One thread for the new SF4 Info and Screenshot from 1UP [Archive] - Page 7

12-29-2007, 02:55 PM

From the information we've seen so far, it seems that dash cancelling doesn't take meter, but only Revenge moves (EXes and Saving moves) can be dash cancelled, and those do use meter.

Ah.

Personally I think this whole system seems retarded. First you get meter for getting beat up, which is dumb in itself. Also, say you have access to 4 stocks. You can do an EX DP, dash cancel it (which from the video looks safe on block), hit confirm, then continue the combo for big damage on connect, or do whatever blockstring you want if it's blocked. The risk/reward ratio is just way out of whack. At least with CCs, if you made a guess, you had to commit to losing all your meter, but here you only have to commit to losing 1/4.

Funny how Ono claims he wants to promote offensive play and then creates a system that, if it has any power at all, seems like it's going to discourage the player with the advantage from pressing it in all but the safest of manners.

Well, at least you're encouraging people to attack. It's sort of the reverse of the Alpha Counter idea, and the parry to some degree. You don't reverse momentum by baiting an attack or waiting for one, you have to be agressive, and you get rewarded with sort of mixup which sorta option selects from a combo opportunity, like Fei's Rekka Kens. And you're not directly punishing the defender like with a guard meter, though who's to say if that will be in the final version or not.

ellesd

12-29-2007, 02:56 PM

is he not ban-worthy now? trolling and flame-baiting are offenses, right? :wonder:

He sure is a good troll. I say this because I ignored him a few weeks ago, and even though he is on my ignore list, his garbage posts keep appearing before my eyes because no one will stop quoting him.... :confused:

Funny how Ono claims he wants to promote offensive play and then creates a system that, if it has any power at all, seems like it's going to discourage the player with the advantage from pressing it in all but the safest of manners.

My thoughts exactly. This is the only mechanic I've seen that I don't understand. So basically you get your FRC-esque move from the Revenge gauge, you get your Ultra from this gauge, and presumably more? This screams turtle to me, especially when its seemingly more powerful than the attack gauge (I'm being presumptuous, sure, but hey.. aren't we all?)

Your example is a good one. What would possess the advantageous player to keep that fast "guess whats coming next" pace if he knows the cornered opponent can just blow his load, get out of a bad situation and make things even? So basically, when you have a clear advantage your best option is to turtle? I can see in this situation, the disadvantageous player having to go on the offensive.. perhaps this is what he had planned. I'm with you though man, it seems awkward to me to say the least, but like I said I am just making assumptions.

Anyways, I typically steer the fuck clear away from this forum, so goodbye. :wonder:

polarity

12-29-2007, 03:00 PM

Ah.

Well, at least you're encouraging people to attack. It's sort of the reverse of the Alpha Counter idea, and the parry to some degree. You don't reverse momentum by baiting an attack or waiting for one, you have to be agressive, and you get rewarded with sort of mixup which sorta option selects from a combo opportunity, like Fei's Rekka Kens. And you're not directly punishing the defender like with a guard meter, though who's to say if that will be in the final version or not.

While that's true, if an offensive move allows you to turn the tables with a safe guess then it's only marginally different from an alpha counter. What worries me even more, though, is that if a player has Revenge bar built up and already has the advantage, they have incredibly powerful offensive options that just give the other guy more incentive to turtle.

Hisham

12-29-2007, 03:08 PM

My thoughts exactly. This is the only mechanic I've seen that I don't understand. So basically you get your FRC-esque move from the Revenge gauge, you get your Ultra from this gauge, and presumably more? This screams turtle to me, especially when its seemingly more powerful than the attack gauge (I'm being presumptuous, sure, but hey.. aren't we all?)

Your example is a good one. What would possess the advantageous player to keep that fast "guess whats coming next" pace if he knows the cornered opponent can just blow his load, get out of a bad situation and make things even? So basically, when you have a clear advantage your best option is to turtle? I can see in this situation, the disadvantageous player having to go on the offensive.. perhaps this is what he had planned. I'm with you though man, it seems awkward to me to say the least, but like I said I am just making assumptions.

Anyways, I typically steer the fuck clear away from this forum, so goodbye. :wonder:

If the player with the disadvantage "blows his load" to get even, the other player will probably have enough revenge meter to probably finish the match, so it gives the player with a disadvantage a reason to conserve his meter for use at the right moment. And that gives the player with the advantage to continue on a rush down strat.

This is all assuming that EX moves take off a significant portion of health.

Embryo

12-29-2007, 03:15 PM

If u look at these two clips you will see that SF4 really does have a similar feel and even look to the EX series. The animation might be more smooth somewhat but it still has the very stiff and akward look, see take a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF0JRh4hNIg and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzNkj43CuHU

KING

12-29-2007, 03:17 PM

While that's true, if an offensive move allows you to turn the tables with a safe guess then it's only marginally different from an alpha counter. What worries me even more, though, is that if a player has Revenge bar built up and already has the advantage, they have incredibly powerful offensive options that just give the other guy more incentive to turtle....in which case, it will be very difficult for him to turtle. :wonder:

did you think about that vein?

the advantage would go to the aggressor...which, in essence, is what Ono wanted in the first place.

professa_k

12-29-2007, 03:19 PM

Everytime I see more of this game, the more i think it's virtually rumblefish. I see everyone complaining this is a new sfEX. I guess no one ever played rumblefish. A super meter that increases with offense and a revenge meter that increases when blocking and getting hit? That's rumblefish's offense and defense meter. The new cancels and stuff (ex. canceling DP into dash, into other stuff) is stuff you can do in 3rd strike, turning on the "new direction" options. The gameplay style looks very much like rumblefish as well, just a little different to cater more to sf style. All in all, the comparison should not be that this is the new sfEX, its should be compared to rumblefish. I just wish that those character models have more of a japanese style to them, more like rumblefish. Then again, I think i read somewhere DIMPS (creator of rumblefish) has some part of the development of this game, so it all makes sense. My 2 cents.

Dencore

12-29-2007, 03:42 PM

The more I look into this, the more I respect Capcom in their stance with the fighting genre.

I mean look at it this way. They have something covered for everybody.

Street Fighter IV uses 3D models, it has a lot of characters from Street Fighter II to rekindle many past memories of previous players, it's character design is geared towards the mainstream gamer (steroid like muscles), how the flash intro specials bring in the more mainstream gamer. That isn't to say that the game doesn't appeal to the hardcore, but you have to admit Capcom is thinking of the mainstream gamer in mind with this title, at least presentation wise.

Street Fighter II HD Remix is yet another revamped Street Fighter II. Instead of re-releasing ports like they have for the past half decade this title rebalances and remodels the game. This is a true testament to old school Street Fighter Fans and Fighting Game fans.

Sengoku Basara X is also an important title to my eyes. Not only does it use modern 2D animation, but it shows that Capcom is willing to outsource it's titles to even well established studios. Capcom is giving one of the best developers in the market to give a shot at one of their franchises because they think that their take in capturing the essence of putting their franchise into a different genre is better then theres. I don't know about anyone else but I find this pretty cool. Imagine Capcom letting Arksys work on a side-scrolling 2D Devil May Cry.

Arcana Hearts coming to the PS2 shows that Capcom is willing to put games on platforms that no other publisher will. This reminds me much of Atlus USA who publishes games to the U.S. no other publisher would even dare to glance at. I give much support to this, imagine seeing Capcom port Big Bang Beat or a similar title to the Nintendo Wii or the XBLA/PSN market place?

This may not sound like too much, but what are the other fighting game developers/publishers doing?

SNK has been using the same sprites for fucking 10 years, and when they create new ones they look no better then the ones the made 10 years ago. And just when they said that they were going to redo all the sprites to make the "ultimate 2D fighter" they then state that they are going to use 3D Cell Shaded Models (http://kotaku.com/gaming/fighter/king-of-fighters-xii-confirmed-for-ps3-and-xbox-360-302738.php).

Namco-Bandai has been using the same exact two franchises for what seems like an eternity. The fact that Soul Caliber, a game that came out nearly a decade ago, was their last big new fighting game IP......well I don't know what else to say to that.

I could talk shit about Arksys, but they recently got off of SEGA-Sammy's ironfist. They're an upcoming developer/publisher so it's no surprise that they have to hold on to the Guilty Gear franchise to make sure they are on stable ground. So I will excuse this.

I don't know about anyone else, but I like this new Capcom. And they are trying harder much more then any other developer/publisher in this genre.

Embryo

12-29-2007, 04:07 PM

And u call CFJ hard work, SNK has been the only publisher to really be providing good and soid fighters as of late. In the last year alone we got KOFXI and NGBC...while the last fighter we got from Capcom has been CFJ. As a matter of fact, there isnt anything to suggest that Capcom really has a clue on how to make a great fighter anymore. They have been out of the loop for so long and we already have GG and the SNK tittles to fill the void, not to mention there going down the same route as the EX series it seems.

Kamui

12-29-2007, 04:23 PM

Assuming EX Shoryukens have invulnerability, a safe reversal that leads to big combos that include EX Specials and super combos is an exceedingly strong defensive maneuver. Point is, frame advantage and big damage for the attacker means nothing when a player can earn the same reward without having to take risks, which is what the attacker has to do.

It isn't certain how much damage these cancels lead to, but it's worth noting how potentially dangerous a dash canceled EX Shoryuken could be (in theory).

...in which case, it will be very difficult for him to turtle. :wonder:

Dencore

12-29-2007, 04:46 PM

margalis

12-29-2007, 05:00 PM

If you want to make the game more offensive then reward people for offense. Giving meter to people for getting beat up does not reward offense.

goodm0urning

12-29-2007, 05:07 PM

If you want to make the game more offensive then reward people for offense. Giving meter to people for getting beat up does not reward offense.This is hardly the first time this concept has ever been implemented, and it was hardly a failure in its previous incarnations.

polarity

12-29-2007, 05:26 PM

This is hardly comparable to something like K-Groove.

goodm0urning

12-29-2007, 05:37 PM

This is hardly comparable to something like K-Groove.Get hit --> meter. In that sense, yes, it is comparable to K-groove, and we really don't have much beyond that other than a mixture of reportage from clueless journalists and speculation by a forum full of high-level Theory Fighter 4 players.

elvis_a_presley

12-29-2007, 05:42 PM

Every time somebody compares SF4 to SFEX, a part of me dies inside. If everything else were exactly the same--the gameplay, the style of the designs, the animation, and everything else--none of you would say shit about SF4 being like EX if the graphics were rendered in sprites instead of polygons.
My comments have nothing to do with the graphics. Read them again. All of them were directed at the "offense anytime" approach to the EX series gameplay, and not their graphics.

Yes, I still think this is turning out to be another SFEX based on gameplay alone. SFEX is a good example of a fight done wrong, purely from a gameplay point of view (you can totally ignore the graphics). As many have mentioned, the comments from the designers have shown that they are moving away from the fundamental philosophies of competitive fighting games in a bid to attract mindless button mashers.

If you want to believe that I'm comparing this to EX simply because it's poly and not sprite, I can't stop you. But I assure you the similarities I'm looking at are beyond the graphics engine. The whole "come back at any time, cancel out of anything any time" crap is what I'm on about. None of that belongs in a Capcom fighter.

Sano

12-29-2007, 05:58 PM

Sano dunno why you're getting worked up over what those guys said.

LOL most of the other things EGM and 1Up.com say go over my head and I pay no mind since I know they talk out of their asses a lot, my Spidey Sense only goes off when they talk about artists. :rofl:

goodm0urning

12-29-2007, 06:00 PM

My comments have nothing to do with the graphics. Read them again. All of them were directed at the "offense anytime" approach to the EX series gameplay, and not their graphics.Sorry. What with all the fourth trimester abortions who insist on bringing up EX in every single post they make, I figured you were joining the chorus.

By the same token, though, couldn't you just as easily refer to a defensively oriented game as just another CvS2? I think a lot of people are taking Ono's comments about a more "offensive" game a little too literally when they assume that he's just going to deliver a game that requires you to mindlessly slug it out in every match. Time will tell, but his talk of revisiting the general feel of ST has given me some confidence that the game will be permissive to multiple play styles.

Sano

12-29-2007, 06:08 PM

link to pic

Sure. Ingrid by Omar Dogan -

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/NYCON3A.jpg

The rest of the sketches I've gotten from Udon over the last 2 years. Ryu by Alvin Lee, Chun-Li, Saya(Final boss of Namco x Capcom), Blair(SF EX) from Omar Dogan and Mukuro AKA Kenji (Warzard AKA Red Earth and CFJ/E) by Joe Ng. Yeah after Ryu and Chun-Li (my two favorite SF characters) I only ask for rare characters to give them a break from drawing Morrigan for the billionth time lol! If you see them at cons, they'll draw anyone for you so long as you provide reference! :lovin:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/NYCON1A.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/NYCON2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/AM01.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/AM02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/futaenokiwami/AM03.jpg

Oh and, um, yeah really liking how SF4 is shaping up. Wow, another on topic post from sano. :rofl:

Kataklysmic

12-29-2007, 06:23 PM

Get hit --> meter. In that sense, yes, it is comparable to K-groove, and we really don't have much beyond that other than a mixture of reportage from clueless journalists and speculation by a forum full of high-level Theory Fighter 4 players.

Well, you can't really make use of a single move that deals a shitload of damage like K-Groove supers. Just one invincible Save that does a special's worth of damage and can be canceled. We still don't know what these Saves are going to look like for each character. For all we know, they could be like the Dust attacks in GG. And Ono said the timing on cancels would be strict, so EX juggling isn't something a scrub can exploit right away.

erikstanton

12-29-2007, 06:38 PM

well, the fat one seems like an idiot. i dont know if im missing something, but the skinny one with the quagmire jaws said you charge it more to use more revenge units, which makes the unblockable (3 bars).

then the fat guy tells me unblockble(3?), dash cancel ex hadou(1), dash cancel ex shoryu(1), dash cancel shoryu.

thats 5, but he says you have 1 left still.

KING

12-29-2007, 06:43 PM

erikstanton

12-29-2007, 06:53 PM

yeah thats what i was thinking too before i watched the video, but then the guy makes it seem like you have to use more than 1 for it to be unblockable.

12-29-2007, 07:29 PM

According to the EGM article, the Saving move (3/4 meter) is unblockable, not the regular 1/4 meter one.

While that's true, if an offensive move allows you to turn the tables with a safe guess then it's only marginally different from an alpha counter. What worries me even more, though, is that if a player has Revenge bar built up and already has the advantage, they have incredibly powerful offensive options that just give the other guy more incentive to turtle.

If the player with the disadvantage "blows his load" to get even, the other player will probably have enough revenge meter to probably finish the match, so it gives the player with a disadvantage a reason to conserve his meter for use at the right moment. And that gives the player with the advantage to continue on a rush down strat.

This is all assuming that EX moves take off a significant portion of health.
...in which case, it will be very difficult for him to turtle. :wonder:

did you think about that vein?

the advantage would go to the aggressor...which, in essence, is what Ono wanted in the first place.
Here is the problem-
If the person with full meter has better offensive/defensive options, defense is the smarter play, and so they don't have to go anywhere. Like in 3S, when SA2 Chun gets meter. She is not known for her infamous rushdown.

So, you have a situation where the attacker can take his time and is in no hurry to attack and can afford to sit on his meter, and the other guy doesn't want to rush in and get hit, since the opponent will ostensibly keep his meter for the rest of the round.

~~

Now, there are a million actual factors which will change how the game actually plays- how fast the Revenge meter builds, if you start the round with full meter like in A3, if it drains like K-Groove, etc etc. Not to mention how good the EX moves/cancels for any given character will be in their match vs whoever.

Moreover, this isn't 3rd Strike, we don't know what overall offense/defense will be like. If you're going to spend the whole match trying to get in on Dhalsim, your hypothetical EX cancel combo may be something like trying to land T.Hawk's 720 in ST or land a crossup into TOD.

I do see potential balance problems, but frankly the super system in every fighting game causes balance problems, so I feel like it could go either way.

elvis_a_presley

12-29-2007, 10:53 PM

Sorry. What with all the fourth trimester abortions who insist on bringing up EX in every single post they make, I figured you were joining the chorus.
Totally understandable. There will be those who like this to EX for all the wrong reasons by virtue of it's 3D nature.

By the same token, though, couldn't you just as easily refer to a defensively oriented game as just another CvS2? I think a lot of people are taking Ono's comments about a more "offensive" game a little too literally when they assume that he's just going to deliver a game that requires you to mindlessly slug it out in every match. Time will tell, but his talk of revisiting the general feel of ST has given me some confidence that the game will be permissive to multiple play styles.
Honestly, I hope you're right. I hate to judge things prematurely, and given that release is close to a year away, that's exactly what I'm doing. I'll hold off all further opinions for now, but I do hope this game becomes something playable. I find no joy in games that are heavily offensively biased (that includes anything from Arc System Works), and while that is the current market trend, I hope this game avoids that fate.

KomboKaze

12-30-2007, 09:18 AM

What happened....You know what. im bout to complain directly to the capcom site itself.Ryu stance makes him look remedial, and ken taunt looks like he grabbin for something I dont want to say.

debs

12-30-2007, 09:23 AM

the game kinda reminds me of rival schools/project justice...the background seems powerstonish...

as far as the LOOK of the game, i'm not feeling it at all. this so called westernized art is garbage. ryu looks like a white army dude...ken looks crazy. their arms and legs look OD brolic. it kinda reminds me of old psx graphics/n64 graphics when they had two large polygons connected to make arms...

the hits sound snkish. the gameplay looks ok though, although i'm iffy on all the offensive options. hopefully it'll work out. i'm with kombo though, why are chun li's legs on ken and ryu?

why did we rush into 3d again? i feel like 2d was never perfected and the industry just rushed into 3d just because...
IMO, sfIV should look like an anime. oh well. at least we're talking about a sfIV...and it is early. they have time to improve everything.

Keits

12-30-2007, 09:55 AM

2d is far more expensive and difficult than 3d. Thats why this is 3d.

Shin00bi

12-30-2007, 12:21 PM

Dencore

12-30-2007, 01:01 PM

2d is far more expensive and difficult than 3d. Thats why this is 3d.

Well they did SFHDIIRemix which is basically the amount of work they'd need to do for a new Street Fighter (in terms of sprites). Yes Remix has half the frames a SFIV would, but it also has twice the amount of characters a SFIV would.

Henaki

12-30-2007, 01:07 PM

Well they did SFHDIIRemix which is basically the amount of work they'd need to do for a new Street Fighter (in terms of sprites). Yes Remix has half the frames a SFIV would, but it also has twice the amount of characters a SFIV would.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how do you know that?

Oh right you don't, not to mention you have no idea how RAM works!

Carry on then.
2d is far more expensive and difficult than 3d. Thats why this is 3d.

Actually, this is false, the problem is the sale do not justify the cost of a 2d game on modern hardware (because there is a very niche market for it). It's still cheaper to make a 2d fighter assuming you were to go with say, GGish graphics, it's just going to sell way, way, less. Overall, 3D will probably cost more, but on a per person salary, 3d is actually cheaper (but it requires more people and you can't outsource any non keyframe animation to korea).

Havoc

12-30-2007, 01:07 PM

Are you serious?

You think SFIV is gonna have 8 characters?

Keits

12-30-2007, 01:09 PM

Kataklysmic

12-30-2007, 01:24 PM

I may have come off as a bit trolloc. I want to apologize for that.

To be completely honest, I'm shallow enough to personally boycott the game because it's not in 2D.

I know there are plenty of others that were just as upset by the 3d-ness of it. I think that this will mark the end of SF from some fans perspective. I don't mean it won't sell well, and that SF won't continue on, but it reminds me of Megaman/Rockman X, when it finally took the 3d plunge. It still plays exactly the same, but I never play Megaman X8 as much I play X1-6, because it doesn't have the soul of a timeless 2d game.

This doesn't make the future grim for me. I think this SFIV being made with 3d, will inspire other developers and aspiring game developers to make 2d-fighters, and even side-scrollers perhaps as time goes on.

I'm sucker for those types of games because I grew up with them. They can look really beautiful too with these next-gen systems.

Supporters of Sfiv... are you biting the bullet with the graphical choices, or do you actually prefer 3d-models over 2d?

When you put it that way, then yes, I am biting the bullet. But even though I prefer sprites, I actually like the 3D models.

There's still some ground to cover with sprite-based fighting games as no developer has fully incorporated all the best qualities that are scattered across various titles. Capcom hit the mark in animation and sprite detail with SF3. Arc nailed high-res sprites with GG, which I still think is highly overrated. They each do well in one or more areas, but they falter in others.

There's only one game I've seen in existence that really captures the optimal breathtaking look of a 2D game, and it's Odin Sphere. This has it all: high-res characters that animate with unparalled liveliness, backgrounds that are designed beautifully yet never compete with the action, and layers upon layers of texture and detail. None of this ever becomes compromised with scaling or the complementary 3D effects; the slowdown is the only inherent problem, but given the time constraints, it was unavoidable. The effort put into this game is so obvious, it makes you wonder how any company could survive this.

Still, for all the praise that it got, Odin Sphere is not a best-selling game. And this is an action-RPG. Can you really imagine Capcom devoting so much in making a 2D SF with a shorter budget and production time? And in an era where corporations like Sony spurn 2D games because of their limited potential?

I was open to the possibility of a cel-shaded SF and I"ve often said that it's better they do it in that fashion than to use fully rendered (and stale) 3D models in the vein of Tekken. I know they can execute this well having seen Viewtiful Joe and Okami. I can't say I'm let down by what I've seen at this point. Ryu and Ken are just above halfway finished, so only time will tell how good they, and the rest of the cast, will look.

Kataklysmic

12-30-2007, 01:30 PM

Well they did SFHDIIRemix which is basically the amount of work they'd need to do for a new Street Fighter (in terms of sprites). Yes Remix has half the frames a SFIV would, but it also has twice the amount of characters a SFIV would.

So you're saying that tracing and photoshopping is as big a task as animating brand new sprites? Ooooh, I guess I'm set for a new career.

DoTheMove

12-30-2007, 01:37 PM

i think the unblockable is 1/combo starter.
Invincible saving move = 1 stock.
EX Moves = 1 stock.
Charged Unblockable = 3 stock.

goodm0urning

12-30-2007, 01:56 PM

why did we rush into 3d again? i feel like 2d was never perfected and the industry just rushed into 3d just because...
IMO, sfIV should look like an anime. oh well. at least we're talking about a sfIV...and it is early. they have time to improve everything.Since when is a 10 year wait rushing into anything?

As for perfecting 2D, Capcom pretty much did it with SFIII. Barring the fact that increasingly powerful hardware will ALWAYS inevitably make for more polished and colorful graphics, Capcom really pulled out all the stops. They hit the ceiling with smooth, detailed 2D animation and now they're going in a new direction.

ramberk

12-30-2007, 01:56 PM

Yo, doesn't the S, N and K grooves basically solve the problem of "sitting on meter?" I don't think the basic high level game play of 3S would have been much different if the game had an N-groove style meter system but it certainly would have made the game more interesting.

X-Static

12-30-2007, 02:49 PM

Supporters of Sfiv... are you biting the bullet with the graphical choices, or do you actually prefer 3d-models over 2d?

Nah, I'm not biting the bullet. The gameplay looks 2D, and the graphics are good for a game in progress. They still have loads of time to polish. It's a new SF game being made by someone very passionate. I am staying optimistic until the game comes out.

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 03:36 PM

I may have come off as a bit trolloc. I want to apologize for that.

To be completely honest, I'm shallow enough to personally boycott the game because it's not in 2D.

I know there are plenty of others that were just as upset by the 3d-ness of it. I think that this will mark the end of SF from some fans perspective. I don't mean it won't sell well, and that SF won't continue on, but it reminds me of Megaman/Rockman X, when it finally took the 3d plunge. It still plays exactly the same, but I never play Megaman X8 as much I play X1-6, because it doesn't have the soul of a timeless 2d game.

This doesn't make the future grim for me. I think this SFIV being made with 3d, will inspire other developers and aspiring game developers to make 2d-fighters, and even side-scrollers perhaps as time goes on.

I'm sucker for those types of games because I grew up with them. They can look really beautiful too with these next-gen systems.

Supporters of Sfiv... are you biting the bullet with the graphical choices, or do you actually prefer 3d-models over 2d?

yes
im biting the bullet
im hoping to like this game despite it having 3d graphics (which i generally find ugly), but i understand why they chose 3d, and I wasnt expecting a sprite based game
the gameplay looks 2d in the video, which is somewhat releiving
but some of the animations dont have the same snap (character) to them that they seem to have in the 2d aesthetic (alot of the animations in that 1up interview looked a bit bland to me).
the extra little touches such as the exagerrated facail expressions aare great imo, since they seem to make the 3d models somewhat less puppet-like to me, and the more character/emotion they impart into these 3d pupetts the better for the overall aesthetic. I always liked the exaggerated expressions and postures on the sprites.
I would just like to see some of the new 3d animations a bit 'snapppier' if that makes sense. Animations done with 3d models tend to go for more realistics motions than the exaggerated posturing used in sprite-based work to give the motion effects. maybe that is what i am seeig here, i dont really know.
anyway; this is just personal preference
and it doest necessarily imapct the gamplay; i remain optimistic (how2ever I am still much more excited about SF2HDremix than this game).
anyway cant wait to see more character models/animation

peace

HuStLeMaN17

12-30-2007, 03:37 PM

This game is --2.5 D-- not true 3D!

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 03:38 PM

im talking about the graphics (which are def rendered in 3d)

also: im not entirely sure what 2.5D is
peopple on this site seem to be giving different definitions of 2.5D every time i turn around

Havoc

12-30-2007, 03:50 PM

2.5d is a made-up term, so you're gonna get a lot of different definitions.

It basically means the game runs in 2 dimensions (for the most part... technically, ALL SF games incorporate a third dimension in some way), but it features polygonal graphics, which are usually used in 3D games.

Simple.

HuStLeMaN17

12-30-2007, 03:54 PM

2.5D is a fixed POV on a strict 2D plane with a hint of 3D backrounds.

goodm0urning

12-30-2007, 03:58 PM

To make it dead simple: "2.5D" means 2D gameplay with 3D graphics.

With a few provisos and exceptions, of course.

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 04:01 PM

so what you guys are saying is that games like tekken, etc are not considered 2.5d games, they are in fact games with a 3d fighting mechanic
correct?
because i may be inclined to consider them 2.5D also

HuStLeMaN17

12-30-2007, 04:06 PM

One of the main reasons Tekken is considered 3D is because you can "SideStep"

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 04:19 PM

but when you sidestep the 2d plane just gets reset
it does seem to take place primarily on a 2d plane wth one player continually facing the other as opposed to something like power stone.
it seems yuo have the effective equivalents of siddesteps in 2d games (moves with invincibility), the only difference seems aesthetics and minimal impact to gameplay, no? (i dont play much 3d fighters so i could be wrong)

not intentionally trying to dereail by being arguementative; so if this is the language you guys use i will adopt
so 2.5D is used strictly for shit like sammy's battle fantasia or killer instinct or primal rage? *edit: and I guess mortal kobat 1-3 would fit this definiton also, unless i am misunderstanding
again; im just trying to get clarification on 2.5D
thanks

12-30-2007, 04:23 PM

2.5 is a retarded term.

Havoc

12-30-2007, 04:34 PM

Basically... 2.5D means nothing. It's a made-up term that fails under any scrutiny.

goodm0urning

12-30-2007, 04:51 PM

but when you sidestep the 2d plane just gets reset
it does seem to take place primarily on a 2d plane wth one player continually facing the other as opposed to something like power stone.
it seems yuo have the effective equivalents of siddesteps in 2d games (moves with invincibility), the only difference seems aesthetics and minimal impact to gameplay, no? (i dont play much 3d fighters so i could be wrong)Think more along the lines of Smash Bros.

not intentionally trying to dereail by being arguementative; so if this is the language you guys use i will adopt
so 2.5D is used strictly for shit like sammy's battle fantasia or killer instinct or primal rage? *edit: and I guess mortal kobat 1-3 would fit this definiton also, unless i am misunderstanding
again; im just trying to get clarification on 2.5D
thanksAll of those games use 2D rendered graphics.

Basically... 2.5D means nothing. It's a made-up term that fails under any scrutiny.All terms are made up. And any heuristic will fall apart if you pick at it enough.

Sasmasta

12-30-2007, 04:52 PM

2.5d is a made-up term, so you're gonna get a lot of different definitions.
Truth. The evidence is in the pudding! [i.e. the posts above this one]

polarity

12-30-2007, 05:12 PM

battle fantasia doesnt use 2d rendered graphics

goodm0urning

12-30-2007, 05:30 PM

battle fantasia doesnt use 2d rendered graphicsI overlooked it. But the main thrust of the question appears to be if 2D-rendered games count as long as the sprites are designed to resemble true 3D graphics (for instance, MK's digitized sprites), and the answer is no.

KING

12-30-2007, 06:27 PM

i just checked 1up's website, and SF IV's scheduled arcade release is 6/15/08? wtf?

i wonder if that's just a tentative release date.

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 06:50 PM

Think more along the lines of Smash Bros.
.
unfortunately i never plyed this game so im not sure what you mean

I overlooked it. But the main thrust of the question appears to be if 2D-rendered games count as long as the sprites are designed to resemble true 3D graphics (for instance, MK's digitized sprites), and the answer is no.
yes
i assumed battle fantaisa worked the same way
i figured it was just 'pictures' of the 3d renderings inserted into a 2d engine, i guess i assumed that becuase the camera never seems to deviate ever (even in win poses/intros/etc..) and they seem to have the GG-esque hit sparks and shit (which i guess doesnt reaqlly mean anything)
i guess I am wrong on that assumption though

however, even though my assumption was wrong it is such an oddly subtle defintion since the differences between it being actually 3d rendered or merely representations of 3d renderings is imposible to notice upon observation, correct? so you should be able to undestand why i would group it in the same aesthetic category as the clayfighters and such

Dencore

12-30-2007, 07:30 PM

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how do you know that?

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Street_Fighter_II_Turbo_HD_Remix#Characters)

"
Oh right you don't,

There are a little over 700 sprites for each character in SF II Turbo, in Third Strike there are on average 1,200. So one could say that a new Street Fighter IV. So don't jump to conclusions.

not to mention you have no idea how RAM works!

I'm talking about sprite coloring.

So you're saying that tracing and photoshopping is as big a task as animating brand new sprites? Ooooh, I guess I'm set for a new career.

I was referring strictly on coloring sprites. Most of the work on creating sprites is designing them. Animating obviously wouldn't be a problem since Japan has tons of 2D animators. Between coloring sprites it's pretty much the same thing. Not to mention they do have to reanimate some of it.

Wrong. :looney:

How? It's nearly the same amount of effort between the two in terms of coloring the sprites.

goodm0urning

12-30-2007, 08:01 PM

however, even though my assumption was wrong it is such an oddly subtle defintion since the differences between it being actually 3d rendered or merely representations of 3d renderings is imposible to notice upon observation, correct? so you should be able to undestand why i would group it in the same aesthetic category as the clayfighters and suchIt might be difficult sometimes if you're just eyeballing it, since there are games that blur the line visually, but the difference is that true 3D graphics utilize polygonal models rather than sprite animation.

i wonder if that's just a tentative release date.I would guess that it's more of an outright shot in the dark.

hubcapsignstop

12-30-2007, 10:20 PM

well
im convinced im not explaining my position well enough because i dont think you understand what i was trying to get at
but it doesnt matter
i thikn i have a better understanding of what the term '2.5D' refers to

peace

Henaki

12-31-2007, 12:09 AM

LINK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Street_Fighter_II_Turbo_HD_Remix#Characters)

There are a little over 700 sprites for each character in SF II Turbo, in Third Strike there are on average 1,200. So one could say that a new Street Fighter IV. So don't jump to conclusions.

I'm talking about sprite coloring.

I was referring strictly on coloring sprites. Most of the work on creating sprites is designing them. Animating obviously wouldn't be a problem since Japan has tons of 2D animators. Between coloring sprites it's pretty much the same thing. Not to mention they do have to reanimate some of it.

How? It's nearly the same amount of effort between the two in terms of coloring the sprites.
Ahahahahahahahahahaha you're so fucking stupid. Yes thank you for pointing out why you were right with COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT SUBJECTS.

Dencore

12-31-2007, 12:30 AM

Ahahahahahahahahahaha you're so fucking stupid. Yes thank you for pointing out why you were right with COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT SUBJECTS.

The maturity some show in this thread is ridiculous.

Here's my original post.

Well they did SFHDIIRemix which is basically the amount of work they'd need to do for a new Street Fighter (in terms of sprites). Yes Remix has half the frames a SFIV would, but it also has twice the amount of characters a SFIV would.

And this is your original response (the one I saw).

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh how do you know that?

Carry on then.

Which seemed like it referred to my comment which was based on sprite editing.

So what was the point of acting like a child when it was you who got lost in the topic I created at hand?

I mean how could I be irrelevant to the subject if I was the one who created the subject in the first place?

woof

12-31-2007, 01:45 AM

Dencore Owns

Bob Sagat

12-31-2007, 02:01 AM

I was referring strictly on coloring sprites. Most of the work on creating sprites is designing them. Animating obviously wouldn't be a problem since Japan has tons of 2D animators. Between coloring sprites it's pretty much the same thing. Not to mention they do have to reanimate some of it.

I'm not sure what this entire argument is about right now, but I just wanted to comment on this particular post.
I'm actually an animator and I can tell you that animation always takes longer than any other process, be it design, colouring or whatever. Or at least it should, if you want it to look good. Not only that, but think about it this way: everything that's done on a movie or videogame has to be approved by a director. Once the design is approved, it is pretty much approved forever, but when animation starts, every single action has to go through an approving stage, so it's not just about the amount of frames being drawn, there's also a ton of corrections to be made (provided you have the time and money of course)
Also, Japan might have enough 2D animators to do the job, but they all gotta be willing to do it*, and they all have to be paid...

*Not everyone wants to work on videogames and not every animator can cope with the weird restrictions videogames put on your animation(in terms of amount of frames versus required action). You could argue that people who need the money will jump at any opportunity, and that's true, but that would only occur if there was a dry spell in the industry, or if someone just wasn't good enough, so he/she would probably not get hired anyway...

This is not meant as an attack or something, just some FYI.:wgrin:

Master Chibi

12-31-2007, 02:01 AM

Good fuckin fuck lord

why is this forum full of fuckin MORONIC arguements

seriously, should they really be catering to us at this point

i wouldn't

Keits

12-31-2007, 07:31 AM

Den, he was laughing at your comment about how many characters 4 has. Obviously, how would you know that 4 has half the characters that HDRemix does?

You seriously have no ground in this discussion, and your reply was full of totally irrelevant information.

SH!T

12-31-2007, 09:20 AM

check 1up it has footage of it playing....looks.....meh

AaronS

12-31-2007, 09:40 AM

Yeah....

But it is still in early development, so there's no reason to get all worked up.

I'm a little skeptical about the replacing of parries though :/

goodm0urning

12-31-2007, 09:55 AM

I'm a little skeptical about the replacing of parries though :/Well, I realize that parries are such an integral part of the series that no SF game has ever survived without them, but I'm going to have to trust Capcom on this one.

AlphaDragoon

12-31-2007, 10:52 AM

Good fuckin fuck lord

why is this forum full of fuckin MORONIC arguements

seriously, should they really be catering to us at this point

i wouldn't

No Chibi, they shouldn't. People like this (the whiners) is why SF4 took ten years to get made.

Whereas if they make the game for Average Joe who plays Madden and it happens to be deep, Mr. Hardcore it has to be 2D with sprites still gets his competitive game and a sequel has a better chance of appearing due to mainstream play. I think Ono's on to something.

Lonewolf_Fenrir

12-31-2007, 11:21 AM

Well, I realize that parries are such an integral part of the series that no SF game has ever survived without them, but I'm going to have to trust Capcom on this one.

Wtf ?
There are no parries in any SF game but IIIs.
Seriously, the vids look great, can't wait to play it and "feel" it for myself, see if it's truely sf style gameplay :cantwait:

AKUMA2000

12-31-2007, 11:34 AM

i just checked 1up's website, and SF IV's scheduled arcade release is 6/15/08? wtf?

i wonder if that's just a tentative release date.

They must know something we don't......

Dencore

12-31-2007, 12:08 PM

Den, he was laughing at your comment about how many characters 4 has. Obviously, how would you know that 4 has half the characters that HDRemix does?

SF II had 8 characters and SFIII had 11 originally.

So I can assume that SFIV would have 8-11 characters.

EDIT - It seems I forgot about boss characters. Well that would total to 11 (I was 2 characters off go figure, and that was because I forgot to count the bosses). So I can assume that SFIV would be 11 characters as the previous ones.

You seriously have no ground in this discussion, and your reply was full of totally irrelevant information.

I stated that I thought he was referring to the amount of sprite design would be needed to go into 8-11 characters. I wasn't aware he was referring to how many characters a SFIV would have.
As for the character roster for an SFIV, I got those numbers from the amount of characters both World Warrior and New Generation started out with. They both have around 11, so it would only make sense for IV to have around those amount of characters. Not to mention if it was going to be in 2D, it probably wouldn't have tried to capture the audience as much as the real SFIV is (due to it not going full way to appeal to the mass market). It really isn't hard to comprehend where I'm getting the evidence for strong assumptions of this.

He could've at least told me that I mis-understood him instead of just laughing like some whiny pre-teen that I thought he was referring to something else in that post (which is why I made those remarks to him).

I'm not sure what this entire argument is about right now, but I just wanted to comment on this particular post.
I'm actually an animator and I can tell you that animation always takes longer than any other process, be it design, colouring or whatever. Or at least it should, if you want it to look good. Not only that, but think about it this way: everything that's done on a movie or videogame has to be approved by a director. Once the design is approved, it is pretty much approved forever, but when animation starts, every single action has to go through an approving stage, so it's not just about the amount of frames being drawn, there's also a ton of corrections to be made (provided you have the time and money of course)
Also, Japan might have enough 2D animators to do the job, but they all gotta be willing to do it*, and they all have to be paid...

*Not everyone wants to work on videogames and not every animator can cope with the weird restrictions videogames put on your animation(in terms of amount of frames versus required action). You could argue that people who need the money will jump at any opportunity, and that's true, but that would only occur if there was a dry spell in the industry, or if someone just wasn't good enough, so he/she would probably not get hired anyway...

This is not meant as an attack or something, just some FYI.:wgrin:

I'm a 2D animator as well (actually pursuing it as a career). I am aware animation takes far longer, but I was referring to the ardous task of sprite coloring since countless people have said in this forum that finding sprite artists capable of making a SFIV would be too much to bare. Re-reading it I guess it was my own fault for mis-wording my post. Well let's just let this conversation die before it turns into a

I am aware of your last paragraph but as said before finding 2D animators in Japan isn't too hard of a task especially with the anime industry paying them next to dust to do the animating.

Bob Sagat

12-31-2007, 12:11 PM

SF II had 8 characters and SFIII had 11 originally.

So I can assume that SFIV would have 8-11 characters.

That's only counting playable characters though...

Dencore

12-31-2007, 12:13 PM

That's only counting playable characters though...

I know I already edited my post. But thanks for pointing it out though.

AlphaDragoon

12-31-2007, 01:02 PM

Wtf ?
There are no parries in any SF game but IIIs.
Seriously, the vids look great, can't wait to play it and "feel" it for myself, see if it's truely sf style gameplay :cantwait:

He was being a smartass towards that guy that said he's skeptical because there aren't any parries. :rofl:

rod_furlong

12-31-2007, 04:53 PM

hey guys - just wanted to let you know that we posted part one of our five part video interview with SF4 Producer Yoshinori Ono (new segments coming each day for the rest of the week).

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16823

This one mostly deals with what it took to get the project OK'd at Capcom. Some of the upcoming ones get more juicy...

Kimosabae

12-31-2007, 11:06 PM

12-31-2007, 11:22 PM

If I had to guess, I'd say he was Rod Furlong.

Which means he's probably a furry.

rod_furlong

01-01-2008, 05:02 AM

Sure, my name's Demian, I run the video side of 1up.com. Our second clip is up:

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16819

CptMunta

01-01-2008, 05:39 AM

Sure, my name's Demian, I run the video side of 1up.com. Our second clip is up:

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16819

Can someone please You-Tube these clips. They only ever seem to play for me in stuttervision on gamevideos :sad:

Sasmasta

01-01-2008, 06:03 AM

^Same here.

fallot

01-01-2008, 07:22 AM

The first one was up on youtube hours ago: Here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7VE9BDgzSRs)

Yoshiniro Ono is a really excitable guy.

Captain Ryu

01-01-2008, 08:09 AM

Heres another one. They mostly just talk about chracters and story in this one.

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/16819

Never mind, it was already posted above. My bad.

Jav1ts

01-01-2008, 01:35 PM

Hey rod_furlong since you work for GameVideos and 1up you should let them know about this so they can ask the producers to do this. everyone, MORE people need to post on Capcom and on here about GGPO, support the technology (and those who created it) not some rip off if you want LAGLESS ONLINE PLAY!!!! Street Fighter 4 ONLINE!!!!!!!

Shinto

01-01-2008, 01:54 PM

Sure, my name's Demian, I run the video side of 1up.com. Our second clip is up:

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16819

Good lookin.

Sano

01-01-2008, 04:41 PM

Ono is the man! That is all! :clap:

rook

01-01-2008, 07:34 PM

I find it slightly depressing that they keep showing us HSF2 footage whenever the talk mentions ST.
It's like they don't know the difference.

Embryo

01-02-2008, 12:48 AM

probably because our eyes dont bleed looking at SFEX4 screens. oh speaking of which we should really merge the SF4 section with EX thread in the general fighter section.

JBGolden

01-02-2008, 01:16 AM

Damn, dude. Now you're just being a twat.

MiLky

01-02-2008, 02:08 AM

Damn, dude. Now you're just being a twat.

Wow, you JUST came to that conclusion?

Anyway, I hope Ono gets everything right, like he wants to. Boy bands make a comeback every few years and I can never understand why, so why not SF.

Gutter Trash

01-02-2008, 02:48 AM

the more I hear Ono talk about returning characters and making fans of the original 12 happy, the more confident I get about believing that Bison (Dictator) lives!

I loved the return to normal size design of Bison in CVS, they figured that obese Alpha Bison to be too stalky and made him return to normal sized again in CVS with a kick as sprite job.

rod_furlong

01-02-2008, 03:25 AM

Henaki

01-02-2008, 09:22 AM

and here's the third, about the choice to stick with 2D gameplay but with 3D stages...

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16820

I know we have more than our share of technical problems, but I'd appreciate it if you guys don't youtube these, we worked really hard to put these together and we like to get the hits for that hard work.

Thanks man, keep up the good... whatever you do at gamevideos!

And it's going to be put on youtube one way or the other, you're only delaying the inevitable by a day, sadly.

shinblanka

01-02-2008, 11:15 AM

Henaki

01-02-2008, 11:44 AM

FreshOJ

01-02-2008, 11:58 AM

man that game looks hot, but I don't like how they flip everytime they jump. Looks like they are doing akuma's demon flip. That can be a huge problem if akuma is in this game. You won't beable to tell what attack is coming out. I usually react to the different jump animation to punish that move. Now it will be to hard to tell differ between a jump and a demonflip. The game is 2% done and it's already better than EX ever was. It kinda moves like ex from what i can see right now. Hopefully that will be corrected in later vids. I can't wait to see more characters fighting in a demo.

Well...considering they've been flipping since SF1...I can't really see a problem there. Besides, when Akuma does the Demon Flip, he literally curls up into a ball and flips many many times...just like Guy does with his Bushin Leap....or Cammy with her Hooligan Roll. The animation is still plenty different. It'll be alright.

I'm still concerned about that Revenge system, though. In Capcom-Unity's SF4 forum, I posted in the Gameplay Suggestion Thread about that concern as it relates to something else...taunting. What if taunts gave the opponent Revenge meter, while the Revenge meter would constantly drain out and, upon getting full, would only stay full for a limited time? I could see *some* strategic advantage to that, but any system that inherently rewards bad gameplay is already headed down the road of bad gameplay. I really hope the experts playtest the Revenge system to every end possible.

Embryo

01-02-2008, 10:38 PM

AlphaDragoon

01-02-2008, 10:54 PM

You know Ono seems to have some idea of what he's doing but its really hard to respect the guy at the sametime considering he is responsible for CFJ. It reminds me a bit of Uwe Boll in that he doesn't sound to bad in interviews but his work obviously speaks for itself.

If you actually read the interview you'd know that Ono was basically handed the crapfest that was CFJ halfway through and told to make it all work.

Seriously, quit the damn trolling.

Captain Ryu

01-03-2008, 07:49 AM

I liked cfe.

chunbelievable

01-03-2008, 08:58 AM

OK,

there are 1600 replies to this topic so in the event this stuff was already covered forgive me for not being caught up on all 1600.

That being said, has the fact that the EGM interview with Ono happened back in September been discussed? I would interpret that as they gathered all of the information that they are releasing now way back then. Considering all the video interviews being released this week seem to be synonomous with the EGM article that conclusion is not exactly a stretch. Meaning of course that the game could be well beyond it's official 2% status that is was almost 4 months ago.

Also, Ken did two different supers, shinryuken and shoryureppa, which once again may have been discussed but could also open a world of debate an discussion on how the supers system may indeed work. Is it multiple supers like alpha or a super select like 3? Which do players prefer?

Finally I personally wonder what the dash system may mean for charge characters. I don't think dashing for charge characters is problematic considering Nash has one in A3 and a bunch of characters have it in 3S. My query is more how the Saving system would work for dash cancels into EX specials. Of course this is pure speculation but it would seem to me that once in a dash cancel a charge character would no longer need to charge their special. I am sure it is functional and I can't have a final verdict on the system until I actually play it, but that being said, no charge specials in a system combo were attributes shared in Custom Combos. That's something I will have to pay attention to once the game is released. I am not saying that I believe Revenge Combos are Custom Combos, merely that there is a relationship that deserves inspection.

chunbelievable

01-03-2008, 09:43 AM

Gamevideos has a new movie up now BTW. 4th of the 5.

gozulin

01-03-2008, 10:09 AM

Oh 1up, how I love thee. If I was stuck with IGN and gamespot, I'd probably just switch from gaming to killing cheerleaders. Now, if you could just fix the shitty streaming in gamevideos, it'd be swell.

fallot

01-03-2008, 10:26 AM

Gamevideos has a new movie up now BTW. 4th of the 5.

And how I'd love to watch it. But Gamevideos is Gamevideos :(

Edit: Going with downloads.

chunbelievable

01-03-2008, 10:46 AM

They also have for download the gameplay edited down and without all the talk which is kind of nice. After watching the animation frame by frame there are some pretty cool things that may have been over looked.

For instance, on really meaty hits, the ink splatter from the teaser trailer is in the hit explosions. It kind of shoots out of the character's back as they are being pummelled. There are some pretty cool motion blur techniques going on as well. Something worth checking out. Plus kens severe crouching dash into what I think is his ultra dp, seriously cool sequence. He gets crazy low with his head forward and arms up behind him getting momentum to hit, sweet.

gozulin

01-03-2008, 11:12 AM

And how I'd love to watch it. But Gamevideos is Gamevideos :(

Now, now, let's not be retarded. The streaming might suck but you can download the full high quality videos with NO HASSLE in wmv or mov format using your favorite download manager (i recommend free download manager).

Adam Warlock

01-03-2008, 11:35 AM

I'm not a big fan of prejudging, but I really don't like the fact that ryu's mouth looks like it's trying Sent's crouching fierce when he gets hit.

DevilJin 01

01-03-2008, 11:38 AM

I'm not a big fan of prejudging, but I really don't like the fact that ryu's mouth looks like it's trying Sent's crouching fierce when he gets hit.

I like it. Reminds me of Blanka's Alpha series animations. :lol: Blanka better be in this BTW. If there's no cool ninjas in this one I'll be looking for him with the quickness.

01-03-2008, 02:03 PM

Considering all the video interviews being released this week seem to be synonomous with the EGM article that conclusion is not exactly a stretch. Meaning of course that the game could be well beyond it's official 2% status that is was almost 4 months ago.
I should certainly hope so. Also, I noticed the pics in EGM looked a bit cleaner than the video that's come out recently. So I'm guessing the EGM pics are newer and/or they're from a version of the game that wasn't in the videos. Like the framerate wasn't stable yet or there was slowdown etc etc.

Finally I personally wonder what the dash system may mean for charge characters. I don't think dashing for charge characters is problematic considering Nash has one in A3 and a bunch of characters have it in 3S. My query is more how the Saving system would work for dash cancels into EX specials. Of course this is pure speculation but it would seem to me that once in a dash cancel a charge character would no longer need to charge their special. I am sure it is functional and I can't have a final verdict on the system until I actually play it, but that being said, no charge specials in a system combo were attributes shared in Custom Combos. That's something I will have to pay attention to once the game is released. I am not saying that I believe Revenge Combos are Custom Combos, merely that there is a relationship that deserves inspection.

That is actually an interesting question. Simple answer would to have charge partioning like in the SF3 games (and Marvel to some degree), and maybe give it a wider window. Or they could change the dash command to 3P like in Marvel, which would make it a lot easier, though that's debatable as to whether or not it's a good idea. Or they could just do it for free- like you keep your charge anyway if you happen to be a charge character, like you mentioned with custom combos. Which will make Balrog ugly if he's anything like ST, but that's a different post.

Or maybe they just won't have them. It seems overly simple, but maybe the just won't be able to do it.

I would like to see a little bit of flash added to some of the dash cancels. Like Balrog's would look like a punch combination (images of the Indian guy from PunchOut with the turban float in my head), or Vega would cartwheel sideways, or M.Bison's makes him teleport on the other side of you for another hit (it would be a pain the ass to do that with charge characters, but you get what I mean). Or they could be random for the sake of variety, but with the same frame data.

~~

About the interview with Ono, I've only seen the first 2 vids plus that first big video that was released week or two ago. But it seems like he's courting the American audience a bit. He mentioned HF (made with heavy US input) as the best SF2 game, though that may be a coincidence. Maybe he ment HSF2 instead, I don't have the video with me. But he mentioned how he liked the Marvel VS games and would like to do a new one, and those were always more popular over here than in Japan. He even mentioned Muscle Bomber for the Genesis- while that's of no particular reference, he did sorta go out of his way to point out that the game was released in the states for the Genesis, and didn't refer to the game more generally or say the Mega Drive. And he mentioned the popularity of HF on Xbox Live being a huge factor.

Coincidence maybe.

Seems like a nice guy though, I do think he's a fan of SF, which means he's OK in my book.

shinblanka

01-03-2008, 02:23 PM

ryu and ken have flipped in at least 3rd strike during their regular jump dude.

Well...considering they've been flipping since SF1...I can't really see a problem there. Besides, when Akuma does the Demon Flip, he literally curls up into a ball and flips many many times...just like Guy does with his Bushin Leap....or Cammy with her Hooligan Roll. The animation is still plenty different. It'll be alright.

I'm still concerned about that Revenge system, though. In Capcom-Unity's SF4 forum, I posted in the Gameplay Suggestion Thread about that concern as it relates to something else...taunting. What if taunts gave the opponent Revenge meter, while the Revenge meter would constantly drain out and, upon getting full, would only stay full for a limited time? I could see *some* strategic advantage to that, but any system that inherently rewards bad gameplay is already headed down the road of bad gameplay. I really hope the experts playtest the Revenge system to every end possible.

Ok I understand but it does look kinda robo jumping style. I know it's only 2% done so I ain't sweating the little shit hardcore. I'm sure the next update will blow my mind. It kinda moves like ex IMO. But i've never played it so I can only judge from the few vids we have seen.:confused::wonder:

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-03-2008, 08:09 PM

If there is no parry it is Super Turbo with a SF EX face lift and wake up gets destroyed again by the meaty normals. I have already had 10 games with that tactic, Basara X:cross please..

ramza

01-03-2008, 08:19 PM

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-03-2008, 08:34 PM

it only worked in st because reversals were a bitch...new series shouldn't have parries, and it doesn't.

Yoga Fire Book states that one frame on wake up that could be covered by a meaty normal that has multiple active hit frames will stuff an uppercut cold everytime beacuse no input is allowed on that wake frame, DP is impossible.

01-03-2008, 08:47 PM

Um. Invincble reversals beat meaties in basically any SF game that has both of those things.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-03-2008, 08:58 PM

Sagatryu

01-03-2008, 09:42 PM

from what I saw of Ken, his Ultra seem to be a combo of his low dragon punch, his crazy kicks and his Shinryuken.

01-03-2008, 10:29 PM

Available frame of input and DP frame of invincible time are two different things. If this is done on you correctly the only option is to gaurd. If you do not gaurd you will be hit during your input time for the dragon.

What game are you playing, WW? I'm something like 100% sure that in every game after SSF2 that you can reversal any meaty attack with an invicible special move and it's just a matter of timing. Moreover you can reversal throw anyone who's in range (in the later SF2s if not all games with instant throws), though the timing on that is much less forgiving.

polarity

01-03-2008, 11:15 PM

If there is no parry it is Super Turbo with a SF EX face lift and wake up gets destroyed again by the meaty normals. I have already had 10 games with that tactic, Basara X:cross please..

Available frame of input and DP frame of invincible time are two different things. If this is done on you correctly the only option is to gaurd. If you do not gaurd you will be hit during your input time for the dragon.

What a surprise, someone with a SF3 avatar has absolutely no clue what he's talking about.

01-03-2008, 11:31 PM

Maybe he's talking about EX? :confused:

hubcapsignstop

01-04-2008, 12:02 AM

i love SF3
why you gotta have a SF3 av?

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 08:09 AM

WW(TaiSen), Dash, Dash Turbo, Super, Super X, Zero, Zero 2, Zero 2 Alpha, Zero 3

No input is allowed on that wake up frame, not even reversal throw input.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 08:31 AM

Watch a couple of X-Mania tournaments, I have the history on a DVD region 2 of X-Mania that came with my "Japanese Yoga Fire Book" and you will see them do this tactic over and over and over beacuse it works. Time for america to catch up. Or stay blind...

Ever seen a "Reversal Sign" come on the screen after doing a DP input and getting hit by Boxer's crouching foward? Or Chuns back+fierce in Zero? Play Basara X:cross please.

Desk

01-04-2008, 09:03 AM

^^dude, seriously, what are you talking about? In ST (for example) there is no meaty that you can't avoid with perfectly timed reversal dp. That reversal sign thing sounds like you can't do dragon punches and are doing fireballs insted.

also the whole thing will be negated in SF4 anyway because of the invincible revenge moves.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 09:51 AM

^^dude, seriously, what are you talking about? In ST (for example) there is no meaty that you can't avoid with perfectly timed reversal dp. That reversal sign thing sounds like you can't do dragon punches and are doing fireballs insted.

also the whole thing will be negated in SF4 anyway because of the invincible revenge moves.

Your right! It is a fireball beacuse when you input the foward motion it did not recieve that input. You are correct!

#7 with Heaven

01-04-2008, 10:06 AM

^^dude, seriously, what are you talking about? In ST (for example) there is no meaty that you can't avoid with perfectly timed reversal dp. That reversal sign thing sounds like you can't do dragon punches and are doing fireballs insted.I lol'ed

I have seen people THROWN out of wakeup DPs in ST. What does that tell me? That if the "meaty" IS in fact on top of them with its active hit frame(s), as they're waking up, then they will get hit out of their DP.

Shit reminds me of when someone said Urien is off the ground on the first frame of his jab version headbutt, and that you can't throw him out of it because of that. LOL. Either pay more attention in practice mode, or develop your sense of perception :lol:

...Stupid Americans (yeah I said it...Japanese mooks don't lie)

Reth

01-04-2008, 10:27 AM

New Vid talks bout online play.

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16821

ramza

01-04-2008, 10:31 AM

ultradavid was talking to me about honda having a normal in ST where only its hitbox could hit you, and it couldn't be reversaled on wakeup...take that for what its worth, I don't play the game nearly as much as him

FreshOJ

01-04-2008, 10:33 AM

WW(TaiSen), Dash, Dash Turbo, Super, Super X, Zero, Zero 2, Zero 2 Alpha, Zero 3

No input is allowed on that wake up frame, not even reversal throw input.

Check out what Graham has to say about what you do when you knockdown an opponent on the SSF2T section of the Strategy Zone.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=146240

Somehow...I think he's right and you're not...especially since what you're saying is the first time I've EVER heard anyone say that...when it wasn't said by non tournament-level players, of course. It sure hasn't been my experience.

hubcapsignstop

01-04-2008, 10:58 AM

I lol'ed

I have seen people THROWN out of wakeup DPs in ST. What does that tell me? That if the "meaty" IS in fact on top of them with its active hit frame(s), as they're waking up, then they will get hit out of their DP.

Shit reminds me of when someone said Urien is off the ground on the first frame of his jab version headbutt, and that you can't throw him out of it because of that. LOL. Either pay more attention in practice mode, or develop your sense of perception :lol:

...Stupid Americans (yeah I said it...Japanese mooks don't lie)
youre awfully condescending
yeah i've been thrown out of DPs in ST quite a bit
but i just figured they had a startup frame or two without throw invincibility, but i never seen any non-throw attack beat a DP startup in ST
even long winded meaty specails wih significant invincibilty wont hit until after the DP invincibilty is gone

#7 with Heaven

01-04-2008, 11:06 AM

:u: Well, obviously, it is rather HARD to time the meaty attack so that it's on TOP of their wakeup frame, the one frame that Saisyu was talking about where you cannot input an attack. I myself have thrown someone out of their wakeup dragon before. I think people are confusing this with what they have encountered from personal experience, in that they are mistaking ACTIVE hit frames, for what has NOT become active yet, OR has already expired, and the move is in its retract state. During either of those instances, yes, you can DP them out of their "meaty." But the Yoga Fire book specifically talks about a frame where you cannot DP, or input anything except guard, I have seen it. And if an attack's ACTIVE hit frames are overlapping that frame, you will get hit out of anything you try to do except block.

Anyway this isn't really pertaining to SF4, so let me stop.

hubcapsignstop

01-04-2008, 11:11 AM

but timing meaties really isnt that hard
are you sure this is ST?

Kamui

01-04-2008, 11:14 AM

Jab DPs in Zero don't have enough invulnerability to pass through meaty attacks, which is the only reason why Zero Chun-li's standing MP would beat that reversal on wake up (note: Chun-li doesn't have a command attack that's B + fierce in Zero. Not sure why anyone would trust information from someone that doesn't even know that). However, strong DPs will pass through meaty attacks though.

Also keep in mind that a Reversal flag comes up when doing any special attack at all in a reversal situation, so what you were seeing may be someone getting an attack they didn't want to do on wake up. Players use the same meaty attack in ST, for example, because they either know their opponent is afraid to go for a reversal, or because reversals are extremely difficult to do consistently in older SF games (WW, SSF2T, etc).

Since it came out of a Japanese book, I'm almost positive that you're reading that information incorrectly, or your mistaking it for something it's not. Double check your sources and consider that you've made a mistake. I assure you, meaty attacks can be reversed on wake up. You are incorrect.

Watch a couple of X-Mania tournaments, I have the history on a DVD region 2 of X-Mania that came with my "Japanese Yoga Fire Book" and you will see them do this tactic over and over and over beacuse it works. Time for america to catch up. Or stay blind...

Ever seen a "Reversal Sign" come on the screen after doing a DP input and getting hit by Boxer's crouching foward? Or Chuns back+fierce in Zero? Play Basara X:cross please.

Kamui

01-04-2008, 11:29 AM

None of this information makes much sense considering the tactics that are of the most value in ST, like safe jump ins, are good because they're safe to reversals. In the case of the safe jump in, which still hits an enemy if they don't perform a reversal, but recovers in enough time to allow you to block a reversal attempt, the enemy's reversal still visibly comes out. Why would any Japanese player even bother with a tactic like this when meaty moves stuff reversals outright, especially when normal attacks in ST have a massive amount of active frames. This, along with shotos passing through projectiles thrown on top of them on wake up, disproves this information.

I'm not sure what you're reading, but this is either a translation error or there's a lot more info about this in that book that you're missing. None of this information sounds correct.

:u: Well, obviously, it is rather HARD to time the meaty attack so that it's on TOP of their wakeup frame, the one frame that Saisyu was talking about where you cannot input an attack. I myself have thrown someone out of their wakeup dragon before. I think people are confusing this with what they have encountered from personal experience, in that they are mistaking ACTIVE hit frames, for what has NOT become active yet, OR has already expired, and the move is in its retract state. During either of those instances, yes, you can DP them out of their "meaty." But the Yoga Fire book specifically talks about a frame where you cannot DP, or input anything except guard, I have seen it. And if an attack's ACTIVE hit frames are overlapping that frame, you will get hit out of anything you try to do except block. Anyway this isn't really pertaining to SF4, so let me stop.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 12:03 PM

#7 with Heaven

01-04-2008, 12:14 PM

Why would any Japanese player even bother with a tactic like this when meaty moves stuff reversals outright, especially when normal attacks in ST have a massive amount of active frames. This, along with shotos passing through projectiles thrown on top of them on wake up, disproves this information.

I'm not sure what you're reading, but this is either a translation error or there's a lot more info about this in that book that you're missing. None of this information sounds correct.I don't understand. You are saying what I said, which was that it IS possible to hit someone out of a wakeup DP with a meaty normal, which is why meaty normals while someone is waking up are so good. Yet you call my information "incorrect."

WTF, this is why I don't post in the FGD/SF4 forums as it is, I'm out.

TitaniumBeast!

01-04-2008, 12:19 PM

I don't understand. You are saying what I said, which was that it IS possible to hit someone out of a wakeup DP with a meaty normal, which is why meaty normals while someone is waking up are so good. Yet you call my information "incorrect."

You misread his post, Chad. He was basically stating a tactic that Japanese players use (safe jump-ins) and then saying that IF what you have been saying about meaty normals is correct, then there would be no reason for them to do that. But yet they still do it. So he was basically using the safe-jump-in explanation to disprove your info.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 12:24 PM

We are not talking about safe jump in we are talking about wake up. But you are right beast about his response.

TitaniumBeast!

01-04-2008, 12:29 PM

I'm aware that you guys are talking about meaty normals and not safe jump-ins. Kamui's point was this: WHY would the Japanese do safe jump-ins if meaty normals worked in the way you guys are suggesting? There would be no reason to do them, you could just walk up and do a meaty normal every time. Therefore there must be some piece of information that you are missing from the explanation in your guide.

Frankly, you guys are both trolling at this point, coming into a SF4 info thread to bash the game for not having parry and telling people to play Basara X. Stop it.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 12:33 PM

Thank you Beast...

polarity

01-04-2008, 01:12 PM

I had a Japanese female friend translate it for me. the end.

Ken's Fierce DP is vaccum on start up. That means there is no start up.

It is invincible through the entire start up, it has 30 active hit frames.

You can meaty him out of that as well. You need the netural return frame before any input can be allowed.

dude, you are WRONG, and this is easily demonstrable through frame-by-frame playback...nki made a video demonstrating this which i cant find atm, but honestly the fact that top players advocate doing safe jumpins, which would be totally irrelevant if you were right, pretty much destroys your argument anyway.

btw, love how you felt it necessary to note that your japanese friend is female. nice going, champ.

and for the guy who said he's thrown someone out of a wakeup DP before, there's a single frame in shoto DPs where they are invincible to normal moves but still throwable. that doesn't have anything to do with meaty normal moves.

Havoc

01-04-2008, 01:27 PM

I'm always astounded by how little a lot of you guys know about Street Fighter. It's disgusting.

DP's don't beat meaty attacks in ST? WRONG!

Oh, and FYI, safe jump-ins are meaty attacks.

There is no single frame where reversals are impossible. That's just not true.

What is true is that the reversal window in ST is smaller than games that some of you guys are used to playing, so you guys are probably just fucking up timing. If "Reversal" popped up, but you still got beat, it's because you fucked the motion up and got a fireball, not a DP. End of story.

This whole notion is so retarded, I'm almost surprised this is coming up on SRK... almost.

In any event, the whole point is that every SF GAME EVER has ways to deal with meaty attacks, without resorting to parry. Parry is not necessary. You may love it; you may hate it, but it damn sure isn't a necessity.

DevilJin 01

01-04-2008, 01:29 PM

Lol.

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 01:41 PM

dude, you are WRONG, and this is easily demonstrable through frame-by-frame playback...nki made a video demonstrating this which i cant find atm, but honestly the fact that top players advocate doing safe jumpins, which would be totally irrelevant if you were right, pretty much destroys your argument anyway.

btw, love how you felt it necessary to note that your japanese friend is female. nice going, champ.

and for the guy who said he's thrown someone out of a wakeup DP before, there's a single frame in shoto DPs where they are invincible to normal moves but still throwable. that doesn't have anything to do with meaty normal moves.

She was fine man, a real hot one. But she is back in Osaka now. I miss that girl man. You don't what it is like to have a girl that likes the games you like, help translate stuff you always want to know and go out clubing everyweekend. It was like the most unreal fucking 14 months of my life!:looney:

TitaniumBeast!

01-04-2008, 01:44 PM

lol I gotta throw water on this one

Ayumi didn't like fighting games, she admitted that the books we have on games use terms that she wasn't familiar with, just like any fighting game community that has a lot of specific terminology. Combine this with a grasp of the English language that is good but not detailed enough to describe certain Japanese words and you have a winner.

And yeah, she loved to go clubbing, but she also had a boyfriend who was a DJ. Stop trying to play these guys Ed. =P

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 01:44 PM

Lol.

Stop laughing man...:wgrin: LOL!

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 01:47 PM

AKUMA2000

01-04-2008, 01:47 PM

New Vid talks bout online play.

http://gamevideos.com/video/id/16821

Good to hear that capcom is going all out to make online play as enjoyable as possible in SF4. :nunchuck:

TitaniumBeast!

01-04-2008, 01:49 PM

She was a great "friend".....

She was fine man, a real hot one. But she is back in Osaka now. I miss that girl man. You don't what it is like to have a girl that likes the games you like, help translate stuff you always want to know and go out clubing everyweekend. It was like the most unreal fucking 14 months of my life!:looney:

Nowhere in this paragraph do I see the word "friend". Always trying to backtrack and cover yourself. Get that shit outta here lol!

#7 with Heaven

01-04-2008, 01:51 PM

Frankly, you guys are both trolling at this pointBlake, let it go, practice what you preach. :wink:

Saisyu Kusanagi

01-04-2008, 01:54 PM

TitaniumBeast!

01-04-2008, 02:00 PM

Blake, let it go, practice what you preach. :wink:

no sir i am reversing your offense until the mods get here lol

01-04-2008, 02:29 PM

Jesus Christ.

I haven't had time to go through the last page of this thread in detail and read all of the madness, but here is the short version-

Invincible reversals beat meaty attacks in every SF game that has both reversals and meaty attacks. I don't know about SF EX, I assume it is the same.

Exceptions- you can beat wakeup DP in ST etc because it's generally not completely invulnerable like in the OG SF2 games. If you watch NKI's latest video (Volume X (http://nki.combovideos.com/)) you see a couple examples of this. Shoto DP is only 100% legit invulnerable for the first few frames, like 4/60ths of a second. ((edit: for example, Ryu's Strong DP may have 8 frame of complete invulnerability so he's completely invulnerable until he leaves the ground, vs his Jab DP which might have 4 frames of legit invulnerability plus 8 more of partial.)) This varies from game to game and depending on which shoto/which DP, but you get the idea.

After that initial period, they have partial invulnerability, which in most games (SF3 and CvS games aside) is still enough to beat most attacks clean. There is a period before you even leave the ground where in many games you can still get SPD, or attacks will trade.

Likewise, if you are invulnerable yourself, you can beat/trade/double whiff, depending on the timing. Just like you can reversal/wakeup throw in games with instant throws, if your opponent is out of range or invulnerable, it won't work. There are moves which are partially invulnerable (SF2-era Chun's lighting kick, for example), where the vulnerable part can be out of range for a DP.

The shorter version- the later your attack, the better. Conversely, the earlier your attack (ie. meaty) the more likely you will lose, if the person has thier timing right.

It makes me sad that people think meaty attacks are unbeatable. Especially since someone mentioned A3, where the reversal window is fucking huge.

:sad:

gozulin

01-04-2008, 07:50 PM

Full interview transcript (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3165230)is now up. I wonder if it's the last of the info or if there is something else in store. I'd like some new video footage but I have the impression that what little media they published is current, not from the time of the interview in Japan.

They made a joke about the chihuaha girl pretend-calling capcom and demanding the SF4 video footage in a recent 1up show. Also, Capcom has no reason not to show the most up-to-date graphics, unless they significantly underestimated the displeasure with the character models.

So, now we wait for Capcom to give out some more info.

Embryo

01-05-2008, 07:08 PM

Well hopfully by the time the new gameplay demonstration surfces they will have cleaned out the"EX"vibe a lot of peeps have been feeling. Ono doesnt assure me though, I mean the man who made CFJ is overlooking this game.

01-05-2008, 07:26 PM

Could you at least be an entertaining troll? You are like the SNK-Capcom of trolling, and this is SRK. Step your fucking game up.

Embryo

01-05-2008, 08:13 PM

Man its like this guy is a stalker or something...always around whenever I post. Anyways Ono has a lot to make for this time around, so far im not to impressed.

goodm0urning

01-06-2008, 12:06 AM

Man its like this guy is a stalker or something...always around whenever I post. Anyways Ono has a lot to make for this time around, so far im not to impressed.Believe me, nobody cares how you feel about it.

Embryo

01-06-2008, 12:36 AM

Well its not only me that feels that way so.....yeah.

Kamui

01-06-2008, 01:53 AM

Not that any of their opinions are worth anything either.

Well its not only me that feels that way so.....yeah.

*Onslaught*

01-06-2008, 05:43 AM

vapulus

01-06-2008, 03:02 PM

Well its not only me that feels that way so.....yeah.

You'll never lose that feeling regardless of what they do.

New rule. People with solid red bars of neg rep ... get out of the thread for a few days.

It's only "EX-like" because it involves 3D and there are a lot of simple minds trolling around here.

Gutter Trash

01-06-2008, 11:45 PM

are the super jumps from SF3 coming back?

If they remove parries, super jumps will be essential for fighting fireball traps.

The last thing I want to happened to SF4 is turn into a game of fireball traps.

01-07-2008, 12:59 AM

You realize most games without parries aren't all about fireball traps though.

Gutter Trash

01-07-2008, 01:05 AM

SF2 was

01-07-2008, 01:29 AM

SF2 is not the only game without parries. And on top of that the SF2 games were probably the last time they were actually good, not counting Marvel and CvS1.

polarity

01-07-2008, 07:29 AM

whats wrong with fireball traps anyway?

Tigerboi

01-07-2008, 07:54 AM

^ exactly, I don't see the problem.

SF2 was about the only game series in which fireballs really beasted in straight up street fighter games.

not counted marvel series, in which projectiles were beast.

hell, in alpha projectiles weren't really all that. in any of them.

Ever since alpha I'd say there as useful as they should be.

Nokato

01-07-2008, 08:02 AM

Well SF games for the most part--even with games/character that predominantly are used for offense, has always had zoning be at its inner core. To complain about fb traps but follow Sf seems kinda weird to me.

Tigerboi

01-07-2008, 08:39 AM

well, that's 2D fighters in general.

either the character is good because they can be fucking hard to read and kill you quickly (yun, magneto, v-akuma) or they they just lock you down and force you to defend all day (storm, sent, cable, eddie, strider, chun, ken etc.)

cheap_shot

01-07-2008, 11:01 AM

Fireball traps? Pshh... just use AB to roll......

... oh wait.

Captain Ryu

01-07-2008, 11:28 AM

polarity

01-07-2008, 11:44 AM

A2 fireballs are more poke than zoning tool though

Captain Ryu

01-07-2008, 11:50 AM

Yeah you're right. They're at least way better than fireballs in games like 3s though.

ramberk

01-07-2008, 02:06 PM

I'd say, 3S had better fireballs then A3. Didn't the chip damage and hit damage of A3 fireballs diminish the further away they were thrown? I'm guessing A3 had the weakest fireballs in all the games.

goodm0urning

01-07-2008, 02:09 PM

I'd say, 3S had better fireballs then A3. Didn't the chip damage and hit damage of A3 fireballs diminish the further away they were thrown? I'm guessing A3 had the weakest fireballs in all the games.No way. Aside from EX moves, fireballs are total useless asspiles in 3S.

ramberk

01-07-2008, 02:13 PM

Yeah but whats worse...

SFA3 fireballs can't be parried but do very little damage.
3S fireballs can be parried but do decent damage.

I use Remy exclusively and yeah, its very easy to parry fireballs but in high pressure situations, your opponent is a lot less likely to parry and more likely to eat a fireball or block it. This includes EX and regular fireballs. The problem I have with A3 is that it doesn't matter how many fireballs you make your opponent eat, they all do crap damage.

Tigerboi

01-07-2008, 02:15 PM

parried fireball= no damage. Every regular fireball had heavy start up. I parry them in situation like that all the time.

I'd say, 3S had better fireballs then A3. Didn't the chip damage and hit damage of A3 fireballs diminish the further away they were thrown? I'm guessing A3 had the weakest fireballs in all the games.

Not really. For the most part, fireballs were crap in 3S becuase of the (lol) parry.

there are SOME good ones, because they came out fast and punished alot of stuff (ryu's ex fireball)

And others we good for thier combo potential (ken and chun fireballs) and block stun (akumas air fireball).

Shin00bi

01-07-2008, 03:34 PM

I finished reading the whole interview transcript...

First of all, I noticed the interview was back in SEPT 07! Secondly, it was at that time that Ono stated it's 5% complete.

Needless to say, they are more than 5% complete nearly 4 months later.

I'm starting to actually appreciate this unreleased game, it's scary. I think I may end up buying the game on faith in Ono. I did like Onimusha Dawn of Dreams a lot (completely different game I know). It at least tells me he can leap head-on into an established franchise, bring new stuff, and make it better or at least as good as ever.

I'm glad to know Ono is so passionate about keeping it SF, and to have the actual gameplay in a 2d-style.

I'm actually curious to know what the final product will look like. I'm not worried about gameplay though. He's applying some interesting methods to balance the game out. Having it run faster than usual? I never heard of doing that, in order to balance it, though I can see how it might help.

Anywho, I feel a little embarrassed about shrugging this game off so easily before. :sweat:

goodm0urning

01-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Yeah but whats worse...

SFA3 fireballs can't be parried but do very little damage.
3S fireballs can be parried but do decent damage.With fireballs, sometimes damage isn't the point.

I use Remy exclusively and yeah, its very easy to parry fireballs but in high pressure situations, your opponent is a lot less likely to parry and more likely to eat a fireball or block it. This includes EX and regular fireballs. The problem I have with A3 is that it doesn't matter how many fireballs you make your opponent eat, they all do crap damage.And in SF3, it doesn't matter how strong fireballs are because, for the most part, they're useless.

Kamui

01-07-2008, 04:10 PM

The amount of damage a fireball inflicts, though valid, misses their overall point. Projectiles are a means of controlling space, which ultimately enables the attacker to bait jumps or other risky counter measures and punish them. In many cases projectiles allow characters to move into different positions in safer manners.

Projectiles have absolutely horrendous recovery periods in 3s (excluding Remy's projectile), which made it possible for the defending player to actually land a free super art even if a fireball hit them, from middle range or closer. That sort of disadvantage for successfully landing an attack is absolutely ridiculous in every sense of the word. In a game where you can easily negate a projectile for no cost, there's no reason for any offensive option to be that awful, unless it were to have a huge pay off for hitting (and they don't 3s, most don't even knockdown anymore). That, coupled with the ability to nullify them, makes it very difficult to ever pressure your enemy into a bad situation with projectiles. Even the better fireballs, like Remy's LoV, carry huge disadvantages when faced against the parry.

You're also exaggerating the amount of damage projectiles inflict in 3s. They still do far less damage than a HP. Some don't even inflict as much as a MP. EX projectiles don't carry this issue, but they cost meter, and in most cases meter can be used for bigger and better things.

Yeah but whats worse...

SFA3 fireballs can't be parried but do very little damage.
3S fireballs can be parried but do decent damage.

I use Remy exclusively and yeah, its very easy to parry fireballs but in high pressure situations, your opponent is a lot less likely to parry and more likely to eat a fir