Economics focus | Selling sex

[Septimus Prime]

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10533877

Economics focus
Selling sex

Jan 17th 2008
From The Economist print edition

Economists let some light in on the shady market for paid sex

IT IS all too easy to become a lost soul in New Orleans. The annual meeting of the American Economic Association this month was part of a huge gathering of social scientists sprawled across the city. Each venue itself was a warren of meeting rooms. Take a wrong turning and a delegate seeking an earnest symposium on minimum wages might innocently end up in the conference session devoted to the market for paid sex.

The star attraction there was Steven Levitt, an economics professor at the University of Chicago and co-author of “Freakonomics”, a best-selling book. Mr Levitt presented preliminary findings* from a study conducted with Sudhir Venkatesh, a sociologist at Columbia University. Their research on the economics of street prostitution combines official arrest records with data on 2,200 “tricks” (transactions), collected by Mr Venkatesh in co-operation with sex workers in three Chicago districts.

The results are fascinating. Almost half of the city's arrests for prostitution take place in just 0.3% of its street corners. The industry is concentrated in so few locations because prostitutes and their clients need to be able to find each other. Earnings are high compared with other jobs. Sex workers receive $25-30 per hour, roughly four times what they could expect outside prostitution. Yet this wage premium seems paltry considering the stigma and inherent risks. Sex without a condom is the norm, so the possibility of contracting a sexually transmitted infection (STI) is high. Mr Levitt reckons that sex workers can expect to be violently assaulted once a month. The risk of legal action is low. Prostitutes are more likely to have sex with a police officer than to be arrested by one.

Pricing strategies are much like any other business. Fees vary with the service provided and prostitutes maximise returns by segmenting the market. Clients are charged according to their perceived ability to pay, with white customers paying more than black ones. When negotiating prices, prostitutes will usually make an offer to black clients, but will solicit a bid from a white client. There are some anomalies. Although prices increase with the riskiness of an act, the premium charged for forgoing a condom is much smaller than found in other studies. And attractive prostitutes were unable to command higher fees.

By chance, the authors were able to study the effects of a demand shock. As people gathered for the July 4th festivities around Washington Park (one of the neighbourhoods studied), business picked up by around 60%, though prices rose by just 30%. The market was able to absorb this rise in demand partly because of flexible supply. Regular prostitutes worked more hours and those from other locations were drawn in. So were other recruits—women who were not regular prostitutes but were prepared to work for the higher wages temporarily on offer.

One controversial finding is that prostitutes do better with pimps—they work fewer hours and are less likely to be arrested by the police or preyed on by gang members. The paper's discussant at the conference, Evelyn Korn of Germany's University of Marburg, said that her favourite result from the study was that pimps pay “efficiency wages”. In other words, pimps pay above the minimum rate required by sex workers in order to attract, retain and motivate the best staff. Mr Levitt said that a few prostitutes asked the researchers to introduce them to pimps.

A separate paper** on sex workers in Ecuador echoed some of these findings. As in Chicago, the paid-sex market in Ecuador is tiered, with licensed brothel workers earning more per hour than unlicensed street prostitutes. These gradations might reflect different tastes: brothel workers tend to be younger, more attractive and better educated. They are also slightly less likely to have an STI. Condom use is the norm: 61% of street prostitutes surveyed used a condom in the previous three transactions. In Chicago, condoms were used in only a quarter of tricks.

What about the johns?

These studies contribute to our understanding of the suppliers of paid sex, but tell us little about their customers. The session's organiser, Taggert Brooks of the University of Wisconsin, attempted to fill this gap in knowledge. He shed light on the sex industry's demand side in his analysis† of men who attend strip clubs. He argued that habitués of strip clubs featuring nude or semi-nude dancers are in search of “near-sex”—an experience of intimacy rather than sexual release. They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere, should they desire it.

Strip-club patrons are more likely to be college-educated (cue some uneasy seat shifting from conference delegates), to have had an STI, and to have altered their sexual behaviour because of AIDS, than non-patrons are. They are typically unmarried, relatively young (against the stereotype of old married men) and are characterised as “high-sensation seekers”.

Although all speakers at the session were careful not to draw very strong conclusions from preliminary findings, a few broad themes nevertheless emerged. In many respects, the paid-sex industry is much like any other business. Pricing strategies are familiar from other settings. Despite evidence of a myopic attitude towards risk, there have been plenty of recent examples of that in the finance industry too. Illegality and lack of regulation are likely to heighten public-health risks. The Ecuador study concluded that rigorous policing of street prostitution might limit the spread of STIs by directing sex workers into the safer environs of licensed brothels. For an audience facing an evening away from home in the Big Easy, there was much to ponder.
Here's another article I found interesting—especially the part about strip-club patrons. It (along with other things) makes me never want to go to one of those places again.

[Infernoman]

I've never been to a strip cub...and don't plan to...why bother?

it's a very interesting article.

[MAGUS1234]

fuck strip clubs

[starboy]

Pricing strategies are much like any other business. Fees vary with the service provided and prostitutes maximise returns by segmenting the market. Clients are charged according to their perceived ability to pay, with white customers paying more than black ones. When negotiating prices, prostitutes will usually make an offer to black clients, but will solicit a bid from a white client. There are some anomalies. Although prices increase with the riskiness of an act, the premium charged for forgoing a condom is much smaller than found in other studies. And attractive prostitutes were unable to command higher fees.


Fucking weird.

[Azrael]

I sort of found the article to be mostly bullshit based on a few surface observations, but no real in-depth study.

The results are fascinating. Almost half of the city's arrests for prostitution take place in just 0.3% of its street corners. The industry is concentrated in so few locations because prostitutes and their clients need to be able to find each other.
Or perhaps its because standing around on a street corner is a thing of the past. Ahem craigslist? Aside from that particularly obvious resource, there are plenty of ways for a potential prostitute to get in contact with a potential john. The internet has really obliterated a lot of loitering.

Sex without a condom is the norm, so the possibility of contracting a sexually transmitted infection (STI) is high.
...Says who? Many john communities vigorously self-inforce the condom rule, and women who are willing to bareback are blacklisted within the community. Of course, no one wants to get an STD. But not only that, many johns are married and have unprotected sex with their partners. Spreading an STD you got from a prostitute to your wife is...well...a crime of unforgiveable proportions.

Only amateurs/low-level prostitutes and johns would risk bareback, ESPECIALLY in an on-the-street deal.

Pricing strategies are much like any other business. Fees vary with the service provided and prostitutes maximise returns by segmenting the market. Clients are charged according to their perceived ability to pay, with white customers paying more than black ones.
Okay, I've NEVER heard of that one.

Pricing is usually pretty fixed by region. The reason being, if a girl is charging too much, there are at least 5 other girls in the immediate vicinity willing to give the same service for less. If the girls somehow collectively all raise prices together, they can get away with it. An individual girl might be able to get away with a high price if she's willing to offer services that other girls can't, or has a very good reputation within the john community.

What about the johns?

These studies contribute to our understanding of the suppliers of paid sex, but tell us little about their customers. The session's organiser, Taggert Brooks of the University of Wisconsin, attempted to fill this gap in knowledge.
Ranges from all sorts of guys.

The most common john however is the married one. Unhappy/failing marriages, sure, but many guys are happily married. Prostitution is just one way for him to live out his fantasies of sex with other women, with minimal risk of his wife finding out. Affairs at the work place, or among friends are very risky, and if the john is found out, he risks divorce where he loses half his income at the least. Prostitutes exist in almost an entirely different sphere of existance - there's very little chance that the paths of the whore and the wife will cross. Even if they did, working girls are usually pretty good at keeping secrets.

And then there is the sect of single guys who aren't good at picking up women, or who can but just don't want to bother with it all.

He shed light on the sex industry's demand side in his analysis† of men who attend strip clubs. He argued that habitués of strip clubs featuring nude or semi-nude dancers are in search of “near-sex”—an experience of intimacy rather than sexual release. They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere, should they desire it.
Not really. Your average guy who goes to a strip club isn't likely to know where to find prostitution. It being illegal and all.

Aside from the guys who just don't know where to find prostitution, strip clubs are a nice compromise for guys who aren't willing to go all the way with a prostitute. It's sexual stimulation, but without intercourse. So a married guy can justify himself in saying that "it's not sex." The other type of guy who prefers strip clubs to prostitution is terrified of STD's - condom or otherwise - and sees strip clubs as infinitely safer. Then there is the guy who doesn't want to engage in prostitution, because he sees it as insulting to his manhood to have to pay for sex. A strip club is less threatening, and since many guys go with friends or in groups, it's just more of a "hanging out with the guys" atmosphere.

Strip-club patrons are more likely to be college-educated (cue some uneasy seat shifting from conference delegates), to have had an STI, and to have altered their sexual behaviour because of AIDS, than non-patrons are. They are typically unmarried, relatively young (against the stereotype of old married men) and are characterised as “high-sensation seekers”.
Never heard of this either.

Pricing in a strip club is usually set by the club, so you're not going to see too many fluxuations there. Where you will see differences, however, is in the quality of service. The most attractive women at the club, in general, give the worst service, while the other girls give better service, and perhaps even offer otherwise illegal acts.

Girls in strip clubs make their money from lap dances. Stage dances are chump change at best. The girl actually has to pay the club for letting her work the night, and then tip the DJ as well for, hopefully, a good promotion. So, just by the fact that she's there, the girl has already lost $150-200 for the night, but that figure depends on the club.

The most attractive girls in a club don't really have to do any work. All they need to do is stand there, and some guy will come up and ask for a dance. In fact, there are probably a line of guys waiting for her, so from her POV, it makes sense to give each guy the very basic service, move him along, and get to the next guy.

That leaves the other girls in an awkward position. Most guys think "if I'm paying for it, I want only the hottest girl!" and will wait for the pouty 9 who's already got 3 guys in her queue. The mid-tier girls don't have a queue of guys waiting, so they've got to make their money by getting more cash per guy. The only way they can do this is better service. Sure, a guy can pay $40 to have the best looking girl in the club unenthusiatically dance on his lap for 5 minutes. Or for the same price, a 6 will rub his crotch and let him fondle her breasts when the bouncers are out of sight. "We can do more in the VIP room" she whispers, and before he knows it, the guy is heading to the ATM machine.

Offering extra service also keeps the guy coming back and visiting her specifically - a regular source of income, something the mid-tier girl needs. The top-tier girls can rely on enough casual/one-time visitors lining up for them to not have to worry about that.

[Rhythm1c]

I sort of found the article to be mostly bullshit based on a few surface observations, but no real in-depth study.


Or perhaps its because standing around on a street corner is a thing of the past. Ahem craigslist? Aside from that particularly obvious resource, there are plenty of ways for a potential prostitute to get in contact with a potential john. The internet has really obliterated a lot of loitering.


...Says who? Many john communities vigorously self-inforce the condom rule, and women who are willing to bareback are blacklisted within the community. Of course, no one wants to get an STD. But not only that, many johns are married and have unprotected sex with their partners. Spreading an STD you got from a prostitute to your wife is...well...a crime of unforgiveable proportions.

Only amateurs/low-level prostitutes and johns would risk bareback, ESPECIALLY in an on-the-street deal.


Okay, I've NEVER heard of that one.

Pricing is usually pretty fixed by region. The reason being, if a girl is charging too much, there are at least 5 other girls in the immediate vicinity willing to give the same service for less. If the girls somehow collectively all raise prices together, they can get away with it. An individual girl might be able to get away with a high price if she's willing to offer services that other girls can't, or has a very good reputation within the john community.


Ranges from all sorts of guys.

The most common john however is the married one. Unhappy/failing marriages, sure, but many guys are happily married. Prostitution is just one way for him to live out his fantasies of sex with other women, with minimal risk of his wife finding out. Affairs at the work place, or among friends are very risky, and if the john is found out, he risks divorce where he loses half his income at the least. Prostitutes exist in almost an entirely different sphere of existance - there's very little chance that the paths of the whore and the wife will cross. Even if they did, working girls are usually pretty good at keeping secrets.

And then there is the sect of single guys who aren't good at picking up women, or who can but just don't want to bother with it all.


Not really. Your average guy who goes to a strip club isn't likely to know where to find prostitution. It being illegal and all.

Aside from the guys who just don't know where to find prostitution, strip clubs are a nice compromise for guys who aren't willing to go all the way with a prostitute. It's sexual stimulation, but without intercourse. So a married guy can justify himself in saying that "it's not sex." The other type of guy who prefers strip clubs to prostitution is terrified of STD's - condom or otherwise - and sees strip clubs as infinitely safer. Then there is the guy who doesn't want to engage in prostitution, because he sees it as insulting to his manhood to have to pay for sex. A strip club is less threatening, and since many guys go with friends or in groups, it's just more of a "hanging out with the guys" atmosphere.


Never heard of this either.

Pricing in a strip club is usually set by the club, so you're not going to see too many fluxuations there. Where you will see differences, however, is in the quality of service. The most attractive women at the club, in general, give the worst service, while the other girls give better service, and perhaps even offer otherwise illegal acts.

Girls in strip clubs make their money from lap dances. Stage dances are chump change at best. The girl actually has to pay the club for letting her work the night, and then tip the DJ as well for, hopefully, a good promotion. So, just by the fact that she's there, the girl has already lost $150-200 for the night, but that figure depends on the club.

The most attractive girls in a club don't really have to do any work. All they need to do is stand there, and some guy will come up and ask for a dance. In fact, there are probably a line of guys waiting for her, so from her POV, it makes sense to give each guy the very basic service, move him along, and get to the next guy.

That leaves the other girls in an awkward position. Most guys think "if I'm paying for it, I want only the hottest girl!" and will wait for the pouty 9 who's already got 3 guys in her queue. The mid-tier girls don't have a queue of guys waiting, so they've got to make their money by getting more cash per guy. The only way they can do this is better service. Sure, a guy can pay $40 to have the best looking girl in the club unenthusiatically dance on his lap for 5 minutes. Or for the same price, a 6 will rub his crotch and let him fondle her breasts when the bouncers are out of sight. "We can do more in the VIP room" she whispers, and before he knows it, the guy is heading to the ATM machine.

Offering extra service also keeps the guy coming back and visiting her specifically - a regular source of income, something the mid-tier girl needs. The top-tier girls can rely on enough casual/one-time visitors lining up for them to not have to worry about that.





Epic post confirmed.

[Bounce]

well put az,

everyone makes money, even the john if he knows what he is doing.

[WasFemto]

only $25-30 and hour :rofl:

[starboy]

I sort of found your post to be bullshit based off of a few surface observations instead of any "real" study.


Or perhaps its because standing around on a street corner is a thing of the past. Ahem craigslist? Aside from that particularly obvious resource, there are plenty of ways for a potential prostitute to get in contact with a potential john. The internet has really obliterated a lot of loitering.

Okay, the article is talking about the business of street prostitution. The reason of the prostitutes being so concentrated in one area because it makes it easier to find clients and be found by clients makes MUCH more sense than...craigslist?



...Says who? Many john communities vigorously self-inforce the condom rule, and women who are willing to bareback are blacklisted within the community. Of course, no one wants to get an STD. But not only that, many johns are married and have unprotected sex with their partners. Spreading an STD you got from a prostitute to your wife is...well...a crime of unforgiveable proportions.

Only amateurs/low-level prostitutes and johns would risk bareback, ESPECIALLY in an on-the-street deal.

..>Says who? HBO's pimps up Hos down? These guys obviously went into several prostitute littered locations and did some research...you're stating what most people think from watching shows on HBO about Ho's and pimps. Blacklisted from the community? What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, a guy willing to pick up a stranger and pay her for sex is going to check her credentials first and ask for a sex resume first...


Okay, I've NEVER heard of that one.

Pricing is usually pretty fixed by region. The reason being, if a girl is charging too much, there are at least 5 other girls in the immediate vicinity willing to give the same service for less. If the girls somehow collectively all raise prices together, they can get away with it. An individual girl might be able to get away with a high price if she's willing to offer services that other girls can't, or has a very good reputation within the john community.


You've NEVER heard of this practice? You REALLY think prostitutes charge a dude in a 89 Corolla the same price as a guy in a Ferrari? The whole point of the article is to show how the invisible rules of economics that govern everyday business also affect prostitution. Of course if there are 5 girls trying to win a business the guy will get a somewhat cheaper price, but overall prices will vary from customer to customer depending on the perceived ability to pay...price discrimination. Happens everyday.


Ranges from all sorts of guys.

The most common john however is the married one. Unhappy/failing marriages, sure, but many guys are happily married. Prostitution is just one way for him to live out his fantasies of sex with other women, with minimal risk of his wife finding out. Affairs at the work place, or among friends are very risky, and if the john is found out, he risks divorce where he loses half his income at the least. Prostitutes exist in almost an entirely different sphere of existance - there's very little chance that the paths of the whore and the wife will cross. Even if they did, working girls are usually pretty good at keeping secrets.

And then there is the sect of single guys who aren't good at picking up women, or who can but just don't want to bother with it all.


ugh....okay...



Not really. Your average guy who goes to a strip club isn't likely to know where to find prostitution. It being illegal and all.

Aside from the guys who just don't know where to find prostitution, strip clubs are a nice compromise for guys who aren't willing to go all the way with a prostitute. It's sexual stimulation, but without intercourse. So a married guy can justify himself in saying that "it's not sex." The other type of guy who prefers strip clubs to prostitution is terrified of STD's - condom or otherwise - and sees strip clubs as infinitely safer. Then there is the guy who doesn't want to engage in prostitution, because he sees it as insulting to his manhood to have to pay for sex. A strip club is less threatening, and since many guys go with friends or in groups, it's just more of a "hanging out with the guys" atmosphere.


Read what the article wrote more carefully:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere, should they desire it.

What it doesn't say is:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere and they know exactly where to get it, should they desire it.




Never heard of this either.

Pricing in a strip club is usually set by the club, so you're not going to see too many fluxuations there. Where you will see differences, however, is in the quality of service. The most attractive women at the club, in general, give the worst service, while the other girls give better service, and perhaps even offer otherwise illegal acts.

Girls in strip clubs make their money from lap dances. Stage dances are chump change at best. The girl actually has to pay the club for letting her work the night, and then tip the DJ as well for, hopefully, a good promotion. So, just by the fact that she's there, the girl has already lost $150-200 for the night, but that figure depends on the club.

The most attractive girls in a club don't really have to do any work. All they need to do is stand there, and some guy will come up and ask for a dance. In fact, there are probably a line of guys waiting for her, so from her POV, it makes sense to give each guy the very basic service, move him along, and get to the next guy.

That leaves the other girls in an awkward position. Most guys think "if I'm paying for it, I want only the hottest girl!" and will wait for the pouty 9 who's already got 3 guys in her queue. The mid-tier girls don't have a queue of guys waiting, so they've got to make their money by getting more cash per guy. The only way they can do this is better service. Sure, a guy can pay $40 to have the best looking girl in the club unenthusiatically dance on his lap for 5 minutes. Or for the same price, a 6 will rub his crotch and let him fondle her breasts when the bouncers are out of sight. "We can do more in the VIP room" she whispers, and before he knows it, the guy is heading to the ATM machine.

Offering extra service also keeps the guy coming back and visiting her specifically - a regular source of income, something the mid-tier girl needs. The top-tier girls can rely on enough casual/one-time visitors lining up for them to not have to worry about that.


Okay now you're just going off in a tangent, the study didn't talk about price discrimination in strip clubs nor did it go in depth about how a strip club operates...what exactly are you arguing here?

[Calibur]

Okay now you're just going off in a tangent, the study didn't talk about price discrimination in strip clubs nor did it go in depth about how a strip club operates...what exactly are you arguing here?

Nothing. He's just spreadin the knowledge. Sit back and you might get some
thing useful.

I have had friends in various "industries" They are actually a lot more honest than other people (as long as they don't plan on getting any money from you) the general consensus from them is "it's a job, and if you don't use a condom you jepardize your livelihood."

Knowing that the statement that many prostitutes willingly worked without a condom through the entire report into doubt. That said I LOVED Freakonomics and recommend it to everyone.

[Yasanagi]

Hmmmm... maybe Freakonomics would have made my economics classes back in university a bit more interesting.

[Serpent]

I take Az's observations more seriously than a biased academic "study" by an economist and a sociologist. There is no methodology or sample size given here. There is also the maddening logical leap tendency that all academics seem to love making, but would probably fail their students for.

[Azrael]

I sort of found your post to be bullshit based off of a few surface observations instead of any "real" study.
:rofl:

If I don't know what I'm talking about, I usually make it a point to say something like "in my opinion" or "well, I don't have any experience in the matter, so...". I won't say anything conclusive unless I'm pretty sure of myself.

That having been said...I don't want to get into too many personal details here, but let's just say I've had some experiences.

Okay, the article is talking about the business of street prostitution. The reason of the prostitutes being so concentrated in one area because it makes it easier to find clients and be found by clients makes MUCH more sense than...craigslist?
Ok, American street prostitution I am not that familiar with. The thing is though, street prostitution really is the amateur form of prostitution. Like, both the john and the girl have no idea what to do, so they both end up on the street corner. So yeah, if you want to only talk about street prostitution, maybe the report is accurate...but that really only scratches the surface. The rabbit hole goes so much deeper.

Like, I know nothing about drug deals. I've never bought drugs in my life. If you were to put me to the task right now, I'd have no idea what to do. What I'd probably end up doing is going to the shady part of town, looking for the seediest guy I can find under a street lamp, and being like "Yo fool, you got some crack?" If he does have crack, he's there because he's an amateur too and doesn't know how to get in touch with non-amateur buyers. This certainly isn't representative of the drug scene though.

The girls and johns who partake in prostitution want to be accessible...but not too accessible. After all, it is illegal. Most johns are married and don't want to be found out. And many working girls aren't dedicated sluts, its only something they do to make some spare cash while they aim for something else. Anyone who has a true interest in the industry and puts in the time and effort, will find those non-amateur channels.

And craigslist is actually pretty amateurish too...but I'm not about to go listing sites and what not here.

..>Says who? HBO's pimps up Hos down? These guys obviously went into several prostitute littered locations and did some research...you're stating what most people think from watching shows on HBO about Ho's and pimps.
Haven't watched HBO in years, sorry. Most of my experience comes from real life.

Blacklisted from the community? What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, a guy willing to pick up a stranger and pay her for sex is going to check her credentials first and ask for a sex resume first...
Again, only amateurs are so reckless.

Two exchanges I've seen in the last month. One john posts up a report about a girl he saw, writes about great service but mentions having sex with the girl bareback. The other johns immediately jump on him for being stupid and risky, with most taking note to never patronize this particular girl.

In the other incident, a relatively new john posts about a girl who is generally favored by the community. Except, this guy says that he thinks he could have gotten bareback from the girl if he pressed her. Most other johns are quick to defend her and say that they've always suited up with her and she's a safe girl. However, unfortunately it just so happens that the owner of the shop she works at keeps up with this community, and reading this report he decides to fire the girl...to stay on the safe side. The girl goes into freelance work until she figures out what to do next.

I can't give you the name of the TV show this comes from...because it's not TV. These things actually happened.

You've NEVER heard of this practice? You REALLY think prostitutes charge a dude in a 89 Corolla the same price as a guy in a Ferrari? The whole point of the article is to show how the invisible rules of economics that govern everyday business also affect prostitution.
Like I said, amateurs. Aside from then, johns know the prices and will not hesistate to call a girl on bullshit should she try to pimp him for more money.

Of course if there are 5 girls trying to win a business the guy will get a somewhat cheaper price, but overall prices will vary from customer to customer depending on the perceived ability to pay...price discrimination. Happens everyday.
It does, but not in the way the article describes.

Amazingly enough, the guys are the ones who have the most power over prices. Now, if every girl in a particular region decided to raise her prices, the guys would be stuck with it - no matter where he went he'd run into the same inflated price, so he'd have to either pay it or give up. That is, if you got all the girls in a particular region to agree to the higher prices. Of course, girls aren't going to do that. There will always be the girls who will betray the other girls and keep their prices low, so the johns will flock to them and they'll end up with more customers and ultimately more money than the girls who raised their prices.

When I was in Bangkok, I talked to some guys who lived there, who complained that the prices of the street walkers as well as the girls in the bars were going up. The reason was because of Japanese male tourists. The Japanese guys voluntarily paid more for a number of reasons. Because of this, the girls in Bangkok were able to collectively inch their prices up. If a guy complained about the prices, she could always tell him to take a hike, and then she could go find a Japanese guy willing to throw cash at her. Outside of Bangkok, prices were lower because there were less Japanese guys and the girls couldn't afford to drive away johns.

Read what the article wrote more carefully:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere, should they desire it.

What it doesn't say is:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere and they know exactly where to get it, should they desire it.
The article completely fails when it comes to painting the strip club demographic. Most strip club guys are young and, for the most part, single. As I said before, the main type of john is the married one, so young single guys don't often actively think to go seek out prostitutes instead of go to a strip club. Even if he did, he'd have no idea where to start. The best he could do is street prostitution, which in unappealing for a multitude of reasons.

Why not so many older guys? Simple. Older guys don't typically run with a crowd who would randomly up and be like "hey, let's hit up a strip club!" Plus, assuming a younger guy who goes into strip clubs get seriously into the sex trade, by the time he gets older he would have found those non-amateur channels for real prostitution. In other words, he's moved on to bigger and better pastures.

The older guys who do go to strip clubs are the ones who aren't quite willing to go that far, or would but just don't know how. Guys with AIDS/STD's? Where did that come from?

Okay now you're just going off in a tangent, the study didn't talk about price discrimination in strip clubs nor did it go in depth about how a strip club operates...what exactly are you arguing here?
Hell, the study went off on a tangent. "What kind of guy visits prostitutes? Let's look at the guy who visits a strip club!" And those "observations" were WAY off the mark too.

Which is why I say the study is BS based off surface observations. I guess it can't be helped - real working girls and johns don't actually want to be found (save for the people who will actually utilize them), and they do a great job of keeping everything on the down-low. A few economists aren't going to sweep into New Orleans and make any great economic discoveries about how the industry works. I happen to know some things, so I thought I might share the real stuff for everyone who was interested enough in the topic to come into this thread.

[Arsenal]

interesting stuff...

I don't know shit about prostitutes, so I can't comment about that, but Azrael is 10000000000% dead-on about the strip club thing. I don't how it is in other states (laws, culture, etc), but strip clubs in Milwaukee and their dancers operate exactly as Azrael decribed. After MANY visits doing "research" on the matter, I can safely say that Azrael knows his shit when it comes to club culture.

[HeaT]

I take Az's observations more seriously than a biased academic "study" by an economist and a sociologist. There is no methodology or sample size given here. There is also the maddening logical leap tendency that all academics seem to love making, but would probably fail their students for.

the article doesnt talk about methodology or sample size but the study does...you can read the 48 page study it is linked in the article..."we were able to gather detailed, real-time transaction-level data
for over 2,200 tricks performed by roughly 160 prostitutes"

on more thing the study is by Steven D. Levitt and Sudhir Alladi Venkatesh, one is an economist and the other a professor of..."management"...so he is not exactly a sociologist...

the article clearly states PRELIMINARY findings...

im with starboy on this...azreals..."opinions" or study with no..."methodology or sample size given" doesnt hold much water other than opinion based on personal experience (if it is even that, i dont know)...and whether that means the norm or not to you that is another question...


Read what the article wrote more carefully:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere, should they desire it.

What it doesn't say is:
They are aware that paid sex is on offer elsewhere and they know exactly where to get it, should they desire it.



The article completely fails when it comes to painting the strip club demographic. Most strip club guys are young and, for the most part, single. As I said before, the main type of john is the married one, so young single guys don't often actively think to go seek out prostitutes instead of go to a strip club. Even if he did, he'd have no idea where to start. The best he could do is street prostitution, which in unappealing for a multitude of reasons.

Why not so many older guys? Simple. Older guys don't typically run with a crowd who would randomly up and be like "hey, let's hit up a strip club!" Plus, assuming a younger guy who goes into strip clubs get seriously into the sex trade, by the time he gets older he would have found those non-amateur channels for real prostitution. In other words, he's moved on to bigger and better pastures.


ya your answer to his...observation doesnt even make sense you really just got proven wrong about your reading comprehension and you answered with something totally not relavant to him questioning your understanding of a sentence in the article...

im outi

Roberth

[Angelic Diablo]

:sad: Poor Starboy, should never have ventured out of tournament related threads. :shake:

[catchafire]

I guess i'm a "high sensation seeker." Ugh, I need to stop frequenting strip clubs...

[Arsenal]

I guess i'm a "high sensation seeker." Ugh, I need to stop frequenting strip clubs...

Hell no; it's a win-win for everyone as long as you know what's what. I LOVE them. I don't think I'll ever stop going. In fact, the older I get, the more disposable income I'll have to have fun with.

[fishjie]

a while ago i was getting a lapdance from some redhead chick named arianna. we chat about random shit and she tells me she's a mix of mexican, indian, and german. whatever. she gave good service, and i tipped her well. then i asked her if she did "private dances". she said yes, but 500$. i'm like nah.

then a long time later, i see an ad in an escort directory for a chick named arianna. her profile said she was a mix of mexican, indian and german. same girl. the profile said she only charged 200$. i guess they do charge different prices.

[Jaldaboath]

My real life experiences match Az' ones. Here in Mex prostitution works exatly as he described, with a simple difference: Newspaper advertisements, it's like Craiglist, they advertise like massage parlors to avoid being caught dead on, and are the link to more proffessional services.

Street selling is a high risk, and AIDS is no the most immediat threat, there are 3 hotspots in the city to get them, basically one for middle high class, medium class and low class, dependin on the site, street hookers are either: dirty, extremely ugly, dudes, or some combination thereoff; with the worse outcome for an amateur being picking up a trannie. So, it's the less used and crappier option.

[thurst]

me thinks az has been in japan too long...seriously though, prostitutes and drug dealers in major urban areas don't hang on the corner bcuz they're amateur it's a volume of traffic thing, pretty much as the article says. granted more "experienced" whores might have clientele that they hook up with through phones/net but for the most part sex work is low tech.

and the price thing makes all the sense in the world. you can tell those hookers were paying attention in intermediate micro and not giving any consumer surplus.

[Manx]

Soo... an STI... and here I was wondering what the cars they drive had to do with anything. :tup:

[fishjie]

only whores walk the streets

the escorts use the interwebz

[Azrael]

a while ago i was getting a lapdance from some redhead chick named arianna. we chat about random shit and she tells me she's a mix of mexican, indian, and german. whatever. she gave good service, and i tipped her well. then i asked her if she did "private dances". she said yes, but 500$. i'm like nah.

then a long time later, i see an ad in an escort directory for a chick named arianna. her profile said she was a mix of mexican, indian and german. same girl. the profile said she only charged 200$. i guess they do charge different prices.
That's a difference in sales approach...I dunno if there's a term for it, so I'm just going to call it hot/cold approach.

Anytime the guy is in a "hot" situation, prices will always be higher. Hot basically just means that he and the girl have already been interacting in some form or another. The hopes is that he's all worked up and not thinking with his brain, and ends up paying a ridiculous sum just to keep going. It works too - note the ATM's with jacked-up service fees in a strip club - you would NEVER use this ATM in any other situation, but with an attractive stripper on your arm you're just not thinking clearly.

A "cold" situation then is a start-from-zero scenario. In that case - the directory - she can't advertise $500 because she'll be laughed at. $200 was probably the going rate for escorts at that place, so she had to match to stay competitive. Once she actually met the guy, she might try to squeeze more money out of him in a "hot" situation. Girls like this though are frowned upon by the john community and usually avoided whenever possible.

You probably could have bargained with her though. Guys have more bargaining power than might be imagined. Most times when quoting prices, girls will aim high and hope you just immediately consent. If you don't, she may have to start lowering the price in order to keep you interested.

Remember how the strip club dynamic works? It's the same for prostitutes, its just that the strip club atmosphere is far more condensed. If a prostitute has a guaranteed/highly probable source of income, she may quote a high price, and if the guy doesn't like it he can take a hike - there are at least 3-4 other guys ready and willing to take his place.

However, for girls who don't have that guaranteed income, she can't afford to let guys just blow off like that - she doesn't know if or when the next john is coming in. She's gotta start thinking, "Well, I wanted $500, but if this guy bails...well, $300 is better than nothing." Fundamentally, the market is over-saturated, so the girl can't afford to be too picky when it comes to where her income comes in.

Bargaining works especially well at the end of her shift, where its very unlikely she will encounter another john if the guy loses interest. Sometimes, a girl will be willing to bargain based on the guy - perhaps they've been hitting it off well, or he's young and attractive and she's been servicing old men all day. She may also do it to try and get the guy coming back - a regular dependable john is a pot of gold to a prostitute.

My real life experiences match Az' ones. Here in Mex prostitution works exatly as he described, with a simple difference: Newspaper advertisements, it's like Craiglist, they advertise like massage parlors to avoid being caught dead on, and are the link to more proffessional services.

Yeah, I said before that the internet eliminated street walking, but I think that's inaccurate. I think the internet just made it easier to find the higher-class stuff. Before, yeah, newspaper ads, and I figure the network was much more personal - you just had to know the right people who could introduce you to the right circles.

me thinks az has been in japan too long...seriously though, prostitutes and drug dealers in major urban areas don't hang on the corner bcuz they're amateur it's a volume of traffic thing, pretty much as the article says. granted more "experienced" whores might have clientele that they hook up with through phones/net but for the most part sex work is low tech.

I can't speak for the drug world at all, but again, street corner prostitution is amateur work. Trust me, the volume of traffic is not only greater in the private, "professional" networks, they're also a hell of a lot safer. Random police stings/arrests are very rare, the quality of clientele/provider is much higher, secrecy is much better...it's just the better option. Prices tend to run a bit higher in the private network as well...you get what you pay for.

Like I said, if some random guy thinks "I want to find a whore" but doesn't know where to look, he probably ends up on the street corner with the girl who didn't know where to advertise. If a guy seriously gets into the trade...he has no need to go to the street corner. Some pro-johns do occasionally pick up street walkers, but they do so as thrill-seekers - leave the comfort of the professional services behind to partake in something that is infinitely more risky. This behavior also isn't looked upon too positively.

[Blend]

yea what ever