

Capcom itself solved this problem in 1998 with the undizzy system in Marvel vs Capcom. It had the 1p side glitches, but it got perfected in MvC2. You simply can't do a 100% infinite with only normals at the game.

Instead of reducing the use of normals to reduce repetition, IF Capcom does not want inbfinites or high damage, they just need tro alter the undizzy system, to make it get activated by damage.

So, if you land a 60% combo, the moment you reach exact 60% in damage, the opponent will undizzy safely out of it. Capcom can do it with 40% as the damage limit if they want to.

You know what I'm going to say, don't you? Can't you hear the sound of one of the greatest...I mean...most annoying audio samples in all of fighting game lore?

Here it comes....

[Deep dark scary Shao Khan-like voice mode on]
"MAXIMUM DAMAGE!!!"
[off]

Please...no. Not that! No arbitrary limits! No Mortal Kombat 4-like design! Nooooo!


Although I'd rather have complete freedom and just patch the game if anything is considered too stupid by most players.

I'd rather have an engine that's indicative of thoughtful design that allows for freedom. That's usually a recipe for good gameplay. Complete freedom can lead to complete chaos if the engine ain't tuned right.

[FreshOJ]

Yamazaki's infinite wasn't easy to do at all.

DP+LK => QCB+P, D button to cancel => DP+LK, repeat.
But you had to do all those motions in less than half a second.

There I go showing you how much I know versus how much I've done again! :)

Still, with repetition, couldn't that be mastered? It might not be easy, but should it ever have been possible? Lemme think about it NOOOO!

[Corner-Trap]

uh, if you dont implement pushback you'll still have infinites here. it's finding ways to ignore pushback that causes ground infinites.

Well I thought pushback was simply an implied thing. Of course theres gonna be pushback whenever you connect an attack. Also I doubt you'll find a way to ignore pushback in my system, since whenever an attack connects(hit or blocked) it will cause pushback(you'll even get pushback in the corner). There are no other special rules implemented.

Both your posts are the simpler version of what I typed (and I like them), but you forgot something in this one: special move recovery time.

Moves that are intended to cause longer than usual hit-stun (stun, capture, or hold moves) should never, ever, ever have a startup time that is shorter than the hit-stun from that move or from an interrputible hard attack.

You're simply over complicating my system. Slower attacks = longer hit stun, faster attacks = shorter hit stun. Also, I want to make sure that you can't connect to attacks of the same speed in a row. So even though slower attacks give longer hit stun, the hit stun isn't long enough to connect another slow attack(same goes for fast attacks).

[polarity]

Well I thought pushback was simply an implied thing. Of course theres gonna be pushback whenever you connect an attack. Also I doubt you'll find a way to ignore pushback in my system, since whenever an attack connects(hit or blocked) it will cause pushback(you'll even get pushback in the corner). There are no other special rules implemented.

i can think of a couple games with ground infinites due to moves that move you forward before they hit (xvsf, breaker's revenge). there's probably more too.

[FreshOJ]

You're simply over complicating my system. Slower attacks = longer hit stun, faster attacks = shorter hit stun. Also, I want to make sure that you can't connect to attacks of the same speed in a row. So even though slower attacks give longer hit stun, the hit stun isn't long enough to connect another slow attack(same goes for fast attacks).

So, you're saying that my jab Hadouken should produce longer hit stun than my fierce one? Or, are you really trying to say.....the stronger the attack, the more hit stun produced? (Remember that there are some awfully fast hitting heavy attacks out there that are usually characterized by slow recovery.)

Either way, your suggestion still leaves room for a special move that might recover faster than hit stun and start up fast enough to be comboed into. That contingency HAS to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, infinity city, here we come!

Also, if slow attacks produce longer hit stun, then wouldn't the best course of action be...slow attack, fast attack? Wouldn't most of the faster attacks in the game be interruptible jabs and shorts? While I like your ability to simplify, there's a point where simplicity leaves gaps. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. Clarification is needed.

[Corner-Trap]

i can think of a couple games with ground infinites due to moves that move you forward before they hit (xvsf, breaker's revenge). there's probably more too.

Well ok then, heres a little renovation. The farther you move forward, the more pushback your attack has.

So, you're saying that my jab Hadouken should produce longer hit stun than my fierce one? Or, are you really trying to say.....the stronger the attack, the more hit stun produced? (Remember that there are some awfully fast hitting heavy attacks out there that are usually characterized by slow recovery.)

Either way, your suggestion still leaves room for a special move that might recover faster than hit stun and start up fast enough to be comboed into. That contingency HAS to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, infinity city, here we come!

Also, if slow attacks produce longer hit stun, then wouldn't the best course of action be...slow attack, fast attack? Wouldn't most of the faster attacks in the game be interruptible jabs and shorts? While I like your ability to simplify, there's a point where simplicity leaves gaps. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. Clarification is needed.

I just realized something. When I was designing this combo system I was making it for a 3D fighter. So I can see how this may have a few loop holes in a traditional 2D fighting game. So before we start with this on going combo system ideas, we need to state whether it's for 2D, 3D, or somewhere in between.

[Enishi]

Infinites add eye-candy to the game imo. Limiting them/removing them would take something away from the game. I'm sure many people enjoy going "Oh shit!" when someone pulls off a ridiculously long combo and what not, I know I do.

[Demon Dash]

The one thing I say is that it shouldn't have an outright cancel, like a Roman Cancel or Boost, as those are the abilities that tend to allow loops more easilly. In custom combos I think it's okay for loops as it's in a controled amount, but when you can just use a stock and extent the combo so much it creates problems.

They could go and do something as simple as only allowing each move to be used once in a combo, as it will fully guarentee that you can't extent each combo beyond a desired amount. That would of course draw attention to links but as long as the frame data (that's if it is 2D) is in good order it shouldn't cause too many problems.

[FreshOJ]

The one thing I say is that it shouldn't have an outright cancel, like a Roman Cancel or Boost, as those are the abilities that tend to allow loops more easilly. In custom combos I think it's okay for loops as it's in a controled amount, but when you can just use a stock and extent the combo so much it creates problems.

They could go and do something as simple as only allowing each move to be used once in a combo, as it will fully guarentee that you can't extent each combo beyond a desired amount. That would of course draw attention to links but as long as the frame data (that's if it is 2D) is in good order it shouldn't cause too many problems.

I agree with you about loops in controlled circumstances. I think the thing that really breaks Custom Combos is that you can usually get around the damage scaling in them by whiffing a move, which really shouldn't determine scaling at all. Damage scaling should be controlled by the combo meter and the strength of the hit. Maybe the amount of meter left needs to factor into that, too. I dunno...even with all of the tweaking that could be done, I don't think custom combos could really be fixed beyond some ensurance that they don't do more than a super (i.e. 50%) if the full meter is utilized. *shrug* So, for me...if they go bye-bye, I really won't miss them.

As for only allowing a special move to be used once in a combo, that was my arbitrary rule when playing Marvel Super Heroes. However, I still think there's too much knowhow out there in the game designing world to have to depend on something like that. Afterall, you can't continue the combo if the opponent has hit the ground (twice, if we're talking Marvel series). So, I think ensuring that the opponent can't be juggled at the same height for an infinite amount of time is the better way to go. Sure, it might allow you to use the same move once or twice, but the bottom line is that, no matter how hard you try, the opponent will hit the ground and the combo will end.

[FreshOJ]

Infinites add eye-candy to the game imo. Limiting them/removing them would take something away from the game. I'm sure many people enjoy going "Oh shit!" when someone pulls off a ridiculously long combo and what not, I know I do.

If eye-candy is your only concern, you need to be on a different thread...like the ones about graphics. At least that way, the combos will look kewl.

Meanwhile, those of us who enjoy good looking graphics AND good gameplay will do our best to suggest things that will eliminate one-hit-you-lose combos. I love combos, but I don't love them so much that I infinite people to death. (ToD's in SF2 are a different story, though, I have to admit, since they're so hard to land...but I still don't do them when some opportunities come.)

[Demon Dash]

As for only allowing a special move to be used once in a combo, that was my arbitrary rule when playing Marvel Super Heroes. However, I still think there's too much knowhow out there in the game designing world to have to depend on something like that. Afterall, you can't continue the combo if the opponent has hit the ground (twice, if we're talking Marvel series). So, I think ensuring that the opponent can't be juggled at the same height for an infinite amount of time is the better way to go. Sure, it might allow you to use the same move once or twice, but the bottom line is that, no matter how hard you try, the opponent will hit the ground and the combo will end.
I supose, but it would have it's advantages. I mean, it already exists in the magic series because you can't go backwards, but one of Marvel's main problems is as you say the juggles. You were talking about limitations being reset and in Marvel's case it's a neautral state. So if you were to remove the neutral state as a reset for the magic series it would allow an adventurous engine while at the same time limiting it's brokeness. It would mean that you could do a ground combo into an air combo and no more, which by games that aren't in the Marvel series' standard, is enough.

[FreshOJ]

I supose, but it would have it's advantages. I mean, it already exists in the magic series because you can't go backwards, but one of Marvel's main problems is as you say the juggles. You were talking about limitations being reset and in Marvel's case it's a neautral state. So if you were to remove the neutral state as a reset for the magic series it would allow an adventurous engine while at the same time limiting it's brokeness. It would mean that you could do a ground combo into an air combo and no more, which by games that aren't in the Marvel series' standard, is enough.

Exactly what I was trying to say from the beginning. I would suggest that for SF, by the way.

Now, to de-infinite the Marvel series, since you brought that up, I would take the Marvel Super Heroes engine and implement this system so that the accelerated gravity per hit factor started only after horizontally and upward launching knockdown moves, as those are usually the start and reset of most infinites. So, after any horizontally launching move (air combo finisher, special move, or super) or any vertically launching move that knocks down (air combo finisher, special move, or super), each hit would pop the opponent up less and less while pushing the opponent further and further away more and more. The only thing that would reset it would be an OTG combo (the opponent flat on their back on the ground) or the end of the combo itself. (As I was typing this, I realized that Spidey might still have a loophole with his aerial Web Ball combos that involve re-launching the opponent, which is why I wouldn't allow landing on the ground alone to reset the gravity factor.) Remember that the other rules that already apply in Marvel Super Heroes [i.e. no specials or supers after the flying screen effect] would still be in effect. Of course, that would mean that even though someone lands a long combo on you, you'd better stay awake or a throw could start that bad boy all over again.

Now.............can anybody see what this would do to Magneto and Iron Man's flying stuff? I mean, I can't see that helping their flying combos, but maybe I'm missing something.

[shoultzula]

Now.............can anybody see what this would do to Magneto and Iron Man's flying stuff? I mean, I can't see that helping their flying combos, but maybe I'm missing something.

they would still have their infinites but it won't go on as long. Then, you're giving them the optimal position for multiple mixup opportunities that they normally wouldn't have because of the gravity. Magnus can create that low angle but IM can't.

In marvel, the best position to mix someone up is basically the earliest possible frames of a jump. Right above the ground. They can't call their assist because they're still in the air and you gain an entirely new option tree because of dash under attacks.

So yea, you take away their infinite but you give them the best position to mix someone up repeatedly. No one is blocking 2 frame lows, and 5 frame highs consistently. There is no way any human on this planet can react that fast consistently.

also when you create these very low position because of combo gravity, you allow players to random attacks for switch side shit. The game has very weird hit boxes and if you attack right in the middle of a characters sprite, the game basically goes into random mode and will either make that move hit crossup or force the attacking character to the back side randomly.

You can't fix broken. You fix the infinites and take them away but you just break the game more where it wasn't as broken as before.

magnus: infinite till combo gravity starts kicking in. When the gravity is high enough for the opponent to be in the prime position for a mixup opportunity take it. This is what your giving magnus easily.

c.lk front side
front side over head lk\lp
front side overhead lk, mk
front side overhead RH
front side overhead FP
front side wiff cancel, crossup
front side wiff cancel, fake crossup

crossup RH
crossup LK
crossup LP

back side c.k
backside over head lk\lp
backside over head lk, mk
backside overhead Rh
backside over head fp
backsie wiff cancel crossup
backside wiff cancel fake crossup

and throws, tick throws, fake tick throws, fake tick throw into option tree.

then add delay's and relayer attack strings to every single one of these options and I didn't even add assists to it yet. Like I said, you can't fix broken. Take out the infinites, and the game is STILL fucked up. What it will turn into is peope abusing the combo gravity to get the lowest jump height possible, then use all the possible mixups that are impossible to block consistently. It might as well be an infinite because you're not going to block all of that.

so die in 1 hit, or die from multiple resets that jesus himself couldn't block consistently...

[sealhunta]

Roman cancels are nice, plus u can just make it so that with every loop of the inifnite, the opponent stays higher and higher in the air so u can only do like a few reps anyways, plus with damage scaling it is all good.

infinites arn't horrible though they add to the gameplay if it isn't too chessy

[FreshOJ]

they would still have their infinites but it won't go on as long. Then, you're giving them the optimal position for multiple mixup opportunities that they normally wouldn't have because of the gravity. Magnus can create that low angle but IM can't.

In marvel, the best position to mix someone up is basically the earliest possible frames of a jump. Right above the ground. They can't call their assist because they're still in the air and you gain an entirely new option tree because of dash under attacks.

So yea, you take away their infinite but you give them the best position to mix someone up repeatedly. No one is blocking 2 frame lows, and 5 frame highs consistently. There is no way any human on this planet can react that fast consistently.

also when you create these very low position because of combo gravity, you allow players to random attacks for switch side shit. The game has very weird hit boxes and if you attack right in the middle of a characters sprite, the game basically goes into random mode and will either make that move hit crossup or force the attacking character to the back side randomly.

Before I start, please note that I said I would use Marvel Super Heroes' engine, not Marvel vs. Capcom 2. That would mean that this system would be tested for optimal gameplay WITHOUT assists. I would hope that when Capcom first started testing MvC2, they did it without assists first and then included them in the equation. Assists pretty much complicate everything, so let's just leave that feature out of the equation for now.

Now, I have a question...with Magneto's infinite, is there a move in that sequence that involves an air combo finisher?

I'm familiar enough with Magneto to know that he has one (whether in MSH or even XvSF) that doesn't go beyond his jumping strong before going back to jumping d+short. (He may be able to link jumping jab after jumping strong, but I can't really remember.) With that said, I do see a hole in my engine for that because if launchers don't activate the gravity factor, then he can air combo and relaunch with impunity (and even end it with a super for dramatic flair). However, because none of the attacks in that sequence initiate the flying screen, that means that once the defender comes out of hit stun, they are in a neutral state and the combo is over...which means that if the attacking Magneto tries to go for either of his excellent air throws, he can either get hit out of it or get thrown himself. Still, this situation alone makes me think that the gravity factor would need to take effect after all launchers, too.

By the way...if Magneto's infinite involves Hyper Grav at all, the first step to take would be to make that move come out slower so that it doesn't combo after any normal move. In my game, no capture/hold/stun move would startup fast enough to be comboed into from a normal move. That's one of the easiest way to get rid of infinites, by far.

I knew I wasn't seeing something, so I'm glad you brought this up.


You can't fix broken. You fix the infinites and take them away but you just break the game more where it wasn't as broken as before.

magnus: infinite till combo gravity starts kicking in. When the gravity is high enough for the opponent to be in the prime position for a mixup opportunity take it. This is what your giving magnus easily.

c.lk front side
front side over head lk\lp
front side overhead lk, mk
front side overhead RH
front side overhead FP
front side wiff cancel, crossup
front side wiff cancel, fake crossup

crossup RH
crossup LK
crossup LP

back side c.k
backside over head lk\lp
backside over head lk, mk
backside overhead Rh
backside over head fp
backsie wiff cancel crossup
backside wiff cancel fake crossup

and throws, tick throws, fake tick throws, fake tick throw into option tree.

then add delay's and relayer attack strings to every single one of these options and I didn't even add assists to it yet. Like I said, you can't fix broken. Take out the infinites, and the game is STILL fucked up. What it will turn into is peope abusing the combo gravity to get the lowest jump height possible, then use all the possible mixups that are impossible to block consistently. It might as well be an infinite because you're not going to block all of that.

Even without assists, I definitely see your point. That's a lot to consider. Now I have more questions. Does this advantage exist with every character that can fly? What exactly causes the advantage? Is it simply air-dashing, is it the quality of the character's moves, or is it both? If air-dashing is the issue, what can be done about it to make it more fair for the defender without making flying useless? If it's the character's moves, what is it about the moves that cause this advantage and is there anything at all that the defender can do to get around them?

It may take a little creativity, but these questions *do* have answers. One thing that I'm still learning about big messes is that you have to break them down into small messes first before you can deal with them. If you try to take it all at once, you'll either be overwhelmed by the required effort of the task or you'll be so paralyzed by analysis that you won't even try.

[Sasmasta]

No infinites.

[FreshOJ]

Roman cancels are nice, plus u can just make it so that with every loop of the inifnite, the opponent stays higher and higher in the air so u can only do like a few reps anyways, plus with damage scaling it is all good.

infinites arn't horrible though they add to the gameplay if it isn't too chessy

Do you understand that I'm trying to create a system in which nothing you've suggested would be needed? You may want to read the original post first.

[Rioting Soul]

I don't subscribe to the suggestion in the second paragraph, either. While I realize that we human beings aren't perfect, I also realize that Street Fighter has been around for a long time. Surely we can put our minds together and come up with something that's balanced. I've had this concept in my head since about a year after SF3:ANG came out. (That's...what...1996 or so?) Tekken's had no juggle infinites ever...but the potential for 100% combos has always been there because of how powerful the moves are in that game on average...so the introduction of walls may have introduced infinites (Do they actually exist??? If so, I'm shocked.).

I know this is late but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF2mZ99ruFc


You're simply over complicating my system. Slower attacks = longer hit stun, faster attacks = shorter hit stun. Also, I want to make sure that you can't connect to attacks of the same speed in a row. So even though slower attacks give longer hit stun, the hit stun isn't long enough to connect another slow attack(same goes for fast attacks).

This sounds way too restricting. It sounds like there wouldn't be any links in your system. What about cr.short x 2?

[Corner-Trap]

This sounds way too restricting. It sounds like there wouldn't be any links in your system. What about cr.short x 2?

There are links in my system, just read below. I just wanted to avoid players linking several attacks of the same speed in a row, which could lead to infinites.

Ground combos - Links

-Hitting your opponent on the ground will send them into hit stun
-If you hit your opponent again while they're in hit stun your attack will link
-Slower attacks will give longer hit stun
-Faster attacks will give shorter hit stun
-long reaching attacks give more pushback
-Short reaching attacks give less pushback

Air combos - Juggles

-Hitting your opponent in the air will send them into float stun
-If you hit your opponent again while they're in float stun your attack will juggle
-Each time you juggle, your opponent will fall faster
-Slower attacks will juggle higher
-Faster attacks will juggle lower

[lino]

No infinites.

maybe for most of the cast, but no infnites would ruin the movie characters. van damme guile is just not van damme guile without his movie infnites. also the camera should take a cool angle and zoom in while van damme guile is preforming one of his infnites, so all four players and the spectators can enjoy his infnites to the fullest.

[Khiempossible]

Am I the only one who likes infinites and TOD combos?

AS long as they're balanced.

i.e. risk = reward, every character has the same power/equivalent tools.

[Corner-Trap]

Am I the only one who likes infinites and TOD combos?

AS long as they're balanced.

i.e. risk = reward, every character has the same power/equivalent tools.

What infinite do you know that has equal risk/reward?

[arstal]

How I'd do it.

Mostly there are three types of infinites

1)Juggle Infinites- this can be solved by a gravity system. The more times you are juggled, the faster you slam down to the ground. Eventually the infinite will stop. Guilty Gear and its myraid clones do this.

2) Re-Dizzies. Solution. No combo can do dizzy damage off a dizzy. Touches of Death could still happen. That can only be solved by playtesting. Or no dizzies, but dizzies is part of SF.

3) Link Infinites. If a link from a stronger or dashing normal to a weaker normal happens more then twice in a combo, it should cause a hard knockdown.

[FreshOJ]

How I'd do it.

Mostly there are three types of infinites

1)Juggle Infinites- this can be solved by a gravity system. The more times you are juggled, the faster you slam down to the ground. Eventually the infinite will stop. Guilty Gear and its myraid clones do this.

2) Re-Dizzies. Solution. No combo can do dizzy damage off a dizzy. Touches of Death could still happen. That can only be solved by playtesting. Or no dizzies, but dizzies is part of SF.

3) Link Infinites. If a link from a stronger or dashing normal to a weaker normal happens more then twice in a combo, it should cause a hard knockdown.

Number 1 is what I'd like to see happen, per my original post. Just make sure the pushdown effect is such that, after the initial "launcher" or juggle starter, three fast jabs would be all you could get on someone. Supers could reset the pushdown effect if and only if it could be guaranteed that we don't end up with that horrid infinite juggle glitch that V-Ism Custom combos have in SFA3.

Number 2 I'm willing to live with...kinda...sorta. Taking away dizziness is a no-no. I still think enough playtesting can be done on a game to spot and remove ToD combos before a game is released. Get some testers in there who know about discovering combos. Get the experts.

Number 3...I just can't get with that. If you're able to link from a stronger attack that moves forward into to a weaker one and it's fast enough to be linked after a weak attack, then that move needs to have MORE STARTUP TIME. Fix the move...especially if it moves forward enough to start an infinite combo! (In fact, any command move that you can follow up with at least a weak attack needs to have enough startup so that it can never be followed up from a strong normal attack. That's, of course, unless the weak attack is being linked from so far away that you could never connect that other move again. Still, that's a little much to allow into a fighting game.)

Don't opt for some arbitrary rule. That's been my point from the beginning. Arbitrary rules in fighting games are coverups for bad programming and design.

[BigRick70]

The gravity system works but can still leave room for loops... Guilty Gear loves them.

[arstal]

GG should not be used as a positive example period.

Onaje, The thing with #3, yeah it's an arbitrary rule, but it's a situation that will never happen unless it's an infinite. Therefore, I don't mind it as a rule.

Dizziness on a dizzy combo being capped at 49% or so could work as well.

[FreshOJ]

GG should not be used as a positive example period.

Onaje, The thing with #3, yeah it's an arbitrary rule, but it's a situation that will never happen unless it's an infinite. Therefore, I don't mind it as a rule.

Dizziness on a dizzy combo being capped at 49% or so could work as well.

Like I said before, Guilty Gear should've had a higher gravity ratio. Each juggle hit should've pushed the opponent further down than it did. Look at the way people fall from juggle hits in Tekken 4 or 5. Don't put the wall into the equation, just look at how they fall. I think I'd like to see that for juggles in SF....and actually, this kind of thing was present in SFA3 before you include everything else that was broken about juggles in that game.

And, again, what I'm trying to do here is get rid of programmer-determined rules. Whether links from stronger attacks into lighter ones exist, the engine should be such that there isn't a move out there that would reset your position in that combo. If that's true, you won't need rule #3 at all. Look at Ryu's crouching strong in any SF2. You could link a crouching short afterward, but by then, the opponent is so far away that the only move that has any chance of connecting is his Hadouken (and probably Shinkuu Hadouken in ST).

As for getting rid of ToD combos, that has to do with the strength of moves and what the engine allows combo-wise. All of that has to be tweaked. Hmmm....if we have damage scaling...why can't we have stun scaling? Random thought.

[Ultima]

Hi Onaje!

[FreshOJ]

Hi Onaje!

Hey...was your Variable Gravity concept in the Gameplay Suggestions Thread when you first posted it? If so, then I know this thread is pretty much redundant. :P

When did you actually come up with that?

[Ultima]

Onaje:

I came up with that stuff years ago, though I didn't has out the exact details until earlier this year.

Have you by any chance taken a gander at The Street Fighter Perfect Project (http://uramble.com/sfp), by any chance? :p

[FreshOJ]

Onaje:

I came up with that stuff years ago, though I didn't has out the exact details until earlier this year.

Have you by any chance taken a gander at The Street Fighter Perfect Project (http://uramble.com/sfp), by any chance? :p

Yep, that's where I saw it. Other than having Linn Kurosawa's gun as a fierce attack when I think it'd be better served as a special or a super, I think the project is pretty good overall. :) It's crazy that you and I have had similar ideas. I once did a character design for Linn in a fighting game. I wonder if that's on the web somewhere.

Anyway, it looks like my (your) idea regarding using gravity to get rid of infinites holds solid.