A strong indication that SF4 will be a hit with non-hardcore players

[Yagami]

http://kotaku.com/362034/the-street-fighter-iv-aou-trailer

Check out the comments by people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

It's time for us to come out of our elitist shell and look at the bigger picture: Just because we've been used to the 'purity' of 2d, doesn't mean that 2d is the way to go. Don't think of Capcom going 3s as selling out, no, lets think of it as Capcom giving us many, many new people and friends to play SF with.

[DevilJin 01]

You are my new friend.

[pootnannies]

...:rofl:

[Roshihikari]

The maker of the game said, that he targets not only the 'hardcore players' but the people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

[pootnannies]

The maker of the game said, that he targets not only the 'hardcore players' but the people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

have you been living under a rock for the past two weeks?

[Hellion]

The maker of the game said, that he targets not only the 'hardcore players' but the people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

...
Well, yeah, it's only good business.

[Don Mack]

Finally people are starting to realize that Ono knew what he was doing. The haters/elitist can go back into their caves and play sf3.

[Tigerboi]

.............

The game will be a success, because capcom is promoting the game perfectly, but...


this is just marketing. I mean, do we honestly care?

[ssjtin]

.............

The game will be a success, because capcom is promoting the game perfectly, but...


this is just marketing. I mean, do we honestly care?

If it gets more people into the game, yes we do.

[Nokato]

So prefering 2-D over 3-D means someone is being elitist? Whatever happened to preference? I totally understand why he's doing it and despite what I've said about the game I'm sure I'll play it in some form...I still just prefer 2-D animation over 3-D models..

[glass]

the fact is you can have a pretty game with good gameplay. a lot of people talk like it's one at the cost of the other.

[Tigerboi]

If it gets more people into the game, yes we do.

But more people doesn't always equal more competition though. I'm going to buy the game either way, and I will have people to play with. I couldn't give a shit less what capcom makes from it.

[pherai]

Everybody has their limits of what they will compromise for a larger playerbase. I don't think its anymore elitist to say "it should be 2d" than saying "it shouldn't be a DOA clone with SF characters in it." It's when you say things like "it should be 2d so I won't be bothered with all the lesser beings of the gaming world" that you start to be elitist.

[pc1x1]

I always wanted friends! Yay!

[crazydiamond]

So long as the gameplay rewards learning it can only be a good thing that more people play it. Just more people to add to your winning streak.

[Dark Symphony]

http://kotaku.com/362034/the-street-fighter-iv-aou-trailer

Check out the comments by people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

It's time for us to come out of our elitist shell and look at the bigger picture: Just because we've been used to the 'purity' of 2d, doesn't mean that 2d is the way to go. Don't think of Capcom going 3s as selling out, no, lets think of it as Capcom giving us many, many new people and friends to play SF with.


I don't get it... if the goal was to bring in a bunch of new players as well, then why such an odd style for the models... you think something a bit more generic and just pretty...

And what do they hope to do with the dated, 1991 borderline racist character designs? Why not update them? Bringi n the casuals with the looks and the hardcores with the gameplay. So simple, to me yet no one gets it...

[pherai]

So simple, to me yet no one gets it...

Dude give me a break. SF designs aren't racist, and the designs aren't keeping anyone from the game. The whole move to 3d was to make it more aesthetically appealing. Don't act like nobody gets it when its really just something only you want.

"Oh, I don't understand why nobody gets it! They could bring in tons of players if they had a character named pherai who was beyond broken and had sex with hot women for his win pose! So simple, but nobody seems to get it!!!"

[Son Them All]

http://kotaku.com/362034/the-street-fighter-iv-aou-trailer

Check out the comments by people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

It's time for us to come out of our elitist shell and look at the bigger picture: Just because we've been used to the 'purity' of 2d, doesn't mean that 2d is the way to go. Don't think of Capcom going 3s as selling out, no, lets think of it as Capcom giving us many, many new people and friends to play SF with.

Fruedian slip? :rofl:

[Ultima]

The game is 2D.

[Dark Symphony]

Dude give me a break. SF designs aren't racist, and the designs aren't keeping anyone from the game. The whole move to 3d was to make it more aesthetically appealing. Don't act like nobody gets it when its really just something only you want.

"Oh, I don't understand why nobody gets it! They could bring in tons of players if they had a character named pherai who was beyond broken and had sex with hot women for his win pose! So simple, but nobody seems to get it!!!"


See, in 1991, such stereotypical designs were cool. Nowadays, those without the connection are going to see a lot of generic bizniss. ooh! Big russian in a speedo! WOW! Indian Witchdoctor! Hey! A Japanese Sumo!

Maybe we'll even get lucky and get Dee Jay, FeiLong and T. Hawk since they spit on the notion of stereotype.

Sorry, bro. The designs are old and dated. You know... since they came out in 1991. Just going 3D isn't enough since the average joe expects it now. I see using such dated designs in a game where one of the focuses is to bring ni new players as contradictory.

If you're incapable of thinking outside of the box and seeing other point of veiws, whatever. Just because we grew up with those designs doesn't mean they were some magic creations that somehow are invulnerable to the test of time.

[DevilJin 01]

Well...I mean Mario and Luigi seem to be pretty invulnerable these days. Smash games still sell very well despite using a lot of old character designs from like the early 80s and 90s.

Just as a general question...do you think Ryu, Ken and the other SF characters can still bring in new people like Mario, Kirby and Zelda have in the past? Just by sheer iconism? It seems people still get hype over a new Mario or Kirby game and design wise they haven't changed a whole lot over the years.

[Ki Shima]

this game looks beautiful in HD, im pretty positive that this game will be good.

ill be perfectly honest though. if they dont have anything to change the costume's completely then that will effect me, cos i know they can do better in terms of style

[pherai]

Sorry, bro. The designs are old and dated. You know... since they came out in 1991. Just going 3D isn't enough since the average joe expects it now. I see using such dated designs in a game where one of the focuses is to bring ni new players as contradictory.

All this stuff is your opinion, and the vast majority of players are content with the designs remaining. You act like I'm in the minority, and just blind to the truth, but those characters costumes are iconic, and no one won't by the game because of dated costumes.


If you're incapable of thinking outside of the box and seeing other point of veiws, whatever. Just because we grew up with those designs doesn't mean they were some magic creations that somehow are invulnerable to the test of time.

If you're incapable of making an argument without insulting people who disagree with you, then please shut the fuck up. Virtually nobody wants the designs changed, and you're just butt hurt and stamping your feet like a bitch cause no one agrees with you.

[MaybeMemories]

Op is correct

when 3S came out, ppl bitched about lack of old characters ! i still dream about blanka being able to parry and do some cool ass oro type juggling SA.

anyway i have never seen any game being bitched about so much, i wonder if the final fantasy fans bitch this much, its a big game !

you all want new moves but when you get them youll moan about how broken they are and compare them to the old ones.

and 2D = preference ? SERIOUSLY?, do you still play Click adventure games?

[crazydiamond]

The game is 2D.

That's some hardcore denial right there.

[Akutabi Gamma]

The game is 2D.

With 3D grafix. ...but seriously just wait til the Top Tiers are abused online and most gamers start shying away; TEHY CAN'T HANDLE TEH PRESSURE!!!111

[*Onslaught*]

That's some hardcore denial right there.

So much irony in this statement.:rofl:

[Pervert_Q]

I honestly don't understand why anyones bitching about anything. For those of you who are, you seriously need to shut the fuck up and be grateful that sfIV is coming at all. If you don't like it ... HEY super turbo hd remix is coming soon, and all you whiners can sit in a circle jerk doing claw cross ups while watching match vids of Tokido. Personally, I'll be playing both.... and I'll be doing claw cross ups all day.

[ORV]

They're giving us new friends to own! :)

[Helter Skelter]

The game is 2D.

Are the first Virtua Fighter and Tekken games 2D?

[Strider2k2]

Are the first Virtua Fighter and Tekken games 2D?

Is that a serious question?

Of course not. Tekken and VF were always 3D.

[DevilJin 01]

Are the first Virtua Fighter and Tekken games 2D?

Not really cuz you were in some way able to move around in a 3d plane in those games. Granted you could only do that when you fell on the ground as an evasion maneuver but the game still allowed you to do it. Pretty much any throw or certain types of attacks would put you on a different plane as well.

[magdalenarules]

So prefering 2-D over 3-D means someone is being elitist? Whatever happened to preference? I totally understand why he's doing it and despite what I've said about the game I'm sure I'll play it in some form...I still just prefer 2-D animation over 3-D models..
But can't you still just shut the fuck up anyway though since Ono has now said explicitly in his recent interview that it wasn't financially feasible to do a hand-drawn street fighter? Like you may as well complain that Capcom isn't personally purchasing every vacant plot of land in America that are separated from each other by at least 10 miles and erecting arcades which will have street fighter 4 cabinets in them and advertising twice per day on every television channel in america that we should all go out to our local street fighter 4 arcade chains nearest us and fight each other in street fighter 4 for just 25 cents to start, 25 cents to continue/challenge. I mean that would be great too but it's not financially feasible so the best alternative is to shut the fuck up and stop cluttering the internet with useless bytes of data that don't mean anything

[Nokato]

But can't you still just shut the fuck up anyway though since Ono has now said explicitly in his recent interview that it wasn't financially feasible to do a hand-drawn street fighter? Like you may as well complain that Capcom isn't personally purchasing every vacant plot of land in America that are separated from each other by at least 10 miles and erecting arcades which will have street fighter 4 cabinets in them and advertising twice per day on every television channel in america that we should all go out to our local street fighter 4 arcade chains nearest us and fight each other in street fighter 4 for just 25 cents to start, 25 cents to continue/challenge. I mean that would be great too but it's not financially feasible so the best alternative is to shut the fuck up and stop cluttering the internet with useless bytes of data that don't mean anything



Its pretty obvious that you're trolling and that you had nothing else to do today but attack a post that was a few days old simply because, I don't know maybe you're having a bad day. It's a forum, opinions are expressed on forums. Why get in such a tiff over one person who would've preferred a 2-D game, I don't care what's feasible by Capcom my opinion is my opinion. Market sales, the current climate of the gaming industry doesn't affect my preference. Again, I didn't say anything negative about the game or incite anything I simply stated like others have here, a preference for 2-D. I wasn't bashing anyone for liking SFIV either..yet here we are again.

I wasn't even going to say anything but...this is ridiculous. Anyways, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
You got the right idea, force people to like SFIV by flaming them.

[DevilJin 01]

Yeah...don't go making responses to guys with tons of negative rep. He's just another pyromaniac looking to start another flame.

[KnightWarrior]

The Game is 3D, But played on a 2D Plain

[magdalenarules]

I wasn't attacking you I was just saying, we all know 2D is better and would have preferred it, but since it's not financially feasible what do you accomplish by stating your preference otherwise? You'd have rathered they not produce a SF4 at all? Since that was the only other financial option. Continuing to "state your preference" is useless is all I'm saying. It's not just you I'm basically talking to everyone who bitches about it not being 2D or continues to mention which parts look worse than 3rd strike. It's just like "yeah dude we know but it's this or nothing so can't you guys just shut the fuck up and move on" is all I'm saying. Fuck dude, just wait until Street Fighter 6 and ask yoshinori Ono what would his honest to goodness preference would have been for SF4 assuming an unlimited budget and he will even tell you he'd have preferred 2D

[beto]

See, in 1991, such stereotypical designs were cool. Nowadays, those without the connection are going to see a lot of generic bizniss. ooh! Big russian in a speedo! WOW! Indian Witchdoctor! Hey! A Japanese Sumo!

Maybe we'll even get lucky and get Dee Jay, FeiLong and T. Hawk since they spit on the notion of stereotype.

Sorry, bro. The designs are old and dated. You know... since they came out in 1991. Just going 3D isn't enough since the average joe expects it now. I see using such dated designs in a game where one of the focuses is to bring ni new players as contradictory.

If you're incapable of thinking outside of the box and seeing other point of veiws, whatever. Just because we grew up with those designs doesn't mean they were some magic creations that somehow are invulnerable to the test of time.

The original SF 2 designs were never racist and only people like you would look that far into it. You basically want Capcom to change the designs of the same classic characters that were so successful and became iconic. If Nintendo ever changed Mario's design to look more "kool", "modern", "futuristic" or whatever you think is "thinking outside of the box" it probably wouldn't be as successful as the original Mario. They did it to Superman in the 90's and it didn't work. This is the same kind of thinking that just added more to the failure of SF 3. They added all these new characters and then what? Oh yeah they had to add in Ryu and Ken because people weren't liking SF 3. By Third Strike they finally added two more SF2 characters. Capcom already tried doing something different from SF 2. For SF 4 they are including the original 8 SF 2 characters and it looks like a few more new characters will be created. This is what Capcom should have done for SF 3 so more people would have noticed it.

[arstal]

Here's the issue. How many of these casuals will keep playing after they got online and get owned by Kaillera Warrior #9454? The key is retaining new players, and that can only come with quality. That said, the two aren't exclusive- and it's refreshing to see a new game that isn't going in the direction of Guilty Gear. That alone will be the reason I get heavy into SFIV if it's not terrible- I want diversity in my FG's.

[Gaijinblaze]

The original SF 2 designs were never racist and only people like you would look that far into it. You basically want Capcom to change the designs of the same classic characters that were so successful and became iconic. If Nintendo ever changed Mario's design to look more "kool", "modern", "futuristic" or whatever you think is "thinking outside of the box" it probably wouldn't be as successful as the original Mario. They did it to Superman in the 90's and it didn't work. This is the same kind of thinking that just added more to the failure of SF 3. They added all these new characters and then what? Oh yeah they had to add in Ryu and Ken because people weren't liking SF 3. By Third Strike they finally added two more SF2 characters. Capcom already tried doing something different from SF 2. For SF 4 they are including the original 8 SF 2 characters and it looks like a few more new characters will be created. This is what Capcom should have done for SF 3 so more people would have noticed it.
Doesn't Mario wear real denim overalls in Brawl now? It used to be plain blue fabric.

[Gutter Trash]

if the game was 2D, we would of had a 10 man roster game and that would be it for the first installment.
2D sprites, especially SF3 style take much much more time to animate than 3D animation.

So instead of having your first installment of new SF series with roster of 8 - 10 characters, you will get a roster of 16+ characters with 3D animation.

it's faster to animate in 3D, and it's simpler to return to correct and polish the animations.

I love 2D fighters just as much as everyone else, but I do not want a 10 man roster in my next fighting game.

So far, with the location vids we have seen on youtube, I am happy so far with what I have seen.

[Yurinka]

http://kotaku.com/362034/the-street-fighter-iv-aou-trailer

Check out the comments by people who have never played a Street Fighter before.

It's time for us to come out of our elitist shell and look at the bigger picture: Just because we've been used to the 'purity' of 2d, doesn't mean that 2d is the way to go. Don't think of Capcom going 3s as selling out, no, lets think of it as Capcom giving us many, many new people and friends to play SF with.

Fully agree with you. But sadly there are tons of hardcore haters in severall forums like that, snk-capcom or shoryuken. Let's hope they can turn open-minded.

[hawpi]

Design of the characters can not be messed with. Too iconic. I don't think they want to get new players but get back those players that remember it from thier younger days that use to play it which is why you can not change the character design too much. Some dude will walk into a store and see the game running on the floor machine and be "HOLY SH!T street fighter......IV, when the f*ck did 3 come out?!" Hopefully that will bring some fond memories of him and his friends huddled around a machine with a row of quarters up on the screen and he'll decide to pick the game up. Being that thier is an online component making competition readily available he'll be tossing in SFIV instead of halo, cod4 before going to bed. Hopefully enough of his friends picked it up that when they all are chillin at his pad they are playing SF instead of dat madden. That needs to happen times a million if we want to see any future installments. Think they are making all the right decisions to make that happen.

[MYK jamgi]

the game is 2.5D imo

[Superking]

Is that a serious question?

Of course not. Tekken and VF were always 3D.

Not really cuz you were in some way able to move around in a 3d plane in those games. Granted you could only do that when you fell on the ground as an evasion maneuver but the game still allowed you to do it. Pretty much any throw or certain types of attacks would put you on a different plane as well.

lol no.

Early VF and Tekken were only on a 2D plane, what made them look "3D" were the funky camera angles used in gameplay.

VF and Tekken did not get sidestepping until their 3rd iterations respectively.

Toshinden actually beat both to it. :rofl:

[Gutter Trash]

my non-hardcore friends who used to play SF2 on SNES/Genesis or on the arcade cab always say the same thing to me when I try to make them play SF3:

"where is Dhali? (a Dhalsim fan), where is Blanka?"

always, always you will hear these people who been disconnected for some time and who wonder where are their SF2 characters at.

I showed my non-hardcore friend the SF4 trailers, he got really happy to see his Dhalsim doing is stuff, he is happy.

Ono did the right thing.

[Roshihikari]

my non-hardcore friends who used to play SF2 on SNES/Genesis or on the arcade cab always say the same thing to me when I try to make them play SF3:

"where is Dhali? (a Dhalsim fan), where is Blanka?"

always, always you will hear these people who been disconnected for some time and who wonder where are their SF2 characters at.

I showed my non-hardcore friend the SF4 trailers, he got really happy to see his Dhalsim doing is stuff, he is happy.

Ono did the right thing.

I know. The people just miss the old 'characters'. If they changed the Necro skin to Dhalsim/Blanka, would be different. The gameplay is there, just not the skins.

[DevilJin 01]

lol no.

Early VF and Tekken were only on a 2D plane, what made them look "3D" were the funky camera angles used in gameplay.

VF and Tekken did not get sidestepping until their 3rd iterations respectively.

Toshinden actually beat both to it. :rofl:

I thought you could at least roll to side when you fell down in those games? Maybe I'm mistaken. Generally the games were played in a 2d plane that's true.

[Lebowsk1]

Ono's explanation for why the models are 3D is surely the only one that could satisfy the people who wanted a 2D SFIV (that it is just too expensive).

[Roshihikari]

What is too expensive?

[Hatred Edge]

lol no.

Early VF and Tekken were only on a 2D plane, what made them look "3D" were the funky camera angles used in gameplay.

VF and Tekken did not get sidestepping until their 3rd iterations respectively.

Toshinden actually beat both to it. :rofl:

Your avatar is awesome.:rofl:

[ringopan]

the people who grew up with street fighter in the 90s (like me), are all adults now. most teenagers today have little, to no attachment to the street fighter franchise - the same way they could care less about ninja turtles or g.i. joe.

in addition to bringing back the old magic of SF2 in order to appeal to old fans, Ono must not forget that SF4 also has to also create new appeal to attract a new age of gamers.

[Roshihikari]

the people who grew up with street fighter in the 90s (like me), are all adults now. most teenagers today have little, to no attachment to the street fighter franchise - the same way they could care less about ninja turtles or g.i. joe.

in addition to bringing back the old magic of SF2 in order to appeal to old fans, Ono must not forget that SF4 also has to also create new appeal to attract a new age of gamers.

They already are. They bought out Street Fighter comics, Street Fighter movie, TV shows, Street Fighter keyboard, Street Fighter controllers, all these things.

[Tigerboi]

What is too expensive?

Making 2d sprites. it takes too much time and too much money. That's possibly the main reason the industry as a whole moved onto 3D graphics.

[Roshihikari]

I would have thought making 3D sprites would take longer, since they are not just an 'image' but have depth and possibly more details.

[DarkNecrid]

I would have thought making 3D sprites would take longer, since they are not just an 'image' but have depth and possibly more details.

It's actually cheaper, modifying a model is a lot easier than making new sprite animations by hand.

[Roshihikari]

Aren't they making the 3D models by hand anyway?

[Tigerboi]

I would have thought making 3D sprites would take longer, since they are not just an 'image' but have depth and possibly more details.

At first thought yes, that does make sense, but with 3D models you don't have to draw each frame by hand. Artists literately have to draw thousands of frames of animation and possibly do them all over again because the technical specs of the game won't allow what they've originally done. With 3D models, it's easie because they are rendered on a computer, shaped properly and the textures are simply added on. that's not to say it's EASY but it is EASIER and takes alot less time.

This is basically why companies usually always reuse 2D sprites. Capcom does it. Arc does it. SNK does it. Konami does it.

[Roshihikari]

OH I see, thanks.

[Jimmy Bones]

my non-hardcore friends who used to play SF2 on SNES/Genesis or on the arcade cab always say the same thing to me when I try to make them play SF3:

"where is Dhali? (a Dhalsim fan), where is Blanka?"

always, always you will hear these people who been disconnected for some time and who wonder where are their SF2 characters at.

I showed my non-hardcore friend the SF4 trailers, he got really happy to see his Dhalsim doing is stuff, he is happy.

Ono did the right thing.

You're right. Ono wants everybody to compete, hardcore and non-hardcore players. My Brother was a SF fan, since 3S came out, stuff like parrying, he had a hard time playin', then he stops playin it. But this game(SF4) will change his mind, the Save Attack they add is a great idea. 4 real, i want my bro to get his fighting spirit back, so i can play wit him again. There's should be a Tournament Mode, my boys and i will play er'nite and real competition is back. It Should be the same thang 4 the arcade nation. As 4 the online play, non-hardcore players wont be scared to play against good players. Its going to be good 4 anyone. Anyways, i say that this game will be like one of these games that we will play 4 the next decades, just like the other SF games....

[Helter Skelter]

lol no.

Early VF and Tekken were only on a 2D plane, what made them look "3D" were the funky camera angles used in gameplay.

VF and Tekken did not get sidestepping until their 3rd iterations respectively.

Toshinden actually beat both to it. :rofl:

Correct answer.

[pherai]

If Arc Systems can afford to make 2D sprite games, I'm sure Capcom could. I think it has more to do with making the game more appealing to the mainstream gaming market.

[Roshihikari]

Yeah, I guess they could have sourced a company like 'UDON' to draw new sprites if they wanted.

[theprodigy]

If Arc Systems can afford to make 2D sprite games, I'm sure Capcom could. I think it has more to do with making the game more appealing to the mainstream gaming market.

My thoughts exactly!

[glass]

If Arc Systems can afford to make 2D sprite games, I'm sure Capcom could. I think it has more to do with making the game more appealing to the mainstream gaming market.

i think the tricky part is jumping over the bar 3S's animation put in place.

[clue2025]

Well...I mean Mario and Luigi seem to be pretty invulnerable these days. Smash games still sell very well despite using a lot of old character designs from like the early 80s and 90s.

Just as a general question...do you think Ryu, Ken and the other SF characters can still bring in new people like Mario, Kirby and Zelda have in the past? Just by sheer iconism? It seems people still get hype over a new Mario or Kirby game and design wise they haven't changed a whole lot over the years.

Yeah but they also came out with good games even though every Zelda game was the same as the last. Mario came out with good games too. Although they took it a bit far with the sports series...

But then on the other side, you have Sonic the Hedgehog. The last good game Sonic had was Adventure 1 and 2. Anything between Sonic & Knuckles was a bomb and a half and anything since Adventure has been very shotty.

So its a thin line. I guess since 3s wasn't as publicized people want to see the old characters. I still would have preferred more than just a "revenge system" with 2 or 3 ST characters, 2 or 3 3S characters, and the rest new characters. Maybe even some Alpha characters.

[SAPhoenix]

i think the tricky part is jumping over the bar 3S's animation put in place.

I disagree. I'm sure that if 2D sprite games were still considered mainstream, it wouldn't have been an issue. As Pherai correctly stated, it has more to do with appealing to the mainstream market than anything else.

I think people often forget that Capcom still needs to make money at the end of the day. If they wanted to, they could have made SFIV a 2d sprite-based game that surpassed SF3 in terms of animation. They set the bar, so I don't think it would be that difficult for them to surpass it. The question is, how well would it sell?

[Ki Shima]

I disagree. I'm sure that if 2D sprite games were still considered mainstream, it wouldn't have been an issue. As Pherai correctly stated, it has more to do with appealing to the mainstream market than anything else.

I think people often forget that Capcom still needs to make money at the end of the day. If they wanted to, they could have made SFIV a 2d sprite-based game that surpassed SF3 in terms of animation. They set the bar, so I don't think it would be that difficult for them to surpass it. The question is, how well would it sell?


................................

its funny how people over look the fact that the parrying system had A LOT to do with the animation, which allowed it to look so beautiful and retain the fun and intense factor

[Helter Skelter]

its funny how people over look the fact that the parrying system had A LOT to do with the animation
:confused:

[SAPhoenix]

................................

its funny how people over look the fact that the parrying system had A LOT to do with the animation, which allowed it to look so beautiful and retain the fun and intense factor

I'm lost...

[MaybeMemories]

If Arc Systems can afford to make 2D sprite games, I'm sure Capcom could. I think it has more to do with making the game more appealing to the mainstream gaming market.

arnt arcs reusing the original cast sprites over and over? maybe with slight modifications? PLUS guilty gear has proven a huge hit, its a huge gamble for sf4 since sf3 was a failure [which it was]

[glass]

I disagree. I'm sure that if 2D sprite games were still considered mainstream, it wouldn't have been an issue. As Pherai correctly stated, it has more to do with appealing to the mainstream market than anything else.

I think people often forget that Capcom still needs to make money at the end of the day. If they wanted to, they could have made SFIV a 2d sprite-based game that surpassed SF3 in terms of animation. They set the bar, so I don't think it would be that difficult for them to surpass it. The question is, how well would it sell?

mm.. okay we'll agree to disagree, but that's not really a counter-argument.

................................

its funny how people over look the fact that the parrying system had A LOT to do with the animation, which allowed it to look so beautiful and retain the fun and intense factor

i don't know about 'beautiful' but i'm sure parrying is easier to implement in a game that runs at 60 fps.

[magdalenarules]

i think the tricky part is jumping over the bar 3S's animation put in place.
Exactly. If Capcom put out a 2D game called Street Fighter 4 that looked like Guilty Gear there would be just as much complaining as there is now about how the game simply doesn't move as nicely as 3rd strike. Would people rather that Street Fighter 4 looked like King of Fighters 12? It's not the resolution of the sprites that costs too much money, it's the huge number of frames of animation that 3rd strike had which costs too much money. Of course it results in the most fluid gorgeous animated game the world has ever known but that's the whole point. I think a lot of people have a hard time visualizing what a day in the capcom office is like for someone trying to be the producer of a new street fighter game. A bunch of people in suits sit down at a table with the one creative dude who wants to make his game and this dude has to explain to them why "yeah it costs a lot more for 2D but it'll look so sweet". "Well, Mr. Ono, 3rd strike 'looked so sweet' and we ended up in the red on that little venture, so how much 'less sweet' exactly would it be if we just go the 3D route?"

................................

its funny how people over look the fact that the parrying system had A LOT to do with the animation, which allowed it to look so beautiful and retain the fun and intense factor
That doesn't make any sense at all

[Ki Shima]

:confused:

I'm lost...

mm.. okay we'll agree to disagree, but that's not really a counter-argument.



i don't know about 'beautiful' but i'm sure parrying is easier to implement in a game that runs at 60 fps.

im not talking about actual parrying, im talking about the animation

im saying parrying complements the animation speed, for instance, look at the speed of the gameplay of this game, yes it looks beautiful, like a hi res 3rd strike, but i cant help but notice the hyper hops like in 00:33 where kyo jumps back distracting you from the speed of kims kick.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SUTaFRIJeg4


maybe im being too skeptical, but it looks like what made 3rd strike stand out is the timing of the moves coupled with the instinct and attraction of parrying.


but what do I know :rofl:

[SAPhoenix]

mm.. okay we'll agree to disagree, but that's not really a counter-argument.

So you don't agree with 3D fighters being mainstream as opposed to 2D sprite based fighters, even though there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

What I disagreed with in your post is the the following. You claimed that SF3 set a pretty high bar with it's level of 2D animation, which was correct. However, I fail to see how that bar couldn't be exceeded. If Capcom really wanted to, they could. The fact of the matter is that mainstream sells and 2D sprite based games are no longer mainstream. That ship has sailed. From a business point of view, one really can't blame Capcom for heading in this direction.

[A_Rival]

Ki Shima I agree with you about parrying contributing to the look of the game.

Parrying LOOKS awesome, and is very satisfying to do because of the aesthetic. It was a bit too intense in the first street fighter 3 (big white flash on the screen) but they toned it down in 2nd impact, making it just flashy enough to look great.

Back on topic: as for SF4 being a big hit with the mainstream, maybe it will... for a bit. However, the game is basically the same, so those who are really good at SF have already been playing this game a lot longer than anyone who'll just be getting into it, redefining the same skill gap that alienates casual gamers from fighting games today...

however, that's not really the point. If it sells well, it means we'll get more fighting games, and more risks. Ono is going for the safe bet, and although I don't really agree with it, I can't really blame him for it from a business standpoint.

[magdalenarules]

being able to "afford" to make a 2D game doesn't just mean arc systems has this many dollars in their piggy bank as of today, and it takes X amount of dollars to make a sprite based game, therefore they can afford it. arc Systems and Capcom are BUSINESSES. the point of a BUSINESS is to make money while expressing as much of your own individualism and creativity as is reasonable to not piss off your target audience and thus keep a roof over your head. In order to make money, you have to spend money producing a game, then that game has to sell so many copies and merchandise and cartoon spinoffs etc that you get a lot more money from selling it than you spent making it.

So the reason capcom can't "afford" to make a game that looks better than 3rd strike is because they assume (probably correctly) that the amount of money they would make from the game will not be substantially more than the amount of money they would spend paying people to draw that many frames of animation. This is what is meant by "capcom can't afford to make a 2D game that surpasses 3rd strike".

Obviously it is always possible to add more frames of animation, and spend 25 years developing the game, and hiring every great character designer in the world to collaborate on a 5 man tag team style versus game between marvel , DC, Capcom, SNK, and Nintendo with a 2409 character roster, and hire all the top SBO champions as play testers/balancers and surpass the previous version of any game. The point is how much would it cost, and would the profit that you get from selling the game offset that cost

[Dark Symphony]

Well...I mean Mario and Luigi seem to be pretty invulnerable these days. Smash games still sell very well despite using a lot of old character designs from like the early 80s and 90s.

Just as a general question...do you think Ryu, Ken and the other SF characters can still bring in new people like Mario, Kirby and Zelda have in the past? Just by sheer iconism? It seems people still get hype over a new Mario or Kirby game and design wise they haven't changed a whole lot over the years.

Well, people got tired of SF. It didn't maintain it's momentum like the aforementioned series'. That's something to be taken into account. I mean, Mario can ride his momentum into new fanbases. But if some garbage but mainstream hit game like Halo came out with mario-esque characters, I doubt you'd see as big of a splash.

If your popularity never really wanes like, say, comic book characters, then you don't really need to change. And even still, things do. Mario and co are, like, the exceptions. Not the rules.

I mean, if you want new players, you could always update things to appeal to them. WE, the usuals, will play it anyway, and the nostalgia bandwagoners, if they didn't get their fixes with CVS2 and CFE because they've "moved on" from 2D, will have a blast seeing at least SOMEWHAT contemporary version of their old favorites.

I'm not saying they should have changed the whole face of the game. But SOMETHING so it doesn't just seem like they're going for a 3D SSF2T aesthetically.

[Dark Symphony]

All this stuff is your opinion, and the vast majority of players are content with the designs remaining. You act like I'm in the minority, and just blind to the truth, but those characters costumes are iconic, and no one won't by the game because of dated costumes.



If you're incapable of making an argument without insulting people who disagree with you, then please shut the fuck up. Virtually nobody wants the designs changed, and you're just butt hurt and stamping your feet like a bitch cause no one agrees with you.

Dramatics don't make your weak-ass )lack of) argument any better. And if you feel insulted, well, your over-sensitivity issues sound like a personal problem.

Those character costumes are iconic... but not enough to have kept SF in the mainstream. So that's one thing there.

Now... if we go back to my original point (when you coutner-argue, you should probably keep these in mind), if they want to bring in brand new fans, then the dated (yes, dated) designs might not be the way to go. The old fans will play it anyway. The drop-offs i've talked to are kind of on the fence about the old look.

A lot of people, whilest not into SF heavily since the mid-ninties, are well aware of its continuing existence. I hear people wonder why Ryu never changes etc. etc. and while I argue against their sentiments, I figured this would be a good time to change at least SOME things. Maybe not Ryu, though.

A lot of people aren't wow'd by "STREET FIGHTER IN 3D" because they think it already happened back with the EX series. Average Joe Gamer doesn't know there's a difference. They don't know or care about who really made it or what Arika did or what.

You can try to make it sound as if i'm ranting and raving, whatever, if you're incapable of just attacking my sentiments, but the point still stands. And just because WE don't care, you know, us, the people who have been and will keep playing it anyway. But if their point is to bring in "old and new gamers alike" well, I figure aesthetics is the first way to go.

And i've talked to plenty of vets who feel the same, so let's can the "I know this many people who think otherwise" crap.

[Carmen]

I thought you could at least roll to side when you fell down in those games? Maybe I'm mistaken. Generally the games were played in a 2d plane that's true.

You roll to the side, but it has zero effect on the fight itself (unless there are down attacks of some sort that could be avoided, but even then that wouldn't be the case as the fighters always align to each other so you can't really avoid anything!) It's pretty much the same as rolling in place. The Garou games were more 3D then the early Tekken / VF games, :rofl:

[Dark Symphony]

The original SF 2 designs were never racist and only people like you would look that far into it. You basically want Capcom to change the designs of the same classic characters that were so successful and became iconic. If Nintendo ever changed Mario's design to look more "kool", "modern", "futuristic" or whatever you think is "thinking outside of the box" it probably wouldn't be as successful as the original Mario. They did it to Superman in the 90's and it didn't work. This is the same kind of thinking that just added more to the failure of SF 3. They added all these new characters and then what? Oh yeah they had to add in Ryu and Ken because people weren't liking SF 3. By Third Strike they finally added two more SF2 characters. Capcom already tried doing something different from SF 2. For SF 4 they are including the original 8 SF 2 characters and it looks like a few more new characters will be created. This is what Capcom should have done for SF 3 so more people would have noticed it.

Well, the comment wasn't supposed to be taken 100% seriously and I also used the term "borderline racist" because the designs weren't really racist. It wasn't meant to be taken 100% literally but I will defend it like it is if you want to keep things interesting.

Luckily, my point still stands regardless, since the point is that a slight revamp here and there in appearence wouldn't hurt. Regardless of the issues that arise when you take a look at the oldness of the character designs. Are they huge? No. I just see an easy avenue to add "freshness" and a more widespread appeal without sacrificing gameplay.

In fact, I think it's far superior to all these other "methods" to add to appeal by artificially giving inferior players advantages.

A few changes here and there to appeal to the new guys and not make this seem like ST part 3. It's very frusturating to hear all these copmanies talking about appealing to new players by adding things like revenge systems, rage systems and other such ridiculousness.

I saw an easy avenue to add some freshness and broader appeal. And yes, Nintendo does tweak some of it's iconic characters. Soemtimes for the better, sometimes for the worst. SSBB is coming out and we have different iterations of certain characters. Yes, the same "theme" is kept but the looks are still different.

Although it'd be cool if they gave Blanka a backwards hat and hawaiian shirt and sun glasses.





Oh yeah, I should add... character evolution didn't hurt SF3. NO one was mad that Akuma now had some gery hair in 2I. Everyone was happy to have cammy in SFA2 even though she looked (and acted) totally different and could very well have just been a new character. SF3 took a huge risk with the complete overhaul of the cast and I think it got hurt more by Capcom's seemingly lack of faith in the change, too unfamiliar of a cast in a land of familiar alternatives and a lack of availability on the more prominent consoles. Games like Tekken 3 showed that fans are willing to follow a series through massive change.

But why if I feel cheated and can just go play SFA2?

If you get my point. SF was competing with itself during those times and was struggling with oversaturation.

[Sagatryu]

1 Blanka

Keep his pants, and give him old tored shirt.

2 guile

just give him the blue jacket he had on in his SVC ending.


3 Chun Li

her police uniform should work.

4 Ken:


any of the stuff he wears in the animes and comics should work.


http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/a/sfaken.htm


http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/a/sfa2ken.htm

[Poshib]

My opinion on SF4

Although i would much rather see this game in an updated 2D art style like 3S, i've excepted the fact that the models r in 3D, even if they do look stupid IMO. That being said, my main problem with the game is the time setting. WHY THE HELL DOES THIS GAME TAKE PLACE B4 SF3? i'm extremely disappointed that this game is a prequel not only bcuz of the possibility that we may not see any 3S characters , but bcuz that all the old characters look exactly the same from SF2. i would really like to see some development in the character designs. i mean we've been waitin for this game forever and we get the same Ryu and Ken that we've been seeing 4 forever. It really would have been nice to see the characters actually age a lil or at least change the outfits or somethin.


As far as the new characters go.....eh, nuthin that has really sparked my attention. C. Viper looks ok IMO but Abel looks dumb, even his moves look stupid. About appealin to the "casual" gamer, i say it's a waste of time and effort. Casual gamers will more than likely only play this game for the first couple of months or until the competitive gamers get good enough to where the casual gamers can't win and they'll probably quit. i say competitive gaming is where the money's at bcuz that's a long term thing if the games popular and that will bring in lot's of money. Who said 3S wasn't a success? They still play that game over in Japan and over here in the US.

I feel like Capcom is lookin at SF4 in a sense of "It's SF4, so it's gonna sell."(which is true) so they do what they want with it instead of lookin at what THE FANS THAT ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND CONTINUE TO PLAY want and thus we're gettin this. It's gonna sell but probably not as much as it has the potential to. In the interviews the guy keeps sayin "we want" instead of they want.


Making the game easier only makes it worst for the lesser players in the end. There will always be lvls of skill no matter what they do to the game but by makin it easier in general, it makes it easier to b cheap(if that makes any sense to u guys). By the sound of what was said in the interviews, there will b something way more stupid than Yun Genei-Jin combos or Urien Aegis Reflector unblockables.

Im sorry but i'm just not hype about this game at all. Please don't take offense to anything that i have post. It's all just my opinion.

[pherai]

Dramatics don't make your weak-ass )lack of) argument any better. And if you feel insulted, well, your over-sensitivity issues sound like a personal problem.


No, you were resulting to insulting because I didn't agree with you by saying I couldn't think outside the box. That's fucking pompous, and just makes you come off as an ass. I can fucking imagine how Ryu would look wearing something besides his gi, and it just doesn't make me think "OOH, new players would LOVE this."


You can try to make it sound as if i'm ranting and raving, whatever, if you're incapable of just attacking my sentiments, but the point still stands. And just because WE don't care, you know, us, the people who have been and will keep playing it anyway. But if their point is to bring in "old and new gamers alike" well, I figure aesthetics is the first way to go.

And i've talked to plenty of vets who feel the same, so let's can the "I know this many people who think otherwise" crap.

"Attacking your sentiments" is pointless because you are set in your ways. We can argue back and forth over what if Capcom does x thing, how will gamers react, but neither of us can really predict any better than the other. Can you think of anything I could say that would make change your mind? I doubt it.

You've already brushed off DevilJin's points despite the fact that you have no proof people got any more tired of SF games than they have with Mario games. Just because you think SF has lost popularity because of stagnant character costumes doesn't make it true. I could just as easily say SF lost popularity because people really liked the number '2' in the title, and the correlation would be on my side, but it's obviously wrong.

You are just talking out of your ass. You don't have any basis for your argument, you just think its a logically good idea. That's fine, but just like my number 2 idea, my belief in it doesn't mean its true. I don't know who the hell these vets are, but they certainly aren't posting on these boards. If this would draw in so many players, I think more people would be requesting it, but nobody seems to care.

[the supreme]

Firstly, I think what many of you realise is that the general public dont care that this isnt a better looking version of 3S. Its new, it has characters they recognise and love and they'll be able to grasp it straight away with familiar moves. This will be a success because of FAMILIARITY...

Secondly, what we like graphics wise might not be what Joe Public likes graphics wise, we have to look outside the box and accept that. Capcom is making a game to comeback, to market and make REVENUE, NOT just to please people who live for crouch cancelling, V-ism combos and Kara throws....WE MAY AS WELL JUST GET OVER IT

Thirdly, there's no point arguing about what you DIDNT get because you're NOT getting it. Give the game a chance and play it first then you can make all the silly comments you like about how crap/unbalanced it is. Honestly, some people on this board talk like their life is about to end without knowing the full picture or even testing it out, its kinda pathetic, ITS JUST A GAME...

[Don Mack]

Nobody cares about competitive gaming except people on this site and a few others like tekkenzaibatsu, etc. Appealing solely to them would be financial suicide, and from the reaction the game has gotten from people unfamiliar with the series as well as fans back in the day that left the series, Ono did his job well.

And all this name calling over a video game is childish and stupid.

[Poshib]

Nobody cares about competitive gaming except people on this site and a few others like tekkenzaibatsu, etc. Appealing solely to them would be financial suicide, and from the reaction the game has gotten from people unfamiliar with the series as well as fans back in the day that left the series, Ono did his job well.

And all this name calling over a video game is childish and stupid.

IMO the only reason SFIV is gettin the reaction that it is.....is bcuz of how long they waited to do the game and just for the simple fact that it's actually coming out. I think every1 is to busy jumpin around bcuz it's SFIV without really lookin at it for what it is......nothin special. No1 is lookin at the fact that this game isn't really showing any development in the SF series at all IMO. The characters look exactly the same as they did in SF2 for cryin out loud. I firmly believe that people would b thinkin a lot differently about this game if it came out 3yrs after 3S.

Think about if u were extremely hungry and haven't eaten in days then someone gave u some food, how would u react? u would b so happy that u had gotten some food, dig in, and feel like it's the greatest thing ever. then. once ur able to eat again on the regular u realize that the meal u ate when u were hungry really wasn't that good. u only ate it bcuz u were hungry.
people r lookin at this game in that sense, your hungry for SF and ur gettin it but is this really the SF that u feel like u should have waited this long for?

yet again, it's only my opinion.:sweat:

[clue2025]

IMO the only reason SFIV is gettin the reaction that it is.....is bcuz of how long they waited to do the game and just for the simple fact that it's actually coming out. I think every1 is to busy jumpin around bcuz it's SFIV without really lookin at it for what it is......nothin special. No1 is lookin at the fact that this game isn't really showing any development in the SF series at all IMO. The characters look exactly the same as they did in SF2 for cryin out loud. I firmly believe that people would b thinkin a lot differently about this game if it came out 3yrs after 3S.

Think about if u were extremely hungry and haven't eaten in days then someone gave u some food, how would u react? u would b so happy that u had gotten some food, dig in, and feel like it's the greatest thing ever. then. once ur able to eat again on the regular u realize that the meal u ate when u were hungry really wasn't that good. u only ate it bcuz u were hungry.
people r lookin at this game in that sense, your hungry for SF and ur gettin it but is this really the SF that u feel like u should have waited this long for?

yet again, it's only my opinion.:sweat:

This is what I'm sayin, we've been playin 3s for 8-9 years now and we finally get somethin, but we expected so much more out of it. I'm not sayin that it's gonna be a bad game but you can do somethin better than re-release a 17 year old game that you're already re-releasing, revising, redrawing, and rebalancing on XBox Live and Playstation Network. I mean, I will admit I got into 3s because I saw Ken being played in a game I didn't know about, but you don't need EVERYONE. Example: DMC4 plays the same way but Nero kicks so much more ass than Dante, I'm sure Capcom could come up with SOMETHIN.

[Don Mack]

That makes sense in a way. I figure more risks will be taken in Street Fighter 5 after former fans and new players are drawn into the series again.

[Poshib]

That makes sense in a way. I figure more risks will be taken in Street Fighter 5 after former fans and new players are drawn into the series again.

if this "SFIV" doesn't ruin that possibility. i just hope Capcom decides to make a REAL sequel to SF3 and develop the characters a bit. I want an old karate master lookin ryu:wgrin:

[Daemos]

That makes sense in a way. I figure more risks will be taken in Street Fighter 5 after former fans and new players are drawn into the series again.


Or future versions of SF4 even. However, I agree with you, that this very safe 'marketing' strategy Ono is employing is only to get on the executives good side to perhaps allow him and the creative team to take SF to where they really want in SF5. I do feel that the lack of any sort of development and re-invention (aside from the shift from 2D to 3D) is very depressing and anti-climatic after 10 years, I have a feeling that even the story of this game will be re-hashed and will make no attempts in trying to connect and transition 2 to 3.

If SF4 fails to garner the attention the execs and Ono wants, this could potentially send SF into another (perhaps even more serious) dark age ala what happened after the commercial failure of SF3. This 'safe' strategy Ono is employing may very well backfire, after 15+ years of SF2 rehashes.

[Poshib]

Or future versions of SF4 even. However, I agree with you, that this very safe 'marketing' strategy Ono is employing is only to get on the executives good side to perhaps allow him and the creative team to take SF to where they really want in SF5. I do feel that the lack of any sort of development and re-invention (aside from the shift from 2D to 3D) is very depressing and anti-climatic after 10 years, I have a feeling that even the story of this game will be re-hashed and will make no attempts in trying to connect and transition 2 to 3.

If SF4 fails to garner the attention the execs and Ono wants, this could potentially send SF into another (perhaps even more serious) dark age ala what happened after the commercial failure of SF3. This 'safe' strategy Ono is employing may very well backfire, after 15+ years of SF2 rehashes.

my thoughts exactly. damn, 15+yrs of SF2 rehashes and here we have another 1. terrible. I would have much rather had 3S with all the original characters than what this is turnin out to b but hey that's just me:wink: imagine, the Shadoloo 4 in 3S style graphics? i bet they'd look a hell of a lot cooler than what they're gonna look like in this new SF2 remake.:sad:

[Daemos]

my thoughts exactly. damn, 15+yrs of SF2 rehashes and here we have another 1. terrible. I would have much rather had 3S with all the original characters than what this is turnin out to b but hey that's just me:wink: imagine, the Shadoloo 4 in 3S style graphics? i bet they'd look a hell of a lot cooler than what they're gonna look like in this new SF2 remake.:sad:


If SF3 had another 4-6 SF2, especially upon initial release of New Generation, I firmly believe the entire SF franchise would've ended up VERY differently, in a more positive sense I mean. SF3 would've surpassed SF2 in so many ways if it leaned back on the fact that it originated from SF2 more, because gameplay-wise I am one of those who sees SF3:3S as the pinnacle of SF gameplay. Graphically it is also IMO the best 2D fighter ever made. SF3 had so much more potential, but the marketing/creative department fucked UUUUUUUUUUUUUHP! Right now it seems like they are doing the same mistake again but in reverse, relying too much on SF2, if not completely on SF2 rather than relying too little, or not at all ala SF3. The outcome could virtually be the same as what happened to SF3. All extremes lead to the same road.

[Poshib]

If SF3 had another 4-6 SF2, especially upon initial release of New Generation, I firmly believe the entire SF franchise would've ended up VERY differently, in a more positive sense I mean. SF3 would've surpassed SF2 in so many ways if it leaned back on the fact that it originated from SF2 more, because gameplay-wise I am one of those who sees SF3:3S as the pinnacle of SF gameplay. Graphically it is also IMO the best 2D fighter ever made. SF3 had so much more potential, but the marketing/creative department fucked UUUUUUUUUUUUUHP!

yeah.....so much potential that could have been expanded in this "should not b" remake but nope. it was to much of a "risk" i suppose. i agree with everything u said about 3S. it was indeed a great(and still is) game, just not enough advertising when it needed. i just don't understand why Capcom is regressing this much for SF4. it really disappoints me.:sad:

[Gutter Trash]

I don't care much at all for cannon, I'm one of the ones who say "screw cannon". because I always wanted my old characters back.

I'm ecstatic, happy and relieved with the media and info of SF4 so far, I'm in the camp of happy campers.

[Don Mack]

I don't care much at all for cannon, I'm one of the ones who say "screw cannon". because I always wanted my old characters back.

I'm ecstatic, happy and relieved with the media and info of SF4 so far, I'm in the camp of happy campers.


Same here

[Nokato]

All I can say is that, I see this game being the catalyst for a huge dividing line between the casual gamer and "hard-core" gamers. This isn't the first time its happened, back in the day with 7-11's had SF cabinets in them, there were plenty of OG players that stopped when ST came out--some stayed on but eventually strayed with the Alpha series, which meant new players came into the competitive scene.

I think with SF4--fortunately or unfortunately (depends on which side of opposition you're on) could potentially usher in a new set of competitive players that didn't really play SF prior, while alot of the hardcore people will "hang it up" with this game. It's a common place with the SF competitive timeline at least.

[Yagami]

Nobody cares about competitive gaming except people on this site and a few others like tekkenzaibatsu, etc. Appealing solely to them would be financial suicide, and from the reaction the game has gotten from people unfamiliar with the series as well as fans back in the day that left the series, Ono did his job well.

And all this name calling over a video game is childish and stupid.

This is truth!

[Dark Symphony]

No, you were resulting to insulting because I didn't agree with you by saying I couldn't think outside the box. That's fucking pompous, and just makes you come off as an ass. I can fucking imagine how Ryu would look wearing something besides his gi, and it just doesn't make me think "OOH, new players would LOVE this."

Well, I DID specifically say that Ryu would be one that I would expect NEVER to change and be perfectly fine with it. But since you don't read thouroughly...

You should learn not to get too excited over such statements. I would think the best counter would be to demonstrate why you are NOT thinking outside the box...


"Attacking your sentiments" is pointless because you are set in your ways. We can argue back and forth over what if Capcom does x thing, how will gamers react, but neither of us can really predict any better than the other. Can you think of anything I could say that would make change your mind? I doubt it.

I am open to alternate points of view as long as they're, you know... good. Arguing is an awesome, albeit intense way to learn. Sure, one might not admit they learned something valuable in the argument when it's at hand, but you can walk away with some good info if you're introduced to GOOD alternate insight. No matter how it's presented.

You've already brushed off DevilJin's points despite the fact that you have no proof people got any more tired of SF games than they have with Mario games. Just because you think SF has lost popularity because of stagnant character costumes doesn't make it true. I could just as easily say SF lost popularity because people really liked the number '2' in the title, and the correlation would be on my side, but it's obviously wrong..

Well... Mario games are still selling helza good. And have been consistently produced since Mario 1. That's a good indication. What have you? I mean, isn't Ono going by logic when he says that he thinks bringing back the original 8 will attract the drop-offs? I don't remember him quoting numbers or figures. I remember reading that he was AIMING for a specific goal. Same deal.

You are just talking out of your ass. You don't have any basis for your argument, you just think its a logically good idea. That's fine, but just like my number 2 idea, my belief in it doesn't mean its true. I don't know who the hell these vets are, but they certainly aren't posting on these boards. If this would draw in so many players, I think more people would be requesting it, but nobody seems to care.

You say I don't have basis and that I just think it makes sense logically... LOGIC IS a solid basis for an argument, in case you didn't know. I mean, isn't Ono going by logic when he says that he thinks bringing back the original 8 will attract the drop-offs? I don't remember him quoting numbers or figures. I remember reading that he was AIMING for a specific goal. Same deal, right? Couldn't you say the same thing to him that you said to me?

I've seen people comment on the lack of change in this very topic, let alone others. It's not an end of the world issue but it still is a slight annoyance.

The reason most people here don't seem to care is because SRK is filled with people like you and I who will play SF regardless and have been looking at the original 8 as they are CONSISTENTLY since 1991. WE are just happy to get something new that has some backing to it.

What you are NOT going to see here are people who think it's more of the same and are NOT attracted by it because those people don't post on SRK. Johnny "I played that back in the day and got tired of it and 3D SF isn't new to me because I played the one that launched with the PS3 and had all these guys except honda and I don't see why this is different" Casual isn't going to be lurking on SRK just in case he needs to talk about a series he stopped playing way back in the day.

That's logic right there. And it seemed to have escaped you. You do remember that the subject matter at hand consists of those dropped off or new players they're trying to aim at, right? Why are you commenting on their input at SRK when, by definition, they wouldn't be posting here?

[Neko X]

Just MHO, the gameplay videos i have seen of the arcade cabinet (check Youtube) the game looks smooth, and well zangief is still to be feared. lol. Its the old school gameplay that i believe we all love. Just updated graphics and looks like the homework was done and it deserves an A. But until I touch the game I cant say its perfect. But looks it for sure.

[pherai]

Well, I DID specifically say that Ryu would be one that I would expect NEVER to change and be perfectly fine with it. But since you don't read thouroughly...

You should learn not to get too excited over such statements. I would think the best counter would be to demonstrate why you are NOT thinking outside the box...


Whatever dude. I can imagine all the characters in different costumes, and it doesn't change anything.



I am open to alternate points of view as long as they're, you know... good.


So my opinion is not a GOOD point of view by virtue of the fact that it disagrees with yours?



Well... Mario games are still selling helza good. And have been consistently produced since Mario 1. That's a good indication. What have you? I mean, isn't Ono going by logic when he says that he thinks bringing back the original 8 will attract the drop-offs? I don't remember him quoting numbers or figures. I remember reading that he was AIMING for a specific goal. Same deal.


You missed my point. My AIM is to bring back new players by keeping 2 in the title of the game. YOU mentioned that the SF games didn't keep their momentum, and that keeping the same costumes was not accomplishing that goal. I said not being a SF2 game was not accomplishing the goal either. Both are silly arguments.



You say I don't have basis and that I just think it makes sense logically... LOGIC IS a solid basis for an argument, in case you didn't know. I mean, isn't Ono going by logic when he says that he thinks bringing back the original 8 will attract the drop-offs? I don't remember him quoting numbers or figures. I remember reading that he was AIMING for a specific goal. Same deal, right? Couldn't you say the same thing to him that you said to me?


I said what is logical to YOU is not necessarily true. It's logical to me that I'm the most attractive man in the world, but it doesn't make it true. Logic is not always absolute, and it certainly isn't in this case. You have no credentials in marketing or game design yet you continue to use this englightened tone like I am willingly ignoring what is plainly true. Ono is an experienced game designer. His logical decisions are based on experience. You are nobody with ideas based on nothing.


I've seen people comment on the lack of change in this very topic, let alone others. It's not an end of the world issue but it still is a slight annoyance.

The reason most people here don't seem to care is because SRK is filled with people like you and I who will play SF regardless and have been looking at the original 8 as they are CONSISTENTLY since 1991. WE are just happy to get something new that has some backing to it.

What you are NOT going to see here are people who think it's more of the same and are NOT attracted by it because those people don't post on SRK. Johnny "I played that back in the day and got tired of it and 3D SF isn't new to me because I played the one that launched with the PS3 and had all these guys except honda and I don't see why this is different" Casual isn't going to be lurking on SRK just in case he needs to talk about a series he stopped playing way back in the day.

That's logic right there. And it seemed to have escaped you. You do remember that the subject matter at hand consists of those dropped off or new players they're trying to aim at, right? Why are you commenting on their input at SRK when, by definition, they wouldn't be posting here?

Saying there is a lack of change is not the same as saying "they need to make new costumes." Change for the sake of change is not what people want. You can't just change anything and yield a benefit.

Non competitive scrubs post in the SF4 forums daily. To say that all or most of the people posting on here are competitive players is foolish given the amount of shitty threads about story, hair color, eye color etc. made on a daily basis. Even if I gave you that everyone here didn't care about that stuff, neither of us have anything to back up the claim that the casual nobody's decision to buy SF4 rests on new costumes or not. You can think that this would be a good addition to the game, but quit acting like its undeniable that it will bring in many more players.

[Poshib]

i think new outfits(at least) would spice it up for the people that still play the older titles. i mean we've been waiting this long for something we've already seen. all this game has going for it now is purely the gameplay IMO.

[Roshihikari]

i think new outfits(at least) would spice it up for the people that still play the older titles. i mean we've been waiting this long for something we've already seen. all this game has going for it now is purely the gameplay IMO.

Gameplay and the graphics, that's all there is to fighting games.

[Poshib]

Gameplay and the graphics, that's all there is to fighting games.

those r the most important but without a lil story it makes the game a bit boring(look at VF). SFIV doesn't appeal to me visually at all at this point so all it has goin for it is the gameplay IMO.

[Roshihikari]

Oh yeah, and a little bit of story too. That's one of the things that made Street Fighter so great.

[Are_you_okay?!]

Story made Street Fighter so great? You get like five seconds of a picture at the end with some words scribbled under it, end of story.

Let them worry about gameplay and the graphics, they can get some monkeys together later to form this story you speak of.

[Sagatryu]

acutally that's incorrect story is just add bonus, it's the gameplay that truly makes a game great.

[capcom2d.com]

My one very close friend who I don't think has seen Street Fighter since SF2 on SNES made this only comment when I showed him videos of SF4:

"Wow so everyone is on roids now?"

Not surprised that's what came out of a non fighting fan who isn't familiar with where the series has gone, too bad that's something that couldn't be changed. And yeah he enjoyed SF2 and maybe even EX3 but the old characters in this doesn't make him more or less interested.

[Jimmy Bones]

Oh yeah, and a little bit of story too. That's one of the things that made Street Fighter so great.

The Gameplay comes first. That makes SF so great.....The Story comes secondary.
If they putted all their focus on the story than the gameplay. We'll be like, yeah the story is nice but the game sucks, and thats it.....No time to waste...

[The Switcher]

Playing street fighter for story is like watching porn for the same thing.

[Jimmy Bones]

Playing street fighter for story is like watching porn for the same thing.

:rofl: on that one

[Dark Symphony]

Whatever dude. I can imagine all the characters in different costumes, and it doesn't change anything..

That statement is useless. It doesn't refute or counter anything.




So my opinion is not a GOOD point of view by virtue of the fact that it disagrees with yours?.

no. It's not good because of statments like the aforemntionedv useless ones. Your point isn't being presented well at all. Instead, it's just ridiculousness like "I think i'm the best looking guy in the world but it doesn't mean I am" and crap like that. I really wish you'd throw some substance into your counter-points and tell me why i'm wrong instead of focusing so much on costumes (you seem to be more infatuated with them than I as they'[re merely one facet of an entire point i'm making) and telling me about why I CAN be wrong.

Why not tell me WHY i'm wrong and WHERE i'm wrong and how my suggestions would be a detriment.




You missed my point. My AIM is to bring back new players by keeping 2 in the title of the game. YOU mentioned that the SF games didn't keep their momentum, and that keeping the same costumes was not accomplishing that goal. I said not being a SF2 game was not accomplishing the goal either. Both are silly arguments..

Ok. So you take two hits. What's your point? Neither of the aforementioned examples are my argument. Stop being so obsessed with constumes. I never said that the loss of momentum that the SF series experienced is directly, 100% linked to costumes. Nor did I really propose new ones. I said some simple tweaks and updates in appearence beyond "now it's 3D" would be cool.

Except for Blanka. He needs a backwards hat and sun glasses and a Hawaiian shirt.




I said what is logical to YOU is not necessarily true. It's logical to me that I'm the most attractive man in the world, but it doesn't make it true. Logic is not always absolute, and it certainly isn't in this case. You have no credentials in marketing or game design yet you continue to use this englightened tone like I am willingly ignoring what is plainly true. Ono is an experienced game designer. His logical decisions are based on experience. You are nobody with ideas based on nothing..

Good. Now that all that immaterial information is out of the way, want to talk about the subject at hand? Do you really dismiss every logic based assumption on the grounds that logic isn't always absolute? Do you avoid making logic based decisions in your day to day because there's a chance that the logic won't hold? That sucks.

Ono is an experienced game designer. That's fine. I don't take that to mean he's perfect. I talk like I am some enlightened individual because you let me dacne all over you so everything just comes out like that.

Ed Boon is an experienced game designer. And Mortal Kombat plays like @$$.

Heavenly Sword was made by experienced game designers. That game sucked.

Capcom is filled with experienced game designers. And yet SF3 failed to catch on.

Experienced Game Designer =/= someone who always calls it right. Then again, this can apply to me, the Experienced Game Player, as well. And i'd love to here where my misconceptions are, but you're not telling me. You insist on talking about constumes and the frailty of logic.

I'm not going to play the tired "I can have my opinion" card. I believe that my opinion is well-grounded and valid. And I would love to hear why it's not.

You know... with good counter-points.


Saying there is a lack of change is not the same as saying "they need to make new costumes." Change for the sake of change is not what people want. You can't just change anything and yield a benefit..

Change for the sake of change is helza dumb. This I concede. But i'm not calling for change for the sake of change. Saying the roster didn't need to contain the original 8 isn't even calling for "change" since the original 8 weren't in SF3. In fact, going back to the WW days is actually the "change."

Calling for a change in some appearences just to freshen it up a bit isn't changing for the sake of change. Not everyone move underground after ST came out. We've been seeing these characters as is (except for Chun Li who OH NO changed clothes in Alpha) consistently since 1991. SOME things have to change. Otherwise we'd still be playing SF1, right?

Non competitive scrubs post in the SF4 forums daily. To say that all or most of the people posting on here are competitive players is foolish given the amount of shitty threads about story, hair color, eye color etc. made on a daily basis. Even if I gave you that everyone here didn't care about that stuff, neither of us have anything to back up the claim that the casual nobody's decision to buy SF4 rests on new costumes or not. You can think that this would be a good addition to the game, but quit acting like its undeniable that it will bring in many more players.

I didn't say everyone here is a competitior. I'm saying the DROP OFFS that Ono says he's trying to appeal to probably aren't surfing SRK boards for info on a game series they stopped playing since around 1995. And thus you can't relly look to SRK to provide a definite insight as to what they'd think about a new 3D SF with a bunch of SF2 characters in it that look like they did in 1991.

Now, you can focus on costumes all you want. I'm focusing on the fact that many dropped off SF2 players still play video games. They're aware of the SF Alphas and SF3s and Marvel vs and Capcom vs and SFEX's. They're not going to sit on SRK and find out why this new SF should be considered completely new and why they should ignore the SFEX series. Many people argue 'well, this is their old SF2 game but in 3D!' but that same argument could night be made about SFEX3, and in a casual players eyes, it'd be a good one.

While you're going off about costumes, which you seem to be dead set on focusing on because it's the easiest thing for youto belittle even though it's not even the point, i'm wondering about Johnny Newcomer who has to choose between Tekken's contemporary designs, SC's "cool LOTR like" designs now with more sell-out featuring Yoda and Darth Vader, or SF4's 1991 character designs and appearences.

If Ono said "i'm just trying to appeal to the avid, hardcore SF2 fan" i'd have a completely different tone. I just don't understand this whole 'bring in a bunch of old to appeal to new." And if that's what it takes, why didn't SFEX3 do it?

[blufang]

You know what people I know are saying? I myself am not a casual player (not tournament ultra hardcore either though), but everyone I know who plays fighting games at all is a casual player. All I know think back to SF2 with a dreamy look on their face full of happy memories. The thing is these players and ones who haven't played fighting games since SF2, are talking and are excited about this game. OMG Street Fighter 4 and it's in 3d! (Most don't even know about SF3 series, or SF EX) Wow Zangief, Dhalism, Blanka, Sagat!!! etc. You get the picture.
Don't ask yourself what you would prefer or what you think is best, ask yourself what would draw the most players in. Here it is.

1. 3d graphics (I personally would prefer HD 2d hand painted visuals, but I and others who think like this are in the minority, and a tiny minority it is) Face it almost every popular series from Zelda to Mario to Final Fantasy has jumped to 3d because most gamers prefer that.

2. Familiarity/nostalgia-This is a powerful thing, definitely. If Ono can make a game, that is familiar enough so that someone who hasn't played fighters since SF2 can jump in and at least have fun, that is huge. Obviously it should feel new too, but it is important to have a strong connection to what was by far the most popular series of Sf, SF2. Think of for example, SF3: 3S...great game right? Well yeah imagine someone who hasn't played fighting games since SF2 but sees this in an arcade. Wow, SF3 when did this come out! That would be the first thought, and then they would pop in some quarters/tokens...wait, who are all these characters!? I love Dhalsim, where is he? I don't see him, oh well there is Ryu, I'll try him. So then he proceeds to face off against a hardcore 3S player (let's face it very few casuals ever play or played this game), alright take this! Hadoken! (Other player parries it) WTF!!! Damn it, oh yeah take this! HADOKEN!!! (Other player parries it)...Now our poor casual player is frustrated and angry and confused. He jumps in with a roundhouse, and is parried and then eats a combo into a super and dies. He leaves the machine angry and bitter and never plays it again. This is why SF3 3S failed mainly, inaccessible, few old characters, 2d graphics (and yes they were gorgeous).

Capcom can't risk SF4 failing, so it went 3d. Yes GG series is still 2d, and does well in Japan, what about here? Try it, walk up to someone on the street, or a classmate, or whatever..."So what do you think of Guilty Gear?" The response 99 times out of 100 will be "Excuse me? Is that a new show? What are you talking about?" Capcom is also smart in fitting all 8 world warriors, Sagat, Balrog, maybe even Vega (not confirmed)...so anyone who played SF2 back in the day, can pop in the game and find their favorite to play as. As long as they can get the magical balance that they did in the original SF2 series of making it easily accessible yet having much to offer for the hardcore, then it will be a huge success I believe. As some others said, it is about $$$ and that means attracting as many people as possible.

[Kataklysmic]

snip

Seriously, you should be in the green.
I'm getting the same reaction from everyone I know too. And the applause for this game at WC08 was fuckin' massive.

[Dark Symphony]

You know what people I know are saying? I myself am not a casual player (not tournament ultra hardcore either though), but everyone I know who plays fighting games at all is a casual player. All I know think back to SF2 with a dreamy look on their face full of happy memories. The thing is these players and ones who haven't played fighting games since SF2, are talking and are excited about this game. OMG Street Fighter 4 and it's in 3d! (Most don't even know about SF3 series, or SF EX) Wow Zangief, Dhalism, Blanka, Sagat!!! etc. You get the picture.
Don't ask yourself what you would prefer or what you think is best, ask yourself what would draw the most players in. Here it is.

1. 3d graphics (I personally would prefer HD 2d hand painted visuals, but I and others who think like this are in the minority, and a tiny minority it is) Face it almost every popular series from Zelda to Mario to Final Fantasy has jumped to 3d because most gamers prefer that.

2. Familiarity/nostalgia-This is a powerful thing, definitely. If Ono can make a game, that is familiar enough so that someone who hasn't played fighters since SF2 can jump in and at least have fun, that is huge. Obviously it should feel new too, but it is important to have a strong connection to what was by far the most popular series of Sf, SF2. Think of for example, SF3: 3S...great game right? Well yeah imagine someone who hasn't played fighting games since SF2 but sees this in an arcade. Wow, SF3 when did this come out! That would be the first thought, and then they would pop in some quarters/tokens...wait, who are all these characters!? I love Dhalsim, where is he? I don't see him, oh well there is Ryu, I'll try him. So then he proceeds to face off against a hardcore 3S player (let's face it very few casuals ever play or played this game), alright take this! Hadoken! (Other player parries it) WTF!!! Damn it, oh yeah take this! HADOKEN!!! (Other player parries it)...Now our poor casual player is frustrated and angry and confused. He jumps in with a roundhouse, and is parried and then eats a combo into a super and dies. He leaves the machine angry and bitter and never plays it again. This is why SF3 3S failed mainly, inaccessible, few old characters, 2d graphics (and yes they were gorgeous).

Capcom can't risk SF4 failing, so it went 3d. Yes GG series is still 2d, and does well in Japan, what about here? Try it, walk up to someone on the street, or a classmate, or whatever..."So what do you think of Guilty Gear?" The response 99 times out of 100 will be "Excuse me? Is that a new show? What are you talking about?" Capcom is also smart in fitting all 8 world warriors, Sagat, Balrog, maybe even Vega (not confirmed)...so anyone who played SF2 back in the day, can pop in the game and find their favorite to play as. As long as they can get the magical balance that they did in the original SF2 series of making it easily accessible yet having much to offer for the hardcore, then it will be a huge success I believe. As some others said, it is about $$$ and that means attracting as many people as possible.




Which is why I wonder why they overlook not only completely new fans but fans who have dropped off but didn't hide under a rock after ST....

I think there could have been a medium acheived instead of going the full ST route. As far as appealing to current fans and some of the drop offs who completely stopped paying attention to SF, I think they are good to go.

I figure, if you're making it from scratch, freshen it up a bit. See: Chun Li in SFA, Chun Li in SF3TS and Chun Li in SF4. They did good with her as far as some aestehtics go in SF4. So why do Ken and Ryu need to have the same falling animation as SF3? And why do they share one?

Small wonders but I still wonder nonetheless...

[Nokato]

Blufang is pretty spot on about how the average gamer's POV in the US...I wish it wasn't like that in the States but that's just how the industry is currently...

[Shinkuu Tatsumaki]

Which is why I wonder why they overlook not only completely new fans but fans who have dropped off but didn't hide under a rock after ST....

I think there could have been a medium acheived instead of going the full ST route. As far as appealing to current fans and some of the drop offs who completely stopped paying attention to SF, I think they are good to go.

I figure, if you're making it from scratch, freshen it up a bit. See: Chun Li in SFA, Chun Li in SF3TS and Chun Li in SF4. They did good with her as far as some aestehtics go in SF4. So why do Ken and Ryu need to have the same falling animation as SF3? And why do they share one?

Small wonders but I still wonder nonetheless...

Going from 2d visuals to 3d visuals is pretty fresh to me.