What's the beef with Custom/Variable combo's?

[The Illuminati]

Why do shoryuken heads hate Custom/Varibale combo's, I just don't get it. What's the beef with them? :wonder:

[EveryFlowerFlow]

they're generally overpowered in every game they are in.

[The Illuminati]

they're generally overpowered in every game they are in.

How so?

The only game I can think of that over powers CC/VC is Alpha 2. I'm not surprised that they're good, but over powered when one hit deactivates them?

[Spinning Beat]

Genei Jin!

[Helter Skelter]

The problem is, no one actually customizes or varies their combos in the first place.
They just do the same powerful/broken CC/VC everytime, and it looks fucking crap.

[goodm0urning]

Because they eventually grow to dominate every game they're in, and odds are that most high level matches will devolve into CC-fests sooner or later. It homogenizes and boringifies the games.


(Yeah, boringify. New word. Learn it, SRK.)

[KayinNasaki]

The problem is, no one actually customizes or varies their combos in the first place.
They just do the same powerful/broken CC/VC everytime, and it looks fucking crap.

Thats not -the- problem. It may be -a- problem, but still.

A2 = Really good. Valle CCs
A3 = Leads to CC infinites that also refill meter. YAY.
CVS2 = They just do a LOT of damage and make A groove THE roll groove
3S = Yun is bullsht

[SwmmrManShen]

i agree with the previously stated remarks, but would like to point out a fairly major exception, yang SA3. Those dont seem to be all that great.

[The Illuminati]

Because they eventually grow to dominate every game they're in, and odds are that most high level matches will devolve into CC-fests sooner or later. It homogenizes and boringifies the games.


(Yeah, boringify. New word. Learn it, SRK.)

I've heard people say the samething about:Tiers, Fireballs, and ST model for supers.
There are always gonna be things that dominate the game, I dont see how that makes it boring. Furthermore, VC/CC rarely breaks the games.

[Return of Shiki]

Thats not -the- problem. It may be -a- problem, but still.

A2 = Really good. Valle CCs
A3 = Leads to CC infinites that also refill meter. YAY.
CVS2 = They just do a LOT of damage and make A groove THE roll groove
3S = Yun is bullsht

Don't forget Duo Lon in KOF 2003, like he really needed CCs on top of all the other bullshit he had.

[The Illuminati]

A3 = Leads to CC infinites that also refill meter. YAY.



Which only a handful of people have.

[lw3]

Which only a handful of people have.

and their also top tier

[The Illuminati]

and their also top tier


No, they are not mid and upper tier cats have CC infinites. Whens the last time you seen a top tier character with CC infinite? Furthermore they are hard as shit to do especially in a match. You take like one pixel of damage for every hit.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

and their also top tier


they're not actually. no one in the (traditional) top tier in a3 has an infinite.




How so?

The only game I can think of that over powers CC/VC is Alpha 2.



v-ism and genei jin spring to mind.



I'm not surprised that they're good, but over powered when one hit deactivates them?

Sure 1 hit deactivates them... if you're using them incorrectly.

dunno about a2 (which has that blowback nonsense anyway) but all cc's in 2d capcom fighters have invincibility at the start allowing you to bait attacks, activate through them using the invincibility, then hit your opponent with cc. the opponent never gets the chance to throw the "one hit"

[lw3]

guess i was mis informed

[The Illuminati]

v-ism and genei jin spring to mind.

Hmm, well Genei-Jin has some broke properties that makes it stands out from your typical CC/VC type super. I wouldn't really count that, but fair game. I already admitted that there have been games with bad CC/VC properties [Alpha 2]. But, I mean other than that they aren't broken for one and the arguments against seem
weak. I mean to each their own, but it seems like people forget that CC/VC are supers. So, when someone uses them, why shouldn't they be a threat?



Sure 1 hit deactivates them... if you're using them incorrectly.

dunno about a2 (which has that blowback nonsense anyway) but all cc's in have invincibility at the start allowing you to bait attacks activate through them, then hit your opponent with cc. the opponent never get the chance to throw the "one hit"

The same can be said for traditional SF type games. What I mean by that is supers would really punish shit. CC are supers, if someone has a full meter with VC/CC then you just gotta play the sameway you play when ever anyone has a meter.

[pherai]

I've heard people say the samething about:Tiers, Fireballs, and ST model for supers.

First off, tiers are not a game mechanic or strategy, so they can't dominate a game.

You have to be pretty dense to not realize that CC's trump every other strategy in almost every game. Every game they are in, the best characters are the characters that have, or can best utilize CC's. It's probably the only FG mechanic that has been consistently an indicator whether a character will be top tier, over several different series (Alpha, CvS2, 3s). They are just always on a higher level than traditional supers.

Also, I would imagine people don't like how CC's tend to disengage the player, especially the one on the receiving end. At least when dealing with a fireball trap, you are constantly looking for an out, and usually have an option, although a bit risky. If done right, there is no way out of the big damage of a CC. You just sit back, and figure out what to do on wake up.

EDIT: Seiei Enbu is a good example of a CC done right. It could even use some beefing up maybe...but to be safe, that's a big maybe.

[Kyokuji]

Which only a handful of people have.
Cody, Ken, Chun-li, Sodom, Ryu, Blanka, Birdie, Claw, Boxer, Gen, Rose, Karin, Sagat, Rolento.
That's more than a handful --though, granted, some of those guys are arguably better on A.

Even without infinites, they're pretty overpowered in A3. Guys like Akuma and 'Gief have VCs that do like 90% damage, and even lesser characters like Cody and Sodom can easily hit you for 70%. A3's guard meter is tiny too, so you can activate and just blow through the other guy's guard with certain characters if they don't have meter for an AC.

The gist of it is that CCs are too multi-purpose and they do too much damage.
You jump-in, they activate; you lose.
You whiff, they activate; you lose.
They jump-in, you try to anti-air, they activate through it; you lose.
You get knocked down without meter, they unblockable; you lose.

The only way to counter any of this shit is to have activations ready yourself, which means switching to V-ISM/A-Groove. V-ISM got meter back crazy fast as well, so you could be activating almost constantly. They're at minimal risk from missing activations unless you've got an activation yourself as well.

[Hitaro0]

they're not actually. no one in the (traditional) top tier in a3 has an infinite.
IIRC, the only two characters that are considered top tier that use another mode is A-Guy and A-Sim.
And who the hell cares about the "traditional tier list", specifically the "traditional" part?

[COUM]

IIRC, the only two characters that are considered top tier that use another mode is A-Guy and A-Sim.

What on earth does that have to do with what he said?

[The Illuminati]

Even without infinites, they're pretty overpowered in A3. Guys like Akuma and 'Gief have VCs that do like 90% damage, and even lesser characters like Cody and Karin can easily hit you for 70%. A3's guard meter is tiny too, so you can activate and just blow through the other guy's guard with certain characters if they don't have meter for an AC.

CCs are too multi-purpose and they do too much damage.



1) Unless you know what your doing, V-ism is just gonna lead to a wasted meter since one hit= End of Super.

2) But, if they have a meter for Alpha counter, your done.

As for them doing too much damage, the same can be said fir traditional SF supers. I've never heard someone complain that ST sucks because they take too much damage.

[Se7in]

How so?

The only game I can think of that over powers CC/VC is Alpha 2. I'm not surprised that they're good, but over powered when one hit deactivates them?

The only game?

CC's are the easily the best choice in EVERY Alpha game they were featured in.

CvS2 had A-Groove. It essentially allowed thing such as the PTF and ShoSho which can easily destroy 75-100% of a character's vitality just by landing a hit with activation on.

Then in Third Strike you had Genei Jin, which was the main thing that made Yun top tier. It allowed him to juggle opponents inescapably and use a move that shouldn't have been comboable into itself., Kara Palm. This was just as deadly and broken as the two in CvS2.

It destroys the fighting game by allowing people to not employ strategies or zone the opponent. It allows people to win by seeing who can memorize a premade combo the best, build meter first, and attack the opponent who has no ability to counterattack once caught with a single hit.

[Gasp]

The problem is, no one actually customizes or varies their combos in the first place.
They just do the same powerful/broken CC/VC everytime, and it looks fucking crap.

if something does the high possible damage why would you wanna differ from it?

No, they are not mid and upper tier cats have CC infinites. Whens the last time you seen a top tier character with CC infinite? Furthermore they are hard as shit to do especially in a match. You take like one pixel of damage for every hit.

of course here CC= crouch cancel not custom combo
concerning the last part
the damage isn't much of a problem. if you watch good japanese matches (ask TS) alot of the matches are cropped because say around 61 seconds a balrog player gets a karin player in a cc infinite,to 14 seconds. thats A HUGE time gap. so not only is the balrog player in the lead health and meter wise, the karin player has little time to play catch up to him, which can lead the karin player rushing down and changing her plan. CCS if done correctly are insane control tools. no other game has that strong of a control as to decide give the player a choice as to when the match continues.

im pretty sure everyone else has got the other games covered.


(dont EVER write off difficulty of techniques as impossible in real matches CCs ARE hard honestly if it gives a player as such a huge advantage as ccs do, you best believe they'll master that shit kara palming? hayao gigas? TKDs? cps1 cancels kattobi cancels roll cancels. all these are hard as fuck to learn but people will do all they can to master it and cc's are no different at least they have a timing/tempo to it)

[The Illuminati]

The only game?

CC's are the easily the best choice in EVERY Alpha game they were featured in.

How does that make it broken?

So, all top strats are broken now?



CvS2 had A-Groove. It essentially allowed thing such as the PTF and ShoSho which can easily destroy 75-100% of a character's vitality just by landing a hit with activation on.

Not all A groove combo's are 100% :\

You can't use one example for general rule.





It destroys the fighting game by allowing people to not employ strategies or zone the opponent. It allows people to win by seeing who can memorize a premade combo the best, build meter first, and attack the opponent who has no ability to counterattack once caught with a single hit.

Despite the fact that you can neutralise it with a single hit?

And, how does it not take strategy to use it?
Random VC/CC get you shot down unless you have strats on how to use it?
Taking damge with VC/CC is not only about memorizations of combo's, homey.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

IIRC, the only two characters that are considered top tier that use another mode is A-Guy and A-Sim.
And who the hell cares about the "traditional tier list", specifically the "traditional" part?


traditional has nothing to do with the mode but the differences between japanese and us tier list. The last I heard the Japanese had sodom (who can cc inf) in the top tier, we don't.

snip


kyokuji said what I would have responded with.



edit:



Despite the fact that you can neutralise it with a single hit?



I don't know why you keep emphasizing this as if you're actually making a point. It's moot because of the fact that opponent can't get the hit.

[Kyokuji]

Whens the last time you seen a top tier character with CC infinite?

Uh, Akuma and 'Gief don't need one. Their VCs already do 90-95% damage. Plus Akuma's are unblockable and do-able off a knockdown.
Dhalsim doesn't need VCs since you'll have a hell of a time getting anywhere near him anyway, and Sakura has mountains of priority along with high damage VCs.

Tiers in A3 aren't decided by infinites. It's based on a lot of things, but one of the big ones is a combination of VC damage and how versatile that character's VCs are. People like Sakura, Karin, Sagat, Akuma, Sodom and Cody can activate on you in a dozen different scenarios.

[The Illuminati]

Uh, Akuma and 'Gief don't need one. Their VCs already do 90-95% damage. Plus Akuma's are unblockable and do-able off a knockdown.
Dhalsim doesn't need VCs since you'll have a hell of a time getting anywhere near him anyway, and Sakura has mountains of priority along with high damage VCs.

Tiers in A3 aren't decided by infinites, but by a combination of VC damage and how versatile that character's VCs are. People like Sakura, Karin, Akuma, Sodom and Cody can activate on you in a dozen different scenarios.

I know that, was just correcting someone who thought that CC infinites=Top Tier.




I don't know why you keep emphasizing this as if you're actually making a point. It's moot because of the fact that opponent can't get the hit.


Except that he can unless he's caught.:confused:

[goodm0urning]

I've heard people say the samething about:Tiers, Fireballs, and ST model for supers.
There are always gonna be things that dominate the game, I dont see how that makes it boring.When something is boring to watch and boring to play against, that typically qualifies it for being boring in general.

Not that all A-groove players are boring, but the ones who are entertaining are the ones who bring something else to the table besides their ability to shoshosho.

[Kyokuji]

Why are you talking about single hit neutralizations anyway? The only time you activate is through someone's whiff or as an anti-air.

You know what, even then, people like Sodom/Cody/Ryu/Sagat can still activate empty and just push you into the corner. If you try to throw anything out that isn't a perfectly reversal timed DP, you'll get hit, launched and finished. If you do nothing, you get guard crushed and you lose anyway.

I can activate from full screen with Dhalsim and just spam fireballs/s. MP/s. FP and there isn't really shit you can do about it.

[KingofGlory777]

Another reason why Genei Jin is bullshit? YUN CAN BLOCK!

[The Illuminati]

Why are you talking about single hit neutralizations anyway? The only time you activate is through someone's whiff or as an anti-air.



To show that it's not broken.



You know what, even then, people like Sodom/Cody/Ryu/Sagat can still activate empty and just push you into the corner. If you try to throw anything out that isn't a perfectly reversal timed DP, you'll get hit, launched and finished.




Seems to me people dislike games that heavily punish mistakes. If Someone activates a VC, you just gotta be more defensive since your facing off against a super that requires equally perfectly executed attacks and strats.

[Kyokuji]

Another reason why Genei Jin is bullshit? YUN CAN BLOCK!

It doesn't cancel on hit either. I don't know what Capcom was smoking. If he lost it on a jab, it would even things out a lot, since you can't use it to activate through stuff like other CCs.

[Hisham]

To show that it's not broken.




Seems to me people dislike games that heavily punish mistakes. If Someone activates a VC, you just gotta be more defensive since your facing off against a super that requires equally perfectly executed attacks and strats.

Yeah, but when everybody makes sure to either hit confirm (3S) or only use it when you whiff a hit/jump in, then what is the point of the 1 hit deactivation. They will still get you regardless..

Only time the 1 hit deactivation is a problem for the character with the CC is if the person doesn't know how to use them... And I have no problem with getting punished for my mistake, but getting hit off 90% in CvS2 by Bison is too much... And same could be said for some others...

[The Illuminati]

Only time the 1 hit deactivation is a problem for the character with the CC is if the person doesn't know how to use them...

And I have no problem with getting punished for my mistake, but getting hit off 90% in CvS2 by Bison is too much... And same could be said for some others...


:rofl: C'mon guys let's be realistic here, your talking about a feature that requires exact timing or it doesn't do jack. If you mess up a VC combo [which happens all the time in high level matches] chances are that your meter run out or your hit. Your honestly insinuating that a good player will never be hit in VC?:confused:

Supers taking big damage is not exclusive to CC in CVS2.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

Except that he can unless he's caught.:confused:

The point is that you'd activate only in situation kyokuji describes, where they would get caught.

duh.


lol @ you thinking just because you can't activate at full screen (which genei-jin actually can) or some equally stupid scenario means CC isn't overpowered.

[SaBrE]

lemme get this out of the way really quick, a-guy is NOT top tier in a3. hes solid, but not a top character.

cc's in all 2d capcom fighters are just very dominant. they all get invincible startup, and usually do a ton of damage compared to using a super and getting less damage out of it.

i like cc's, and i hate em at the same time. A big problem with cc's is the fact that you get invincibility off just hitting 2 buttons together(3 in the case of a2), leading to a big high damage combo. Lets take a3 for instance, and we'll use charlie as a very generic example. if an opponent is jumping in on charlie, and charlie wants to land big damage, if hes in A-ism, he can do flash kick super. if he's in V, he can use his vc as an anti air. charlie's vc's are more powerful than his supers, by far. if opponent jumps in on a-charlie and he wants to use super, he has to go through the whole super motion in time before he gets jump kicked, and if charlie doesnt react in time, that super aint gonna cut it. yet if you are given the same situation but it's v-charlie instead, you can react to the jump at the same time as you did when you were a-charlie, except now, all you have to do is hit 2 buttons, get a shit ton of invincibility, and the jumper is toast.

basically, countering and landing damage off reaction is so much easier, stronger, and more efficient than doing a super, since its a simple 2 button press vs a complex motion that takes time to execute. on top of that, not everyones supers are good in the invincibility dept, yet everyones inv. is good with a vc or cc.

that alone will always make cc the best, over super usage. also the fact if you miss the initial attack, you are still in cc/vc mode and still have plenty of chances to do massive chip daamge, guard crush, unblockables, or mixups and still land good damage, even if you fucked up your startup and missed the combo. and all the opponent can do, usually, is stand there and hope he doesnt get hit. yet with a super(not counting supers with cc abilities or similar, like yun, yang, oro, etc), you bust it out once, and miss, thats it, its blocked right then and there and its over. no more fear.

cc's is a dominant concept. its very fun, however. i do think its silly to say vc's in a3 are broken or ridiculous and say a2's cc isnt. Or even vice versa. both do ridiculous damage, and both version can land damage insanely effectively. its absurd to call one bs, and not the other, when both are bs. just coems down to the fact of which bs you prefer to deal with.

and in all honesty, i think with a2 is more balanced with cc's, since it gives damn near everyone (except bison and birdie) a reliable way to land huge damage and keep em in the game. thats just an IMO tho, im sure many will disagree and thats cool.

the other problems with cc, in the case of a2, is that they are very very simple to execute and for super high damage. plus if you activate when opponent is stand, he cant block low and its a free combo. in the case of a3, the invincibility window on startup is extremely huge, and the fact that crouch cancels tacked on at the end of the vc can lead to an infinite with a couple characters(top tier dont have infinites, unless you think v-sagat is top), or lead to free meter, putting you back at the 50% meter mark, so you always have a vc ready for counter activation or whenever. and the same applies with yun genei jin.

theres really no negative aspects to cc's. while there is to supers. but in defense to cc modes, atleast to a3's vc, it takes a lot practice to learn the vc's for whichever character, and a very good knowledge of the flip out engine to string together and make your own vc's if you choose, or understand why they work, and it takes even more knowledge and such to transition into a crouch cancel from it. takes a long while to understand that shit and get it down. so i dont think its really scrubby in a3, just overly dominant. a2's can be considered scrubby since it takes like 30 seconds to learn the strongest cc's for all characters. but on the bright side, it makes the game more accessible to more players, wheras it doesnt in a3...

just my 2 cents, i was bored

[Ghettoontherise]

My issue with CCs isn't necessarily the damage (though they're usually ridiculous in terms of damage), but the ease in which you get it. Lemme explain. With traditional supers, outside of a FEW exceptions, you combo into it traditionally(short short super and whatnot), or you catch someone with an anti air. With CC's, a lot of times, the simplest hit with result in you losing all your life (bison scissor, jump mp for example). It makes pokes that wouldn't mean so much all that much more powerful. It's a lot easier to land that custom with bison than it is to find a way to use his mega psycho crusher. Yun is the same way. He activates and if you lose less than 10-15% of your health, either the Yun player isn't very good, or you got VERY lucky. They force the risk/reward ratio way too much into their favor.

Then there's the meter issue. For the life of me I can't understand why they can't ever seem to get this right. CvS2 was closest but it's still kinda eh. Sure there's the argument that you can hit them once and they're knocked out of it (cept for Yun of course). But in every game, they get to keep a portion of their bar. So what if they get knocked out of it. In about 20 seconds they'll be trying for that super damage combo again. What if I roll through/jump over/AC a super and punish it. Does that person deserve a part of their meter back for fuckin up? Capcom seems to think so with CC/VC/and such. Plus building meter for bars like that is always too easy. It's never long enough I don't think. I always wondered how different CvS2 would be if they switched the meter lengths for a groove and p groove.

[The Illuminati]

The point is that you'd activate only in situation kyokuji describes, where they would get caught.

duh.


lol @ you thinking just because you can't activate at full screen (which genei-jin actually can) or some equally stupid scenario means CC isn't overpowered.


No, I said that and the fact that it's not easy to pull of real damaging shit. Maybe it is domineering But, I never said they were not, I just stated that they were not broken/over powered.



You have to be pretty dense to not realize that CC's trump every other strategy in almost every game. Every game they are in, the best characters are the characters that have, or can best utilize CC's. It's probably the only FG mechanic that has been consistently an indicator whether a character will be top tier, over several different series (Alpha, CvS2, 3s). They are just always on a higher level than traditional supers.


You mean like supers dominate fighting games? seriously, it's not like gaining meter was not not important before CC. At the end of the day there is still room for strats even with CC just like there are with supers.

[Corner-Trap]

Games with CC's generally devolve into

1) Build meter
2) Activate / Counter activate
3) Combo of death

[The Illuminati]

Games with CC's generally devolve into

1) Build meter
2) Activate / Counter activate
3) Combo of death

As long as games have super meters, that will always be true.

[goodm0urning]

Supers are as all-encompassingly dominant as CCs? You crack me up.

[The Illuminati]

Supers are as all-encompassingly dominant as CCs? You crack me up.

What strawman, can you quote me where I said that?

The complaints for CC are the same that can be put on supers:

Invincibility on start up
Unblockables
Major damage

None of those things are exclusive to CC.

The only reason why CC are superior to supers is that you can control the outcome more.

[woof]

generic supers do not igve the same kind of benefits as a generic CC soo not really

[EveryFlowerFlow]

I just stated that they were not broken/over powered.

Really, I see. So then, certain lv1 cc's doing ~40%, V-ism being the best mode in a3, genei-jin being the best super in 3s, A-groove even with it's slight nerfing is still one of the best modes in cvs2 is all down to coincidence then.


my bad, didn't know.

[The Illuminati]

generic supers do not igve the same kind of benefits as a generic CC soo not really

Yet, most of the shit that people complain about for CC can be found in supers. It's just the two button activation and the fact that you can control the outcome. two differences, gimmie a damn break.

Really, I see. So then, certain lv1 cc's doing ~40%, V-ism being the best mode in a3, genei-jin being the best super in 3s, A-groove even with it's slight nerfing is still one of the best modes in cvs2 is all down to coincidence then.


my bad, didn't know.


How does that make it broken, unless you have your own definition.:rolleyes:

-Genei-Jin being the best super in 3s is debatable.

-A-groove being viable means what exactly? If it's not the best, then your point is moot.

- The other Ism's are still playable though.

[Ghettoontherise]

-Genei-Jin being the best super in 3s is debatable.

I would love an explanation on that.

[Giza]

I love them in Sonic the Fighters

[goodm0urning]

I would love an explanation on that.As would I.

[The Illuminati]

I'm still living in 2003, my bad.

[Master Chibi]

They're gay.

There I win.

Give me a muffin.

[EveryFlowerFlow]

How does that make it broken, unless you have your own definition.:rolleyes:




I've never said broken, I said overpowered. And it consistantly being the best super option in every game is proof enough of that. I don't know what else to tell you if you can't understand that.

[jae hoon]

As would I.

I bet he says Chun SA 2 or Ken SA3, which are still nowhere near as bad as Genei Jin.

[Giza]

-Genei-Jin being the best super in 3s is debatable.
Total Destruction, right?

[Corner-Trap]

Genei-jin is debateable? How so? It's an incredibly short meter that charges very quickly, meaning you can get it full multiple times in a single round, yet it does 40% or more damage. What other super in 3S is nearly that good?

[Hisham]

He obviously means Seraphic Wing!

Hahah.

[Lv.32 Z-Ism Rose]

--In CvS2, customs can be really broken. Sakura's shoshoshoshosho does a crap load of damage, evn if blocked. Many characters have guard crush customs that do a fair amount of damage.
--If fireball character (A3) traps you in the corner, he can just whittle your life down with VC fireballs. Simple stupid thing, but blocking so much crap does a lot of damage. Blocking Gouki's repeated red fireball thing does almost 40% life, and that's not even getting into the unblockables.
There aren't any supers that have that kind of options... I mean, these arent elite strats or anything. These are just basic things to the custom engine in those games. Other than grab supers, no other type of meter related attack inlficts griveous damage even if blocked.

[DanD]

My big problem with CC's is that regardless of when you activate it doesn't negatively effect your momentum -- usually it helps your momentum, I will explain below:

With "normal" supers, if you randomly throw out your super and your opponent blocks, they get to counter because you f'ed up.

With "normal" supers, if you throw out your super and your opponent evades, you lose all your meter and must finish out the entire super animation.

With CC's if you random activate and your opponent blocks, tough shit for them, you get to have a hayday of block stun and 50/50 mixups to grab damage...

With CC's if you activate and your opponent decides to evade, they can't just jump over your animation, because you get change it and track them across the level to try and score more damage.


CC's are good because there is zero downside to using them. If you activate randomly you only lose meter, there is little risk involved.

In sum, CC's net huge damage for almost no risk. Much different from a normal super.

[ShinjiGohan]

Don't forget EX2 and EX2+. Where you can combo excels into more excels. Or just imagine of yun can activate his gen-ei, combo you, just as his gen-ei ends, he activates again and continues the combo...

For all of the possible variations that these combos could produce, they always end up being broken down to the easiest yet most damaging combo. Once that's achieved there is never any variation, no tangents. All creativity stops right there.

Also, while CCs have some things in common with supers. Typically everything that supers have, CCs have even more of.

Invincibility? Varies with supers but typically its either on par or far less than CC invincibility. But none of that ever really matters as much of the time CCs are activated in times when they can't get hit anyway.

Space control? Supers tend to have very little space control (except in marvel). Do a super fireball and you can deal with it just as you would a normal fireball. AA super? Typically lack range and if done earily they normally only hit 2-3 hits. Even if you block them its over in 5-10 frames and you can go on with the match. You don't lose all of your guard meter. VCs are far superior. You can just spam 30-50 fireballs and completely zone out your opponent and do tons of block damage and guard meter damage with really no way for the opponent to retailiate. You also have various VCs that control both air and ground space. In short even if a VC is activated from the full screen away, you still can't do anything about what they do and remain at their mercy for another 5-10 seconds until the VC ends. Mean while with supers, there is a complete lack of screen control in comparison.

Damage: Supers are preset in their damage. Typically at the most in games with CCs, most supers do about 25-33% damage. Meanwhile good CC combos with the same characters are a good 40-70%. Some games are even a 95-100% depending on the combo. Really, there is no comparison here, or at least a way to compare them as equals. If you're going for high damage, you go for CCs. Its as simple as that.

Usefulness in different situations: By the very definition of variable combo, you can do whatever you want. That means if you're smart you always have a use for VCs for whatever situation comes your way. That simply isn't the case with supers. Your character may not neccessarily have a super or even a special to deal with a situation. Especially against situations against a VC player.

Unblockables: There is only 1 type of supers that are unblockable, and typically they have limited invincibility, move really slow, and are virtually impossible to land. Infact the only real way to get them are hard set ups that aren't practical, or taking a bet that your limited invincibility will be enough to go through whatever move they put out against you at point blank range. Meanwhile the ones that exist for CCs can have multiple set ups, or even set up unblockables after the CC ends like with D.Dark. Far more versital and very little the opponent can do about it.

No matter how you compare it. Everything that Supers do, VCs do on a far grander scale and outclass supers. Damage, invincibility, unblockables, guard damage, block damage, versitility, space control.

The fact that whatever games have CCs, the players end up relying solely on them. In fact you can reprogram A2 and A3 to be without supers, X and Z/A isms and there'd be virtually no change in the players gameplay.

[Kyokuji]

C'mon guys let's be realistic here, your talking about a feature that requires exact timing or it doesn't do jack. If you mess up a VC combo [which happens all the time in high level matches] chances are that your meter run out or your hit. Your honestly insinuating that a good player will never be hit in VC?

wut
You have to be a troll or something. Good players will watch their meter run down as they combo. I have like half a dozen different ways I can finish a VC depending on where I am on the screen and how much meter I have left. People in CvS2 will switch to jab juggles once the damage counter gets low and then super right before the meter runs out. Alpha 3 players will set-up a CC/reset CC at around 30% or below.

If you're messing up VCs, you're not high level. Period.
On the rare occasion that you drop someone, you just jump away before they can land anything substantial. Worst case scenario, you get reset. There's no way you'd drop them before you've done at least like 30% damage anyway.

[AzN_Skater]

Bait bait bait.

He deserves his red bars.

He's like a screamer, just repeats the same "takes 1 hit to stop it" idea when everyone here has already made it clear that the 1 hit never comes.

Done.

[AlterGenesis]

LOL @ topic.

Clearly, you haven't got these things done to you.

[orochizoolander]

they're generally overpowered in every game they are in.

Why wasn't the thread closed after this post?

[Dandy J]

1) Unless you know what your doing, V-ism is just gonna lead to a wasted meter since one hit= End of Super.
I think we are all assuming they someone knows 'what they are doing'. You know, I think fireballs aren't very good in SF2 because no one knows how to do a fireball (unless you know what you are doing).


2) But, if they have a meter for Alpha counter, your done.

Yeah, and you lose guard bar if you do one, making it easier to guardbreak yourself. There are also some blocked VC things that can blow through ACs.


As for them doing too much damage, the same can be said fir traditional SF supers. I've never heard someone complain that ST sucks because they take too much damage.
Except supers do maybe 60% in SF2, take a awhile to get because of the way meter builds, reset back to 0 every round, and 99% of the time only get to be used once a round because of how long it takes to build the meter and by that time the other person has way less than 60% anyway.

[Giza]

Sonic da Fighters had an okay custom combo-ish thing. :confused: But I guess it was the only supers in the game and you could only do it 5 times max and it took out one of your guards.

[Dandy J]

I'm still living in 2003, my bad.
Seeing as Yun only got more and more dominant over time that doesn't make any sense.

Unless you meant that you yourself are still living in 2003, then that would make sense.

Also your comparison for CCs to supers is lacking to say the least. In addition to comparing them, you also have to go by each individual game since there are differences.

In Alpha 2 - CCs have a 1-input activation, so it's much more practical to use them as a 50/50 with throw (ie clean walk-in CC from a tick). Doing that with a super against someone with good reactions...well it's not impossible. It's definitely not practical since either 1. they will see you doing the motion, or 2. you buffer it straight away and they just block because there's not enough delay. And of course it allows for another mixup (overhead, throw at the end) if it's blocked. Super's don't do that in A2.

In Alpha 3 - 1-input activation, and that activation can blow through whatever, even if you are in the air to counter anti-airs. If it's blocked it allows you to pressure even more and even guardbreak or unblockable someone. Supers don't do that in A3.

In CvS2 - Same things. Allows you do get more mixups or a guardbreak after it 'fails' (not much of a failure).

In 3s - Other supers are unsafe and completely punishable on block, while GeneiJin just gives you more opportunities to attack if it's blocked. And it can be hitconfirmed too.

You kind of completely skipped over the 'gives more opportunities to hit someone after it's blocked' property. You know, instead of the 'being done attacking' or 'being really punishable' property that supers have.

[Ouroborus]

CCs are fun, stop hating.

If i wanted a game with only supers, i'll play ST instead

[jae hoon]

CCs are fun, stop hating.

If i wanted a game with only supers, i'll play ST instead

I actually find CC's to be boring as hell.

[Khiempossible]

Dandy J is on the right track.

I've always (theory fighting here) considered CCs to be so busted for the following reasons:

1. They can punish everything.
2. They're still good on block.

It comes down to 2 things in my head. Fighting games to me are about 2 things.

1. Baiting
2. Options

Conventionally, most players wait around doing safe shit until they see something they can punish. i.e.

bait a whiffed poke
bait a jump
bait a bad fireball
bait a reversal
bait a grab

whatever.

Traditionally the most universal counter was an invincible uppercut or super. However uppercuts are limited in that most situations you can't do it after the fact, half the time they have to be psychic (and then punishable if someone baited your uppercut), and didn't punish all things (like bad fireballs for instance). Supers also failed pretty miserably as anti air half the time (doing reduced damage or not comboing properly). etc. etc.

The point is that most other counters to baited attacks had limited effectiveness and did not kill all things.

CCs on the other hand punish many many more things, reactively in some cases (oh did you jump? -> anti air CC) and if done psychically are generally incredibly difficult to punish (even when you can AC it costs you a bar just to punish with limitied damage whereas punishing an uppercut or super leads to at the least a knockdown and often a combo).

So that's half the reason CCs are so busted they're a universal way to counter more things.

The other half is options which is actually tied in to my first point. CCs give you options. You can do gay shit after activating on block (most of A3 has double fireball pressure, and unblockables and stuff).

It's hard enough dealing with safe jump crossups after getting knocked down, but now you can jump over activate hit with a shadow and then hit them again? You can throw fireballs and cover the whole screen? Like that's why gouki is top tier in A3, he can do really stupid shit after activating.

I donno I feel like I'm rambling.

[The Illuminati]

I've never said broken, I said overpowered. And it consistantly being the best super option in every game is proof enough of that. I don't know what else to tell you if you can't understand that.

Okay my bad, I thought you were trying to say that it was broken.

[The Illuminati]

Also your comparison for CCs to supers is lacking to say the least. In addition to comparing them, you also have to go by each individual game since there are differences.



You kind of completely skipped over the 'gives more opportunities to hit someone after it's blocked' property. You know, instead of the 'being done attacking' or 'being really punishable' property that supers have.


Wasn't really making a comparison, just saying that some of the discrepancies with CC can be associated with supers. People listed : Unblockables, Infinites, High damage and boring meter build as if they were mutually exclusive to CC/VC.



I think we are all assuming they someone knows 'what they are doing'. You know, I think fireballs aren't very good in SF2 because no one knows how to do a fireball (unless you know what you are doing).

That was my point, I'm not assuming all players are total scrubs. But, CC is to fuck up and happens alot in top matches. Even if the execution is easier then say a super, you still have to put in more work in the end.


Yeah, and you lose guard bar if you do one, making it easier to guardbreak yourself. There are also some blocked VC things that can blow through ACs.

But , you can still counter and besides fireball VC traps what else can you do to get around alpha counters?


Except supers do maybe 60% in SF2, take a awhile to get because of the way meter builds, reset back to 0 every round, and 99% of the time only get to be used once a round because of how long it takes to build the meter and by that time the other person has way less than 60% anyway.

Was only talking about SFII, I mentioned CVS2 as well.


Bait bait bait.

He deserves his red bars.

He's like a screamer, just repeats the same "takes 1 hit to stop it" idea when everyone here has already made it clear that the 1 hit never comes.

Done.

I made more then one point, not my fault if you decide to gloss over them.

[Dark Geese]

Everything that I wanted to say has already been said.

[The Illuminati]

There were so many post I kinda missed some responses, but I get it now. I guess you guys were sorta right, anyway I concede since my question has already been answered.

[brian]

Eh, I think this thread is overemphasizing the broken-ness of CCs as an answer to the original question.

Yes its true that CCs have been broken in every game they are in, but this is a problem with the implementation, not the concept. Make a new game exactly like alpha 3, but with CCs doing 10% of their current damage- then CC's would no longer be overpowered.

*But they would still be stupid*

The real reason CCs are stupid imo, is that if I wanted to play a single player game, I'd play a single player game. The act of performing CCs is a single player game that interrupts the nice multi player game that was taking place. Its a game that only one of the original two players gets to play at a time... while one of them just sits there watching. What a dumb concept...

[Saotome Kaneda]

and so ends the yearly CC/VC thread