Real Bout Fatal Fury Tiers + Discussion

[ThrowTheDice]

Real Bout Fatal Fury was the first entry to SNK's "Real Bout" series, and is an awesome game that deserves recognition. It's a great game in that with one or two exceptions, every character has so much abusable BS that it all kind of evens out, creating a surprisingly balanced game. The balance comes at no sacrifice of fun, though: this game is fast and furious. The Ring Out system means that you have to be on your toes the whole match, and is executed surprisingly well. To spark some discussion and get the ball rolling for newcomers, I made a brief tier list:

Disclaimer: The terms middle/low/high etc. are very relative. You could take any of the middle tiers in this game and put them in another game and they'd rocket to top tier in a heartbeat.

Tiers:

Top tier

Sokaku: He’s a MONSTER. THREE fireballs, two of which have full-screen range and hit low, and one of which covers the entire vertical area of the screen. A teleport move that hits overhead, can cross up, and is pretty safe. His shadow moves do tons of chip and give you a free mix-up. His demon punch has huge range, quick startup, and awesome recovery. His pursuit attack can hit from anywhere, and he has a command throw, just for kicks. No matter where you are on the screen, Sokaku can hit you without a lick of risk.

Mary: Zero recovery, insane throwing range, and has a counter for every situation. She’s probably one of the most technical characters in the game.

Terry: Power Geyser is great: quick, huge, high damage, nice chip damage, and completely safe. His Crack Shoot is at its best, and both Burn Knuckles are safe on block from just about any distance. His Power Dunk is surprisingly safe and has fantastic invincibility.


High tier

Kim: Crouch :snka: has great range, almost no pushback, and chains into his combos. High damage with or without meter, great supers, and his Hien Zan is the best it’s ever been: safe, huge range vertically and horizontally, tons of invincibility, and sends the opponent floating really slowly, almost like they’re underwater, leading to a Hien Zan x N semi-infinite.

Hon-Fu: Sky of Fire is safe, damaging, and high-priority. Good pokes, and an even better p-power: almost no startup, covers a lot of ground, and huuuge damage.

Franco: Second only to Sokaku in ring-out ability. Meteo Tackle is instant, covers huge range, and has silly frame advantage, meaning you can combo after it. Power Bicycle is a great anti-air, and his one-two is one of the fastest overheads in the game. Huge limbs means long range on his pokes.

Chonrei: Longest-range crouch :snka: in the game, Crouch :snka: x 5 into combos is too good. In combos ending with a line shift, you can cancel it into a roll and get a wicked mix-up. Solid move list, small hitbox, decent supers, and bitchin’ theme music.

Middle Tier

Billy: huge-ass range with that pole, fantastic supers: flame wheel chips and has high priority, and jumping flame wheel is an anti-air with great range, and is just one big hit, meaning that the opponent can’t fall out in the middle of it.

Geese: Nice pokes, gdlk Reppuken (though it whiffs at close range), his raisin storm is pretty quick, and his Deadly Rave is really easy to do. Great defensive character.

Joe: tornado has incredible recovery and range, he can combo a far/dash :snkc: after a tornado hit from just about anywhere. Tiger Kick is the best anti-air in the game, it even beats out the Sky of Fire (TK is hella unsafe, though.) Slush kick is good for countering pokes, and his :qcb: + :snkb: is good for closing distance.

Chonshu: Chonrei’s crouching :snka: , solid movelist, and teleports. His supers are SHIT, though.

Duck King: Great anti-air, good high-low mixup, and with an s-power he can add throws to his mixup. Hard to use effectively.

Mai: Standing :snka: is an overhead 0.0 . Flame elbow does lots and lots of chip, clone flame super has good priority and a long active time, and she has good priority all around. Doesn’t do as much damage as the rest of the cast on average, though.

Andy: Chou Reppa Dan x N infinite. Lots of moves cover tons of ground and are safe (Kuu Ha Dan, Zanei Ken), two great anti-airs, and an air-to-ground grab. Basically RBS Andy and RBS EX Andy put together.

Low Tier

Yamazaki: Snake Tamer is slow and only has one arc, Daggers are hard to combo into, and his guillotine can’t be comboed into. Lots of his pokes can be crouched, and he’s one of the biggest characters in the game. Now for the good: His rising attack is godly: awesome range and priority, and stops crossups cold. His guillotine has 2/3 screen range and makes a great whiff punisher. It can also ring out from almost anywhere on the screen. Plus, he’s still got his good ol’ counter and p-power throw.

Bob Tier

Bob: lol, poor Bob. His supers are the worst they've ever been, and his specials are nothing to write home about.

[Kitsune707]

How does Real Bout Special or RBS2 compare?

[Dark Geese]

Geese has an infinite also..

Theres a thread on Real Bout 2 in Other Games discussion..

Real Bout Special tiers are:

1. Billy
2. Sokaku
3. Mai
4. Kim

[Edpachi]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=139480

[ThrowTheDice]

How does Real Bout Special or RBS2 compare?

Heh, the Real Bout series has kind of been a sequence of tone-downs. Real Bout one is batshit crazy, Real Bout Special is still pretty crazy, but everyone has a lot of stuff they can use. Real Bout 2 is the most toned-down, with a lot more concentration on breakshots, mixup, etc. They're all really good, so a big part of it comes down to your personal opinion, but RB2 is generally the most popular, followed by RBS.

[FatalFuryD]

This is the only Fatal Fury game besides the 3D ones that I couldn't get used to. When I first played it it was like.. 'Hey this is like FF3 except FLASHING WORDS EVERYWHERE and ringouts!" I never did get to play competitvely in this game, so maybe in that side of the coin it's a good game. Did this game have the air turnaround?

[Return of Shiki]

Fatal Fury 3 was a terrible, terrible game.

Fortunately, each Real Bout after that got progressively better.

[ThrowTheDice]

This is the only Fatal Fury game besides the 3D ones that I couldn't get used to. When I first played it it was like.. 'Hey this is like FF3 except FLASHING WORDS EVERYWHERE and ringouts!" I never did get to play competitvely in this game, so maybe in that side of the coin it's a good game. Did this game have the air turnaround?

Heh, fortunately this game is nowhere near as utterly broken as FF3 was, and it handles very smoothly. Competitively it's an utter bonanza of things happening. I think you should give it another try, it's a good game. The only thing I can think of that bugs me about it is that momentum is really hard to stop with some characters once they get it ( Mary, Sokaku, Mary, Terry, Mary, Franco, Mary, and maybe Chonrei).


Fatal Fury 3 was a terrible, terrible game.


Yes. Ironically, it was the one that seemed to have the highest production values, with the OMG FLY OFF THE SCREEN round enders, half the cast being new, and the voice-acting during victory screens.

[Return of Shiki]

That's what bothers me about it.

They obviously spent a great deal of money on the completely new graphics and promotion (I'm sure you've all seen the commercial on Youtube), and the game had INCREDIBLE presentation at the time (engaging progressive story, dialogue, fan service, and good original music including Geese's awesome new theme) and yet the gameplay sucks so much shit it's like it was tossed in as an afterthought.

[Virtua_Leon]

Fatal Fury 3 was a terrible, terrible game.

Fortunately, each Real Bout after that got progressively better.

some might say they got more and more boring/watered down to

Rb 1 does have air turn around btw.

It will be interesting to see when the real bout collection arrives which one people will play the most, i suggest anybody that has not really got into any of them start with 2 and work your way back.
If you start with 1 then go up to to you'll only be dissapointed how watered down and dull your fave characters are in 2, maybe with one or two exceptions IE bob wilson off of the top of my head.


in fact put it like this

RB2 = the centurions as humans

RBS = the centurions with all there robot shit on

RB1 = the centurions with all there robot shit on, with crack!!

that's just my personal opinion.
I know alot of people on here like rb2 and i even like rb2 but having played all the other rb games ALOT, it just sticks in the throat sometimes what they done to everybody

[ThrowTheDice]

(I'm sure you've all seen the commercial on Youtube)

Is that... TERRY BOGARD?

@Virtua_Leon: I wouldn't really say "watered down", but there's definitely a decrease of power for everyone from game to game. It sort of goes like this:

RB1: you've got all the tools you need to do just about anything, you need to know what to use and when, and whose tools are better than yours at what.

RBS: You've got one or two good-ass tools, and you need to know how and when you can use those one or two good-ass tools, and how to use your lesser tools to give you another chance to use the good-ass tools.

RB2: You've only got a certain number of tools, and you need to know what stuff your various tools can stop and what they can't, and how to not let your opponent take advantage of what you can't.

Really, all three of the games play completely differently, but they're all balanced enough to be good tourney fodder. I do admit that certain characters get unfair shafting from one game to the next, though. Did ANYONE get better from RBS-RB2?

[Virtua_Leon]

Maybe bob wilson, maybe not better but also not completly shafted

[ThrowTheDice]

Maybe bob wilson, maybe not better but also not completly shafted

Try telling that to Mr. Big, Bob's RBS sidewinder is too good. He might as well be underground when he does that move.

[the supreme]

Real Bout Fatal Fury was the first entry to SNK's "Real Bout" series, and is an awesome game that deserves recognition. It's a great game in that with one or two exceptions, every character has so much abusable BS that it all kind of evens out, creating a surprisingly balanced game. The balance comes at no sacrifice of fun, though: this game is fast and furious. The Ring Out system means that you have to be on your toes the whole match, and is executed surprisingly well. To spark some discussion and get the ball rolling for newcomers, I made a brief tier list:

Disclaimer: The terms middle/low/high etc. are very relative. You could take any of the middle tiers in this game and put them in another game and they'd rocket to top tier in a heartbeat.

Tiers:

Top tier

Sokaku: He’s a MONSTER. THREE fireballs, two of which have full-screen range and hit low, and one of which covers the entire vertical area of the screen. A teleport move that hits overhead, can cross up, and is pretty safe. His shadow moves do tons of chip and give you a free mix-up. His demon punch has huge range, quick startup, and awesome recovery. His pursuit attack can hit from anywhere, and he has a command throw, just for kicks. No matter where you are on the screen, Sokaku can hit you without a lick of risk.

Mary: Zero recovery, insane throwing range, and has a counter for every situation. She’s probably one of the most technical characters in the game.

Terry: Power Geyser is great: quick, huge, high damage, nice chip damage, and completely safe. His Crack Shoot is at its best, and both Burn Knuckles are safe on block from just about any distance. His Power Dunk is surprisingly safe and has fantastic invincibility.


High tier

Kim: Crouch :snka: has great range, almost no pushback, and chains into his combos. High damage with or without meter, great supers, and his Hien Zan is the best it’s ever been: safe, huge range vertically and horizontally, tons of invincibility, and sends the opponent floating really slowly, almost like they’re underwater, leading to a Hien Zan x N semi-infinite.

Hon-Fu: Sky of Fire is safe, damaging, and high-priority. Good pokes, and an even better p-power: almost no startup, covers a lot of ground, and huuuge damage.

Franco: Second only to Sokaku in ring-out ability. Meteo Tackle is instant, covers huge range, and has silly frame advantage, meaning you can combo after it. Power Bicycle is a great anti-air, and his one-two is one of the fastest overheads in the game. Huge limbs means long range on his pokes.

Chonrei: Longest-range crouch :snka: in the game, Crouch :snka: x 5 into combos is too good. In combos ending with a line shift, you can cancel it into a roll and get a wicked mix-up. Solid move list, small hitbox, decent supers, and bitchin’ theme music.

Middle Tier

Billy: huge-ass range with that pole, fantastic supers: flame wheel chips and has high priority, and jumping flame wheel is an anti-air with great range, and is just one big hit, meaning that the opponent can’t fall out in the middle of it.

Geese: Nice pokes, gdlk Reppuken (though it whiffs at close range), his raisin storm is pretty quick, and his Deadly Rave is really easy to do. Great defensive character.

Joe: tornado has incredible recovery and range, he can combo a far/dash :snkc: after a tornado hit from just about anywhere. Tiger Kick is the best anti-air in the game, it even beats out the Sky of Fire (TK is hella unsafe, though.) Slush kick is good for countering pokes, and his :qcb: + :snkb: is good for closing distance.

Chonshu: Chonrei’s crouching :snka: , solid movelist, and teleports. His supers are SHIT, though.

Duck King: Great anti-air, good high-low mixup, and with an s-power he can add throws to his mixup. Hard to use effectively.

Mai: Standing :snka: is an overhead 0.0 . Flame elbow does lots and lots of chip, clone flame super has good priority and a long active time, and she has good priority all around. Doesn’t do as much damage as the rest of the cast on average, though.

Andy: Chou Reppa Dan x N infinite. Lots of moves cover tons of ground and are safe (Kuu Ha Dan, Zanei Ken), two great anti-airs, and an air-to-ground grab. Basically RBS Andy and RBS EX Andy put together.

Low Tier

Yamazaki: Snake Tamer is slow and only has one arc, Daggers are hard to combo into, and his guillotine can’t be comboed into. Lots of his pokes can be crouched, and he’s one of the biggest characters in the game. Now for the good: His rising attack is godly: awesome range and priority, and stops crossups cold. His guillotine has 2/3 screen range and makes a great whiff punisher. It can also ring out from almost anywhere on the screen. Plus, he’s still got his good ol’ counter and p-power throw.

Bob Tier

Bob: lol, poor Bob. His supers are the worst they've ever been, and his specials are nothing to write home about.

NO. These are the real tier because i have played this game since it came out with a large Fatal Fury group since day one, some of whom have also taken their skills to Japan to compete

In Order

TOP:

Geese Howard
Franco Bash
Kim Kap
Billy Kane

Mid

Mai S
Andy
Blue Mary
Sokaku
Chonrei
Terry
Joe

Lower Mid

Yamazaki
Hon Fu
ChonSu

Low

Duck King
Bob

I respect your post but you're posting theoreticals. Real Bout is heavily about matchups too and some characters lose to others easy (Kim beats Blue Mary quite easily, Franco beats Sokaku and most others, Billy beats Sokaku and Hon Fu very very well).


Sokaku & Terry top? You must be kidding.... there are a few characters that beat them well. The real monsters in this game are Franco Bask (JESUS CHRIST!! 2 Infinite combos, low and overhead tricks, ludicrous jump ins and cross ups, superb guard reversal that can be extended, double super that can be extended for full bar damage, great normal super, superb low jabs and pressure game ), Geese (infinite trap in corner B > reppuken that cant be escaped easy, throw into throw trick, Raging Storm corner trap buffer that is nigh impossible to escape even using background, great normal anti air, high damage character, super easy guard reversal, one of the best pressure characters in the game), Kim (ridiculous combo options, godly anti air, possibly the best sweep in the game, stupid overhead or low hit into super combo annoyance mixup), Billy (obscene overprioritised normals such as forward + A, easy high damage combos, double super is a guard reversal, WTF...my character of choice!!). Mai could be considered IMHO top tier worth her mixups, easy combo starters and very high priority jump ins but some say no given the others in that group...

If any one wants an in depth faq with fulll explanation of the tiers I've of posted i'll be happy to oblige and explain exactly why the ones posted before mine are wrong....

[Dark Geese]

some might say they got more and more boring/watered down to

Rb 1 does have air turn around btw.

It will be interesting to see when the real bout collection arrives which one people will play the most, i suggest anybody that has not really got into any of them start with 2 and work your way back.
If you start with 1 then go up to to you'll only be dissapointed how watered down and dull your fave characters are in 2, maybe with one or two exceptions IE bob wilson off of the top of my head.


in fact put it like this

RB2 = the centurions as humans

RBS = the centurions with all there robot shit on

RB1 = the centurions with all there robot shit on, with crack!!

that's just my personal opinion.
I know alot of people on here like rb2 and i even like rb2 but having played all the other rb games ALOT, it just sticks in the throat sometimes what they done to everybody

This is why I like Real Bout Special more..its like almost everyone has a chance, they all have something good and abusable which creates more balance. RB2 is very watered down...

[Dark Geese]

Is that... TERRY BOGARD?

@Virtua_Leon: I wouldn't really say "watered down", but there's definitely a decrease of power for everyone from game to game. It sort of goes like this:

RB1: you've got all the tools you need to do just about anything, you need to know what to use and when, and whose tools are better than yours at what.

RBS: You've got one or two good-ass tools, and you need to know how and when you can use those one or two good-ass tools, and how to use your lesser tools to give you another chance to use the good-ass tools.

RB2: You've only got a certain number of tools, and you need to know what stuff your various tools can stop and what they can't, and how to not let your opponent take advantage of what you can't.

Really, all three of the games play completely differently, but they're all balanced enough to be good tourney fodder. I do admit that certain characters get unfair shafting from one game to the next, though. Did ANYONE get better from RBS-RB2?


I dunno if anyone got better from RBSp to 2...they just play a little differently..if Krauser had his new stuff PLUS the knockdown Tomahawk then I'd say yes but not really..

[Humbag]

RB2 plays much better IMO and feels much more like a tourny worthy fighter.

I consider RB2 the 3s of the series. Look at 2I and all the crazy links and shit you could do compared to 3s. Sure Rb2 has some stuff taken but it plays a like smoother/cleaner. I really just could not get myself to like RB1 and RBS as they felt kinda awkward.

All are great games though.

[Dark Geese]

RB2 plays much better IMO and feels much more like a tourny worthy fighter.

I consider RB2 the 3s of the series. Look at 2I and all the crazy links and shit you could do compared to 3s. Sure Rb2 has some stuff taken but it plays a like smoother/cleaner. I really just could not get myself to like RB1 and RBS as they felt kinda awkward.

All are great games though.

RB2 butchered too much. I like the game don't get me wrong..but it only feels like a small portion of the cast can compete at a tournament level..RBS on the other hand not so much..I wouldnt say the entire tiers are drawn out for RBS yet because theres soo much stuff people have....

Only the top tier in RBS I feel is exact.

Only thing I feel RB2 improved upon is the Tech Roll not requiring meter thing and it added good characters/made Geese tournament playable.

I think they both appeal to different people...

If you gotta have your Rick or X etc...then of course you'll like RB2...

If you like everyone being more powered up but not uberbroken (If you say anything about the "combovideos" its obvious you are a noob..a lot of that ain't practical) you'll like Real Bout Special..

[MUSOLINI]

overal RB2 is the best FF by far (best RB at least). it does suck in 1 aspect though. doesnt anybody else ever notice thies? its got some shitty hitboxes. sometimes jumping in on big characters using the B will whiff while you can clearly see the kick touching the opponent. some of the smaller characters like mary and andy GO THROUGH incoming attacks with some of their normals so that in the end they are the ones with the most benefit from it. its weird, jumping in with a deep C and still going through the opponent.

not to mention the watering down of most of the cast. and yeah, anyody actually did get better from RBS to RB2? i kinda hated on the game when i just got it for my cd in 98, mainly cause of the watering down and loss of a lot of combos/specials for a lot of the characters.

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

RB2 butchered too much. I like the game don't get me wrong..but it only feels like a small portion of the cast can compete at a tournament level..

Says the guy who ranked Krauser above Rick before he was exposed to real players.

I agree with you, if by "small portion" you mean "half the cast". First off, here are characters with real success in Japan:

Rick
Geese
Kim
Terry
Yamazaki
Hon-Fu
Franco
Krauser
Xiangfei
and possibly Chonrei

There are also a couple other candidates:

Chonshu - Not much play in Japan, but objectively seems to be one of the strongest characters. He actually reminds me a bit of ST Claw - scrubby & boring in general, and a bullshit repeating crossup game. Maybe Japan just kinda shuns him like they do Claw. One of Ghostpilot's specialties, so hopefully some of you will get to see him in action at Final Round!

Bob - Here, the reason Japan doesn't use him is extremely obvious: They ban infinites. However, we don't, and he's the one character who receives a major boost from this. Think of him as a de facto grappler - his throw allows him to set up the infinite from more than halfway across the screen!


And going even FURTHER here, some of the lower-tier characters fight some of the good ones very well; for instance, Billy has a strong matchup against Franco, and possibly Hon-Fu and/or Yama as well. Even Tung & Cheng both have a great turtle game - just not much else, which is why they're the worst, but they're still very dangerous if they can somehow get a decent lead.

And finally, one of the main reasons I prefer RB2 is that it finally got the line shifting right. That shit used to be broken in the old Fatal Fury games, then in RB1 and Special it was worthless - 2 made it useful in certain instances, but still risky enough that it doesn't dominate the game. In RB2, and only RB2, line shifting actually adds strategy without dumbing the game down.

OK, that's about enough for the derail! Back on topic...

the supreme, very interesting post! I, for one, would love to see more detailed explanations from you.

-Josh

[Dark Geese]

Says the guy who ranked Krauser above Rick before he was exposed to real players.

I agree with you, if by "small portion" you mean "half the cast". First off, here are characters with real success in Japan:

Rick
Geese
Kim
Terry
Yamazaki
Hon-Fu
Franco
Krauser
Xiangfei
and possibly Chonrei

There are also a couple other candidates:

Chonshu - Not much play in Japan, but objectively seems to be one of the strongest characters. He actually reminds me a bit of ST Claw - scrubby & boring in general, and a bullshit repeating crossup game. Maybe Japan just kinda shuns him like they do Claw. One of Ghostpilot's specialties, so hopefully some of you will get to see him in action at Final Round!

Bob - Here, the reason Japan doesn't use him is extremely obvious: They ban infinites. However, we don't, and he's the one character who receives a major boost from this. Think of him as a de facto grappler - his throw allows him to set up the infinite from more than halfway across the screen!


And going even FURTHER here, some of the lower-tier characters fight some of the good ones very well; for instance, Billy has a strong matchup against Franco, and possibly Hon-Fu and/or Yama as well. Even Tung & Cheng both have a great turtle game - just not much else, which is why they're the worst, but they're still very dangerous if they can somehow get a decent lead.

And finally, one of the main reasons I prefer RB2 is that it finally got the line shifting right. That shit used to be broken in the old Fatal Fury games, then in RB1 and Special it was worthless - 2 made it useful in certain instances, but still risky enough that it doesn't dominate the game. In RB2, and only RB2, line shifting actually adds strategy without dumbing the game down.

OK, that's about enough for the derail! Back on topic...

the supreme, very interesting post! I, for one, would love to see more detailed explanations from you.

-Josh


That list of playable tournament characters is about right...

Yeah and the line shifting is about right in RB2.

[Thief of Mysteria]

I just loved Real Bout special. The plane shifting was really cool, and the great thing about plane shifting is that it always let you take a breather whenever you wanted.

[the supreme]

I just loved Real Bout special. The plane shifting was really cool, and the great thing about plane shifting is that it always let you take a breather whenever you wanted.


This is why I like Real Bout Special more..its like almost everyone has a chance, they all have something good and abusable which creates more balance. RB2 is very watered down...


I'll say this with 100% certainty....PLANE SHIFTING RUINED THIS GAME

RB Special is a nice playing game but very robotic compared to RB. At high levels though its frustrating as hell because you soon realise that some characters are almost unbeatable....

TOP TIER:

Ex Billy / Normal Billy
Kim Kaphwan
Ex Mary
Sokakku

The top 3 are completely ridiculous in normal play. Billy and Kim are the best still because they have the mega abusable plane shift waiting game and the best combo starters and options, very high priority even on As and Bs and esp. on Cs (Strongs). Background hit into combo is the real key to this game.....that alone ruined this game at a tournament level....Billy and Kim have the best background hits in the game and there hardly anything you can do about it when you add in their already awesome arsenal of moves and combos and the fact that you cant attack the easily at all...

Ex Mary is so friggin cheap it beggars belief but her normals and option are just below the other 2

Sokakku is great in this one, they clean him up from RB and made him a force not to be messed with.....

[Dark Geese]

I think Mai is top three in RBS because she has high priority on A's, Bs, her multifan attack etc..very few things beat Mais cr.b ontop of that her hcf+p move is safe..shes an excellent rushdown or turtle character.
For Kim to beat Mai he would have to get in and line shift..if not I believe I can not only beat you zoning but also priority wise with the moves I have.

I think Mai is better than Kim..he has his arsenal of moves plus his plane shift stuff but Mai can zone very well..

What Mai lacks in her Plane shifting she makes up for it with her priority plus Rising Flame special and MultiFan attack..

Multifan attack is also safe on block...its one of the best moves in the game... I'll take a Kim on anyday of the week...Mai can zone better than Kim also.

[Dark Geese]

Also Billy's zoning is the best in the game..combine his zoning with the plane shift, priority and you got the best character in the game.

Mai> Kim in zoning..

My take on the tier list for RBS is-

Billy, Sokaku, Mai, Kim. Ex Mary is probably in there also..

I can beat Billy with Mai...its just about patience, chipping away with the multifan, forcing him 2 break shot and winning via time out..

[the supreme]

Also Billy's zoning is the best in the game..combine his zoning with the plane shift, priority and you got the best character in the game.

Mai> Kim in zoning..

My take on the tier list for RBS is-

Billy, Sokaku, Mai, Kim. Ex Mary is probably in there also..

I can beat Billy with Mai...its just about patience, chipping away with the multifan, forcing him 2 break shot and winning via time out..

I love discussions like this. True, Mai is real tricky to fight against (as she is in RB) , but what if i fight you the whole match by waiting for you in the other background and as soon as you get close i do background hit > pole extend (Billy) or background hit > flip kick (Kim) to reset the distance? Kim and Billy have the best background hits IMHO. Even if you do get me in the same plane i have a high priority jump in, a blocked combo that pushes you away resets conditions and you cant jump at either character. My ground pokes with Kim are superb (crouching B) and if one hits well i get a free combo or super combo. Kims sweep on the ground also keeps you honest, and i can cancel even and max range into the flip kick (which has vitually no recovery). Add to this a overhead/low mind game and i guess thats why i put Kim over Mai...

Sokaku on the other hand s a biatch to fight against....you're right

[Dark Geese]

Ryuenbu has enough priority or Rising Flame attack versus your Plane shifts..this is something I would use against Kim....

Your high priority jump-in would probably get eaten by Mais Rising Flame special (not super)..
I'll post a casual illustrating somewhat what I am talking about..

http://www.stage6.com/user/DarkGeese/video/2039926/Geese-Tower-1-06-08-RBS-Casuals-Dark-Geese-vs--??

Also I will record another casual soon illustrating this..

I wish we could play in person...it'd be good to see somethings..
Also Mai's Hop C has very very good priority as well..

[the supreme]

Ryuenbu has enough priority or Rising Flame attack versus your Plane shifts..this is something I would use against Kim....

Your high priority jump-in would probably get eaten by Mais Rising Flame special (not super)..
I'll post a casual illustrating somewhat what I am talking about..

http://www.stage6.com/user/DarkGeese/video/2039926/Geese-Tower-1-06-08-RBS-Casuals-Dark-Geese-vs--??

Also I will record another casual soon illustrating this..

I wish we could play in person...it'd be good to see somethings..
Also Mai's Hop C has very very good priority as well..

Yeah true, i'd love to test these theories out and see. I remember a tourney we had over here (England) the final was Billy versus Kim. Those characters trashed most of the cast (Mai included). Rising Flame versus plane shifts? That i'd have to see, although i think it a safe ploy for Billy especially....

Her hop C is very high priority but with good reactions i think Hien-zan would snuff that easy...

Where u located?

[Dark Geese]

I am in the US..Texas..
I can see Billy giving Mai a very hard time....

But I wanna see the Kim Mai matchup firsthand..

HienZan I dunno if it'd beat her Rising Flame..it has some insanely good priority around the edges..its something I'd have to see..

Looks like I need to make a trip to Europe to play some Real Bout Special!!!

Rising Flame I use mainly versus jumpins... not plane shifts..Ryu-enbu I use for Plane Shifts...sorry I misworded it I'm at work lol.

I am also open to the idea that every country has different tier lists as well...

I know about this firsthand after going to Mexico.... I just wanna broaden my horizons and see more...

So I aint ruling out anything because I know better...

You surely sound like a worthy opponent...

[the supreme]

Cheers man, you also. Often people talk about game and say this character is good or crap but they havent analyzed the game well or have much experienced. I've play RB and RBS for many years so i like to think i know a bit. RB2 i wasnt keen on but i like Fatal Fury Special....that game is deeeeeeep!

I took to the RB series because i like lesser known fighters sometimes with a cool cast that offers something different. I also wasted my youth on Vampire (Original, Hunter and esp Savior), Karnovs Revenge, World Heroes and Xmen/Marvel Super Heroes, and played hard at each and every one.

I'm going to dust this game off and re-test Mai now that you mentioned it, maybe because of this i'll discover something new about how good she is cause sometimes tiers arent static....

Props for the info....post any vids too, i'll check the one you sent after work!

[Dark Geese]

Yeah I know the feeling..people that talk out of their asses without knowing about certain characters in general..

I went through that with Tung and Athena in NGBC, Young Geese in NeoWave, Duo Lon in KOFXI, and more lol so I just shake my head because a lot of these people dont know any better than what they see around them...

You gotta broaden your horizons!

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Good stuff, guys! Just soaking in the knowledge here. =)

Interesting that the line shift was so powerful in RBS, haven't played that much so I was never aware of this.

And supreme, I still would be interested in reading more in-depth info on RB1. It never got much play in the US, which is why we have to theorize stuff. RB2 has some dedicated online players and the occasional tournament, but not the earlier ones.

-Josh

[Dark Geese]

RB1 will get more play rest assured it will..

besides...Next EVO abhi has requested some play in it so whether it'll get a tournament or not I dunno, but it will get some play EVO World SNK 2008.

[ThrowTheDice]

Is line-shifting really that powerful in RBS? To me, it looks good on paper, but the fact that hitting ANY button causes you to attack anyone in the back/front plane kinda makes it too easy to counter. Or is there something I don't know? (Line shifting has always been my big weakness with RB games)

[Dark Geese]

Certain characters have better line shifting properties than others...

Hence why I always get Ryuenbu ready...

Line shifting also kills Billys otherwise good level one Super..

[MUSOLINI]

is ex mary so high up the ranking cause of her spower? cause without the super, normal mary is obviously the better character. also, in RBS, a lot of characters are overpowered. i thyink characters like terry and hon can also easily compete with any of the highest tiers. same for a lot of other characters, like joe, andy, bob Yamazaki and then some.

[Dark Geese]

is ex mary so high up the ranking cause of her spower? cause without the super, normal mary is obviously the better character. also, in RBS, a lot of characters are overpowered. i thyink characters like terry and hon can also easily compete with any of the highest tiers. same for a lot of other characters, like joe, andy, bob Yamazaki and then some.

See this is my point..more people in RBS can compete than RB2....more than just half the cast can go toe to toe in RBS...

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

See this is my point..more people in RBS can compete than RB2....more than just half the cast can go toe to toe in RBS...

Not if the supreme is to be believed. In case you missed it, he was actually saying that RBS is *not* a good tournament game, since a couple characters can dominate by camping in the background.

Also, if RB2 really is as unbalanced as you say, bet it! My main character is Sokaku, so it should be free for you, right?


OK, now back to the original thread topic!

After messing around with RB1 Franco, I think I've found both of his infinites. Here's the more obvious one:

In corner, [B-C xx d/b,f+Cx2]xN. You have to delay the second d/b,f+C a bit. Can be used as a block string as well.

As for the other, well, his 3-hit strings ending in up+C are really REALLY stupid. That ender is a fast overhead that sends the opponent into the background AND knocks down. Since you can't block in the background/foreground in this game, this allows you to land a GUARANTEED standing D combo when they get up. This, in turn, produces the following infinite:

Any string into up+C, walk forward a bit, Standing D xx d/b,f+Cx2, Far B-B-up+C, Standing D xx etc.

The timing for the link after Meteo Tackle is rather tricky, but plenty doable with practice - you want to move forward a bit before performing the tackle followup. If you get Close B, it will whiff, but Far B will also whiff if you perform the tackle followup too quickly. This infinite can also begin from Close B-C xx Meteo Tackle.

Armageddon Buster also combos from Standing D, if you have it available and want to do something easier. The most practical combo to use for that super is dp+Bx4, qcf+B. BTW, this super also combos from close B-C and the first hit of close C.

His S-Power seems really lame in this one, doesn't combo and it's not even an overhead here. supreme, what good uses for this am I missing?

And what is this great guard cancel you speak of? I don't know of anything that you can extend.


Thanks again,
Josh.

[Dark Geese]

Not if the supreme is to be believed. In case you missed it, he was actually saying that RBS is *not* a good tournament game, since a couple characters can dominate by camping in the background.

Also, if RB2 really is as unbalanced as you say, bet it! My main character is Sokaku, so it should be free for you, right?




Thanks again,
Josh.


And I'm saying more characters have more to offer in general. We both are arguing good valid points..its however way you wish to take it. RB2 is very much watered down...too much...Sokaku is much better in RBS by far..better than in RB2 without a doubt. Most everyone is better in RBS than in RB2...I dont even see how you can even argue against that.

[Keits]

And I'm saying more characters have more to offer in general. We both are arguing good valid points..its however way you wish to take it. RB2 is very much watered down...too much...Sokaku is much better in RBS by far..better than in RB2 without a doubt. Most everyone is better in RBS than in RB2...I dont even see how you can even argue against that.

Bet it. Money match josh's sokaku.

[Dark Geese]

Bet it. Money match josh's sokaku.

Sure I guess..whatever floats you alls boat...

[MUSOLINI]

i think if they would have kept most of the moves from RBS but balanced them out and rearranged them, it could have been a far better game. not to mention if they added more win poses (and special intros and perfect win poses) and all that shit i really missed i RB2. they already took out the stupid bg plane combos in 2, most long chains as well and added the feint moves in combos. just imagine they even would have kept most of their moves from RBS and balanced it that way. some of the extra combos that are gone now but just made them smaller (like terry's df+A, C, C combo, which is now 3 hits, used to be 5 in RBS?). would have been the ultimate FF game for sure. in fact, when i first saw RB2 in a magazine way back before it came out, i was expecting the greatest and biggest FF ever. as soon as it got released i bought it for my neo cd and was really disappointed. so many moves and great things from RBS where gone now. after mastering the game and playing it for a year or so i gave up on it. we played RBS more than RB2. then all of a sudden we got to see RB2 for what it is, the best RB game. though it could have been FAR better. my guess is that it was far easier to balance a game with lesser moves per character than to do so for a game with 10 moves per character.

[Dark Geese]

i think if they would have kept most of the moves from RBS but balanced them out and rearranged them, it could have been a far better game. not to mention if they added more win poses (and special intros and perfect win poses) and all that shit i really missed i RB2. they already took out the stupid bg plane combos in 2, most long chains as well and added the feint moves in combos. just imagine they even would have kept most of their moves from RBS and balanced it that way. some of the extra combos that are gone now but just made them smaller (like terry's df+A, C, C combo, which is now 3 hits, used to be 5 in RBS?). would have been the ultimate FF game for sure. in fact, when i first saw RB2 in a magazine way back before it came out, i was expecting the greatest and biggest FF ever. as soon as it got released i bought it for my neo cd and was really disappointed. so many moves and great things from RBS where gone now. after mastering the game and playing it for a year or so i gave up on it. we played RBS more than RB2. then all of a sudden we got to see RB2 for what it is, the best RB game. though it could have been FAR better. my guess is that it was far easier to balance a game with lesser moves per character than to do so for a game with 10 moves per character.

This guy conveys my attitude about RB2 precisely. I was expecting more than RBS 1.5 w/less moves for characters..which is what it is.. Hell even if they wouldve kept the moves and toned some down like he said it wouldve been a better game..

BUt it seemed like almost an unfinished game to me...Ninjamatt can come in an elaborate on this some more...

If a SNK game has the name "Special" in it except it to be good and a good tribute to the fans..its almost pretty much a Dream Match...

[ThrowTheDice]

QUOTE=the supreme;4852971]NO. These are the real tier because i have played this game since it came out with a large Fatal Fury group since day one, some of whom have also taken their skills to Japan to compete

In Order

TOP:

Geese Howard
Franco Bash
Kim Kap
Billy Kane

Mid

Mai S
Andy
Blue Mary
Sokaku
Chonrei
Terry
Joe

Lower Mid

Yamazaki
Hon Fu
ChonSu

Low

Duck King
Bob

I respect your post but you're posting theoreticals. Real Bout is heavily about matchups too and some characters lose to others easy (Kim beats Blue Mary quite easily, Franco beats Sokaku and most others, Billy beats Sokaku and Hon Fu very very well).


Sokaku & Terry top? You must be kidding.... there are a few characters that beat them well. The real monsters in this game are Franco Bask (JESUS CHRIST!! 2 Infinite combos, low and overhead tricks, ludicrous jump ins and cross ups, superb guard reversal that can be extended, double super that can be extended for full bar damage, great normal super, superb low jabs and pressure game ), Geese (infinite trap in corner B > reppuken that cant be escaped easy, throw into throw trick, Raging Storm corner trap buffer that is nigh impossible to escape even using background, great normal anti air, high damage character, super easy guard reversal, one of the best pressure characters in the game), Kim (ridiculous combo options, godly anti air, possibly the best sweep in the game, stupid overhead or low hit into super combo annoyance mixup), Billy (obscene overprioritised normals such as forward + A, easy high damage combos, double super is a guard reversal, WTF...my character of choice!!). Mai could be considered IMHO top tier worth her mixups, easy combo starters and very high priority jump ins but some say no given the others in that group...

If any one wants an in depth faq with fulll explanation of the tiers I've of posted i'll be happy to oblige and explain exactly why the ones posted before mine are wrong....[/quote]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with a lot of that placement. Geese is a good character, certainly, but by no means top tier. His Reppuken whiffs if decently close, meaning that his pressure strings/infinites are very range-specific. Infinites aren't really anything to write home about in this game, as half the cast have them and most are braindead-easy (Andy, Kim, Geese, Sokaku, Joe, Yamazaki, and Bash off the top of my head), and really Geese's infinite is probably one of the hardest in that group.

Franco "Bask" is good, DAMN good. That's why I put him in high tier. But he has a few weaknessess:

1) Middling anti-air. Power Bicycle gets the job done, but it's slow and doesn't have that much priority.

2) On the slow side. One-two (It's really the A version double-kong, but I think that calling it the one-two sounds cooler ) has great speed, but it also has pushback so it doesn't really let you get in. Meteo Tackle is fast, but the forward movement for it is so slow and the priority of it is bleh, so just tossing it out can get you killed if you're not on the offensive.

3) Though his supers aren't terrible, they definitely don't deserve the title of "great". S-power is super-slow, isn't an overhead (someone was asleep on the job ), it's unsafe, doesn't have great range, and if you're going to use it as an anti-air (which really is its only use), you practically have to do it before they jump. His p-power has zero range, it's slow (just barely comboable from the first hit of his close C), and doesn't do that much damage for all the risk involved. It rings out like a beast, though, I will give it that.

Speaking of ring-outs, I noticed you didn't even mention that. It's one of his greatest strengths. Meteo Tackle + high-low games = OUT OF BOUNDS.

In NO WAY EVER does Franco have a good matchup against Sokaku. Sokaku has just about everything Franco has, but he can do it from full-screen and chip you to hell and back in the meantime.

In fact, that's why Sokaku is top tier. You're turtling somewhere? He'll dance of demons you and get a free, nigh-unblockable mixup. You jump? He'll turn the WHOLE DAMN SCREEN into a hitbox with his thunder bolt, or just do his flame wheel which beats 99% of everything. You're at half-screen and trying to close the distance? He'll demon punch you and either get half a bar of damage or give you chip and have the advantage.

Hon-Fu low? Ludicrous. I could count on one hand the number of things that beat his Sky of Fire, which, by the way, is super-safe, high-damage, guard-cancellable, and has beastly range. His p-power is really damn fast, has great range, and takes off gobs of damage, and his good-ass normals and normal chains give him ample combo opportunity.

If you think that Mary is mid-tier, you've never played one. She's got the hands-down best mixup in the game, and zero risk on anything she does sans the vertical arrow, not to mention she can force aforementioned mixup from just about anywhere because her moves cover tons of ground. As for her supers, her s-power and p-power have fantastic range and great recovery.

Terry, he might not be tops, but there's no way that he's mid. Power Geyser is one of the best supers in the game: Fastest it's ever been, really safe (Just spamming it works!), hits ALL THREE PLANES, negating wakeup lineshifts, huge damage, and 4-5 hits of chip damage on block. His p-power is everything good about his S-power with added range and safeness.

Duck King takes a lot of work, but there's no way he's scraping the bottom. High-speed mixup with his back + A, qcb+B, and s-power, good priority all around, really quick character that can just keep the pressure coming.

[MUSOLINI]

what about yamazakis snake cancel infinite from RB? does this make him top tier cause hes got a corner infinite?

[Josh-TheFunkDOC]

Dice, wakeup line-shifting is a pretty terrible idea in RB1 anyway. The opponent can try a meaty light attack, and even if your reversal is successful he STILL gets a guaranteed standing D.

The thing with Franco is that against most of the cast, any light attack leads to an infinite, anywhere on the screen. I don't see how anyone beats that for practicality. And in the corner he also has an infinite block string ala CE Bison. Who else can match these?

I am interested, though: What are these other characters' infinites?


And to Dark Geese:

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about, exactly.

A good way to demonstrate this is via Guilty Gear. Axl is superficially "better" and "more fun to play" in Accent Core - his long-range pokes now lead to big-damage air combos, his Axl Bomber is now an overhead that has frame advantage and starts huge corner loops, etc. However, he actually had a better chance of winning at high level in Slash! Why?

Because Accent Core is a more top-tier heavy game than Slash was. More simply, the difference between the best and the average is greater in AC. In a head-to-head matchup, AC Axl would definitely beat Slash Axl, yet Slash Axl was better in tournaments since that whole game's cast was weaker than AC's.

What relation does this have to RB, you ask?

Simple! RB2 is basically the Slash of the series, while the others are much worse versions of AC in my view. Sokaku is pretty much an exact "average" character in RB2, which is why I brought him up; I am saying that an average character has a better chance against top-tier in RB2 than in the others. That is all.

-Josh

[ThrowTheDice]

Sokaku's infinite is a properly-spaced caltrop throw over and over in the corner.
Yamazaki's infinite is his usual snake tamer cancel shenanigans.
Andy has an infinite juggle with his s-power.
Kim has an infinite juggle with his Hien Zan, but it's harder than it looks.
Geese has reppuken, A, C, C, Reppuken IIRC
Joe has hurricane upper, close C, hurricane upper.

[Dark Geese]

Dice, wakeup line-shifting is a pretty terrible idea in RB1 anyway. The opponent can try a meaty light attack, and even if your reversal is successful he STILL gets a guaranteed standing D.

The thing with Franco is that against most of the cast, any light attack leads to an infinite, anywhere on the screen. I don't see how anyone beats that for practicality. And in the corner he also has an infinite block string ala CE Bison. Who else can match these?

I am interested, though: What are these other characters' infinites?


And to Dark Geese:

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about, exactly.

A good way to demonstrate this is via Guilty Gear. Axl is superficially "better" and "more fun to play" in Accent Core - his long-range pokes now lead to big-damage air combos, his Axl Bomber is now an overhead that has frame advantage and starts huge corner loops, etc. However, he actually had a better chance of winning at high level in Slash! Why?

Because Accent Core is a more top-tier heavy game than Slash was. More simply, the difference between the best and the average is greater in AC. In a head-to-head matchup, AC Axl would definitely beat Slash Axl, yet Slash Axl was better in tournaments since that whole game's cast was weaker than AC's.

What relation does this have to RB, you ask?

Simple! RB2 is basically the Slash of the series, while the others are much worse versions of AC in my view. Sokaku is pretty much an exact "average" character in RB2, which is why I brought him up; I am saying that an average character has a better chance against top-tier in RB2 than in the others. That is all.

-Josh


Ohhh..okay man..gotcha!!!!

[Akutabi Gamma]

Fatal Fury 3 was a terrible, terrible game.

We may never be friends:amazed::shake::sad:

[the supreme]

Not if the supreme is to be believed. In case you missed it, he was actually saying that RBS is *not* a good tournament game, since a couple characters can dominate by camping in the background.

Also, if RB2 really is as unbalanced as you say, bet it! My main character is Sokaku, so it should be free for you, right?


OK, now back to the original thread topic!

After messing around with RB1 Franco, I think I've found both of his infinites. Here's the more obvious one:

In corner, [B-C xx d/b,f+Cx2]xN. You have to delay the second d/b,f+C a bit. Can be used as a block string as well.

As for the other, well, his 3-hit strings ending in up+C are really REALLY stupid. That ender is a fast overhead that sends the opponent into the background AND knocks down. Since you can't block in the background/foreground in this game, this allows you to land a GUARANTEED standing D combo when they get up. This, in turn, produces the following infinite:

Any string into up+C, walk forward a bit, Standing D xx d/b,f+Cx2, Far B-B-up+C, Standing D xx etc.

The timing for the link after Meteo Tackle is rather tricky, but plenty doable with practice - you want to move forward a bit before performing the tackle followup. If you get Close B, it will whiff, but Far B will also whiff if you perform the tackle followup too quickly. This infinite can also begin from Close B-C xx Meteo Tackle.

Armageddon Buster also combos from Standing D, if you have it available and want to do something easier. The most practical combo to use for that super is dp+Bx4, qcf+B. BTW, this super also combos from close B-C and the first hit of close C.

His S-Power seems really lame in this one, doesn't combo and it's not even an overhead here. supreme, what good uses for this am I missing?

And what is this great guard cancel you speak of? I don't know of anything that you can extend.


Thanks again,
Josh.

Hey Josh,

Yes, that is both his infinites, the second one being retarded because its on overheard combo that’s hard to spot. Yes, you could do damage limitation and stand up and take the hit but a knock against Franco bash has a whole heap of other consequences to…

His Power bicycle move is the key to his game play, its ridiculously annoying if you know how to use it.

But also did you know that you can do the overhead combo after any combo that end in the shoulder barge move (which is usually very safe to use) and it all connects. Even if the crouch block the whole thing the over head will knock into the background which leads to my next point….

His S-Power super 'Armageddon Buster combos FROM A BACKGROUND HIT. This is a major element too….in fact its very dangerous. Why? Because he can get you in the background with a cheap overhead combo if you block low OR Power Bicycle if you jump in (which knocks you into the background if you’re airbourne). From there its background hit > Armageddon Buster > juggle until dead.

Jumping in against Bash is almost impossible in the normal field of play, his jumping Strong air to air beats almost everythig and his Power Bicycle looks like slow startup but its so high priority you’ll still end up in the background sometimes even on counter hit. For an easy death do Power Bicycle (when they jump in) then Background Hit > walk forward slightly, Power Bicycle > Background Hit [x N] until dizzy. This kills anyone who doesn’t have a fast dash evade in the background (so Chonrei for instance might be able to escape). In the corner everyone dies though. Eventually kill with ‘Wuh Duh’ super or another combo after this semi-infinite has done its job…..seriously, he’s so f*cked up…..

My bad though, I thought his guard cancel was the shoulder barge but I think its actually just the double kong overhead which doesn’t have a follow up….

[the supreme]

QUOTE=the supreme;4852971]NO. These are the real tier because i have played this game since it came out with a large Fatal Fury group since day one, some of whom have also taken their skills to Japan to compete

In Order

TOP:

Geese Howard
Franco Bash
Kim Kap
Billy Kane

Mid

Mai S
Andy
Blue Mary
Sokaku
Chonrei
Terry
Joe

Lower Mid

Yamazaki
Hon Fu
ChonSu

Low

Duck King
Bob

I respect your post but you're posting theoreticals. Real Bout is heavily about matchups too and some characters lose to others easy (Kim beats Blue Mary quite easily, Franco beats Sokaku and most others, Billy beats Sokaku and Hon Fu very very well).


Sokaku & Terry top? You must be kidding.... there are a few characters that beat them well. The real monsters in this game are Franco Bask (JESUS CHRIST!! 2 Infinite combos, low and overhead tricks, ludicrous jump ins and cross ups, superb guard reversal that can be extended, double super that can be extended for full bar damage, great normal super, superb low jabs and pressure game ), Geese (infinite trap in corner B > reppuken that cant be escaped easy, throw into throw trick, Raging Storm corner trap buffer that is nigh impossible to escape even using background, great normal anti air, high damage character, super easy guard reversal, one of the best pressure characters in the game), Kim (ridiculous combo options, godly anti air, possibly the best sweep in the game, stupid overhead or low hit into super combo annoyance mixup), Billy (obscene overprioritised normals such as forward + A, easy high damage combos, double super is a guard reversal, WTF...my character of choice!!). Mai could be considered IMHO top tier worth her mixups, easy combo starters and very high priority jump ins but some say no given the others in that group...

If any one wants an in depth faq with fulll explanation of the tiers I've of posted i'll be happy to oblige and explain exactly why the ones posted before mine are wrong....

I'm afraid I have to disagree with a lot of that placement. Geese is a good character, certainly, but by no means top tier. His Reppuken whiffs if decently close, meaning that his pressure strings/infinites are very range-specific. Infinites aren't really anything to write home about in this game, as half the cast have them and most are braindead-easy (Andy, Kim, Geese, Sokaku, Joe, Yamazaki, and Bash off the top of my head), and really Geese's infinite is probably one of the hardest in that group.

Franco "Bask" is good, DAMN good. That's why I put him in high tier. But he has a few weaknessess:

1) Middling anti-air. Power Bicycle gets the job done, but it's slow and doesn't have that much priority.

2) On the slow side. One-two (It's really the A version double-kong, but I think that calling it the one-two sounds cooler ) has great speed, but it also has pushback so it doesn't really let you get in. Meteo Tackle is fast, but the forward movement for it is so slow and the priority of it is bleh, so just tossing it out can get you killed if you're not on the offensive.

3) Though his supers aren't terrible, they definitely don't deserve the title of "great". S-power is super-slow, isn't an overhead (someone was asleep on the job ), it's unsafe, doesn't have great range, and if you're going to use it as an anti-air (which really is its only use), you practically have to do it before they jump. His p-power has zero range, it's slow (just barely comboable from the first hit of his close C), and doesn't do that much damage for all the risk involved. It rings out like a beast, though, I will give it that.

Speaking of ring-outs, I noticed you didn't even mention that. It's one of his greatest strengths. Meteo Tackle + high-low games = OUT OF BOUNDS.

In NO WAY EVER does Franco have a good matchup against Sokaku. Sokaku has just about everything Franco has, but he can do it from full-screen and chip you to hell and back in the meantime.

In fact, that's why Sokaku is top tier. You're turtling somewhere? He'll dance of demons you and get a free, nigh-unblockable mixup. You jump? He'll turn the WHOLE DAMN SCREEN into a hitbox with his thunder bolt, or just do his flame wheel which beats 99% of everything. You're at half-screen and trying to close the distance? He'll demon punch you and either get half a bar of damage or give you chip and have the advantage.

Hon-Fu low? Ludicrous. I could count on one hand the number of things that beat his Sky of Fire, which, by the way, is super-safe, high-damage, guard-cancellable, and has beastly range. His p-power is really damn fast, has great range, and takes off gobs of damage, and his good-ass normals and normal chains give him ample combo opportunity.

If you think that Mary is mid-tier, you've never played one. She's got the hands-down best mixup in the game, and zero risk on anything she does sans the vertical arrow, not to mention she can force aforementioned mixup from just about anywhere because her moves cover tons of ground. As for her supers, her s-power and p-power have fantastic range and great recovery.

Terry, he might not be tops, but there's no way that he's mid. Power Geyser is one of the best supers in the game: Fastest it's ever been, really safe (Just spamming it works!), hits ALL THREE PLANES, negating wakeup lineshifts, huge damage, and 4-5 hits of chip damage on block. His p-power is everything good about his S-power with added range and safeness.

Duck King takes a lot of work, but there's no way he's scraping the bottom. High-speed mixup with his back + A, qcb+B, and s-power, good priority all around, really quick character that can just keep the pressure coming.


Sorry but touché! Geese is most definitely top tier indeed, I didn’t think so myself until we spent a few year finding out why. But he most definateky is because he is varied, high damage and has so nice tricks to boot. In addition he is great against all other top tier characters (Sokaku included - no jump ins, no fire rolls at all, multi hit combo blocked is severely punished, no full screen air dive), the only ones giving him major hassles are Mai, Franco and Billy (or a clever Kim/Blue Mary) ……

Why is he top tier…

*B>Reppuken pressure string – this is not that range specific, you just have to get the oponnent in the corner and then spam away. Even Gamest recognises that this is a bit broken, as they highlighted it. ANYONE WITHOUT A HIGH PRIORITY DRAGON OR ANTI AIR CANNOT ESCAPE THIS WITH A GUARD COUNTER (AND AN APPROPRIATE ONE AT THAT).

As for the infinites in this game being easy, that’s simply not true, they aren’t that easy, esp. in match play. Try doing Yamazaki snake hand cancel infinite in a match, it just cant be done unless you are truly godly. Even Sokaku multi-fireball infinite isn’t easy, it just looks so....

*KOF 95 Heidern style counter – so easy, very very annoying. His guard reversal is high damage. Only use against a grounded opponent or else the rest will miss. After all the hits connect walk forward and do that splash ground pick up throw for style points. And look at the damage….

*Raging strom corner trap – f*ck knows how you get out of this. If Geese gets you in the corner and you don’t have something magical (like Billy Double Super guard counter) you are dead, simple as that. Fast background dashers like Mary or Chonrei cant escape either. This is one thing that is truly unfair. A clever Geese will get you in the corner either through careful normal play or by using the Geneijin shoulder charge guard reversal AND NOT PICKING YOU UP AFTER. Picking you up after such a knockdown changes sides and takes you out of the corner, that’s why you have that option. Once the opponent is in the corner use B > reppuken or the combo ending in multi hitting hard punch > reppuken to build meter then use either >

*Combo ending in multi – punch cancel into Raging Storm
*Combo ending with sweep cancel into Raging Storm
*Uppercut combo cancel into Raging Storm

Repeat until dead. This is vitually in escapeable. Block and guard damage will eventually kill you, don’t block and you’re dead, jump and your dead, background evade and you’re dead too because it hits in the background too…dot underestimate the start up time of this super, its a bitch...

*Geese cannot by jumped in on easily – we all know why, COUNTER! Counters 'crossups' with the D button too. His low counter is risky though but can lead to nice follow up damage extended combo and an pickup throw for high damage

His Normal uppercut is very very decent too.

*Insane pressure game – his game revolves around creating the condition whereby you jump and lose half your energy to Raging Storm, or get Uppercutted and start at square one or get countered, or you block and die to pressure strings, Raging Storm Corner Trap or B > reppuken. A really good Geese also knows to do Background hit Raging Storm if you try to dash around. His versatility is mind game because he can control situations moves ahead, think Magneto in MVC2 (bit nowhere near that stupid!!)

Factor in that he has superb combo starter (crouching B, the light kicks) that can lead to a block combo that moves you forward, which in turn mean he can repeat it. It’s a balance between pressure strings and baiting the opponent for the guard reversal that will miss leading to massive damage loss for them…

He has other stuff such as the double throw trick but I’ll leave you guys to figure that extra stuff out…

As for Franco....Franco is unreal, you underestimate him way too much. Try playing a Franco that plays the air to air Jumping Hard kick game (one of the best normals in the game PEDRIOD), does repeated Hard kick cross ups using the D button, mixes jabs into overhead or just plain overhead to get ring outs, uses Power Bicycle the whole round knowing you cant jump into it even once, the shoulder barge > sweep, shoulder barge > overhead or should barge > sweep > fireball pressure strings and you’ll see that you should revaluate what you’re talking about….he seriously OWNS

Middling anti air? Power Bicycle = Godly, Super = Godly, Dodge evade hit that everyone has with the A button (the high kick move) = godly (it even hits you into the background after ONE HIT!!!!). His Power Bicycle is slow for a reason, but being only a little slowly on startup does not make it weak, its leads to infinites or 75% combos or dizzies…..


You say he’s slow? - he’s not that slow, he's so mobile but even if that were the case of him being slow he has ULTIMATE priority and range on hard moves. His sweep is tops, Jumping strong is best in the game next to Billy’s, he's the best at crossing up next to Billy again, Meteor tackle leads to crazy mixups and is kind of safe when blocked and can lead to long repeat blocked combos. He is one of the few characters that’s has virtually NO bad matchups. He can dash out of the corner without going into the background (I think its charge back > fwd + C), how unfair is that??!

His supers are stupid – The first one is anti air so he can do it repeatedly and you cant jump at it (don’t even think about the background). His second super is of special use but if you know the juggle that’s 75% energy gone...
His supers are the reason he is one of the best comeback characters next to Geese, Billy and a good Mary

I will address you next set of points about Sokkaku, Duck King etc in another post after this one, I just want to check this one first…its cool debating this with you by the way!

[Andre-Spike]

Sorry but touché! Geese is most definitely top tier indeed, I didn’t think so myself until we spent a few year finding out why. But he most definateky is because he is varied, high damage and has so nice tricks to boot. In addition he is great against all other top tier characters (Sokaku included - no jump ins, no fire rolls at all, multi hit combo blocked is severely punished, no full screen air dive), the only ones giving him major hassles are Mai, Franco and Billy (or a clever Kim/Blue Mary) ……

Why is he top tier…

*B>Reppuken pressure string – this is not that range specific, you just have to get the oponnent in the corner and then spam away. Even Gamest recognises that this is a bit broken, as they highlighted it. ANYONE WITHOUT A HIGH PRIORITY DRAGON OR ANTI AIR CANNOT ESCAPE THIS WITH A GUARD COUNTER (AND AN APPROPRIATE ONE AT THAT).

As for the infinites in this game being easy, that’s simply not true, they aren’t that easy, esp. in match play. Try doing Yamazaki snake hand cancel infinite in a match, it just cant be done unless you are truly godly. Even Sokaku multi-fireball infinite isn’t easy, it just looks so....

*KOF 95 Heidern style counter – so easy, very very annoying. His guard reversal is high damage. Only use against a grounded opponent or else the rest will miss. After all the hits connect walk forward and do that splash ground pick up throw for style points. And look at the damage….

*Raging strom corner trap – f*ck knows how you get out of this. If Geese gets you in the corner and you don’t have something magical (like Billy Double Super guard counter) you are dead, simple as that. Fast background dashers like Mary or Chonrei cant escape either. This is one thing that is truly unfair. A clever Geese will get you in the corner either through careful normal play or by using the Geneijin shoulder charge guard reversal AND NOT PICKING YOU UP AFTER. Picking you up after such a knockdown changes sides and takes you out of the corner, that’s why you have that option. Once the opponent is in the corner use B > reppuken or the combo ending in multi hitting hard punch > reppuken to build meter then use either >

*Combo ending in multi – punch cancel into Raging Storm
*Combo ending with sweep cancel into Raging Storm
*Uppercut combo cancel into Raging Storm

Repeat until dead. This is vitually in escapeable. Block and guard damage will eventually kill you, don’t block and you’re dead, jump and your dead, background evade and you’re dead too because it hits in the background too…dot underestimate the start up time of this super, its a bitch...

*Geese cannot by jumped in on easily – we all know why, COUNTER! Counters 'crossups' with the D button too. His low counter is risky though but can lead to nice follow up damage extended combo and an pickup throw for high damage

His Normal uppercut is very very decent too.

*Insane pressure game – his game revolves around creating the condition whereby you jump and lose half your energy to Raging Storm, or get Uppercutted and start at square one or get countered, or you block and die to pressure strings, Raging Storm Corner Trap or B > reppuken. A really good Geese also knows to do Background hit Raging Storm if you try to dash around. His versatility is mind game because he can control situations moves ahead, think Magneto in MVC2 (bit nowhere near that stupid!!)

Factor in that he has superb combo starter (crouching B, the light kicks) that can lead to a block combo that moves you forward, which in turn mean he can repeat it. It’s a balance between pressure strings and baiting the opponent for the guard reversal that will miss leading to massive damage loss for them…

He has other stuff such as the double throw trick but I’ll leave you guys to figure that extra stuff out…

As for Franco....Franco is unreal, you underestimate him way too much. Try playing a Franco that plays the air to air Jumping Hard kick game (one of the best normals in the game PEDRIOD), does repeated Hard kick cross ups using the D button, mixes jabs into overhead or just plain overhead to get ring outs, uses Power Bicycle the whole round knowing you cant jump into it even once, the shoulder barge > sweep, shoulder barge > overhead or should barge > sweep > fireball pressure strings and you’ll see that you should revaluate what you’re talking about….he seriously OWNS

Middling anti air? Power Bicycle = Godly, Super = Godly, Dodge evade hit that everyone has with the A button (the high kick move) = godly (it even hits you into the background after ONE HIT!!!!). His Power Bicycle is slow for a reason, but being only a little slowly on startup does not make it weak, its leads to infinites or 75% combos or dizzies…..


You say he’s slow? - he’s not that slow, he's so mobile but even if that were the case of him being slow he has ULTIMATE priority and range on hard moves. His sweep is tops, Jumping strong is best in the game next to Billy’s, he's the best at crossing up next to Billy again, Meteor tackle leads to crazy mixups and is kind of safe when blocked and can lead to long repeat blocked combos. He is one of the few characters that’s has virtually NO bad matchups. He can dash out of the corner without going into the background (I think its charge back > fwd + C), how unfair is that??!

His supers are stupid – The first one is anti air so he can do it repeatedly and you cant jump at it (don’t even think about the background). His second super is of special use but if you know the juggle that’s 75% energy gone...
His supers are the reason he is one of the best comeback characters next to Geese, Billy and a good Mary

I will address you next set of points about Sokkaku, Duck King etc in another post after this one, I just want to check this one first…its cool debating this with you by the way!

Hi the_supreme, I've been reading your posts here and I'm a novice in the series, besides I've played "for fun" only on the period that the game(s) was released.
I have some questions for your, maybe you can help me:

About the other titles of the franchise, waht can you tell me about their tiers lists, like FFS, FF3 and RB2.

I've been playing RB1 with Mary and I felt a little matchup in her against Andy, the "air-dodge" of Andy's looks like null her game since she cant use any ateminage or shory, am I crrect?
Thanks man.