Official SSF2T: HD Remix Thread (Part 2) [Archive]

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Cowdisease

12-12-2007, 09:44 AM

The current SF:HD thread (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=4590055) is getting too big, so I thought it was time to start a new one.

Before I begin, make sure you check out Capcom's main Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo: HD Remix's FAQ (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/577) and the State of the Union address (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/998) in the Capcom blog before you ask questions about SSF2T:HD Remix (abbreviated to SF:HD from this point on). Chances are that your questions are answered there.

Here's what we know about SF:HD so far based on what was said by Sirlin, Rey Jimenez, and other Capcom/Backbone employees.

SF:HD is considered to be the next entry of the SF2 series, making it the 6th installment of the series (Hyper SF2 is not considered a new SF installment). There will be actually be two games in SF:HD: the original Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo and a remixed gameplay mode with rebalanced gameplay tweaks. Fans will be able to play the game with the classic ST sprites or the new redrawn HD graphics (drawn by Udon artists) in either mode (however, the backgrounds will remain in their redrawn HD state regardless of sprite-style selection).

The game will be released as a downloadable title for both Xbox LIVE Arcade and Playstation Network (XBLA and PSN), but a price has not been determined yet. Capcom has revealed (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1011) that both versions will be identical, as Microsoft has granted Capcom an exception to the 150MB XBLA size limit that could have limited the XBLA version of the game.

Release Date

Sirlin has stated that the game will be released in Summer 2008. It was announced as one of the games in this year's Evolution 2008 tournament (http://www.evo2k.com/), which takes place August 8th-10th at Las Vegas, but it has since been replaced by regular Super Turbo. This implies that the game will not be ready for Evo, but Mr. Wizard has indicated that the game will still make an appearance at the tournament.

SFHD Beta

Capcom announced that those who purchase Wolf on the Battlefield: Commando 3 via Xbox LIVE Arcade will be able to access an eight-week SFHD Beta where Ryu and Ken will be the only selectable characters. The purpose of this beta is to test the game's network connections. Some have complained that PS3 owners were left out of the beta, but Christian Svensson explains why that happened (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1019).

We are resource constrained. This project already has gone over the original budget (we had a new budget approved to accomodate our dedication to its quality and the new features… there were even a few we wanted to do that had to get cut in the end… more on that in a post mortem blog or something). Anyway, we wanted to do a beta to test the new network features but even if it were possible for Sony to do, it would require 3 submissions (US, Europe, Asia/Japan) to reach the same global audience we can with MS in a single test and global submission.

Commando 3 will be available on the Xbox LIVE Marketplace, Wednesday, June 11th, 2008, for 800 Microsoft Points, which equates to $10 US dollars. The beta will be activated on Wednesday, June 25th, 2008.

Remixed Mode

Sirlin revealed his design goals (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/542#more-542) for the remixed mode.

Here are the design goals:

1) Make the game easier to play—more inclusive rather than exclusive
2) Make the game even more balanced for tournament play
3) Add fun as long as it doesn’t interfere with #2.

In this mode, we can assume that inconsistent properties such as random dizzies will be fixed in the game. Characters who did not have reversal supers can now perform them (we saw Ken do a reversal super in the SF:HD footage (http://youtube.com/watch?v=u_CoKEvn45Q) that Rey Jimenez revealed). Most interesting is what was revealed in a 1up.com preview article (http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3163794).

The game will feature a "rebalanced mode," which will not only attempt to eliminate significant advantages between characters, but also simplify move inputs for casual players. Svensson stresses that all original button combinations will still remain intact, but those looking to pull off Zangief's typically complex piledriver move or one of Akuma's three-button attacks with one fewer button press will have that option.

More surprising than the slight modification of existing moves is the addition of new ones -- both those taken from other, non-numbered series entries (such as Ryu's fake fireball), and some that have been created from scratch for HD Remix. According to Svensson, "almost every character, especially the less popular characters, has been given some new toys." Several of the world's top Super Street Fighter II Turbo players have been consulting to help maintain the integrity of the experience during this rebalancing process.Sirlin revealed in a Capcom blog the extent of these changes.

Easier Moves Overview
• Dragon Punch timing more forgiving
• 360s alternate motions
• Tiger knee motions removed
• Mash moves easier
• All 3 button moves changed to 2 buttons

You can read more about the changes in this post (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/542#more-542).

Brian Dunn revealed this in the Capcom Digital Blog (http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/10/18/sfhd_in_motion#c4001), "This game uses the Dreamcast version as a base. Basically it uses the same base code (with improvements and new features and additions), with all of the "art" files replaced with new ones for the updated look." Rey added the following in this Capcom Digital blog post (http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/10/23/sfhd_w_i_p_screenshots) after some objected to the use of the DC version of ST.
Brian mentioned that we are basing the game off of the Dreamcast version. That was done because the DC (Japanese version) code is easier to work with, and there was already existing network code within the game to start with because the Japanese version had an online matchmaking service. Now, before you guys start throwing tables in disgust because we are using the DC version and not the arcade version, realize that the DC version was an arcade perfect version. Or at least it was really close. Some “dip switches” were changed for the DC version that gave it some of its interesting quirks. For SFHD, we are simply flipping those “switches” back to their original settings so that the game plays like the arcade version. Also, we are making fine adjustments as needed to make sure it plays exactly like the arcade. So, while it is true we are basing the code off of the DC version, the end result will play arcade perfect.

Updating the Fighters

Sirlin has posted how the ST cast will be changed in the Remixed Mode. Here's a list of changes revealed so far.

Ryu (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/558)
T. Hawk (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/598)
Ken (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/627)
Blanka (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/872)
Cammy (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/960)
Balrog (Boxer) (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/987)
Sagat (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1041)
Fei Long (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1105#more-1105)
Updated changes (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1121#more-1121) to some of the characters mentioned above.
T. Hawk revisited (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1143)
Guile (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1183)

This list will be updated as more character changes are revealed.

Graphics

According to this Game Informer article (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200710/N07.1019.1516.29680.htm?Page=1): According to Svensson, the art is behind schedule and Capcom won’t release the game until it’s ready. The team at Udon was previously doing all character art, all static portraits, all backgrounds and all key frames. "What’s likely to happen is we’re going to have Udon do every single frame. As a result, we’ll get a better product, but it’s going to take more time." Svensson stated that the art budget alone surpasses what most companies spend on an Xbox Live Arcade game in its entirety.

Rey Jimenez revealed in the Capcom blog, "The HUD and fonts are very early. We haven't done anything to jazz it up yet. So I know it looks boring now, but it's something we'll be working on."

Recently, Capcom revealed how the HD art looks like now in the State of the Union address (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/998).

Music/Sound

In a reversal to what was announced previously, remixed tunes will be available in the game. According to the 1up article, Christian Svensson hints that the community will come into play somehow with the creation (or selection) of the remixed music tracks. Rey Jimenez said in the Capcom Digital Blog, "You'll also notice the new Ken level music. Again, this is an optional feature, but I am working with a bunch of talented individuals to get new music in the game. I'll let you know who they are later as we get closer to release."

In recent gameplay videos, the remixed tracks for Ken's, Vega's (claw), Fei Long's stages were modified tracks from the Blood on the Asphalt (http://sf2.ocremix.org/) remix project. It was also confirmed that players can play with the classic or remixed soundtrack in either Classic or Remixed mode.

No word yet if Guile will have a manly "Sonic Boom" voice this time, but Ken and Ryu were using their CPSII voices in the SF:HD footage. It has been requested by many fans that Guile's and Balrog (boxer)'s voice be changed from the current ST announcer's voice.

Widescreen Mode

In another reversal to what was said previously, SF:HD will have a widescreen option. According to Rey Jimenez, "As you may remember, we weren't planning on including any sort of widescreen support that would extend the edges of the playing field to the edge of the screen. But the community voiced that they wanted it really bad, so we decided to put it in. The mode is optional, so you can play in standard 4:3 if you want to. It’s not a stretched mode, but something similar to what’s been suggested on many forums as a widescreen option. Essentially, it’s a zoomed in mode, with a portion of the top of the screen cropped off." Sirlin at one point in his blog said, "The widescreen mode zooms in the camera but does not change gameplay. I was skeptical at first, but it's turning out surprisingly good. Even hardcore players seem to like it, even prefer it to the regular 4:3 mode."

Remember, widescreen mode is optional.

Tournament Options

Capcom has revealed that there will be an 8-man tournament option in the game.

Online Matchmaking

There was a very good suggestion for a blind selection option. Setting it so that players won’t know whom their opponent selected until the versus screen will prevent players from playing chicken on who picks first (and the other picking a counter-character). Definitely set blind selection as a default option for ranked matches.

In this Videogamer.com interview (http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/super_street_fighter_ii_turbo_hd_remix/preview-743-2.html), Sirlin confirms that a visible time limit will appear on the character selection screen. It will visibly dissuade opponents from staying on the versus screen indefinitely (like those in Hyper Fighting who pick up wins from quitting players who are tired of waiting) and also advise indecisive Super Turbo players how much time they have left before the game chooses a fighter for them.

Speaking of quitting, Sirlin has stated that quitters will be dealt with (most likely with an automatic loss). Some have also suggested adding a disconnect stat (like DoA4) so that you can see if an opponent likes to quit mid-match a lot.

Rey Jimenez revealed that ranking system will no longer just track win/loss ratios. It will be a system similar to chess' ranking system. Some have suggested implementing a decaying rating system, where rating points for everyone goes down after a week or so (or just for those who haven't played in a week). It prevents people who begin with an awesome record to permanently remaining on top of leaderboards if they never play again.

Furthermore, there will be two leaderboards, one for original ST, one for Rebalanced/Remixed ST.

Quarter Match

Rey Jimenez confirmed that Quarter Match will be available, and according to a Game Informer article (http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200710/N07.1019.1516.29680.htm?Page=2), it's going to be expanded. The Quarter Match lobby can now hold six people with four spectators and two players. Spectators can hang out and opt out of gameplay if they don’t want to play. Also, if someone drops out, someone can join a game that’s already in progress.

Winner Stays as Same Character Option

Ultradavid had a really good suggestion of adding a "Winner Stays as Same Character" option for the Quarter Match lobby. In the arcade, you were not allowed to switch characters if you won a match and were challenged again, so you could recreate that in a Quarter Match lobby with this option. Players could search for Quarter Match lobbies with a filter for this option on, off, or either.

Allow Guests in Non-ranked Quarter Matches

This feature was missed in Puzzle Fighter HD, and I'm sure some would like to bring their guests online, especially since there are six slots in the Quarter Room. Since guests can only play in non-ranked games (like Halo 3), you don't have to worry about people using their local friends to do some unscrupulous stat-boosting.

Play Arcade or Training Mode While Waiting for Online Match

A common complaint among online fighting game fans is the inability to do anything while hosting a room and waiting for a match. A good way to kill time is to allow the player to play Arcade or Training Mode while waiting for a challenger to enter the lobby. When a challenger enters the room, the "Here Comes a New Challenger!" message appears, your arcade/practice session ends, and you are back in the lobby with your new challenger.

Netcode

In the 1up.com preview article, this interesting tidbit was revealed.

While Svensson can't detail just what it is that the developers are doing to counteract such issues with HD Remix, he offers a bold, potentially reassuring statement: "It's network code that's never been seen in a commercial fighting game before, and it will hopefully provide, even under relatively poor network connections, a much better experience than any fighting game that's ever existed."

Why is Svensson so confident? You might assume that Capcom will license the GGPO algorithm (http://ggpo.net/), since it has been proven to provide almost lagless online play for fighting games. However, to date Capcom has not committed to using GGPO, despite its excellent reputation among the hardcore players that use it.

Why would Capcom invest their resources in reinventing the wheel if GGPO is already out there? Don't expect an official answer from Capcom or Backbone, but some speculated that Capcom did not want to pay to license GGPO (this is merely conjecture and has no factual basis). Nonetheless, if we raise a stink in the Capcom BBS (http://www.capcom.com/BBS/forumdisplay.php?f=261) and the Capcom Digital Blog (http://blogs.capcomusa.com/blogs/digital.php/2007/10/18/sfhd_in_motion), there's a shot (albeit a long one) that Capcom would reconsider using GGPO for SF:HD (and maybe even SF4). Polarity already started a GGPO thread (http://ww2.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?t=20872) in the Capcom BBS.

Costume Colors

The removal of the 'Old' characters from the Remixed version most likely means the return of the original costume colors for the ST cast. Some have suggested that Backbone use this opportunity to provide 14 costume options instead of the standard 8. A good way to provide more colors is by holding a button. Here's how I would set up the extra colors:

Jab - Original Color
Hold Jab - ST Default Color
Hold Strong - 'Old' Alternate Color
Hold Start - ST 'Hold Button' Color
Hold HP, LK, MK, or HK - provide four new color schemes, or three new schemes and a *gasp* custom color slot (or two new schemes and two custom color slots)

Backbone has not indicated if custom colors will be implemented, but it has been constantly requested in the SRK forum. If Backbone does implement custom colors, an option to disable it for online play should be considered.

Combo/Reversal Message Tweaks

Some have suggested that when the computer performs a combo or reversal, the Combo or Reversal message should appear similar to when a player performs a combo or reversal. Others have suggested that when a player performs a reversal throw, a Reversal Attack message should appear.

Replays

Halo 3 has shown how popular video replay sharing is, but I doubt Backbone is going to have the resources to host Super Turbo replays. Nonetheless, the option to save replays (and sending them to your friends if possible) would be welcomed and greatly appreciated by ST fans looking to improve their game (or gloat).

Display XBL/PSN Names during Match

Fans have suggested that, similar to the Xbox KOF games, player's XBL/PSN names (and maybe even connection status: green dot - good connection, yellow dot - average, red dot - not so good) should appear under the lifebars. In a Videogamer.com interview (http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/super_street_fighter_ii_turbo_hd_remix/preview-743-2.html), Sirlin confirmed that gamertags will appear under the health bar during online matches.

Theatre/Gallery Mode

Fans have also suggested that once you beat the game with a character, you unlock his/her ending and additional artwork in this mode. It will give players an extra incentive to beat the game with every character.

Training Mode

It has been confirmed that hitbox display will be an option (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/1261). Still no word if frame data will also be shown.

Some have suggested that Capcom should take notes from Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution's training mode. Rey said regarding this subject, "I've seen some very good suggestions using the training mode style from the SF EX series or VF 5, but I'm not sure if we have the time or extra file size to support such a feature."

At the very least, the option to turn off dizzy should be available. Others have asked for a recording option similar to the one in Capcom vs SNK 2's training mode (dummies perform the correct move even after being crossed-up, recorded actions loop). The Mullah suggested taking the recording option one step further by adding the ability to set the 1p action (block, stand, jump forward/backward/straight up crouch etc) while recording the dummy.

Stat Tracking

From the 1up.com article:

We'll ultimately have to wait to see if such prognostications pan out, but one feature we expect to be completely fascinating is the addition of robust stat tracking tools. "Think of it as your Halo 3 service record," says Svensson, referring to Bungie's mighty collection of highly specific in-game statistics. Either through the game or via a web-based portal, HD Remix players will be able to check out a heap of stats, broken down by character, country of origin, and even move type. "If I want to see the top Cammy players from Canada, I can do that," he says. "If I want to see who has the most throws in the world, period -- I can do that."

Custom Button Configuration Profiles

The Furious One suggested that SF:HD should also have the ability to save and name profiles of custom button configurations. Set up the buttons the way you like and give the configuration a name. Provide six to ten slots for these profiles. During local matches, have an option to allow users to choose their button config profile before the match begins. It eliminates the need to go to button config screen every time a new player joins the fray. Super Smash Bros. Brawl has such a system, so Backbone should definitely take notes from that game.

Controller/Arcade Stick Recommendations

To celebrate the release of SF:HD and commemorate the 20th Anniversary of Street Fighter, Capcom should strongly consider working with Sega again to release a version of the Sega Saturn controller for both Xbox 360 and PS3, similar to the PS2 Saturn Pad Vampire Edition (http://www.ncsxshop.com/cgi-bin/shop/CS1-0007.html). It would make a lot of pad people happy.

As for joysticks, Capcom should work with Sega to release a Street Fighter version of the Virtua Stick High Grade arcade stick for the Xbox 360 and PS3 (and perhaps call it Street Fighter High Grade). Capcom and Sega could improve on the original design by incorporating a longer cord, a more common button configuration, and easier access to the inside of the joystick (like a HRAP). It would be a shame if Capcom skimps on providing a Street Fighter-licensed joystick by going with another variation of the Hori EX 2.

New SF:HD Training Videos

Sirlin revealed in a recent Gametrailers interview (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/31894.html) that he would like to offer character-specific tutorial videos as a separate download pack. No official word if this desire will actually happen.

Xbox LIVE Camera Support

Burnout Paradise had an excellent use of the camera by taking a snapshot right when you crash another car (or you are on the receiving end of a crash), which makes for great reaction shots. Backbone could so something similar by taking a camera shot right when the final KO occurs. You could also activate the camera in the Quarter Match lobby. I wouldn't make this feature a priority, but it would be nice to implement it IF all the other wish-list features have been completed.

More Win Quotes

The idea of permitting custom win quotes was shot down by the Capcom blog, but Sirlin has revealed in this SRK thread (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4800250&postcount=99) that he may incorporate three win quotes for every character in the original mode (some of the new quotes are translated from the Japanese version of the game). This change may bring the possibility of even more win quotes in Remixed mode. Raisin had some good suggestions (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4760551&postcount=94) for various win quotes--by providing either character-specific win quotes or win quotes based on how the player won (narrow win, normal win, or dominating win). In a SF:HD gameplay video, Ken was shown using one of his Alpha 3 win quotes.

Incorporate SF2 Home Console Pause Sound

Rioting Soul had a great suggestion.

There's one thing Sirlin may be forgetting to add that would make HD Remix perfect. He forgot about the SF2 SNES pause sound. It must be in this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZRa-5D7vmc

Different Backgrounds After Each Round

The time of day in certain SF2 backgrounds changed after each revision (Ryu's Stage: WW - sunset, HF - night, ST - dusk), prompting some to suggest that the time of day for many (if not all) backgrounds should change after each round in SF:HD. This concept is not new, as the time of day in certain backgrounds in Fatal Fury Special and King of Fighters would change after every round. Unfortunately, Rey Jimenez confirmed that the backgrounds will not change after a round ends.

Multi-button pause

It would be more for local play, but this was suggested to prevent accidental pauses during matches. This should be an option and not the default choice.

I'll keep updating this post as new info emerges. If you have suggestions, please post them in the thread. If enough people like the idea, or if it's really, really good, I'll add it to this post.

AlterGenesis

12-12-2007, 09:52 AM

Sweet. There was a lot of good information in that single post.

chunbelievable

12-12-2007, 09:57 AM

Thanks for the consolidation again Cow...

BTW, Sven mentioned over at the Capcom boards that he is thinking a Spring of 08 release.

Ansatsuken-TKD

12-12-2007, 10:07 AM

Thanks for the consolidation again Cow...

BTW, Sven mentioned over at the Capcom boards that he is thinking a Spring of 08 release.

Yup! Extra, extra read all about it!

http://www.capcom.com/BBS/showthread.php?p=433614#post433614

The Furious One

12-12-2007, 10:20 AM

Thought we agreed on SF2:HD not SSF2T:HD :arazz:

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 11:23 AM

The Furious One

12-12-2007, 11:38 AM

Random Thought:

If Akuma gets his Raging Demon - could we have cheat to remove the blinding flash so we can finally see what the actual move is. I heard a rumour long ago that it was infact Dan's super from alpha 3, not sure I believe that one though :lol:

Humbag

12-12-2007, 12:03 PM

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 12:04 PM

Yeah dude, it's called SFHD.

The Furious One

12-12-2007, 12:05 PM

LOL i know would be fun if it was just 15 pimp slaps

BruceLB

12-12-2007, 12:12 PM

See, I don't know how anyone can read all the info in that first post and still have doubts about the game.

Lonewolf_Fenrir

12-12-2007, 12:45 PM

Problem is most people won't even read the first post though.
Too bad cause it has great info ^^

Ryu1999

12-12-2007, 02:09 PM

I didn't see the Ken changes till now. So if Ken in rebalance mode gets some of O. Ken's goodies, it would have been logical to give Ryu his old 11/39 fireball instead of keeping the 12/40 from ST...unless they thought that fake fb was already too much

MrArcadePerfect

12-12-2007, 02:55 PM

is this game really coming in spring?

Cowdisease

12-12-2007, 02:59 PM

is this game really coming in spring?The correct answer is "it will ship when it's ready," but Sven said that they're shooting for a Spring 2008 release.

Lee34

12-12-2007, 03:12 PM

good info

Mariodood

12-12-2007, 03:19 PM

Why hasn't Sirlin made a new update!? I'm flippin out.

KING

12-12-2007, 03:35 PM

GOD! UPDATES, PLEASE!!@!$@#$@#$%@#$%@#$

they need to do 2 characters at the same time; this 4-5 month wait is unbearable.

crackbone

12-12-2007, 03:39 PM

The correct answer is "it will ship when it's ready," but Sven said that they're shooting for a Spring 2008 release.

It makes sense, given some of the lackluster sprites that were leaked, and the update that Udon is doing all the artwork. The outside studio must have been dropping the ball big time, and the time savings weren't outweighing the quality of the work.

KING

12-12-2007, 03:42 PM

Color edit mode would be badass we would be seeing rainbow kens, noob-saibot ryus, n all sorts of whacky weirdass colors. However i realize color edit mode would takeup too much space so a more realistic n practical request would be a list that appears after u pick ur character showing all their available colors .

Character wise so far i'm happy with all the changes n while T.hawk could be very scary as long as they tone down his corner360 game then i'm cool with it. Besides if T.hawk did turn out to be toptier which i still find unlikely then it would just be making up for how shitty he was in ST.

I'm most anxious to read sagat n akumas changes cuz both these guys are overpowered yet a simple nerfing of their fb's would drop them in the tiers greatly (moreso sagat then akuma). I wonder how Sirlin will handle the delicate balance of keeping them toptier without making them overly powerful or nerfing them too much. Alot of ppl here bitch about O.sagat without remembering that old versions won't be in STHD and so most likely we will be getting a modified N.sagat who doesn't need any nerfing n in fact could benefit from a slight buff especially against sim which is almost unwinnable for him.

How would yall feel if STHD sagat had all of O.sagats properties but N.sagats fb speed n recovery?they better not put in a color edit mode for those very same reasons you've listed...who the fuck wants to see a noob saibot Ken, ala CvS2?! that's fucking dumb, as in...really annoying!

we can't really say anything about how powerful a character is until they are put into practice; theory fighter is dumb also.

As far as sagat goes, he might end up a "Greatest Hits" version, and end up like O.Sagat with a super at this rate. *shrugs*

It'd be pretty fun if they made him into a totally different character that's more up-close and personal, instead of doing boring tiger shots all day...if anything, they need to nerf his tiger shot chip damage, as well as tiger shot hit damage.

I could care less about tiers, as long as the characters are all fun to play (kind of like Guilty Gear, where all the characters are unique and fun to play as). BTW, I'm not a GG player at the very least. :sweat:

PsychoSquall

12-12-2007, 04:15 PM

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/627 <-- lol they used that live-action movie clip that I edited. :rock::clap:

The Furious One

12-12-2007, 04:23 PM

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/627 <-- lol they used that live-action movie clip that edited. :rock::clap:

it was up there last week. ;)

fatboy

12-12-2007, 04:32 PM

nice post...

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 04:39 PM

In looking through the Ken post again, I noticed he says about the knee bash, "His ability to get as much as 25% damage off each one was just too much."

I hope this means that he also finds Chun's strong throw too damaging because it also does 25% if not teched. Any normal throw that does as much damage as jab ochio, jab spd, and jab typhoon is just stupid. For the same reason, Cammy's punch air throw, even though rarely used, should not do as much as fierce ochio, almost as much as fierce spd, and as much as strong typhoon.

KING

12-12-2007, 04:53 PM

Cammy needs anything she can get.

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 04:57 PM

Heh cammy needs better normals/cannon drill/hooligan, not an extremely damaging air throw of all things.

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 05:27 PM

As far as sagat goes, he might end up a "Greatest Hits" version, and end up like O.Sagat with a super at this rate.

This is definitely NOT gonna happen cuz too many ppl would bitch n although Sirlin said everyone in STHD will be a "greatest hits" version he also said he will nerf only if absolutely neccesary. Last time i checked that was confirmation that claws walldive, boxer/sims noogie trap will all somehow be nerfed and i would include O.sagats fireballs as well but Sirlin already said hes doing away with old versions. IMO STHD sagat will endup alot closer to being like O.sagat then most here would think but just knowing he will be able to tech n have a super confirms his fb game won't be as good as O.sagats.

It'd be pretty fun if they made him into a totally different character that's more up-close and personal, instead of doing boring tiger shots all day...if anything, they need to nerf his tiger shot chip damage, as well as tiger shot hit damage.

Why do u want him being made into a totally different character? thats the most ignorant suggestion made thus far. Sagat was DESIGNED to be all about tigershots thats what most of his gameplan revolves around, what makes SF2 so fun in the first place is that almost everyone plays differently so if u don't like someone then don't use them there are 15 other characters for you to use.

Changing his playstyle would be messing with the SF2 formula way too much instead it would be smarter to change the way sagats playstyle is implemented rather then his design as a whole. This should be handled with kidgloves cuz if his fb is nerfed too much then u take away most of what he is but if u don't nerf it enough then we have even more ppl bitching bout how O.sagat now has a super n can tech. IMO STHD sagat should play like O.sagat but with his fb having a slightly larger revcovery and do less damage/chip that way he'l still be a toptier threat but just not unfairly so keep his singlehit damaging DP but i wouldn't mind if they got rid of his cancellable st.short.

If anything honda is the only character in need of significant overhauling character DESIGN-wise for reasons ultradavid stated in the old thread.

I could care less about tiers, as long as the characters are all fun to play (kind of like Guilty Gear, where all the characters are unique and fun to play as). BTW, I'm not a GG player at the very least. :sweat:

BULLSHIT u know u love tiers it's the way of SRK! Have u ever seen GD? we even tier cereal!:rofl:

But seriously STHD better not turn out like GGAC tierwise where 3 characters rule the game.

I'm 100% confidant Sirlin n co are gonna make STHD amazing and liveup to all our expectations...except for jchensor who i'm sure is hoping cammy will b broken:lol:

KING

12-12-2007, 05:36 PM

BULLSHIT u know u love tiers it's the way of SRK! Have u ever seen GD? we even tier cereal!:rofl:
And yeah, I DO play all the characters, sans Sagat and Dhalsim, since I personally find their designs boring...but that's just taste and preference.

I play Guile, so I don't know what you're talking about. I don't whore tiers; I just play characters I like. I was just lucky my character of choice is pretty balanced.

As having your "beloved" Sagat being changed; it's already happened...since didn't you and some others pointed out that they were toying with a TK's that juggle? That in itself changes a bit of the dynamic behind Sagat's role. If anything, he will be N.Sagat with single-hit uppercuts...unless they really think he should keep the juggle properties from the Fierce version.

Like I said, you twit, Sagat can still keep the "essence" of his gameplay with his wall of tiger shots if they nerf chip and hit damage...if anything, one or the other.

You vote for O.Sagat, since you obviously love scrubbing it up with fireball spam; I'm more inclined to believe that they'll base their final modifications on N.Sagat...with the "greatest hits" idea intact.

If you hadn't noticed, T.Hawk and Ken got some buff changes; some major and minor, but they will be noticeable.

As for tiers, there will inevitably be a "top 3"; it's sort of a nature of the beast.

Eduardo24

12-12-2007, 05:36 PM

I seriously dont understand why you people want Sagat to have similar fb to his old version. I honestly don´t get it. N. sagat is fine.

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 05:44 PM

Heh just to be clear, I actually said Honda doesn't need a drastic overhaul. I think he just needs a few tweaks to help him get in on certain characters, like tweaks to his jumping hitboxes, more controllable neutral jumping fierce, quicker far standing roundhouse, and faster butt drop, and a couple tweaks to his turtle game against other characters like less headbutt priority and no charged ochio, but mostly just trust that the other characters will have gotten better. Also, bring back his old neutral standing fierce (the chop) and his old tripping crouching fierce.

Other people definitely wanted more serious changes, like making the hands into a qcf motion. I think doing that would actually hurt him most in his worst matchups because he wouldn't be able to use them to move forward quickly if he's expecting a fireball while still keeping the ability to butt drop. The hands are hard to deal with for some characters, but most of the characters he beats are worried about him turtling, not rushing them down.

No worries man, just wanted to clear that up.

Also about Sagat, just make his tiger shots start up and recover like a frame or two slower and move just a tiny bit slower, just minor tweaks, and give him multi-hit dragon punches with slightly crappier priority. That way he can still control space well (if not as awesomely as before) but he isn't as good if you get up close to him. I don't see any reason to change his tiger knee, although apparently it is being changed.

Edit: nothing scrubby about throwing tiger shots, it's actually pretty hard to do it effectively, not nearly as easy as it looks.

Edit2: Heh got in the way of that one, R-Jive.

KING

12-12-2007, 05:47 PM

I seriously dont understand why you people want Sagat to have similar fb to his old version. I honestly don´t get it. N. sagat is fine.I agree; N.Sagat is totally fine. A couple of mods here and there, and voila'!

As for "scrubby tiger shots", I was generalizing; I'm sorry if it didn't come out in text too well.

Let's look at how this game will reach a new audience: it'd be pretty discouraging seeing a continuous volley of tiger shots tossed at you, when you're still trying to get your bearings in a game you've just started playing.

For us that have played it since SF2 (wow, class of 92' here!), it's second-nature to manage those tiger shots, but for those new players...it can seem daunting.

The "happy medium" will be hard to find.

Eduardo24

12-12-2007, 05:48 PM

Dude, I KNOW he is better. It`s just that the objective of this project is to balance the game and taking out the horrible shit. And to me o. sagat is one of them.

Edit: ? what happened?

KING

12-12-2007, 05:53 PM

Dude, I KNOW he is better. It`s just that the objective of this project is to balance the game and taking out the horrible shit. And to me o. sagat is one of them.

Edit: ? what happened?

what do you mean what happened?

R-Jive

12-12-2007, 05:53 PM

^Lol yea sorry I misunderstood , deleted that post

Eduardo24

12-12-2007, 05:56 PM

what do you mean what happened?

My post was directed to R-Jive`s post, but he deleted it:wonder:

KING

12-12-2007, 05:56 PM

^Lol yea sorry I misunderstood , deleted that post

where is everyone getting those Christmas Avatars?! Me wanna!:sad:

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 05:57 PM

I don't think it's really a big deal that it might seem daunting to some people. Chances are they're not starting off against John Choi's Sagat, and people who pick up the game with their friends aren't going to know how to use tiger shots because they're kinda hard to get going. O Sagat's tiger shots are really good, doubtless one of the best moves in the game, but considering everyone else is getting better, I don't think they need more than a minor little nerfing.

R-Jive

12-12-2007, 05:58 PM

where is everyone getting those Christmas Avatars?! Me wanna!:sad:

shoo makes em --> http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=144523

Eduardo24

12-12-2007, 06:02 PM

Oh yes, were in christmas time...

Damn Sirlin gives us our update :( Me wants video too

KING

12-12-2007, 06:02 PM

shoo makes em --> http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=144523

LOL found it. :sweat:

I don't think they need more than a minor little nerfing.

*COUGH*DAMAGE*COUGH* :wink:

...that's really all they need.

zass

12-12-2007, 06:14 PM

I have no problem with Chun's throw. You should be able to tech it.

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 06:20 PM

It's fine if it does the same tech damage, and it almost always gets teched. It's just dumb that it does as much damage as jab spinning piledriver, there's no reason for it to be like that.

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 06:21 PM

As having your "beloved" Sagat being changed; it's already happened...since didn't you and some others pointed out that they were toying with a TK's that juggle? That in itself changes a bit of the dynamic behind Sagat's role. If anything, he will be N.Sagat with single-hit uppercuts...unless they really think he should keep the juggle properties from the Fierce version.

I've already made my comments on his new TK in the old thread n i don't think having a better TK will impact his initial gameplan that much which is to spam fb's.

Like I said, you twit, Sagat can still keep the "essence" of his gameplay with his wall of tiger shots if they nerf chip and hit damage...if anything, one or the other.

I don't see anywhere in ur posts where u ever said he can keep the "essence" of his gamplay all i saw was u saying it would be "fun to make him a totally different character" and i agree BOTH chip/hit damage should be nerfed.

You vote for O.Sagat, since you obviously love scrubbing it up with fireball spam; I'm more inclined to believe that they'll base their final modifications on N.Sagat...with the "greatest hits" idea intact.

I vote for O.sagat? hardly go re-read my posts where i clearly indicated i would like to see sagat played similarly to O.sagat with minor tweaks or an exact translation of N.sagat with O.sagats DP and as ultradavid said pinning someone down with sagats fb's is not that easy especially in HF:rofl:

As for tiers, there will inevitably be a "top 3"; it's sort of a nature of the beast.

In HF the top 3 (arguably) is ryu, guile , blanka though the difference between most of the cast is negelible so it's not that noticable that they are top3 STHD should be as balanced as this. If i'm not mistaken HF is considered the most balanced fighter ever made or at least the most balanced SF game to date.

EDIT: Kingdom why do u always decline my invites to play against me in HF? and ultradavid my bad i just remembered a bunch of ppl wanting big changes to honda glad u cleared that up.

EDIT2: I nvr realized how good chuns throw is when not teched n jus popped in CC2 to test it out so i second toning down the damage

...i want an update i hate waiting!!!

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 06:30 PM

Yeah, minor reductions in hit/chip damage would be good too, but the main reason they're so awesome is how well they control space, and that's the most important part to tone slightly down.

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 06:34 PM

^^As long as he plays at least as good as N.sagat then i'l be happy but if he does endup playing exactly like N.sagat (which i doubt will b the case) then i'm glad he has a new juggling TK which hopefully will helpout against sim.

R-Jive

12-12-2007, 06:36 PM

Is it even confirmed that he gets that juggling TK ? or is it all speculation ? it seems rather odd to me.

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 06:38 PM

Well it hasn't been officially confirmed, but one of the posters here who might have reason to know has repeated that it does juggle.

Eduardo24

12-12-2007, 06:40 PM

Maybe sirlin will post sagat next. We have had an upper, mid and a low guy, the next one would be a top.

KING

12-12-2007, 06:58 PM

EDIT: Kingdom why do u always decline my invites to play against me in HF? and ultradavid my bad i just remembered a bunch of ppl wanting big changes to honda glad u cleared that up.

EDIT2: I nvr realized how good chuns throw is when not teched n jus popped in CC2 to test it out so i second toning down the damage

...i want an update i hate waiting!!!

dude, i haven't had my xbox in a month; i gave it to my younger brothers in high school; they're playing the shit out of the XBLA games and VF5. i haven't touched it. they're playing on my account, btw...i guess they're the ones turning you down. i'm a teacher, so my schedule's hectic anyways.

even though you're a dick online, i'm sure you're a decent guy in real life, hence why i accepted your friend invitation a while ago. During that time, I mainly stuck to playing VF5.

i'll probably get another xbox, anyways (xbox elite to be pimp, of course). and yes, i do enjoy playing HF when the connection's good, even if it's rare. FYI, for HF, i mainly play Guile, Ryu, Blanka, and Honda...even Chun Li sometimes.

i'd rather play ST anyways.

Maybe sirlin will post sagat next. We have had an upper, mid and a low guy, the next one would be a top.

i'd rather they have another gutter-trash tier character...like Cammy! :wink:

chunbelievable

12-12-2007, 07:18 PM

Oh yes, were in christmas time...

Damn Sirlin gives us our update :( Me wants video too

Quick note.... don't blame the wrong person on this. There are the powers that be working here.

LeRaldo

12-12-2007, 07:21 PM

Is it even confirmed that he gets that juggling TK ? or is it all speculation ? it seems rather odd to me.

Well it hasn't been officially confirmed, but one of the posters here who might have reason to know has repeated that it does juggle.

Here's what has been said:

"With Sagat, it’s possible to do tiger knee, tiger knee, tiger knee, SUPER combo."
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200710/N07.1019.1516.29680.htm?Page=1

Others (in the previous SSFIIT:HDR thread) have disagreed with me that it means Sagat's tiger knee can now juggle, but it's the only logical thing that sentence can mean. Of course, once inkblot said it could juggle, it seemed people finally started to come around, haha

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 07:48 PM

KING

12-12-2007, 08:15 PM

guile's a pretty complete character; if it were up to me, i'd only wish to have access to all of his command-type kicks, while still keep his nice kicks like standing short (with charge) and the Roundhouse Anti-Air kick...those are enough to keep him around the same level, without buffing or nerfing him.

...if he had his rediculously long old d.forward hitbox, that'd be too sweet. :)

Spirited_Away

12-12-2007, 09:47 PM

Other then ryu who only got 1 change i think deejay, chun, n guile, only need very few if any changes.

I'd imagine there gonna make chuns fb stay onscreen and make dj's machinegun hitbox bigger while nerfing it's damage, and guile should have his HF flashkick hitbox.

DeeJay IMO only needs his old machine gun and old slide (better hit box), N.DeeJay excels in everything else normals and cancels.

According to YBH N.Guile has the best flash kick hit box, the older SF2's have a smaller box but more invulnerable frames at startup, the only "Greatest hits" Guile I can think of is just a N.Guile with Backfist while charging back he doesn't need anything else, unless you want to help him out against Dhalsim and give him back his mighty straight up jumping Fierce hitbox from WW.

orochizoolander

12-12-2007, 10:31 PM

In HF (NOT AE) guile has a gigantic flashkick hitbox it could hit you without touching you i don't doubt ur source but from what i've seen HF guile has the best flashkick but i do agree bout HF flashkick having more invulnerability on startup.

CoMeBaCk386

12-12-2007, 10:54 PM

UltraDavid

12-12-2007, 11:41 PM

"With Sagat, it’s possible to do tiger knee, tiger knee, tiger knee, SUPER combo." Of course, once inkblot said it could juggle, it seemed people finally started to come around, haha
Yeah, so, here's that conversation.
Uuuh, I dont understand where the idea that the tiger knee can juggle came from.
It's a combo.
Do you have additional info?
It's a juggle combo.
So he didn't explicitly say he has additional info, but he might be in a position to know (and his post makes it seem like it), so until I hear otherwise, I'm assuming the tiger knee now juggles.

Silks

12-13-2007, 02:00 AM

Sagat = http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4573453&postcount=1935

#4: when I say exact, I mean exact. His jumping forward kick cross-up and all.

You wanna make his tiger knee juggle too? Fine. Seems a bit dumb to me, but whatever.

orochizoolander

12-13-2007, 02:54 AM

maybe this was mentioned in a earlier thread im not sure but wat if we just made sagat play like he does in CVS2 C-groove. his tiger shots werent a major priority and his combos were actually useful. granted it would be hard to get close since sf2 doesnt have a roll but im sure their are ways to make this work that way we wont have to hear tiger tiger tiger every two seconds and actually have good fights. just a opinion

I realize this is just ur opinion n i'm not trying to flame you but it's a very bad suggestion for several reasons:

#1 This is ST not CVS2 Sirlin said he's not gonna mess with the ST formula TOO much theres a reason for this.

#2 What works in one fighting game may not and usually does not work in another this is the wrong mindset to approach the balancing/tweaking of an already great game with while ST does have it's flaws all of the characters in concept and design are perfectly balanced.

#3 Sagat by initial design was meant to be a fireballer n for any iteration of SF2 this should not be fucked with at all, however the execution of his playstyle is a different story (just look at the difference between O.sagat in ST and HF sagat)

#4 What made sagat toptier in CVS2 was his beastly combos, normals, n upclose game with which he made heavy use of his roll and RC. Neither of these mechanics appear in SF2 so i doubt CVS2 sagat minus the roll would be as effective as you'd imagine him to be though this is getting dangerously close to theory fighter territory so i'l stop.

#5 I agree it's boring to watch O.sagat do tiger all day but thats cuz he was a bit TOO good at executing his gameplan yet more or less thats the way he was made to be played like i told kingdom if u don't like it then don't pick him it's that simple. When i play HF and throw out lots of fb's i never hear anyone other then scrubs complain...it's because his fb's are pretty bad in comparison to O.sagat so i can't rely on them to win hell i can barely rely on them to do any chip:lol:

I hate beating a dead horse but thats proof that there is nothing wrong with sagat as a character it's his execution of implementing his gameplan which needs fixing.

#6 Too many ppl would bitch about his crouching fierce being broken:rofl:

Sagat = http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=4573453&postcount=1935

#4: when I say exact, I mean exact. His jumping forward kick cross-up and all.

You wanna make his tiger knee juggle too? Fine. Seems a bit dumb to me, but whatever.

I agree completely with all these changes with also O.sagats SINGLEHIT DP not N.sagats shitty multihit DP.

As for TK juggle i don't think it'l hurt his play too much i'd like to think of it as a nice tool if i happen to feel like playing rushdown ala valle, i'm sure there will be some kind of tradeoff but this looks like a wait n see type of thing.

Ouroborus

12-13-2007, 02:56 AM

wtf? since when did sagat needed RCs in cvs2?

orochizoolander

12-13-2007, 03:14 AM

LOL i only casually play CVS2 but i'd imagine C-groove sagat (one of the only grooves where u can use RC :lol:) would make use of them for his specials.

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 04:19 AM

interesting read for the mean time

History of Street Fighter - 20years of Whoop-Ass -1up (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3164853)

side note, this snow effect in the background really isnt helping my hangover. Nice avatar r-jive

.

Atb_555

12-13-2007, 05:46 AM

LOL i only casually play CVS2 but i'd imagine C-groove sagat (one of the only grooves where u can use RC :lol:) would make use of them for his specials.

You dont play CvS2 enough. He doesnt need RC to be effective.

KING

12-13-2007, 05:48 AM

#2 What works in one fighting game may not and usually does not work in another this is the wrong mindset to approach the balancing/tweaking of an already great game with while ST does have it's flaws all of the characters in concept and design are perfectly balanced.

I think it's already been established that not all of them are "perfectly balanced". Case in point: Honda...without a fireballer, he can just squat like he's taking a shit all day long.

You dont play CvS2 enough. He doesnt need RC to be effective.

Don't mind him; he bases all of his opinions on one game that he thinks he knows well, and that's HF...even though it's based on XBL HF, lol.:rolleyes:

Lonewolf_Fenrir

12-13-2007, 06:16 AM

CoMeBaCk386

12-13-2007, 06:27 AM

if u take away the million fireballs sagat was still a monster in one game all im saying is if we tone down the fireball bullshit he would be a fun character to play. and also i have seen k groove n p groove sagats destroy people and i too only play that game casually so i just think that if we bring in a sagat like that into the game it would be fun compared to just spamming tigershots all day

SaBrE

12-13-2007, 07:32 AM

sagat uses RC in cvs2? news to me

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 08:49 AM

No update yet, but new poll on the right side,

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/category/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix

Most anticipated game

Everyone vote for STHDremix maybe it will give them some incentive to release more stuff.

The Electrifying One

12-13-2007, 08:54 AM

I usually only post when there's a point of contention, but right now I just wanted to say how impressed I am with the team listening to the fans and feedback. The approach to the sound and widescreen support in particular is really something.

No matter how the balance turns out, which has been the main point of discussion here, there's no doubt in my mind this is going to be a beautifully polished package for those of us mad enough to have stuck with this 16 year old series.

MrArcadePerfect

12-13-2007, 09:41 AM

Sagat Uses Rc In Cvs2 Loool!!!

Kinniku

12-13-2007, 09:59 AM

What about translating the win quotes from the japanese version? I remember that when Fei Long beats Sagat he says something like "My kung fu is better" :D

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 10:03 AM

What about translating the win quotes from the japanese version? I remember that when Fei Long beats Sagat he says something like "My kung fu is better" :D

how about custom quotes :lol:

MrArcadePerfect

12-13-2007, 10:05 AM

how about custom quotes :lol:

now that would be good

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 10:10 AM

now that would be good

Yep, and how about having more than just two that you could then assign to buttons.

MrArcadePerfect

12-13-2007, 10:16 AM

Yep, and how about having more than just two that you could then assign to buttons.
mine will be "your not a worrior your a bitch ass!!!!!! lol

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 10:32 AM

mine will be "your not a worrior your a bitch ass!!!!!! lol

lol so much oppotunity for smack talk, it would be a great feature.

I quite like Akuma's original JP quote - "I have achieved the ultimate in the way of the fist. You shall learn the puny weakness of your body!"

just add "...now bend over" to the end :rofl:

keep voting for STHDremix!!

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/category/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix

TJ_Ernie

12-13-2007, 10:45 AM

Other then ryu who only got 1 change i think deejay, chun, n guile, only need very few if any changes.

Hogwash!
I wants me Deejay pimped up. :razzy:

MrArcadePerfect

12-13-2007, 10:59 AM

Hogwash!
I wants me Deejay pimped up. :razzy:

my opinion deejay doesn't need anything new

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 11:07 AM

my opinion deejay doesn't need anything new

no i agree with some of the changes mentioned by others, bigger hit boxes for his machine gun uppercut all to often opponents will fall out before the final hit if you arent close enough. Invincible on first couple of frames like it was in Super.

...and 2hit over head using crouch fierce, cancelable after first hit to combo in special.
*runs before people start booing* :arazz:

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 11:16 AM

lftrpllr

12-13-2007, 11:23 AM

lftrpllr

12-13-2007, 11:36 AM

For DeeJay, I'd make his moves deal a little less stun, because it's retarded that he can get one cross up combo into dizzy into combo into win; this isn't HF, that kind of stuff is really dumb. But I'm not sure how I'd make him better, honestly. Before this whole thing got started, I thought he and Ryu were just about perfect (except DeeJay's dizzy nonsense), but now that Ryu has gotten buffed, I guess DeeJay needs something too.

But yeah, it's definitely not an overhead. This game doesn't need any new overheads, and in any case if we needed to give some character a new overhead, it should be someone who depends on tricks and mixups like Blanka.

I guess if they wanted to follow suit with the "greatest hits" theme the way they could beef up Dee Jay would be to:

1) bring back his invincible mgu (mentioned before)

2) make the roundhouse 2-hit dread kick always combo like it did in SSF2.
OR
3) Or make is short up-kick have a bit more invincibility to go though fireballs

Option 1 or 3 would help him a ton in fireball fights. He could do a up kick or mgu and retain his charge to fire off a max out as soon as he landed. Maybe that's too good, hmmm.
I agree, they could tone down his dizzy rate. Wasn't there talk about making dizzies less random? That could make a huge difference by itself. I'm kind of torn what to do with the mgu as far as range, damage and dizzy. I feel that it's kind of fine how it is. It dizzies like a mofo, but the 4-hit version is pretty tough to do (consistently). The range is pretty good too. You can combo a 4-hit mgu on small characters like Chun after low jab, low short for a nice 7-hit. If the mgu easier to do in HD with any additional range, damage and dizzy power need to be nerfed for sure.

-wes

The Furious One

12-13-2007, 11:37 AM

With all the talk about making Sagat's tiger knee juggle, I wonder if other characters will be able to juggle multiple special moves? For example, if Ken scrapes you with a dp (like when Vega does the off the wall jump), will he be able to follow up with a second dp or a super to juggle? I'd imagine he could, similar to new Sagat in ST.

-wes

Yeh im also guessing ken will have that ability now, ala alpha and 3S, it will be nasty if can link a light, medium and a hard thanks to the larger range.

I agree, they could tone down his dizzy rate. Wasn't there talk about making dizzies less random? That could make a huge difference by itself. I'm kind of torn what to do with the mgu as far as range, damage and dizzy. I feel that it's kind of fine how it is. It dizzies like a mofo, but the 4-hit version is pretty tough to do (consistently). The range is pretty good too. You can combo a 4-hit mgu on small characters like Chun after low jab, low short for a nice 7-hit. If the mgu easier to do in HD with any additional range, damage and dizzy power need to be nerfed for sure.

-wes

I dont see the point of nerfing DeeJay's dizzy style, he is still ranked mid tier, Ryu and Ken are still above him.

There was talk about changing the randomness of dizzies, but I dont think that effects deejay his cross up dizzy is pretty much 100% dizzy its not so random like some Fei Long's shenanigans.

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 11:45 AM

CoMeBaCk386

12-13-2007, 12:01 PM

LOL i only casually play CVS2 but i'd imagine C-groove sagat (one of the only grooves where u can use RC :lol:) would make use of them for his specials.

i just got down time to look before i get into the idiots response.....
Dee-Jay is a great mid teir player i love messing around with him i hope they make his up-kicks somewhat similar to a DP in the fact that he can go threw fireballs. i think that will make him alittle bit easier to use against shotos... other then that he is really good all around to begin with.

sagat never needed RC and more to the point he is used more in grooves that do not have a roll ability in it so again if you dont know or understand the topic about that game dont make snappy remarks about it.... it was just a suggestion to make him fair. thats all it would make him balanced is all i am saying

vieja escuela

12-13-2007, 01:24 PM

I don't understand exactly what is Sirlin's office in Capcom or in the development of St Remix, anyway, since I consider Sirlin not only a great theoric but also a very solid St player, I was very surprised reading his articles and I'd like to express some doubts about the basics of the game design philosophy that will define the Remix.

According to Sirlin "...Next, to use my last analogy, rolling around fewer marbles is better, so it’s safer to leave the top tier than it would be to bring them down in power and have no idea who’s good anymore. ...".

Despite his explanations and the fact that "That said, there are some nerfs to the top tier", in my opinion ( and remembering his statement "My goal is to buff up the worst characters so they reach the middle (or upper middle at best). Next, buff the middle characters slightly, but not so much that they become top tier. And finally, leave the top tier characters intact." ) there is a huge theorical problem in the game design of the "rebalanced" mode.

If the principals goals were

"1) Make the game easier to play—more inclusive rather than exclusive
2) Make the game even more balanced for tournament play"

then why introducing only minor changes - or no changes at all? - in the characters that are considered "top tiers" (I don't really believe in tiers conception, at least as people normally intend the definition).

St is probably the only game that is still played "professionally" in its original form after 14 years.
One of the reasons of its success is represented by his semi-perfect balance. But to reach that balance was not easy, it took five versions of the same game and, most of all, it implied unpopular decisions that Capcom had to take.

Every player realized that, at the time of the transition from Super Sf2 to Super Sf2 Turbo.

Ken, one of the people favourites, suffered the major changes. Among other things, a new roundhouse kick that completely modified his gameplay. And since players could abuse his shoryukens, especially the light one, their priority was reduced.

Other characters were modified: I think on Honda. He lost the ability of controlling his 1000 hands while walking and he lost his high range anti air fierce.

The modification of Guile's "charging" fierce was another relevant innovation that really affected his gameplay.

People who played these characters were initially shocked and, before appreciating supers and the new moves that strengthen their favourites, they had to deal with their new weaknesses.

In order to not shock too much those players that were used to play the classic version of their characters - ie, the hardcore players who had adquired with years the automatisms that gave them their superiority over other players - Capcom let the original characters in the game to facilitate the transition. They were selectable only with a theorical "secret" code.

But the default version of the characters became the new one, with supers and modified moves.

The goal of Capcom was evident: the balance, even at the cost of displeasing its hardcore base, those fans that had played the game since Sf2, those who had made it one of the greatest success serie in the whole history of videogames, those who had made Capcom one of the richest and most powerful software house in the world.

Capcom risked a lot at that time, but the game is still played nowadays: Capcom's guts were rewarded.

Previously I said "semi perfect". Not randomly I used those terms.

Every St player knows that there are characters that are dominant in the game. Not because they are "top tier", if top tier means the strongest on an absolute plan, but because they are "the strongest in relation to the time that is necessary to learn them well and starting to win" (that's my conception of top tier).

Every player knows who are the "top tiers": Ryu, for example, the main character and therefore the greatest all rounder.

In a projectile based game like St, Ryu is superpowered. His fireballs are too fast and damaging. His double mid punch juggle is too harmful and had become easy to execute.

There are other examples. Boxer is too powerful and his dashes have too much priority (not by accident that in A3 it was decreased).

Dhalsim is another example, in St he has gained the ability of fighting hand to hand due to his new short distance moves. And on a fireball level, he can compete with Ryu (in A3, again, Sim's fireballs were weakened).

I don't even mention Super versions of the characthers because I believed they were introduced for the reasons I have explained previously. Since occidental players haven't the maturity of auto banning Super versions - such a difference with japanese gamers! -, I believe they should be formally banned from tournaments. They completely ruin that balance that Capcom was hardly trying to obtain.

In my opinion a new version of St must face those problems and solve them, if there is really a will of introducing changes in the gameplay and make a game even more balanced.

Therefore Capcom programmers should have the courage to weaken famous fans preferred characters.

But instead of that I have read that Ryu will gain a new move. And there will be a bigger windows for shoryukens inputs!

If one of the goals was to reinforce characters that are considered "mid or low tiers" - and therefore the majority of players refuse to play them - with moves modifications or simpler moves executions - ie the new "360" (can we still named it like that?) and the balance troubles that probably it will create - why refusing to logically complete the reasoning and then decreasing the overpowering capacities of top tiers?

Japanese programmers had the courage of take that decision.

But no, too many risks in really remixing fans favourites, too dangerous to disappoint those players that represent the principal economical target of the game.

And the perplexity raises when I read that the game has the goal of attracting new players.

Then what about the insane cpu level that frustrates even the experienced players? (I wrote about that in another thread).

What are going to do the hypothetical new player against St cpu if he can't even pull out a shoryuken with original St timings or he will play the game with a joypad?

By the way, the pad is another important question subestimated and solved in a questionable form. You are a young console player? You never see an arcade in your life? You cant play with joystick, you cant find it or you dont want to buy one? No problem, instead of remind you that St was born as an arcade game and must be played with a stick, you keep your pad and you will get simplified motions in Marvel vs Capcom style!

These hypothetical new gamers constitute another important target in the game design philosophy.

Nevertheless, without modifying top tiers advantages, how to expect that a new player that cant even make a fireball move will ever play a Fei Long or a Zangief, even with their simplified moves?

Movements that, moreover, because of their simplicity, only risk to ruin the balance of the game.

In facts, another laudable objective of the remix is to add more variety to the game and then avoiding the endless matches between top tiers characters played by lazy gamers who seek the easier path to the victory and even refuse the idea of learning other characters.

But without decreasing the "low efforts effectiveness" of top tiers, the probable result between indolent gamers will be the same that we have already seen in the 90s: innumerable matches Ryu vs Ryu/Ken, the same fights repeated over and over, one of the matter that had played a relevant role in the Sf decadence.

In conclusion, I hope this Remix will be a blockbuster game that will draw again the attention of the gamers towards 2d beat'em up.

But considering the analyzed premises, I am not so confiden about it.

Marty

12-13-2007, 02:16 PM

it is clear that you do not know what you're talking about

crackbone

12-13-2007, 02:25 PM

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS

Wow, that's a lot of babbling to say you think they should be nerfing the top characters.

Well, that and you think Ryu is superpowered in ST :rofl:

AzN_Skater

12-13-2007, 02:26 PM

it is clear that you do not know what you're talking about

lol.

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 02:46 PM

Then what about the insane cpu level that frustrates even the experienced players? (I wrote about that in another thread).

What are going to do the hypothetical new player against St cpu if he can't even pull out a shoryuken with original St timings or he will play the game with a joypad?
I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again now:

Do not... do not nerf the ST CPU. Difficulty settings exist for a reason.

Every version but the US arcade has laughably pathetic AI. If people want to play against the feeble JPN AI, and sweep their way to victory against every opponent, then let them play on 4-star difficulty. When I set the difficulty to 8-star, I am requesting that the game be f'ing hard.

I own the blue CPS2 board. I've beaten the game on one credit on max difficulty. Max difficulty is supposed to be a challenge.

I sincerely hope that STHD is the first home version to get the real AI.

lftrpllr

12-13-2007, 02:53 PM

ST DeeJay's a really good character, just not played much. I'd say he's definitely better than Ken and about as good as Ryu. But mainly the point is that it's really dumb that if you know how to combo (and we should assume everyone does), you can deal almost fatal damage just by landing crossup jumping forward, and that's really dumb..

Making roundhouse dread always combo sounds like a good idea, but that's not gonna buff him up like Ryu's fake fireball will. And I don't know about invincible machine gun, I mean, doesn't he already have a couple invincible-startup moves? And yeah, I guess more invincible upkick would be fine. Or like, more invincible at the area where fireballs go through, but not at the top or bottom? I just worry that that'll make it too hard for offensive characters.

How about a longer range for his slide? Maybe making his fierce max out go faster?

The 2-hit dread kick always being a combo is a pretty nice buff for him because it gives him an easy, guartenteed knock down combo that works on all characters. This of couse sets up more mix-ups.
While it's true he has moves are invincible on start up for wake ups, they really don't efficiently go thru fireballs so he's forced to match or jump fireballs. Additional range on his slide along with a slower jab max out (try guile jab sonic boom slow) might also give him some nice options to fight fireballers and control space.

COUM

12-13-2007, 02:54 PM

The problem with the ST AI isn't that the max setting is hard, but that, short of the computer dealing less damage, the lowest difficulty setting is just as hard as the max setting.

On the topic of Dee Jay, I think giving him some more lower body invincibility on his short dreadkick might be an interesting change. He has a little already, but it's only really useful for going through RH tiger shots at close range... could be a fun footsie tool if they buffed it a little.

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 03:09 PM

I thought about saying slower jab max out, but it's already really hard for Honda to get over that thing, and I don't think it needs to get even harder.

I'm fine with the upkicks getting a little more invincibility as long as it's still safe jump-able and still doesn't really hit ranged low meaty attacks.

SweetJohnnyV

12-13-2007, 03:09 PM

Stream of conciousness...

1. You need to learn how to write more concisely.

2. Ryu isn't "superpowered" in ST. He's upper mid-tier.

3. Dhalsim isn't top-tier because he's easy to learn.

4. Sirlin's balancing philosophy worked great for Puzzle Fighter. And most of the changes that have been announced thus far sound good.

5. If you're worried about the balance of the remix mode, then you should bring up specific changes that you think are problematic.

TJ_Ernie

12-13-2007, 03:40 PM

Do not... do not nerf the ST CPU. Difficulty settings exist for a reason.

Contradiction in terms my friend.
It's not about nerfing the CPU as you have stated.
It's more about fixing the difficulty levels that currently exist.
The CPU is very hard and retarded at it's easiest setting.
More so to newcomers than any one else.
I can beat the game easily using dumb tactics that don't work with human players. Just find the character's weakness and repeat the move.
But if I try to play the CPU as if it was a human, It's a whole different story.

If difficulty settings exist for a reason, then a very easy setting should play very easy. If you set it at very hard, you should expect... well, very hard.

Why is that concept so difficult to understand?

If some one wants a good challenge they select a hard level, but why do you expect or want newcomers to select VERY EASY and get mind reading CPU instead?

Where's the logic in that?

Besides, the CPU is retarded... I can do a list of complete BS it does.

Peace out!

margalis

12-13-2007, 03:44 PM

DJ is fine as is. Making his RH Rolling Sobot combo would be nice, MGU invincibility would be nice but with the addition of the upkick in ST doesn't do much for his game really, it's slow and doesn't move forward so using it to pass through fireballs has little value. Making it combo easier would be nice as well because personally I suck at that and it's hard to do on a pad.

But these are all very minor tweaks, the character is really fine as-is. Actually what I'd really like to see is the removal of the upkick entirely along with MGU invincibility. That will never happen and is just me personal crazyness, but I've never liked that ST added a bunch of upkick attacks to homogenize that characters.

About PF balancing, PF balance is very mathematical, balancing it is very different from balancing a fighting game.

Lazy Foo'

12-13-2007, 03:48 PM

Besides, the CPU is retarded... I can do a list of complete BS it does.

Yes ST's AI was irritating, not challenging.

ST's AI takes advantage of the millisecond reflexes and precise calculations to make the game artificially hard. There's no point in making the AI that hard, it will only alienate people new to Super Turbo. And due to the fact that AI doesn't really think, once you find the rediculous holes in the AI, it becomes laughably easy. All ST's AI is good for is making arcade mode frustrating for new comers and laughably easy for veterans.

When you want a challenge you play other people and thanks to ponder you can now play people all over the world in near arcade perfect conditions. The only thing the AI would be good for is for people who don't play competitively and those people tend not to be that good at ST so the AI needs to be scaled back. I would scale back the AI to SSF2 levels. It challenging enough for newcomers and not brain dead easy like Soul Calibur 3's AI where my 8 year old nephew literally beat the game blindfolded (I need to upload a video on youtube one of these days).

Also having scaled back AI would be great for achievement junkies. Having "Beat Game As Ryu, Beat Game As Ken, Beat Akuma, Beat Game without continuing" etc challenges would lure them in, and getting rid of the psychic AI makes sure they don't get frustrated and quit. When PSN finally gets home it would be great to have a Ryu winpose trophy for beating the game as him.

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 03:49 PM

Actually what I'd really like to see is the removal of the upkick entirely along with MGU invincibility. That will never happen and is just me personal crazyness, but I've never liked that ST added a bunch of upkick attacks to homogenize that characters.
Agreed.

rush down

12-13-2007, 03:58 PM

Ya I never thought about how all four of the new ST characters all have shoryuken like anti-air kicks but T.Hawk... he just uses his face.

margalis

12-13-2007, 04:22 PM

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 04:23 PM

Yes ST's AI was irritating, not challenging.

ST's AI takes advantage of the millisecond reflexes and precise calculations to make the game artificially hard. There's no point in making the AI that hard, it will only alienate people new to Super Turbo. And due to the fact that AI doesn't really think, once you find the rediculous holes in the AI, it becomes laughably easy. All ST's AI is good for is making arcade mode frustrating for new comers and laughably easy for veterans.
Personally, I found that to be the "fun" part of vs. CPU. It's like a puzzle game, where you have to find the correct move to beat each opponent. The CPU cannot and will not play like a human in any case (hello walkup flash kick), so you might as well make it challenging. And while it is possible to find each character's achilles' heel in ST (e.g. MP yoga fire vs. Dee Jay) and just spam that move, you can do exactly the same thing in other SF games, too. It's just that normally, you don't need to because you can beat the CPU anyway by playing it like a human.

In any case, this does not invalidate my statement of difficulty settings. Since blue CPS2 ST is arguably the most difficult SF CPU (near-legendary, in fact), it seems reasonable to use that as a starting point for max difficulty. I don't care what you do for the lower settings, but keep the hardest setting hard.

The only thing the AI would be good for is for people who don't play competitively and those people tend not to be that good at ST so the AI needs to be scaled back. I would scale back the AI to SSF2 levels.
Or, alternatively, you could scale the lower difficulty settings to SSF2 (or JPN ST) and leave the highest setting as is.

orochizoolander

12-13-2007, 04:28 PM

1. You need to learn how to write more concisely.

2. Ryu isn't "superpowered" in ST. He's upper mid-tier.

3. Dhalsim isn't top-tier because he's easy to learn.

4. Sirlin's balancing philosophy worked great for Puzzle Fighter. And most of the changes that have been announced thus far sound good.

5. If you're worried about the balance of the remix mode, then you should bring up specific changes that you think are problematic.

LULZ.

Other then changing MGU which will be changed (since sirlin said he modified mashing moves) i think DJ is fine as is actually if they didn't make any changes to him i'd be fine with that too.

How can yall want the AI to not be modified in some way? The AI doesn't fight you it just sits back and punishes u with stupid perfect timing and cheats on charge time n damage:rofl:

Jchensor made a great post awhile ago in the old thread about why the AI sucks but basically he said it trains u to play in a way that will hurt ur play vs any human opponent. I couldn't agree more i think the AI in STHD should feel like an actual fight instead of a lesson in pixel-perfect punishment, granted in any fighting game the AI will have patterns but IMO good AI means u can play against it the way u would against a human.

...Of course every fighting game for me is hard since i can't DP:sad:

See yall at evoworlds08!

mad possum

12-13-2007, 04:33 PM

Make the CPU hard because it plays well, not because it does stupid things like allow Guile to walk forward then Flash Kick.

As far as tweeks to Guile I say give him his old backfist back, keep all his advancing moves, and give him a more useful Super (which I doubt will happen) and he'd be fine. Actually he's pretty well balanced now, but I thought the same of Ryu.

fatboy

12-13-2007, 04:34 PM

Huge block of text that no one will read...

Dude, I am not tyring to flame here.

You need to shorten up your post and get a little clearer in the points you are trying to make.

It is too bad that you spent a lot of time writing something that few people will read.

I am sure you made some great points for discussion. But as I said no one will really read it.

Just trying to help brotha! :wgrin:

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 04:34 PM

Not every characters needs a reversal with some invincibility that takes them off the ground. It just seemed lazy.
Two of those characters had those already (SBK, backflips), so that's probably not a good example. And it's kind of hard to find fault in Capcom giving Dee Jay a new "generic reversal move" that has less invincibility than the one he had to start with (and stripping the invincibility out of his existing move).

There's a difference between "homogenizing the cast" and "giving characters a well-developed toolset." If you want to complain about homogenization, I'd look at Kikoken or Ochio before I looked at upkicks (either) or kickflip.

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 04:38 PM

How can yall want the AI to not be modified in some way? The AI doesn't fight you it just sits back and punishes u with stupid perfect timing and cheats on charge time n damage:rofl:

Jchensor made a great post awhile ago in the old thread about why the AI sucks but basically he said it trains u to play in a way that will hurt ur play vs any human opponent. I couldn't agree more i think the AI in STHD should feel like an actual fight instead of a lesson in pixel-perfect punishment, granted in any fighting game the AI will have patterns but IMO good AI means u can play against it the way u would against a human.
Again, I don't see how this is in conflict with my request.

Do whatever the hell you want with the lower settings. But the hardest setting should be HARD; cheap, even. And blue ST is unquestionably harder than the rest. So that's a good measuring stick for the hardest setting.

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 04:46 PM

The point about homogenization is that Chun's and DJ's upkicks and Claw's flipkick homogenized wakeups for those characters. Whereas these characters all had to act and react differently while waking up, had to antiair their opponents differently, and had to play to their strengths and try not to get in a knockdown situation, now they all have charge moves that serve as good antiairs and fine meaty killers. There was no reason for these characters to get good new reversals, they were still good characters without it, and to the extent that they needed buffing, Capcom should have buffed their differences instead of giving them slightly different variations of the same move.

I think ochio is unnecessary too, and I'd be fine with losing that (even as a Honda player). But that isn't as much a homogenization as the upkicks/flipkick.

And while we're on things we'd like to see but know won't happen, I'd like to see Boxer lose the headbutt and gain his invincible taps again (but with all his new normals etc). That character design was so much more interesting and varied in my opinion.

RoboKrikit

12-13-2007, 04:49 PM

I'd love to see revamped AI, with an easier easy and very hard hard setting. Even better, a more human-like AI that makes mistakes and doesn't just rely on punishing you with psychic timing.

But considering this started as a simple art-replacement-only project (and luckily for us got some extra budget to expand to a gameplay-semantics-revamp), I would be pretty surprised to see a rewritten AI. We'll probably be getting the Dreamcast SSF2X AI, maybe with minor modifications. Every little thing they change in the game is going to add cost and development and QA time, meaning more money and waiting for all of us.

If the online play is as good as we're expecting, most people won't care much about the CPU AI, so it'll be less likely to get time/cash spent on it.

On the other hand, Udon's doing new artwork (and I'm guessing someone's doing new music) for the endings and such, so there's at least some attention being paid to single player mode.

Edit: Man, I got spoiled with that warm mug of SFHD blog update every week. I feel empty inside, now. Empty.

The Mullah

12-13-2007, 05:08 PM

i don't see the need for increased up kicks invincibility. having to jump over fireballs is a great thing about ST. This train of thought is why they added parry to sf3.

if anything is given to DJ i think it should be something new and interesting.

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 05:17 PM

The point about homogenization is that Chun's and DJ's upkicks and Claw's flipkick homogenized wakeups for those characters.
I don't see how you can argue that upkicks homogenized Dee Jay's wakeups at all. He went from one high-invincibility option (that requires a down charge) to a new option with lesser invincibility (that also requires a down charge) . It's not like there was some ultra-deep mindgame over what special he was going to wakeup with in SSF2.

And honestly, if you want to complain about homogenization, there are simply better targets to pick (supers?). I'm not saying that everyone should have a tool for every situation, but particularly given the rather extreme emphasis on throws in SF2, giving characters a more reliable means of escaping ticks (as it is for Chun/Claw) seems pretty reasonable to me.

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 05:27 PM

SweetJohnnyV

12-13-2007, 06:50 PM

Do whatever the hell you want with the lower settings. But the hardest setting should be HARD; cheap, even. And blue ST is unquestionably harder than the rest. So that's a good measuring stick for the hardest setting.

That'd be fine with me. Go ahead and leave the hardest setting so that Spider Dan can torture himself :wgrin: However, I really hope the lower settings for the AI become much less retarded than they are now.

My biggest gripe with the ST AI is that it plays like a robot. If you try to play against it legitimately it will straight out beat almost any move you throw out. You hit a button and on that frame it goes "hmm...what beats that? OK BAM!". I think even just adding a smally delay to the AI's brain would make it feel a lot better. Find out what the average person's reaction time is and make the computer look at that frame, instead of the current one.

As is, the AI is useless for any decent players to train against. But for the masses, I think it's even worse. Most likely, they'll fire this up in single player mode to (re-)learn the game before going to get their ass kicked online. And I think it'll really turn a lot of casual gamers off if the AI beats them down hard. In fact, when Hyper Fighting was released for the 360, I believe a lot of the reviewers bitched about the same thing.

mad possum

12-13-2007, 06:57 PM

Spider-Dan

12-13-2007, 07:06 PM

I'm not a big fan of supers, but I don't think they're as guilty of homogenizing the characters. ST's useful supers don't really homogenize the characters, they accentuate the characters' strengths.
???

They do exactly the opposite, which is why match dynamics tend to change dramatically when, for example, Boxer or Chun get meter. Tactics that they normally have a great deal of trouble dealing with instantly become easily defeatable, and the entire strategy of the match changes greatly while that tiny bar is flashing.

I hardly call that "accentuating a strength."

Corner-Trap

12-13-2007, 07:28 PM

Damn, when did y'all make a new thread?

UltraDavid

12-13-2007, 08:00 PM

Ryu becomes better with fireball games, Boxer rushes down better, and Chun just becomes better all around, which is fine because she's an all-around kind of character. Again, I'm not a big fan of supers, but the reasons I don't like these three are mostly separate from the homogenization argument.

orochizoolander

12-13-2007, 11:18 PM

DJ's upkick is a homogenization in that it's another down charge move with risk, use, and payoff that are too similar to those of Guile's flashkick, Chun's upkick, and Claw's flipkick; even Boxer has his headbutt now, which has some different characteristics but at heart is the same idea. Whereas before only Guile had a flashkick, all those characters now have them, and whereas before all those characters had to deal with waking up and antiairing differently, now they all have wakeup moves and antiairs that play in ways that are, for me, just too similar.

I'm not a big fan of supers, but I don't think they're as guilty of homogenizing the characters. ST's useful supers don't really homogenize the characters, they accentuate the characters' strengths.

I agree it is homogenizing of the cast when 4 characters have very similar reversals however i don't think it matters cuz that's just a small part of their overall game and they play differently enough to make having the same reversals almost a non-issue with me.

What do u you suggest the alternative be? That we simply take them out? Substitute different moves for them? IMO it works for them pretty well n it's not perfect but a better solution hasn't presented itself as of yet.

Ryu becomes better with fireball games, Boxer rushes down better, and Chun just becomes better all around, which is fine because she's an all-around kind of character. Again, I'm not a big fan of supers, but the reasons I don't like these three are mostly separate from the homogenization argument.

Like you said supers in concept are supposed to accentuate a characters strengths and they do to some extent, however i agree with spider-dan who sounds like he's saying supers in ST are too much of a "get out of jail for free card". The damage dealt by supers is a lil too high n as a direct result sometimes it's hard to differentiate between when having meter helps a character play their game better n when having meter makes it too easy for a character to play their game.

A simple solution suggested by ultradavid in the old thread is to nerf super damage across the board 10-20% This would solve alot of problems i hope everyone wants this so Sirlin can implement this into STHD.

Does anyone think the lifebar should be increased at all for STHD? I myself am unsure because there are pros and cons to it and it's a big game changer if implemented but it is something to think/debate about while we wait for the next update:wonder:

Leebee Link

12-13-2007, 11:42 PM

I don't think that lifebars should get any bigger because it would take away the whole always at risk factor that ST has going for it, but i think damage from supers should be toned down a little.

TJ_Ernie

12-14-2007, 12:12 AM

What I meant is that in ST Chun, Vega and DJ all got DP-like reversals. Part of what made those characters more unique is that they lacked those moves. Vega has a lot of anti-air options if he has the right range and time but when someone was in his face there wasn't much he could do. Same with Chun. DJ could use the MGU but it did almost no damage, which meant using things like standing strong, standing fierce, standing forward instead if you could.

Not every characters needs a reversal with some invincibility that takes them off the ground. It just seemed lazy.

That said, the chance of them being removed is exactly zero and it's not like I'm really concerned about it either way, it's just always been a pet peeve of mine.

Dood, I understand your point of view on how adding DP style moves to characters homogenized SF2. Believe me, I do. I honestly hope this is not the case with SF4.

But this is ST and DJ's upkick has grown to be part of his arsenal.
You do realize that removing his upkick would nerf the fuck out of him, right?
Ryu just got a fake fireball that will surely improve his character. Ryu was already slightly above DJ tier-wise. He definetly needs to be improved now.

Any hoo, DJ is one of my favs so i'm gonna be partial towards any nerfs to him.
Please! Don't fuck up my nigga. hehe. :rofl:

RagingStormX

12-14-2007, 12:34 AM

vieja escuela

12-14-2007, 02:00 AM

it is clear that you do not know what you're talking about

Wow, great arguments.

vieja escuela

12-14-2007, 02:12 AM

1. You need to learn how to write more concisely.

Instead of giving unrequested writing lessons, try to learn basic education: if you are not interested or you can't read a message, don't do it. Nobody will force you to read it. Or to reply.

2. Ryu isn't "superpowered" in ST. He's upper mid-tier.

I expressed my point of view through an arguing. Thing that you are not doing.

3. Dhalsim isn't top-tier because he's easy to learn.

I hope you meant "hard to learn".

4. Sirlin's balancing philosophy worked great for Puzzle Fighter.

Ot.

And most of the changes that have been announced thus far sound good.

Again, not arguing.

5. If you're worried about the balance of the remix mode, then you should bring up specific changes that you think are problematic.

I have done it. It's in the message, read it. If you want it.

The Furious One

12-14-2007, 02:46 AM

I was hoping to wake up to an update. oh well.

Don't forget to vote for STHDremix

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/category/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix

CptMunta

12-14-2007, 04:00 AM

I quite like Akuma's original JP quote - "I have achieved the ultimate in the way of the fist. You shall learn the puny weakness of your body!"

Have you got a link to all the translated quotes? Been hunting for a translation for a while.

I remember the Japanese version having two quotes per character. I'd be keen to see what they were all on about. :wonder:

The Furious One

12-14-2007, 04:38 AM

Have you got a link to all the translated quotes? Been hunting for a translation for a while.

I remember the Japanese version having two quotes per character. I'd be keen to see what they were all on about. :wonder:

No not anymore, I used to have a couple of EGM mags that featured ST, I threw them all out but kept the character strategy guide. :sad:

COUM

12-14-2007, 06:52 AM

Instead of giving unrequested writing lessons, try to learn basic education: if you are not interested or you can't read a message, don't do it. Nobody will force you to read it. Or to reply.

you really do need to write more concisely tho

Marty

12-14-2007, 07:51 AM

Wow, great arguments.

not arguing.

stating.

edit:

I hope you meant "hard to learn".

Holy shit are you actually serious? No one can be this dumb. No, I won't accept it.

MiLky

12-14-2007, 08:01 AM

Holy shit are you actually serious? No one can be this dumb. No, I won't accept it.

Heh, at least I didn't have to say it.

Oops, did I say that out loud, I meant subscribes to SF:HD thread part 2.

The Furious One

12-14-2007, 08:09 AM

Heh, at least I didn't have to say it.

Oops, did I say that, I meant subscribes to SF:HD thread part 2.

:lol:

Personally I never liked it when people pick the o.characters, but that would be because I never played Super and don't know their pro's and con's

Don't forget to vote for STHDremix

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/category/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix

True Karate

12-14-2007, 09:19 AM

what speed do players play the OG ST on in tourneys? 2 or 3. I cant do Fei's triangle kick on 3 so I hope 2.

thanks in advance

Outro

The Furious One

12-14-2007, 09:24 AM

what speed do players play the OG ST on in tourneys? 2 or 3. I cant do Fei's triangle kick on 3 so I hope 2.

thanks in advance

Outro

3 isnt it. I have trouble doing fei's chicken wing, but its easier if you use light or medium strength kick instead of hard.

Ansatsuken-TKD

12-14-2007, 10:47 AM

I quite like Akuma's original JP quote - "I have achieved the ultimate in the way o