SF-EX 4 - No thanks, Classic gameplay yes please

[margalis]

If any of this new information is true then clearly Capcom is not doing anything revolutionary.

So can we go back to the classic attributes that made SF good in the first place?

Knockdowns matter.
Meaties matter.
Being cornered matters.
Projectiles matter.
Spacing and space control matter.

These are what made SF so much fun to begin with, and in many ways these are what made MVC2 popular as well, strange as it sounds. (Being cornered, projectiles and space control all matter a lot in MVC2) Not coincidentally almost none of these things matter in CVS2, and that game really isn't very good.

Classic SF and MVC2 are both very strategic games. Give me some more of that please, not SF EX with more meters.

Edit: I made this a separate thread because it's more about the philosophy of the game design itself.

[polarity]

Agree 100%. Unfortunately, even within the hardcore scene most players now don't understand what made SF great. See the number of people who want parries in SF4 for evidence.

Please bear in mind, people, this isn't about not wanting change. As margalis pointed out, on the abstract level, MvC2 and SF2 are based on many of the same fundamental principles, and nobody is going to accuse those games of being alike. It is possible to make a unique experience while retaining what made older SFs so strategically deep yet so full of variety, two factors which have both been denigrated in newer SF games.

[Sutanreyu]

Apparently the TC missed the part about SF4 playing like a 2D fighter.

[Dencore]

Apparently the TC missed the part about SF4 playing like a 2D fighter.

Apparently you didn't read his or Polarity's post.

[KING]

*SNIP*...sad to say, but i'd have to agree.

i sure hope they pull a rabbit of their hats on this game.

[Sexperienced.]

Apparently the TC missed the part about SF4 playing like a 2D fighter.

and how does that make it any different to EX?

[goodm0urning]

I see the point, but I still don't think there's any reason for people to automatically assume this is going to be like EX (which, incidentally, might not have been an instant classic, but it's not the shitpile people pretend it is either). 2.5D can describe anything, from SFEX to MvC2 to Smash Bros. The lone fact that SF4 will be 2.5D still leaves the rest of the possibilities for the game wide open.

[polarity]

Uh, his point is that seeing as Capcom clearly aren't reinventing the wheel with the system (presuming the leaked info is true), they might as well go with implementing the best and most important features of the SF system that were denigrated in later games. He's not saying just because it's 3D it can't do that, he's just mentioning SFEX because it was a 3D SF that didn't adhere to traditional SF principles and was lacking as a game because of that.

[SSJGouKi]

See the number of people who want parries in SF4 for evidence.



the majority of ppl that hate parrying are probably the exact ones that pretty much suck in parrying in general OR..... they just mad because there options in pressure games are limited against an |33t parry player. These ppl either are disappointed because they can't run the same tactic over and over or was a victim to a fantastic parry player. sad really. :sad:

[goodm0urning]

Uh, his point is that seeing as Capcom clearly aren't reinventing the wheel with the system (presuming the leaked info is true), they might as well go with implementing the best and most important features of the SF system that were denigrated in later games. He's not saying just because it's 3D it can't do that, he's just mentioning SFEX because it was a 3D SF that didn't adhere to traditional SF principles and was lacking as a game because of that.Yeah, I know. I was just cautioning him on the title: there is no way this thread gets by without somebody eventually posting, "OMG I AGREE SF4 WIL BE LIEK SFEX LULZ FUCKSHIT I WILL NEVAR PLAY TIS GAEM!!!11"

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

Yeah, I know. I was just cautioning him on the title: there is no way this thread gets by without somebody eventually posting, "OMG I AGREE SF4 WIL BE LIEK SFEX LULZ FUCKSHIT I WILL NEVAR PLAY TIS GAEM!!!11"

Knowing there are illiterate people on this forum isn't nothing new.

[arstal]

The Brazilian blog report on Kotaku states parries are gone but something new is around called Saving or Revenge. A burst meter?

They're also claiming super moves are back, and an ultra move- wonder if that is EX moves/super art?

[polarity]

the majority of ppl that hate parrying are probably the exact ones that pretty much suck in parrying in general OR..... they just mad because there options in pressure games are limited against an |33t parry player. These ppl either are disappointed because they can't run the same tactic over and over or was a victim to a fantastic parry player. sad really. :sad:

Right, so what about all those high-level 3S players (Cole, Watson, and Five Star to name three of the top of my head) who have admitted they think parrying is retarded?

[caliagent#3]

If any of this new information is true then clearly Capcom is not doing anything revolutionary.

So can we go back to the classic attributes that made SF good in the first place?

Knockdowns matter.
Meaties matter.
Being cornered matters.
Projectiles matter.
Spacing and space control matter.



knockdowns: work and matter in EX
meaties: work in EX
cornered: works and matters in EX
projectiles: work and matter in EX
spacing: works and matters in EX

Uh, his point is that seeing as Capcom clearly aren't reinventing the wheel with the system (presuming the leaked info is true), they might as well go with implementing the best and most important features of the SF system that were denigrated in later games. He's not saying just because it's 3D it can't do that, he's just mentioning SFEX because it was a 3D SF that didn't adhere to traditional SF principles and was lacking as a game because of that.

EX wasn't lacking as a game because it didn't adhere to traditional SF principle, it was "lacking" as a game because people don't want SF in 2.5D/3D. EX plays like a hybrid of SF2/alpha. To say you don't like the way it looks or the animation is fine, but to say it doesn't play like SF is a lie. Especially when it plays more like a "traditional" SF game than SF3 does.

[ShinjiGohan]

Yes 3D graphics while maintaining 2D gameplay is a bad thing :rolleyes:

[Lazy Foo']

an ultra move- wonder if that is EX moves/super art?

EX had Meteor combos from EX2 on. They were just level 3 supers like Shin Shoryu, or some over the top shit like making you dance yourself to death or hitting you to mars and back.

[SHAAAADY]

knockdowns: work and matter in EX
meaties: work in EX
cornered: works and matters in EX
projectiles: work and matter in EX
spacing: works and matters in EX



EX wasn't lacking as a game because it didn't adhere to traditional SF principle, it was "lacking" as a game because people don't want SF in 2.5D/3D. EX plays like a hybrid of SF2/alpha. To say you don't like the way it looks or the animation is fine, but to say it doesn't play like SF is a lie. Especially when it plays more like a "traditional" SF game than SF3 does.

Truth.

[Cascade]

If any of this new information is true then clearly Capcom is not doing anything revolutionary.

Yes, capcom should go back to their old ways. Very revolutionary.

Edit: I made this a separate thread because it's more about the philosophy of the game design itself.

I don't see the logic in capcom hold themselves back out of tradition when developing it on the next generation consoles. It makes no sense when you can go back to the classics, which is on the previous generation consoles.

[ShinjiGohan]

EX had Meteor combos from EX2 on. They were just level 3 supers like Shin Shoryu, or some over the top shit like making you dance yourself to death or hitting you to mars and back.

I believe he meant the EX moves in SF3. Where if you have enough bar, performing a special move with 2 punches or kicks will perform an "enchanced" version of the move.

Not whether SFEX had super moves.

[JAMMAR]

I will agree that parries are perhaps a little too much in 3S.

However, with the topic on how it looks like SF4 is not looking like SF, I will have to suggest that they once more incorporate parry again. I want SF4 to be an evolution, so why not take the best (or most popular) mechanics and gameplay of both SF3 and SF2, and then you can start fixing and adding.

[Lazy Foo']

I believe he meant the EX moves in SF3. Where if you have enough bar, performing a special move with 2 punches or kicks will perform an "enchanced" version of the move.

Not whether SFEX had super moves.

Yeah, but I don't see anybody calling an enhanced version of a move Ultra Combos. Meteor Combos I can see people calling ultra combos.

But then again people seem to give a lot of credit to an article mentioning Shen Long as character in the game.

[King9999]

Bah, too much hate for the EX games (again).

[ShinjiGohan]

Yes, I thought marg was above the hate. Guess I was wrong and now disappointed...

SFEX the worlds most misunderstood fighting game just because it looks 3D.

[Sasmasta]

I'll play SFIV.

[Master Chibi]

I'll play SFIV.

Yeah.

Could we stick to that?

:rofl:

[Dencore]

Yes, I thought marg was above the hate. Guess I was wrong and now disappointed...

SFEX the worlds most misunderstood fighting game just because it looks 3D.

I've always disliked the franchise because of how it played, but I agree that's probably the reason why most shudder it. I bet a fair share amount of people who hate the game haven't even played an EX game before.

[margalis]

Post title is not the best, it's really two separate thoughts:

1. Don't give me EX 4.
2. Return to classic elements of gameplay please.

I don't care to argue how much spacing mattered in EX.

I though EX+A was pretty fun, but I don't think many people would be excited if SFIV plays like an EX game.

[King9999]

Post title is not the best, it's really two separate thoughts:

1. Don't give me EX 4.
2. Return to classic elements of gameplay please.

I don't care to argue how much spacing mattered in EX.

I though EX+A was pretty fun, but I don't think many people would be excited if SFIV plays like an EX game.

I don't think anyone here is expecting SF4 to play like EX. It's just that some people come to that conclusion since SF4 has 3D graphics. But I like EX, and I like some of the gameplay systems that's in it (one of which was borrowed by CvS2).

[ShinjiGohan]

Post title is not the best, it's really two separate thoughts:

1. Don't give me EX 4.
2. Return to classic elements of gameplay please.

I don't care to argue how much spacing mattered in EX.

I though EX+A was pretty fun, but I don't think many people would be excited if SFIV plays like an EX game.

I dunno, I was zoning out BloodriotAkuma pretty damn well on tuesday with dhalsim. Even to the point that he argued that Dhalsim was broke. That was even before I started doing some combos with sim.

Or watching Wong zone out JoshDaFunk in Ex2+ this last evo north with Ryu against Josh's v.rosso.

[caliagent#3]

Post title is not the best, it's really two separate thoughts:

1. Don't give me EX 4.
2. Return to classic elements of gameplay please.

I don't care to argue how much spacing mattered in EX.

I though EX+A was pretty fun, but I don't think many people would be excited if SFIV plays like an EX game.

What classic gameplay elements do you mean?? AFAIK EX has them:wonder:

[ShinjiGohan]

The only thing that I can think of is that it doesn't have a true corner. If you're put into a corner you can be pushed further back.

[JubeiNinja69]

don't worry it won't be like EX. they won't trash this legendary series. capcom is developing it or so i hope.

[veristic]

This is what happens when someone fails to read anything and just goes straight for the images.

Making useless threads like this to try and placate their insensibilities.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

as long as it doesn't have stupid ass jumps...

[Gutter Trash]

Let's wait to see in-game video footage before admitting doom.
If the animation is anything like the ink teaser trailer, then we are in for a good show.

[Shade]

Thread OP's like this just prove how fucking moronic, and single minded the fighting game community has become.

"If it's not the same shit, I don't want it".
"OMG, this again? WTF I DON'T WANT THIS SHIT."

Make up your god damned mind. And if you want the same damn game, again, and again, and again, play the game you really want to play, and just ignore this.

[Hisham]

Thread OP's like this just prove how fucking moronic, and single minded the fighting game community has become.

"If it's not the same shit, I don't want it".
"OMG, this again? WTF I DON'T WANT THIS SHIT."

Make up your god damned mind. And if you want the same damn game, again, and again, and again, play the game you really want to play, and just ignore this.

This is the truth.

[Humbag]

I really hope this game sticks to the tried and true gameplay.

[Gaijinblaze]

Thread OP's like this just prove how fucking moronic, and single minded the fighting game community has become.

"If it's not the same shit, I don't want it".
"OMG, this again? WTF I DON'T WANT THIS SHIT."

Make up your god damned mind. And if you want the same damn game, again, and again, and again, play the game you really want to play, and just ignore this.
Is it really that hard to believe that people want more of what they like? You're confusing two separate groups and thinking they're one thing. Of course random canoners at the BBS don't want rehashed shit, and people here don't want the game to become something that isn't SF. For the most part, I haven't seen any decent SRK person complain that something new is too similar to SF for its own good.

[Xiii]

Man, as long as the game doesn't play worst than CFJ people should be happy.

[chopperbyrne]

Lets get things straight. The EX series plays like SF II/Alpha for the most part. Cornering is a little different, but all the classic gameplay and strategies work.

Spacing is very important, which was always one of the most important parts of SF II.

EX + Alpha is better than the Alpha series in my opinion.

If SF IV plays like EX, but with a few tweaks, I'd be very happy with it.

[Lonewolf_Fenrir]

Considering SF EX games were not made by Capcom, why assume SFIV is going to play like those games ?
I'll definitely play SF IV too !

[margalis]

SFII and Alpha don't play the same. That was kind of my point.

What I'd *really* like to see is something really new and different, but it sounds like we aren't getting that. If we're getting "tried and true" gameplay I'd much prefer the things I listed to be more important than they have been in the past 10 years. (With the exception of MVC2)

All the SF-style games have knockdowns, but in SF2 they matter far more than the others. All the SF-style games have corners, but again in SF2 they matter far more.

SF2 is fundamentally a game about space control and creating and maintaining advantageous situations. Alpha, CVS2, etc, are not. In games like CVS2 and Alpha 2 being cornered or knocked down doesn't matter as much, the space control options are weaker and the relative power of things like meaties are way down while the relative power of super meter based attacks is way up.

Let's be real here, meaty attacks don't matter in post SF2 games. Yes, you can use them, but rarely do they make any difference. Being cornered is rarely something to sweat over, whereas in SF2 being cornered can be a real "oh shit" moment.

SF2 is often compared to Chess because both are strategic, both are about space control and in both moves have long-term consequences.

In most later Capcom games what you did 5 or 10 seconds earlier is rarely relevant.

[SNAAAAKE]

Knockdowns matter.
Meaties matter.
Being cornered matters.
Projectiles matter.
Spacing and space control matter.

Not coincidentally almost none of these things matter in CVS2



:rofl: :rofl:

srk never cease to amaze me. just because you are a random-ass scrub doesnt mean cvs2 "really isn't very good game". Id be more than happy if sf4 played ANYTHING like cvs2.

[Ryo Yamazaki]

I would love an ex4. No tagging though

If only Arika could co-develop sf4...

[KYO84]

Not coincidentally almost none of these things matter in CVS2, and that game really isn't very good.

Umm wtf? I think people would be more than Happy if SFIV played anything close to CvS2, at this point people are worried it's going to be another SF EX.

[1337]

I would like to see parries if you can do them only to a fireball or they make them harder to do with a missing frame :P

SF3 Parry was so abusive & too easy to execute.


& yeah, if the leaks are true! it is just a an EX IV since Ex Has CC & looks a lot like this but with outdated GFX.

[Tigerboi]

*reads thread* this website is full of fucking lemmings. seriously.

As many times as I've seen people bash EX on this site, I've never seen ANYBODY explain what made it bad.

EX was a 2D fighter just like *gasp* 3S, ST and A3.

[m1kekim]

CFJ was a damn fine game. Too bad you bitches missed out.

[TrueSephiroth]

If any of this new information is true then clearly Capcom is not doing anything revolutionary.

So can we go back to the classic attributes that made SF good in the first place?

Knockdowns matter.
Meaties matter.
Being cornered matters.
Projectiles matter.
Spacing and space control matter.

These are what made SF so much fun to begin with, and in many ways these are what made MVC2 popular as well, strange as it sounds. (Being cornered, projectiles and space control all matter a lot in MVC2) Not coincidentally almost none of these things matter in CVS2, and that game really isn't very good.

Classic SF and MVC2 are both very strategic games. Give me some more of that please, not SF EX with more meters.

Edit: I made this a separate thread because it's more about the philosophy of the game design itself.

:tup::clap::rock::pray:

Why do you speak the thoughts in my mind with such uncanny abilities, but everything you've said I completely agree with. All of the above is what I would want to see in SFIV.

[nohoho]

The lead guy on SFEX was Akira Nishitani, one of the creators of SF2.

The lead guy on SFIV is Yoshinori Ono, one of the creators of CFJ.

[Justice Inferno]

As many times as I've seen people bash EX on this site, I've never seen ANYBODY explain what made it bad.


Exactly, and I could extend that to a few other sites too. Screw Attack for example put EX3 high on its list of 'Worst Fighting Games' with an explanation no deeper than 'wahh it's not 2D' and I haven't seen much more detail from supposedly 'knowledgable' individual posters.

I'd actually be more excited if this was EX4 because then I'd have characters such as Vulcano Russo, Darun, Kairi, Skullo, Shadow, etc. to look forward to.

[Tigerboi]

Let's be real here, meaty attacks don't matter in post SF2 games. Yes, you can use them, but rarely do they make any difference. Being cornered is rarely something to sweat over, whereas in SF2 being cornered can be a real "oh shit" moment.


The only thing more horrifying than this statement is that there are actually people who agree with you.

[pherai]

It's interesting that just knowing this game is 3d rendered on a 2d plane is enough to know for a fact nothing "revolutionary" will come from this game. This thread and the OP fail.

don't worry it won't be like EX. they won't trash this legendary series. capcom is developing it or so i hope.

You've got to love this reassuring post. What could be more comforting than uninformed delusions?

[caliagent#3]

SFII and Alpha don't play the same. That was kind of my point.

What I'd *really* like to see is something really new and different, but it sounds like we aren't getting that. If we're getting "tried and true" gameplay I'd much prefer the things I listed to be more important than they have been in the past 10 years. (With the exception of MVC2)

All the SF-style games have knockdowns, but in SF2 they matter far more than the others. All the SF-style games have corners, but again in SF2 they matter far more.

SF2 is fundamentally a game about space control and creating and maintaining advantageous situations. Alpha, CVS2, etc, are not. In games like CVS2 and Alpha 2 being cornered or knocked down doesn't matter as much, the space control options are weaker and the relative power of things like meaties are way down while the relative power of super meter based attacks is way up.

Let's be real here, meaty attacks don't matter in post SF2 games. Yes, you can use them, but rarely do they make any difference. Being cornered is rarely something to sweat over, whereas in SF2 being cornered can be a real "oh shit" moment.

SF2 is often compared to Chess because both are strategic, both are about space control and in both moves have long-term consequences.

In most later Capcom games what you did 5 or 10 seconds earlier is rarely relevant.

If you want another SF2 style game, there's STHD, SFIV is supposed to be different while maintaining some of the KEY gameplay elements. Alpha, 3s (to a very small extent), and CvS2 all have the basic SF2 elements. Fact is EX (EX-EX2) plays more like SF2 than ANY of the new games (*cough* SF3) while introducing new features, like EVERY SF game does. It'd be a godsend if SFIV actually resembles anything like EX, especially since the alternative is another shitty SF3 type game.

As far as knockdowns and meaties go, they really matter in EX. Ummm Ddark explosive mixups???? Meaties linking into supers??? Dunno how you can just disregard the same setups and tactics that have prevailed through most of the SF games.

[SonicRain]

Ouch, u guys saw the leaked images?

it's basically SFex4... for sure now.

system looks shitty...
saw it on neo-arcadia

check it out.
its french tho google translate it if you cant read it

[ramza]

the only reason meaties mattered back then was the difficulty of reversals. Meaties back then were more of a "I dare you to try to reversal" deal. Easier reversals in future SF were a good change IMO; it allows every player to do what they intended. Nailing wake up reversals shouldn't even factor in what makes a good or bad player, when its the thought process behind it that we're all interested in.

[Tigerboi]

Ouch, u guys saw the leaked images?

it's basically SFex4... for sure now.

system looks shitty...
saw it on neo-arcadia

check it out.
its french tho google translate it if you cant read it

Why are so many people making so many wild assumptions from two screenshots? We still know nothing about the game, really.

[SonicRain]

your right but it feels good to let it out :)

[Infested Jester]

Wow, it's like 95% of the people in here took a few shots of stupid juice before posting. Did a gamefaqs/screwattack super virus infiltrate this thread or something?

[OMG AntiAir Dust]

SF2 is fundamentally a game about space control and creating and maintaining advantageous situations. Alpha, CVS2, etc, are not. In games like CVS2 and Alpha 2 being cornered or knocked down doesn't matter as much, the space control options are weaker and the relative power of things like meaties are way down while the relative power of super meter based attacks is way up.


:confused: Every high level game of CVS2 is largely about zoning and spacing. Why do you think people with good range and high damage dominate a lot of the tiers (blanka, sagat, and vega to and extent)? I mean its not exactly like old school street fighter but it shouldnt be, its a new game. As people in here have said if you want old school play the old game or SFHD remix.

People need to give capcom a chance to make this damn game and hate or love it based on its merits. People act like its destined to fail based on a screenshot of ryu standing there.

[ramza]

it is. his crotch is showing

[Shin_Shinyuken]

I wanted this game to be strictly 2D as much as the next guy, but am I the only one who is REALLY warming up to the Ryu model?

[King9999]

I wanted this game to be strictly 2D as much as the next guy, but am I the only one who is REALLY warming up to the Ryu model?

I like the Ryu model too. It looks 2D without actually being 2D, and it's not typical cel shading. It's a nice look.

[Saotome Kaneda]

wow, there are 2 stickies that make this thread utterly worthless, good job srk